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Boreanna	Posted - 2010.04.08 12:41:00 - [1] I haven't been playing long, but I've discussed this with people who have been playing for years. It seems the problem started when probing was changed. For those of you who don't follow me, I'm referring to people probing you down, going into your mission and getting whatever item you need to complete it, then ransoming it to you for whatever they want to charge. If you don't pay, you will have to quit the mission and take a faction hit. Sure, we need piracy. The game wouldn't be fun without it. Take my money, sure. You're a pirate that's what you do. Some day when I grow up, I may want to be a pirate. THIS practice however takes away peoples ability to make money and is a game flaw that needs to be corrected. Most of the seasoned players I've talked to no longer do missions for that reason and I don't blame em. No one should be able to ruin someone's STANDINGS.That's just wrong. If probing someone into a mission can't or won't be changed, how about changing the items to things like 10 militants.Something cheap so that it's more about being flagged for having killed the final ship(s). There needs to be at least missions as a safe haven for making money and standings so you can get more ships to throw in the meat grinder. If you can't even do that, you can't play.
Boomershoot Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.04.08 12:44:00 - [2] I agree with OP. Every mission should have a mission-specific item to turn down to complete the mission.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.04.08 12:45:00 - [3] This is only a problem in heavily overpopulated mission hub systems. If you run missions for any agent that's a little less "crowded", you will notice that this "problem" practically vanishes. Also, you have the choice of simply turning down missions where you have to bring back "specific object X" if for some obscure reason you can't be bothered to leave the hub system. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Julius Rigel	Posted - 2010.04.08 12:45:00 - [4] Originally by: Boreanna There needs to be at least missions as a safe haven for making money and standings so you can get more ships to throw in the meat grinder. If you can't even do that, you can't play. There are, they are called courier missions. Of course, any time you undock, you run the risk of meeting another player. That's one of the integral design features of EVE I think. If you dislike playing with other people so much, there's always Tetris on your gameboy or something.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2010.04.08 12:45:00 - [5] Edited by: Bibbleibble on 08/04/2010 12:45:33 Of course, when you're whining in order to take away someone's way of making money, that's all fair and good... But if they do it to you, that's unfair! Am I the only one seeing the hypocrisy here? Oh, and because it's relevant, this.
Mey Alman Jonferson Space Dynamics Division	Posted - 2010.04.08 12:46:00 - [6] How about an RP solution: Agent: Complete Mission, Abandon Mission, * took the Item Game checks if * really has the item (Agents seem to have connections :) ) faction hit for *** for interfering with state matters --> mission complete (secret agents get the item back)
Boomershoot Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.04.08 12:47:00 - [7] Originally by: Mey Alman How about an RP solution: Agent: Complete Mission, Abandon Mission, * took the Item Game checks if * really has the item (Agents seem to have connections :) ) faction hit for *** for interfering with state matters --> mission complete (secret agents get the item back) Station Trade
eliminator2 Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.08 13:02:00 - [8] so you want less risk for missions? first it was the lofty scam that was nerfed now you wnat mission thieves to be nerfed? ----------------------------------------------- I met Eliminator1..... I chewed it up, and spat it out. Now, he is my minion. I kill miners and mission runners people say, I call them target pra
Schani Kratnorr x13 IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.08 13:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Boreanna I haven't been playing long, but I've discussed this with people who have been playing for years. It seems the problem started when probing was changed. For those of you who don't follow me, I'm referring to people probing you down, going into your mission and getting whatever item you need to complete it, then ransoming it to you for whatever they want to charge. That is just piracy. Originally by: Boreanna If you don't pay, you will have to quit the mission and take a faction hit. Sure, we need piracy. The game wouldn't be fun without it. Take my money, sure. You're a pirate that's what you do. Some day when I grow up, I may want to be a pirate. I think you should start now, and leave the NPC agents alone. Originally by: Boreanna THIS practice however takes away peoples ability to make money and is a game flaw that needs to be corrected. Why though? You do not provide a valid reason. It does not in any way inflinge on anyones ability to earn ISK. They should attempt to adjust their game play to reduce the chances of being robbed. Someone pointed this out already, and they are correct. Go somewhere else and do missions there instead. Originally by: Boreanna Most of the seasoned players I've talked to no longer do missions for that reason and I don't blame em. Why mention this? The reason most seasoned players do not do mission is because they are bored with them - but that is another discussion altogether. Originally by: Boreanna No one should be able to ruin someone's STANDINGS.That's just wrong. Why though? It is not like anyone is systematically ruining everyones game. These thieves are simply preying on the weak. The habitual agent grinders who blatantly refuse to relocate will succumb to habitual thieves. Originally by: Boreanna If probing someone into a mission can't or won't be changed, how about changing the items to things like 10 militants.Something cheap so that it's more about being flagged for having killed the final ship(s). I do not get it. Why would you change probing? If you mean "change the missions so it is impossible for others to interact with the missions runner," then I am afraid that would go against the fundamentals of EVE (sandbox, etc.) Originally by: Boreanna There needs to be at least missions as a safe haven for making money and standings so you can get more ships to throw in the meat grinder. If you can't even do that, you can't play. I am tempted.... must resist.... arrgh! WoW instances THAT way -> (stuff can I have?)
Abrazzar	Posted - 2010.04.08 13:16:00 - [10] Mission theft should work like this: You scan down a mission runner at a mission location and manage to fill the mission objective before the mission runner, either by blowing up more ships (bounty wise) in a kill mission or acquiring the mission objective item. If that happens, the agent will contact you and offer you the reward and the mission runner will end up empty handed. This would be mission theft. Everything else is just bawbawbaw. --------

Sturmwolke	Posted - 2010.04.08 13:31:00 - [11] Stealing's getting old. The new in thing which is fairly recent (after the salvage nerf) is ninja missioning. They come in and provide additional dps against your mission NPCs
Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2010.04.08 14:11:00 - [12] Originally by: eliminator2 first it was the lofty scam that was nerfed now you wnat mission thieves to be nerfed? How can you compare that? Against the lofty, there was no possible defense. Against someone stealing a mission item, there is at least in theory the option to kill him afterwards.
Gunnanmon Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.04.08 14:29:00 - [13] Edited by: Gunnanmon on 08/04/2010 14:31:09 Originally by: Schani Kratnorr inflinge I need to look this word up. Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2010.04.08 14:35:00 - [14] Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind Against the lofty, there was no possible defense. Sure there was...intense paranoia of anyone who offers to help. Originally by: GM Horse I've sadly misplaced my magic "find farmers in ravens" button.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.04.08 14:45:00 - [15] Edited by: Serpents smile on 08/04/2010 14:50:54 Originally by: Boreanna Most of the seasoned players I've talked to no longer do missions for that reason and I don't blame em. Pulling that out of yer sleeve ain't ya? Please, do name a few. Must say I had it happen once to my main, and lo and behold it happened 1 jump from a mission hub. My damsel (in even more distress now) was nicked away from me. Was offered a 5 mil contract to get her back, told the guy I rather take the standing hit (I don't make deals with "terrorists") and instantly moved away from the mission hub. Never ever saw this happen again. And if it would, so what? After all this mission whoring I have more then enough standing to waste. Working as intended. Edit: Quote: There needs to be at least missions as a safe haven for making money and standings so you can get more ships to throw in the meat grinder. If you can't even do that, you can't play. You know what? Lets make them instances! Your own privi combat zone like in that game I'm not allowed to write down here. FUN!!!
Savatar Mei	Posted - 2010.04.08 14:46:00 - [16] wont the mission respawn during downtime? not to sure tbh, sometimes the mission item can be bought on the market...
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.04.08 14:52:00 - [17] Originally by: Boreanna Most of the seasoned players I've talked to no longer do missions for that reason and I don't blame em. Utter bull**** strikes your credibility for wrecking damage. Your thread is out of control
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.04.08 14:56:00 - [18] Originally by: Savatar Mei wont the mission respawn during downtime? not to sure tbh, sometimes the mission item can be bought on the market... Once the mission objective has been cleared it will not re spawn. And you'll not find a damsel in distress on the market floor. (cough)
Kuar Z'thain Fraser's Finest	Posted - 2010.04.08 15:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Boreanna Some day when I grow up, I may want to be a pirate. This made me
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.08 15:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Serpents smile Originally by: Savatar Mei wont the mission respawn during downtime? not to sure tbh, sometimes the mission item can be bought on the market... Once the mission objective has been cleared it will not re spawn. And you'll not find a damsel in distress on the market floor. (cough) You can petition to have the mission reset though, there have been times where I've managed to lose/trash a needed item for a mission, I tell this to a GM, he resets the mission, problem solved. As for the OP's problem: Change mission running systems. Seriously. I've been running missions for a long, long time and I've encountered a total of 2 ninja salvagers in the last 6 months, and not once had a thief get a needed mission item. Your problem is that you're mission running in the motsu or dodixie area, don't do that. And I hate to break this to you, but eve's designed specifically to make it possible to stop other people from making money. Gatecamp a system and haulers can't get through, blow up a jump bridge and people can't use their shortcuts to move their loot, sit next to a miner and steal his ore and you severely tank the isk he can make. That's eve, if you don't like it, there are many, many other games that are more carebear oriented out there.

Varesk Gallente Maelstrom Crew Underworld Excavators	Posted - 2010.04.08 15:41:00 - [21] Edited by: Varesk on 08/04/2010 15:42:40 Originally by: Boreanna THIS practice however takes away peoples ability to make money and is a game flaw that needs to be corrected. Most of the seasoned players I've talked to no longer do missions for that reason and I don't blame em. No one should be able to ruin someone's STANDINGS.That's just wrong. If probing someone into a mission can't or won't be changed, how about changing the items to things like 10 militants.Something cheap so that it's more about being flagged for having killed the final ship(s). There needs to be at least missions as a safe haven for making money and standings so you can get more ships to throw in the meat grinder. If you can't even do that, you can't play. one mission item is not preventing you from making isk, you made your isk from the bounties and slavage. the standing hit you take for not completing one mission isnt going to kill you. either pay the ninja guy or move on. your mission safe haven is high sec, its not 100 percent safe, buts its the safest you will get in EVE.
Eelis Kiy Gallente Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2010.04.08 15:55:00 - [22] 1. Welcome to Eve 2. try a petition 3. run missions in quieter systems d. steal the item off someone elses mission 5. buy the item off contracts 6. drop the mission and take a new one 7. ?????? 8. Profit? ----------------------------- >>where the frack is my ship?<<
eliminator2 Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.08 16:35:00 - [23] Originally by: Cyberman Mastermind Originally by: eliminator2 first it was the lofty scam that was nerfed now you wnat mission thieves to be nerfed? How can you compare that? Against the lofty, there was no possible defense. Against someone stealing a mission item, there is at least in theory the option to kill him afterwards. actually there was against lofty scam dnt join there gang WALLA simple ----------------------------------------------- I met Eliminator1..... I chewed it up, and spat it out. Now, he is my minion. I kill miners and mission runners people say, I call them target pra
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.08 16:35:00 - [24] I have no issue with this at all or in fact anything that interferes with mission runners. If they (we) insist on staying in one place, which by the way pays terrible rewards and LP compared to the same mission in other places, then that is a decision with should have consequences. I have noticed CCP, rightly, do allow mechanics which exploit the lemming mentality we have in this game. There is a reason why scanning became a lot easier (other than WH's) and the sig radius bonus was removed from missions. That moves the responsibility to the mission runner as it should. I realise the op is talking about standings only but really it's all avoidable and the hit very small anyway. Its only if you do it twice in four hours it gets big.
Lexx Khadar Minmatar Tourian Guard	Posted - 2010.04.08 16:46:00 - [25] Edited by: Lexx Khadar on 08/04/2010 16:47:08 Nothing needs to be done with Mission "thieves". Unless its in your cargo hold its at risk. Deal with it. Missions in hi sec are a safe haven for making isk. There needs to be even more risk in my opinion.
Gilm	Posted - 2010.04.08 17:01:00 - [26] I had a fun experience with a Ninja Salvager in a L4 last night. I'm in the second room of my mission when I see a catalyst show up as I was just finishing up the last piece of salvage in the room. The catalyst moves into the third room, which I haven't even touched yet. We start some fun banter in Local, he claiming to be new to EVE and all. I finally get back to the gate and warp into the third room. I clear out the initial group and salvage like 4 out of 5. I think the 'Ninja' managed to get one. And then, I wait. And wait some more. More banter, he threatens to bump me into aggro range, so I orbit him. He then moves on to aggro the rats himself. Now this is where the fun starts. There were still a few frigs out there. And they were the Warp Scramble kind. I pull my drones, and watch him pop, proceed to clear the mission, salvage my wrecks, and his. I had to run back with my indy to pick up some of the larger pieces of loot and managed to find about 5 mil worth of stuff in the 'Ninja's' can. I take it, warp back, dock up for 15 minutes. It was a fun experience for me. Wish it would happen to more Ninjas!
Desdemona Neptune	Posted - 2010.04.08 17:11:00 - [27] Partially agree with OP. This is related to ninja salvaging, about which there have been numerous threads and debates. There is a difference however, in terms of game/story logic: Ninja salvagers scan down your ship, warp to it, and discover wrecks floating in space -- which, according to the "law" of New Eden, belong to no-one and can be salvaged by whoever gets there first. But what story logic supports stealing mission rewards? The mission was given to an individual pilot, by an agent; some of them are even specifically written as "secret" this or that. So how would another pilot, warping onto a scanned-down ship, know that a non-descript cargo can or janitor or whatever is worth ransoming? I'm a firm believer in the "sandbox" concept of EVE; while I think salvage ninjas are perhaps the lamest people in EVE, I also recognize that what they're doing is completely legit according to the rules of the game. But stealing npc items or characters required for completing missions seems like a borderline exploit -- certainly it's not what CCP had in mind; while it's still "allowed," i.e. CONCORD doesn't show up and waste you for doing it, I think this is a game design oversight, not an intention, and should be corrected.
Bongo Debbie Minmatar Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.04.08 17:16:00 - [28] Missions are boring and not a good way of making money. The only advantage I can see is to gain access to good locator agents. Funny that it's always those that blame everyone else for their own failings that whine the loudest and demand the most changes just to suit their selfish views. Learn to adapt, and realise that your opinion is not necessarily the right one. ----
Herr Wilkus	Posted - 2010.04.08 17:36:00 - [29] If somebody comes into your mission and steals your mission item you are allowed to pop them. Lock up the invader when they enter the mission. If they steal your mission item, warp scramble them and open fire. Concord will not intervene because they are flagged. You may even get a KM out of the deal. So...whats the problem again?
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.04.08 17:39:00 - [30] Edited by: Serpents smile on 08/04/2010 17:39:10 Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Serpents smile Originally by: Savatar Mei wont the mission respawn during downtime? not to sure tbh, sometimes the mission item can be bought on the market... Once the mission objective has been cleared it will not re spawn. And you'll not find a damsel in distress on the market floor. (cough) You can petition to have the mission reset though, there have been times where I've managed to lose/trash a needed item for a mission, I tell this to a GM, he resets the mission, problem solved. Well then it seems it depends on the GM who handles your case, which looks inconsistent to me. Because, I did petition my stolen damsel in the faint hope that it being stolen from me was a bad thing, but my GM response was something like: "sorry cannot do anything, you better fight over her, she's one pretty damsel, have fun." Originally by: Bongo Debbie Missions are boring and not a good way of making money. I agree with the boring part but what the heck do you mean with the rest of that part I quoted? You are so, dead, wrong.

I3igJo House CHOAM Honourable Templum of Alcedonia	Posted - 2010.04.08 17:44:00 - [31] I think the best way to avoid them is to do missions somewhere else, at quieter space. Piracy is piracy. that's the beautful part of this game where other game fail. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Adida
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.04.08 17:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Herr Wilkus If somebody comes into your mission and steals your mission item you are allowed to pop them. Lock up the invader when they enter the mission. If they steal your mission item, warp scramble them and open fire. Concord will not intervene because they are flagged. You may even get a KM out of the deal. So...whats the problem again? Uhm, until you open the can the mission item is in, it's fair game to anybody who enters the dead space complex. When you enter the mission there is nothing, repeat nothing, that is flagged as yours, until you perform an action on it. Stealing loot from ships you shot however gets you flagged, but stealing the mission item, not that I'm aware off.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.08 17:50:00 - [33] Dammit. I hate arriving in a thread when all the good arguments have already been made. Anyway: No. OP presents no useful reason why this needs to be changed. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
tribalfreak	Posted - 2010.04.08 17:54:00 - [34] me being a mission runner, you know what i would do? simply wait until the next day, by whitch time, the target would have respawned. (they DO reappear after maintenance right?). no there's no denying that something like this would be a real pain, but with 6 days to beat the mission, i doubt your luck would be THAT bad to have it happen to you 6 times. of course you lose your time bonus but i rather lose my bonus than my standings.
Skex Relbore	Posted - 2010.04.08 17:58:00 - [35] Originally by: Tippia Dammit. I hate arriving in a thread when all the good arguments have already been made. Anyway: No. OP presents no useful reason why this needs to be changed. I think that if you aren't in the gang with the person who has the mission then taking the completion item should set an agression flag so that the mission runner at least has the option of fighting for their property. Not that I expect you to agree since you seem to object to any changes that allow the victims a chance to fight back.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.08 18:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Skex Relbore I think that if you aren't in the gang with the person who has the mission then taking the completion item should set an agression flag so that the mission runner at least has the option of fighting for their property. Not that I expect you to agree since you seem to object to any changes that allow the victims a chance to fight back. If the thief could get the item, then so could the mission runner – if it was so important to him, then why didn't he go and get it already? In other words, no I don't object to giving them a chance to fight back – in fact, I think they already do, and have chosen not to. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Boomershoot Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.04.08 18:04:00 - [37] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Serpents smile Originally by: Savatar Mei wont the mission respawn during downtime? not to sure tbh, sometimes the mission item can be bought on the market... Once the mission objective has been cleared it will not re spawn. And you'll not find a damsel in distress on the market floor. (cough) You can petition to have the mission reset though, there have been times where I've managed to lose/trash a needed item for a mission, I tell this to a GM, he resets the mission, problem solved. Exploiting the Petition System 101 ITT. If the mission item is offered you back you should not get your mission reset. That's all.
I3igJo House CHOAM Honourable Templum of Alcedonia	Posted - 2010.04.08 18:06:00 - [38] Originally by: tribalfreak me being a mission runner, you know what i would do? simply wait until the next day, by whitch time, the target would have respawned. (they DO reappear after maintenance right?). no there's no denying that something like this would be a real pain, but with 6 days to beat the mission, i doubt your luck would be THAT bad to have it happen to you 6 times. of course you lose your time bonus but i rather lose my bonus than my standings. That's the best solution IMO. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Adida
Serpents smile	Posted - 2010.04.08 18:06:00 - [39] Originally by: tribalfreak me being a mission runner, you know what i would do? simply wait until the next day, by whitch time, the target would have respawned. (they DO reappear after maintenance right?). no there's no denying that something like this would be a real pain, but with 6 days to beat the mission, i doubt your luck would be THAT bad to have it happen to you 6 times. of course you lose your time bonus but i rather lose my bonus than my standings. (Sigh) Somehow I feel I've been drifting through space for nearly 50 years and IQ has suddenly dropped. You do not need to wait an whole day, just log back in after DT, that is **IF the mission objective hasn't been taken/ shot/ gotten close to** (think that sums up the narrowness down what you can do in missions). Because if it has, the mission is completed whether or not you or someone else, got the item, shot the thing, got near to a certain point, that completed the mission.
Aqriue	Posted - 2010.04.08 18:19:00 - [40] When dealing with ninja's and theives, your best option is: 1. Check DScan often 2. As soon as you see probes, move down a size (450 million kms 3au, 300 million 2 au) 3. You got company visiting. Clean up after youself (pop wrecks/mission item if to far) 4. ??? 5. PROFIT!!! You just wasted valuable time that ninja spent scanning you down. I love watching ninjas try to rush to a single wreck 50kms away while I worker on another BS, then pop it as they get to it denying them the salvage. They then try to get to second wreck you just made, pop it as they get to it . Rinse and repeat as you make that ninja dance like a puppet on strings . Never pay ransoms for mission items they stole, show them how unprofitable it is to scan you down for a mission that you can easily abandoned and recoup the standing back with another 3 from the same agent netting more bounty in the process.

Skex Relbore	Posted - 2010.04.08 18:31:00 - [41] Edited by: Skex Relbore on 08/04/2010 18:32:36 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Skex Relbore I think that if you aren't in the gang with the person who has the mission then taking the completion item should set an agression flag so that the mission runner at least has the option of fighting for their property. Not that I expect you to agree since you seem to object to any changes that allow the victims a chance to fight back. If the thief could get the item, then so could the mission runner û if it was so important to him, then why didn't he go and get it already? In other words, no I don't object to giving them a chance to fight back û in fact, I think they already do, and have chosen not to. Yes because it's such a fair race between a battleship and a frigate stealing your mission item. The fact is that sometimes it is nessesary to travel to the mission completion item prior to picking it up. So no you do not believe in the right of the victim to fight back. You're solutions are always carebear "just salvage faster" "just loot faster" Why can't it be blow them the F up. Yeah they might come back for me in their PVP fit uber ship so effing what? at least I get to choose whether or not to take the chance rather than letting the theives hide behind Concords skirts. Ransoming is an unlawful act taking a mission completion item is interfering with someone doing completing a contractual arangement. When A corporation hires you in EVE to say "go rescue a damsel" or go retrieve our Quafe recipee from these criminals you are engaged in a legally sanctioned activity. The person who swoops in at the last minute and snatches the item/damsel is no different from the criminals you were contracted to retrieve the item from in the first place and as such should not be granted any more protection by the authorities (Concord) than were the original theives (rats). Now I can see Concord saying "no we're not going to blow up the theif" that's not what they do but they shouldn't defend the theif just as they don't defend an ore theif or anyone else engaged in a criminal act. To all the folks who say you should shoot them have fun when Concord blows your ship out from under you (and you still have to pay the ransom to get the item) and no you can't go in after downtime and do it again because the mission will be flagged complete and won't respawn. There is only one damsel while more pirates might be brought in tomorrow to defend their facilities if you fail to complete the mission objective once she's rescued that she doesn't majically respawn the next day. As I said I support the ability and right of the missionrunner to defend their livelyhood and fight back against theives as they so choose. So putting the exact same damned flag on mission completion items/containers as every other effing loot canister in the mission space makes perfect effing sense. If you complete the nesesary action to make the item available it should be flagged as your property and if someone comes along and picks it up they are a theif and can be dealt with in the same manner as somoene who comes and loots your wrecks.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.08 18:35:00 - [42] Originally by: Skex Relbore Yes because it's such a fair race between a battleship and a frigate stealing your mission item. Pretty much, yes, seeing as how the battleship is in far better control over where and when the thing will appear… …oh, and the fact that no-one is forcing you to use a battleship. Quote: You're solutions are always carebear "just salvage faster" "just loot faster" Why can't it be blow them the F up. Because to maintain parity, you'd have to allow the thieves to blow the mission-runner up as well, and realistically, this is not something mission-runners want. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Skex Relbore	Posted - 2010.04.08 18:58:00 - [43] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Skex Relbore Yes because it's such a fair race between a battleship and a frigate stealing your mission item. Pretty much, yes, seeing as how the battleship is in far better control over where and when the thing will appearà àoh, and the fact that no-one is forcing you to use a battleship. Quote: You're solutions are always carebear "just salvage faster" "just loot faster" Why can't it be blow them the F up. Because to maintain parity, you'd have to allow the thieves to blow the mission-runner up as well, and realistically, this is not something mission-runners want. No you wouldn't. Because parity exists based on the fact that if the mission runner were to steel something from the mission invader then they'd be commiting a criminal act and would then surender their Concord protection. There is parity because the rules are consistent for all parties. If you steal you are flagged as a criminal and the agreived party has been granted the right to take corrective action. If the agrieved party takes such action the theif is allowed their right to self defense and won't be concorded for retaliating. The situation as it stands now completely favors the mission theif and leaves the mission runner no recourse other than to try to make sure that they are always with in loot range of the mission completion item when they complete said mission or to pay the ransom (which often is far in excess of the value of the mission to begin with).
Hakaru Ishiwara Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.04.08 19:00:00 - [44] Originally by: Aqriue When dealing with ninja's and theives, your best option is: 1. Check DScan often 2. As soon as you see probes, move down a size (450 million kms 3au, 300 million 2 au) 3. You got company visiting. Clean up after youself (pop wrecks/mission item if to far) 4. ??? 5. PROFIT!!! You just wasted valuable time that ninja spent scanning you down. I love watching ninjas try to rush to a single wreck 50kms away while I worker on another BS, then pop it as they get to it denying them the salvage. They then try to get to second wreck you just made, pop it as they get to it . Rinse and repeat as you make that ninja dance like a puppet on strings . Never pay ransoms for mission items they stole, show them how unprofitable it is to scan you down for a mission that you can easily abandoned and recoup the standing back with another 3 from the same agent netting more bounty in the process. This. I love it. May I also add that warping out of the mission site and letting the ninja ship grab aggro from the NPC spawns is delicious. 'Oh, your tank just left the building and your shields just evaporated?'
Bongo Debbie Minmatar Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.04.08 19:04:00 - [45] Originally by: Serpents smile Originally by: Bongo Debbie Missions are boring and not a good way of making money. I agree with the boring part but what the heck do you mean with the rest of that part I quoted? You are so, dead, wrong. I mean there are far better ways of making ISK than grinding missions. It's a subpar income in my opinion. ----
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.08 19:41:00 - [46] Originally by: Skex Relbore There is parity because the rules are consistent for all parties. Exactly. So why do you want to add imparity? Why do you want to give mission runners an advantage they don't particularly need? Quote: The situation as it stands now completely favors the mission theif How so? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Alaura Aquila Minmatar JOKAS Industries	Posted - 2010.04.08 20:01:00 - [47] Originally by: Abrazzar Mission theft should work like this: You scan down a mission runner at a mission location and manage to fill the mission objective before the mission runner, either by blowing up more ships (bounty wise) in a kill mission or acquiring the mission objective item. If that happens, the agent will contact you and offer you the reward and the mission runner will end up empty handed. This would be mission theft. Everything else is just bawbawbaw. I like this idea... would be a nice twist, but the database would probably explode handling all the new data, since it seems unstable as it is.
Skex Relbore	Posted - 2010.04.08 20:11:00 - [48] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Skex Relbore There is parity because the rules are consistent for all parties. Exactly. So why do you want to add imparity? Why do you want to give mission runners an advantage they don't particularly need? Quote: The situation as it stands now completely favors the mission theif How so? It seems I failed to properly communicate. If things were changed to make looting a mission objective a criminal act then there would be parity because the consequences are the same for commiting a criminal act. As it stands now there is no parity because the theif in this case is being granted protection from the consequences of his actions. What is silly is your demand that both criminals and legal actors should be treated identically. That's not the way things normally are done. The mission thief has invaded a mission with the sole purpose of interfering with the mission runners ability to complete his contract. They are the agressor in this sitaution they are the ones who are in violation of the law by engaging in a crimial act. Engaging in a criminal act has different consequences than acting to complete a legitimate contract. Pirates and theives are by definition criminals and it is not at all unreasonable that they should be treated as such. Just because these are acceptable activities within the game mechanics does not mean that the choice to engage in criminal activities should be protected from consequence. In too many cases in this game criminal activity is protected and that is simply unreasonable. People even 20,000 years from now would not accept such a situation. And it break immersion when such a silly situation exists. We have a universe where crime is rampant and individual actors will launch suicide attacks against industrial and transport crafts yet in this hostile environment the manufacturers of these ships have taken no steps to beef these vessels up? Allowing criminal behaviour as a valid playstyle is one thing, rigging the rules to favor that playstyle over all others is what is unreasonable. In too many cases in this game those who behave like normal well adjusted human animals are put at a disadvantage to the sociopaths. This is just makes no sense. Societies take steps to protect themselves from such behaviors that's why we have prisons and assylums and police forces. Flimsy industrial ships which enable near cost free suicide ganking. Concord providing protection for activities that any normal human being would consider crimial. If this were a real universe the industrial ships would be armed and armored to the teeth. They'd have huge tanks and plenty of drones to defend themselves, They'd definitely be tough enough to hold together long enough for help to arive. Hell you can't even escort these craft because they aren't beefy enough to live long eough for assistance to be granted. High sec is supposed to be a safer place for those who are in compliance with the law it is perfectly reasonable that the mechanics in these systems should favor those who do not engage in criminal behavior. Right now where is the parity of a consequence for the mission thief? As long as they do not loot anything other than the mission objective they recieve concord protection the person who is facing loss of standings and income unless they surender to the blackmail has no recourse if they attempt to destroy the theif they will loose their ship. if they refuse to pay the ransom they will loss faction standing with the agent they are working for which will reduce their potential income. What negative consequences to the theif? None.
Gottii Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2010.04.08 20:25:00 - [49] Originally by: Skex Relbore Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Skex Relbore There is parity because the rules are consistent for all parties. Exactly. So why do you want to add imparity? Why do you want to give mission runners an advantage they don't particularly need? Quote: The situation as it stands now completely favors the mission theif How so? It seems I failed to properly communicate. If things were changed to make looting a mission objective a criminal act then there would be parity because the consequences are the same for commiting a criminal act. As it stands now there is no parity because the theif in this case is being granted protection from the consequences of his actions. What is silly is your demand that both criminals and legal actors should be treated identically. That's not the way things normally are done. The mission thief has invaded a mission with the sole purpose of interfering with the mission runners ability to complete his contract. They are the agressor in this sitaution they are the ones who are in violation of the law by engaging in a crimial act. Engaging in a criminal act has different consequences than acting to complete a legitimate contract. Pirates and theives are by definition criminals and it is not at all unreasonable that they should be treated as such. Just because these are acceptable activities within the game mechanics does not mean that the choice to engage in criminal activities should be protected from consequence. In too many cases in this game criminal activity is protected and that is simply unreasonable. People even 20,000 years from now would not accept such a situation. And it break immersion when such a silly situation exists. We have a universe where crime is rampant and individual actors will launch suicide attacks against industrial and transport crafts yet in this hostile environment the manufacturers of these ships have taken no steps to beef these vessels up? Allowing criminal behaviour as a valid playstyle is one thing, rigging the rules to favor that playstyle over all others is what is unreasonable. In too many cases in this game those who behave like normal well adjusted human animals are put at a disadvantage to the sociopaths. This is just makes no sense. Societies take steps to protect themselves from such behaviors that's why we have prisons and assylums and police forces. Flimsy industrial ships which enable near cost free suicide ganking. Concord providing protection for activities that any normal human being would consider crimial. If this were a real universe the industrial ships would be armed and armored to the teeth. They'd have huge tanks and plenty of drones to defend themselves, They'd definitely be tough enough to hold together long enough for help to arive. Hell you can't even escort these craft because they aren't beefy enough to live long eough for assistance to be granted. High sec is supposed to be a safer place for those who are in compliance with the law it is perfectly reasonable that the mechanics in these systems should favor those who do not engage in criminal behavior. Right now where is the parity of a consequence for the mission thief? As long as they do not loot anything other than the mission objective they recieve concord protection the person who is facing loss of standings and income unless they surender to the blackmail has no recourse if they attempt to destroy the theif they will loose their ship. if they refuse to pay the ransom they will loss faction standing with the agent they are working for which will reduce their potential income. What negative consequences to the theif? None. This dark, gritty, brutal, evil, cruel world you describe....sounds a lot like the EvE universe described in the flavor text. Just saying...
Aera Aiana	Posted - 2010.04.08 20:35:00 - [50] Originally by: Tippia If the thief could get the item, then so could the mission runner û if it was so important to him, then why didn't he go and get it already? In other words, no I don't object to giving them a chance to fight back û in fact, I think they already do, and have chosen not to. Yes because Battleships usually outrun frigates, the skies are green and your kids grow on purple trees ... Originally by: Tippia Pretty much, yes, seeing as how the battleship is in far better control over where and when the thing will appear ... and battleships pop stuff in melee range, large guns have faster tracking then small ones and the damsel really is a virgin ... Originally by: Tippia Why do you want to give mission runners an advantage they don't particularly need? What advantage? The advantage to get the right to shoot at somebody's PVP fit while sitting in a mission fit? Wow, now that would be so unfair towards the poor pirate. Not to mention that it would actually take some little amount of guts to steal stuff if there's a chance to be punished (by a puny little missionrunner in a missionfit and guns that couldn't hit you if you put your ship in parking-mode). But yeah, you really have to be afraid that CCP might change the system to actually get you flagged for theft. Maybe flagged for the agent so he can give a mission to blow you up?... Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Skex Relbore There is parity because the rules are consistent for all parties. Exactly. So why do you want to add imparity? Why do you want to give mission runners an advantage they don't particularly need? Quote: The situation as it stands now completely favors the mission theif How so? I'm kind of wondering if you're serious. I mean it doesn't take a rocketscientist to see the answer coming, so why do you ask for it? Anyway, it's right above my post. -

Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.08 20:39:00 - [51] Edited by: Tippia on 08/04/2010 20:43:41 Originally by: Skex Relbore If things were changed to make looting a mission objective a criminal act then there would be parity because the consequences are the same for commiting a criminal act. Yes, and the question is why the two should be compared – why should there be parity between this and loot theft? Why is it so bad that the MR has to keep up with the competition over an obviously valuable resource? Originally by: Aera Aiana Yes because Battleships usually outrun frigates Why would they have to? Quote: ... and battleships pop stuff in melee range, large guns have faster tracking then small ones and the damsel really is a virgin ... Nope. But the MR is still in full control over where and when this precious item will appear. Quote: What advantage? Being allowed to fire if someone comes it and takes the item in question, but not being a target themselves under the same conditions. Quote: I'm kind of wondering if you're serious. I mean it doesn't take a rocketscientist to see the answer coming, so why do you ask for it? Anyway, it's right above my post. EVE is a dark and cruel world…? How does this make it completely favour the thief more than it favours the MR? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Syril Mert Another One Down	Posted - 2010.04.08 20:44:00 - [52] I've never had this problem, but I don't do missions in systems with 400+ players either.
Skex Relbore	Posted - 2010.04.08 21:04:00 - [53] Edited by: Skex Relbore on 08/04/2010 21:05:43 Originally by: Syril Mert I've never had this problem, but I don't do missions in systems with 400+ players either. I've not had the problem either, Then again I've never been I've never had my house burgled either doesn't mean that should be legal. And to Tippia's Cold harsh universe thing apparently you think it should only be a cold dark place for mission runners, miners and frieght haulers while Mission item theives and ninja salvagers get to hide behind Concords skirts and Suicide gankers should get insurance payments to subsidize their griefing. Once again only a cold harsh universe for your victims while nothing but warmth and light and fluffy pillows for the griefers. What are you afraid of? That if the "carebears" were given tools to fight back that you'd suddenly be facing carebears with fangs? Once again here you are opposing an idea that would actually result in more combat (just like your opposition to making ninja salvaging flag for theft) while claiming to be some sort of hardcore PVPer. Tell me who's really the carebear here?
Mr Epeen	Posted - 2010.04.08 21:25:00 - [54] Originally by: eliminator2 actually there was against lofty scam dnt join there gang WALLA simple WALLA!?! It's voila you dolt! Get an education, for God's sake. Mr Epeen
Taxesarebad	Posted - 2010.04.08 21:45:00 - [55] Originally by: Mey Alman How about an RP solution: Agent: Complete Mission, Abandon Mission, * took the Item Game checks if * really has the item (Agents seem to have connections :) ) faction hit for *** for interfering with state matters --> mission complete (secret agents get the item back) i like this idea, it makes sense. that or concord for stealing the mission loot ( no other loot)
Taedrin Gallente Xovoni Directorate	Posted - 2010.04.08 23:09:00 - [56] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Skex Relbore I think that if you aren't in the gang with the person who has the mission then taking the completion item should set an agression flag so that the mission runner at least has the option of fighting for their property. Not that I expect you to agree since you seem to object to any changes that allow the victims a chance to fight back. If the thief could get the item, then so could the mission runner û if it was so important to him, then why didn't he go and get it already? In other words, no I don't object to giving them a chance to fight back û in fact, I think they already do, and have chosen not to. More importantly, if the thief can get the item, then why didn't the mission runner blitz the mission in a shuttle in the first place? ---------- Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
ATheGreat	Posted - 2010.04.08 23:17:00 - [57] I can see whyt he OP may be frustrated, but its not like you are ocmpletely helpless use eve-agents.com to find an agent somewhere more peaceful for starters!! Also even if you know the mission itself, the eve survival guide does tell you where and when the drop will occur, plan around expecting company if you get it alot.. It is an interesting point, and I do like the whole theif gets standing hit with said faction, but ultimately I doubt the theif could give a monkeys about such thing I have been a victim of such thieves, but the key is to make things difficult for them, blow up wrecks, hell if you can see its about to happen, blow up the objective item before they get it One of my favourite times was when a scanning frigate came in to mission space about 80km from me in my nightmare, stole from a can, and I was able to pop them another time a corp mate was having trouble with one running to and fro taking loot, I just waited at acceleration gate, some distance away, again in the nightmare, and the tables were turned, it was me doing the ransoming!! The sandbox point works both ways, you dont like something, then use the tools ccp give you to do something about it
Aqriue	Posted - 2010.04.08 23:24:00 - [58] Your not required to run a BS to missions. You could always train for a Tengu and make it unprobable or run in an Ishtar. Ninjas are a lazy creature, they search for the largest fattest bug on the scanner. Their filters will rarely be searching for Strategic Cruisers or HACs because it might require a little more effort to find. Or you could just ignore the ninja and pop wrecks, don't bother looting everything. You can blitz 2 more missions in the time it takes to loot/salvage a single mission. And if they steal the mission objective, just ignore any contracts they send you (they do loose isk for canceling prematurely) and they won't always have another buyer available, hence more time wasted on their part. Its not profitable to them to farm missioners, its more profitable to farm missions themselves
klarno	Posted - 2010.04.09 00:37:00 - [59] You could just wait until after downtime and attempt the mission again. That way you get double loot/bounties. Also you could do missions with a fleet. I find eve is more enjoyable when the other players around me are my friends. It must depend on your friends though. Ninjas are definitly more fun than a lot of people.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2010.04.09 00:42:00 - [60] Originally by: Boreanna I haven't been playing long, but I've discussed this with people who have been playing for years. It seems the problem started when probing was changed. For those of you who don't follow me, I'm referring to people probing you down, going into your mission and getting whatever item you need to complete it, then ransoming it to you for whatever they want to charge. If you don't pay, you will have to quit the mission and take a faction hit. Sure, we need piracy. The game wouldn't be fun without it. Take my money, sure. You're a pirate that's what you do. Some day when I grow up, I may want to be a pirate. THIS practice however takes away peoples ability to make money and is a game flaw that needs to be corrected. Most of the seasoned players I've talked to no longer do missions for that reason and I don't blame em. No one should be able to ruin someone's STANDINGS.That's just wrong. If probing someone into a mission can't or won't be changed, how about changing the items to things like 10 militants.Something cheap so that it's more about being flagged for having killed the final ship(s). There needs to be at least missions as a safe haven for making money and standings so you can get more ships to throw in the meat grinder. If you can't even do that, you can't play. Was that you that I stole 276 units of Gamboge Cytoserocin from yesterday? If so or if not: 1) You should have been more prepared like not canning the stuff. 2) If you're talking about something like a damsel or the Heron Crew, why not grab it ASAP instead of waiting until you kill everything? Most missioners can tank a mission at least enough to grab the mission loot. 3) Why not just deal for it and be done with it? 4) If not #3 why not just quit the mission and be done with it? 5) If the standing is that big of a deal see #3. 6) You're wasting your breath. CCP is not going to end piracy. Besides, they don't want you missioning. They want you doing something more MMO like. Here I am trying to be a good MMO player by interacting with you and you rebuff me?

Tolgar Caldari Interstellar Pie Fanatics	Posted - 2010.04.09 01:30:00 - [61] I could be wrong, but I thought the CCP line for mission objective theft was, "if they take it and ransom it, and deliver after payment, everything is fine" but "they just up and take your mission item and impede you from being able to finish the mission" was petitionable. What happened to that part?
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2010.04.09 01:47:00 - [62] Originally by: Tolgar I could be wrong, but I thought the CCP line for mission objective theft was, "if they take it and ransom it, and deliver after payment, everything is fine" but "they just up and take your mission item and impede you from being able to finish the mission" was petitionable. What happened to that part? So what happens when the missioner doesn't deal? I'm thinking you've misunderstood something.
Tolgar Caldari Interstellar Pie Fanatics	Posted - 2010.04.09 02:28:00 - [63] Nono, I remember something from a couple years ago, around when salvaging came out, that salvaging was legal, taking loot, does flag but you can either shoot them or not, but taking the mission objective item, the person can ransom it (pirating) but if he just takes off with it, it is grief play and is petitionable as against the rules. Was like, you can do everything up to war deccing the guy and killing his ship, suiciding him, salvaging his stuff, looting all his stuff, BUT if you actually made it impossible for him to finish the mission (In high sec), (took item didn't ransom it) that was against policy (odd I know but this sticks out in my mind).
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.09 03:52:00 - [64] Edited by: Zartrader on 09/04/2010 03:56:11 Originally by: Tolgar Nono, I remember something from a couple years ago, around when salvaging came out, that salvaging was legal, taking loot, does flag but you can either shoot them or not, but taking the mission objective item, the person can ransom it (pirating) but if he just takes off with it, it is grief play and is petitionable as against the rules. Was like, you can do everything up to war deccing the guy and killing his ship, suiciding him, salvaging his stuff, looting all his stuff, BUT if you actually made it impossible for him to finish the mission (In high sec), (took item didn't ransom it) that was against policy (odd I know but this sticks out in my mind). That's nothing to do with what's being complained about. Maybe reread the Op. EDIT: Here's the bit: '.... For those of you who don't follow me, I'm referring to people probing you down, going into your mission and getting whatever item you need to complete it, then ransoming it to you for whatever they want to charge. If you don't pay, you will have to quit the mission and take a faction hit.......' The Op feels he should not have to pay, that's it, nothing else.
Dramund	Posted - 2010.04.09 04:28:00 - [65] Seconding that this is a necessary game mechanic to offset the lemming mentality of mission runners. Yes, there really is an advantage to taking a lower quality agent outside of Motsu. Mission runners really need to try doing anything else before they post.
Tolgar Caldari Interstellar Pie Fanatics	Posted - 2010.04.09 04:52:00 - [66] Yah my bad, pirates were ransoming, guy just didn't wanna pay, that's totally fine. Get lost reading all these things sometimes.
Solomar Espersei Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.04.09 06:02:00 - [67] Confirming that this thread has produced enough fuel to power my ship for the next 18 months. Your tears sustain us, even in the face of plummeting salvage prices. all the best, solomar
Aqriue	Posted - 2010.04.09 07:22:00 - [68] Originally by: Solomar Espersei Confirming that this thread has produced enough fuel to power my ship for the next 18 months. Your tears sustain us, even in the face of plummeting salvage prices. Confirming your canned cliche response will produce enough fuel to power my ship for the next infinity squared (cliches have longer shelf lives then SPAM meat). You lack inputting anything creative to the forums, plummeting so low as to recycle a common meme should make you ashamed of yourself.
Muppet Rex	Posted - 2010.04.09 13:06:00 - [69] I think problem here is only, that mission containers are not flagged as property and don't flag the thief, therefor the mission runner looses his choice to answer the ransom request with force. I don't feel this is generally the way EVE works, as normally you have that choice even though it might come at larger costs than meeting the made request. And I don't think any bull**** arguments from hardcorepirateguys change that. Its not about anyone asks for all that unicorn, rainbow stuff, it is just asked that the action of pirate come equally at a cost (being attackable in this case).
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.04.09 13:57:00 - [70] Edited by: Zartrader on 09/04/2010 14:02:04 Originally by: Dramund Seconding that this is a necessary game mechanic to offset the lemming mentality of mission runners. Yes, there really is an advantage to taking a lower quality agent outside of Motsu. Mission runners really need to try doing anything else before they post. Yes, except for rep missioning in Motsu is nuts. The LP and mission rewards are a fraction of other corps as many are speed run and it's a very hi sec level. Player's would be a lot better off missioning elsewhere then selling LP items to fund any CN LP items they want from contracts. They would make a LOT more ISK and still get the CN items. The Agent quality is useless when the other factors are taken into account and many other corps have agents just as good. Compared to agents I use the quality is more like -20. It's why I laugh at those who moan about ninja salvager's. If it was not for these forums I would never know about them. I sometimes think people are happy to let the same things happen to them time after time and then moan about it on the forums. They don't grasp the very unsubtle hint that just maybe how they are going about things is wrong and they are asking to be victims time and again. So let's not change anything, if people can't learn then they should suffer the consequences and stop running to mummy expecting a fix.

Newbi McNublette	Posted - 2010.04.09 14:18:00 - [71] Originally by: Sturmwolke Stealing's getting old. The new in thing which is fairly recent (after the salvage nerf) is ninja missioning. They come in and provide additional dps against your mission NPCs This happened to me. I was AFK'ing a mission whilst i did some RL work (yes sometimes that stuff gets in the way of my EVE time ) when i looked up to check on my drones theres a guy in my base killing my dudes! Made me smile.
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2010.04.09 14:53:00 - [72] I agree that other players should not be able to burn your standings like that.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.09 15:21:00 - [73] Originally by: Ana Vyr I agree that other players should not be able to burn your standings like that. I agree. If CCP ever were to introduce a mechanism to that effect, people should yell loudly at them. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2010.04.09 15:42:00 - [74] Originally by: Muppet Rex I think problem here is only, that mission containers are not flagged as property and don't flag the thief, therefor the mission runner looses his choice to answer the ransom request with force. I don't feel this is generally the way EVE works, as normally you have that choice even though it might come at larger costs than meeting the made request. And I don't think any bull**** arguments from hardcorepirateguys change that. Its not about anyone asks for all that unicorn, rainbow stuff, it is just asked that the action of pirate come equally at a cost (being attackable in this case). Apparently, that is exactly how it works. But, I agree, stealing a mission specific item should flag me when I do it. It still won't change anything. I loot infront of most missioners. I will run right up to them and if there's anything good sitting right next to them I'll steal it. The time it takes for me to do it and warp out is generally quicker than the missioner can register he's been mugged. Besides, I'm setup to survive a couple of salvos and defeat scramming. So, there's little chance that the introduction of such a feature would do anything to curtail the act.


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