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Inactivity timeouts for ingame load balancing.

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Lusty Wench	Posted - 2010.06.06 02:40:00 - [1] Some questions I have regarding this game, as it's the only one I've every played that allows you to stay logged in forever while doing absolutely nothing. What is the benefit of allowing players to stay logged in while doing nothing? Why is there no mechanism that will log you out after a certain period of time of no activity? How many of the 40,000 players online every day are just afk alts that do nothing but suck up bandwidth and resources? Would it interfere with your gameplay to have to perform an action once every 15 minutes to avoid being logged out? (This could be any action, undocking, open fitting/market/contracts screens, firing lasers, activating a module, chatting etc) Would it kill you to have to, say open a market window, open a fitting screen, click a UI Element, to prevent you getting logged out for inactivity? Why is it harder to stay logged into the forums than it is to stay logged into the game? How can we create a UI element that cannot be found by pixel colour search scripts? While writing this I thought it would be a good way to mess with afk cloakers. Would this be a decent way to mess with afk cloakers?
dankness420	Posted - 2010.06.06 02:42:00 - [2] I dont see why it really matters. Sometimes I find it nice that I can stay logged in all day without having to mess with the game. It would get annoying every 15 minutes I had to do some stupid action. And what if I am doing something that involves a wait, like waiting for a pos to anchor or online or camping a gate. I shouldn't have to mess with it just because I dont want to have to log in. And also as they say, if it isn't broken, dont fix it!
Caia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.06.06 02:46:00 - [3] People who are AFK and in a station barely take up any resources at all. Aside from the text from the channels they're in, what resources significant are they taking up?
Verys Burning Technologies Cult of War	Posted - 2010.06.06 02:57:00 - [4] I don't think that these players would take up a lot of packets and are probably not worth the effort. I'd imagine if they really would have such an impact on the system CCP would have installed such an afk-kicker ages ago.
Lusty Wench	Posted - 2010.06.06 03:23:00 - [5] Lets take Jita for example. You've got a dozen freighters and 20 other ships 12kms from the gate, who've autopiloted to Jita and gone to bed for the night, why can't they be logged out after 15 minutes? If a mere 10% of the station inhabitants are AFK you could further reduce the tally by another hundred or so. Imagine if half were AFK... By implementing a 15 minute inactivity timer you could reduce the load on a system like Jita by quite a bit. This could be applied to every system, so instead of one with 100 in local youve now got one with 50-80. Honestly can't see any downsides to this.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2010.06.06 03:25:00 - [6] Originally by: Lusty Wench Lets take Jita for example. You've got a dozen freighters and 20 other ships 12kms from the gate, who've autopiloted to Jita and gone to bed for the night, why can't they be logged out after 15 minutes? because then we couldn't punish them for their laziness by suicide ganking them and stealing their stuff _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep!
Lusty Wench	Posted - 2010.06.06 03:30:00 - [7] Edited by: Lusty Wench on 06/06/2010 03:35:48 You'd still have 15 minutes to do it. Have their inactivity timer reset when they take damage. WTB better arguments as to why this should not be implemented.
Caia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.06.06 03:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Caia People who are AFK and in a station barely take up any resources at all. Aside from the text from the channels they're in, what resources significant are they taking up? Not sure you ever answered my question.
AFK Cloaker Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.06.06 03:34:00 - [9]
Lusty Wench	Posted - 2010.06.06 03:38:00 - [10] Edited by: Lusty Wench on 06/06/2010 03:40:02 Originally by: Caia Originally by: Caia People who are AFK and in a station barely take up any resources at all. Aside from the text from the channels they're in, what resources significant are they taking up? Not sure you ever answered my question. It's not about that they take up insignificant resources, whether that's true or false I couldn't say, it's about what benefits are bestowed by allowing extended periods of inactivity. Insignificant is still more than none. I see you lurking there Mr. Cloaker.
dexington	Posted - 2010.06.06 03:43:00 - [11] Guess that the process that is needed to sustain the client connection does not take up alot of resources, so the disconnect is not needed. Also if people just relog as soon as they disconnect, it's properly more costly having to do the login procedure over and over. It might also be easier to do client balancing when the clients are not disconnection and reconnecting all the time. On the subject of jita, no one forces you to go there... if you don't like the lag take your business elsewhere.
Kharylien Gallente Masked Rider Project	Posted - 2010.06.06 04:45:00 - [12] Okay, I'll bite. No. Do not want. Partly because I don't see how the current system hurts the game - and if it did, I think CCP would have addressed it - and partly because EVE is the only MMO I've played where I am not severely handicapped by a disability that often has negative impacts on my life. When I'm doing pretty much anything that doesn't involve risk of immediate destruction, I can get distracted, because I genuinely have severe ADHD in real life, and it's not actually possible to spend every minute of the day taking significant quantities of dexamphetamines to keep me focussed. Some time later, I remember I was playing EVE and come back to it. At present, I pick up where I left off - come back to my mining alt floating in a belt with cargo holds full, or my mission ship floating by a gate, or my ship floating by a jump gate I'd been warping to with the intention of jumping. If this afk kickout thing applied I'd have to log in and wait out ewarps and re-load my browser tabs and hunt down and scoop my drones (if they survived) - assuming my ship survived the logout, if I was in a mission, because sometimes they don't. The lack of AFK-kickout is, genuinely, one of the things I love about EVE.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.06 05:24:00 - [13] Edited by: Akita T on 06/06/2010 05:30:45 __ Idle players have a very small impact on server resources, and that only if they sit around in space in a busy grid. Idle and docked players (or idle and sitting in space in an empty grid with no fleet) have practically next to no impact on server resources. There is no need to "cut off" idle players *"for ingame load balancing"* purposes. This whole thread is pointless, based either on wrong assumptions or LOLAFKCLOAKER not so hidden agenda. HTFU and STFU. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.06.06 05:36:00 - [14] Originally by: Lusty Wench I see you lurking there Mr. Cloaker. And that is one reason. If a AFK cloaker bother you so much it is doing something simply being logged. There there are plenty of activities that can be left unattended for more than 15 minutes and still go on (mining for example).
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.06.06 05:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/06/2010 05:30:45 __ Idle players have a very small impact on server resources, and that only if they sit around in space in a busy grid. Idle and docked players (or idle and sitting in space in an empty grid with no fleet) have practically next to no impact on server resources. That's strange. Because whenever a node crashes there is always the question of "how many people were on that node". No one ever asked how many non-idle players were on the node. If I remeber correctly the pilot cap on Jita is also based on the number of pilots, not if they are idle or not. We've all been looking at the wrong thing!! Those poor idlers were wrongfully put together with the ones causing server lag... Also one last question: "practically next to no impact" is more than "no impact", right?
Lusty Wench	Posted - 2010.06.06 06:27:00 - [16] Originally by: Kharylien Okay, I'll bite. Medical Stuff... Without being a complete tool and telling you what I really think, I don't know where to go with that. Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/06/2010 05:30:45 __ Stuff... Source to back up your claims? Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 06/06/2010 05:37:42 Originally by: Lusty Wench I see you lurking there Mr. Cloaker. That was a shoutout to the guy..nothing more. I think it's awesome that he pops into every thread containing "afk cloak" as a search term and posts..nothing. Given the name I think it's great. Mining lasers, even Ice are less than 5 minutes, so you're still performing an action more often than once every 15 minutes. So you won't get AFK'd out whilst mining. Autopilot performs an action more than once every 15 minutes, so that won't do it either.
Zions Child Caldari Carthage Industries	Posted - 2010.06.06 06:32:00 - [17] Edited by: Zions Child on 06/06/2010 06:32:58 Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/06/2010 05:30:45 __ Stuff... Source to back up your claims? The Packets that CCP uses to communicate take up about 2KBps. The game was designed to run on a 56.6 kbps modem. When Idle, you use even less resources, as you are not constantly updating data about your location or movement. Also, the reason why people talk about numbers of people in local when node crashes happen, is because the nodes are being overloaded with movement information. When you log in, the server has to make you appear on grid and such, and load relative distance information. People logging into stations contribute very little to the node death, but no one cares and its nigh impossible to get an accurate number of people idling during a large fleet op. And Jita is Jita. EDIT: Source Ctrl+Alt+Shift+M Originally by: CCP Shadow snip Castration successful. Shadow.
N0N	Posted - 2010.06.06 06:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Lusty Wench While writing this I thought it would be a good way to mess with afk cloakers. Would this be a decent way to mess with afk cloakers? No you cloaked the OP with crap about server resources taken up by AFK people, then ended with the real reason you are whining. A few pointers. [ ]Rat with friends in PvP ships, not alone in your (insert PvE ship). [ ]Bait them. [ ]Mine in groups. [ ]Grow a pair. [ ]Use another system. [ ]Leave 0.0 [ ]DIAF in-game. You choose.
Lusty Wench	Posted - 2010.06.06 06:55:00 - [19] You're wrong dude, I don't give a rats arse about cloakers. I do however see a lot of complaints on the forums about them. There's no whining, there's less than a dozen questions I have about the game, to which there has been one serious attempt at answering.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.06 07:12:00 - [20] Edited by: Akita T on 06/06/2010 07:15:25 Originally by: Libin Herobi Quote: Idle players have a very small impact on server resources, and that only if they sit around in space in a busy grid. Idle and docked players (or idle and sitting in space in an empty grid with no fleet) have practically next to no impact on server resources. Because whenever a node crashes there is always the question of "how many people were on that node". No one ever asked how many non-idle players were on the node. Because when a node crashes, it doesn't crash because of idle players, but because of those "doing stuff". Also, there's no way for anybody except CCP to know which ones were active and which ones were idle, so asking OTHER PLAYERS how many non-idle players there were would be kind of pointless. Quote: If I remeber correctly the pilot cap on Jita is also based on the number of pilots, not if they are idle or not. I could not say if that is an accurate description of what happens or not. It's certainly easier to code a limit that way (fixed number), sure, but the proper way to limit would be per average CPU load instead (moving limit - if CPU goes above, say, 90% or 95% average use, deny more by holding limit or even lower limit in case some go out and you don't want new ones in ; if below another average usage, increase limit, and so on). Quote: Also one last question: "practically next to no impact" is more than "no impact", right? Yes, and a little bit of household dust in a breeze is different from a clean room, but it's pretty much insignificant when compared to a sandstorm. Remember the "unholy rage" devblog ? The one where they mentioned, among other things, just how much the average macro/bot was using system resources compared to the average regular user ? Now just consider for a second what that means, and how much more the average active user eats up server resources compared to the average idle user. If you're alone in an empty grid, physics simulation is, well, pretty much a no-brainer - no collision detection, no relative distance calculations, no nothing, just you and space. If also idle, no alterations to those parameters are needed, no data needs to change hand server-client, load is minimal. If you're not in a fleet, no data needs to be constantly updated either. When docked, the physical simulation isn't even running, even if it was next to negligible. All you "eat up" then is the awesomely "huge" CPU cycles needed to keep chat channels updated (and I don't have to tell you just how many users can be handled by a crummy machine using an IRC server, and that's basically what the ingame chat channel is). In a busy stargate grid, yeah, there you do add SOME load, but not much more than one of the NPC patrool craft around a stargate. How about we remove those too ? Or the billboard too ? How about them NPC turrets ? Originally by: Zions Child Originally by: Lusty Wench Source to back up your claims? The Packets that CCP uses to communicate take up about 2KBps. The game was designed to run on a 56.6 kbps modem. When Idle, you use even less resources, as you are not constantly updating data about your location or movement. Also, the reason why people talk about numbers of people in local when node crashes happen, is because the nodes are being overloaded with movement information. When you log in, the server has to make you appear on grid and such, and load relative distance information. People logging into stations contribute very little to the node death, but no one cares and its nigh impossible to get an accurate number of people idling during a large fleet op. And Jita is Jita. EDIT: Source Ctrl+Alt+Shift+M Would be pointless to say the same thing yet again with different words so I'm just going to quote and say "this". _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Robdon Baptism oF Fire	Posted - 2010.06.06 07:56:00 - [21] Regardless of why, there is also no way to do it correctly. If they did this, I would just write an app that 'nudges' my session every 14 Minutes to keep it 'active'. I leave my session logged on when not active so that I can see what's been going on in my chat/Intel channels and therefore know what has been going on or if I need to be aware of any reds around the area.
Betty Boom Caldari SPECTRE Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.06 08:24:00 - [22] Originally by: Lusty Wench Edited by: Lusty Wench on 06/06/2010 03:35:48 You'd still have 15 minutes to do it. I tell you some examples, why I think this discusion is stupid. a) When I mine my Hauler on the second account waits in the system to pick up the cans. I mine 5k m¦ all 3 minutes and need 30 minutes to fill my Hauler. In some days i Have an Orca instead of this. One hour without one single input on my second account to fill it. I need 2 ships to get my fleetbonus. oki ? During mining I read internet, look Youtube or spam the forum. b) When i wait for production or reseach, i stay online and read internet, look youtube, spam forum or telephone with a friend. Why I should go offline ? c) I am in a regional chat too, when ppl sometimes want stuff or have questions. Mostly People want ships or something. I easy can give an answer 20 or 30 minutes later when i read this. But for this i need to be online. oki ? Many people in this game are waiting for other people to come online to buy or sell stuff. and no - eve mail doesnt replace all little personal chat with this ppl. I maximize the Eve Client very often, but i doesnt need to make a single input for a lot of stuff. ;-)
RatKnight1 Gallente Mahdi Followers	Posted - 2010.06.06 08:50:00 - [23] Ok, I will only say a few things about this: 1) I pay 50 cents a day to play this game (15$ a month). If I want to spend my entire day logged in doing nothing, that is my prerogative, this is after all, a "sand box", so the entire point of this thing is pointless (get it?). 2) It is never going to happen. 3) This thread has used up more bandwidth in the last hour then 20 idle AFK'ers do in the same amount of time. So, if you want to help with bandwidth issues, stop posting pointless threads. Sources: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/878624/page/1 Total size of this entire page: 2.4 MB (used a program). My math is probably a bit off, but you get the point. Now, I am going to log in my 3 characters and leave them sit there for the next 3 hours, basically because this is a sandbox, and I can. Thank You. [url=http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=RatKnight1][/u
Libin Herobi	Posted - 2010.06.06 10:01:00 - [24] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/06/2010 07:15:25 Originally by: Libin Herobi Quote: Idle players have a very small impact on server resources, and that only if they sit around in space in a busy grid. Idle and docked players (or idle and sitting in space in an empty grid with no fleet) have practically next to no impact on server resources. Because whenever a node crashes there is always the question of "how many people were on that node". No one ever asked how many non-idle players were on the node. Because when a node crashes, it doesn't crash because of idle players, but because of those "doing stuff". Also, there's no way for anybody except CCP to know which ones were active and which ones were idle, so asking OTHER PLAYERS how many non-idle players there were would be kind of pointless. There's also no way for anybody except CCP to know how many player were on the node. So this question must be just as pointless. Yet people keep asking this... http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329157&page=1#2
Achnaton S'Erum	Posted - 2010.06.06 10:12:00 - [25] Originally by: Libin Herobi Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/06/2010 07:15:25 Originally by: Libin Herobi Quote: Idle players have a very small impact on server resources, and that only if they sit around in space in a busy grid. Idle and docked players (or idle and sitting in space in an empty grid with no fleet) have practically next to no impact on server resources. Because whenever a node crashes there is always the question of "how many people were on that node". No one ever asked how many non-idle players were on the node. Because when a node crashes, it doesn't crash because of idle players, but because of those "doing stuff". Also, there's no way for anybody except CCP to know which ones were active and which ones were idle, so asking OTHER PLAYERS how many non-idle players there were would be kind of pointless. There's also no way for anybody except CCP to know how many player were on the node. So this question must be just as pointless. Yet people keep asking this... http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329157&page=1#2 In post 10 of that same thread, the explanation for asking is given.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.06 10:15:00 - [26] Originally by: Libin Herobi There's also no way for anybody except CCP to know how many player were on the node. Actually, there is. If you know the system you talk about was "reinforced" for a fleet battle by being moved to a dedicated node, or if the system always runs on a dedicated node (Jita is one of at least 5 systems that does), then the number of people in local IS the number of people on the node. Originally by: Libin Herobi Yet people keep asking this... http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329157&page=1#2 That's not a real question. That's a figure of speech that means "it doesn't matter there were just 91 in local unless you know it was a reinforced node, there could have been thousands on the node when it crashed, so stop complaining about a crash with little people in local unless you know what you are talking about". Which, by the way, becomes obvious if you keep reading the subsequent posts. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Ti'anla Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.06 10:25:00 - [27] Edited by: Ti''anla on 06/06/2010 10:28:07 Why this strange fixation on the number 15? That's draconian even for MMO's that do employ an idle-kicker. Now, if, if it were elevated to three hours, I might just consider it acceptable.. but I'd only be comfortable with the kick being closer to six hours and even then, I'd be concerned about who and what it would inconvenience. EVE is a very different MMO and I can think of a good few things a three hours idle limit might at least inconvenience, even a few at sic, I think. But fifteen? Are you nuts? o.O And as others have said, an idle player consumes /very/ few resources. Just enough to ping/pong the server and keep them up to date on text exchange - at least if in station. Now, idle on the grid.. perhaps that'll cause a just about noticeable enough demand to be of some small concern, but then you're back into 'fair target' territory. Besides, at present, we do have an idle kicker. It engages every 24 hours, and thus punts off the egregious offenders at the very least.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2010.06.06 11:03:00 - [28] Considering that I pay for server access, depriving me of server access when I want server access by kicking me for inactivity, even though I want to stay logged on would be a violation of the service agreement. --------
dexington	Posted - 2010.06.06 11:22:00 - [29] Originally by: Abrazzar Considering that I pay for server access, depriving me of server access when I want server access by kicking me for inactivity, even though I want to stay logged on would be a violation of the service agreement. Then you should call you attorney and tell him they shut the server down every day at 11-12 utc, right now i'm unable to log in and play the game, and i want to play the game! ;) Aslong as the kicking servers the purpose of improving the servers and the service they provide, i don't think you can claim it violates the TOS or EULA.
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.06.06 13:16:00 - [30] EVE is perfect, cry more!

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