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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.09 20:23:00 -
[1]
I made a proposal in Assembly hall that would make fw occupancy involve pvp instead of pve. The url is in my signature. In sum the proposal would 1)remove all npcs from occupancy related plexes and 2) immediately alert militia players via a separate channel when and where occupancy related plexes are being entered and by whom and ship types. The pros and cons of the idea are discussed in the thread in my sig.
I think itÆs pretty clear that the proposal would indeed make FW occupancy pvp centered instead of pve centered. However, I guess when I made the proposal I made an assumption. That assumption was that most players would *like* fw occupancy to be pvp driven instead of pve driven. IÆm not really sure thatÆs the case. So I figured I ask in this forum since this is a fw specific forum.
1) Do you think fw occupancy should be designed as pve centered activity or pvp centered activity?
2)Would you be more (or less) likely to want to do fw, if occupancy was determined by pvp instead of pve?
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Eelis Kiy
Gallente
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.09 21:44:00 -
[2]
The whole thing is in low-sec, so surely it's going to be pvp related whatever is naturally in the plex? 
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>>where the frack is my ship?<< |
Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.09 22:00:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Eelis Kiy
The whole thing is in low-sec, so surely it's going to be pvp related whatever is naturally in the plex?
^^What she said. NPCs could use a lifting though. Sleeper AI plus webbing/scrambling/neuting etc.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.09 22:18:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Originally by: Eelis Kiy
The whole thing is in low-sec, so surely it's going to be pvp related whatever is naturally in the plex?
^^What she said. NPCs could use a lifting though. Sleeper AI plus webbing/scrambling/neuting etc.
Uh what? NPC's are the problem, they discourage pvp. Making them better helps how?
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GavinGoodrich
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.06.09 22:30:00 -
[5]
It can be both.
You can make it affect the lowsec missions which are still great isk per hour in some shape or form.
Adding sleeper AI to the mission/plex rats isn't a bad thing.
However...that's not what the vast majority are looking for.
The #1 suggestion that's had the most support behind it is changing how the stations are affected by sov. There's plenty of others too, but...
...sadly, CCP are beyond this expansion. I would put money on the table that we won't see any big changes, or at least the ones the masses want, for at least 2 more years. Sorry guys.
\o |
Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.10 00:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Originally by: Eelis Kiy
The whole thing is in low-sec, so surely it's going to be pvp related whatever is naturally in the plex?
^^What she said. NPCs could use a lifting though. Sleeper AI plus webbing/scrambling/neuting etc.
Uh what? NPC's are the problem, they discourage pvp. Making them better helps how?
NPCs are perceived by some to be the problem and they think it discourages pvp.
And yet pvp happens daily in these plexes. NPC presence favours the defender which is good for new players and makes flying cheap ship against more expensive ones viable. It also breaks up blobs because of gate restrictions (which is why you guys are flying in faction frig blobs I hear).
It makes offensive plexing harder as it should be, and by buffing it further as my earlier post it will eliminate silly tactic like speed/range tanking to some extent.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.06.10 04:43:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
NPCs are perceived by some to be the problem and they think it discourages pvp.
And yet pvp happens daily in these plexes
^^this.
Some seem to believe that plex = PvE and completely miss the point.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 05:00:00 -
[8]
Edited by: chatgris on 10/06/2010 05:01:31
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
NPCs are perceived by some to be the problem and they think it discourages pvp.
And yet pvp happens daily in these plexes
^^this.
Some seem to believe that plex = PvE and completely miss the point.
I'd LIKE to pvp in plexes - but have you tried pvping when the NPC's jam you for three solid minutes? I have - it doesn't really work out that well.
Even if they don't jam you solid for minutes at a time (in minor plexes they don't jam you too often), they jam you often enough that if you're winning, your target usually has an exit opportunity.
Unless ofc, you bring a blob, or have some dedicated rat aggro guys.
As for the rest of plexing - I love it. The size restricted nature, the place to pvp where there are no station/gate games. And no gate guns for pirates!
But the rats are nowhere near balanced, and it's a major impediment to solo/small gang pvp.
NOTE: My experiences are in gallente fw.
Anyways - this has been discussed to death pretty much ever since FW started. The best we got was at fanfest a dev noted that they realized the rats were unbalanced.
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Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.10 05:50:00 -
[9]
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes exist to fight in. Wrong. They exist to fight OVER.
If your approach to the plexes is the latter, you would look and find ways to indeed fight in plexes effectively and win no matter the npcs or odds. For example in your case, use Gallente strengths against Caldari jamming. Unleash drones and who cares if you are jammed. Opponent escapes? Who cares? Your objective is the plex not the kill, that is just the icing on the cake. If the other guy wants it as bad as you do, he will be back and if your drones have cleared the npcs by then maybe you can get him too as well.
Unfortunatelly most players do not care about capturing the plex but getting the kill. But this is not the players' fault. It is CCP's as there are no real tangible incentives to fight over plexes except bragging rights and RP reasons. And there lies the true failure of FW.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 06:03:00 -
[10]
Fair enough - I fall under the "plexes exist to fight in category".
Having said that, even if you take your view of what plexing is, the rats are still quite unbalanced. Ofc, coming from a "fight in" viewpoint, I'd just like to remove rats, or nerf rats (as opposed to buffing the weak rats).
I will cherish the rarity of an internet debate that ended in at least the understanding of viewpoints :)
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Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.10 06:29:00 -
[11]
Originally by: chatgris
Fair enough - I fall under the "plexes exist to fight in category".
Having said that, even if you take your view of what plexing is, the rats are still quite unbalanced. Ofc, coming from a "fight in" viewpoint, I'd just like to remove rats, or nerf rats (as opposed to buffing the weak rats).
I will cherish the rarity of an internet debate that ended in at least the understanding of viewpoints :)
There is nothing wrong from your viewpoint other than it is the same viewpoint third parties to FW have such as pirates :)
Regading Caldari npcs being "stronger" due to ecm/missiles, well according to prime fiction the Caldari war machine is second to none. As for removing/nerf rats, I stand by my opinion that on the contrary they need buffing. Wouldn't you like to have Gallente npcs webbing/neuting/RRing etc? It would also be fair though that Gallente npcs were made to unleash drones, and lots of them og different varieties(webbing jamming etc).
Having npcs unleashing drones will open a whole new can of worms though...Wait...Was that a collective missioner scream I just heard?
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 06:37:00 -
[12]
Edited by: chatgris on 10/06/2010 06:37:09
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Wouldn't you like to have Gallente npcs webbing/neuting/RRing etc? It would also be fair though that Gallente npcs were made to unleash drones, and lots of them og different varieties(webbing jamming etc).
No. Plexes are a mechanism I would like to pvp in (solo, small gang). Having rats like that on my side would chase away both enemies and pirates, both of which I always am hoping will enter the plex for some pvp.
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Having npcs unleashing drones will open a whole new can of worms though...Wait...Was that a collective missioner scream I just heard?
No, I think that was the scream of the guys who manage server load though ;)
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.10 06:44:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jin Nib on 10/06/2010 06:45:52
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes exist to fight in. Wrong. They exist to fight OVER.
That perception comes about because there is no reason, no motivation, for fighting over a plex. It doesn't do anything but alter some words at the corner of your screen as you fly on through. As such, if you go to a plex, or are spending time doing it, the reason becomes to pick a fight. If they had any tangible value of some form at all, then I might agree with you that they are something to fight over (although even then I'd still argue that the purpose is to encourage fighting).
Edit: Also they are more boring then missions, which is an achievement all it self.
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.10 06:53:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jin Nib
Edited by: Jin Nib on 10/06/2010 06:45:52
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes exist to fight in. Wrong. They exist to fight OVER.
That perception comes about because there is no reason, no motivation, for fighting over a plex. It doesn't do anything but alter some words at the corner of your screen as you fly on through. As such, if you go to a plex, or are spending time doing it, the reason becomes to pick a fight. If they had any tangible value of some form at all, then I might agree with you that they are something to fight over (although even then I'd still argue that the purpose is to encourage fighting).
Edit: Also they are more boring then missions, which is an achievement all it self.
Ahem. We actually agree. Last part of my post you were quoting:
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Unfortunatelly most players do not care about capturing the plex but getting the kill. But this is not the players' fault. It is CCP's as there are no real tangible incentives to fight over plexes except bragging rights and RP reasons. And there lies the true failure of FW.
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.10 07:00:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jin Nib on 10/06/2010 07:00:43
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Ahem. We actually agree. Last part of my post you were quoting:
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Unfortunatelly most players do not care about capturing the plex but getting the kill. But this is not the players' fault. It is CCP's as there are no real tangible incentives to fight over plexes except bragging rights and RP reasons. And there lies the true failure of FW.
Indeed. Perhaps I should alter your statement to reflect this more accurately then: Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes exist to fight in. Wrong. They should exist to fight OVER.
Note: This forum timer is really annoying when trying to carry on a conversation, especially since they said they'd reduce it months ago.... (like FW has a chance if they don't even support the forums  )
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.06.10 07:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cearain
1) Do you think fw occupancy should be designed as pve centered activity or pvp centered activity?
2)Would you be more (or less) likely to want to do fw, if occupancy was determined by pvp instead of pve?
There is no unwritten rule saying "never the twain shall meet".
Several ways exist to combine them into something that is greater than the sum of the two:
- Let occupancy influence agent access/quality (the weaker solution)
- Let a fraction of the LP-for-Kills be counted as VP for system (idea growing on me).
- Let LP-for-Kills influence plex spawning mechanic (do we risk more plexes tomorrow in order to save those today?).
- etc.
As for the fighting in/over plexes, huh?
If you fight in a plex you are per definition fighting over the plex. The pirates who frequent the FW areas are just thrilled to have people to shoot and generally don't care if its on a gate, in a belt or in a plex, an un-triggered NPC spawn leaves plenty of time to gank someone, loot and get out with minimal fuss.
On the Minmatar front we have been fighting in and over plexes since day one (ebbs and flows), a contest that started out being driven by RP has become a generic grudge match and a battle of wills involving everyone RP and non-RP alike .. with extraordinary fights as a result (2hr long conflict over a single major plex, numerous reships and shifting holding-field = massive (and costly) fun.
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Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.10 07:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jin Nib
Indeed. Perhaps I should alter your statement to reflect this more accurately then: Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes exist to fight in. Wrong. They should exist to fight OVER.
We are in agreement on that but actually the below reflects more correctly what I was trying to convey:
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes are designed to fight in. Wrong. They were designed to be fought OVER.
And as with many CCP's designs there were a few flaws....
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.10 07:20:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes are designed to fight in. Wrong. They were designed to be fought OVER.
And as with many CCP's designs there were a few flaws....
There is no thumbs up emote on these forums, otherwise this is where I'd use it.
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Hidden Snake
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.06.10 08:15:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Hidden Snake on 10/06/2010 08:15:27
funny thing is that original implementation was much simpler and bugless and encouraged more pvp in plexes ... but they did tweaks and "fixes" and it is kinda broken.
SO CCP PLEASE FIRE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR FW DEVELOPMENT!
"There is no honor in war" |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 08:16:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hidden Snake
SO CCP PLEASE FIRE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR FW DEVELOPMENT!
I don't think there's anyone to fire ;)
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Hidden Snake
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.06.10 08:24:00 -
[21]
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: Hidden Snake
SO CCP PLEASE FIRE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR FW DEVELOPMENT!
I don't think there's anyone to fire ;)
I believe there is becaue, there are crippling it every patch
"There is no honor in war" |
Hidden Snake
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.06.10 08:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: Hidden Snake
SO CCP PLEASE FIRE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR FW DEVELOPMENT!
I don't think there's anyone to fire ;)
I believe there is becaue, there are crippling it every patch.
"There is no honor in war" |
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
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Posted - 2010.06.10 09:11:00 -
[23]
1.Remove NPCs from plexes
2.Make timer only start if there is a member of BOTH opposed forces on grid.
3.?????
4.Profit!
That way you never get to cap a plex without a fight.
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Ginger Lynn
Caldari
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2010.06.10 09:43:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Machiavelli's Nemesis
1.Remove NPCs from plexes
2.Make timer only start if there is a member of BOTH opposed forces on grid.
3.?????
4.Profit!
That way you never get to cap a plex without a fight.
First off:
http://xkcd.com/481/ <-This is you.
Read what you've written loud. Then realize this is eve and everyone got an alt.
Secondly. Yes for the love of god remove rats in fw plexes. You need a dedicated npc tanker to have a chance in opposing militias plexes else you can just packup and go; Not using a dedicated tanker for plexes is only common in the minorest plexes. Theres been plenty of times when its like 'Oh, sweet Ill try this guy on maybe I'll not get rat aggro and get jammed and dpsed to smitherins before I get to fight him' so now I dont even try going after people already inside a plex.
I was a caldari bear, now I fly the curse and still I suck, whats the problem here... |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 16:44:00 -
[25]
It's not clear that it would make the occupancy war pvp instead of pve centered. The pve portion is orbiting a button for "N" minutes.
Removing all npcs from plexes will lead to offensive afk plexing alts (as well as the current defensive ones).
Alerts are a great idea, but people will quit showing up after a while if there are no fights (when afk plexing alt bails).
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 18:45:00 -
[26]
I would like all of you who propose npc-free, ship-limited combat to start hanging out in the Python Cartel and Serpentis plexes in Naga (?) and Oicx for fights. These plexes are custom made for you to have Gladiator style combat. The rats are nerfed to hell and affect both sides equally.
Then, put a proposal in the Assembly Hall to have more of these permanent ship-limited combat arenas (of different sized of course) all over low-sec.
Having NPCs in plexes is great and adds for lots of interesting combat scenarios that wouldn't happen otherwise. What's not great is not knowing how many are currently in a plex before you enter it.
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.10 19:10:00 -
[27]
Originally by: X Gallentius
I would like all of you who propose npc-free, ship-limited combat to start hanging out in the Python Cartel and Serpentis plexes in Naga (?) and Oicx for fights. These plexes are custom made for you to have Gladiator style combat. The rats are nerfed to hell and affect both sides equally.
Then, put a proposal in the Assembly Hall to have more of these permanent ship-limited combat arenas (of different sized of course) all over low-sec.
Having NPCs in plexes is great and adds for lots of interesting combat scenarios that wouldn't happen otherwise. What's not great is not knowing how many are currently in a plex before you enter it.
It'd help if their AI was a little more dynamic. Once you have agro it sticks with you until you leave.
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 19:21:00 -
[28]
Well then one tanker and then you have npc free combat... what's the problem ? 
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Merdaneth
Amarr
Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2010.06.10 21:54:00 -
[29]
There have been plenty of creative and well-thought-out solution proposed over the last two years. As long as CCP doesn't have any team dedicated to it, it is really no use.
Even here we see old arguments rehashed and people thinking of simple solutions that have been proposed and proven not workable many times before.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.12 19:38:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
NPCs are perceived by some to be the problem and they think it discourages pvp.
And yet pvp happens daily in these plexes
^^this.
Some seem to believe that plex = PvE and completely miss the point.
Some? What percent of fw kills are in plexes? Very few people I know want to pvp with unknown rats attacking their ships doing unknown amounts of damage.
Maybe you two like to do this. And maybe you two are correct in thinking that is a great way to pvp. (I doubt it but I admit I rarely do it because it is not what I am interested in at all) But at some point we have to recognize you guys are few and very far between. For the vast majority of eve players trying to combine pve and pvp fails. CCP should acknowledge this and make a good pvp mechanic in fw instead of continuing to tell everyone they are wrong and they should like to do pve and pvp at the same time.
As for those who say that just because you are in low sec you are doing pvp û I disagree. If I run missions or fw plexes and only take damage from rats and run from every other player that comes, then I am doing pve û not pvp. And yes you can do pve and pvp in any area of space in eve.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
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