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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.09 20:23:00 -
[1]
I made a proposal in Assembly hall that would make fw occupancy involve pvp instead of pve. The url is in my signature. In sum the proposal would 1)remove all npcs from occupancy related plexes and 2) immediately alert militia players via a separate channel when and where occupancy related plexes are being entered and by whom and ship types. The pros and cons of the idea are discussed in the thread in my sig.
I think itÆs pretty clear that the proposal would indeed make FW occupancy pvp centered instead of pve centered. However, I guess when I made the proposal I made an assumption. That assumption was that most players would *like* fw occupancy to be pvp driven instead of pve driven. IÆm not really sure thatÆs the case. So I figured I ask in this forum since this is a fw specific forum.
1) Do you think fw occupancy should be designed as pve centered activity or pvp centered activity?
2)Would you be more (or less) likely to want to do fw, if occupancy was determined by pvp instead of pve?
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Eelis Kiy
Gallente
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.09 21:44:00 -
[2]
The whole thing is in low-sec, so surely it's going to be pvp related whatever is naturally in the plex? 
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>>where the frack is my ship?<< |
Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.09 22:00:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Eelis Kiy
The whole thing is in low-sec, so surely it's going to be pvp related whatever is naturally in the plex?
^^What she said. NPCs could use a lifting though. Sleeper AI plus webbing/scrambling/neuting etc.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.09 22:18:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Originally by: Eelis Kiy
The whole thing is in low-sec, so surely it's going to be pvp related whatever is naturally in the plex?
^^What she said. NPCs could use a lifting though. Sleeper AI plus webbing/scrambling/neuting etc.
Uh what? NPC's are the problem, they discourage pvp. Making them better helps how?
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GavinGoodrich
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.06.09 22:30:00 -
[5]
It can be both.
You can make it affect the lowsec missions which are still great isk per hour in some shape or form.
Adding sleeper AI to the mission/plex rats isn't a bad thing.
However...that's not what the vast majority are looking for.
The #1 suggestion that's had the most support behind it is changing how the stations are affected by sov. There's plenty of others too, but...
...sadly, CCP are beyond this expansion. I would put money on the table that we won't see any big changes, or at least the ones the masses want, for at least 2 more years. Sorry guys.
\o |
Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.10 00:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Originally by: Eelis Kiy
The whole thing is in low-sec, so surely it's going to be pvp related whatever is naturally in the plex?
^^What she said. NPCs could use a lifting though. Sleeper AI plus webbing/scrambling/neuting etc.
Uh what? NPC's are the problem, they discourage pvp. Making them better helps how?
NPCs are perceived by some to be the problem and they think it discourages pvp.
And yet pvp happens daily in these plexes. NPC presence favours the defender which is good for new players and makes flying cheap ship against more expensive ones viable. It also breaks up blobs because of gate restrictions (which is why you guys are flying in faction frig blobs I hear).
It makes offensive plexing harder as it should be, and by buffing it further as my earlier post it will eliminate silly tactic like speed/range tanking to some extent.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.06.10 04:43:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
NPCs are perceived by some to be the problem and they think it discourages pvp.
And yet pvp happens daily in these plexes
^^this.
Some seem to believe that plex = PvE and completely miss the point.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 05:00:00 -
[8]
Edited by: chatgris on 10/06/2010 05:01:31
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
NPCs are perceived by some to be the problem and they think it discourages pvp.
And yet pvp happens daily in these plexes
^^this.
Some seem to believe that plex = PvE and completely miss the point.
I'd LIKE to pvp in plexes - but have you tried pvping when the NPC's jam you for three solid minutes? I have - it doesn't really work out that well.
Even if they don't jam you solid for minutes at a time (in minor plexes they don't jam you too often), they jam you often enough that if you're winning, your target usually has an exit opportunity.
Unless ofc, you bring a blob, or have some dedicated rat aggro guys.
As for the rest of plexing - I love it. The size restricted nature, the place to pvp where there are no station/gate games. And no gate guns for pirates!
But the rats are nowhere near balanced, and it's a major impediment to solo/small gang pvp.
NOTE: My experiences are in gallente fw.
Anyways - this has been discussed to death pretty much ever since FW started. The best we got was at fanfest a dev noted that they realized the rats were unbalanced.
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Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.10 05:50:00 -
[9]
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes exist to fight in. Wrong. They exist to fight OVER.
If your approach to the plexes is the latter, you would look and find ways to indeed fight in plexes effectively and win no matter the npcs or odds. For example in your case, use Gallente strengths against Caldari jamming. Unleash drones and who cares if you are jammed. Opponent escapes? Who cares? Your objective is the plex not the kill, that is just the icing on the cake. If the other guy wants it as bad as you do, he will be back and if your drones have cleared the npcs by then maybe you can get him too as well.
Unfortunatelly most players do not care about capturing the plex but getting the kill. But this is not the players' fault. It is CCP's as there are no real tangible incentives to fight over plexes except bragging rights and RP reasons. And there lies the true failure of FW.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 06:03:00 -
[10]
Fair enough - I fall under the "plexes exist to fight in category".
Having said that, even if you take your view of what plexing is, the rats are still quite unbalanced. Ofc, coming from a "fight in" viewpoint, I'd just like to remove rats, or nerf rats (as opposed to buffing the weak rats).
I will cherish the rarity of an internet debate that ended in at least the understanding of viewpoints :)
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Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.10 06:29:00 -
[11]
Originally by: chatgris
Fair enough - I fall under the "plexes exist to fight in category".
Having said that, even if you take your view of what plexing is, the rats are still quite unbalanced. Ofc, coming from a "fight in" viewpoint, I'd just like to remove rats, or nerf rats (as opposed to buffing the weak rats).
I will cherish the rarity of an internet debate that ended in at least the understanding of viewpoints :)
There is nothing wrong from your viewpoint other than it is the same viewpoint third parties to FW have such as pirates :)
Regading Caldari npcs being "stronger" due to ecm/missiles, well according to prime fiction the Caldari war machine is second to none. As for removing/nerf rats, I stand by my opinion that on the contrary they need buffing. Wouldn't you like to have Gallente npcs webbing/neuting/RRing etc? It would also be fair though that Gallente npcs were made to unleash drones, and lots of them og different varieties(webbing jamming etc).
Having npcs unleashing drones will open a whole new can of worms though...Wait...Was that a collective missioner scream I just heard?
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 06:37:00 -
[12]
Edited by: chatgris on 10/06/2010 06:37:09
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Wouldn't you like to have Gallente npcs webbing/neuting/RRing etc? It would also be fair though that Gallente npcs were made to unleash drones, and lots of them og different varieties(webbing jamming etc).
No. Plexes are a mechanism I would like to pvp in (solo, small gang). Having rats like that on my side would chase away both enemies and pirates, both of which I always am hoping will enter the plex for some pvp.
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Having npcs unleashing drones will open a whole new can of worms though...Wait...Was that a collective missioner scream I just heard?
No, I think that was the scream of the guys who manage server load though ;)
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.10 06:44:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jin Nib on 10/06/2010 06:45:52
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes exist to fight in. Wrong. They exist to fight OVER.
That perception comes about because there is no reason, no motivation, for fighting over a plex. It doesn't do anything but alter some words at the corner of your screen as you fly on through. As such, if you go to a plex, or are spending time doing it, the reason becomes to pick a fight. If they had any tangible value of some form at all, then I might agree with you that they are something to fight over (although even then I'd still argue that the purpose is to encourage fighting).
Edit: Also they are more boring then missions, which is an achievement all it self.
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.10 06:53:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jin Nib
Edited by: Jin Nib on 10/06/2010 06:45:52
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes exist to fight in. Wrong. They exist to fight OVER.
That perception comes about because there is no reason, no motivation, for fighting over a plex. It doesn't do anything but alter some words at the corner of your screen as you fly on through. As such, if you go to a plex, or are spending time doing it, the reason becomes to pick a fight. If they had any tangible value of some form at all, then I might agree with you that they are something to fight over (although even then I'd still argue that the purpose is to encourage fighting).
Edit: Also they are more boring then missions, which is an achievement all it self.
Ahem. We actually agree. Last part of my post you were quoting:
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Unfortunatelly most players do not care about capturing the plex but getting the kill. But this is not the players' fault. It is CCP's as there are no real tangible incentives to fight over plexes except bragging rights and RP reasons. And there lies the true failure of FW.
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.10 07:00:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jin Nib on 10/06/2010 07:00:43
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Ahem. We actually agree. Last part of my post you were quoting:
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
Unfortunatelly most players do not care about capturing the plex but getting the kill. But this is not the players' fault. It is CCP's as there are no real tangible incentives to fight over plexes except bragging rights and RP reasons. And there lies the true failure of FW.
Indeed. Perhaps I should alter your statement to reflect this more accurately then: Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes exist to fight in. Wrong. They should exist to fight OVER.
Note: This forum timer is really annoying when trying to carry on a conversation, especially since they said they'd reduce it months ago.... (like FW has a chance if they don't even support the forums  )
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.06.10 07:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cearain
1) Do you think fw occupancy should be designed as pve centered activity or pvp centered activity?
2)Would you be more (or less) likely to want to do fw, if occupancy was determined by pvp instead of pve?
There is no unwritten rule saying "never the twain shall meet".
Several ways exist to combine them into something that is greater than the sum of the two:
- Let occupancy influence agent access/quality (the weaker solution)
- Let a fraction of the LP-for-Kills be counted as VP for system (idea growing on me).
- Let LP-for-Kills influence plex spawning mechanic (do we risk more plexes tomorrow in order to save those today?).
- etc.
As for the fighting in/over plexes, huh?
If you fight in a plex you are per definition fighting over the plex. The pirates who frequent the FW areas are just thrilled to have people to shoot and generally don't care if its on a gate, in a belt or in a plex, an un-triggered NPC spawn leaves plenty of time to gank someone, loot and get out with minimal fuss.
On the Minmatar front we have been fighting in and over plexes since day one (ebbs and flows), a contest that started out being driven by RP has become a generic grudge match and a battle of wills involving everyone RP and non-RP alike .. with extraordinary fights as a result (2hr long conflict over a single major plex, numerous reships and shifting holding-field = massive (and costly) fun.
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Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.10 07:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jin Nib
Indeed. Perhaps I should alter your statement to reflect this more accurately then: Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes exist to fight in. Wrong. They should exist to fight OVER.
We are in agreement on that but actually the below reflects more correctly what I was trying to convey:
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes are designed to fight in. Wrong. They were designed to be fought OVER.
And as with many CCP's designs there were a few flaws....
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.10 07:20:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
The problem with plexes is perception. The majority of people in FW and especailly in Gal/Caldari front think that plexes are designed to fight in. Wrong. They were designed to be fought OVER.
And as with many CCP's designs there were a few flaws....
There is no thumbs up emote on these forums, otherwise this is where I'd use it.
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Hidden Snake
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.06.10 08:15:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Hidden Snake on 10/06/2010 08:15:27
funny thing is that original implementation was much simpler and bugless and encouraged more pvp in plexes ... but they did tweaks and "fixes" and it is kinda broken.
SO CCP PLEASE FIRE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR FW DEVELOPMENT!
"There is no honor in war" |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 08:16:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hidden Snake
SO CCP PLEASE FIRE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR FW DEVELOPMENT!
I don't think there's anyone to fire ;)
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Hidden Snake
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.06.10 08:24:00 -
[21]
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: Hidden Snake
SO CCP PLEASE FIRE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR FW DEVELOPMENT!
I don't think there's anyone to fire ;)
I believe there is becaue, there are crippling it every patch
"There is no honor in war" |
Hidden Snake
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.06.10 08:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: chatgris
Originally by: Hidden Snake
SO CCP PLEASE FIRE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR FW DEVELOPMENT!
I don't think there's anyone to fire ;)
I believe there is becaue, there are crippling it every patch.
"There is no honor in war" |
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
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Posted - 2010.06.10 09:11:00 -
[23]
1.Remove NPCs from plexes
2.Make timer only start if there is a member of BOTH opposed forces on grid.
3.?????
4.Profit!
That way you never get to cap a plex without a fight.
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Ginger Lynn
Caldari
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2010.06.10 09:43:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Machiavelli's Nemesis
1.Remove NPCs from plexes
2.Make timer only start if there is a member of BOTH opposed forces on grid.
3.?????
4.Profit!
That way you never get to cap a plex without a fight.
First off:
http://xkcd.com/481/ <-This is you.
Read what you've written loud. Then realize this is eve and everyone got an alt.
Secondly. Yes for the love of god remove rats in fw plexes. You need a dedicated npc tanker to have a chance in opposing militias plexes else you can just packup and go; Not using a dedicated tanker for plexes is only common in the minorest plexes. Theres been plenty of times when its like 'Oh, sweet Ill try this guy on maybe I'll not get rat aggro and get jammed and dpsed to smitherins before I get to fight him' so now I dont even try going after people already inside a plex.
I was a caldari bear, now I fly the curse and still I suck, whats the problem here... |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 16:44:00 -
[25]
It's not clear that it would make the occupancy war pvp instead of pve centered. The pve portion is orbiting a button for "N" minutes.
Removing all npcs from plexes will lead to offensive afk plexing alts (as well as the current defensive ones).
Alerts are a great idea, but people will quit showing up after a while if there are no fights (when afk plexing alt bails).
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 18:45:00 -
[26]
I would like all of you who propose npc-free, ship-limited combat to start hanging out in the Python Cartel and Serpentis plexes in Naga (?) and Oicx for fights. These plexes are custom made for you to have Gladiator style combat. The rats are nerfed to hell and affect both sides equally.
Then, put a proposal in the Assembly Hall to have more of these permanent ship-limited combat arenas (of different sized of course) all over low-sec.
Having NPCs in plexes is great and adds for lots of interesting combat scenarios that wouldn't happen otherwise. What's not great is not knowing how many are currently in a plex before you enter it.
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.10 19:10:00 -
[27]
Originally by: X Gallentius
I would like all of you who propose npc-free, ship-limited combat to start hanging out in the Python Cartel and Serpentis plexes in Naga (?) and Oicx for fights. These plexes are custom made for you to have Gladiator style combat. The rats are nerfed to hell and affect both sides equally.
Then, put a proposal in the Assembly Hall to have more of these permanent ship-limited combat arenas (of different sized of course) all over low-sec.
Having NPCs in plexes is great and adds for lots of interesting combat scenarios that wouldn't happen otherwise. What's not great is not knowing how many are currently in a plex before you enter it.
It'd help if their AI was a little more dynamic. Once you have agro it sticks with you until you leave.
-Jin Nib
Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since:
2009.03.02 03:53:00
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.10 19:21:00 -
[28]
Well then one tanker and then you have npc free combat... what's the problem ? 
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Merdaneth
Amarr
Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2010.06.10 21:54:00 -
[29]
There have been plenty of creative and well-thought-out solution proposed over the last two years. As long as CCP doesn't have any team dedicated to it, it is really no use.
Even here we see old arguments rehashed and people thinking of simple solutions that have been proposed and proven not workable many times before.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.12 19:38:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dr BattleSmith
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof
NPCs are perceived by some to be the problem and they think it discourages pvp.
And yet pvp happens daily in these plexes
^^this.
Some seem to believe that plex = PvE and completely miss the point.
Some? What percent of fw kills are in plexes? Very few people I know want to pvp with unknown rats attacking their ships doing unknown amounts of damage.
Maybe you two like to do this. And maybe you two are correct in thinking that is a great way to pvp. (I doubt it but I admit I rarely do it because it is not what I am interested in at all) But at some point we have to recognize you guys are few and very far between. For the vast majority of eve players trying to combine pve and pvp fails. CCP should acknowledge this and make a good pvp mechanic in fw instead of continuing to tell everyone they are wrong and they should like to do pve and pvp at the same time.
As for those who say that just because you are in low sec you are doing pvp û I disagree. If I run missions or fw plexes and only take damage from rats and run from every other player that comes, then I am doing pve û not pvp. And yes you can do pve and pvp in any area of space in eve.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.12 19:50:00 -
[31]
Originally by: X Gallentius
It's not clear that it would make the occupancy war pvp instead of pve centered. The pve portion is orbiting a button for "N" minutes.
Removing all npcs from plexes will lead to offensive afk plexing alts (as well as the current defensive ones).
Alerts are a great idea, but people will quit showing up after a while if there are no fights (when afk plexing alt bails).
I think the semi afk plexing alts will end because they find they will have to keep bailing out before the timer runs. Now people can semi afk plex because no one outside of their system knows they are running a plex. But I would think you would keep getting interrupted if the opposing militia knew about what you were doing and where. You would basically just be doing the scanning for them and the pvpers would hold onto the plex. People who wanted to pvp would stay in the plexes that are found hoping enemies would come.
Neither of us can tell the future I would agree with that. But we *know* the current system lends itself to trying to sneak plexes in and running if enemy players come. I think the notifications would pretty much end this tactic.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.12 20:00:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Merdaneth
There have been plenty of creative and well-thought-out solution proposed over the last two years. As long as CCP doesn't have any team dedicated to it, it is really no use.
Even here we see old arguments rehashed and people thinking of simple solutions that have been proposed and proven not workable many times before.
I have to disagree here. I think this thread demonstrates that fw players donÆt really agree on much. The only thing we really agree on is to fix the bugs. Here we canÆt even agree on whether occupancy should mainly be a pvp or pve activity.
This proposal clearly makes occupancy a pvp activity. It eliminates the npcs and gives the players the info they need to keep occupancy. If players donÆt want to use the notifications to gain or defend occupancy that would be their choice but occupancy will be dependant on players not the environment û ie., strength of the rats.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.12 20:21:00 -
[33]
Originally by: X Gallentius
Well then one tanker and then you have npc free combat... what's the problem ?
The problem is you have to waste a ship out of your gang.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Eelis Kiy
Gallente
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.13 10:57:00 -
[34]
You can happily keep the current system if CCP would just give some attention to ironing out the exploits/holes and then give system control some tangible meaning.
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>>where the frack is my ship?<< |
Flashh Gorden
COLD-Wing
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Posted - 2010.06.14 14:29:00 -
[35]
I dont think there is a great deal wrong with the plexes.
Whats lacking is the effect or lack of effect when one side wins or loses a system.
losing a system should have a serious negative effect on the side losing the system an effect that cannot be ignored.
If not a single system then at least a constelation or region.
FW missions should be scrapped and loyalty points awarded for capturing systems. If you lose a system the losing milita should lose loyalty points and those points go to the other side. Lose an entire region should resault in complete loss of all loyalty points.
The points for each side should be held in a pool and paid out monthly after subtractions and additions for occupancy changes have been made.
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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.14 15:03:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Cearain on 14/06/2010 15:08:50
In response to the last 2 posts.
There are 2 basic ways to encourage people to fight for occupancy.
1) Make the activity fun in itself.
2) Reward the activity.
By making the occupancy more of a pvp activity we would be going for the first approach. It would make fighting for occupancy a fun game mechanic. So even though the rewards aren't great people will do it. That is how pvp in eve works. Right now fighting for occupancy like most pve activities is a grind so you feel you should be entitled to some additional reward.
You guys are going with the second approach. They are not mutually exclusive but there are problems with rewarding the side that wins occupancy. These problems come up every time a proposal to make occupancy meaningful comes up. They include 1) if occupancy gives you an advantage than everyone will just continue to join the winning side. 2) If you give awards across the board then people will just have do nothing alts in the militias. 3) Its no longer for casual players - Alarm clock ops.
I do think CCP could give a boost to the lp for doing occupancy plexes. However, if they did that with the current mechanic that would just encourage the optimum way to take plexes. Right now the optimum way is to go out in pve ships hope the enemy doesnÆt notice you and warp off if he stumbles on you. Not exactly what I would call a good way to introduce people to pvp.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Major GaIdari
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Posted - 2010.06.14 16:58:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Major GaIdari on 14/06/2010 17:00:07
How about make it so it is a little more dynamic, PvE and PvP.
For example, there is a Gallente trying to cap a Caldari plex (like this ever happens anyway?  ).
As the timer ticks down for the Gallente pilot, rats would spawn as normal. Unless there is a Caldari pilot on grid, in which case Caldari rats will cease to spawn. Or in another situation, if a Caldari alt is idling while defensive capping plexes, no rats will spawn if a Gallente enters until that caldari leaves and the next "Normal time for rat spawn" occurs.
After typing this I realize its got a bit of problems, but any thoughts? (Just bored at work tbh)
EDIT: FFFFFUUUU joke alts... oh well my main will be a secret :)
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Eelis Kiy
Gallente
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.14 19:17:00 -
[38]
I would dissagree a little - there is already plenty of pvp going on in plexes, so forcing it to be pvp to cap wouldn't make much difference in that respect (in my opinion). I think you would just end up with the same camps of people who plex continuing to do so. I don't see it would encourage others in for the reward of pvp so much, not saying it wouldnt make a difference but there seems to be to be a massive group of players who would rather roam for pvp than go for it in a plex.
But making the reward something tangible, you encourage more people into the plex, to pve or whatever it needs. And by proxy that would make it more pvp related as the chances of people wanting to defend against that person taking a plex would also be higher.
My take on it anyway. Bit of swings and round-a-bouts i guess. Any change could be good. Mostly I think CCP need to start listening to the FW players
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>>where the frack is my ship?<< |
Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.14 20:36:00 -
[39]
Eilis
I agree with allot of what you say. Sure if the rewards increase more people will do the activity û no matter how dull. But there are some problems with increasing the rewards for occupancy û I listed a few in my last post. So I think itÆs better to simply make the activity itself more fun.
You say "but there seems to be to be a massive group of players who would rather roam for pvp than go for it in a plex." I agree. I happen to be one of that massive group of players. I can give you the reasons why I, and most people I know, roam for pvp instead of going in plexes:
1) In plexes either you or your opponent has to deal with npcs. If you have to deal with them that means you have to gimp your fit to deal with them which means you will almost always lose to an equal opponent. Its sort of like deciding to go pvp with an empty mid and low slot. If you have the npcs on your side no one will mess with you unless they have overwhelming strength. Its very hard to know just how much damage the npcs will do. They have odd names and who really knows how they are fit? So they just add uncertainty and makes tactics less applicable. This uncertainty leads to less pvp. If everyone wanted to have pvp with lots of uncertainty no one would use scouts.
2) I have tried going into a plex killed the rats and sat there waiting. Crickets chirp. Why? Well no one knows I'm there!
So I just sit and wait. Sometimes people will come but usually the ships they come in are a mismatch for what I'm flying. So one or the other warps off. But usually you just sit and wait. This is not worth the wife agro for spending a night playing a computer game.
3) Even if they know I am there they will probably assume I am plexing in an optimal way. That is they will assume that if they bother to warp over to the plex I will just warp away anyway. That is how plexing is most often done with the current mechanics. This is because often you will not be found by the other side before the timer runs.
ItÆs for these reasons that you will get many more pvp fights outside of plexes. Just ignore them. Try to find people at gates or what have you. You have to keep jumping from system to system trying to find a like sized or smaller enemy gang. ItÆs pretty fun.
But itÆs really the same sort of pvp you can get anywhere in eve. FW has the potential to have a whole new mechanism for pvp. Indeed, I think fw has the potential to be the very best mechanism for pvp thanks to plexes and hull size restrictions. ItÆs a shame itÆs all but wasted.
You say there already is allot of pvp in plexes. Well let me ask you the same question I ask everyone that says this. What percent of fw pvp kills do you think are in plexes? As for me I donÆt think I ever died in one and I may have had 3 kills in plexes. (although I think they may have been in mission plexes not occupancy plexes) So itÆs about 1% of the fw pvp occur in plexes by my best guess.
If we didnÆt have to f around with npcs and we simply knew when and where others were taking plexes I think we would have over 50% of fw pvp happening in plexes. Why would you go roaming around when you know exactly where the enemy pvp gangs are? You would have all sorts of pvp fights at these plexes from solo to epic battles. And you would get them in droves.
I appreciate you and everyone else who continues to consider these ideas. FW can be the best game mechanic for pvp EVE has ever seen, it just needs a couple of tweaks.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.06.14 22:00:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Cearain
1) In plexes either you or your opponent has to deal with npcs.
I have not once PvE fitted a plexing ship, not when solo and not when in gang. If you are deliberately gimping yourself by doing it then as they say "you are doing it wrong".
NPC's are a minor nuisance at best unless you managed to trigger the spawn previously. They will not move and they do not spawn until an enemy enters capture range.
Originally by: Cearain
2) I have tried going into a plex killed the rats and sat there waiting. Crickets chirp. Why? Well no one knows I'm there!
And you think a notification system is the way to solve it? What happens when 20 people all start plexes in systems all over the place .. you will have zero idea of who is where and in what without scrolling feverishly trying to keep up with the spam.
Then when you finally decide on a notification to respond to the frigate that caused it warps to a new plex/system .. ad nauseum.
Originally by: Cearain
3) Even if they know I am there they will probably assume I am plexing in an optimal way.
And removing NPCs will accomplish what exactly? You will still have 90% of plexes being taken by solo frigates only now they can be afk both offensively and defensively .. that is a change for the worse, not better. NPCs should be equipped to prevent the solo frigate, not removed.
Originally by: Cearain
You say there already is allot of pvp in plexes. Well let me ask you the same question I ask everyone that says this.
As far as my kills are concerned I think 70-80% of all my deaths/kills (340/2300) have been inside plexes. It is something that is quite common on the Minmatar/Amarr front, but then again we have some rather aggressive plexing contingents (RP/Grudge = Pewpew).
- Restrict the area where plexing has an effect (ie. create an actual frontline) and you bypass the whole notification spammage with same end result - you know where they are.
- Remove all eWar from NPC and perhaps tweak the AI so that they don't shoot on militias if an allied pod pilot is on the scene.
- Expand the warp-in point to full gate size, 15km sphere so that assaulting a plex does not equate suicide.
- Convert a portion (10-20%) of LP-for-Kills to System VP with the one caveat that a kill cannot flip.
- Sort the plex spawn mechanic.
- Give NPCs tools to deal with solo frigates, either through better AI, webs (bad for all though) or require proper shipclass for a given plex for timer to run.
Summary: Your suggested NPC removal and notification system is a major setback for FW and will result in even more alt plexing and much less actual PvP.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.14 22:41:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
- Remove all eWar from NPC and perhaps tweak the AI so that they don't shoot on militias if an allied pod pilot is on the scene.
- Expand the warp-in point to full gate size, 15km sphere so that assaulting a plex does not equate suicide.
- Sort the plex spawn mechanic.
- Give NPCs tools to deal with solo frigates, either through better AI, webs (bad for all though) or require proper shipclass for a given plex for timer to run.
I was about to ask what faction you plex against - because the caldari NPC's with their ECM and 100km missile spam are often far deadlier than the players.
But then I saw these suggestions, and I stopped my flame post :)
However - on the topic of frontlines vs notifications.
Frontlines are BAD. They minimize the number of systems you can plex in - and the more systems, the more pressure on the blob to split up. I think notifications would be great. The hectic nature "Zomg they are plexing in 20 different systems" would be a force that would favour splitting the blob into smaller parts to go after each plexer, rather than frontlines which would have fewer systems to plex in, and therefore it rewards the blob.
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Annie Anomie
Gallente
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.14 23:11:00 -
[42]
I tend to agree that FW occupancy should much more heavily involve PVP.
"Fighting" over a system with no other players present is ridiculous.
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cearaen
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Posted - 2010.06.15 00:31:00 -
[43]
Edited by: cearaen on 15/06/2010 00:33:22
BTW this is the same person as Cearain
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
And removing NPCs will accomplish what exactly? You will still have 90% of plexes being taken by solo frigates only now they can be afk both offensively and defensively .. that is a change for the worse, not better. NPCs should be equipped to prevent the solo frigate, not removed.
à..
As far as my kills are concerned I think 70-80% of all my deaths/kills (340/2300) have been inside plexes. It is something that is quite common on the Minmatar/Amarr front, but then again we have some rather aggressive plexing contingents (RP/Grudge = Pewpew)
Well 70-80% seems high. I mean looking through your kills and losses its hard to find any of them where we see npcs contributing to the damage at all. Every time I found someone in a plex either they or I ended up taking some damage from npcs in order to f-up the killmail.
Eg.,
http://eve-arena.com/encounters/2002696/
But you have been playing for a long time and probably mainly do plexing so I am not going to jump to any conclusions other than say I think thats qis very unusual.
I have looked through some of your fits and yes I agree they are pvp fits. Pvp fits that demonstrate a fondness for an armor repper, but whatever.
How will removing npcs change anything? IÆm not sure how it will for you. Since I donÆt know how it is that you seem to get in so many PVP fights in plexes without the npcs attacking anyone. Removing npcs will make those like myself and others who actually get attacked by npcs when they go in plexes more willing to pvp in plexes.
If your intent is to take away the ewar on the npcs and thereby weaken them even more than they are already I donÆt see what purpose they serve. You say they should keep a frigate from running a plex. How exactly do you do that in a way that wouldnÆt make it so gangs canÆt bring frigates in as tacklers?
NPCs either have no effect or they dampen pvp. If the militia players are made aware of the plexes being taken the npcs arenÆt necessary or really appropriate. The players should win the war not the npcs.
Tweaking the AI so that they don't shoot on militias if an allied pod pilot is on the scene, might be a good compromise. But you would still have the issue of being at half shields when the enemy arrives. People wouldnÆt be able to cap plexes in a frigate if the other militia defended the plexes when they were notified of the plex being capped. If they militia chose to ignore the notifications and allow people to cap majors in frigates - well then yeah they would lose. But who would they have to blame for losing other than themselves?
I agree with Chatgris on your frontline idea. Spreading out the area of the fight will force blobs to break up. Restricting the areas just rewards blobbing. In my original proposal I took one of your examples and explained how blobs would be split up if people where notified where everyone was and you had a large area to cover. Do you agree with my analysis?
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cearaen
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Posted - 2010.06.15 00:37:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
And you think a notification system is the way to solve it? What happens when 20 people all start plexes in systems all over the place .. you will have zero idea of who is where and in what without scrolling feverishly trying to keep up with the spam.
Then when you finally decide on a notification to respond to the frigate that caused it warps to a new plex/system .. ad nauseum.
To address your first paragraph: I donÆt think you understand the proposal. You would be informed of who entered the plex where the plex is and what they are flying. Feverish scrolling wouldnÆt be necessary. ô22:18 Amarr pilot Veshta Yoshida flew harbinger into major in Arzad.ö It could even be shorter and say: ô22:18 Amarr: Veshta Yoshida; harbinger; major; Arzadö So you would have more than a zero idea of who is where and in what.
Now then after time you would get to know how likely that person is to have another gang close or to be solo. If they often fight solo you could head over in your battlecruiser to fight for the plex. If they bring a gang and you are with a gang you could scout out the system and send an *appropriate* force to deal with them. You wouldnÆt want to send a huge blob because then you wouldnÆt have other ships to send to other systems.
If 20 pilots start plexes all over the place you would be certain to get some great pew pew fast. That would mean in a system by me I would know that there are enemies and what they are flying so I could go get some pew pew. If I needed to ship up or down I could do that before the timer is up. Different militias might have some bases/jump clones at different hqs with ships if they really wanted to get organized. This would involve more strategy than the typical ôlets get the biggest gang we can and start clomping aroundö
Now when people plex you have to jump from system to system hoping to find them and find out what they are in. Usually by the time you get there the gangs are a mismatch so no pvp happens.
To address the second paragraph: Well if the frigate warps I would thank him for doing the scanning for me and sit in the plex myself. I would know the other side knows where I am and what I am flying so if someone wanted to come fight they could come in a comparable gang and we could fight for the plex. If they came in an overpowered gang I would at least be happy in knowing I forced them to divert pilots from other plexes.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2010.06.15 02:33:00 -
[45]
This whole thread seems to be a caldari/gallente specific issue and mostly related to NPC ECM abilities.
If you want to see PvP plexing it's really simple.
You don't need alerts.
All you need to do is make a concerted effort to stop a system from being captured.
If your enemy is trying very hard to capture a system and you are trying very hard to defend it,
then you'll see many great plex fights after downtime each and every night.
These plex fights can be awesome and even when numbers become unbalanced plex
selection can be used to draw out the right fights.
As for plex spawning mechanics being broken and NPC ewar being unbalanced, this has been known since day-one.
In another 5-6 years when FW gets another coder assigned maybe CCP will fix it.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.06.15 10:18:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 15/06/2010 10:18:59
Originally by: chatgris
I was about to ask what faction you plex against...
I serve the Empire, so we get TP, Web + Missile spam, even worse than ECM + Missile spam as you cannot even rely on speed/signature to stay alive
"Frontline" does not mean that plexes only spawn there, merely that it is the only systems that can be flipped. All systems can be made contested to the point of flipping, but are only 'in play' if adjacent to an enemy system (or two deep perhaps).
Read my now geriatric proposal from last year for the full picture .. lots of factors to include so wont do it here.
Originally by: cearaen
... But you would still have the issue of being at half shields when the enemy arrives...
Buffer tanks are the seed of Satan as far as I am concerned, you make a conscious choice when fitting so you lose the privilege of making that argument.
I use local repair whenever feasible to negate any drone/npc damage that might weaken me prior or during an attack .. works wonders as long as the numberrs involved are not excessive - solo/small-gang for the win.
Originally by: cearaen
Well 70-80% seems high. I mean looking through your kills and losses its hard to find any of them where we see npcs contributing to the damage at all.
Kind of my point, once you understand how NPCs react and what kind of engagement envelope they have, avoiding interference from them becomes very easy (plus I gank fit when possible so they never get much done damage wise  )
Originally by: cearaen
Removing npcs will make those like myself and others who actually get attacked by npcs when they go in plexes more willing to pvp in plexes.
What is it that makes you think that plexing will suddenly be done by PvP'ers and not the swarm of alt frigates that we see currently?
The lack of plex-PvP is due to the jittery frigates being the easiest way of doing it, not the presence of NPCs ..
Originally by: cearaen
How exactly do you do that in a way that wouldnÆt make it so gangs canÆt bring frigates in as tacklers?
AI dependent on ally presence, restrict capture to "appropriate" hull size .. already wrote that. There are numerous ways of doing it.
Originally by: cearaen
To address your first paragraph: I donÆt think you understand the proposal.
That is just it I understand it perfectly.
Let me spell it out for you:
- 20 frigates open and start 20 plexes spread over a wide area.
- Defending militia scrolls through the 20 reports and send out a couple of squads to some promising sites.
- Frigate leaves system as squads enter plex and opens a new plex elsewhere .. ad nauseum.
- A few days pass and defending militia closes the report channel in disgust and goes back to camping gates/stations, run mission, ie. status quo.
= Zero additional plex-PvP, systems changing hands willy-nilly (no NPCs remember, so an hour old character can offensive plex) and CCP wasted countless hours that could have been used to make FW actually worth a damn.
That is reality. Sure you can probably find some good fights, but you can do that now as well.
The notification idea also does not address the fact that you cannot know if there is a massive blob waiting on acceleration gate to smack you around .. has to be scouted so you are no better off compared to now (assuming militia keeps semi-running reports of enemy movement like we do).
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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.15 16:48:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 15/06/2010 10:18:59
Let me spell it out for you:
- 20 frigates open and start 20 plexes spread over a wide area.
- Defending militia scrolls through the 20 reports and send out a couple of squads to some promising sites.
- Frigate leaves system as squads enter plex and opens a new plex elsewhere .. ad nauseum.
- A few days pass and defending militia closes the report channel in disgust and goes back to camping gates/stations, run mission, ie. status quo.
So we are to blame the intel channel for this? That is blaming the messenger. In the current system this can happen the only difference is the defending side doesnÆt even know the frigates are there. ItÆs like your arguing ignorance is bliss.
That said here is what a defending militia can do. Instead of sending a couple of ôsquadsö to fight a lone frigate he can send a frigate/destroyer or two himself. Maybe he should split his own gang up 20 ways and fight the fight. ThatÆs right, this mechanic would actually *favor* breaking up the larger groups in favor of smaller groups. I.e., its an anti-blob mechanic.
If the other side kept sending frigates who ran even from a single frigate a single ôcoward chaserö would ruin their day. A single pilot in a frigate could chase them out and then he could do the plex himself. When the coward frigate pops up elsewhere he could go over there and chase him out of there before he can run that plex too. The minor plexes take like 10 minutes to run so if your notified at the entrance a militia can, if they choose, defend the plexs. They could also reset the plex timers if someone went out of range. That would completely ruin this strategy. But I do not think this will not be an issue.
Of course militias that work together well will do better. But that is because there would now be some strategy involved other than ôlets get in a big gang and go blobbingö If you happen to be outmanned at the time you can try to spread out and see if you can catch the enemy for short times when you may be able to have superior numbers. You may have different fleets running at different areas to try to join battles at the right times thoughout the map.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 15/06/2010 10:18:59
What is it that makes you think that plexing will suddenly be done by PvP'ers and not the swarm of alt frigates that we see currently?
The intel channel.
The people who go plexing with alts in frigs are not out to take on all comers. They are hoping no one will come into the plex before it runs. With the current system they are often correct. This hide and seek plexing is an effective way to go now, *because no one knows they are there.* If we had an intel channel no one could expect to do ôhide and seekö plexing anymore. Because their attack on the plex would be broadcast to the militias û as it should be.
As far as npcs I do not think we are that far apart but I would still much prefer to just do away with them. Let the players decide if they want to fight for the occupancy.
In the end you want npcs to help fight the war. You admit you add those reppers to your ship in order to help with the npc damage. You say buffer tanks are satan. Well the fact is allot of ( I dare say most) good pvp fits are buffer tanks. They are not very good when you have rats taking half your tank though. So you seem to concede you canÆt just use any pvp fit you want. You have to pve it up a bit. I think that sucks. But whatever.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Draco Rosso
Caldari
Draconian Armada
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Posted - 2010.06.15 17:39:00 -
[48]
How about a ôTerritorial Notification Unitö or TNU to help with the felicitate pvp in faction warfare?
The basics:
Each faction warfare corp. is only allowed to install one TNU in their perspective low sec theater on a planet; much like an I-hub in null sec. meaning a Caldari corp. canÆt install a TNU in the Mimitar-Amarr theater.
In order to obtain a TNU a corp. must obtain a certain amount of victory points. IÆll let the c.c.p figure out the balance for this.
The scan range of the TNU will base on light years, the equivalent of two to five systems. The exact range of the TNU will up to c.c.p determine. But I believe that light years is the best way to measure the scan range distance.
Notifications:
The notifications will activate when hostile faction warfare target enters the capture range of a friendly complex.
The exact intel that the notifications contains needs to be discussed further. Another thing that needs to be hashed out in regards to intel is how much control will the CEO have of the notifications. I think the CEO should be able to determine who gets the notification based on corp. member roles.
The notification will also be sent if the actual complex npcs come under hostile fire from neutrals. The neutrals will take a faction hit for such actions, but they might get a fight out of it.
Destroying a TNU:
A TNU will become vulnerable when a certain amount of complexes are captured. The idea is that the TNU will become vulnerable before the system bunker does. This will give the corp. extra incentive to maintain their systems uncontested.
If a corp. installs a in TNU in hostile space the TNU will always be vulnerable to attack, this idea however needs to be further finessed. The basic idea is that corps can install TNUÆs in hostile systems but they have higher risk for doing so.
The TNU hit points will have to be balanced around the system bunker.
The TNU will only be lockable be members of Faction Warfare.
The goal for such a unit is to break up the main staging systems in Faction Warfare and spread them out all over low sec. This will also train new corporations how to survive in low sec and will give them extra training for null sec.
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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.15 18:23:00 -
[49]
Draco
I'm afraid your suggestions may allow one side to keep steamrolling the losing side. Get a blob and kill the intel unit.
But its similar to what I propose as an intel channel. I just don't think the intel units should be necessary.
The thing is occupancy plexes spawn in *contested* systems. To me "contested" means both factions have established a presence there so both should automatically be able to communicate what goes on there with the militia. The current system is unrealistic. Especially when an offensive plex is being taken. None of the rats communicate this to the rest of the militia? Its very odd.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Draco Rosso
Caldari
Draconian Armada
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Posted - 2010.06.15 19:04:00 -
[50]
My suggestion is an additional dimension to faction warfare. The TNU are optimal and don't count towards the system occupancy.
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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.18 20:24:00 -
[51]
Draco
I think that would be a good idea. Anything that lets us know where we can find a fight is helpful.
But are these just for defensive plexes? I mean when Gallente were overrun and had no systems would they be able to put any of these up?
I would like it that the ceo could choose to share this information with others in the militia automatically if he chose. Anything that would let us know where and in what general ships people are plexing would make the game more fun and lead to more pvp.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Ackwell
Caldari
Tiera Javelin Ltd.
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Posted - 2010.06.21 07:54:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Cearain
2) immediately alert militia players via a separate channel when and where occupancy related plexes are being entered and by whom and ship types.
You have been playing All Points Bulletin (APB), haven't you?
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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.25 08:16:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ackwell
Originally by: Cearain
2) immediately alert militia players via a separate channel when and where occupancy related plexes are being entered and by whom and ship types.
You have been playing All Points Bulletin (APB), haven't you?
Nope had to google it to find out what your talking about. Do they do something similar?
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Archestratidas
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Posted - 2010.06.25 22:04:00 -
[54]
The question of whether fw occupancy should be pve or pvp based misses the point. Until fw occupancy actually has an ingame mechanical effect, it simply doesn't matter to anyone but the lolRP crowd and they'll engage in whatever mechanic is necessary to sate their RP-conscience.
Make it so that people can't take fw missions from agents in systems occupied by the opposing side and you might see more action.
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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.06.26 13:25:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Archestratidas
The question of whether fw occupancy should be pve or pvp based misses the point. Until fw occupancy actually has an ingame mechanical effect, it simply doesn't matter to anyone but the lolRP crowd and they'll engage in whatever mechanic is necessary to sate their RP-conscience.
Make it so that people can't take fw missions from agents in systems occupied by the opposing side and you might see more action.
I disagree with the first part. Lowsec PVP in general has no in game mechanical effect. Yet lots of people do that. They pvp because itÆs fun, not because they need to pvp to get missions.
There are 2 ways to get people to engage in an activity. 1) reward it or 2) make it fun. The occupancy mechanic was supposed to be fun enough that people would do it despite the low rewards. Its not. But it could be. AcidsniperÆs proposal would make it fun enough that people would do it.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
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