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What is the one true weakness of minmatar ships?

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Ziven0x Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:56:00 - [31] Minmatar pretty much operate solely in fall off range which means their damage changes as they move closer / farther. Overall they require more skills to use efficiently(shield and armor tank). For the most part their battleships are somewhat lacking (there are still good fits, but not as general purpose as say...amarr). Most ships have relatively lower tank than the same class in another race (cane vs drake). etc etc
RuleoftheBone Minmatar The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:02:00 - [32] Since when does tourney resemble reality of combat ops on TQ? Shortcomings (play to strengths) would be training investment required, mediocre ewar (lolpainters and nerfed webs), and split weapons...and probably the ugliest T3 ship in game
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:13:00 - [33] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Since when does tourney resemble reality of combat ops on TQ? This. I really hope people don't start thinking Minmatar ships are superior in real world PvP based off their prevalent usage and apparent superiority in the tournament.
Cozmik R5 Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:22:00 - [34] Originally by: Moonmonkey Split weapon systems. Split slot lay out, making for a weaker tank. Our ships are ammo-tanked ____________________ Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.
Henry Valkyn	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:27:00 - [35] I want to go solo PvPing -> Minmatar I want to go small-gang roaming -> Minmatar I want to go suicide ganking -> Minmatar I want to OUTTRACK AN INTERCEPTOR GOING 4,8 KM/s ORBITING ME effectively at 21km -> Minmatar I want to engage a Zealot (mentioned in this thread) in my Vagabond/Cynabal in a 1vs1 -> Minmatar + ECM drones I want to be able to dps a target with highdamage ammo with differing resistance from either 2km to 50km -> Minmatar I want a ship with a large shield buffer that has a racial bonus to the lowest shield resist along with having lowslots empty for tracking enhancers and damage mods -> Minmatar If someone tracking disrupts me -> I laugh and nano away In short: There are too many 'outs' for a Minmatar pilot. You never really commit as you do with another race as you with most ships NEED to get within scrambling/web range to exploit Caldari/Amarr/Gallente benefits, something that is not the case with Minmatar. And yes, there are some areas where Minmatar may not be the best... but looking at overall performance in small/medium-gang pvp (where skills count, not just heavy lag and tons of cap ships) the Minmatar ships have it better off at the moment. They can to a much higher degree control the engagements and if they encounter fierce resistance, they nano or warp off. There are too many benefits in regards to the current Tranq pvp situation that apply to these ships compared to disadvantages.
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Henry Valkyn I want to go solo PvPing -> Minmatar I want to go small-gang roaming -> Minmatar I want to go suicide ganking -> Minmatar I want to OUTTRACK AN INTERCEPTOR GOING 4,8 KM/s ORBITING ME effectively at 21km -> Minmatar I want to engage a Zealot (mentioned in this thread) in my Vagabond/Cynabal in a 1vs1 -> Minmatar + ECM drones I want to be able to dps a target with highdamage ammo with differing resistance from either 2km to 50km -> Minmatar I want a ship with a large shield buffer that has a racial bonus to the lowest shield resist along with having lowslots empty for tracking enhancers and damage mods -> Minmatar If someone tracking disrupts me -> I laugh and nano away you don't actually play this game do you? it's ok. you can admit it, we won't make fun of you. if you do, you must be TERRIBLE at it -- A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.
Zverofaust Gallente Locus Industries	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:44:00 - [37] The way I look at it is that Minmatar have far too effective combination of all the most important PVP attributes you look for in a ship. The combination of mobility, maneuverability, tank and damage output far exceeds any other race. From an individual aspect point of view, Caldari ships may have better tanks, Gallente may do more DPS and Amarr may be able to shoot further but all of those are easily countered by Minmatar's natural strengths. Amarr and Gallente suffer horribly from cap warfare which Minmatar excel at; and Caldari are exceptionally easy to simply avoid. A 1600mm plated Hurricane with no nanomods still easily outruns all but the most ridiculous nano battlecruiser fits of all other races (and being such ridiculous nano fits their speed doesn't matter because they die horribly). Even the "high dps" only works for frigates and battleships; everything else is basically pointless. The only way to get any sort of DPS advantage in a Myrm or Brutix or Thorax or Vexor is to completely abandon any tank whatsoever, so they get pretty stomped. Anyway, BUFF GALLENTE ___________________________________________ The Hero of Kamela The Terror of Tararan The Executioner of Ezzara
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Zverofaust The way I look at it is that Minmatar have far too effective combination of all the most important PVP attributes you look for in a ship. The combination of mobility, maneuverability, tank and damage output far exceeds any other race. From an individual aspect point of view, Caldari ships may have better tanks, Gallente may do more DPS and Amarr may be able to shoot further but all of those are easily countered by Minmatar's natural strengths. Amarr and Gallente suffer horribly from cap warfare which Minmatar excel at; and Caldari are exceptionally easy to simply avoid. A 1600mm plated Hurricane with no nanomods still easily outruns all but the most ridiculous nano battlecruiser fits of all other races (and being such ridiculous nano fits their speed doesn't matter because they die horribly). Even the "high dps" only works for frigates and battleships; everything else is basically pointless. The only way to get any sort of DPS advantage in a Myrm or Brutix or Thorax or Vexor is to completely abandon any tank whatsoever, so they get pretty stomped. Anyway, BUFF GALLENTE you don't actually play this game do you? it's ok. you can admit it, we won't make fun of you. if you do, you must be TERRIBLE at it (i would like to see either a cap reduction or tracking boost for blasters. so i'll give you that) -- A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:48:00 - [39] Ok, now you can stop looking like someone who never played the game and explain why Minmatar are the least played race. Also, since I also play with Caldari, I have almost to punch myself to play something where I have to be up to the enemy's butt all the time or I get 1/4 of the damage out. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Aralieus Amarr The Inf1dels En Garde	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:48:00 - [40] Tracking Disruptor Fortune favors the bold!!! Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken-Tyler Durden

Henry Valkyn	Posted - 2010.06.21 00:54:00 - [41] Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia edit: seriously to both of the above posters, i'll try to be nice and explain. have either of you actually flown minmatar ships? (try not to lie) I fly all 4 race's ships and have for years. I find it difficult anyone could actually make those statements and also have any idea what they are talking about unless they are intentionally slanting their argument or trolling. You didn't really explain anything at all. You just mentioned you fly 4 races and have for years after which you went onto a concluding statement, stating that our statements stated nothing of value (in your eyes). <3 'Statement'
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.21 00:59:00 - [42] Quote: Even the "high dps" only works for frigates and battleships; everything else is basically pointless. The only way to get any sort of DPS advantage in a Myrm or Brutix or Thorax or Vexor is to completely abandon any tank whatsoever, so they get pretty stomped. Right. Give me the vexors drone bonus instead of the projectile bonus on a typhoon. make it fair and cut it down to 5% to reflect the bonus the typhoon has on projectiles. That would be the wtfpwn bbq ship of the century. No, the damage is there you just aren't utilizing it. This is clearly a signature.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:00:00 - [43] Edited by: VicturusTeSaluto on 21/06/2010 01:00:58 Originally by: RuleoftheBone Since when does tourney resemble reality of combat ops on TQ? Shortcomings (play to strengths) would be training investment required, mediocre ewar (lolpainters and nerfed webs), and split weapons...and probably the ugliest T3 ship in game the predictable, pre-planned, pre-arranged, consensual fighting of the tournament does not have anything to do with the actual game... The truth is that minmatar has never recovered from the speed changes. What is the point of trying to kite your opponent when MWD's now accelerate at afterburner speed?
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:03:00 - [44] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Watching AT8, I was thinking: Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones. Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps. Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types. Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue. What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? Their weakness is supposed to be paper thin tanks, with their tanking ability smaller sig and faster speed compared to other races, from frigs vs frigs, to cruiser vs cruiser, to BS vs BS. This scaling broke down because speed got a nerf, and then minmatar were paper thin floating killmails, so they got HP buffed, thus unbalancing them considering how they are so offensively good. Their Optimal and falloff; Optimal is supposed to be the point whre you do the most hits, Optimal + tracking gets you higher hits if the enemy is closer, optimal + falloff gets you more hits as the target gets farther away. They're supposed to have crappy optimal, but great falloff, this is supposed to lead to a lower overall chance of hitting compared to other races, but a slower degradation in hitting ability over 1000's of meters beyond falloff. This also has proven untrue due to the fact that tracking trumps all and they gave outrageous tracking to drones and ACs and Arties, meaning the supposed weaknesses these mechanisms are supposed to have dont actually work due to a flaw in balancing the other stats. There's 1, repeat 1, frigate in the T1 lineup designed to be a suicide tackler. the rest are for COMBAT. so don't tell me to tackle when I'm in a combat T1 frig. OR tell CCP to fix their mess.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:18:00 - [45] Originally by: 1Ekrid1 Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Watching AT8, I was thinking: Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones. Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps. Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types. Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue. What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? Their weakness is supposed to be paper thin tanks, with their tanking ability smaller sig and faster speed compared to other races, from frigs vs frigs, to cruiser vs cruiser, to BS vs BS. This scaling broke down because speed got a nerf, and then minmatar were paper thin floating killmails, so they got HP buffed, thus unbalancing them considering how they are so offensively good. Their Optimal and falloff; Optimal is supposed to be the point whre you do the most hits, Optimal + tracking gets you higher hits if the enemy is closer, optimal + falloff gets you more hits as the target gets farther away. They're supposed to have crappy optimal, but great falloff, this is supposed to lead to a lower overall chance of hitting compared to other races, but a slower degradation in hitting ability over 1000's of meters beyond falloff. This also has proven untrue due to the fact that tracking trumps all and they gave outrageous tracking to drones and ACs and Arties, meaning the supposed weaknesses these mechanisms are supposed to have dont actually work due to a flaw in balancing the other stats. Very, very good post.
Ocih Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:37:00 - [46] Originally by: 1Ekrid1 Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Watching AT8, I was thinking: Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones. Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps. Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types. Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue. What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? Their weakness is supposed to be paper thin tanks, with their tanking ability smaller sig and faster speed compared to other races, from frigs vs frigs, to cruiser vs cruiser, to BS vs BS. This scaling broke down because speed got a nerf, and then minmatar were paper thin floating killmails, so they got HP buffed, thus unbalancing them considering how they are so offensively good. Their Optimal and falloff; Optimal is supposed to be the point whre you do the most hits, Optimal + tracking gets you higher hits if the enemy is closer, optimal + falloff gets you more hits as the target gets farther away. They're supposed to have crappy optimal, but great falloff, this is supposed to lead to a lower overall chance of hitting compared to other races, but a slower degradation in hitting ability over 1000's of meters beyond falloff. This also has proven untrue due to the fact that tracking trumps all and they gave outrageous tracking to drones and ACs and Arties, meaning the supposed weaknesses these mechanisms are supposed to have dont actually work due to a flaw in balancing the other stats. This and they pick and choose thier battles at liesure. Vaga and a Zealot uncloak at a gate. Zealot is obligated to fight if the Vaga decides he wants to. Vaga can just leave, Zealot can't make him engage. Every gate camp has 2 hurricanes. Down side? If there are no easy kills Matar get to play cloaky smacktalker for 6 hrs.
Plumpy McPudding Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:42:00 - [47] Minmatar? More like Winmatar. __________________________ Fear me for I have an insatiable appetite! Proprietor and inventor of Chocolate Chip Chocolate Donut flavored Ice Cream.
Aerilis Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:51:00 - [48] T2 Salvagers
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:52:00 - [49] Is it true that after years of being sub par the Minmatar finally have the more powerful ships ?
Ocih Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:02:00 - [50] Originally by: Balsak Is it true that after years of being sub par the Minmatar finally have the more powerful ships ? Yep, gratz. they are FotM. That should last 4 or 5 months in nerf bat EvE. So before they kill Matar again, consider a prudent nerf to all EvE. No more perma cloak AFK. Every 20 minutes or so you need to turn off your cloak and recycle it. Do it in warp, thats fine. But if you want to AFK camp a system? Tough. If you want to cloak camp a system do it staring at the screen.

Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:14:00 - [51] Originally by: Ocih So before they kill Matar again, consider a prudent nerf to all EvE. No more perma cloak AFK. Every 20 minutes or so you need to turn off your cloak and recycle it. Do it in warp, thats fine. But if you want to AFK camp a system? Tough. If you want to cloak camp a system do it staring at the screen. -Add on: Better idea. low m3 fuels for cloaks. Both are easily beaten by the simplest macro scripts ever invented. Hell a programmable keyboard could be setup to do it. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:16:00 - [52] Originally by: Ocih Edited by: Ocih on 21/06/2010 02:09:01 Originally by: Balsak Is it true that after years of being sub par the Minmatar finally have the more powerful ships ? Yep, gratz. they are FotM. That should last 4 or 5 months in nerf bat EvE. So before they kill Matar again, consider a prudent nerf to all EvE. No more perma cloak AFK. Every 20 minutes or so you need to turn off your cloak and recycle it. Do it in warp, thats fine. But if you want to AFK camp a system? Tough. If you want to cloak camp a system do it staring at the screen. -Add on: Better idea. low m3 fuels for cloaks. LoL nice, turn this thread from a Minmatar are OP thread to a nerf cloaks thread. Wouldn't bother me if they nerf Minmatar anyways. I always flew Minnie and always will bar a couple of other races ships for certain tasks. Besides, knowing how slow CCP are at fixing obvious overpowered things I really doubt Minmatar will be up on the nerf block any time soon. Going by CCPs latest trends in weapon and racial imbalance they tend to buff rather than nerf just like they did with Amarr and the projectile buff. Angel ships are a much bigger problem than Minnies.
Ocih Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:16:00 - [53] Edited by: Ocih on 21/06/2010 02:19:32 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Ocih So before they kill Matar again, consider a prudent nerf to all EvE. No more perma cloak AFK. Every 20 minutes or so you need to turn off your cloak and recycle it. Do it in warp, thats fine. But if you want to AFK camp a system? Tough. If you want to cloak camp a system do it staring at the screen. -Add on: Better idea. low m3 fuels for cloaks. Both are easily beaten by the simplest macro scripts ever invented. Hell a programmable keyboard could be setup to do it. Yep. 100% true. CCP 0/ Macro warriors 2045 Lets do what we always do. Nothing. - Sorry for the hijack. Its my forward thinking. Waaah, waah, they are OPed means Nerf them. I have a hard time with matar cloak ships but I dont want them nerfed. If they call that a play style I want them to keep it. But they need to play that play style is my point.
Saelie	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:23:00 - [54] Oh, Minmatar ships certainly have their weaknesses. The Tournament demonstrated that. Minmatar hulls' main weakness in my eyes is their poor performance in groups or fleets. Like Drakes, they're only really good in groups of all-Minmatar ships, maybe with one or two others. In mixed fleets, they don't have the tanks of other ships and are very dependent on logistics. They also run around a lot, which makes them hard to support as less-experienced pilots tend to fly them out of range, and if their maneuverability is restricted their below-average tanks (and the below-average skills of many pilots flying them) can result in them getting blasted right out from under otherwise-competent support. Other criticisms are there, though. Their DPS is rarely as high as it says on the box because they're almost never in optimal, as opposed to the rest of the fleet that's generally doing maximum damage. They also go through ammunition extremely rapidly, which makes them prone to running out in extended battles. They can also rarely take advantage of their multiple damage types due to the extremely long reloading timer - Most pilots will not switch ammo types in a battle because in the time it takes them to switch, they could have done more damage than they gain by switching. They're slightly more vulnerable to ECM (As demonstrated by Star Fraction's two qualifiers) and are just as vulnerable to tracking disruption and sensor dampening as everyone else. My conclusion: Minmatar ships are excellent for fast-moving roaming gangs and for single-race fleets, but they lose some of that oomph once they're forced to work with everybody else. Now, for those who think the tournament was a showing of Minmatar dominance, the statistics suggest otherwise. Taken right from the official site: Ships Fielded (Total) Minmatar: 548 Caldari: 397 Amarr: 222 Gallente: 273 Ships Lost (Total) Minmatar: 331 Caldari: 245 Amarr: 121 Gallente: 163 Odds of Survival (Total) Minmatar: 39.6% Caldari: 38.3% Amarr: 45.5% Gallente: 40.3% Across all Tournament participants, the Minmatar had the second-lowest survival rates of the four major factions. The only standout here was the Amarr, who have an impressive 5% survival chance over everyone else. But wait, I hear - This represents all pilots, not just the really good ones. Fortunately we're also provided with what the winners flew: Winners Fielded Minmatar: 305 Caldari: 181 Amarr: 124 Gallente: 139 Winners Lost Minmatar: 91 Caldari: 33 Amarr: 26 Gallente: 30 Winners' Odds of Survival Minmatar: 70.1% Caldari: 81.7% Amarr: 79.0% Gallente: 78.4% Well, that's not what you expected, I bet - The odds of a winning team fielding a Minmatar ship were the highest, but the odds of said ship surviving the match were lowest by a significant percentage. Not what you'd expect from a race that supposedly has it all! This certainly underscores that Minmatar ships are just as vulnerable as everyone else (and possibly moreso), they're just easier to use in a well-controlled tournament environment.
Trader Jen	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:43:00 - [55] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? their lower base sensor strength...
Zheren Huli Above the Law ESSE Imperium	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:57:00 - [56] Edited by: Zheren Huli on 21/06/2010 02:58:00 Originally by: Saelie Edited by: Saelie on 21/06/2010 02:28:59 Nice statistics without questioning your statistics and being a minmatar pilot myself i stil have to ask... do you consider that about every team did bring minatar frigates / destroyer in to fill the "restpoints". i mean about every match we saw dramiels, daredevils and sabres just as "useful pointfiller", so i would be intrested in the stats without those ships being calculated.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.06.21 03:16:00 - [57] Of course if people field more minmatar ships, they will be more likely to be ships lost.
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.06.21 03:22:00 - [58] Fiddled around in EFT, figured I'd throw a couple numbers out there: Abaddon VS Maelstrom: 8 T2 biggest close-range guns, 2 damage mods, mael has 2 TEs as well. Close range ammo loaded: Abaddon ODs the maelstrom out to about 18km, then the mael comes out on top for damage. Long range ammo loaded: abaddon ODs the mael out to about 52km. (keeping in mind the abaddon has no TEs and the mael has 2) Both are equally screwed if they get TD'd Both are equally screwed if they get neuted The difference isn't that huge, and certainly doesn't favor the matari in any significant way. Pest is pretty bad, more of a big BC than a BS. Phoon needs more skills than just about any other non-cap in the game to use well. Cane is a good BC, but then so is the drake. Vaga is the best roaming HAC, but other races have better sniping HACs Sleip is good, but then so is the abso. Rifter kicks ass, but most people outgrow t1 frigs pretty quick. Scimitar is a good logi ship, but then so is the guardian. I can't really think of any matari shipline that really dominates. All their ships are very situational, and the different lineups are so vastly different that each one has its own massive weakness to be exploited.
Kishin Sendo	Posted - 2010.06.21 03:24:00 - [59] Yes there is a weakness, takes a lot longer to train minmator skills to fly them effectively
Doppleganger Minmatar Imperium Technologies Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.06.21 04:02:00 - [60] Actually in most of the ATs before this one minmatars ships were some of the least fielded ships. I think one of the biggest changes that made minny based ships worth fielding was the change to falloffs. I have been flying minmatar ships for over 7 yrs and before the falloff changes I didnt use acs as much as I do now. I can pretty much fly most of the ships in the game and it has always been that minmatar are the most skill intensive and time intensive ones to fly right with a few exceptions (cough old super speed vagas) with gal being next then amarr then caldari. Now that the AT is over its easy to see the best way to combat what PL had would be maybe some huginns and stilettos to slow them down but thats only a guess.



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