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What is the one true weakness of minmatar ships?

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Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:46:00 - [1] Watching AT8, I was thinking: Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones. Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps. Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types. Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue. What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)?
McRoll Minmatar Heatseekers	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:49:00 - [2] You have witnessed the excellence of Minmatar engineering which resulted in complete annihilation of their enemies. Other races laughed at our ships, see where it got them. They have no weaknesses. Minmatar. In rust they trust.
Demolishar United Aggression Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:51:00 - [3] Minmatar guns tracking is actually the best of all the guns. They really have no weakness.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:52:00 - [4] Nerf Minmatar! Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Tsukiko Ishida Taj'Kura	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:52:00 - [5] When flown too close to the sun, the duct tape begins to fall off.
Moonmonkey Amarr Orange Clover	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:57:00 - [6] Split weapon systems. Split slot lay out, making for a weaker tank.
Devil tiger	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:58:00 - [7] I'd say its sensor strenght and damn near worthless racial e-war type, which isn't a real weakness since all racial except Caldari suck equally bad (which is near OP so everybody uses it thus making it ok).
Obyrith	Posted - 2010.06.20 21:59:00 - [8] Edited by: Obyrith on 20/06/2010 21:59:06 Originally by: Demolishar Minmatar guns tracking is actually the best of all the guns. They really have no weakness. Actually blasters track better, but their range problems cancel out that slight advantage.
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:03:00 - [9] Traditionally Minmatar weaknesses have been low sensor strength making them easier to jam than other races along with generally weaker local tanks relying more on speed and hit and run tactics. How much of a weakness these things are in todays game environment is debatable.
Alex Tantra Minmatar Ministry of Destruction	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:03:00 - [10] Originally by: Obyrith Edited by: Obyrith on 20/06/2010 21:59:06 Originally by: Demolishar Minmatar guns tracking is actually the best of all the guns. They really have no weakness. Actually blasters track better, but their range problems cancel out that slight advantage.

Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:03:00 - [11] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Watching AT8, I was thinking: What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. You are missing the obvious. Every race has their pro's and con's, some of them have been described to you here (but I would hope you could point them out yourself). Does minmatar have an advantage in the tournament? I think the way the tournament is currently structured the answer is obviously. However the tournament is not tranquility pvp, and minmatar advantages that provide an edge in the tournament are usually fleshed out and countered well on tranquility. tldr: pvp != AT -- A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Moonmonkey Split weapon systems. Split slot lay out, making for a weaker tank. Split weapon systems? Only one ship springs to mind that uses that, the Typhoon. And with split weapon systems it does some amazing dps. Split slot layout, in a way yes. But it doesn't suffer so much for it. Minmatar ships overall still has some great tankers with eg. the shield boost bonuses on some of them, and the hurricane being one of the more versatile of the ships in their arsenal.
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:06:00 - [13] T2 minnie shield tankers have good omni resists, armour tanking Rooks do not nor is a non bonused myrm using AC's very fantastic and it's still doesn't have good omni resists. Most importantly; Huginn kept small stuff away from their scimi making it a lot easier. Leaving huge resists gaps isn't a good idea when facing someone who can select their damage type. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service
Shawshanke	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:06:00 - [14] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Watching AT8, I was thinking: Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones. Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps. Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types. Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue. What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? You missed that on average they have faster ships.
Terazuk Amarr THORN Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:06:00 - [15] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin ...What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? Other Minmatar ships tbh. Fortes Fortuna Adiuvat
Mr M Legion of Illuminated Social Rejects	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:08:00 - [16] The true weakness of minnie ships is that you need more skill points to use them good. The typhoon is a tier 1 battleship but needs more skill points than most tier 3 ships. Eve Tribune\|EVEgeek\|Firebrand Radio
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:09:00 - [17] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Moonmonkey Split weapon systems. Split slot lay out, making for a weaker tank. Split weapon systems? Only one ship springs to mind that uses that, the Typhoon. And with split weapon systems it does some amazing dps. Split slot layout, in a way yes. But it doesn't suffer so much for it. Minmatar ships overall still has some great tankers with eg. the shield boost bonuses on some of them, and the hurricane being one of the more versatile of the ships in their arsenal. Bellicose and Recons are very much split. Rupture is kind of split with the 2 utility slots. Tempest is in the same boat as the Ruppy. Minnie ships tend to need a few extra skillpoints to take full advantage of what the ships can do. The solid tanking issues have been somewhat taken care of with the introduction of ships like the BCs and Command ships and the Maelstrom.
Felix Esperium Lysergic Distortions Research and Development	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Devil tiger damn near worthless racial e-war type, which isn't a real weakness since all racial except Caldari suck equally bad (which is near OP so everybody uses it thus making it ok). Confirm. rapier, curse and arazu are totally worthless.
Marshiro	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:11:00 - [19] Mini is bad in blobs, and blobs iz everything. mutters something about apocs and gedons
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Mr M The true weakness of minnie ships is that you need more skill points to use them good. The typhoon is a tier 1 battleship but needs more skill points than most tier 3 ships. I think this is true compared to maybe Caldari ships. But to Gallente and Amarr? With the exception of maybe the Typhoon. Yes. So a skill-intensive tier-1 BS is it?

Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Mr M The true weakness of minnie ships is that you need more skill points to use them good. The typhoon is a tier 1 battleship but needs more skill points than most tier 3 ships. I think this is true compared to maybe Caldari ships. But to Gallente and Amarr? With the exception of maybe the Typhoon. Yes. So a skill-intensive tier-1 BS is it? yes, that is it. you figured it all out. minmatar are secretly the win button. IF you aren't a troll, do you read what you type before you post it or is it just one fluid motion of stupid from brain to forums? -- A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Mr M The true weakness of minnie ships is that you need more skill points to use them good. The typhoon is a tier 1 battleship but needs more skill points than most tier 3 ships. I think this is true compared to maybe Caldari ships. But to Gallente and Amarr? With the exception of maybe the Typhoon. Yes. So a skill-intensive tier-1 BS is it? You need to train drone skills to supplement your dps that you lack in comparison to other races. You need to train up missiles or some other high slot utility modules like a nos / neut to take advantage of those slots. You need to train up both shield and armor skills to take advantage of all the different ships. You need to train up a few extra gunnery skills to make up the lack of tracking and dps. You also need to train up your navigation skills to utilize the speed tanking of Minmatar ships.
Rhinanna Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:18:00 - [23] Yeah your missing that you've kinda combined ACs and arties there great optimal -- tech 2 425mm (mid) optimal 2.2km.... ACs and arties have the shortest optimals of all gun types. ACs have a lower max dps than blasters and that damage starts decaying due to the short optimal much quicker than blasters. Lasers can sit at their optimals from ACs and be beyond their optimal+falloffs, in many circumstances be about half-way to falloff again. Arties have the lowest dps of the 3 long ranged weapon types. Unlike lasers, AC users have to get optimal and have to spend 10 seconds to change ammo type which normally isn't worth it mid fight so while you can choose ammo you kinda have to do it before the fight starts. As mentioned the spread slot types make for a weaker tank and the spread weapon systems make for lesser overall dps, also the base ship shield and armour values are more evenly balanced meaning it harder to ramp one of them up for more EHP like the other races can. I agree blasters could use some PvP love but mainly for the boats they are fitted on. The simple fact you have to get up close and Gal armour tanking means slow boats stuck out of their range the entire battle. Best solution I can think of however is changing the ships not the weapons, with a few modifications to the galentte blaster boats to be shield tanked they could be very nasty. As for caldari. The short ranged missiles flight time is negligable at their max range so doesn't really become a great issue and can be compensated for by the pilot by switching to the secondary target a bit early, with long range missiles they have some the of the best DPS there considering that if they can hit it, they are doing max damage. Also the fact the minmatars don't have a really good fleet rrbs is a fairly major hindrance to minmatar pilots as well. And as pointed out, weak sensors. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag)
Annie Anomie Gallente Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:20:00 - [24] Disadvantages? Turrets can be neutralised with ewar. Lasers have much better optimal. A lot of the advantages of minmatar boats rely on player input and aren't exactly inherent to the hull. Being fit for kiting does you no good at all if the fight starts in scram range.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:29:00 - [25] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? Id say the lack of a tank is Minmatars biggest weakness. The rules, and the shape of the tournament arena, gives the more mobile Minmatar/Angel ships an advantage. In an other arena or with rules that for example allowed more battleships, Minmatar would not be so dominant.
Moonmonkey Amarr Orange Clover	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:30:00 - [26] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Moonmonkey Split weapon systems. Split slot lay out, making for a weaker tank. Split weapon systems? Only one ship springs to mind that uses that, the Typhoon. And with split weapon systems it does some amazing dps. Split slot layout, in a way yes. But it doesn't suffer so much for it. Minmatar ships overall still has some great tankers with eg. the shield boost bonuses on some of them, and the hurricane being one of the more versatile of the ships in their arsenal. Typhoon and Tempest. Cyclone and Hurricane. Claymore. Stabber, scythe, Rupture, Bellicose and Huginn. naglfar If you look though the minmatar ship the bulk of them are split leaning more to turret. Not that many minmatar ships that are all one weapon type. Maelstrom, Sleipnir and Vargur come to mind.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Annie Anomie Disadvantages? Turrets can be neutralised with ewar. Lasers have much better optimal. A lot of the advantages of minmatar boats rely on player input and aren't exactly inherent to the hull. Being fit for kiting does you no good at all if the fight starts in scram range. Minmatar turrets are capless. Optimal is compensated with great falloff + versatile damage types.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Minmatar turrets are capless. They can still be neutralised, most obviously through the used of tracking disruptors. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:42:00 - [29] Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 20/06/2010 22:45:22 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Minmatar turrets are capless. They can still be neutralised, most obviously through the used of tracking disruptors. And hybrids and lasers can't? It's not a racial weakness. edit: Seems to me that the general consensus is Minmatar being somewhat more skill-intensive and maybe tank a bit less (but with shield tankers instead compensate for that through dps). Seems like the balancing could use a slight bit of tweaking.
Annie Anomie Gallente Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:44:00 - [30] It's not really the same. There's a fair difference between optimal and falloff. Amarr scorchboats are chuffing terrifying out to longer ranges than their Minmatar equivalents. Battleship scorch is brutal in midrange fights. Zealots are evil. etc. etc. If you're going for range you have to load barrage which limits your damage type too. Now, ACs are almost as good at similar ranges (a hell of a lot better than blasters at any rate) which kinda sums up minmatar with being versatile but it's not true to say they are best at everything.

Ziven0x Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers	Posted - 2010.06.20 22:56:00 - [31] Minmatar pretty much operate solely in fall off range which means their damage changes as they move closer / farther. Overall they require more skills to use efficiently(shield and armor tank). For the most part their battleships are somewhat lacking (there are still good fits, but not as general purpose as say...amarr). Most ships have relatively lower tank than the same class in another race (cane vs drake). etc etc
RuleoftheBone Minmatar The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:02:00 - [32] Since when does tourney resemble reality of combat ops on TQ? Shortcomings (play to strengths) would be training investment required, mediocre ewar (lolpainters and nerfed webs), and split weapons...and probably the ugliest T3 ship in game
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:13:00 - [33] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Since when does tourney resemble reality of combat ops on TQ? This. I really hope people don't start thinking Minmatar ships are superior in real world PvP based off their prevalent usage and apparent superiority in the tournament.
Cozmik R5 Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:22:00 - [34] Originally by: Moonmonkey Split weapon systems. Split slot lay out, making for a weaker tank. Our ships are ammo-tanked ____________________ Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.
Henry Valkyn	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:27:00 - [35] I want to go solo PvPing -> Minmatar I want to go small-gang roaming -> Minmatar I want to go suicide ganking -> Minmatar I want to OUTTRACK AN INTERCEPTOR GOING 4,8 KM/s ORBITING ME effectively at 21km -> Minmatar I want to engage a Zealot (mentioned in this thread) in my Vagabond/Cynabal in a 1vs1 -> Minmatar + ECM drones I want to be able to dps a target with highdamage ammo with differing resistance from either 2km to 50km -> Minmatar I want a ship with a large shield buffer that has a racial bonus to the lowest shield resist along with having lowslots empty for tracking enhancers and damage mods -> Minmatar If someone tracking disrupts me -> I laugh and nano away In short: There are too many 'outs' for a Minmatar pilot. You never really commit as you do with another race as you with most ships NEED to get within scrambling/web range to exploit Caldari/Amarr/Gallente benefits, something that is not the case with Minmatar. And yes, there are some areas where Minmatar may not be the best... but looking at overall performance in small/medium-gang pvp (where skills count, not just heavy lag and tons of cap ships) the Minmatar ships have it better off at the moment. They can to a much higher degree control the engagements and if they encounter fierce resistance, they nano or warp off. There are too many benefits in regards to the current Tranq pvp situation that apply to these ships compared to disadvantages.
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Henry Valkyn I want to go solo PvPing -> Minmatar I want to go small-gang roaming -> Minmatar I want to go suicide ganking -> Minmatar I want to OUTTRACK AN INTERCEPTOR GOING 4,8 KM/s ORBITING ME effectively at 21km -> Minmatar I want to engage a Zealot (mentioned in this thread) in my Vagabond/Cynabal in a 1vs1 -> Minmatar + ECM drones I want to be able to dps a target with highdamage ammo with differing resistance from either 2km to 50km -> Minmatar I want a ship with a large shield buffer that has a racial bonus to the lowest shield resist along with having lowslots empty for tracking enhancers and damage mods -> Minmatar If someone tracking disrupts me -> I laugh and nano away you don't actually play this game do you? it's ok. you can admit it, we won't make fun of you. if you do, you must be TERRIBLE at it -- A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.
Zverofaust Gallente Locus Industries	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:44:00 - [37] The way I look at it is that Minmatar have far too effective combination of all the most important PVP attributes you look for in a ship. The combination of mobility, maneuverability, tank and damage output far exceeds any other race. From an individual aspect point of view, Caldari ships may have better tanks, Gallente may do more DPS and Amarr may be able to shoot further but all of those are easily countered by Minmatar's natural strengths. Amarr and Gallente suffer horribly from cap warfare which Minmatar excel at; and Caldari are exceptionally easy to simply avoid. A 1600mm plated Hurricane with no nanomods still easily outruns all but the most ridiculous nano battlecruiser fits of all other races (and being such ridiculous nano fits their speed doesn't matter because they die horribly). Even the "high dps" only works for frigates and battleships; everything else is basically pointless. The only way to get any sort of DPS advantage in a Myrm or Brutix or Thorax or Vexor is to completely abandon any tank whatsoever, so they get pretty stomped. Anyway, BUFF GALLENTE ___________________________________________ The Hero of Kamela The Terror of Tararan The Executioner of Ezzara
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Zverofaust The way I look at it is that Minmatar have far too effective combination of all the most important PVP attributes you look for in a ship. The combination of mobility, maneuverability, tank and damage output far exceeds any other race. From an individual aspect point of view, Caldari ships may have better tanks, Gallente may do more DPS and Amarr may be able to shoot further but all of those are easily countered by Minmatar's natural strengths. Amarr and Gallente suffer horribly from cap warfare which Minmatar excel at; and Caldari are exceptionally easy to simply avoid. A 1600mm plated Hurricane with no nanomods still easily outruns all but the most ridiculous nano battlecruiser fits of all other races (and being such ridiculous nano fits their speed doesn't matter because they die horribly). Even the "high dps" only works for frigates and battleships; everything else is basically pointless. The only way to get any sort of DPS advantage in a Myrm or Brutix or Thorax or Vexor is to completely abandon any tank whatsoever, so they get pretty stomped. Anyway, BUFF GALLENTE you don't actually play this game do you? it's ok. you can admit it, we won't make fun of you. if you do, you must be TERRIBLE at it (i would like to see either a cap reduction or tracking boost for blasters. so i'll give you that) -- A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:48:00 - [39] Ok, now you can stop looking like someone who never played the game and explain why Minmatar are the least played race. Also, since I also play with Caldari, I have almost to punch myself to play something where I have to be up to the enemy's butt all the time or I get 1/4 of the damage out. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Aralieus Amarr The Inf1dels En Garde	Posted - 2010.06.20 23:48:00 - [40] Tracking Disruptor Fortune favors the bold!!! Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken-Tyler Durden

Henry Valkyn	Posted - 2010.06.21 00:54:00 - [41] Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia edit: seriously to both of the above posters, i'll try to be nice and explain. have either of you actually flown minmatar ships? (try not to lie) I fly all 4 race's ships and have for years. I find it difficult anyone could actually make those statements and also have any idea what they are talking about unless they are intentionally slanting their argument or trolling. You didn't really explain anything at all. You just mentioned you fly 4 races and have for years after which you went onto a concluding statement, stating that our statements stated nothing of value (in your eyes). <3 'Statement'
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.21 00:59:00 - [42] Quote: Even the "high dps" only works for frigates and battleships; everything else is basically pointless. The only way to get any sort of DPS advantage in a Myrm or Brutix or Thorax or Vexor is to completely abandon any tank whatsoever, so they get pretty stomped. Right. Give me the vexors drone bonus instead of the projectile bonus on a typhoon. make it fair and cut it down to 5% to reflect the bonus the typhoon has on projectiles. That would be the wtfpwn bbq ship of the century. No, the damage is there you just aren't utilizing it. This is clearly a signature.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:00:00 - [43] Edited by: VicturusTeSaluto on 21/06/2010 01:00:58 Originally by: RuleoftheBone Since when does tourney resemble reality of combat ops on TQ? Shortcomings (play to strengths) would be training investment required, mediocre ewar (lolpainters and nerfed webs), and split weapons...and probably the ugliest T3 ship in game the predictable, pre-planned, pre-arranged, consensual fighting of the tournament does not have anything to do with the actual game... The truth is that minmatar has never recovered from the speed changes. What is the point of trying to kite your opponent when MWD's now accelerate at afterburner speed?
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:03:00 - [44] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Watching AT8, I was thinking: Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones. Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps. Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types. Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue. What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? Their weakness is supposed to be paper thin tanks, with their tanking ability smaller sig and faster speed compared to other races, from frigs vs frigs, to cruiser vs cruiser, to BS vs BS. This scaling broke down because speed got a nerf, and then minmatar were paper thin floating killmails, so they got HP buffed, thus unbalancing them considering how they are so offensively good. Their Optimal and falloff; Optimal is supposed to be the point whre you do the most hits, Optimal + tracking gets you higher hits if the enemy is closer, optimal + falloff gets you more hits as the target gets farther away. They're supposed to have crappy optimal, but great falloff, this is supposed to lead to a lower overall chance of hitting compared to other races, but a slower degradation in hitting ability over 1000's of meters beyond falloff. This also has proven untrue due to the fact that tracking trumps all and they gave outrageous tracking to drones and ACs and Arties, meaning the supposed weaknesses these mechanisms are supposed to have dont actually work due to a flaw in balancing the other stats. There's 1, repeat 1, frigate in the T1 lineup designed to be a suicide tackler. the rest are for COMBAT. so don't tell me to tackle when I'm in a combat T1 frig. OR tell CCP to fix their mess.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:18:00 - [45] Originally by: 1Ekrid1 Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Watching AT8, I was thinking: Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones. Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps. Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types. Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue. What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? Their weakness is supposed to be paper thin tanks, with their tanking ability smaller sig and faster speed compared to other races, from frigs vs frigs, to cruiser vs cruiser, to BS vs BS. This scaling broke down because speed got a nerf, and then minmatar were paper thin floating killmails, so they got HP buffed, thus unbalancing them considering how they are so offensively good. Their Optimal and falloff; Optimal is supposed to be the point whre you do the most hits, Optimal + tracking gets you higher hits if the enemy is closer, optimal + falloff gets you more hits as the target gets farther away. They're supposed to have crappy optimal, but great falloff, this is supposed to lead to a lower overall chance of hitting compared to other races, but a slower degradation in hitting ability over 1000's of meters beyond falloff. This also has proven untrue due to the fact that tracking trumps all and they gave outrageous tracking to drones and ACs and Arties, meaning the supposed weaknesses these mechanisms are supposed to have dont actually work due to a flaw in balancing the other stats. Very, very good post.
Ocih Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:37:00 - [46] Originally by: 1Ekrid1 Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Watching AT8, I was thinking: Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones. Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps. Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types. Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue. What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? Their weakness is supposed to be paper thin tanks, with their tanking ability smaller sig and faster speed compared to other races, from frigs vs frigs, to cruiser vs cruiser, to BS vs BS. This scaling broke down because speed got a nerf, and then minmatar were paper thin floating killmails, so they got HP buffed, thus unbalancing them considering how they are so offensively good. Their Optimal and falloff; Optimal is supposed to be the point whre you do the most hits, Optimal + tracking gets you higher hits if the enemy is closer, optimal + falloff gets you more hits as the target gets farther away. They're supposed to have crappy optimal, but great falloff, this is supposed to lead to a lower overall chance of hitting compared to other races, but a slower degradation in hitting ability over 1000's of meters beyond falloff. This also has proven untrue due to the fact that tracking trumps all and they gave outrageous tracking to drones and ACs and Arties, meaning the supposed weaknesses these mechanisms are supposed to have dont actually work due to a flaw in balancing the other stats. This and they pick and choose thier battles at liesure. Vaga and a Zealot uncloak at a gate. Zealot is obligated to fight if the Vaga decides he wants to. Vaga can just leave, Zealot can't make him engage. Every gate camp has 2 hurricanes. Down side? If there are no easy kills Matar get to play cloaky smacktalker for 6 hrs.
Plumpy McPudding Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:42:00 - [47] Minmatar? More like Winmatar. __________________________ Fear me for I have an insatiable appetite! Proprietor and inventor of Chocolate Chip Chocolate Donut flavored Ice Cream.
Aerilis Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:51:00 - [48] T2 Salvagers
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.21 01:52:00 - [49] Is it true that after years of being sub par the Minmatar finally have the more powerful ships ?
Ocih Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:02:00 - [50] Originally by: Balsak Is it true that after years of being sub par the Minmatar finally have the more powerful ships ? Yep, gratz. they are FotM. That should last 4 or 5 months in nerf bat EvE. So before they kill Matar again, consider a prudent nerf to all EvE. No more perma cloak AFK. Every 20 minutes or so you need to turn off your cloak and recycle it. Do it in warp, thats fine. But if you want to AFK camp a system? Tough. If you want to cloak camp a system do it staring at the screen.

Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:14:00 - [51] Originally by: Ocih So before they kill Matar again, consider a prudent nerf to all EvE. No more perma cloak AFK. Every 20 minutes or so you need to turn off your cloak and recycle it. Do it in warp, thats fine. But if you want to AFK camp a system? Tough. If you want to cloak camp a system do it staring at the screen. -Add on: Better idea. low m3 fuels for cloaks. Both are easily beaten by the simplest macro scripts ever invented. Hell a programmable keyboard could be setup to do it. Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:16:00 - [52] Originally by: Ocih Edited by: Ocih on 21/06/2010 02:09:01 Originally by: Balsak Is it true that after years of being sub par the Minmatar finally have the more powerful ships ? Yep, gratz. they are FotM. That should last 4 or 5 months in nerf bat EvE. So before they kill Matar again, consider a prudent nerf to all EvE. No more perma cloak AFK. Every 20 minutes or so you need to turn off your cloak and recycle it. Do it in warp, thats fine. But if you want to AFK camp a system? Tough. If you want to cloak camp a system do it staring at the screen. -Add on: Better idea. low m3 fuels for cloaks. LoL nice, turn this thread from a Minmatar are OP thread to a nerf cloaks thread. Wouldn't bother me if they nerf Minmatar anyways. I always flew Minnie and always will bar a couple of other races ships for certain tasks. Besides, knowing how slow CCP are at fixing obvious overpowered things I really doubt Minmatar will be up on the nerf block any time soon. Going by CCPs latest trends in weapon and racial imbalance they tend to buff rather than nerf just like they did with Amarr and the projectile buff. Angel ships are a much bigger problem than Minnies.
Ocih Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:16:00 - [53] Edited by: Ocih on 21/06/2010 02:19:32 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Ocih So before they kill Matar again, consider a prudent nerf to all EvE. No more perma cloak AFK. Every 20 minutes or so you need to turn off your cloak and recycle it. Do it in warp, thats fine. But if you want to AFK camp a system? Tough. If you want to cloak camp a system do it staring at the screen. -Add on: Better idea. low m3 fuels for cloaks. Both are easily beaten by the simplest macro scripts ever invented. Hell a programmable keyboard could be setup to do it. Yep. 100% true. CCP 0/ Macro warriors 2045 Lets do what we always do. Nothing. - Sorry for the hijack. Its my forward thinking. Waaah, waah, they are OPed means Nerf them. I have a hard time with matar cloak ships but I dont want them nerfed. If they call that a play style I want them to keep it. But they need to play that play style is my point.
Saelie	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:23:00 - [54] Oh, Minmatar ships certainly have their weaknesses. The Tournament demonstrated that. Minmatar hulls' main weakness in my eyes is their poor performance in groups or fleets. Like Drakes, they're only really good in groups of all-Minmatar ships, maybe with one or two others. In mixed fleets, they don't have the tanks of other ships and are very dependent on logistics. They also run around a lot, which makes them hard to support as less-experienced pilots tend to fly them out of range, and if their maneuverability is restricted their below-average tanks (and the below-average skills of many pilots flying them) can result in them getting blasted right out from under otherwise-competent support. Other criticisms are there, though. Their DPS is rarely as high as it says on the box because they're almost never in optimal, as opposed to the rest of the fleet that's generally doing maximum damage. They also go through ammunition extremely rapidly, which makes them prone to running out in extended battles. They can also rarely take advantage of their multiple damage types due to the extremely long reloading timer - Most pilots will not switch ammo types in a battle because in the time it takes them to switch, they could have done more damage than they gain by switching. They're slightly more vulnerable to ECM (As demonstrated by Star Fraction's two qualifiers) and are just as vulnerable to tracking disruption and sensor dampening as everyone else. My conclusion: Minmatar ships are excellent for fast-moving roaming gangs and for single-race fleets, but they lose some of that oomph once they're forced to work with everybody else. Now, for those who think the tournament was a showing of Minmatar dominance, the statistics suggest otherwise. Taken right from the official site: Ships Fielded (Total) Minmatar: 548 Caldari: 397 Amarr: 222 Gallente: 273 Ships Lost (Total) Minmatar: 331 Caldari: 245 Amarr: 121 Gallente: 163 Odds of Survival (Total) Minmatar: 39.6% Caldari: 38.3% Amarr: 45.5% Gallente: 40.3% Across all Tournament participants, the Minmatar had the second-lowest survival rates of the four major factions. The only standout here was the Amarr, who have an impressive 5% survival chance over everyone else. But wait, I hear - This represents all pilots, not just the really good ones. Fortunately we're also provided with what the winners flew: Winners Fielded Minmatar: 305 Caldari: 181 Amarr: 124 Gallente: 139 Winners Lost Minmatar: 91 Caldari: 33 Amarr: 26 Gallente: 30 Winners' Odds of Survival Minmatar: 70.1% Caldari: 81.7% Amarr: 79.0% Gallente: 78.4% Well, that's not what you expected, I bet - The odds of a winning team fielding a Minmatar ship were the highest, but the odds of said ship surviving the match were lowest by a significant percentage. Not what you'd expect from a race that supposedly has it all! This certainly underscores that Minmatar ships are just as vulnerable as everyone else (and possibly moreso), they're just easier to use in a well-controlled tournament environment.
Trader Jen	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:43:00 - [55] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? their lower base sensor strength...
Zheren Huli Above the Law ESSE Imperium	Posted - 2010.06.21 02:57:00 - [56] Edited by: Zheren Huli on 21/06/2010 02:58:00 Originally by: Saelie Edited by: Saelie on 21/06/2010 02:28:59 Nice statistics without questioning your statistics and being a minmatar pilot myself i stil have to ask... do you consider that about every team did bring minatar frigates / destroyer in to fill the "restpoints". i mean about every match we saw dramiels, daredevils and sabres just as "useful pointfiller", so i would be intrested in the stats without those ships being calculated.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.06.21 03:16:00 - [57] Of course if people field more minmatar ships, they will be more likely to be ships lost.
Cambarus The Compass Reloaded	Posted - 2010.06.21 03:22:00 - [58] Fiddled around in EFT, figured I'd throw a couple numbers out there: Abaddon VS Maelstrom: 8 T2 biggest close-range guns, 2 damage mods, mael has 2 TEs as well. Close range ammo loaded: Abaddon ODs the maelstrom out to about 18km, then the mael comes out on top for damage. Long range ammo loaded: abaddon ODs the mael out to about 52km. (keeping in mind the abaddon has no TEs and the mael has 2) Both are equally screwed if they get TD'd Both are equally screwed if they get neuted The difference isn't that huge, and certainly doesn't favor the matari in any significant way. Pest is pretty bad, more of a big BC than a BS. Phoon needs more skills than just about any other non-cap in the game to use well. Cane is a good BC, but then so is the drake. Vaga is the best roaming HAC, but other races have better sniping HACs Sleip is good, but then so is the abso. Rifter kicks ass, but most people outgrow t1 frigs pretty quick. Scimitar is a good logi ship, but then so is the guardian. I can't really think of any matari shipline that really dominates. All their ships are very situational, and the different lineups are so vastly different that each one has its own massive weakness to be exploited.
Kishin Sendo	Posted - 2010.06.21 03:24:00 - [59] Yes there is a weakness, takes a lot longer to train minmator skills to fly them effectively
Doppleganger Minmatar Imperium Technologies Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.06.21 04:02:00 - [60] Actually in most of the ATs before this one minmatars ships were some of the least fielded ships. I think one of the biggest changes that made minny based ships worth fielding was the change to falloffs. I have been flying minmatar ships for over 7 yrs and before the falloff changes I didnt use acs as much as I do now. I can pretty much fly most of the ships in the game and it has always been that minmatar are the most skill intensive and time intensive ones to fly right with a few exceptions (cough old super speed vagas) with gal being next then amarr then caldari. Now that the AT is over its easy to see the best way to combat what PL had would be maybe some huginns and stilettos to slow them down but thats only a guess.

Sphit Ker	Posted - 2010.06.21 04:03:00 - [61] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Ocih So before they kill Matar again, consider a prudent nerf to all EvE. No more perma cloak AFK. Every 20 minutes or so you need to turn off your cloak and recycle it. Do it in warp, thats fine. But if you want to AFK camp a system? Tough. If you want to cloak camp a system do it staring at the screen. -Add on: Better idea. low m3 fuels for cloaks. Both are easily beaten by the simplest macro scripts ever invented. Hell a programmable keyboard could be setup to do it. The following statement is not my signature. The preceding statement is my signature.
Zheren Huli Above the Law ESSE Imperium	Posted - 2010.06.21 04:05:00 - [62] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Of course if people field more minmatar ships, they will be more likely to be ships lost. that too, however... my eye wasnt so much on the total amount fielded but rather on the ships that are the ones first to die in a stalemate situation, targeted cause of a weak tank or just because they are first in range. hense minmatar with their "fill up" ships could screw quiet a lot with the statistics.
Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.06.21 04:08:00 - [63] This.
Saelie	Posted - 2010.06.21 04:16:00 - [64] The stats for larger ships had to be compiled from here, so let's see what we came up with. In 'large ships' I included all battleships, commandships, battlecruisers, and strategic cruisers (Marauders and HACs were ignored due to there only being 9 and 18 fielded, respectively). Sadly, the 'Winners Only' data is not easily available for this (I'd have to go through every single match manually), simply the tournament-wide fielded/survival ratios: Disclaimer - Faction ships are not included. Notes I gleaned from watching the tournament are included below each statistic. Battleships Fielded/Lost/Percent Survival: Amarr: 36 / 20 / 44.4% Caldari: 14 / 9 / 35.7% Gallente: 16 / 9 / 43.75% Minmatar: 13 / 5 / 61.5% Notes: This seems to favor the Minmatar, but the statistics are skewed by one match (Second qualifier, Leguinea Romana Vs. death from above) in which three Maelstroms were fielded, but almost nothing on either side was destroyed. Discarding the results of this non-battle, in which only 21 points were destroyed by both sides combined, the Minmatar battleship drops to 10 / 5 / 50%, still the highest but not as impressively so due to the small sample sizes of non-Amarr battleships. The Abaddon was especially common, with 27 of them seeing battle, as many as Caldari and Minmatar combined. Commandships Fielded/Lost/Percent Survival: Amarr: 21 / 10 / 52.4% Caldari: 37 / 22 / 40.5% Gallente: 9 / 6 / 33.3% Minmatar: 100 / 56 / 44.0% Notes: Sleipnirs were one of the most popular ships of the tournament, with a monumental 82 of them taking the field - The second most popular ship behind the Dramiel. Amarr commandships have the survival edge here, while the tiny number of Gallente commandships that appeared at all (All the same ship, the Eos) makes their statistics almost meaningless. The Caldari were slightly set back by a few triple-Nighthawk teams that died horribly. Battlecruisers Fielded/Lost/Percent Survival: Amarr: 10 / 7 / 30.0% Caldari: 76 / 43 / 43.4% Gallente: 35 / 16 / 54.3% Minmatar: 95 / 63 / 33.7% Notes: No surprise here with the Minmatar theme, as well as the high death rate of the few Amarr battlecruisers, all Harbingers - Notorious glass cannons. That said, the sample size is low enough that I wouldn't count on it. The Minmatar BCs fared surprisingly badly, especially the Cyclone with its abysmal 17 / 14 / 17.7% survival rate. This is likely heavily influenced to the sheer numbers of them being fielded, but winning teams tended to go for the Sleipnir over the Hurricane in my observations - It runs a better shield tank. Strategic Cruisers Fielded/Lost/Percent Survival: Amarr: 5 / 0 / 100% Caldari: 59 / 34 / 42.4% Gallente: 38 / 21 / 44.7% Minmatar: 25 / 10 / 60.0% Notes: The Tengu, hailed for its versatility, had the highest attrition rate among every one of the strategic cruisers, mainly due to the large number of teams that fielded triple-Tengu setups and lost. No Legions died, but only five were fielded, three by tournament champions Pandemic Legion as a specific counter to another setup, making that statistic meaningless. The high survival of the Loki here is rather impressive. Total Large Ships Fielded/Lost/Percent Survival Amarr: 72 / 37 / 48.6% Caldari: 186 / 108 / 41.9% Gallente: 98 / 52 / 46.9% Minmatar: 233 / 134 / 42.5% Caldari had the highest loss rate among large ships - No surprise considering the tendency of newer teams to field the generally-useless Drake combined with the Nighthawk's poor showing. The Minmatar also suffered due to the numbers of them, particularly the setups that ran three Sleipnirs or three Hurricanes (Or both) with a Claymore usually thrown in as well, typically getting destroyed by stealth bombers. Gallente and Amarr large ships had similarly high survival rates due to their generally being brought in for a specific reason.
Saelie	Posted - 2010.06.21 04:25:00 - [65] Originally by: Zheren Huli Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Of course if people field more minmatar ships, they will be more likely to be ships lost. that too, however... my eye wasnt so much on the total amount fielded but rather on the ships that are the ones first to die in a stalemate situation, targeted cause of a weak tank or just because they are first in range. hense minmatar with their "fill up" ships could screw quiet a lot with the statistics. While true, I noted that the statistics would likely hold out even if even numbers had been brought. This is suggested to me by the winners' numbers - 305 Minmatar ships were fielded, with 95 lost, while 444 non-Minmatar ships were fielded with only 89 of them lost - Despite more than 25% more non-Minmatar ships being fielded by victorious teams, they still lost fewer of them.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.06.21 04:29:00 - [66] Dunno why I'm continuing this but... Originally by: Cambarus Fiddled around in EFT, figured I'd throw a couple numbers out there: Abaddon VS Maelstrom: 8 T2 biggest close-range guns, 2 damage mods, mael has 2 TEs as well. Close range ammo loaded: Abaddon ODs the maelstrom out to about 18km, then the mael comes out on top for damage. Long range ammo loaded: abaddon ODs the mael out to about 52km. (keeping in mind the abaddon has no TEs and the mael has 2) You are forgetting: 1. Damage types. 2. Cap usage (Matari guns use no cap), an abaddon without cap mods is dead. 3. Tank. Whilst a Mael can happily use lows for damage mods, an abaddon cannot so easily. Quote: Both are equally screwed if they get TD'd Both are equally screwed if they get neuted True, but I'd rather pick the capless guns versus neuts. How about you? [The discussion is of course very situational, so it's borderline impossible to really have a serious comparison] Quote: The difference isn't that huge, and certainly doesn't favor the matari in any significant way. I can come up with many situations where I would rather be in the Maelstrom. Not that the 'baddon is bad. The Mael is just a very impressive BS under many circumstances. Quote: Pest is pretty bad, more of a big BC than a BS. What? Very impressive alpha and dps, great falloff and good damage. Sort of weak tank, but still a very good ship. One of the cheapest sniper BS out there with very impressive alpha. Quote: Phoon needs more skills than just about any other non-cap in the game to use well. But with those skills it has the highest potential DPS of all tier 1 ships (and probably tier 2 and 3 as well in glass-cannon mode). Quote: Cane is a good BC, but then so is the drake. I am not going to argue against the drake. It's very ... boring ;) Quote: Vaga is the best roaming HAC, but other races have better sniping HACs Muninn has very nice alpha, which is important for sniping, no? Check out snipercanes btw. - very impressive and a lot cheaper. Quote: Sleip is good, but then so is the abso. Abso again the problem with damage/mobility. Sleip does high damage, good tank, whilst being very maneuverable. I disagree here. Quote: Rifter kicks ass, but most people outgrow t1 frigs pretty quick. Scimitar is a good logi ship, but then so is the guardian. I argue that the scimitar is the best shield logi-ship in the game. Look at ie. Darkside. (very competent medium gang pvp-alliance using scimmies exclusively for good reason). Quote: I can't really think of any matari shipline that really dominates. All their ships are very situational, and the different lineups are so vastly different that each one has its own massive weakness to be exploited. In a way I agree with you that there will always be situations where you can find weaknesses in any ship. And that pilot skills and player skills are relevant. I am not saying that there is an immense balance issue at hand, it's just that I find it difficult to find an as obvious flaw with Minmatar ships as with Gallente for example.
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.21 04:48:00 - [67] You asked what the weaknesses of Minmatar were and you have been answered. You can go train to fly Minmatar and find out for yourself. Just because the Gallente may have some problems that doesn't make Minmatar more powerful than everyone else. There is no doubt that the falloff boost really helped Minnie ships out and everyone loves flying fast ships over the slow ass bricks of the other races. Damage types are really a non issue like was mentioned in the tournament. Everyone pretty much omni tanks anyways, combine that with drone and missile boats being able to mix up their damage types. It's not like Gallente get a bonus to their thermal damage drones only.
bestsnail	Posted - 2010.06.21 04:51:00 - [68] Maybe ccp should balance all the races based on how they preform in the AT kinda like how blizzard rebalanced all classes in wow based on how they do in the arena.
omgevenmoarfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.06.21 04:55:00 - [69] Originally by: Balsak Damage types are really a non issue like was mentioned in the tournament. Everyone pretty much omni tanks anyways, combine that with drone and missile boats being able to mix up their damage types. It's not like Gallente get a bonus to their thermal damage drones only. Ever tried fighting a T2 ship while using the wrong damage types? Or killing a Drake with explosive? Switchable damage types DO matter.
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.21 04:59:00 - [70] Originally by: omgevenmoarfreemoniez Originally by: Balsak Damage types are really a non issue like was mentioned in the tournament. Everyone pretty much omni tanks anyways, combine that with drone and missile boats being able to mix up their damage types. It's not like Gallente get a bonus to their thermal damage drones only. Ever tried fighting a T2 ship while using the wrong damage types? Or killing a Drake with explosive? Switchable damage types DO matter. I never said was never useful, but it isn't a Minmatar exclusive ability.

Saelie	Posted - 2010.06.21 05:01:00 - [71] Selected replies. Quote: You are forgetting: 1. Damage types. 2. Cap usage (Matari guns use no cap), an abaddon without cap mods is dead. 3. Tank. Whilst a Mael can happily use lows for damage mods, an abaddon cannot so easily. I made a comment about damage types. So did one of the Alliance Tournament commentators. Most of the time damage type doesn't matter - Most PvP ships don't have any one resist that's very high or very low, and you're not going to be changing it mid-battle anyway because it's ten seconds of not doing anything. In regards to cap usage, this is true - The Abaddon is notoriously finicky on the cap, but then again, so is an active-tanked Maelstrom. You're right and wrong on the issue of the tank - The Maelstrom, with its active tank bonus and shield booster, is a better 1v1 or very-small-gang ship compared to the Abaddon, but against four or five people, the Abaddon begins to outshine it - Active-tanking Maelstroms melt like butter when primaried by eight battleships (and good luck passive-tanking it) but the legendary armor buffer of the Abaddon takes a long time to go down even then. Quote: True, but I'd rather pick the capless guns versus neuts. How about you? [The discussion is of course very situational, so it's borderline impossible to really have a serious comparison] Very situational, and the capless guns would be a big advantage over the cap-hungry Abaddon in a neuting situation. But there's a flip side to that - Maelstroms almost always active-tank, and that tank is going to shut off in the event of heavy neuting, while the typical armor-buffer Abaddon can continue to sit there and take it. In a fleet situation, it's generally better to have one Abaddon tying down a Curse for the entire fight than a Maelstrom tying it down for the minute or two it will take the enemy to kill it without its tank and free the Curse up. Quote: I can come up with many situations where I would rather be in the Maelstrom. Not that the 'baddon is bad. The Mael is just a very impressive BS under many circumstances. The Maelstrom is better the smaller the fleet is, the Abaddon is better the larger it is, generally speaking. My opinion, of course. Quote: What? Very impressive alpha and dps, great falloff and good damage. Sort of weak tank, but still a very good ship. One of the cheapest sniper BS out there with very impressive alpha. The 'Pest is good, but so is the Apoc. Sniper ships run almost no tank anyway, and the Apoc has an easier time getting extreme range because of its optimal bonus. The Tempest is, however, vastly superior for alpha damage - A group of them is quite frightening indeed! Both of them are better snipers than the Rokh, I think, and a mix of both (Tempests for huge alphas, Apocs for sustained fire to keep logistics busy) is devastating. Quote: But with those skills it has the highest potential DPS of all tier 1 ships (and probably tier 2 and 3 as well in glass-cannon mode). Not running the numbers to see if that's true or not (Geddons, torp Ravens, and Megas can deal crippling DPS too) but it wouldn't surprise me. It'd be close. Quote: I argue that the scimitar is the best shield logi-ship in the game. Look at ie. Darkside. (very competent medium gang pvp-alliance using scimmies exclusively for good reason). For small fast-moving gangs, yes. In fleet battles, Basilisks and Guardians have the edge since they can support each other with cap as well as shields/armor. Won't see this in the Tournament with their one-logi limit, which is there because of how popular this used to be. With versatile lineups like the Minmatar have, it's hard to find one big glaring racial weakness. Instead, you get to know the weaknesses of each individual ship.
AkJon Ferguson	Posted - 2010.06.21 05:09:00 - [72] Not all ships of the same class should be equally good. Each race should have a few really popular ships. I think that's pretty much how it is. No changes required.
Saelie	Posted - 2010.06.21 05:10:00 - [73] Originally by: omgevenmoarfreemoniez Originally by: Balsak Damage types are really a non issue like was mentioned in the tournament. Everyone pretty much omni tanks anyways, combine that with drone and missile boats being able to mix up their damage types. It's not like Gallente get a bonus to their thermal damage drones only. Ever tried fighting a T2 ship while using the wrong damage types? Or killing a Drake with explosive? Switchable damage types DO matter. I've found something counter-intuitive about PvP tanks. Generally speaking, what started as their highest resist ends as their lowest resist because they protect against everything else. In my experience, Explosive is one of the best damage types against passive Drakes since they always have several EM amplifiers but rarely have more than one (If they even have that!) explosive amplifier. The typical PvP ship, though, has resists that are generally within 10-15% of each other, so changing damage types might not even make a noticeable difference.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.06.21 05:27:00 - [74] Originally by: Saelie The typical PvP ship, though, has resists that are generally within 10-15% of each other, so changing damage types might not even make a noticeable difference. I hope you're trying to say that the damage they receive is within 10û15%, because if you're talking about the actual resist values, that's a huge difference. Eg. 60 vs 70% resist → 40 vs. 30% damage getting through ù 33% more for the lower resist. 70 vs 80% resist → 30 vs. 20% damage getting through ù 50% more for the lower resist. 80 vs 90% resist → 20 vs. 10% damage getting through ù 100% more for the lower resist. A 10% difference in resist values is quite noticeableà ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Fumen Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.06.21 05:36:00 - [75] Originally by: Marlona Sky This. The bane of all Matari the galaxy over!!
Marz Ghola Minmatar Royal Order of Security Specialists	Posted - 2010.06.21 05:45:00 - [76] Edited by: Marz Ghola on 21/06/2010 05:46:26 It has already been said they have capless guns, but they also have the least amount of cap of all the races. Cap intensive mods/situations are not their best form. I have noticed in fleets, minny ships are often targeted first, since everyone knows they do (can do) good dps, yet are easy to break down. If someone makes a choice to fly Minmatar ships, they are taking a long training road compared to all races. Must train: -Shield tank -Armor tank -Gunnery -Missiles -Drones In particular, your tank skills (both of them) must be very good just to survive a bit longer on the field. Everyone also says "variable damage types". This is very hard to do on the fly since it takes 10 seconds to change types. If the enemy gang is mixed race, which is almost always, then they are the same as everyone else basically. So I don't buy into that too much. Minmatar ships have finally been given a little life, Gallente ships need that next I think.
ZiggyXX Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.21 05:55:00 - [77] Minmatar--FTW BIATCH!!! "In Rust We Trust"
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.21 07:55:00 - [78] Quote: You are forgetting: 1. Damage types. 2. Cap usage (Matari guns use no cap), an abaddon without cap mods is dead. 3. Tank. Whilst a Mael can happily use lows for damage mods, an abaddon cannot so easily 1. Second to Caldari, since Minmatar damage are split 2. Guns use no cap but ships are not only made to fire bullets. The second you start using anything but bullets, the hard capped Minmatar cap shows. We don't get "zero cap" weapons and that's it, we also get lowered cap limits in the same package. Quite skipped by yours truly (why?) but determinant factor. 3. A Mael is born and has bonuses as shield tank, it's just obvious it got easy lows for damage mods. BTW without damage mods the same Mael is horrible. IE the versatility (the only not nerfed Minmatar feature) has its price. I also tend to fly Amarr and Caldari and Amarr ships tend to pack a punch even without going so much all out to the extreme in damage mods. Quote: The Mael is just a very impressive BS under many circumstances. It's impressively slow for being a Minmatar ship, even when shield tanked, that's true. Quote: What? Very impressive alpha and dps Impressive alpha YES, IF you are within quite strict parameters of range and transversal. Having high alpha counts nothing if you cannot apply it, the difficulty of applying perfect alpha is what evens out with other races lower effort to get their nominal damage up. DPS, no. Not even in PvE, where you can gather statistics about sustained DPS. Quote: I am not going to argue against the drake. It's very ... boring ;) Drake is THE EvE BC, enough that I have bought the BPO to make them. Boring = yes, win = yes and that's what counts. From gate camping to soloing C3 WHs, it's the ship to go for maximum versatility and lowest training time. Quote: it's just that I find it difficult to find an as obvious flaw with Minmatar ships as with Gallente for example. Why, is being flawed something good enough that other races should also become flawed? If Gallente ships are flawed they should be fixed to be on par with the other 3 races, not vice-versa. Quote: Maybe ccp should balance all the races based on how they preform in the AT kinda like how blizzard rebalanced all classes in wow based on how they do in the arena That's what shows a ret4rded developer vs one that it's not. Quote: I can come up with many situations where I would rather be in the Maelstrom. Not that the 'baddon is bad. The Mael is just a very impressive BS under many circumstances. Mael follows the Minmatar limits of being good for smaller encounters. How does it feel to train for 1-2 years a race just to discover your capitals SUCK despite taking 30% longer to train? Amarr have it hard in the middle sized ships but then are THE scaling up fleet race at BS and beyond. In fact I am going to cross train Amarr because I want to feel actually worth a sh!t in a cap fleet, not playing just the "Primaried => dead" part. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2010.06.21 09:01:00 - [79] Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 21/06/2010 09:02:50 Originally by: Marz Ghola Must train: -Shield tank -Armor tank -Gunnery -Missiles -Drones Amarr equivalent must train the same points for, in your order: - curse, omen (lol), zealot - obvious - idem - khanid ships - geddon, arbitrator hulls It's not a racial weakness. About the tank whines: minmatar don't tank, they speed tank. Frankly you don't need perfect tanking skills with minnies. You need perfect navigation skills (a much shorter path). To whoever still thinks that scorch is great, I invite you to try it and see how long your range advantage lasts against minnie ships. If you are a RRBS blobber though this does not count: when your opponents are moron that don't move, that is. If you can't beat it, embrace it. I was amarr. I became minnie before the AC buff - they were already the best. Now it's fotm. PS - split weapons are a pro, not a con. The ruppie is the best cruiser in game for a reason.
ApollyN Excelsior Industries	Posted - 2010.06.21 09:17:00 - [80] Love the thread, -Minny used to be ugly redheaded stepchild and finally they get some good ships and tears all over. -Tempest - first to die in fleet battles cos it has less buffer than any other BS -'Phoon - Split dmg - more skills needed -Sleip - great dmg but who actively tanks these? - wasted shield boost bonus -All t2 armour tankers have abysmal resist holes (who needs 92.5 EM resist when kin, exp and therm (to some extent) are so bad? - Lookin at Wolf etc -They are high end ships that need good maneuvering and skill to use, not just MWD on, approach, web like blasters or lock, click launcher like missiles. Vaga is great until its caught, skill is in not getting caught -General mix of armour tanks, shield tanks, drones, arties and missiles means twice as much skills needed to fly the minny ships compared to gallente (drones, armour, blaster), Amarr(armour, lasers), Caldari (missiles, shields). -Have less armour and shields than any other race generally. Not surprised people with high sp get excellent results form these ships, they are hard to fly but can deliver superbly.

Alt Tabbed	Posted - 2010.06.21 09:43:00 - [81] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Watching AT8, I was thinking: Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones. Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps. Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types. Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue. What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? Grass is always greener at the other side isn't it? Maybe that's because it rains more there.
Opertone Caldari Metalworks Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.06.21 10:03:00 - [82] wait wait wait, minmatar move fast, shoot hard, have good tackle... you've never mentioned having strong tanks or solid ECM offensive modules, right, minmatar go one way only - straight to enemy lines and then either reprocessing plant or rig manufacturing. minmatar ships make decent rigs. GOLEMs have much higher life expectancy, and drakes fit enormous tank over DPS. Ammar sometimes have less speed, but far more passive and active tank than minmatar. Weird slot layout gives minmatar no chance to tank.
Demolishar United Aggression Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.06.21 10:22:00 - [83] Originally by: Opertone wait wait wait, minmatar move fast, shoot hard, have good tackle... you've never mentioned having strong tanks or solid ECM offensive modules, right, minmatar go one way only - straight to enemy lines and then either reprocessing plant or rig manufacturing. Minmatar ships have just as much tank as anything else you shove a 1600mm plate on. Minmatar T2 shield resists are godlike which leads to great tank on their T2 ships. They have long range webs as their racial EWAR and these are good for catching the FOTM nano ships. And they can use ECM drones.
Drykor Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.06.21 10:34:00 - [84] I can't believe I'm reading a thread about Minmatar being overpowered. They have (on average) weaker tanks and lower dps, their speed advantage got nerfed badly. Sure some nice changes have been made to the guns (which was very much needed) but they are in no way stronger than other races. Of course some ships will shine and others will suck, which is the same for all races. Guns not using cap? Sure, it's nice but how often do you become totally neuted out? Not to mention that without cap you usually can't move in range anyway. Picking damage types? Don't make me laugh. This is realistically NEVER done in midfight and barely ever beforehand. Besides, everyone uses barrage anyway which means there's no option. And as has been said before, resists are fairly equal across the board anyway and fights don't last long enough to find out the weakest resist which could often be anything if people plugged the holes. Personally I was always minmatar specced but I crosstrained to Amarr (before the AC changes). God I love Scorch. I also fly all T2 frigs and all T2 and T3 cruisers in game and tbh other than Gallente blaster issues (only on some ships) there are no real problems with any race in my opinion.
Spurty Caldari D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.06.21 10:59:00 - [85] Blasters are "I'm sitting on your head PWNing your face" guns. Why are you *****ing about them not being "I have a crap tank, I gotta keep moving" guns? Learn your weapon system, use them correctly. You want to move and shoot? Train up a race that does that. Can't make it to your target cause you are slow as a turtle? Stop fitting so many plates. CCP punish the foolish. Whining on forums will get you changes. I suspect you'll earn greater range and lose your incredible dps. I will not be happy to learn of such a change. I can pick any weapon type, I pick according to task. If there is a big ship to take down fast, blasters = best choice. Wont be if you can't learn how to use them. Zymurgist ACCIDENTALLY my thargoid
ObviousTroll Alt Gallente Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2010.06.21 11:30:00 - [86] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Watching AT8, I was thinking: Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones. Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps. Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types. Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue. What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? Duct Tape becomes brittle and weak in the cold of space.
Klausan GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.06.21 11:53:00 - [87] They dont have that many good PvE ships
Marz Ghola Minmatar Royal Order of Security Specialists	Posted - 2010.06.21 12:07:00 - [88] Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 21/06/2010 09:02:50 Originally by: Marz Ghola Must train: -Shield tank -Armor tank -Gunnery -Missiles -Drones Amarr equivalent must train the same points for, in your order: - curse, omen (lol), zealot - obvious - idem - khanid ships - geddon, arbitrator hulls It's not a racial weakness. About the tank whines: minmatar don't tank, they speed tank. Frankly you don't need perfect tanking skills with minnies. You need perfect navigation skills (a much shorter path). To whoever still thinks that scorch is great, I invite you to try it and see how long your range advantage lasts against minnie ships. If you are a RRBS blobber though this does not count: when your opponents are moron that don't move, that is. If you can't beat it, embrace it. I was amarr. I became minnie before the AC buff - they were already the best. Now it's fotm. PS - split weapons are a pro, not a con. The ruppie is the best cruiser in game for a reason. The point being overall, minmatar must train the most amount of skills vs. all other races. I am aware of what to train with other races as I fly most. And yes, you do need excellent tank skills as your comparisons are too linear to be realistic. This is not amarr vs. minmatar. I have never been in any engagement in low sec against an enemy fleet that flew all minmatar, or all amarr, etc. Regarding the ruppy being the best cruiser, you would be broke for life trying to sell that BS to any good arby pilot who fits TD's like they should. Fact is, if you want mobility warfare and do a number of things "OK" then do Minmatar, but train longer for it. If you want to put out sickening tons and piles of DPS and tank like a mean mf'er, then do Amarr. It is more a matter of what role to fill for a group than any of this "amarr need a buff, we can't beat minmatar" nonsense. Nice thing is, once you have trained up Minmatar nicely, you can easily train up other races to fill in the holes of the minmatar line-up. Like bc/bs that don't melt like butter in a furnace among other things.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb Focused Intentions	Posted - 2010.06.21 12:22:00 - [89] Edited by: Wacktopia on 21/06/2010 12:26:36 All this talk of resists and Minny flavour-of-the-month just reminds me of the reason I chose to fly Gallente :) You know, Minmatar ships are just like those annoying flies you cannot kill in the summer time. What you really want is a beefed-up hero ship that you can stick in the fight and scream something like "yeehaaaa leerroyyyy! Yippee-ki-yay futhermuckers!" and not care if you win or lose.
Cozmik R5 Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2010.06.21 12:49:00 - [90] Originally by: Klausan They dont have that many good PvE ships Ever done L4 missions in a Sleipnir? It's a complete joke. ____________________ Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.

Xaroth Brook Minmatar BIG Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.06.21 12:59:00 - [91] you guys do know this is just a game, right? I mean.. 3 pages worth of rabble on what race is FotM and has the largest pvpeen ... instead it's best to figure out who's second best, as obviously the second something becomes FotM it will be adjusted to be in line, at which point the #2 becomes the new #1 .. think about it.. white will be the new black Xaroth Brook BIG www.big-eve.com
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.06.21 13:04:00 - [92] Changeable damage type is a disadvantage: - One needs to know the resistances of a target in advance or the chance for using the right type is only 1:4. - To find the best out of the four damage types in order to gain an advantage during a fight takes time and reduces the total DPS. - A target with even resistances makes changing the damage type a futile effort. - One needs to carry more ammo than what is needed for destroying a target. - The eight projectile ammo types do not directly translate into the four damage types, making switching not as easy as some believe it to be. --
Arous Drephius	Posted - 2010.06.21 13:07:00 - [93] Minmatar's one true weakness is the duct tape factories. Without them, they're nothing!
Brooks Puuntai Minmatar Solar Nexus. OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.21 13:22:00 - [94] So this is a Eft warrior/AT most used race OP whine thread I take it. Minmatar are the best when it comes to small gang/solo warfare. Its always been like that the combination of speed and versatility is perfect for that type of PVP. However in larger fleet engagements it is very sub par due to low sensor strength and usually weaker tank. Combined with large guns primarily artillery which has decent alpha but extremely slow rate of fire also cripples it in fleets especially after the HP buff. Also always fighting in falloff isn't the most efficient way of doing things either. Minmatar does in fact require more SP to fly in order to utilize the versatility of the different ships. Granted if you only train for 1 fit for 1 ship it will take the same as any other race.
Cepone	Posted - 2010.06.21 13:32:00 - [95] Edited by: Cepone on 21/06/2010 13:32:04 Yes biggest weakness with minmatar is big fleet engagements , love guy who said a vagabond can choose when to engage and the zealot has to stay and fight. Well the vagabond can't snipe like the zealot so boo hoo. Also looks like the op and the other minmatar beaters look past the valid points about the minmatar weaknesses and just keep on trolling , hopefully this sheep thread dies soon.
Henry Valkyn	Posted - 2010.06.21 13:48:00 - [96] I don't understand why the whole "It takes more SP to fly Minmatar ships" is an argument. Ideally, all races should have options that are good in all aspects of the game. Old players all have decent skills and can easily fly all types of ships. The problem lies in the fact that Minmatar is now favoured by players for what is popularized as "fun pvp" (small and medium scale pvp). Surely that must be an indicator that something is off. And to the people commenting on the fact thinking some of us are 'crying'... let me point out that this is a DISCUSSION forum. The problem is not the fact that Minmatar ships may arguably have a weaker tank (when they finally active tank) or that their dps is a bit lower, the problem is that they are able to dictate engagements to a much larger degree than other races, due to their weapons (Autocannons with large falloff can hit anything from 2km to 50km), speed (nerfed compared to before, but still a huge advantage). Balanced gameplay does not put people who usually stick to one race to switch over to another because the benefit is so much larger. I wouldn't mind Minmatar ships having the benefits they have right now, but pretty please with sugar on the top, remove a bit of the tracking when working at crazy falloff ranges. The falloff is arguably the problem, as a decent Cynabal/Vagabond pilot can start a fight without really comitting to it. There are too many outs possible and too few options available compared to the other races. "Fit a tracking disruptor" is not an answer to this problem. Most setups you roam with will be generic to some extent and while I can appreciate EWAR ships and their roles, they do not address the greater issue.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.06.21 14:19:00 - [97] Undoubtably THIS
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.06.21 15:02:00 - [98] Low sensor strength, weak tank, and mediocre damage on autocannons compared to pulse lasers/missiles at range and compared to blasters up close.
Letrange Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2010.06.21 15:03:00 - [99] @OP Tank, that's our weakness. Web us and we go poof.
Seishi Maru Organization for Nuclear Research	Posted - 2010.06.21 15:25:00 - [100] Minmatar have their weakness. They are FAR inferior on BUFFER tanking on the battleship range. Their shield boost bonus is a waste most of time. Minmatar are as predominant on medium ships as the ammar are with battleships. Just a case of orientation of their mechanics. Less total HP than other races on most category of ships. AC DO NOT have good optimal they are ALWAYS on falloff so their DPS is NOT the theoretical. They have LESS capacitor than other races (that cancels the no usage from the projectiles). Arties ahve the worse tracking of everything in game. Lower sensor strenght, shortest lock range (MUCH more relevant than scan resolution most of time). Several ships are SPLIT, undecided behavior or have a wasted bonus. Example, maelstrom, cyclone and sleipnir wasted bonus (most of time). Rapier and huggin wasted painter bonus. Huggin and typhoon split weapons. Tempest complete jack of all trades master of absolutely nothing. Speed was nerfed into nothingness a few expansions ago, removing from the game the MAIN MINMATAR way of life. So the speed advantage is a MARGINAL one right now for most ships. At end minmatar are VERY versatile and very good when you are not sure what to expect and might need to change tactics on the fly. Exactly the current tournament scenario. There are SEVERAL combat environment where for example the HUGE range advantage of pulse lasers make ammar the supreme ships. OR where being able to field a massive armor buffer tank is the best option. Or where speed advantage means squat (see if the tempest speed helps anythign when you have 5 frigates webbing you). Minmatar are currently what they are supposed to be. Tournament is the one that created a scenario where minmatar are the best ones.

Megan Maynard Minmatar Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.21 16:08:00 - [101] Originally by: Devil tiger I'd say its sensor strenght and damn near worthless racial e-war type, which isn't a real weakness since all racial except Caldari suck equally bad (which is near OP so everybody uses it thus making it ok). LOL, target painters suck FOTM..... That's why almost every team has fielded target painters right? They suck so baaaaad. Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down. Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2010.06.21 16:09:00 - [102] well if this new amarr laser heterodyning proceedure works out they'll have a weapon tuned to destroy duct tape. this will be the end of minmatar ships in eve.
Max Queso	Posted - 2010.06.21 16:13:00 - [103] Originally by: Henry Valkyn ...all races should have options that are good in all aspects of the game. Why is this ideal? I'd have long since stopped playing if the races lacked diversity and were just a the same ships with different skins. Originally by: Henry Valkyn The problem lies in the fact that Minmatar is now favoured by players for what is popularized as "fun pvp" (small and medium scale pvp). Surely that must be an indicator that something is off. If this is true then something has always been off. Since I've been playing there's always been 'fotm'. It stands to reason that a game as diverse in shiptypes as Eve will always see the pendulum swing from one ship to another as changes are made. Originally by: Henry Valkyn ...the problem is that they are able to dictate engagements to a much larger degree than other races, due to their weapons (Autocannons with large falloff can hit anything from 2km to 50km), speed (nerfed compared to before, but still a huge advantage). As being able to dictate range is pretty much THE defining attribute of Minmatar ships, so you could have saved a bit of typing here by just saying 'Nerf Minmatar!' Originally by: Henry Valkyn The falloff is arguably the problem, as a decent Cynabal/Vagabond pilot can start a fight without really comitting to it. There are too many outs possible and too few options available compared to the other races. This is as close as you come to a seriously valid argument I think. With the buff to tracking enhancers, those ships that already had falloff bonuses were the most blessed, and became quite powerful indeed. Whether it was to much or not is something that I'm sure the devs can keep an eye on. Originally by: Henry Valkyn ...remove a bit of the tracking when working at crazy falloff ranges. Originally by: Henry Valkyn "Fit a tracking disruptor" is not an answer to this problem.
Backho	Posted - 2010.06.21 16:27:00 - [104] Um. just because someone wiped the floor with scrubs in the tournament doesnt mean the race is overpowered. Your point is moot. OP is troll and everyone is feeding him. good job.
Julius Romanus Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.21 16:32:00 - [105] The Rifter, Rupture, and Hurricane do not have a weakness compared to other races options. The battleships are closer. AC's leave too much powergrid on the lower classes. ------------------ Fix Rockets.
B1FF	Posted - 2010.06.21 16:34:00 - [106] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Minmatar turrets are capless. They can still be neutralised, most obviously through the used of tracking disruptors. That's not a minmitar disadvantage that's a turret disadvantage.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.21 16:43:00 - [107] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/06/2010 16:44:39 Quote: Minmatar ships have just as much tank as anything else you shove a 1600mm plate on Sure, you can also shove a 50mm plate on a Ferrari, it'll be like a tank. Nevermind it won't do its supposed unique function of being fast and agile. And then? You put a plate ofc you have to forget damage mods and then you get what? A low damage, average tank, not-agile anymore piece of trash? Quote: Ever done L4 missions in a Sleipnir? It's a complete joke Did you get beyond the 20M per hour mark? Otherwise THAT is a complete joke. Quote: I don't understand why the whole "It takes more SP to fly Minmatar ships" is an argument. Ideally, all races should have options that are good in all aspects of the game I trained my Caldari missioneer in half the time of the Minmatar one and she's performing as good. That for me IS an argument. Quote: I wouldn't mind Minmatar ships having the benefits they have right now, but pretty please with sugar on the top, remove a bit of the tracking when working at crazy falloff ranges. What about we waited for YEARS to have tracking improved and now you want us back to the crapper? Quote: The Rifter, Rupture, and Hurricane do not have a weakness compared to other races options. The battleships are closer. Besides Minmatar ARE the race that is good with small ships to counterbalance the worthlessness at anything beyond battleship, with stuff like Punisher, Drake (and even Cormorant) around, there are competitive alternatives. "The battleships are closer" is completely foul. Once again, use a Phoon and you get the versatile 1v1 vessel, but wait, in fleet they don't want it. They want some awfully low damage and primaried (right after Megas and little else) Tempest or similar. I wish I could trade Minmatar battleship with Amarr battleship V, I would finally feel worth a sh!t and with a path to capitals I currently don't have. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Demolishar United Aggression Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.06.21 17:01:00 - [108] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/06/2010 16:44:39 Quote: Minmatar ships have just as much tank as anything else you shove a 1600mm plate on Sure, you can also shove a 50mm plate on a Ferrari, it'll be like a tank. Nevermind it won't do its supposed unique function of being fast and agile. And then? You put a plate ofc you have to forget damage mods and then you get what? A low damage, average tank, not-agile anymore piece of trash? The 1600mm plated rupture is not considered best in it's class at all, is it? For doing 450 dps, with 35,000 ehp, and full tackle, and neuts, and reasonably good speed... Oh, and I forgot that just because the plated Hurricane out-damages, out-tanks, and out-utilities (you know what I mean) it's nearest equivalent ship - the plated Harbinger, that makes it a low damage, average tank, piece of trash Minmatar isn't just the Vagabond, you know...
Henry Valkyn	Posted - 2010.06.21 17:02:00 - [109] @ Max Queso I love how you ignore aspects of the arguments that doesn't fit into your responses. Limited-quoting is lovely. Having to specifically fit your ship to deal with a certain race (not ship mind you) when they can fit a general cookie-cutter setup cannot be optimal by game design. The autocannons are so powerful atm that artillery beyond the Muninn and other other very specific engagement styles/gangs, has to a degree become obsolete. Someone pure minmatar did mention earlier in this thread that they have come to prefer Autocannons because of the current state of them. Meanwhile, Gallente especially and to a certain degree Amarr cannot afford this luxury. Yes, I'm talking about small/medium gang pvp as it has been (!)popularized(!) as the most fun pvp. The tournament being constricted by rules may not give a totally accurate insight. Tt does however paint a large picture of the current use and benefits of the Minmatar ships with emphasis on Autocannons. I don't want a homogenic game, but I don't think it is unrealistic that all races should have options available that give them a similar range of tools to influence a fight. Right now however, Minmatar ships (especially the Cynabal and Vagabond) use the advantage they have to control the fight. Even if you send a ceptor after them they have a neut, ECM drones and can track the ceptor orbiting them at full speed. This combined with a large shield buffer with racial resists that favor this type of tanking make them optimal in all regards.
Saelie	Posted - 2010.06.21 17:26:00 - [110] Edited by: Saelie on 21/06/2010 17:29:08 I think my conclusions from the AT8 statistics still stand. Minmatar are great in small roaming gangs, provided they're grouped with other Minmatar. Their advantages become less useful and their weaknesses become more apparent if you fly them in larger groups or mixed fleets. This makes them popular for the Tournament (Though not necessarily any more effective, as the kill numbers indicate), but in genuine TQ PvP, most FCs aren't looking for Minmatar ships beyond tackle.

Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.21 17:30:00 - [111] Quote: The 1600mm plated rupture is not considered best in it's class at all, is it? For doing 450 dps, with 35,000 ehp, and full tackle, and neuts, and reasonably good speed... With what fitting, exactly? Quote: Yes, I'm talking about small/medium gang pvp as it has been (!)popularized(!) as the most fun pvp EvE is not the damn WoW, where you fetch the OP setup and win everytime, everywhere. If you want roam PvP you can sure pick Minmatar, if you want fleet PvP you are better to stick with Amarr, if you want caps fights you are NOT going Minmatar. You get an array of alternatives for an array of situations. What's wrong if YOU picked the wrong race for the PvP type you prefer? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Shaydun	Posted - 2010.06.21 17:33:00 - [112] Edited by: Shaydun on 21/06/2010 17:37:02 Edited by: Shaydun on 21/06/2010 17:33:44 Stop focusing on those 2 ships Henry Valkyn , one is a faction ship wich well i don't like cynabal or dramiel either as i find them op atm as they remind me of the old nano wars. The vaga is good for solo / small gang but that's it , eve isn't all about that , so if you remove the strenghts of minmatar wich is small gang right now and change nothing then minmatar will just be the weaklings again , how fun ! Amarr is king in fleet fights , minmatar is good in smallish gang fights and more of a "well if that's all you have then bring it" for large fleet battles other than tackling (the tempest is ok but no match for the amarrian gods). Eve has been like this from the start , some races are better in this and others excell in something else , deal with it , stop focusing on the vaga as it's not the only ship in eve and tq pvp isn't all about 10v10 or 1v1. Somehow no one said anything about the all amarr setup pl used on the way to the finals that did just as good , but since they went with minmatar for the finals this was bound to happen. Also most minmatar ships fielded were faction , other than sabres and that was due to well being a great ship for the points it cost to lose one in the tournament , didn't see many vagas or tempests or anything ;). Anyway done with this thread , it's like all the frustrated people who lost a ship to a minmatar pilot decided to come whine in this thread.
Drykor Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.06.21 17:34:00 - [113] Edited by: Drykor on 21/06/2010 17:34:18 Originally by: Demolishar Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/06/2010 16:44:39 Quote: Minmatar ships have just as much tank as anything else you shove a 1600mm plate on Sure, you can also shove a 50mm plate on a Ferrari, it'll be like a tank. Nevermind it won't do its supposed unique function of being fast and agile. And then? You put a plate ofc you have to forget damage mods and then you get what? A low damage, average tank, not-agile anymore piece of trash? The 1600mm plated rupture is not considered best in it's class at all, is it? For doing 450 dps, with 35,000 ehp, and full tackle, and neuts, and reasonably good speed... Oh, and I forgot that just because the plated Hurricane out-damages, out-tanks, and out-utilities (you know what I mean) it's nearest equivalent ship - the plated Harbinger, that makes it a low damage, average tank, piece of trash Minmatar isn't just the Vagabond, you know... AHAHAHHAHA, show me this plated hurricane setup that outdamages a proper Harbinger beyond autocannon optimal (which is basically nothing)
Lorieen AQ Militis Seprentia	Posted - 2010.06.21 17:38:00 - [114] Quote: What is the one true weakness of minmatar ships? Its the same as all the rest of the ships in the game -> the pilot
Bonny Lee Caldari The Guardian Agency Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.06.21 17:46:00 - [115] Originally by: Henry Valkyn @ Max Queso I love how you ignore aspects of the arguments that doesn't fit into your responses. Limited-quoting is lovely. Having to specifically fit your ship to deal with a certain race (not ship mind you) when they can fit a general cookie-cutter setup cannot be optimal by game design. The autocannons are so powerful atm that artillery beyond the Muninn and other other very specific engagement styles/gangs, has to a degree become obsolete. Someone pure minmatar did mention earlier in this thread that they have come to prefer Autocannons because of the current state of them. Meanwhile, Gallente especially and to a certain degree Amarr cannot afford this luxury. Yes, I'm talking about small/medium gang pvp as it has been (!)popularized(!) as the most fun pvp. The tournament being constricted by rules may not give a totally accurate insight. Tt does however paint a large picture of the current use and benefits of the Minmatar ships with emphasis on Autocannons. I don't want a homogenic game, but I don't think it is unrealistic that all races should have options available that give them a similar range of tools to influence a fight. Right now however, Minmatar ships (especially the Cynabal and Vagabond) use the advantage they have to control the fight. Even if you send a ceptor after them they have a neut, ECM drones and can track the ceptor orbiting them at full speed. This combined with a large shield buffer with racial resists that favor this type of tanking make them optimal in all regards. Minmatar always was said to be the best solo/smallscale choice. Nothing has changed. 1. only few ships are able to hit orbiting Intys with ACs. Intys have to be careful if they tackle a vaga... it has always been like this. You also have to be careful if you tackle a Curse, a Arazu, a Rapier, a Huginn, a Lachesis or some other ships. A Cerberus also has a nice Shieldbuffer if you fit it to have one and it also can kill Ceptors. A Falcon can Jam and get away too. Your are only telling bull****. Your are either a troll or dont have a clue.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Unknown-Entity Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.21 17:58:00 - [116] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: The 1600mm plated rupture is not considered best in it's class at all, is it? For doing 450 dps, with 35,000 ehp, and full tackle, and neuts, and reasonably good speed... With what fitting, exactly? [Rupture, gank] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x4 Tah dah, ok it's slightly less then 35k, one 3% implant will get you there pretty easily Do you actually fly minmatar? Here's a 570ish dps glass cannon setup: [Rupture, New Setup 2] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II Warp Scrambler II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Stasis Webifier II 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Torrent Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Torrent Assault Missile Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I Medium Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I Hobgoblin II x4 Hammerhead II x1 Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down. Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.06.21 17:58:00 - [117] Originally by: Megan Maynard Originally by: Devil tiger I'd say its sensor strenght and damn near worthless racial e-war type, which isn't a real weakness since all racial except Caldari suck equally bad (which is near OP so everybody uses it thus making it ok). LOL, target painters suck FOTM..... That's why almost every team has fielded target painters right? They suck so baaaaad. Yup. Having one ship provide what essentially amounts to a tracking computer on each ship of the entire fleet is a really sucky benefità The slot savings on that alone should make your head spin. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Seishi Maru Organization for Nuclear Research	Posted - 2010.06.21 18:15:00 - [118] Originally by: Tippia Yup. Having one ship provide what essentially amounts to a tracking computer on each ship of the entire fleet is a really sucky benefità The slot savings on that alone should make your head spin. Woudl anyoen field those track comptuers if there was no target painters? Nope ! Because in any fleet you do not have ANY tracking issues at close range because the target will have like anything from 4 to 10 webs on it. Making target painters irrelevant. They are very useful only as support for torpedoes basically. On other situations they are a minimal support. On long range engagements target painters cannot reach anything (if they had more range then things would be different). They would be useful only on theoretical fights at around 50-60 km... a range that is not exactly a COMMON battleground. And even so .. only for a few seconds until the tacklers get to targets and remove the tracking issue. Target painter is a MINIMAL tool. So minimal that you NEVER see it on any serious combat unless you have stealth bombers, ravens or typhoons involved.
El Liptonez	Posted - 2010.06.21 18:22:00 - [119] Edited by: El Liptonez on 21/06/2010 18:25:15 Edited by: El Liptonez on 21/06/2010 18:22:48 Originally by: Lorieen Quote: What is the one true weakness of minmatar ships? Its the same as all the rest of the ships in the game -> the pilot Qft. But I think Minmatar ships are some of the least idiot proof ones. You can't simply sit there and hold your enemy down while he shoots you, unless you believe in plated ships and your enemy is not fit too well. It all depends on what size though, obviously, and on what you're fighting. Being in 0.0, I almost exclusively see nanoed Minmatar ships over all classes (that's generally a flavor of my alliance though). Their only tank is DPS, and more importantly, speed. And the "navigation" requires a little more skill than, for instance, a Drake sitting there holding its enemy down with web and scram. It's mostly about kiting frigates and killing other stuff before reinforcements arrive. Or run, when the situation goes **** (running in structure after the enemy said gf is just priceless ). At least that's the most fun for me. So, I find web+scram the easiest counter for Minmatar. In conclusion, what others already said: Their tank sucks, plated stuff aside. And in the end, if the pilot sucks, the ship is useless. I like all those Vagabonds burning to me at 0 to get a long range point.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.06.21 18:37:00 - [120] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/06/2010 18:45:24 Originally by: Megan Maynard Do you actually fly minmatar? I have so many times wondered that about you - but really I think it's just that you don't fly anything else. ;-) -Liang Ed: I want to also state that the 1600 plate Rupture is one of the best ships in class. I think the Rifter, Rupture, Hurricane, and Typhoon are about the only ships you can plate up and have anything approaching a reasonable ship - and even then I'd argue that the plate Hurricane isn't really that reasonable most of the time (too slow, not enough range or too little DPS). Anyway, Minmatar's strong, but IMO not overly strong. Gallente will still (today) stand up and ** any Minnie ship that wanders too close, and Amarr will still obliterate Minmatar utility on the fleet front. And yes I'm aware of my alliance's massive Tempest blobs. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire

Rhinanna Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2010.06.21 18:52:00 - [121] Quote: [Rupture, gank] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x4 Tah dah, ok it's slightly less then 35k, one 3% implant will get you there pretty easily Yeah this does a lot of damage.... at it's 1.4km optimal range.... And given the pretty dam slow top speed of it the chance of it getting that close and staying there are practically nil. You'll most likely spend most of the battle doing sub 100dps damage. Minmatar are good ships in the hands of experienced pilots, just not better than the other races. Minmatar have to reinforce their lesser buffer tank for pvp with speed to get as good or better than than the other races, when we get caught we die a lot quicker however. You can put out some great EFT fits that look fantasic on paper like that, try em out in combat, they don't work. Minmatar are about controlling range/transversal to get that extra tank the other races have back, learn to compensate for that (there are a lot of tactics that do it, a lot don't even involve more modules!) and you'd have no problems against them. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag)
Demolishar United Aggression Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:05:00 - [122] Originally by: Rhinanna Quote: [Rupture, gank] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M Standard Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Flameburst Light Missile Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x4 Tah dah, ok it's slightly less then 35k, one 3% implant will get you there pretty easily Yeah this does a lot of damage.... at it's 1.4km optimal range.... And given the pretty dam slow top speed of it the chance of it getting that close and staying there are practically nil. You'll most likely spend most of the battle doing sub 100dps damage. Minmatar are good ships in the hands of experienced pilots, just not better than the other races. Minmatar have to reinforce their lesser buffer tank for pvp with speed to get as good or better than than the other races, when we get caught we die a lot quicker however. You can put out some great EFT fits that look fantasic on paper like that, try em out in combat, they don't work. Minmatar are about controlling range/transversal to get that extra tank the other races have back, learn to compensate for that (there are a lot of tactics that do it, a lot don't even involve more modules!) and you'd have no problems against them. If you change every time you said "Minmatar" to "Vagabonds" you'd be spot on. But Minmatar is more than just the Vagabond.
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:08:00 - [123] Originally by: Max Queso Originally by: Henry Valkyn ...all races should have options that are good in all aspects of the game. Why is this ideal? I'd have long since stopped playing if the races lacked diversity and were just a the same ships with different skins. Originally by: Henry Valkyn The problem lies in the fact that Minmatar is now favoured by players for what is popularized as "fun pvp" (small and medium scale pvp). Surely that must be an indicator that something is off. If this is true then something has always been off. Since I've been playing there's always been 'fotm'. It stands to reason that a game as diverse in shiptypes as Eve will always see the pendulum swing from one ship to another as changes are made. Originally by: Henry Valkyn ...the problem is that they are able to dictate engagements to a much larger degree than other races, due to their weapons (Autocannons with large falloff can hit anything from 2km to 50km), speed (nerfed compared to before, but still a huge advantage). As being able to dictate range is pretty much THE defining attribute of Minmatar ships, so you could have saved a bit of typing here by just saying 'Nerf Minmatar!' Originally by: Henry Valkyn The falloff is arguably the problem, as a decent Cynabal/Vagabond pilot can start a fight without really comitting to it. There are too many outs possible and too few options available compared to the other races. This is as close as you come to a seriously valid argument I think. With the buff to tracking enhancers, those ships that already had falloff bonuses were the most blessed, and became quite powerful indeed. Whether it was to much or not is something that I'm sure the devs can keep an eye on. Originally by: Henry Valkyn ...remove a bit of the tracking when working at crazy falloff ranges. Originally by: Henry Valkyn "Fit a tracking disruptor" is not an answer to this problem. you can make a game with types of unique and different units that are still balanced. try abandonedrealms.com, they have 12 classes but have a paper > rock > scissor formula, and still manage to get the game balance down to within 2% deviation. thats ridiculously better than any other MMO out there. Additionally, MMO's main problem in balancing is the PVE/PVE divide. If they centered all CHARACTER balancing on PVP only, then they could easily tweak PVE content to work around that, and everything would be fine. However in a game like WoW, for instance, they decided to diverge PVP and PVE in both builds and equipment, which means that PVE's have to be catered to, and this causes imba for PVP's which also have to be catered to, which causes imba for PVE's, and so on the vicious cycle of fail. There's 1, repeat 1, frigate in the T1 lineup designed to be a suicide tackler. the rest are for COMBAT. so don't tell me to tackle when I'm in a combat T1 frig. OR tell CCP to fix their mess.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:16:00 - [124] Quote: Tah dah, ok it's slightly less then 35k, one 3% implant will get you there pretty easily Way to inflate (price and) setups. It does not do 450 DPS It does not have 35k and a 3% armor is not the implant I'd go after. This while using faction ammo, all skills to V and whatever. If you remove the faction stuff you lose 100 DPS, are you sure NO other ship can make up a similar hormone-inflated fitting? Drones in this setup do 110 DPS alone, nerf Gallente? Let me EFT-crap out something too: [Thorax, New Setup 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M Medium Ancillary Current Router I Hammerhead II x5 3% implant as well 490 DPS, faster, 9% less tank. With just 1 rig. NERF GALLENTE too? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Angst IronShard	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:16:00 - [125] Matari's ships weaknesses are low PG and capacitor.
Demolishar United Aggression Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:30:00 - [126] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Tah dah, ok it's slightly less then 35k, one 3% implant will get you there pretty easily Way to inflate (price and) setups. It does not do 450 DPS It does not have 35k and a 3% armor is not the implant I'd go after. This while using faction ammo, all skills to V and whatever. If you remove the faction stuff you lose 100 DPS, are you sure NO other ship can make up a similar hormone-inflated fitting? Drones in this setup do 110 DPS alone, nerf Gallente? Let me EFT-crap out something too: [Thorax, New Setup 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge M Medium Ancillary Current Router I Hammerhead II x5 3% implant as well 490 DPS, faster, 9% less tank. With just 1 rig. NERF GALLENTE too? You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Stop posting.
TheLordofAllandNothing Caldari NailorTech Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.21 19:51:00 - [127] Minmatar subcaps are awesome. Their capitals on the other hand are a steaming pile of ****. Nidhoggur = worse version of the thanatos. Naglfar = split weapons and citadel missiles. Hel = categorically the worst supercarrier(although it looks cool) . Ragnarok = meh, i'd rather have an erebus. _______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =(
Drykor Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:01:00 - [128] Originally by: Demolishar You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Stop posting. Actually he does. He just proved that EFT whoring makes no sense whatsoever here. The DPS you get from Minmatar ships is theoretical and is almost always severely penalized by falloff. Sure the Rupture is a nice ship, for a T1. As is the Vexor, Blackbird, Arbitrator, Omen, even the Thorax after speednerf isn't really that bad as people make it out to be. I don't know if I'd put the Caracal there but meh, even that has its uses. I just don't understand you people, Minmatar and their entire way of fighting got hit in the face badly with the speed nerf, they got a much needed buff (their guns were CRAP and they had no compensation in terms of speed anymore) and people are whining again. Maybe it's just the high average skill of hit-and-run Minmatar pilots that bothers you. You know some people chose that race to get a challenge and to actually have to fly the ship instead of 'keep distance at 500 and fire blasters' or 'load scorch and tank and gank' or something similar.
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:13:00 - [129] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Watching AT8, I was thinking: Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones. Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps. Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types. Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue. What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? -AC optimal is the lowest optimal of all close range weapon -Good dps but they still have the lowest dps turrets of all EVE -weaker all around tank
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:22:00 - [130] Quote: Actually he does. He just proved that EFT whoring makes no sense whatsoever here. The DPS you get from Minmatar ships is theoretical and is almost always severely penalized by falloff Exactly. I made a pile of crck to reply to the same matter. Who cares that on paper I can do 1 zillion DPS, when unlike someone else just sitting and tanking it, I have to zip in and out, watch indicators more closely and so on? They exactly put high DPS at optimal so that people could still kill something at falloff. Quote:* Maybe it's just the high average skill of hit-and-run Minmatar pilots that bothers you. You know some people chose that race to get a challenge and to actually have to fly the ship instead of 'keep distance at 500 and fire blasters' or 'load scorch and tank and gank' or something similar. That has to be it. Minmatar have always been those with most low sec, worst PvE ships (till recently), nasty Thukker "kins", have to learn drones AND missiles AND guns and also possibly both armor and shield tank. This makes the players flexible (or it caters to those already like that) and thus harder to fight. I always picture Minmatar as rapier duellists, Amarr as middle age, muscular 5mm thick steel armor and double edged sword and so on. Different skillsets for different styles. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz

Demolishar United Aggression Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:26:00 - [131] Originally by: Drykor Maybe it's just the high average skill of hit-and-run Minmatar pilots that bothers you. You know some people chose that race to get a challenge and to actually have to fly the ship instead of 'keep distance at 500 and fire blasters' or 'load scorch and tank and gank' or something similar. I fly a Curse. It's got 2 nanofibers on it, yet it's 1000m/s slower than a Vagabond with NO nanos, and has a worse align time. I have maxed navigation skills as well. I still manage to kite with it though. And you're then saying kiting in a Vagabond or Cynabal is DIFFICULT? Try kiting in a ship of another race, you'll find that near impossible. Minmatar have a monopoly on good kiting ships, how is that balanced when everyone and his dog these days wants to nano?
Shaydun	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:45:00 - [132] Edited by: Shaydun on 21/06/2010 20:56:35 Edited by: Shaydun on 21/06/2010 20:52:57 That is just one part of eve , minmatar is weaker on big scale , how is that not balanced ? Hey let's look at what the other race has going for them and ignore the fact that the race i fly is superior in x y and z Curse is also op as it can just neut anything that gets close to it and disengage at will it can even run away from a vagabond ! way too op , plus they have great optimal wich means they actually hit for full dps , instant reload , best fleet bs's , best fleet hac's best carrier best mothership , they enslave minmatar ... wow :( To poster below , well i'm sure most of the big alliances would disagree , they're pretty happy with the land they managed to conquer due to the bigger ships and fleet battles , small roams are the most fun of eve for me too but i also like the epic fights , so i can fly amarr and minmatar . There's some people that only like large fleet ops , others small , can't really speak for them when saying no one cares about it , you and i care mostly about small sized roams , but i'm sure there's alot of people that get their kicks from big ops and bashing those ugly pos's etc .
Demolishar United Aggression Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:52:00 - [133] Thing is, that one part of EVE, is the one part everyone wants a part of.
El Liptonez	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:56:00 - [134] Originally by: Demolishar Originally by: Drykor Maybe it's just the high average skill of hit-and-run Minmatar pilots that bothers you. You know some people chose that race to get a challenge and to actually have to fly the ship instead of 'keep distance at 500 and fire blasters' or 'load scorch and tank and gank' or something similar. I fly a Curse. It's got 2 nanofibers on it, yet it's 1000m/s slower than a Vagabond with NO nanos, and has a worse align time. I have maxed navigation skills as well. I still manage to kite with it though. And you're then saying kiting in a Vagabond or Cynabal is DIFFICULT? Try kiting in a ship of another race, you'll find that near impossible. Minmatar have a monopoly on good kiting ships, how is that balanced when everyone and his dog these days wants to nano? You said you kite in your curse and then say minmatar have the monopoly in kiting? Or did I misunderstand you? The fact that Minmatar have to kite just shows that they're not meant to be in close range combat, just like the curse. I don't see how you can possibly lose your ship to someone kiting. Kiting only works if someone is stupid enough to follow you, I wouldn't call that stupidity imbalance.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.21 20:57:00 - [135] Quote: Thing is, that one part of EVE, is the one part everyone wants a part of I suppose cross training to Minmatar frig and cruiser is still some tiny bit easier than for me to cross train to Amarr Carrier and Dread and related gunnery - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Demolishar United Aggression Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.06.21 21:23:00 - [136] Originally by: El Liptonez Originally by: Demolishar Originally by: Drykor Maybe it's just the high average skill of hit-and-run Minmatar pilots that bothers you. You know some people chose that race to get a challenge and to actually have to fly the ship instead of 'keep distance at 500 and fire blasters' or 'load scorch and tank and gank' or something similar. I fly a Curse. It's got 2 nanofibers on it, yet it's 1000m/s slower than a Vagabond with NO nanos, and has a worse align time. I have maxed navigation skills as well. I still manage to kite with it though. And you're then saying kiting in a Vagabond or Cynabal is DIFFICULT? Try kiting in a ship of another race, you'll find that near impossible. Minmatar have a monopoly on good kiting ships, how is that balanced when everyone and his dog these days wants to nano? You said you kite in your curse and then say minmatar have the monopoly in kiting? Or did I misunderstand you? The fact that Minmatar have to kite just shows that they're not meant to be in close range combat, just like the curse. I don't see how you can possibly lose your ship to someone kiting. Kiting only works if someone is stupid enough to follow you, I wouldn't call that stupidity imbalance. No, I said Minmatar have a monopoly in GOOD kiting ships. The Curse is a passable kiter, but far from good. But since I can't fly Minmatar, and I don't like training FOTM...
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.21 21:28:00 - [137] Originally by: Demolishar No, I said Minmatar have a monopoly in GOOD kiting ships. The Curse is a passable kiter, but far from good. But since I can't fly Minmatar, and I don't like training FOTM... Shocker that the race that has the fastest ships designed around the hit and run philosophy have the best kiting ships in thee game. No body said you have to train it because it's FOTM but you can train it if you want to fly those ships. Excluding yourself from something just because it is FOTM is just silly. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I suppose cross training to Minmatar frig and cruiser is still some tiny bit easier than for me to cross train to Amarr Carrier and Dread and related gunnery This.
Shaydun	Posted - 2010.06.21 21:31:00 - [138] Yeah just accept min is good at small scale and amarr / rest are better in large scale , otherwise give minmatar the advantages the others have in the larger scale of stuff then let this thread die ;) Took years for minmatar to even be fun flying compare to the rest so hold on with the panic
Demolishar United Aggression Eternal Ascension	Posted - 2010.06.21 21:58:00 - [139] Originally by: Balsak Originally by: Demolishar No, I said Minmatar have a monopoly in GOOD kiting ships. The Curse is a passable kiter, but far from good. But since I can't fly Minmatar, and I don't like training FOTM... Shocker that the race that has the fastest ships designed around the hit and run philosophy have the best kiting ships in thee game. No body said you have to train it because it's FOTM but you can train it if you want to fly those ships. Excluding yourself from something just because it is FOTM is just silly. It would take me years to train a Vagabond. By then, it would probably not be FOTM anymore.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.06.21 22:03:00 - [140] Originally by: Demolishar Originally by: Balsak Originally by: Demolishar No, I said Minmatar have a monopoly in GOOD kiting ships. The Curse is a passable kiter, but far from good. But since I can't fly Minmatar, and I don't like training FOTM... Shocker that the race that has the fastest ships designed around the hit and run philosophy have the best kiting ships in thee game. No body said you have to train it because it's FOTM but you can train it if you want to fly those ships. Excluding yourself from something just because it is FOTM is just silly. It would take me years to train a Vagabond. By then, it would probably not be FOTM anymore. Years? Have you trained any learning skills and have any attribute implants in? Provided you aready have the support skills up to snuff all you will need is minmatar cruiser 5 and small/medium projectile 5 so you can fit t2 guns. Thats about three months if you don't have optimal attributes or implants and much shorter if you do.

Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.21 22:08:00 - [141] Originally by: Demolishar Originally by: Balsak Originally by: Demolishar No, I said Minmatar have a monopoly in GOOD kiting ships. The Curse is a passable kiter, but far from good. But since I can't fly Minmatar, and I don't like training FOTM... Shocker that the race that has the fastest ships designed around the hit and run philosophy have the best kiting ships in thee game. No body said you have to train it because it's FOTM but you can train it if you want to fly those ships. Excluding yourself from something just because it is FOTM is just silly. It would take me years to train a Vagabond. By then, it would probably not be FOTM anymore. Years ? Really ? Besides you aren't training it because it's fotm, you are training it because it does what you want to do. Oh well it's just easier to whine that Amarr (the armor tanking race) aren't as fast as Minmatar (the hit and run race).
Discrodia Gallente Blue Sun Heavy Industries	Posted - 2010.06.21 22:24:00 - [142] Originally by: Rhinanna Yeah your missing that you've kinda combined ACs and arties there great optimal -- tech 2 425mm (mid) optimal 2.2km.... ACs and arties have the shortest optimals of all gun types. ACs have a lower max dps than blasters and that damage starts decaying due to the short optimal much quicker than blasters. Lasers can sit at their optimals from ACs and be beyond their optimal+falloffs, in many circumstances be about half-way to falloff again. Unlike lasers, AC users have to get optimal and have to spend 10 seconds to change ammo type which normally isn't worth it mid fight so while you can choose ammo you kinda have to do it before the fight starts. You forgot to mention that the nebulous void that is mimy falloff is also pretty much the longest falloff of all the races weapons (27+km on 800mm Autos, 15+ on 425mm autos) and it's likely even greater on arty. The ammo problem is rarely a big one, as in most PvP everyone omni-tanks so as long as you fit ammo with good damage it isn't much of a problem. Also, no one uses autos at optimal. That would be foolish and rather fatal as well. In response to OP: I'd say their main weaknesses are webs, ECM, and Amarrian slavery. Originally by: CCP Adida Wait where am I... Don't remember a thing from last night.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.21 23:30:00 - [143] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/06/2010 23:33:38 Base 800mm falloff is 19.2km. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Barkaial Starfinder Minmatar Conflagration.	Posted - 2010.06.21 23:54:00 - [144] Good god... After reading 5 pages of mostly nonsense, I came to the conclusion some people think minmatar MUST BE BAD. We have had some good ships, and now our turrets can hit. We got more viable setups now than before, and we are good. Good is not overpowered, stop trying to look silly making stuff up. Bye
Cor Aidan Shore Leave	Posted - 2010.06.22 00:37:00 - [145] Edited by: Cor Aidan on 22/06/2010 00:38:05 Originally by: 1Ekrid1 you can make a game with types of unique and different units that are still balanced. try abandonedrealms.com, they have 12 classes but have a paper > rock > scissor formula, and still manage to get the game balance down to within 2% deviation. thats ridiculously better than any other MMO out there. Rock-paper-scissors is inherently unbalanced, even if you ensure that rock always beats paper always beats scissors, because scissors can never beat paper. Actually there's a caveat: rock-paper-scissors is balanced assuming that rock, paper, and scissors have the same likelihood of occurring. That said, I'm curious as to what you mean by "2% deviation" for balance - is that in distribution of population of classes or any class vs any other will succeed 48% to 52% of the time? If it's the latter then it's not rock-paper-scissors but is truly balanced. A truly balanced system would have A beats B with the same probability that B beats A, given equal-skilled participants. Note that this doesn't mean that A is B, but that the likelihood of a situation where A beats B is just as probable as a situation where B beats A. New Eden is obviously unbalanced in several areas to one extent or another by empirical evidence: whenever there is a post asking "what's the best for XXX?" there will most likely be a very few options. Evidence of balance would be "it doesn't matter, they are all the same." Even the QEN statistics bear this out - a very few number of ships dominate the "active ships" list. I would say that New Eden ship design isn't about balance at all, but is about roles. Ships excel at particular roles (although even within a role typically there is only one or two of the variants that is empirically better than the others based on probability of finding a particular ship in space). Now, that said, there may be an argument that New Eden is quite balanced in terms of gangs or fleets because there are vast combinations of groups that are equally likely to succeed against other groups given the probable occurrences of those groups. I haven't seen much evidence that there is one type of gang or fleet that is always flown over others - although I admit I've not done that much research into gang composition versus gang success versus likelihood of seeing that type of gang. Ultimately, though, people don't want a balanced system. They want a system where it's possible to have a better than 50% success rate regardless of skill. Once you account for skill, there's no such thing as a balanced system, though, because no system yet devised can reliably compensate for skill variation.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.06.22 01:48:00 - [146] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Actually he does. He just proved that EFT whoring makes no sense whatsoever here. The DPS you get from Minmatar ships is theoretical and is almost always severely penalized by falloff Exactly. I made a pile of crck to reply to the same matter. Who cares that on paper I can do 1 zillion DPS, when unlike someone else just sitting and tanking it, I have to zip in and out, watch indicators more closely and so on? They exactly put high DPS at optimal so that people could still kill something at falloff. You guys posting this argument that Minmatar do "theorycrafted"-dps realize that ie. a vagabond can start doing damage at around 40km and still have very nice tracking, whereas ships without the falloff can do jack-all damage at that distance (which is why kiting is so great for Minmatar). It doesn't really matter if you do not do max theoretical dps when your enemy isn't doing any dps at all back at you. I gladly fly Minmatar and have a 425mm Cynabal do nice damage at 40+km against any Gallente sub-capship. Because they simply cannot hit me unless maybe* they field an Arazu/Lachesis that manages to scram me before I notice it. That's the good thing about being multi-raced, that I gladly can field these ships. :P
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.22 01:57:00 - [147] I would hardly call the Cynabal, and the other Angel faction ships Minmatar. Yes they require the Minmatar ship and projectile skills (along with Gallente ship skill) but they are in their own league all together and claiming them as Minmatar and using them as examples of Minmatar ships is not very fair at all. Even though they share the same skill sets they are not Minmatar. Oh well you just keep ignoring the actual negatives that have been pointed out many times already.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.06.22 02:05:00 - [148] Originally by: Balsak I would hardly call the Cynabal, and the other Angel faction ships Minmatar. Yes they require the Minmatar ship and projectile skills (along with Gallente ship skill) but they are in their own league all together and claiming them as Minmatar and using them as examples of Minmatar ships is not very fair at all. Even though they share the same skill sets they are not Minmatar. Oh well you just keep ignoring the actual negatives that have been pointed out many times already. I'm not really ignoring it. As I've already said I accept there are weaknessess. And a vagabond can do similar things a Cynabal can anyways. Great falloff with tracking enhancers are pretty much a racial bonus.
Kethry Avenger PIE Inc.	Posted - 2010.06.22 02:06:00 - [149] I am obviously biased but still. Minmatar guns should be restricted to explosive and kinetic damage, mostly explosive to bring them in line with other races, at the very least. I would also love to see them use a little cap, say half to a third of what Gallante use. I think they should drop most of their misslie hard points and have them replaced with guns. I have never understood why Minmatar recons developed web bonuses to slow down the speedy Amarr ships, and why Amarr recons developed cap neutralizing bonuses to cap out the primarily non-cap using Minmatar ships. In an E-war boost do something to make target painters more effective, and have tracking disruptors work on missile guidance systems.
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.22 02:22:00 - [150] Originally by: Kethry Avenger I am obviously biased but still. Minmatar guns should be restricted to explosive and kinetic damage, mostly explosive to bring them in line with other races, at the very least. I would also love to see them use a little cap, say half to a third of what Gallante use. I think they should drop most of their misslie hard points and have them replaced with guns. I have never understood why Minmatar recons developed web bonuses to slow down the speedy Amarr ships, and why Amarr recons developed cap neutralizing bonuses to cap out the primarily non-cap using Minmatar ships. In an E-war boost do something to make target painters more effective, and have tracking disruptors work on missile guidance systems. You're right, you are obviously biased. Changing damage types is one of our racial distinctions, just like how not having to fill your cargo hold with ammo is one of the Amarrs. Our main damage type is explosive in case you haven't looked at fusion ammo and Hounds damage bonus type. Again like I said in a previous post it's not like other races cannot mix up their damage types if they wanted. Tech 2 projectiles did use 1 cap per shot back when tech 2 guns came in. CCP decided this was silly and removed it, capless weapons was another one of the racial distinctions for Minmatar to offset the fact we have the worst cap in the game. Our recons got bonus to webs and painters to help with our **** poor tracking and the fact we have missiles as a secondary weapons system. Amarr recons got a tracking disruptor bonus to counter Minmatar projectiles and a neut / nos bonus to kill our already crap cap and to boost your own cap if needed. Target painters are fine as is and asking for tracking disruptors to work vs missile systems is just silly, do you really want them to be that overpowered ? Everyone would fit them as a no-brainer defense vs everything but drones.

Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.06.22 03:10:00 - [151] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/06/2010 03:09:55 Originally by: Tobias Sjodin You guys posting this argument that Minmatar do "theorycrafted"-dps realize that ie. a vagabond can start doing damage at around 40km and still have very nice tracking, whereas ships without the falloff can do jack-all damage at that distance (which is why kiting is so great for Minmatar). It doesn't really matter if you do not do max theoretical dps when your enemy isn't doing any dps at all back at you. The ability to do minuscule amounts of damage at range "nobody can return fire" is really rather useless - mostly because fights either don't happen there or are largely meaningless. If they aren't tackled, there's no point... and if they are tackled you should probably get into an engagement range that makes sense. I mean really, the damage output from a Hurricane at 40km is almost entirely from drones - and lots of ships have those. Quote: I gladly fly Minmatar and have a 425mm Cynabal do nice damage at 40+km against any Gallente sub-capship. Because they simply cannot hit me unless maybe they field an Arazu/Lachesis that manages to scram me before I notice it. The Cynabal is something of an anomaly, but I'll assume you'd like to restrict the conversation to the Vagabond. Yeah, the Vagabond's great - a drone bay and room for a neut. But... the thing its best at isn't damage but running away. But hey, I'm glad you like flying Minmatar - it took a lot of work to make them not useless. Quote: That's the good thing about being multi-raced, that I gladly can field these ships. :P Yeah, I really like being able to fly almost anything subcap with good skills too. Really opens your options up! Oddly enough, I tend to fly Amarr. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.22 04:17:00 - [152] Originally by: Demolishar Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/06/2010 16:44:39 Quote: Minmatar ships have just as much tank as anything else you shove a 1600mm plate on Sure, you can also shove a 50mm plate on a Ferrari, it'll be like a tank. Nevermind it won't do its supposed unique function of being fast and agile. And then? You put a plate ofc you have to forget damage mods and then you get what? A low damage, average tank, not-agile anymore piece of trash? The 1600mm plated rupture is not considered best in it's class at all, is it? For doing 450 dps, with 35,000 ehp, and full tackle, and neuts, and reasonably good speed... Oh, and I forgot that just because the plated Hurricane out-damages, out-tanks, and out-utilities (you know what I mean) it's nearest equivalent ship - the plated Harbinger, that makes it a low damage, average tank, piece of trash Minmatar isn't just the Vagabond, you know... Reasonably good speed with webs that have to be in range of the other guys webs to use? Brilliant. This is clearly a signature.
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.22 05:32:00 - [153] Edited by: 1Ekrid1 on 22/06/2010 05:34:01 Originally by: 1Ekrid1 Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Watching AT8, I was thinking: Gallente big weaknesses are short falloff and optimal + limited damage types and vulnerable drones. Caldari big weaknesses are missile travel time, and in many cases dps. Amarr big weaknessess are limited damage types. Minmatar has great optimal, falloff, can mix damage types, primarily uses turrets and has good dps. I could say tracking, but it's not a real big issue. What am I missing here? Maybe it's obvious. But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? Their weakness is supposed to be paper thin tanks, with their tanking ability smaller sig and faster speed compared to other races, from frigs vs frigs, to cruiser vs cruiser, to BS vs BS. This scaling broke down because speed got a nerf, and then minmatar were paper thin floating killmails, so they got HP buffed, thus unbalancing them considering how they are so offensively good. Their Optimal and falloff; Optimal is supposed to be the point whre you do the most hits, Optimal + tracking gets you higher hits if the enemy is closer, optimal + falloff gets you more hits as the target gets farther away. They're supposed to have crappy optimal, but great falloff, this is supposed to lead to a lower overall chance of hitting compared to other races, but a slower degradation in hitting ability over 1000's of meters beyond falloff. This also has proven untrue due to the fact that tracking trumps all and they gave outrageous tracking to drones and ACs and Arties, meaning the supposed weaknesses these mechanisms are supposed to have dont actually work due to a flaw in balancing the other stats. now, two people did give agreement to this, so when reading things like "they have crappy tracking and blah blah I dont read stats" I will just point this out. I took these samples: 125mm gatling auto - acc falloff 4000, opt 800, Trk .417 Gatling pulse laser - acc falloff 500, opt 4000, Trk .308125 250mm artillery can - acc falloff 8750, opt 8050, Trk .0825 Dual Light beam las - acc falloff 3000, opt 8750, Trk .13 200mm automa cannon - acc falloff 4800, opt 1000, Trk .315 Medium pulse laser - acc falloff 500, opt 4000, Trk .308125 Looking at all these, it is surmized that ACs have better tracking than lasers, but artillery has worse superficially, but on a tracking/meter-range basis the arties are penalized less than the laser beams whi. I made sure Im comparing the weapons in the same class here, such as gatling to gatling, and largest long range to largest long range. what this shows is that where tracking is worse, artillery, they have far superioer rrange because of the falloff. Remember that at falloff, you are that distance from Optimal, and hit for 50% of the time, or for 50% reduced damage over time, however you want to see it. You can go double your falloff from optimal before your hit percentage drops to zero. How does this affect the guns? Tracking. If you have low tracking and very long range, you hit less as ships move faster. Otherwise if you have high tracking at long range, you continue to hit as well. that means ACs have huge advantage over pulse lasers. Their total range is farther than lasers, and their ability to track and hit out at those ranges is farther. so lower tracking and a steep decline in hitting percentage from falloff work together to help hit less and less hard, whereas a low degrade from optimal and high tracking work together to help hit more often and for more damage out at those "excess" ranges. and still, the artillery has greater amount of tracking per meter given to it compared to laser beams, on a .01 tracking per so-many-meters-out-you-can-hit basis. in summation, they're capless, can change damage type, have greater range, have less drastic loss of damage over excess range, and have better tracking for their ranges. thats why everyone uses them for solo pvp. that and being faster ships with a slot layout that makes them able to do anything There's 1, repeat 1, frigate in the T1 lineup designed to be a suicide tackler. the rest are for COMBAT. so don't tell me to tackle when I'm in a combat T1 frig. OR tell CCP to fix their mess.
StainLessStealRat Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.06.22 05:51:00 - [154] Poor Tanks Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels. Zymurgist
Pr1ncess Alia	Posted - 2010.06.22 06:39:00 - [155] Originally by: 1Ekrid1 You know (i use that word loosely) a lot for being 8 days old. -- A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.
Nooma K'Larr Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.22 07:53:00 - [156] Originally by: Tsukiko Ishida When flown too close to the sun, the duct tape begins to fall off. I've noticed that. -------------------------------------- If you don't like my posts, then why waste your time commenting in them? --------------------------------------
Mfume Apocal	Posted - 2010.06.22 08:45:00 - [157] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin But what do you think is minmatar's big weakness(es)? WD40
Killclone	Posted - 2010.06.22 09:41:00 - [158] can you stop making minmatar the FOTM
000Hunter000 Gallente Industrial Exploits Massive Intergalactic Love Klub	Posted - 2010.06.22 11:21:00 - [159] The anwser is ductape offcourse. Their ships come apart just when u run out of it. ________________________________________________
Cpt Branko Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2010.06.22 11:31:00 - [160] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 22/06/2010 11:36:34 Minmatar are simply the best for small gang/solo stuff, and some of their ships are extremely competitive for gangs as well. Edited by: Cpt Branko on 22/06/2010 11:31:40 Originally by: Demolishar No, I said Minmatar have a monopoly in GOOD kiting ships. The Curse is a passable kiter, but far from good. But since I can't fly Minmatar, and I don't like training FOTM... Ha ha. Actually... the Curse is definitely better then a Vagabond in that respect. It doesn't take that much speed to kite someone who has zero capacitor to fire up MWD. Or maybe you fit 0 neutralizers on your curse and all HMLs and rest salvagers? If you wanted to whine about something, you definitely should not be whining about the Curse. Originally by: Liang Nuren Gallente will still (today) stand up and **** any Minnie ship that wanders too close Vs shield buffer fits, yes, vs plated Minmatar fits... no. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

Joe Starbreaker M. Corp	Posted - 2010.06.22 16:31:00 - [161] IMHO the strengths of Minmatar are well known. The purpose of their design is to control the battlefield, using speed and bonused webs, so they engage at whatever range is worse for their enemy. (Big falloff range means that the minmatar ships themselves can be effective at a variety of ranges, whatever's worse for the enemy.) You beat a Minmatar ship by taking away his ability to control the battlefield -- i.e., tackling him and holding him down where he doesn't want to be, then laying on the DPS. So yes, usually the way to beat a Minmatar ship is to bring another Minmatar ship with a better pilot, plus lots of DPS/ewar to kill him once tackled. ... Join M. Corp, see the Galaxy
Syn Callibri Minmatar Blacklight Incorporated	Posted - 2010.06.22 17:13:00 - [162] ...bubblegum and duct tape. (The views expressed may not be those of Blacklight Inc.)
1Ekrid1	Posted - 2010.06.22 22:11:00 - [163] Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia Originally by: 1Ekrid1 You know (i use that word loosely) a lot for being 8 days old. you seem to mistake being able to right click modules with "knowledge". Im thinking you are impressed that I know how to fin d module info? your picture, that is you? A real paper bagger.. There's 1, repeat 1, frigate in the T1 lineup designed to be a suicide tackler. the rest are for COMBAT. so don't tell me to tackle when I'm in a combat T1 frig. OR tell CCP to fix their mess.
Balsak Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot	Posted - 2010.06.22 22:24:00 - [164] Originally by: 1Ekrid1 you seem to mistake being able to right click modules with "knowledge". Im thinking you are impressed that I know how to fin d module info? your picture, that is you? A real paper bagger.. You seem to mistake being able to right click and read a modules info with knowing how it all works in practice rather than theory.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.06.22 23:57:00 - [165] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker You beat a Minmatar ship by taking away his ability to control the battlefield -- i.e., nerfing webs and speed mods and implants and still lolCaldari pilots complain Fixed...somewhat tongue in cheek


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