Granted there are not that many, but more and more players are breaking into that realm of what it cost to keep your clone up to date with the skill points you have.

Yes I know there will be players who chime in with sage words like:
"With that many skill points you should be rolling in katrillions of iskies!!!!"
or
"If you are losing your pod you are doing it wrong!!!!... wait your in null/wormholes?...what do you mean bubbles???"
or my personal favorite
"It is mechanics like those that make sure this game remains HARD CORE and L33TZOR compared to other games, why you dying anyways? BRING FRIENDS and blob more!"

My questions are:
1) Does this mechanic encourage players to go pew pew more or become more reluctant to engage in combat?
2) If clone upgrade costs were removed completely, what are your solid predictions on how and what things would change.

Granted there are not that many, but more and more players are breaking into that realm of what it cost to keep your clone up to date with the skill points you have.

Yes I know there will be players who chime in with sage words like:
"With that many skill points you should be rolling in katrillions of iskies!!!!"
or
"If you are losing your pod you are doing it wrong!!!!... wait you're in null/wormholes?...what do you mean bubbles???"
or my personal favorite
"It is mechanics like those that make sure this game remains HARD CORE and L33TZOR compared to other games, why you dying anyways? BRING FRIENDS and blob more!"

My questions are:
1) Does this mechanic encourage players to go pew pew more or become more reluctant to engage in combat?
2) If clone upgrade costs were removed completely, what are your solid predictions on how and what things would change.

My questions are:
1) Does this mechanic encourage players to go pew pew more or become more reluctant to engage in combat?
2) If clone upgrade costs were removed completely, what are your solid predictions on how and what things would change.

I'm no fan of making things easy or cost free but CCP has to realise that the game has been out for 9 years now and that older players would also love clowning around in rifters for the fun of it. These high clone costs effectively forces them into expensive ships, blobs and risk free pvp.

Granted there are not that many, but more and more players are breaking into that realm of what it cost to keep your clone up to date with the skill points you have.

Yes I know there will be players who chime in with sage words like:
"With that many skill points you should be rolling in katrillions of iskies!!!!"
or
"If you are losing your pod you are doing it wrong!!!!... wait you're in null/wormholes?...what do you mean bubbles???"
or my personal favorite
"It is mechanics like those that make sure this game remains HARD CORE and L33TZOR compared to other games, why you dying anyways? BRING FRIENDS and blob more!"

My questions are:
1) Does this mechanic encourage players to go pew pew more or become more reluctant to engage in combat?
2) If clone upgrade costs were removed completely, what are your solid predictions on how and what things would change.

2. Would remove the risk of pew pew. If i wanted no risk gameplay id go play WoW

1) Does this mechanic encourage players to go pew pew more or become more reluctant to engage in combat?
2) If clone upgrade costs were removed completely, what are your solid predictions on how and what things would change.
3) This question only CCP can really answer or unless the exact statistics have been released before. Is there more ISK removed from clone upgrade costs or more ISK added from ship insurance?

EDIT: Added question #3, but perhaps someone could help me word that better if they know what I am talking about.

Specialize with alts. one for capital, the other for fast pvp, another for market, another for building/invention, another for mining, another for missioning/ratting/plexing, etc......

I'm just face palming left and right over the "train an alt" posts. Really??

The 45m ISK for the clone is nothing compared to the implants that are lost at the same time.

Well if clones are such an ISK sink, maybe it's time to remove insurance to remove a fountain.

Actions should ALWAYS have consequences. It's what seperates EVE from most other MMORPGs out there.

Instead of lowering the price of clones and removing a useful ISK sink and system to balance risk between new and old players, it might be a better compromise to allow older players to drop skills they no longer find useful or enjoyable. This would both lower the cost of future clones, and narrow the gap with noobs trying to interact with vets in meaningful ways.

In a sandbox your character is the sum of the choices you make, you can have both ice cream AND cake if you want it, but you'll be stuffed if you eat it all. Want to be more nimble? Change your gluttonous ways.

/facepalm

Granted there are not that many, but more and more players are breaking into that realm of what it cost to keep your clone up to date with the skill points you have.

Yes I know there will be players who chime in with sage words like:
"With that many skill points you should be rolling in katrillions of iskies!!!!"
or
"If you are losing your pod you are doing it wrong!!!!... wait you're in null/wormholes?...what do you mean bubbles???"
or my personal favorite
"It is mechanics like those that make sure this game remains HARD CORE and L33TZOR compared to other games, why you dying anyways? BRING FRIENDS and blob more!"

My questions are:
1) Does this mechanic encourage players to go pew pew more or become more reluctant to engage in combat?
2) If clone upgrade costs were removed completely, what are your solid predictions on how and what things would change.
3) This question only CCP can really answer or unless the exact statistics have been released before. Is there more ISK removed from clone upgrade costs or more ISK added from ship insurance?

EDIT: Added question #3, but perhaps someone could help me word that better if they know what I am talking about.

Come to that why shouldn't we just get free ships? Do you think having to pay for ships discourages people from PvPing?

Actions should ALWAYS have consequences.

removing a useful ISK sink

It's not fair that I have to pay more for a better ship when newbs in rifters are running around pvping for so cheap.

Thanks for reading and hope you enjoyed it.

Go play on the test server if you want free PvP. I will never be for reduced clone costs unless someone comes up with an idea for another ISK sink to balance things out.

As others have suggested ITT, I would support a significant reduction in clone costs if insurance were removed or significantly altered.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Implants, ships and modules can easily be adapted to the player's budget, while the clone cost just goes up.

Are you genuinely trying to tell me the 45M ISK is a serious amount of ISK for a 150MP SP character? Serious enough to deter PvP?

I call shennanigans

(I've diverted my skill training to alts and am lurking just under the 92.5M mark)

Are you genuinely trying to tell me the 45M ISK is a serious amount of ISK for a 150MP SP character? Serious enough to deter PvP?

I call shennanigans

So it's not that you can't afford it. You just don't want to





Yeah sorry bro, no sympathy here. Especially not over such a petty sum. If top end clones cost half a bill or something then yeah, but the reality is that 45 mill should be a trivial sum. If it isn't, you can stop training before your clone cost gets high (I've diverted my skill training to alts and am lurking just under the 92.5M mark)

If you're still training, you probably have at least a rack of +4s, and maybe some hardwires - these will cost at least as much as you clone and most likely a fair bit more.

If I'm going to pay more for a clone as I get older, it better be because it has bigger... erm... biceps than my old clone.

And what's stopping you from flying a rifter too? Does your high SP mandate you fly something expensive?

Another thought, due to my theoretically higher SP, if I did fly a rifter I would gain more benefit from it than someone with fewer sp. Again justifying a higher clone cost.

Pretty much, yeah, on the not wanting to part.

I still go out in cheapy ships for fun (and very soon will be doing so much more often), and I don't really let ISK or skill point loss determine whether I not I do something, however it is (for lack of a better word) annoying. For those players that have little in the way of an income stream (unwise though that may be) I have little doubt that it plays a large part in their decisions.

I'd love to see small gang combat in the about to be upgraded T1 frigates and cruisers become much, much more common even with the bitter vet crowd. It's just fun.

I feel that doing a few small things to encourage that outweight the other metric of the part clone costs plays in the risk vs. reward equation. That and I tend to invariably support any move that places players more in control, such as the ability to create our own clones would do.

I absolutely see the point you are driving at though. It would have to be carefully considered so as not to take a wrong step towards removing consequences and risk.

If I didn't know any better I'd say it sounds like you don't know how skills work in this game.

I'm glad you know better then.

Explain to me how I don't understand how skills work in this game.

What if I have all that SP in something completely unrelated to Rifters?

Why would you be flying a Rifter?
Are you gaining absolutely no benefit any other time from having SP in whatever it is you have SP in???

Rifters can make use of:

Electronics
- Electronics
- Propulsion Jamming
- Signature Analysis

Engineering
- Energy Management
- Energy Systems Operation
- Engineering
- Shield Management
- Shield Operation
- Tactical Shield Manipulation

Gunnery
- Advanced Weapon Upgrades
- Gunnery
- Motion Prediction
- Rapid Firing
- Shrapshooter
- Small Autocannon Specialisation
- Small Projectile Turret
- Surgical Strike
- Trajectory Analysis
- Weapon Upgrades

Mechanic
- Hull Upgrades
- Jury Rigging
- Mechanic
- Projectile Weapon Rigging
- Repair Systems

Missile Launcher Operation
- Missile Bombardment
- Missile Launcher Operation
- Missile Projection
- Rapid Launch
- Rocket Specialisation
- Target Navigation Prediction
- Warhead Upgrades

Navigation
- Acceleration Control
- Afterburner
- Evasive Manouvering
- Fuel Conservation
- Navigation
- Warp Drive Operation

Science
- Thermodynamics

Spaceship Command
- Minmatar Frigate
- Spaceship Command

Many of these skills are prerequisite for bigger ships & weapon systems as well. Most of this is Basic pvp skills all pvper will use. In fact after these basics, there is little left needed to train for but bigger guns and ship lines for pvp. Yet just about any other skill other than these wont be counted to how badass you are.
PI, social NPC skills, trade, drones, mining, science, salvage, hacking, any other ship, larger weapons, corporation, logistics or other mods you would never use on it.
SP don't apply if the modules don't use them. There is a lot of possible SP that will never be used In any actual ship.

Do you not benefit from them at some point in time???

In other words, why should the price of clones be reduced/removed for high SP characters?? Are they not benefiting or at least able to benefit from having those skill points??? Does that not justify them having to pay more for clones???

At some point in time. Yes. Unless you happen to never do PI again, or never Mine again. or never scan down and do hack sites again, never trade again. Yet you now have the skills anyway so it leaves the possibility no matter what.
Yet In what benefit does it serve the player base as a whole to justify increased clone costs because they only existed longer, not necessarily physically played as many hours. Despite all that SP, more specialized younger player could surpass them in any field if the older player never choose to completely max out a previous field.
But the older player has more "points".
More "points" for what exactly? Just existing longer shouldn't incur penalties. The losses should be in what benefit you are reaping from the skills. A battleship requires more skills than a frigate. A battleship costs a lot more than a frigate when lost. That is the loss properly attributed to having more skill points.

Isn't the potential to use the SP you have to benefit from worth something?? Just because you choose not to use them doesn't make them worthless does it??

Should we get rid of clone costs?? Reduce them? Make it a flat rate regardless of SP. How much should a clone cost??

I still want to know what kind of isk sink we're talking about here. According to Dotlan, there were 156,814 podkills in June. For grade omicron clones with 42.2 million SPs kept, the cost of all those pods would be 737 billion isk. Seems like a lot, but when you consider that it amounts to just over a billion isk per hour, that's the equivalent of maybe 20 L4 mission runners in highsec. A single agent probably pays more in a month than is consumed by pod replacement. it is a tiny drop in the bucket that is Eve's economy.

/facepalm

Older players already spent the time and hard cash supporting the game to reach the event horizon. May sound a bit elitist, yet requiring more effort to even enjoy the more mundane activities or lower ship lines seems wrong play wise.
The whole clone process needs a total revamp to a better risk/reward situation. I already posted an idea on the last page of making clone grades dependent on what lvl of implants you want to use. It is a awesome idea? Meh, but there are numerous ways the current system can be improved.

I understand that you may be an old fart(in game)and your clones cost a "lot" and all you want to do is go have fun in cheap ships.

I also understand that maybe you don't have an interest in any isk making parts of the game (I'm with you there) because they bore you to no end.

I don't understand why anyone would think that since they don't like to generate isk and their clones are expensive due to mass amounts of SP, the price of those clones should be reduced.

If we do that, why not just remove clones altogether? It would solve the problem wouldn't it?

I don't think you understood my point, and I probably didn't explain it very well.

I'm not so much in the "Make clones cheaper" camp, and I'm pretty financially solvent in game.

I'm more in the "Make clones a player driven industry" camp. Among other advantages over the current system, yes, it might mean that if a player devotes the time to learning how to manufacture his/her own high end clones the price might drop a bit. I don't view that as a bad thing as long as it's handled properly. If the players spend time learning the skills and plan for it, I don't see much of an issue if they end up spending less on their clones, and I see several advantages that I listed above.

I am NOT in favor of arbitrarily making them cheaper "just because", or taking any steps that might put the "risk vs reward" ratio out of whack.

I just believe that more game mechanics in the hands of the players, and more incentives for older players to fly a wider variety of ships (basic ones that are rarely flown now) are both worthy goals IF it can be achieved without screwing things up.

If you can afford to pvp you can afford a clone.

So wait, you're down to lose hundreds of millions worth of ship, but 45mil of clone is where you draw the line?
"**** this, i'm posting in general forums!"

Granted there are not that many, but more and more players are breaking into that realm of what it cost to keep your clone up to date with the skill points you have.

Yes I know there will be players who chime in with sage words like:
"With that many skill points you should be rolling in katrillions of iskies!!!!"
or
"If you are losing your pod you are doing it wrong!!!!... wait you're in null/wormholes?...what do you mean bubbles???"
or my personal favorite
"It is mechanics like those that make sure this game remains HARD CORE and L33TZOR compared to other games, why you dying anyways? BRING FRIENDS and blob more!"

My questions are:
1) Does this mechanic encourage players to go pew pew more or become more reluctant to engage in combat?
2) If clone upgrade costs were removed completely, what are your solid predictions on how and what things would change.
3) This question only CCP can really answer or unless the exact statistics have been released before. Is there more ISK removed from clone upgrade costs or more ISK added from ship insurance?

EDIT: Added question #3, but perhaps someone could help me word that better if they know what I am talking about.

yea, eve is too fucking hard, make it easier by all means. :sigh:

So it's not that you can't afford it. You just don't want to





Yeah sorry bro, no sympathy here. Especially not over such a petty sum. If top end clones cost half a bill or something then yeah, but the reality is that 45 mill should be a trivial sum. If it isn't, you can stop training before your clone cost gets high (I've diverted my skill training to alts and am lurking just under the 92.5M mark)

If you're still training, you probably have at least a rack of +4s, and maybe some hardwires - these will cost at least as much as you clone and most likely a fair bit more.

My clones are only 13 mil and it's not a trivial sum to my wallet. It may not prevent me from PVPing that combined with 40+ mil in implants does affect how I play and the risks I take and I'm not a particularly risk averse player.

I had honestly expected a more rational position from you. As I stated up thread the idea that these mechanics serve any purpose other than to discourage risk taking is idiotic. All they do is discourage people from playing and encourage blobbing and ganking. If you've ever been pissed about getting blobbed you have no business supporting either of these stupid mechanics.

People are too damned risk averse in this game, Hell it's the source of most of the bitter vet tears, "OMG, why won't those carebears won't fly under my guns and give me easy kills."

Gee maybe just maybe stupid outdated poorly thought out mechanics that discourage playing the game might have something to do with it.

Personally I'd far rather that vet with the 45 million isk clone spend that isk on 10 fitted rifters that could actually generate some game play than in the service of some silly e-bushido "people must risk **** for my game to have meaning" bullshit.

If an isk sink is so damned important just bump the market transaction fees a fraction of % it would have a far greater affect on the isk supply than what people spend keeping their docked clones up to date.

Let's say 15 million flat fee to replace a clone with 50 million SP or higher. In the short term, it isn't much of a *sigh* isk sink, but over a longer time frame, it would actually pull more money out of the game. People have a tendency to drop smaller amounts of money without as much reservation than a higher amount. In fact, it's become a whole market model in gaming IRL (micro-transactions). Thus, you would probably see an increase in pew if people felt that they weren't spending as much isk over a longer period of time, even if they were actually spending more in reality.

I like it. After a certain point it makes the choice to not train skills a reasonable one. Do you want a character that can fly all four races, subcaps, caps, do industry, mine, explore, slice, dice, and make sandwiches? Sure, but your pod is going to cost you. Do you want a cheaper clone? Alright, pick the skills you want. It's not like it's too restrictive - even a clone the price of a Rifter can store enough SP to fly pretty much all subcaps in the game.

What is even more ironic is on another forum (I might be mistaken due to my Google Fu hating me) how he did not want to train anymore due to the clone upgrade cost being too high for the next tier.

So I take your 'no sympathy for 6 year vet player who can't affort clone upgrade costs...' and toss that pie right back in your face Malcanis.

One thing I realized is that high clone costs go against EVE's sandbox philosophy.

The sandbox philosophy is about freedom to do what you want and be who you want in the game. The rising clone costs push you towards avoiding to fly small ships and avoiding spontaneous high risk PvP. Ships, modules, implants can be chosen according to the pilot's budget and inclinations, whereas the clone cost only rises.

Some might say, but it makes sense, it's been this way since forever therefore it must be working as intended. To this I respond: nonsense, the game is full of outdated little things put in place when EVE was a very different game. Once upon a time, losing ships wasn't a big deal because tech 2 didn't exist and insurance returned the full hull cost (or even more). Yes depending on the market, it was profitable to buy ships and self-destruct them. This is why clone costs were set high, to add real loss and thus risk to PvP. In today's EVE, from a game mechanics point of view, they do not need to be high because of tech 2, module costs often being higer than hull cost, reduced insurance, etc.

By the same argument, all ship should be the same price as well, since apparently it "goes against the sandbox philosophy" for tools of greater utility to be more expensive than those of lesser. Why should I be disincentivised from flying officer-fit machariels instead of T1-fitted rifters? My freedom is being infringed!

One can only cringe at this terrible argument. Me thinks you're just throwing buzzwords around without understanding what's being said.

There is a choice when it comes to ships, modules, implants, etc which is in line with the sandbox philosophy. There is no choice in clones (the only choice being not to develop the character further, which is so stupid that nothing needs to be said about it).

You have 3 character slots; you are offered a real choice, and one that plenty of people utilise.

I don't think hiding the problem in psychological penumbra is the way to go about fixing this problem.

The ISK needs to be spent on ships, ammo, and mods, not silly things like a bigger brain.

Just a quick idea off the top of my head...

Broker's Cloning

Description: After years of extensive study, (NPC scientific corp here) has discovered the secret behind the elusive and infamous individual known as the Broker with his ability to have numerous copies of himself simultaneous and independent of themselves. Whereas further studies are required to refine this ability, prototype clones have been designed with limited success. One major limitation has been the rapid decay rate of these simulacrums, much less the ability to allow them to be augmented in any fashion.

**snipped**

Thanks for reading and hope you enjoyed it.

The Clones are too expensive! The Clones are too cheap! Either they are too expensive because they are a great ISK sink or they are too cheap because they aren't enough of an ISK sink. It can't be both. If vets are complaining about running L4 missions for an hour to pay for their PVP habbits, I wonder how many hours noobs have to grind L3 missions for to replace the T1 battleships they lost in PVP.

You have 3 character slots; you are offered a real choice, and one that plenty of people utilise.

This thread is bananas. B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

You know, I almost always switch to a "combat clone" before I go for PvP roams. I generally use only +3% or even +1% hardwirings and +2 implants on it. It's kind of disappointing that my clone costs are bigger than the cost of the implants.
Like I've said in other threads before, I'd probably be more active if I didn't have to worry about losing ISK the equivalent of ten fully t2 fitted rifters for example if I got podded.
IMHO all the clone prices should be slashed at least around 90%. I firmly believe that would encourage solo PVP and PVP in general more than any of the other commonly tossed around ideas on the forums (remove local, force hiseccers to mine / PVE in lowsec and other "great" ideas).



Stopping developing my main character is not a choice. Well okay, it is, but it is a mind bogglingly idiotic one and I can't believe you're actually serious. Are you?

I agree that PVP cost especially since February has become a real issue. 70-80% more expensive hulls and 20% or so less PVE income makes PVP kinda double the price now definitely not a newb friendly situation nor it makes older players life easier.

Yes, but you guys have to understand that there are costs in building a new clone.

Biomass, expensive machinery, intricate bioengineering, who pays for that?

If you can't afford it perhaps you shouldn't be skilling up.

Of course it's a choice. .....

There's nothing holy about your skillpoint total. SP are just tools, and adding on more tools just for the sake of saying you have the biggest collection, and then complaining that they weigh you down isn't rational.

Yes, but you guys have to understand that there are costs in building a new clone.

Biomass, expensive machinery, intricate bioengineering, who pays for that?

If you can't afford it perhaps you shouldn't be skilling up.

Just for fun, having all of those skills at five, how much would a clone cost???

Malcanis - How much time are you having to spend on retraining core skills on your new alts? I must say, I am tempted to petition CCP to see if your account was hacked. The arguments you have been trying to formulate in this thread have been absolutely terrible and very unlike you.

Once again. The risk pilots take should be with the ship and such things. NOT how long they have been playing the game.

Implants are voluntary purchases that give distinct tangible benefits, your clone cost is somewhat out of your control unless you wish to stop progressing in the game... and frankly it makes little sense.

Why, exactly, should a clone with more skills learned cost more? Is it more expensive to grow one with a bigger brain?

Yes, I'm being a bit silly with the question but it really does make no sense what so ever.

There are better ways to do this that also promote using inexpensive, riskier ships in combat... and involve player industry and the economy.

INDIVIDUAL clones are expensive. At 40 million isk, clone costs can be a barrier to high-risk PVP. "just for fun" roams where you expect to eventually die go from pocket change to costing an hour's worth of PVE. When CCP continues to indicate they want to encourage more PVP, clone costs are doing the opposite.

Can't afford to lose your pod? Then don't undock.

Like this idea a lot.

Love the addition of a PI build for these thats wicked and well done imo.

I do not like the copy and paste of the skills. Id suggest something more on the lines of you save, randomly, up to the amount of the level you have trained. Level 0 gives you 25mil as a base, though it wont actually work until you have L1 trained, which would net you 50mil sp, L2 75mil, L3 100, L4 125 and L5 150. Then have an advanced level thatll do 50mil sp per level. Thatd pretty much cover everyone currently in Eve.

The reason I dont like the copy and paste is its a long winded work around thats annoying as people WILL forget about skills and reqs. But the snapshot of skill training at the time and no active training on that clone is a nice touch, though Id say that the original clone should stay training with its attributes and whatever in place. Ironically this will encourage using these while having a +5 implant set for training sitting in a station somewhere.

Issues I have. Using a medical facility or more specifically a clone vat bay where would the original clone stay? You cannot have more than one clone in any station at once, though you can have an active clone and a jump clone there, but storing 2 clones needs work there. In a clone vat bay there is a set number of clones available as well. Do these use up the clone vat bay clone amounts? Also if the ship gets blown up with these clones in them if stored are they destroyed? Just some questions and issues to address.

Clone death. If they are destroyed before the 48 hour expiration period and one waits out the timer how long until one can use another clone of this sort again? If its immediate or delayed again by another timer like the current JC timers? Can a person pod themselves so as to get out of a clone early before the 48 hour expiration timer? This imo is one of the easiest ways to abuse the system. If its all immediate and u can use more than one itd be an easy way to go around JC timers for short periods. Not a huge issue but still something to look at. As if they are installed in dif areas of Eve one can simply reship the clones around different areas.

What immediate would allow is the ability to reship clones just as one reships for quit and painless PvP. Depending on installation I can see it being used to allow force projection of players to certain areas, friendly stations, clone vat bay equipped ships, who would then reship into available fleet fit ships and go from there on short ops. Again force projection is a real problem and though this would open up more PvP combat in a lot of ways by circumventing the current JC timers theres those issues to look into as well.

I think both the newbie and the miner would gladly trade places with the PVP veteran when it comes down to the ease with which their assets (clones, ships, modules) are replaced.

There are plenty of games you can engage in PVP action in in which getting killed doesn't mean any downtime whatsoever. Why not go and play those or petition CCP to add a quick death match option with simulated ships, simulated modules, simulated clones and no ISK penalty for losing any of it. You'll just have to accept it won't have any consequences on the rest of EVE either.

You know if it's too expensive you could, well, just not have a clone, bite the bullet, and re-do a level 5 skill once in a while. Of course this won't work if you're getting popped every day... but apparently you're poor.

Can't afford to lose your pod? Then don't undock.

Maybe an option to forget skills?

Havnt thought much about it so dunno what the consequences would be.

Personally i think the way it is now works. As previously stated, good ISK sink and we definitely need more ISK sinks in this game.

That's exactly what people are doing which is the problem. They either don't undock and there for don't PVP or they only engage when they are at no actual risk of loss as in in large blobs or severely uneven ganks.

The idea is to get people to undock and don't give me that "why don't we just make ships free too" it's not the same thing, because different ships do actually offer different capabilities depending on what you spend on them and hell if you really want you can use a free ship (hello newb ship) so it's not comparable.

EvE 101 says: Don't fly what you can not afford to lose.

There is however also a counterargument, lowering clone costs would significantly increase power projection via death clone jumping.

There is however also a counterargument, lowering clone costs would significantly increase power projection via death clone jumping.

- More PvP happening
-Thus more stuff blowing up
-Thus the need to replace said blow up stuff
-Thus more market transactions
-Thus more sales tax (hello ISK sink)

-Also higher skill point players opting to slide behind the wheel of a smaller ship
-Thus closing the available skill point game when facing a lower skilled player
-Thus evening the odds a bit more for the newer player
-Thus giving the newer player a chance at success
-Thus making him crave for more PvP and less missioning

-Also due to smaller ships being fielded, it will require other smaller ships to catch them
-Thus less players dry humping some titan bridge
-Thus causing them to get in smaller ships
-Thus having to spread out to deal with other players in smaller ships
-Thus blobbing less

We don't want free ships or free PvP at all. All we want is what you risk to be tied to the ship, implants and fittings you decided to bring into combat, NOT of how long you have been a customer.

people complaining about clone costs is hilarious.
it isnt even remotely an issue till youre upwards of 71mil SP or so and if you havnt figured out how stupidly easy isk is to make by then, well, then i feed bad for you son...

If costs are a problem, then just jump into a Rifter, or a Stabber.

Shouldn't be beyond the means for anybody even after clone costs.

Maybe an option to forget skills?

Havnt thought much about it so dunno what the consequences would be.

Personally i think the way it is now works. As previously stated, good ISK sink and we definitely need more ISK sinks in this game.

He idea of forgetting learned skills has some merit.

Take PI as an example. Most if not all jumped on it, how Many regret wasted time on it.

If you had an option to pay to forget a skill it is a an isk sink for ccp and should you wish to train again you have to purchase again.

Players win by getting rid of unwanted skills, ccp benefits by getting isk out of players. Win win

Meh, I don't have a pod that is worth less than 2 bill isk.... why would I care about 45 mil?

Meh, I don't have a pod that is worth less than 2 bill isk.... why would I care about 45 mil?

Removing clone upgrade costs entirely isn't the way to go. Scaling them down significantly is, however.

The fact is that up untill 120.000.000 SP, a clone merely costs 20 mill ISK. (My personal costs.)
Untill you reach 156.000.000 SP it's merely 30 mill..

You're right.. but the fact still remains right?

Reducing high-end clone costs would likely create a bigger ISK-sink in the form of increased PvP activity from ISK strapped old characters going out and exploding more often.

It's significantly more inviting to go suiciding about and having fun with random ships when you know that getting podded isn't costing you an arm and a leg. For those with low ISK, 20-65m per clone can be quite a lot.

If costs are a problem, then just jump into a Rifter, or a Stabber.

Shouldn't be beyond the means for anybody even after clone costs.

I never even considered the clone costs to be debateable. I don't find them that expensive, and never saw this as a problem.
We don't even have anyone with over 200mill in game yet, Dr. Caymus will reach it in a month or so, but he probably never leaves station anyway ;)

I think this is one of the more important isk sinks in the game. And those are important to fight inflation. Wich in turn keeps the prices low for all of us to enjoy. If you remove isk sinks such as this, there would be more isk in the system leading to higher prices on the markets.

I think

I also don't care as previously mentioned. Duh

Go ahead.

Just throwing this out there... You know you dont HAVE to upgrade your clone. So you dont HAVE to pay that isk.
Also stay away from the super blob fights and you tend to find your pod survives quite a bit.

Reducing high-end clone costs would likely create a bigger ISK-sink in the form of increased PvP activity from ISK strapped old characters going out and exploding more often.

It's significantly more inviting to go suiciding about and having fun with random ships when you know that getting podded isn't costing you an arm and a leg. For those with low ISK, 20-65m per clone can be quite a lot.

Pod loss is the only ISK sink in PvP. Everything else is either ISK-neutral or creates ISK (insurance)

Pod loss is the only ISK sink in PvP. Everything else is either ISK-neutral or creates ISK (insurance)

I think that loosing implants + ship is enough to maintain eve a harsh game.

1. Neither, see your first quoted point as to why.
2. Would remove the risk of pew pew. If i wanted no risk gameplay id go play WoW

I'm not against risk. I'm against pointless risk. What's pointless is that the risk increases as the character gets older for really no reason at all. Not to mention this also only really applies to players who do PVP in nullsec or wormhole space.

Cost of ship: 15m
Cost of mods: 10m
Cost of basic implants: 10m
Cost of some temp boosters: 5m

Cost of playing longer than most other players: 45m

You currently have 400m to spend this weekend
What is better for EvE in worst case scenario.?
Losing 10 ships, 100 modules, X boosters
or adding clone costs
losing 4 ships, 40 modules... etc.

If you are more willing to lose items without the worry of clone cost, the more the player market moves to make up for the lost items, and more items being wiped from the face of the universe. Although they lose an isk sink, its still a healthier game for it. An adjustment in insurance by a few % can easily offset the clone isk sink. I just know there is a graph somewhere showing the total loss of clones in a year and yearly payouts of insurance.

Bloated clone costs punish the minority that love the game enough to keep playing past the standard few years of interest.
Some peoples solution, make a highly specialized alt with little SP... then what about your main? Are you dooming it to eventually be some super cap stuck alliance tool? Not training SP on some character is not an option considering you are paying to train 24/7 and to not make use of training time is silly.

Years of training will let you do missions, mining, combat more efficiently. Yet you can only EVER use so much of your SP at a time, and while your effective skill to time required for a task eventually hits lvl 5 and can no longer be boosted. The clone cost still escalates beyond the earning capabilities of some professions. Just because you play for a long time also does not mean you are a mega ceo with underlings in step underneath you giving you isk. Nor will you be rolling in isk as a weekend warrior,
CCP simply punishes players the longer they stick with it.