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Aglais Caldari	Posted - 2010.07.09 20:16:00 - [1] Why does everyone say they're so horrible at PvP, except the Drake and Falcon? :\ I feel like a ****** trying to bring a Caracal to PvP encounters because of it. Is there some underlying megaweakness to Caldari missileboats, which seem to get less positive attention than the Sacrilege or a HAM Legion? Sorry if this is the wrong board. It loosely has to do with ships though.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.07.09 20:24:00 - [2] Personaly I find the caracal to be the best t1 cruiser in the game.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.07.09 20:26:00 - [3] Originally by: Aglais Why does everyone say they're so horrible at PvP, except the Drake and Falcon? :\ I feel like a ****** trying to bring a Caracal to PvP encounters because of it. Is there some underlying megaweakness to Caldari missileboats, which seem to get less positive attention than the Sacrilege or a HAM Legion? Sorry if this is the wrong board. It loosely has to do with ships though. Caldari are not soo bad at PVP, just not so good at solo PVP They have great small gang support ships but in larger fleets are less effective because of delayed / low damage and the inability to effectively armor tank ( armor being the preferred method of tanking for large fleets ) But small fast roaming shield gangs with Logi support are very dangerous, Caldari ships do fit in that roll nicely Who cares what people say, fly what you want!
Arrador	Posted - 2010.07.09 20:29:00 - [4] Originally by: baltec1 Personaly I find the caracal to be the best t1 cruiser in the game. I love me caracals.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.09 20:32:00 - [5] IIRC 10 Caracals won an alliance tournament once. Caldari isn't bad at PVP - they're "bad" at solo PVP. And even that they're not so bad at. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Arrador	Posted - 2010.07.09 20:43:00 - [6] Originally by: Liang Nuren IIRC 10 Caracals won an alliance tournament once. Caldari isn't bad at PVP - they're "bad" at solo PVP. And even that they're not so bad at. -Liang eh, I guess I really suck at flying caracals then.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.09 20:47:00 - [7] Originally by: Arrador eh, I guess I really suck at flying caracals then. Well, the caracals in question were using massive amounts of damps (pre-nerf) and started at range. 10 gank fit HML Caracals is actually a fair amount of damage. What really ends up kicking people's ass is that they want to fly the Caracal like they would a rail Thorax or something. I mean, yeah... the Caracal could use some more grid (hello CCP, the M in MWD is Mandatory... stop ***ing with me on this!). But it's not a bad ship. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum **** Extraordinaire
Sulia Aren Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.07.09 21:18:00 - [8] Related to OP's topic, i'm looking for a t1 cruiser hull for low sec exploration site clearing (not the scanning bit, that's what my heron is for) that will also be suitable for pvp. Is the Moa or Caracal a better candidate for this? I havent invested much in either missile or gunnery skils (newbie) yet, so i'm not leaning one way or the other.
Stick Cult Unspoken Autonomy.	Posted - 2010.07.09 21:29:00 - [9] Originally by: Liang Nuren IIRC 10 Caracals won an alliance tournament once. Caldari isn't bad at PVP - they're "bad" at solo PVP. And even that they're not so bad at. -Liang If you're talking about that match where BoB lost in the finals and a big upset and all that, it was 10 Thoraxes, not Caracals. Even so, still T1 Cruiser... Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.09 21:34:00 - [10] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/07/2010 21:34:07 Originally by: Stick Cult If you're talking about that match where BoB lost in the finals and a big upset and all that, it was 10 Thoraxes, not Caracals. Even so, still T1 Cruiser... There was definitely a 10 caracal damp blob. CCP Oveur was on the set when it happened and he was visibly upset and strongly hinted at a damp nerf. -Liang Ed: And yes, I remember the 10 Thorax blob too. IIRC they sported 5 Med ECM drones each. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire

Noisrevbus Caldari Breams Gone Wild	Posted - 2010.07.09 22:41:00 - [11] Edited by: Noisrevbus on 09/07/2010 22:47:47 Edited by: Noisrevbus on 09/07/2010 22:44:11 The reason people say that they are bad is because, barring the Drake (and Tengu, but that apply to all T3 and their modular approach), few Caldari ships fit into the most popular gangs within each bracket. You can obviously do out of the box things with Caldari ships and do it well, but they remain unconventional. In the past, the word 'nische' was a popular term to label some Caldari ships - as the game has progressed, that's become more applicable to the entire race. Outside of the Drake, gangs that apply "big shield tanks" are rare, gangs that fight over "extreme ranges" (150+) are rare and so on... The nische also mean that Caldari tend to play best with Caldari. The whole "they are gang ships" doesn't really sit right. Once you have a gang centered around a Caldari ship, other Caldari ships may see the light of day as well. If you have a Drake gang, you might bring a Vulture (and an Onyx). You don't really bring a Vulture to other shield gangs (nano, sniper), as it doesn't really fit in. It's not fast enough to be in a nano gang, and despite tanking bonuses to the gangs' common choice of tank it doesn't fit into a sniper gang either - because it's not fast/agile enough and not a good enough sniper on it's own (despite ship bonuses). It would be interesting to see what kind of gangs the "it's a gang ship" proclaimers see Caldari ships fly in, frequently, barring Drake/BC gangs. When push comes to shove, the Drake is the only Caldari ship that have a wide array of application and can adapt to different surroundings. All the other ships have some place where they might fit in okay (Falcon, Rook - and Blackbird, Caracal). Another observation is that the other classes have certain ships that hybrid well into shield gangs (Curse, Zealot, Ishtar, Lach), but Caldari lack ships that can amass a 40k+ armor tank. As mentioned above, you can of course come up with interesting stuff, such as active tanked CS/T3 gangs with Basilisks or active shield BS, w/e. That remains out of the box though. A gang goes for speed - Caldari don't really fit in. A gang goes for range - Caldari don't really fit in. A gang goes for armor - Caldari don't really fit in. See the pattern? A gang goes for a nische - like a stealthy gang, Caldari do fit in as it's centered around a class of ships (ie., cloaks). Luckily, all races have Bombers, Dictors and other slated ships that take the edge off :).
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.09 23:07:00 - [12] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/07/2010 23:07:55 Originally by: Noisrevbus It would be interesting to see what kind of gangs the "it's a gang ship" proclaimers see Caldari ships fly in, frequently, barring Drake/BC gangs. In PVP (order of frequency): Raven, Drake, Scorpion, Crow, Manticore, Falcon, Harpy, Blackbird, Ferox, Nighthawk, Basilisk, Kestrel, Merlin, Widow, Rook, Eagle, Cerb... -Liang Ed: Raven, Drake, Scorp, and Crow are really heavily used, but the Manticore and Falcon aren't terribly far behind. ;-) -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Sonya Kranz	Posted - 2010.07.09 23:57:00 - [13] People who say caldari are horrible at PvP probably dont really have a clue about how things work, in most cases the pilots skill matters far more then the particular ship he or she is flying, if its not terrible uneven odds. That aside though, caldari ships are defenitely not bad at pvp, just not the best suited for solo pvp, and most notably not in fleets due to the caldari approach. Heavy shield tanking focus means problems with armor tanked fleets (most common for large blobs) Missiles take alot of time to travel to the target, meaning delayed damage, which also makes them all but obsolete in large fleets. The speed of caldari ships leaves to be desired too. On the other side however, the shield tank can be benefit too in other situations, plus they have some of the best EW ships out there (noone will complain about a EW scorp in fleets for example)
Johnny Santos Beginning of the End	Posted - 2010.07.10 00:53:00 - [14] Edited by: Johnny Santos on 10/07/2010 00:53:27 Here is one of the most truthful and simple answers for you: Flavor of the Month. Expanded Answer: No1 knows how to fit a ship and 95% of eve take the setups off the forums that are leaked by those that actually know how to do it. Most peeps dont know how to make a setup, however, are very capable of using a fotm setup. Caldari unique pvp solo setups are hard to come by because they are hard to run and because most people are lazy and go for the easy one which tends to be armor/speed/range ships. Caldari can do those setups, its just someone taking the time to hammer out an effective one.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Quafe Industries	Posted - 2010.07.10 01:20:00 - [15] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 10/07/2010 01:20:13 Originally by: Liang Nuren In PVP (order of frequency): Raven, Drake, Scorpion, Crow, Manticore, Falcon, Harpy, Blackbird, Ferox, Nighthawk, Basilisk, Kestrel, Merlin, Widow, Rook, Eagle, *Cerb...* -Liang Sigh :\ Loss (noun): detriment, disadvantage, or deprivation from failure to keep, have, or get: to bear the loss of a robbery. Spell it right
Kephael Caldari SERENDIPITY INC R-I-P	Posted - 2010.07.10 04:09:00 - [16] Edited by: Kephael on 10/07/2010 04:10:46 Caldari suck in PvP, if you want to be useful in a roaming gang train amarr or minmatar. Falcon is good support, but support is not fun because you don't make things blow up. __________________________________________
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.10 04:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Sigh :\ There's a reason its last you know. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
BiggestT Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.07.10 04:23:00 - [18] People over-estimate the power of being able to solo, imo less htan 1% of pvp'ers would solo rather than fleet up. Caldari ships are great for fleets, people telling you they're bad are simply dissilusioned non-caldari role-players or are people still living in 2006. Their only real issue is a disproportionate use of armour vs. shield in eve, making it hard for fleet logistics e.g. fc's prefering armour only for armour rr etc. Missiles are actually an excellent weapons platform. Hybrid turrets are also pretty fun, though are much harder to use and may (or may not) need tweaking by CCP to improve performance (e.g. less cap use by rails, better tracking/range etc. for blasters) though this is debatable to a degree (they're still pretty effective regardless of any issues). EVE Trivia EVE History
Julian Darklight	Posted - 2010.07.10 05:04:00 - [19] Caldari are FINE PVP ships. in fact i just used one a few minutes ago that took on 5 ships. killed one an put another into 20% structure an soaked up 34k damage before it died. an the only reason i didnt kill their repper ship an win is cause i tryed to run an tunred off all my guns. point is i WAS A F**KIN LONE!!!!! yes, it takes a lot of sp an patience to learn to PVP with caldari but those of u sho say its a "niche" ship are douches. its onl "niche" becasue folks fail to see its value. yes, teh missles take longer to hit theoir targets but u dont ahve trackin or cap to worry bout an if u wnat instant DPS get a caldari gunboat. most of em can use ANY guns system effectively an have a good tank doin it as well as speed. i put here a prperly trained an fit AC Ferox or a blaster Rokh or a blaster/ECM falcon or an AC/missle/tackle Merlin or a blaster/missle Moa or an ECM/blaster Scorpion. in a simple DPS/tackle gang u cant beat caldari. its that simple. O, an for perspective i fly gallente an matar as well so i can say from expierance that caldari is the best race i have flown so far.
BiggestT Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.07.10 05:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Liang Nuren There's a reason its last you know. -Liang Surely the cerb is more popular than the eagle??? The eagle is just downright chunderous. The cerb is actually a great HAC with good dps, sit at 70km+ and hit the secondary..(or a tad closer and hit a large primary) EVE Trivia EVE History

Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.10 05:29:00 - [21] Originally by: BiggestT Surely the cerb is more popular than the eagle??? The eagle is just downright chunderous. The cerb is actually a great HAC with good dps, sit at 70km+ and hit the secondary..(or a tad closer and hit a large primary) When you're dealing with 150-200km, missile travel time begins to suck. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
BiggestT Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.07.10 06:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Liang Nuren When you're dealing with 150-200km, missile travel time begins to suck. -Liang Yeah, but I don't use it to snipe, hell a ferox is better for that; I prefer mid to semi-long range. If you're at say 50-70km, missile flight time isn't a huge issue and you're still far enough away to gtfo if you notice nasty tacklers/nano-hacs heading your way (or you can just melt them if they approach in a straight line). EVE Trivia EVE History
Noisrevbus Caldari Breams Gone Wild	Posted - 2010.07.10 22:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Noisrevbus It would be interesting to see what kind of gangs the "it's a gang ship" proclaimers see Caldari ships fly in, frequently, barring Drake/BC gangs. Originally by: Liang Nuren In PVP (order of frequency): Raven, Drake, Scorpion, Crow, Manticore, Falcon, Harpy, Blackbird, Ferox, Nighthawk, Basilisk, Kestrel, Merlin, Widow, Rook, Eagle, Cerb... Let me requote with emphasis on what i was veering for. I understand if it wasn't entirely clear the first time around. I'm not interested in which ships you find useful, i'm intersted in the type of gangs you commonly see them in. Obviously there's a bit of an agenda behind the question, since i can't bring myself to remember many occassions when you come across gangs with a fair representation of those ships, or more importantly where they have been used effectively. The ships mentioned at first, exempt.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.10 22:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Noisrevbus Let me requote with emphasis on what i was veering for. Standard low sec roaming gangs man. We regularly see Drakes, Scorps, Cerbs, Caracals, Falcons, Rooks, Ravens, Crows, ** tons of Manticores, etc. And honestly if you aren't seeing Massive ing Drake+Basi/Scim Blobs everywhere you turn you have your eyes closed. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire
icecooljon Aliastra	Posted - 2010.07.10 23:20:00 - [25] The myth that Caldari lack in PVP is old and has since been fixed, my alt fly's all other races other than Caldari and honestly I have so much more fun on my main. Yes, we may not have the greatest selection of ships, and missiles do take time to hit their target, but do these small problems mean a whole race is lacking? No. Fit smart, Fly smart and it doesn't matter what ship your in.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Quafe Industries	Posted - 2010.07.10 23:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Liang Nuren There's a reason its last you know. -Liang Doesn't mean I have to be ok with it :( Loss (noun): detriment, disadvantage, or deprivation from failure to keep, have, or get: to bear the loss of a robbery. Spell it right
Myrkala Minmatar Interstellar Empire Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.07.11 00:56:00 - [27] One of the few Caldari ships that aren't really good is the Eagle. I've been looking at it for 2 hours now and I just can't shoe-horn it into any useful role. Except: Bait "Versatile Sniper" Sigh... It really needs something, one more mid, change one optimal bonus for a ROF/DMG bonus. A small dronebay... something. - Originally by: Plumpy McPudding Minmatar? More like Winmatar.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.07.11 01:02:00 - [28] Originally by: Myrkala One of the few Caldari ships that aren't really good is the Eagle. I've been looking at it for 2 hours now and I just can't shoe-horn it into any useful role. Except: Bait "Versatile Sniper" Sigh... It really needs something, one more mid, change one optimal bonus for a ROF/DMG bonus. A small dronebay... something. I'd honestly prefer making those 10% optimal bonuses 15% optimal bonuses. :) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.07.11 01:05:00 - [29] The Eagle is nothing amazing but it's a passable ship. TBH, I think 90% of the "Caldari suck at pvp" stuff is just people mindlessly parroting the years old view that is no longer even remotely accurate. _________________________________ Originally by: Dodgy Past Can't see the Caldari approving of free love though.
Battlecheese	Posted - 2010.07.11 02:35:00 - [30] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington The Eagle is nothing amazing but it's a passable ship. TBH, I think 90% of the "Caldari suck at pvp" stuff is just people mindlessly parroting the years old view that is no longer even remotely accurate. It has never been accurate. It gained traction because people keep showing up to pvp in their mission fit cruise ravens. The biggest problem with caldari pvp, especially railgun pvp is that your fitting skills need to be quite advanced.

Ackbarre Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.11 11:32:00 - [31] Caldari make some good ships for PVP as long as you understand their role. Either as ECM support or missile support. Drakes make great dps boats or more commonly as bait ships. Caracals often get ignored by other fleets same thing with Kestrels. Plus missiles aren't affected by sig radius only by targets speed. And if he's webbed and scrammed you'll get more damage out of missiles anyways.
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2010.07.11 12:57:00 - [32] Originally by: Ackbarre Caldari make some good ships for PVP as long as you understand their role. Either as ECM support or missile support. Drakes make great dps boats or more commonly as bait ships. Caracals often get ignored by other fleets same thing with Kestrels. Plus missiles aren't affected by sig radius only by targets speed. And if he's webbed and scrammed you'll get more damage out of missiles anyways. Missile support? I suppose you use that when the enemy is using AoE tracking disruptors. Being ignored in a fleet is not a good thing. Also Sig radius does affect missile damage. I think you have more things to learn. If someone is webbed and scrammed, you get more damage out of guns too. I see a few big problems with Caldari. Missiles become less effective when distances get longer, and as gangs get bigger. If you are nearly alphaing target, the missile damage does not get there in time. They are not very adaptable. No real armor tanks, in a guardian supported armor tank world is a problem. Not to say that there aren't shield tanking gangs out there, it's just that when the choice is armor tank Caldari have very few ships to choose from. Shield tank gangs also tend to be smaller ships, that perform more hit and run type of warfare, Caldari are slow with very low alpha, and poor DPS. That combination often doesn't fit in that well. The 2 ends of the spectrum for tanking are Amarr and Caldari. At BS level, Amarr out classes everyone, especially Caldari for the first reason noted above. So you are going to cater to the strongest race, and thus Armor tank is preferred tank. The Rokh is not really a bad ship, as it "Can" fit an acceptable armor tank, plus do reasonable damage. However, unlike the Mega, it doesn't get 5 heavy/sentries drones to augment the lowish damage of rails. having fit it the other day though, I do think you can make a pretty nice CR BS out of it though, with nearly 40km effective range, 750DPS and 90k ehp armor tank, which I think is not too shabby. I gotta run, but those some of my opinions on Caldari.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.11 13:02:00 - [33] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Myrkala One of the few Caldari ships that aren't really good is the Eagle. I've been looking at it for 2 hours now and I just can't shoe-horn it into any useful role. Except: Bait "Versatile Sniper" Sigh... It really needs something, one more mid, change one optimal bonus for a ROF/DMG bonus. A small dronebay... something. I'd honestly prefer making those 10% optimal bonuses 15% optimal bonuses. :) -Liang I completely agree... With this change suddenly all the caldari railboats get a huge increase in tracking and ins many cases in damage as well.
BiggestT Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.07.11 18:25:00 - [34] Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Originally by: Liang Nuren I'd honestly prefer making those 10% optimal bonuses 15% optimal bonuses. :) -Liang I completely agree... With this change suddenly all the caldari railboats get a huge increase in tracking and ins many cases in damage as well. The Rokh may be a little OP though, It's kinda perfect atm (you'd get what, ~90-100km antimatter?? 'Tis nice, but a bit much!) EVE Trivia EVE History
siC0 b0b	Posted - 2010.07.11 19:40:00 - [35] Caldari are doing fine, but they're not going to be FOTM in PvP. Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh, they're all great ships for PvP and the optimal range bonus makes the ships perfectly viable inside Warp Scrambler range, if you can load Null, you're in happy town USA. The Merlin is inferior only to the Rifter and in an 1v1 i wouldn't call anything before GF. The problem other Caldari blaster boats have is the fact that their DPS comes from MFS, that means big ROF and thus major capacitor consumption. Usualy without perfect skills you'll run out of capacitor just running your basic modules. Moa's problems would be just major weakness to smaller ships, it only sports 3 light drones and you can't fit a Stasis Webefire on it if you want to be competetive. Can't run a neutralizer too long either because you're starving for capacitor already. In general they're great, however. The Caracal and Drake are great PvP boats, Raven does well with raping BS and bigger targets. A Caracal can kite slower, armor tanked ships because it has really high agility and no range problems, it'll deal easily with anything smaller too, it's quite a safe ship to fly. The damage on a Caracal might seem like low, but it's comparable with Minmatar at point range, it doesn't suffer from falloff or tracking and small missiles are really accurate and end up dealing more damage than HM in most cases (Liang being absolutely wrong with her judgement of this ship here). T2 ships are alright, but nothing special. The only combat ships worth the ISK bringing into regular combat PvP operations are a Harpy or a Manticore. Other than that the support hulls are great too. Let CCP balance Hybrid turrets properly and this race will get even stronger in PvP.
Gecko O'Bac H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2010.07.11 20:47:00 - [36] Originally by: BiggestT Originally by: Gecko O'Bac Originally by: Liang Nuren I'd honestly prefer making those 10% optimal bonuses 15% optimal bonuses. :) -Liang I completely agree... With this change suddenly all the caldari railboats get a huge increase in tracking and ins many cases in damage as well. The Rokh may be a little OP though, It's kinda perfect atm (you'd get what, ~90-100km antimatter?? 'Tis nice, but a bit much!) coughPulsepoccough
Queen Jane Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2010.07.11 21:19:00 - [37] ROFL Armor tanked rohks, moa is a good ship dispite the fact it can't be well fit and is a cap sucking monster, missiles are good support... What the hell EVE do you people play? Caldari ships have tiny niche roles compared to most other ships. As others have already said, they're also terrible in most large armor rep fleets. The drake tends to get a pass because they're halariously durable without a lot of RR and people like to roam in large gangs consisting almost entirely of drakes. So yeah, if we're willing to say the drake makes Caldari PvP passable, i'm willing to let that be open for debate, but don't start up again with the caldari hybrid boats are underrated crap. Perhaps if armor tanking wasn't the end-all of most gangs, perhaps if hybrids (espcially rails) were not so sub-optimal, perhaps if the hybrid boats didn't have underwhelming bonuses... but at the end of the day, all of these things are true, and caldari ships -are- generally less useful. Not omg useless, not worthless, but very definitely far less useful and adaptable than their counterparts.
siC0 b0b	Posted - 2010.07.11 21:55:00 - [38] Edited by: siC0 b0b on 11/07/2010 22:00:54 I can tell what EVE you're playing. It consists of PvPing in RR and hac fleets. Caldari blaster boats are doing fine. Hybrid turrets need rebalancing since a couple of years, but that's a different topic. The ships are shield tanked with good bonuses, you can't underestimate a great buffer tank that recharges itself rapidly. The range bonuses work perfectly if you have Null ammo availible. IMHO too, the Moa isn't perfect, it should be able to launch 5 drones since it's shield tanked and it should be fitting a rack of Ions if you put just one LSE on it. Can't forget about the capacitor problems. But other cruisers have problems too and i think you're expecting a bit too much out of it. But it's not as bad as others claim it is. I'd seriously take Caldari over Gallente or Amarr sub BS. They're nowhere near inferior, you just can't fotm armor rr hac. Just Minmatar are OP currently so they make other races seem like **. So yeah, boost the **ing hybrids, fix cap on caldari ships, tweak the moa and the race's going to be pimp. Caldari really stands out from other races sporting only shield tank and people just can't be bothered to make these ships work. EDIT: exept for dystopia <3 tyraxx
Queen Jane Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2010.07.11 22:09:00 - [39] Edited by: Queen Jane on 11/07/2010 22:09:24 I think you underestimate how bad hybrids are on caldari ships. Feel free to take a well skilled moa up against an arbitrator some time if you think that caldari sub-bs hybrids are nice. Really, it's a terribly designed ship, and to top it all off, it's quite possible that Dali himself designed the hideous looking thing. Move further up and down and it's more of the same. Amarr BS ofc outclass the caldari in a fleet, gallente ships make far better hybrid platforms. And let's not even begin to talk about the god awful tech2 caldari gun ships.
siC0 b0b	Posted - 2010.07.11 22:24:00 - [40] You want to take a Turret ship against an anti-Turret ship, yes i don't think it'll work, however take the traking disruption away and a Moa will outperform it. Caldari don't have big drone bays, but Blasters themselves aren't inferior than on a Gallente hull. I like how the Moa looks, so it's a matter of taste. I do agree that Moa isn't the best designed ship, but i think you're underestimating the buffer on it. I'd take a Moa over, let's say, a Thorax anytime. The two ships, that mess up the Cruiser line and make other Cruisers seem like **** are the Rupture and Vexor, the Vexor actually having a weakness in a small drone capacity. Again, Minmatar are OP in my opinion so they mess up ev'rything.

FlightGlobal	Posted - 2010.07.11 23:37:00 - [41] Edited by: FlightGlobal on 11/07/2010 23:41:11 Originally by: Aglais Why does everyone say they're so horrible at PvP, except the Drake and Falcon? :\ I feel like a **** trying to bring a Caracal to PvP encounters because of it. Is there some underlying megaweakness to Caldari missileboats, which seem to get less positive attention than the Sacrilege or a HAM Legion? Sorry if this is the wrong board. It loosely has to do with ships though. don't worry mate I know how u feel. I've been native caldari for 3 years now. The reasons are a little entrenched now, and IMMO mostly (but not entirly) defunk. 1) caldari were reputedly once the 'best/better' all round/pvp races- but were nerfed a bit by ccp(only what I've been told), I wasnt around to see it. 2) they rely a lot on missiles- in pvp missiles are viruses due to non instant damage (unlike turret slots. 3) apparently their capital pvp ships are not quite as good as other races (I don't know I don't fly caps), but I know from experience that capital caldari ships are more rare than other races) - at least in my alts coalition anyway). 4) shield tanking is considdered to be less effective than armour tanking (I'm not sure if this is true having never flown non caldari). 5) they are apparently fairly slow (particually the bigger ships). 6) thier slot arrangement makes them harder to get a good fit ( ie mid slots are for shields which means u break your tank in solo/small gang pvp by fitting tackle/engineering mods, as armour slots go in low slots, leaving the mids free). BUT** 1) I fly (alts) in a large coalition and I have to say caldari is about evenly represented in fleet ops. Just not nessisarily in capital fleets (but I still see caldari capitals). 2) caldari ARE known to have the best (or one of the best) ewar ships, so if ewar is your thing...... 3) at the end of the day, in eve there is a near total balance to the game. So love it or hate it u will find, especially on t2 hulls therebis not a great deal between races except for the odd specific ship type for a specific role. In the case of caldari we get a great and cheap t1 hull for doin level 1-3/4 missions, that is ok and CHEAP to fly in pvp fleets (the drake) and good t1/t2 ewar cruisers (crow/falcon). They just may not have particually good solo pvp ships. Also caldari logi ships are not bad either (and eveyone loves a loginpilot, especially FC's!) 4) in a large fleet op in a large alliance/coalition FC's ask for 'bs/hac/dics/hics/logi/scouts'- nowhere in there does it say 'but don't fly caldari coz there rubbish'. Big time FC's And big time alliances don't really care what race u fly so long as u turn up in reasonably well fitted ship for the op that is being done they don't care what rave u fly - SO WHY SHOULD U, (or anyone else for that matter)? When all is said and done caldari may not be the best for smaller gang and solo pvp. And if u are going to be doing that u MAY wish to considder training cross race. But if your going for BS or T2 hull fits, most fc's in most fleets will be happy to have u along for the ride. For my part I've flown ceptor, drake, cov op, hac (cerb), hic (onyx), t3 and bs (raven and now starting with rokh's now I've got my rail gun skills) and I've had good fun in them all. I've died from time to time, I've had my share of kills (sometimes more) and I had loads of fun -and I am sure u will too! NB: Its not nessisarily the ship u fly, but rather how u fit and fly it and the role u take on that makes the real difference. Not that one exists, but u could have the 'best' ship in eve but if it's flown badly, poorly fitted or plain outnumbered it will still die.
eleve	Posted - 2010.07.11 23:52:00 - [42] Rook is probably on of the funnies solo ships. You can just attack every bait you want and then leave when the rest of the gang arrives. Or you can go and **** up someones fight just randomly jamming people. And there is always some interceptor pilots who don't realise that the rook pilot is just waiting for them to hit something and get free kill that way :D Rook is also nice in small fleets. Falcon suits almost every fleet. Cerberus is very good in small fleets. In small gangs missile flight time doesn't matter. On the contrary, in small closerange gangs, cerberus can usually aply full dps to the target faster than others. Eagle is only hac capable of shooting over 150km (outside of the gateguns in low sec) Rokh is damn good smartbomb platform. Tengu is just better than all the other t3 ships when it comes to solo flying. With HAMs it can do almost 1000dps in heat and tank that much too.
Queen Jane Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2010.07.12 00:33:00 - [43] You make a good point Global. Most FC's just want a good pilot, and most ships can perform well with a great pilot regardless of what they are, so long as they are fit well. That being said, Falcon/Drake aside, you're usually going to become well aware that equally skilled and fit pilots in other ships are just doing better. Either beating you or out-performing you in your own fleet.
Kesta Sovek Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.07.12 00:42:00 - [44] Originally by: Aglais Why does everyone say they're so horrible at PvP, except the Drake and Falcon? :\ I feel like a ****** trying to bring a Caracal to PvP encounters because of it. Is there some underlying megaweakness to Caldari missileboats, which seem to get less positive attention than the Sacrilege or a HAM Legion? Sorry if this is the wrong board. It loosely has to do with ships though. Caldari are okay at small scale group PvP. They have trouble in large fleets because things die to focused fire before the missiles get there. They have trouble in solo PvP because PvP modules like webbers, scramblers and such take medium slots away from your tank.
FlightGlobal	Posted - 2010.07.12 07:38:00 - [45] That being said, Falcon/Drake aside, you're usually going to become well aware that equally skilled and fit pilots in other ships are just doing better. Either beating you or out-performing you in your own fleet. I have to say, I have never experienced this (doesn't mean it's not true tho)- just that I've never noted/felt like this. Nor have i ever felt 'left out/out of place/left playing catch up' in any fleet op when flying caldari. Maybe the fleets I fly in are too big for it to matter? Although I would like to add another suggestion for the thread owner. Go on any of the large alliance kill boards, look at kills and losses and see if caldari are or aren't well represented. Also look at the ships responsible for the kills, u may also find that caldari are equally present.
Andreya Red Federation	Posted - 2010.07.12 08:33:00 - [46] Originally by: Meeko Atari Caldari are not soo bad at PVP, just not so good at solo PVP This is the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. i hate fighting caldari. unless they are alone. _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
CrimsonLobo Caldari Galaxy Punks	Posted - 2010.07.12 11:47:00 - [47] Edited by: CrimsonLobo on 12/07/2010 11:47:00 To use the old adage: Caldari PvP Solo, Pick two. Aside from that Faildari arent too bad, but imo get carried by the tank of a Drake and EWAR, but its all a preference thing, i dislike Caldari and do not find flying them fun.
M'ktakh	Posted - 2010.07.12 12:52:00 - [48] Reason one: lazy FCs who cant be arsked to pick secondary targets for missile ships (seriously, solution to flight time problem: shoot the secondary target) Reason two: shield RR is inferior (fitting wise) to armour RR. Armour RR is prevalent because armour RR is easy to fit. Also, PVP apparently means 150+ blobs of RR battleships. Yes, Caldari suffer a bit from slow speed and having to trade tank for ewar, but most of the reasons spouted here are a result of bad piloting and/or hardwired dislike, with little to none actual basis.
siC0 b0b	Posted - 2010.07.12 14:00:00 - [49] You guys either never flew Caldari and the only thing you know about this race is from encounter with Falcons and general newbish whine about Drakes, don't know how to fit the ships properly, or you just try to fly these ships like your Ruptures, Megathrons or Hurricanes and you can't find different solutions to your problems. I'm going to tell you from my own experience, that flying a Moa or a Ferox is hard, it won't kill ships E.Z. time like a Rupture or Hurricane, those ships outclass ev'rything. However Blasters on Caldari boats do work and they work better than on Gallente boats, it's what EFT won't show you and you'll actually have to undock sometime and try to solve your problems with practice. Either try to figure this race out or cross train to your FOTM e.z. time Minmatar, but don't whine. This race performs fine for me.
RavenTesio Caldari Liandri Corporation	Posted - 2010.07.12 16:18:00 - [50] The main issue here isn't so much that Caldari ships are particularly bad, although it is painfully obvious that CCP has no love for the Caldari; it's that they're the most difficult ships in the game to properly fit and fly well. I mean there is the obvious exception to that rule being the Drake. As almost any idiot can tank it with fits to lock-down any would be scram/jam tackler. (If you can't then hang your head in shame and slink back to your Hurricane) And what puts far more people off to learn to fly them well is, well it is often a very expensive lesson to keep learning how best to use your boat. Really I mean the big problem here is that Caldari are not great at the Solo fights, but in groups they can be extremely dangerous especially given they are all far more specialised. Sure they don't have the best tanking abilities or raw damage abilities, but they have a commanding position when it comes to E-War, Logistics and Stealth Warfare. If you can lock out, lock down and shutdown an enemies E-War and DPS dealers; you can take any of their remaining damage, while taking out their logistics making it simply a matter of time before you can take out the DPS dealers with nothing they can do about it. I mean just like the Caldari race themselves, it just takes a bit of discipline, skill and patience. Fly smart.

Hannibal Ord Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.07.12 17:36:00 - [51] Originally by: Andreya Originally by: Meeko Atari Caldari are not soo bad at PVP, just not so good at solo PVP This is the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. i hate fighting caldari. unless they are alone. Wins thread to be honest. There isn't much more to be said about it.
Vimple	Posted - 2010.07.13 05:08:00 - [52] Originally by: Noisrevbus Edited by: Noisrevbus on 09/07/2010 22:48:01 A gang goes for speed - Caldari don't really fit in. A gang goes for range - Caldari don't really fit in. A gang goes for armor - Caldari don't really fit in. See the pattern? Hmm I can fit the MWD and nano just like you while tanking oh and my tank doesnt hold back my speed. so there goes the first one. range bonuses to hybrids, missile velocity/fligh time. there is my range while oh look i still get to fit most if not all of my tank. there goes the range one ( i just have to know to shoot secondary if using missile. primary target means caldari dont shoot. if your FC forgets to call secondary well then he fails no the caldari pilots. ) humm gang goes for armor well yah **** our of luck there so i bring the falcon. or plate enam and dcu with all those mid slots now available for tracking disrupts/sensor damps/or other support e-war. sure not optimal choice for the armor gang but that is why all caldari should train for recons.
Xennifer	Posted - 2010.07.13 05:13:00 - [53] Originally by: Vimple all caldari should train for recons. Heh. My FC told me that very thing years ago when I was starting out in pvp. I had a second minmatar account the next week. Don't get me wrong. Ewar is vital, but it's not much fun to get primaried all night and/or spend more time in warp than actually in battle. I still pick up my caldari account regularly for drake blobs though. Halariously fun.
Vimple	Posted - 2010.07.13 06:07:00 - [54] Originally by: Xennifer Originally by: Vimple all caldari should train for recons. Heh. My FC told me that very thing years ago when I was starting out in pvp. I had a second minmatar account the next week. Don't get me wrong. Ewar is vital, but it's not much fun to get primaried all night and/or spend more time in warp than actually in battle. I still pick up my caldari account regularly for drake blobs though. Halariously fun. Not saying it is fun although getting on a pop kill with an ECM jammer is hilarious. ECM is a vital part of fighting on EvEs modern battle field. Oh and for solo PvP the rook can have potential if you have some experiance and good ecm support skill as you will fit maybe 3 jammers and multi freq jammers at that for solo use. that could just be me, though sadly i built mine and havent gotten a chance to use it.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2010.07.14 14:15:00 - [55] Love my Moa's. It's so damn cheap to kit out and a huge laugh running around in one. Sure you won't do mega-dps out of it but the ship'll take one hell of a beating. Never got on with the Caracal personally.


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