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Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.19 11:53:00 - [31] Originally by: Ji Sama Are you perhaps confusing cista2's audit initiative with the audit fund? nope never even heard of cista's before, based my comment entirely on the below comment: "He gets a quote from an auditor, such as yourself, and finds that it will cost him 100-150mil. Given the size of the bond and the state of his own finances, this is too expensive for him so, rather than say he won't have an audit or, alternatively, trying to push the auditor's fee down, he applies to the audit fund to cover part of the cost. The audit fund will then pay the auditor whatever is agreed."
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.19 11:56:00 - [32] Then I do not understand how you can say the last activity was 6 mths ago! But meh, it is not important!
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.19 12:59:00 - [33] http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1271639/page/6 You're actually the last to have posted on it half a year ago ;) Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve Take me to the EVE-Online forum thread View author employment history View author posting habits View only posts by author Posted - 2010.03.01 02:26:00 - [166] - Quote Mails sent out to Phoebe and Estel. The vote regarding Bobby's offer was passed (12.5B @ 4% interest paid in advance.) We still need 7.5B in donations.
Hel O'Ween Men On A Mission	Posted - 2010.08.19 13:05:00 - [34] Originally by: Ramingo http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1271639/page/6 That's the old (initial) thread. Here's the "new" one: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1296000 -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.19 13:07:00 - [35] Edited by: Ji Sama on 19/08/2010 13:10:00 MD Audit Fund Official Thread This is the correct thread, and as you can see, breaker posted in it 14 days ago! EDIT: @Hel O'ween thats also an old discussion thread
Tirnuen Perkone	Posted - 2010.08.19 19:26:00 - [36] Thank you for the audit services Ramingo. Very quick, thorough, and answered all my questions! A+ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [SERVICE] Alliance/ Corporation Creation Service [ACCS] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1140733&page=1
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.08.20 17:26:00 - [37] Edited by: Estel Arador on 20/08/2010 17:26:49 I have a few questions about your investigation reported here. Could you explain a bit about your method in this case and could you elaborate on your findings? I'm particularly interested in the time frame: when did the character sale take place and when did the alleged scams take place? I'm also confused about this part (but perhaps the time frame would clear up much of that confusion): "There have been two individuals/corporations that were scammed by the previous owner for 1 billion isk each, but the new owner indicated that he does not intend to repay them, given that he got scammed himself by doing so, and is free of any obligations." Who scammed who and how? Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.20 17:51:00 - [38] Your "audits" are not acceptable.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.08.20 18:32:00 - [39] Edited by: cosmoray on 20/08/2010 18:32:32 Sorry but what you call an audit of Tirnuen is an utter joke. I did a quick search and see that the character is a known scammer. Secondly the character was "allegedly" sold to a known character flipper - Rae Kharra. Rae Kharra has about 10-15 character sales threads up in forums over last 10-12 days. There is no mention of character sale in the Alliance creation Service Thread (Tirnuen). In fact the character had only be "officially" transferred about 1 hr when you were brought in to perform your audit. In under a day your audit gave the all clear. Were you given the Full API key? Did you check all the characters? Did you search all the characters? Did you download all the wallet transactions? Did you research any wierd entries or wallet transfers? Did you see the transfer of funds that enabled the character sale? Remember the ISK has to go to the character for sale as per forum rules? Sorry but you have come here offering a service and made a nice well written post, and you got nothing but good will because auditing is a thankless task. You then performed some super fast audit on a scammer! Your first audit failed on a massive level. Finally as soon as you find out that the character has a dodgy past or has scammed you walk away. Your name is now attatched to Tirnuen, and if there are still more SCAMS your brief auditing career is over. Sorry to say, but I wouldn't touch an IPO/Bond that you audit.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 03:12:00 - [40] Estel: I don't have Tirnuen's full API anymore but basically there was a sales thread in which the old Tirnuen used his character in RAGE to bid on his own char, but eventually Rae Kharra made a bid/buy-out. According to their sales post they were both online as the timestamp of the 6 billion isk transfer matches that of the confirmation posts. That, coupled with the fact that after the character transfer the dozens of isk transfers to Cynara ceased, in addition to the fact that it aligns with the "cashing in" of reputation, by scamming 2 guys, leads me to believe Tirnuen is in fact now in the hands of a new owner. Of course this could all be an elaborate scheme, but as far as an audit goes all signs indicate it is a new owner. The only way to be 100% sure would be to do a GM check on the IP address of the new owner, but those tools are beyond my reach. Another point that led me to believe so was that he tried to make amends (which is why he contacted me - he wanted to see who he legitimately owed isk to, how much, and to see if I could audit him so he could continue running the previous owner's business). Regarding the scam part, the transactions show that twice did the previous owner pocket 1 bill isk and immediately transfer it to his alt, Cynara, thus scamming them for 2 bill isk total. The new owner of Tirnuen however paid 1 billion isk to someone who claiemd to have been scammed by the previous owner, yet the logs showed no transaction with the person claiming to have been scammed, nor by his alliance. Thus it led me to believe he got scammed himself by that alliance. SetrakDark: Might your opinion have anything to do with the fact that a known scammer is now in your alliance and I exposed him? cosmoray: There has to be no notice of it in the character's services thread, only in the character bazaar (if it is a legitimate CCP trade). This thread is here: Tirnuen sales thread As previously said, the timestamps match and the owner's transactional behaviour also. Plus the isk amendments. I'm as sure as can be that this is a new owner. Were you given the Full API key? Yes, to two of his accounts Did you check all the characters? Yes Did you search all the characters? Yes Did you download all the wallet transactions? Yes Did you research any wierd entries or wallet transfers? Yes, all those of the previous owner to see how much he scammed Did you see the transfer of funds that enabled the character sale? Remember the ISK has to go to the character for sale as per forum rules? Yes, 6 billion isk transferred matching the time of the sales thread and confirmation posts, followed by a full isk transfer to the character Cynara I know my name is linked with Tirnuen, but all I said was this was a new owner according to what is possible to investigate. I never guaranteed that the new owner might not decide to scam one day, but the fact that he came to me seeking to make amends does not suggest that this is his aim, otherwise he would not have foolishly transferred a bill isk to the guys hassling him (illegitimately) in his sales thread.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 03:16:00 - [41] This was his first message to me btw: To: Ramingo Hello I just purchased this character from the character auctions. She has a business doing alliance creation, third party transactions, etc. Here is her thread in the Sell Orders forum http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1315126 I would like to have the character audited. She has recently come under some bad PR of scamming an alliance or two out of a billion isk. I would like to find out as much as you could about her transactions, who she owes, or if she really did take peoples isk. I did speak to one of the alliance members who had said some bad things about her, and actually paid them 1b back today as my way of smoothing things over with them. I'm just trying to salvage the characters reputation and business. I feel having an audit done by you would be very helpful and at the least, show Im a new owner and want to do much better than the previous one. T
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.21 04:48:00 - [42] Originally by: Ramingo SetrakDark: Might your opinion have anything to do with the fact that a known scammer is now in your alliance and I exposed him? Absolutely not. It has to do with your poor use of judgment in supporting your "claims", as well as your slapdash organization and presentation. The actual names involved are meaningless to me. Auditing requires a certain form of reasoning that some have and others don't. You have demonstrated twice now that you do not have, or use, this faculty.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 04:53:00 - [43] Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 04:54:13 I'm still learning about it and so far I've received very little constructive input, but trying to criticise my reasoning with your flawed logic doesn't contribute in any way. Perhaps you'd be gracious enough to point it out for me, rather than just randomly saying my audits suck? I might not have presented my findings that well in my first two audits, but I think I made up for it when it came to the follow up questions on the first one, by Estel, as he did not inquire further - I take that as having answered his questions satisfactorily and await to see how he responds to my answers to the last audit.
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.21 05:01:00 - [44] Unfortunately, it's not something you can learn "with practice". It's a matter of character and experiences. It would be like teaching someone how to be funny. There has to be that base skill or talent or inclination, or all the practice and advice in the world is meaningless.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.21 05:06:00 - [45] Perhaps you should just read up on how we do audits around here? VV, Kazzac and my personal favorite Varo Jan did some excellent audits. We all do our audits differently, I took from all of the above, adapted it to my own style and went from there. I agree with the criticism so far, it might not be spoon-feeding you on how to audit, but imo if you need that, you wont cut it as an auditor here.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 05:33:00 - [46] Well, the audit on Tirnuen was of a controversial nature to begin with, but nonetheless I established that he appeared very much to be a new owner, both based on facts such as sales thread and corresponding transfer, as well as my personal opinion of his wallet transactions, communication etc... My first audit I think went well, I audited his transactions and determined his profitability which was all I was asked to do. I haven't had a challenging audit yet in terms of massive number of financial transactions, multiple linked accounts, etc... but since it seems most criticism comes from the character audit of Tirnuen I can merely restate that all signs indicate he was a new owner. It's a controversial thing as some of the victims, or a member of the scammer's alliance, think this was just a ruse by Tirnuen to repeat his scamming, but apparently the alliance creation service has already continued business since after the sale of the character and no scams have been reported yet. Whether or not he will scam in the future I can't predict, but the simple fact is I presented findings that all points led me to believe it is a new owner - and I did write that there is no 100% way to guarantee this. Whether you want to believe my statement or not is up to you, I merely function as an indicator which I think I have done. Now the way I formatted/presented/referenced those findings in the initial post may not be best, but that's cosmetic and easily improved upon - the way I conducted my audit however is not and I did everything I promised I would.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.21 05:36:00 - [47] You completely ignore the major red flag that the new owner is a known character flipper! You also try to turn Setraks criticism into some personal vendetta against you, because you "exposed" something completely irrelevant. You are the one with a flawed logic sir.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 05:46:00 - [48] Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 05:46:19 Originally by: Ji Sama Edited by: Ji Sama on 21/08/2010 05:39:20 You completely ignore the major red flag that the new owner is a character flipper! You also try to turn Setraks criticism into some personal vendetta against you, because you "exposed" something completely irrelevant. You are the one with a flawed logic sir. SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E Posted - 2010.08.20 17:51:00 - [38] - Quote Report Your "audits" are not acceptable. That being his first contact with me, out of the blue, leads me to believe he was trolling because I mentioned the scammer was now in his alliance. And I merely audited whether Tirnuen was a new owner or not, and for himself personally who the previous owner scammed. This was not a complete audit on whether his business was an investment opportunity, safe to invest in, what the new owner was like, what his NAV was, how many alts he has, what their SPs are, etc. I stuck to what I was contracted to do, namely the above 2 points. I had a look at previous audits you conducted Ji Sama, and I like your methodology, the different coloured flags, scope of audit, etc..., and will endeavour to report in a similar fashion in future. However, for the audit on Tirnuen this kind of format wasn't possible and it was not what I was asked to do.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.21 05:50:00 - [49] Edited by: Ji Sama on 21/08/2010 05:51:13 Check my edit mate :( Sorry for the ninja :( But what your audit should have revealed, was the clear ties to a known character flipper. A character flipper we have no idea whos real identity is. This is a red flag, I would personally never have come to the conclusion you did. But then again I would never have accepted to audit a known scammer. It is simply not something I would associate my name with, for what ever reason. But you of course arent me :)
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 06:02:00 - [50] Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 06:03:33 Wasn't 1 of the first advices you gave me not to be picky and take any audit I can get to establish a rep ^^? Anyway, like I said the audit was requested by him so he got to tell me what he wanted audited and as you can see in the message it was those 2 things, namely whether or not it was indeed a new owner, and who got scammed/for how much in the past. If I had to audit his business as a type of investment, i.e. seeking investors/loans/issuing bonds, I would have either refused or approached it differently/used different checks and pointed out different things. But nowhere was I asked to post about the new owner was a security hazard or not - merely that it was indeed a new owner. That's why I don't appreciate the criticism from the Rage guy, because he says my audit was unacceptable as to his perception of what an audit should be like, but the fact of the matter is this wasn't a regular audit by any means. Edit: Thanks for the link, already found it and your 2nd audit. I'd like to do a mixture of scam alert, actual earnings, and potential for growth, on business audits.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.21 06:05:00 - [51] Edited by: Ji Sama on 21/08/2010 06:06:11 I said: Quote: You would have to start with smaller ventures, and perhaps get a more experienced auditor, to co-audit any ventures in the beginning to see if you are up to par. You can interpret that as you like, I stand by what I said. It is your job as an auditor, to look beyond what is obvious. You are putting your name on the line, and not checking the background of a potential client can turn into a pitchfork party, where it is your arse on the grill. I have really said what I wanted to say, I will let you get back to your work, and wish you the best of luck.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 06:10:00 - [52] Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 06:09:57 Thank you, I appreciate the input even if it is criticism. I don't expect to be spoon-fed and I know I'm going to continue making errors in the future, but in this case I was merely trying to rigorously stick to my client's demands.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.08.21 06:27:00 - [53] I am going to try to help you out, I honestly am. Firstly some MD perspective. We are not a very trusting group of people. Many successful scams have been conducted here, so this has made investors weary of all new offerings. As soon as someone looks for even a few hundred million you can bet that people will do their own thorough search using all the forum techniques to unmask any irregularities. I am now going to conduct my own little audit on the new auditor (you), from a very MD point of view. This will be done by borrowing certain auitors reporting styles. 1. New person wants to become an auditor - green flag (we need the help) 2. new person has no MD history - Yellow flag (not a career killer) 3. new person has no provable history - yellow flag (obstacle but not impossible) 4. new person presented well written post and seems articulate and intelligent - green flag 5. Within a couple of days of posting, a new unknown person posts in his thread asking for an audit - Red Flag (5 minutes of checking would have found a known auditor) 6. new auditor takes on client who is character flipper - red flag 7. New person works with scammer who allegedly sold character - red flag 8. New auditor gives unknown character flipper clean audit - Red flag The sequence of events may have been purely coincidental, but it looks really fishy. When something in MD looks off, it usually is. The only way you MAY be vindicated is for a 2nd auditor to agree with your first audit. A second auditor would need proof of the character transfer ISK, and check the wallet transactions. If you are an innocent person trying to make a new profession then you picked a horrible client who is going to kill you as an auditor. Never work with characters that have scammed, ever. Never work with character flippers. Unfortunately on MD you are guilty until proven innocent.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 06:39:00 - [54] Thanks cosmoray, it does indeed look fishy when you point it out. I've asked Tirnuen if it's ok if somebody else takes a quick look at his full API to confirm what I've said, more specifically the character transfer. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes as the transaction was made less than 5 days ago and is the 2nd largest, after the transfer of all isk to the old owner's alt Cynara. Hopefully we can put this audit behind me and move on to the regular type of audits!
Tirnuen Drunken Elf Dance Squad Bl00d Bath and Beyond	Posted - 2010.08.21 07:04:00 - [55] All I requested was someone to go over the wallet and transaction history for me. I needed to see what I was getting myself into when taking over this character. I was hearing two sides of stories from the previous owner, and some parties who were upset. Ramingo did what I asked of him and I was able to speak to the offended parties and make ammends by paying them back. In hindsite, perhaps I should of asked all of this to be discreet. But going forward, he has helped me mend fences and build trust with those same people who were upset at the old owner. So he did a great job IMO. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [SERVICE] Alliance/ Corporation Creation Service [ACCS] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1140733&page=1
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.08.21 08:01:00 - [56] Originally by: Ramingo I've asked Tirnuen if it's ok if somebody else takes a quick look at his full API to confirm what I've said, more specifically the character transfer. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. Five minutes? Are you nuts? No self-respecting auditor is going to merely check a single transaction on a known scammer's account in order to confirm the findings of an unknown auditor. Think before you write. You're demonstrating zero prudence and 100% hastiness - in more than one post.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 08:14:00 - [57] Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 08:15:17 Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Ramingo I've asked Tirnuen if it's ok if somebody else takes a quick look at his full API to confirm what I've said, more specifically the character transfer. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. Five minutes? Are you nuts? No self-respecting auditor is going to merely check a single transaction on a known scammer's account in order to confirm the findings of an unknown auditor. Think before you write. You're demonstrating zero prudence and 100% hastiness - in more than one post. I thought the issue was simply whether or not the isk was transferred at the point of sale in accordance with the sales thread. I asked you to simply CONFIRM the 1 single transaction as corroborating the sale, not to do a full audit on the guy's account because that was never even under discussion! Frankly I've had enough of this criticism. I did a private check on someone, it was not a regular audit, I fulfilled every part of the request, and end up being ***ed at left and right by people who expect me to do a fullscale audit when that was not what was asked for. The new owner has received several evemails already from the people the previous owner scammed, thanking him for the amends etc..., I've sent you guys the full API keys (with Tirnuen's permission) so you can confirm yourself rather than spending hours debunking my credentials, and you've already more than massacred my audit thread because of it. Thanks for nothing - at least I can't say I wasn't warned by the guys on the first page telling me I'd get ***ed at left and right. EDIT: I was asked to: - Check if it was a new owner: CONFIRMED as best as is possible within the means of the game. ALso confirmed by subsequent actions of the new owner. - Find out who got scammed and how much for: DONE, with special thanks from the contractor.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2010.08.21 08:34:00 - [58] Cosmoray hit the nail on the head.He described EXACTLY what i was thinking when reading your offer.
Lord Arbalest Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.21 08:53:00 - [59] Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Ramingo I've asked Tirnuen if it's ok if somebody else takes a quick look at his full API to confirm what I've said, more specifically the character transfer. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. Five minutes? Are you nuts? No self-respecting auditor is going to merely check a single transaction on a known scammer's account in order to confirm the findings of an unknown auditor. Think before you write. You're demonstrating zero prudence and 100% hastiness - in more than one post. There goes your auditing career. I agree with everything Varo has just said. Pure lack of understanding and unfortunately, that is not a quality an Auditor should have.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.08.21 09:55:00 - [60] Originally by: Ramingo Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 08:15:17 Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Ramingo I've asked Tirnuen if it's ok if somebody else takes a quick look at his full API to confirm what I've said, more specifically the character transfer. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. Five minutes? Are you nuts? No self-respecting auditor is going to merely check a single transaction on a known scammer's account in order to confirm the findings of an unknown auditor. Think before you write. You're demonstrating zero prudence and 100% hastiness - in more than one post. I thought the issue was simply whether or not the isk was transferred at the point of sale in accordance with the sales thread. I asked you to simply CONFIRM the 1 single transaction as corroborating the sale, not to do a full audit on the guy's account because that was never even under discussion! Frankly I've had enough of this criticism. I did a private check on someone, it was not a regular audit, I fulfilled every part of the request, and end up being ***ed at left and right by people who expect me to do a fullscale audit when that was not what was asked for. The new owner has received several evemails already from the people the previous owner scammed, thanking him for the amends etc..., I've sent you guys the full API keys (with Tirnuen's permission) so you can confirm yourself rather than spending hours debunking my credentials, and you've already more than massacred my audit thread because of it. Thanks for nothing - at least I can't say I wasn't warned by the guys on the first page telling me I'd get ***ed at left and right. EDIT: I was asked to: - Check if it was a new owner: CONFIRMED as best as is possible within the means of the game. ALso confirmed by subsequent actions of the new owner. - Find out who got scammed and how much for: DONE, with special thanks from the contractor. The thing is, your responsibility as an auditor is not, primarily, to your client but to the public who you represent the client to. You say you did a private audit but this isn't the case. You published your findings which now makes you responsible for how the person you audited might take advantage of your audit. I'm not sure things are quite as bad as are being painted but this particular audit was a very tricky one and you really have to be careful who you tie your own good name to. You need to be aware of not just the points you make but also how your investigations might be used by someone who is a scammer who wants the gloss of a 'legitimate' audit. This is why a thorough investigation is needed even if the client does not specifically request it.

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