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Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.17 05:12:00 - [1] Edited by: Ramingo on 17/08/2010 05:17:20 I did a search to find out about the current auditor program, if any, and the only post I found was locked due to inactivity. Since I can't play the game at work, but do have quite a lot of spare time, I figured I'd offer my services as auditor. I doubt it matters, but I also used to work as Internal Auditor for a European stock exchange. Anyway, what I will do: - Check wallet transactions - Check assets - Verify trading history/ profit making potential - Check contract history - Find characters traded officially, and any potential alts - Check employment history/ do a background check if neccessary - Check forum activity - Use my best judgement to deliver an objective report - I will and most likely can not use any of the information gained to my advantage, as I'm currently a 100% pure FW PvPer and mission runner (have been for over a year now) If you're interested in getting a character or corporation audit done, leave a message here or eve-mail me in game on Ramingo if you want the audit to be confidential.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.08.17 05:30:00 - [2] I'm offering to audit this auditer for a modest cut of the fee.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.08.17 11:07:00 - [3] Originally by: Ramingo - Whenever there is an issue of trust Like now? Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Nathan Jameson	Posted - 2010.08.17 11:10:00 - [4] Thought it said "offering adult services." Left disappointed.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.17 11:59:00 - [5] Edited by: Ramingo on 17/08/2010 12:01:57 Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Ramingo - Whenever there is an issue of trust Like now? Well, I might not have the reputation you do but I've done my own share of things in eve, both MD and in-game related, such as: - Making loans to individuals/corps - Borrowed close to 5 bill isk and repaid it - Running a newbie help channel for the caldari militia - Featured in the news a few times for founding the CDI (FW) - Access to 10 bill isk of assets during Nex Exercitus' move from Sagain to Fountain These might be nothing in comparison to your credibility but in the very least I'd assume it gives me the foundation for my own. Either way, I'm only looking to do audits at the moment and contributing to the MD, not obtain billions in loans or being 3rd party to supercap trades. Edit: I'm also not asking for my first few audits to be on multi-billion enterprises, I'm just as happy to start off with smaller investments/individuals that need auditing.
CF ProctoR Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.17 12:34:00 - [6] Hi there, Ive known ramingo for nearly half a year now , and he has been VERY loyal and trustworthy. I wish you good luck with your service mate, :) Best regards CF ProctoR Core Impulse
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2010.08.17 12:40:00 - [7] I(we?) would still have an issue of trust... with you. You seem to be a complete no one. -GV
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.17 13:09:00 - [8] Edited by: Ramingo on 17/08/2010 13:12:04 Originally by: Gabriel Virtus I(we?) would still have an issue of trust... with you. You seem to be a complete no one. -GV Only 1 way to start building a rep in auditing, and as far as I'm concerned that's by doing audits. I am not looking to invest in bonds or issue them myself. If I did that it'd be far, far more profitable than auditing, add to that I'm not much of a trader. I do however know about figures, profitability, security (I've led my own corp for the last 6 months and had a supercap + 2nd largest cap fleet in FW in it before we went on to other things). So, I'm open for business and if anybody wants an audit done, no matter how small, leave a message! P.S.: Given that the current auditors seem to have little time to fulfill all the audits demanded, old auditors retire, and there's a constant number of replies to bonds "reserved pending audit" you are not exactly doing a good job at encouraging new auditors to come forward and fill the gap.
Roguehalo Caldari Resonance Laboratories	Posted - 2010.08.17 13:16:00 - [9] This looks like a very well written offer by Ramingo. I wish people would use some judgement occasionally instead of just calling 'scam' merely because........well because what? If I was just starting out and wanted to run a 1-2b bond I'd be very happy to be audied by Ramingo
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2010.08.17 13:20:00 - [10] Auditing in EVE comes with a baggage.. When you do an audit and you confirm the CEO's claims of being who they say they are, able to make the ISK they make etc. If they turn scam, the Auditor gets some of that blame. Even though they shouldn't but they do. Can you handle the idea that if you audit and declare everything OK, then they scam, you could be considered part of that scam? There is also an audit fund which is active did you consider joining that project as an available auditor? Amarr for Life
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.17 13:38:00 - [11] If I audit someone I give an objective assessment based on the facts. I'll do as much research as is possible - if there are doubts then I will post them there. However, no audit is 100% accurate. Someone with a great trading history might just decide he wants to quit EvE for RL reasons and go out with a big bang, or things like that. However I will do my best and dig as deep as I can before coming to any conclusion, and I think that will become apparent after my first couple of audits - if they're ever going to come to fruition given the negative feedback I've received so far. No, I'm not interested in the audit fund as I have my own idea of how to conduct audits and don't see any benefit in joining it. This is not to say that I don't support it, but as far as I'm concerned auditing is a one-man job (additional auditors can be brought in but they should audit independently as well) so that results can be compared. Since as you said I will be putting my own name on the line I should also be solely responsible for myself.
CantStopThe Rokh Paper Tiger Merc Group	Posted - 2010.08.17 13:39:00 - [12] You will probably want to start out trying to do some free audits on either smaller stuff or side by side with a known auditor. Even without the trust issue there is still the issue that you might not know how to audit someone effectively.
0hai	Posted - 2010.08.17 13:40:00 - [13] Originally by: Ramingo Edited by: Ramingo on 17/08/2010 12:01:57 - Featured in the news a few times for founding the CDI (FW) Did Chribba support this in the article? Originally by: Gladys Pank My erections will stand proud forever.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.17 13:43:00 - [14] I would personally like to welcome you as an auditor. You would have to start with smaller ventures, and perhaps get a more experienced auditor, to co-audit any ventures in the beginning to see if you are up to par. Other than that, I have nothing to add.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.17 13:44:00 - [15] Originally by: CantStopThe Rokh You will probably want to start out trying to do some free audits on either smaller stuff or side by side with a known auditor. Even without the trust issue there is still the issue that you might not know how to audit someone effectively. I am offering free audits and I am also available for smaller ones, as advertised. If you want/need anything audited, let me know! Worst case you can hire me and then another auditor independently and compare findings ;)
Lucyna Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises	Posted - 2010.08.17 17:13:00 - [16] I sent you an eve-mail. I won't be able to be on the client for 7-8 more hours. Lucyna.
Lucyna Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises	Posted - 2010.08.17 23:33:00 - [17] Originally by: Lucyna I sent you an eve-mail. I won't be able to be on the client for 7-8 more hours. Lucyna. Alright, I've sent him some info, let's see how much he sells my "top sekret" trade routes for He said he'll get a start on in the morning. Oh and MD, just to let you know, I'm happy to be your guinea pig for this guy, assuming I'm the first one to have a go with this.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.08.17 23:49:00 - [18] Good luck with auditing. Personally I think its underpaid, time consuming, and thankless. You will get hammered because you don't have a name yet, and if things go wrong to a client and they scam you will lose all credibility too. Also auditing seems to have died off recently and I can't quite put my finger on when this happenned? Many IPO's/bonds from new players seemed to have launched successfully without audits. Cista's new exchange for small launches also has helped many new corps come to the market. At that low level its just really a punt on a few 10's of millions and nothing to cry about.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.18 00:14:00 - [19] Originally by: cosmoray Also auditing seems to have died off recently and I can't quite put my finger on when this happenned? It happened a few months ago when nothing but obvious scams were coming out and the current auditors said "F&#^ this, it's not worth it".
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.18 06:19:00 - [20] Having conducted my first audit on Lucyna, the findings are presented in the IPO's thread: ISKBE
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.08.18 10:37:00 - [21] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 18/08/2010 10:42:51 Quote: Only 1 way to start building a rep in auditing, and as far as I'm concerned that's by doing audits. I know the difference is subtle, but imho you don't build a rep in auditing, you earn a rep in auditing. In the beginning the "rep meter" will be -9000, but if you go ahead despite the 1000 obstacles you'll have to jump over, rep will come to you without any need to build it. Quote: However I will do my best and dig as deep as I can before coming to any conclusion, and I think that will become apparent after my first couple of audits - if they're ever going to come to fruition given the negative feedback I've received so far. Getting acceptance from the ever suspicious and conservative MD community is a long and painful process. You must not let the negative feedback kill you, it's an entry barrier (ordaly!) and a challenge you can defeat if you fight strong, smart and for a long time enough. Quote: Also auditing seems to have died off recently and I can't quite put my finger on when this happenned? "Not worth it" is the keyword. Nerve wrecking, patience tolling, flames fuel, poor man's metaprofession, you can label it as you want and this is what makes people steer clear. We ARE in MD after all, a good auditor knows that the minerals (audits) he mines are NOT free, if the returns for the activity are below a perceived thresold he just stops doing them. Just think about this: it yields vastly less than L4 yawn-missioning yet - you put your face at stake, flamers, haters and trolls just wait for a typo to put you on a cross. - most audits are as boring as missioning, yet you have to deliver on NAV calculation precision, on realistic projected income. - have to heavily invest in game knowledge, while a 2 months old alt can fly his first L4 without even having a clue beyond reading EvE-Survival. - plus there's the feeling: audit is considered superfluous exactly by and for the few who would actually be audited: the mega-billions affairs. Only Proton Power and few others even bothered with performance reports, so what feelings can you get when all you are considered good for, is to weed off noobs? - persisting group of people constantly remiding how it's worthless and giving false feelings of safety. I mean, auditing can give great satisfactions (expecially when you do a first of some new kind of investment, then it becomes routine) but of all of my RL experiences I find only RL trading in a losing trade as bad to morale as some days as auditor. At a certain point you develop a sort of repulsion, of nausea. The umpteenth guy mails you asking for an audit, and all you feel is: "NO, NOT AGAIN!" Now, consider the above as just a "brain dump" of feelings, not a whine. I am perfectly comfortable right now and doing what I love gets back to technical analysis charting software. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.08.18 11:11:00 - [22] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: cosmoray Also auditing seems to have died off recently and I can't quite put my finger on when this happenned? It happened a few months ago when nothing but obvious scams were coming out and the current auditors said "F&#^ this, it's not worth it". This auditor simply had too much on his plate at the time. There was no other reason.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.08.18 20:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Ramingo No, I'm not interested in the audit fund as I have my own idea of how to conduct audits and don't see any benefit in joining it. This is not to say that I don't support it, but as far as I'm concerned auditing is a one-man job (additional auditors can be brought in but they should audit independently as well) so that results can be compared. Since as you said I will be putting my own name on the line I should also be solely responsible for myself. A new batch of auditors is definitely needed - be warned though, the burnout rate is pretty high . On the audit fund, I think you might have misunderstood its nature and purpose. It is not something you join as an auditor and nor does it impose audit formats. Rather, it provides funding to help start-up offerings pay auditors for their work when they would otherwise not be able to afford it. That is, currently, its sole function. As a side note, given the state of the profession at the moment the fund might want to look into upping the amounts it pays out. Current scales do not seem to be helping keep auditing as viable as was initially hoped.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.18 22:20:00 - [24] This is where i waltze in and say; I proposed in the discussion phase that we made payments around 100-150M per audited account :p But since I am a gentle woman, I wont!
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.19 08:33:00 - [25] Varo, do you still do audits at all? RAW, I only remember what I read about the audit fund almost a year ago or so (seems like a long time ago) and back then it didn't interest me. I just found the thread and the last entry is from over half a year ago - doesn't seem to me like it's active anymore. On a different note, I've been approached to audit someone who apparently bought a character that was used to scam with, and wants me to find out as much about it as possible. That's not something I had in mind when I created this service but I think these types of audits could turn into a core part of any auditor's offering. Unless you're auditing Riethe's char that is ;)
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.08.19 08:48:00 - [26] Originally by: Ramingo Varo, do you still do audits at all? I've not done one in a while, and it's unlikely I'll do many in future. But never say never. Quote: On a different note, I've been approached to audit someone who apparently bought a character that was used to scam with, and wants me to find out as much about it as possible. That's not something I had in mind when I created this service but I think these types of audits could turn into a core part of any auditor's offering. The emphasis on MD style audits (especially for first time offerings) is far more on scammer identification than it is on financial aspects. That's why game knowledge (aka how to spot a scammer at sixty paces) is far more relevant than an RL accounting background. However, if you're asked to audit a corp's books in accordance with gaap, then RL credentials are essential.
Hel O'Ween Men On A Mission	Posted - 2010.08.19 09:39:00 - [27] Originally by: Ramingo I just found the thread and the last entry is from over half a year ago - doesn't seem to me like it's active anymore. The fund is as active as entrepreneurs want it to be. If no one requests an audit of his business to be subsidized, well, the fund stays dormant. Perhaps a bump of the thread here and there could have been done. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager
RAW23	Posted - 2010.08.19 09:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Ramingo RAW, I only remember what I read about the audit fund almost a year ago or so (seems like a long time ago) and back then it didn't interest me. I just found the thread and the last entry is from over half a year ago - doesn't seem to me like it's active anymore. The audit fund is still running (Ji and I are amongst the directors), although things have been a bit quiet in the last two months due to the lack of auditors. The thread you were looking at is probably the first thread - there has been another one since but, in any case, most of the fund's business is done via evemail and not in those threads. I'm still not quite clear on what doesn't interest you about the fund. Let's say a new face wants to launch a 2bil bond and is told by potential investors that he needs an audit. He gets a quote from an auditor, such as yourself, and finds that it will cost him 100-150mil. Given the size of the bond and the state of his own finances, this is too expensive for him so, rather than say he won't have an audit or, alternatively, trying to push the auditor's fee down, he applies to the audit fund to cover part of the cost. The audit fund will then pay the auditor whatever is agreed. The only interaction between the fund and the auditor is the dishing out of some cash, which is why I can't quite understand what you don't like about it.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.19 10:19:00 - [29] I don't have anything against the Audit Fund, I think it's a great idea. From what I understand it's the client/new venture owner that needs to apply to the fund to partially pay my fee. If they want to do that it's up to them. So far I've only done 1 audit on ISKBE and that was done for free, and the other is currently in progress and doesn't seem to need the assistance of the fund.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.19 10:54:00 - [30] Are you perhaps confusing cista2's audit initiative with the audit fund?
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.19 11:53:00 - [31] Originally by: Ji Sama Are you perhaps confusing cista2's audit initiative with the audit fund? nope never even heard of cista's before, based my comment entirely on the below comment: "He gets a quote from an auditor, such as yourself, and finds that it will cost him 100-150mil. Given the size of the bond and the state of his own finances, this is too expensive for him so, rather than say he won't have an audit or, alternatively, trying to push the auditor's fee down, he applies to the audit fund to cover part of the cost. The audit fund will then pay the auditor whatever is agreed."
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.19 11:56:00 - [32] Then I do not understand how you can say the last activity was 6 mths ago! But meh, it is not important!
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.19 12:59:00 - [33] http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1271639/page/6 You're actually the last to have posted on it half a year ago ;) Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve Take me to the EVE-Online forum thread View author employment history View author posting habits View only posts by author Posted - 2010.03.01 02:26:00 - [166] - Quote Mails sent out to Phoebe and Estel. The vote regarding Bobby's offer was passed (12.5B @ 4% interest paid in advance.) We still need 7.5B in donations.
Hel O'Ween Men On A Mission	Posted - 2010.08.19 13:05:00 - [34] Originally by: Ramingo http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1271639/page/6 That's the old (initial) thread. Here's the "new" one: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1296000 -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.19 13:07:00 - [35] Edited by: Ji Sama on 19/08/2010 13:10:00 MD Audit Fund Official Thread This is the correct thread, and as you can see, breaker posted in it 14 days ago! EDIT: @Hel O'ween thats also an old discussion thread
Tirnuen Perkone	Posted - 2010.08.19 19:26:00 - [36] Thank you for the audit services Ramingo. Very quick, thorough, and answered all my questions! A+ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [SERVICE] Alliance/ Corporation Creation Service [ACCS] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1140733&page=1
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.08.20 17:26:00 - [37] Edited by: Estel Arador on 20/08/2010 17:26:49 I have a few questions about your investigation reported here. Could you explain a bit about your method in this case and could you elaborate on your findings? I'm particularly interested in the time frame: when did the character sale take place and when did the alleged scams take place? I'm also confused about this part (but perhaps the time frame would clear up much of that confusion): "There have been two individuals/corporations that were scammed by the previous owner for 1 billion isk each, but the new owner indicated that he does not intend to repay them, given that he got scammed himself by doing so, and is free of any obligations." Who scammed who and how? Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.20 17:51:00 - [38] Your "audits" are not acceptable.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.08.20 18:32:00 - [39] Edited by: cosmoray on 20/08/2010 18:32:32 Sorry but what you call an audit of Tirnuen is an utter joke. I did a quick search and see that the character is a known scammer. Secondly the character was "allegedly" sold to a known character flipper - Rae Kharra. Rae Kharra has about 10-15 character sales threads up in forums over last 10-12 days. There is no mention of character sale in the Alliance creation Service Thread (Tirnuen). In fact the character had only be "officially" transferred about 1 hr when you were brought in to perform your audit. In under a day your audit gave the all clear. Were you given the Full API key? Did you check all the characters? Did you search all the characters? Did you download all the wallet transactions? Did you research any wierd entries or wallet transfers? Did you see the transfer of funds that enabled the character sale? Remember the ISK has to go to the character for sale as per forum rules? Sorry but you have come here offering a service and made a nice well written post, and you got nothing but good will because auditing is a thankless task. You then performed some super fast audit on a scammer! Your first audit failed on a massive level. Finally as soon as you find out that the character has a dodgy past or has scammed you walk away. Your name is now attatched to Tirnuen, and if there are still more SCAMS your brief auditing career is over. Sorry to say, but I wouldn't touch an IPO/Bond that you audit.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 03:12:00 - [40] Estel: I don't have Tirnuen's full API anymore but basically there was a sales thread in which the old Tirnuen used his character in RAGE to bid on his own char, but eventually Rae Kharra made a bid/buy-out. According to their sales post they were both online as the timestamp of the 6 billion isk transfer matches that of the confirmation posts. That, coupled with the fact that after the character transfer the dozens of isk transfers to Cynara ceased, in addition to the fact that it aligns with the "cashing in" of reputation, by scamming 2 guys, leads me to believe Tirnuen is in fact now in the hands of a new owner. Of course this could all be an elaborate scheme, but as far as an audit goes all signs indicate it is a new owner. The only way to be 100% sure would be to do a GM check on the IP address of the new owner, but those tools are beyond my reach. Another point that led me to believe so was that he tried to make amends (which is why he contacted me - he wanted to see who he legitimately owed isk to, how much, and to see if I could audit him so he could continue running the previous owner's business). Regarding the scam part, the transactions show that twice did the previous owner pocket 1 bill isk and immediately transfer it to his alt, Cynara, thus scamming them for 2 bill isk total. The new owner of Tirnuen however paid 1 billion isk to someone who claiemd to have been scammed by the previous owner, yet the logs showed no transaction with the person claiming to have been scammed, nor by his alliance. Thus it led me to believe he got scammed himself by that alliance. SetrakDark: Might your opinion have anything to do with the fact that a known scammer is now in your alliance and I exposed him? cosmoray: There has to be no notice of it in the character's services thread, only in the character bazaar (if it is a legitimate CCP trade). This thread is here: Tirnuen sales thread As previously said, the timestamps match and the owner's transactional behaviour also. Plus the isk amendments. I'm as sure as can be that this is a new owner. Were you given the Full API key? Yes, to two of his accounts Did you check all the characters? Yes Did you search all the characters? Yes Did you download all the wallet transactions? Yes Did you research any wierd entries or wallet transfers? Yes, all those of the previous owner to see how much he scammed Did you see the transfer of funds that enabled the character sale? Remember the ISK has to go to the character for sale as per forum rules? Yes, 6 billion isk transferred matching the time of the sales thread and confirmation posts, followed by a full isk transfer to the character Cynara I know my name is linked with Tirnuen, but all I said was this was a new owner according to what is possible to investigate. I never guaranteed that the new owner might not decide to scam one day, but the fact that he came to me seeking to make amends does not suggest that this is his aim, otherwise he would not have foolishly transferred a bill isk to the guys hassling him (illegitimately) in his sales thread.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 03:16:00 - [41] This was his first message to me btw: To: Ramingo Hello I just purchased this character from the character auctions. She has a business doing alliance creation, third party transactions, etc. Here is her thread in the Sell Orders forum http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1315126 I would like to have the character audited. She has recently come under some bad PR of scamming an alliance or two out of a billion isk. I would like to find out as much as you could about her transactions, who she owes, or if she really did take peoples isk. I did speak to one of the alliance members who had said some bad things about her, and actually paid them 1b back today as my way of smoothing things over with them. I'm just trying to salvage the characters reputation and business. I feel having an audit done by you would be very helpful and at the least, show Im a new owner and want to do much better than the previous one. T
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.21 04:48:00 - [42] Originally by: Ramingo SetrakDark: Might your opinion have anything to do with the fact that a known scammer is now in your alliance and I exposed him? Absolutely not. It has to do with your poor use of judgment in supporting your "claims", as well as your slapdash organization and presentation. The actual names involved are meaningless to me. Auditing requires a certain form of reasoning that some have and others don't. You have demonstrated twice now that you do not have, or use, this faculty.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 04:53:00 - [43] Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 04:54:13 I'm still learning about it and so far I've received very little constructive input, but trying to criticise my reasoning with your flawed logic doesn't contribute in any way. Perhaps you'd be gracious enough to point it out for me, rather than just randomly saying my audits suck? I might not have presented my findings that well in my first two audits, but I think I made up for it when it came to the follow up questions on the first one, by Estel, as he did not inquire further - I take that as having answered his questions satisfactorily and await to see how he responds to my answers to the last audit.
SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.21 05:01:00 - [44] Unfortunately, it's not something you can learn "with practice". It's a matter of character and experiences. It would be like teaching someone how to be funny. There has to be that base skill or talent or inclination, or all the practice and advice in the world is meaningless.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.21 05:06:00 - [45] Perhaps you should just read up on how we do audits around here? VV, Kazzac and my personal favorite Varo Jan did some excellent audits. We all do our audits differently, I took from all of the above, adapted it to my own style and went from there. I agree with the criticism so far, it might not be spoon-feeding you on how to audit, but imo if you need that, you wont cut it as an auditor here.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 05:33:00 - [46] Well, the audit on Tirnuen was of a controversial nature to begin with, but nonetheless I established that he appeared very much to be a new owner, both based on facts such as sales thread and corresponding transfer, as well as my personal opinion of his wallet transactions, communication etc... My first audit I think went well, I audited his transactions and determined his profitability which was all I was asked to do. I haven't had a challenging audit yet in terms of massive number of financial transactions, multiple linked accounts, etc... but since it seems most criticism comes from the character audit of Tirnuen I can merely restate that all signs indicate he was a new owner. It's a controversial thing as some of the victims, or a member of the scammer's alliance, think this was just a ruse by Tirnuen to repeat his scamming, but apparently the alliance creation service has already continued business since after the sale of the character and no scams have been reported yet. Whether or not he will scam in the future I can't predict, but the simple fact is I presented findings that all points led me to believe it is a new owner - and I did write that there is no 100% way to guarantee this. Whether you want to believe my statement or not is up to you, I merely function as an indicator which I think I have done. Now the way I formatted/presented/referenced those findings in the initial post may not be best, but that's cosmetic and easily improved upon - the way I conducted my audit however is not and I did everything I promised I would.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.21 05:36:00 - [47] You completely ignore the major red flag that the new owner is a known character flipper! You also try to turn Setraks criticism into some personal vendetta against you, because you "exposed" something completely irrelevant. You are the one with a flawed logic sir.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 05:46:00 - [48] Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 05:46:19 Originally by: Ji Sama Edited by: Ji Sama on 21/08/2010 05:39:20 You completely ignore the major red flag that the new owner is a character flipper! You also try to turn Setraks criticism into some personal vendetta against you, because you "exposed" something completely irrelevant. You are the one with a flawed logic sir. SetrakDark Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E Posted - 2010.08.20 17:51:00 - [38] - Quote Report Your "audits" are not acceptable. That being his first contact with me, out of the blue, leads me to believe he was trolling because I mentioned the scammer was now in his alliance. And I merely audited whether Tirnuen was a new owner or not, and for himself personally who the previous owner scammed. This was not a complete audit on whether his business was an investment opportunity, safe to invest in, what the new owner was like, what his NAV was, how many alts he has, what their SPs are, etc. I stuck to what I was contracted to do, namely the above 2 points. I had a look at previous audits you conducted Ji Sama, and I like your methodology, the different coloured flags, scope of audit, etc..., and will endeavour to report in a similar fashion in future. However, for the audit on Tirnuen this kind of format wasn't possible and it was not what I was asked to do.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.21 05:50:00 - [49] Edited by: Ji Sama on 21/08/2010 05:51:13 Check my edit mate :( Sorry for the ninja :( But what your audit should have revealed, was the clear ties to a known character flipper. A character flipper we have no idea whos real identity is. This is a red flag, I would personally never have come to the conclusion you did. But then again I would never have accepted to audit a known scammer. It is simply not something I would associate my name with, for what ever reason. But you of course arent me :)
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 06:02:00 - [50] Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 06:03:33 Wasn't 1 of the first advices you gave me not to be picky and take any audit I can get to establish a rep ^^? Anyway, like I said the audit was requested by him so he got to tell me what he wanted audited and as you can see in the message it was those 2 things, namely whether or not it was indeed a new owner, and who got scammed/for how much in the past. If I had to audit his business as a type of investment, i.e. seeking investors/loans/issuing bonds, I would have either refused or approached it differently/used different checks and pointed out different things. But nowhere was I asked to post about the new owner was a security hazard or not - merely that it was indeed a new owner. That's why I don't appreciate the criticism from the Rage guy, because he says my audit was unacceptable as to his perception of what an audit should be like, but the fact of the matter is this wasn't a regular audit by any means. Edit: Thanks for the link, already found it and your 2nd audit. I'd like to do a mixture of scam alert, actual earnings, and potential for growth, on business audits.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.21 06:05:00 - [51] Edited by: Ji Sama on 21/08/2010 06:06:11 I said: Quote: You would have to start with smaller ventures, and perhaps get a more experienced auditor, to co-audit any ventures in the beginning to see if you are up to par. You can interpret that as you like, I stand by what I said. It is your job as an auditor, to look beyond what is obvious. You are putting your name on the line, and not checking the background of a potential client can turn into a pitchfork party, where it is your arse on the grill. I have really said what I wanted to say, I will let you get back to your work, and wish you the best of luck.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 06:10:00 - [52] Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 06:09:57 Thank you, I appreciate the input even if it is criticism. I don't expect to be spoon-fed and I know I'm going to continue making errors in the future, but in this case I was merely trying to rigorously stick to my client's demands.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.08.21 06:27:00 - [53] I am going to try to help you out, I honestly am. Firstly some MD perspective. We are not a very trusting group of people. Many successful scams have been conducted here, so this has made investors weary of all new offerings. As soon as someone looks for even a few hundred million you can bet that people will do their own thorough search using all the forum techniques to unmask any irregularities. I am now going to conduct my own little audit on the new auditor (you), from a very MD point of view. This will be done by borrowing certain auitors reporting styles. 1. New person wants to become an auditor - green flag (we need the help) 2. new person has no MD history - Yellow flag (not a career killer) 3. new person has no provable history - yellow flag (obstacle but not impossible) 4. new person presented well written post and seems articulate and intelligent - green flag 5. Within a couple of days of posting, a new unknown person posts in his thread asking for an audit - Red Flag (5 minutes of checking would have found a known auditor) 6. new auditor takes on client who is character flipper - red flag 7. New person works with scammer who allegedly sold character - red flag 8. New auditor gives unknown character flipper clean audit - Red flag The sequence of events may have been purely coincidental, but it looks really fishy. When something in MD looks off, it usually is. The only way you MAY be vindicated is for a 2nd auditor to agree with your first audit. A second auditor would need proof of the character transfer ISK, and check the wallet transactions. If you are an innocent person trying to make a new profession then you picked a horrible client who is going to kill you as an auditor. Never work with characters that have scammed, ever. Never work with character flippers. Unfortunately on MD you are guilty until proven innocent.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 06:39:00 - [54] Thanks cosmoray, it does indeed look fishy when you point it out. I've asked Tirnuen if it's ok if somebody else takes a quick look at his full API to confirm what I've said, more specifically the character transfer. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes as the transaction was made less than 5 days ago and is the 2nd largest, after the transfer of all isk to the old owner's alt Cynara. Hopefully we can put this audit behind me and move on to the regular type of audits!
Tirnuen Drunken Elf Dance Squad Bl00d Bath and Beyond	Posted - 2010.08.21 07:04:00 - [55] All I requested was someone to go over the wallet and transaction history for me. I needed to see what I was getting myself into when taking over this character. I was hearing two sides of stories from the previous owner, and some parties who were upset. Ramingo did what I asked of him and I was able to speak to the offended parties and make ammends by paying them back. In hindsite, perhaps I should of asked all of this to be discreet. But going forward, he has helped me mend fences and build trust with those same people who were upset at the old owner. So he did a great job IMO. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [SERVICE] Alliance/ Corporation Creation Service [ACCS] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1140733&page=1
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.08.21 08:01:00 - [56] Originally by: Ramingo I've asked Tirnuen if it's ok if somebody else takes a quick look at his full API to confirm what I've said, more specifically the character transfer. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. Five minutes? Are you nuts? No self-respecting auditor is going to merely check a single transaction on a known scammer's account in order to confirm the findings of an unknown auditor. Think before you write. You're demonstrating zero prudence and 100% hastiness - in more than one post.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 08:14:00 - [57] Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 08:15:17 Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Ramingo I've asked Tirnuen if it's ok if somebody else takes a quick look at his full API to confirm what I've said, more specifically the character transfer. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. Five minutes? Are you nuts? No self-respecting auditor is going to merely check a single transaction on a known scammer's account in order to confirm the findings of an unknown auditor. Think before you write. You're demonstrating zero prudence and 100% hastiness - in more than one post. I thought the issue was simply whether or not the isk was transferred at the point of sale in accordance with the sales thread. I asked you to simply CONFIRM the 1 single transaction as corroborating the sale, not to do a full audit on the guy's account because that was never even under discussion! Frankly I've had enough of this criticism. I did a private check on someone, it was not a regular audit, I fulfilled every part of the request, and end up being ***ed at left and right by people who expect me to do a fullscale audit when that was not what was asked for. The new owner has received several evemails already from the people the previous owner scammed, thanking him for the amends etc..., I've sent you guys the full API keys (with Tirnuen's permission) so you can confirm yourself rather than spending hours debunking my credentials, and you've already more than massacred my audit thread because of it. Thanks for nothing - at least I can't say I wasn't warned by the guys on the first page telling me I'd get ***ed at left and right. EDIT: I was asked to: - Check if it was a new owner: CONFIRMED as best as is possible within the means of the game. ALso confirmed by subsequent actions of the new owner. - Find out who got scammed and how much for: DONE, with special thanks from the contractor.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2010.08.21 08:34:00 - [58] Cosmoray hit the nail on the head.He described EXACTLY what i was thinking when reading your offer.
Lord Arbalest Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.21 08:53:00 - [59] Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Ramingo I've asked Tirnuen if it's ok if somebody else takes a quick look at his full API to confirm what I've said, more specifically the character transfer. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. Five minutes? Are you nuts? No self-respecting auditor is going to merely check a single transaction on a known scammer's account in order to confirm the findings of an unknown auditor. Think before you write. You're demonstrating zero prudence and 100% hastiness - in more than one post. There goes your auditing career. I agree with everything Varo has just said. Pure lack of understanding and unfortunately, that is not a quality an Auditor should have.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.08.21 09:55:00 - [60] Originally by: Ramingo Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 08:15:17 Originally by: Varo Jan Originally by: Ramingo I've asked Tirnuen if it's ok if somebody else takes a quick look at his full API to confirm what I've said, more specifically the character transfer. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. Five minutes? Are you nuts? No self-respecting auditor is going to merely check a single transaction on a known scammer's account in order to confirm the findings of an unknown auditor. Think before you write. You're demonstrating zero prudence and 100% hastiness - in more than one post. I thought the issue was simply whether or not the isk was transferred at the point of sale in accordance with the sales thread. I asked you to simply CONFIRM the 1 single transaction as corroborating the sale, not to do a full audit on the guy's account because that was never even under discussion! Frankly I've had enough of this criticism. I did a private check on someone, it was not a regular audit, I fulfilled every part of the request, and end up being ***ed at left and right by people who expect me to do a fullscale audit when that was not what was asked for. The new owner has received several evemails already from the people the previous owner scammed, thanking him for the amends etc..., I've sent you guys the full API keys (with Tirnuen's permission) so you can confirm yourself rather than spending hours debunking my credentials, and you've already more than massacred my audit thread because of it. Thanks for nothing - at least I can't say I wasn't warned by the guys on the first page telling me I'd get ***ed at left and right. EDIT: I was asked to: - Check if it was a new owner: CONFIRMED as best as is possible within the means of the game. ALso confirmed by subsequent actions of the new owner. - Find out who got scammed and how much for: DONE, with special thanks from the contractor. The thing is, your responsibility as an auditor is not, primarily, to your client but to the public who you represent the client to. You say you did a private audit but this isn't the case. You published your findings which now makes you responsible for how the person you audited might take advantage of your audit. I'm not sure things are quite as bad as are being painted but this particular audit was a very tricky one and you really have to be careful who you tie your own good name to. You need to be aware of not just the points you make but also how your investigations might be used by someone who is a scammer who wants the gloss of a 'legitimate' audit. This is why a thorough investigation is needed even if the client does not specifically request it.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.08.21 10:08:00 - [61] Edited by: Estel Arador on 21/08/2010 10:18:24 Edited by: Estel Arador on 21/08/2010 10:16:44 Before I'll say anything else, I'd like to restate my disapproval of the use of wavy coloured flags in audit reports (or any other post for that matter). Before you know it the discussion will be about whether the red flag is burgundy or scarlet, instead of about the audited business. Just write a report which is clear and concise, then anything 'flagable' will be apparent to any reader. Originally by: Ramingo I might not have presented my findings that well in my first two audits, but I think I made up for it when it came to the follow up questions on the first one, by Estel, as he did not inquire further - I take that as having answered his questions satisfactorily I did not ask questions about your first audit, I have not even seen it. Up until my questions about the Tirnuen mess, my only interaction with you was my snide remark early in this thread. Originally by: Ramingo and await to see how he responds to my answers to the last audit Thanks for elaborating on the investigation you did. You seem to have had some indication that a sale may have taken place, but everything you saw might also be explained by someone shuffling some cash between his characters and doing some social engineering (on you). You are the only victim in this case, you were too trusting and too confident in the results (the fact that you got all information you could get without CCP intervention does not necessarily mean you got enough information). Even if the character was sold, the alleged new owner bought the character to use its skills and its reputation. Caveat Emptor applies here as anywhere else in Eve. The alleged buyer thought he was buying a good reputation, but he actually got a bad reputation. What you should've said when he approached you was "tough luck, move on", even if this case didn't smell as bad as it did. And that last part is where experience comes into play. Every experienced MD-citizen which has posted here says case this smells. The background of characters involved, the actions of the characters, the sequence of events, all of that has something unusual, it's not what a legit person likely would do. How do we know? We've seen legit things happen and we've seen scams happen, our experience tells us what to look for. You seem to lack that experience. As I said, I think you're the only victim in this case. I believe your intentions are honourable, but you screwed up big time here. It appears you let yourself be used by a known scammer, and appearance is everything in matter like this. Edit: Originally by: Ramingo you've already more than massacred my audit thread because of it. My personal policy on this is this: on MD I'll criticise as much as I like in whatever thread I like, on Sell Orders I leave threads as they are. MD is a discussion forum (with anyone who'd like to participate), Sell Orders is someone offering to sell/provide/scam something and all replies should be bids/offers/serious enquiries (as per the forum section rules). That's why I asked the questions about your investigation in your thread, since I don't have any doubt about what's going on in the thread on sell orders (it smells) but I was interested in your actions as a new auditor. Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 10:35:00 - [62] Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 10:37:43 Valid points, but as this was a special case I feel it is governed by special indicators: - Sales thread looked legitimate in the forum, except that the original owner used alts to up the price. * Why would he do that and then offer a buy-out with his own alt? - Transfer of isk according to time of sale, in addition to full transfer of remaining balance from Tirnuen to Cynara leaving an end balance of 0. - Transfer of isk from new owner's accounts to Tirnuen. - Transfer of isk from new owner to some of the victims of the previous owner's scams. * ESPECIALLY a transfer to someone that did not get scammed, this was before the audit, and should be something the previous owner would have known/not let himself get scammed out of a billion isk. Those exact factors led me to believe it was a legitimate (albeit I posted nothing is certain) transfer of ownership. Subsequently, after this whole discussion started, the new owner has made even more amends and forwarded me evemails from previous scam victims identified who thanked him for repaying him the isk. As such I don't think I'm a victim of the old/new owner, but rather the victim of some overzealous M&D people who just couldn't accept the fact that I stuck to what I was hired to do and didn't go above and beyond and discriminate against the contractor. Like I've repeated before, he wanted me to check for 2 things which I did and posted, nothing more nothing less. Furthermore the new owner has now already conducted at least 1 successful business of 1 billion isk, in addition to having compensated scam victims for almost the full amount that was scammed. I just don't see why I deserve all this criticism on a minor character audit. Is it because you're angry that I audited a scammer's account? At least he was willing to deal with it. On the other hand I'm sure there are dozens of Riethe alts that did also get audited and managed to get past the existing system. Auditors don't have all the tools we need, this is after all the internet and an internet game at that with lax rules and regulations. I did my job, things went well, nobody got scammed - in fact, because of my audit scam victims actually got their, or most of their, isk back. Now, I won't be doing audits like that in future, I'd much rather be dealing with auditing new and existing ventures for scam alerts and financial details, I learnt my lesson, but this kind of backlash for an innocent audit is rather disheartening. I didn't ask to be handed anything on a golden platter, I merely ask not to be torn to pieces over something as trivial as the last "audit".
Lord Arbalest Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.21 10:45:00 - [63] Edited by: Lord Arbalest on 21/08/2010 10:46:17 Edited by: Lord Arbalest on 21/08/2010 10:44:58 No audit is minor. As an auditor, accept you are going to be torn apart all the time - no one will ever praise you (unfortunately). If you are serious about becoming an Auditor. You will be criticised left right and centre. You will probably not deserve it, but, no one really cares about that. Get used to the fire. You seem to be treating this like a business, offering a service to a client (the person who is paying you) and only doing a job for them. That is not what an auditor is about, while, you need to manage a relationship with the person paying you, you have a duty to report to the public because it is the public who will use your findings. An auditor needs to have certain characteristics and abilities that aren't really 'learnable'. I think you need to gain a little experience before trying more audits. Look at past offerings, audits; read new offerings and participate in asking questions of the OP trying to figure out what he/she is about. You need to gain a good grasp of scams, how people can trick you, what you need to look for and how you can be tricked - otherwise, you are a liability to the public and are not functioning as an Auditor.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.08.21 11:00:00 - [64] I'll assume you're willing to learn, though you don't seem to be taking (sometimes harsh) criticism very well. Originally by: Ramingo Valid points, but as this was a special case I feel it is governed by special indicators: They're not special. Originally by: Ramingo - Sales thread looked legitimate in the forum, except that the original owner used alts to up the price. * Why would he do that and then offer a buy-out with his own alt? To make it seem like he sold the character. Originally by: Ramingo - Transfer of isk according to time of sale, in addition to full transfer of remaining balance from Tirnuen to Cynara leaving an end balance of 0. To make it seem like he sold the character. Originally by: Ramingo - Transfer of isk from new owner's accounts to Tirnuen. To make it seem like he sold the character. Originally by: Ramingo - Transfer of isk from new owner to some of the victims of the previous owner's scams. I read your post here as saying that he did not pay the victims, but someone else. Originally by: Ramingo * ESPECIALLY a transfer to someone that did not get scammed, this was before the audit, and should be something the previous owner would have known/not let himself get scammed out of a billion isk. More alts? Settling a debt? You don't know. Originally by: Ramingo Those exact factors led me to believe it was a legitimate (albeit I posted nothing is certain) transfer of ownership. You posted you're "highly confident", I'd say you were overconfident. This isn't particularly difficult to pull off, and it certainly isn't as elaborate as some other scams we've seen. Originally by: Ramingo Subsequently, after this whole discussion started, the new owner has made even more amends and forwarded me evemails from previous scam victims identified who thanked him for repaying him the isk. Have you checked the api to see if the payments actually were made? Have you talked to the people who allegedly sent the evemails? Once you've verified this is correct, would you assess it as the actions of a new owner who feels sorry for people who he didn't scam (why would he?) or as the actions of the old owner who's realising he isn't getting away with his scheme? Originally by: Ramingo As such I don't think I'm a victim of the old/new owner, People who are socially engineered almost never think they're a victim. Originally by: Ramingo but rather the victim of some overzealous M&D people who just couldn't accept the fact that I stuck to what I was hired to do and didn't go above and beyond and discriminate against the contractor. I just don't see why I deserve all this criticism on a minor character audit. Is it because you're angry that I audited a scammer's account? Actually I think the problem is that you have shown that you lack judgement and experience, and don't engage in critical thinking. Originally by: Ramingo I did my job Did you? See response to previous quote. Originally by: Ramingo I learnt my lesson, but this kind of backlash for an innocent audit is rather disheartening. I didn't ask to be handed anything on a golden platter, I merely ask not to be torn to pieces over something as trivial as the last "audit". Translation: "I think I learnt my lesson, but I didn't." Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.08.21 11:03:00 - [65] Originally by: Ramingo Valid points, but as this was a special case I feel ... I think I'm the victim of some overzealous M&D people ... I just don't see why I deserve all this criticism ... This kind of backlash for an innocent audit is rather disheartening. I merely ask not to be torn to pieces over something as trivial as the last "audit". You're still in denial, angry and trying to justify your inactions. MD does not do sugar-coated pills. And auditors are expected to be able to swallow arsenic and strychnine dosed bullets with aplomb. It is what it is. Deal, or move along.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.08.21 11:31:00 - [66] Edited by: Ramingo on 21/08/2010 11:30:50 Quote: They're not special. Special in that it wasn't a bond/loan/business audit, but merely a character audit and personal request. Quote: I read your post here as saying that he did not pay the victims, but someone else. After the audit he said he would not, but subsequently he did. Quote: Have you checked the api to see if the payments actually were made? Yes Quote: You're still in denial, angry and trying to justify your inactions. MD does not do sugar-coated pills. And auditors are expected to be able to swallow arsenic and strychnine dosed bullets with aplomb. It is what it is. Deal, or move along. Yes I'm annoyed that this has turned from a request from the owner into some public controversy because I decided to add it to my list of audits/make it public. Initially he didn't ask me to make the results public as they were for his information purposes only, but I figured it would be good publicity to have completed a 2nd "audit". Subsequently he has paid out more to scam victims/alleged ones than the scammer himself earned. As such I still stand by my stance that I made the right call and even though it COULD have been social engineering on his behalf, I absolutely do not think so. Likewise any business venture can get 100% green flags after having been audited independently by 2-3 auditors and the guy still decides to scam and makes off with the isk, because suddenly something changed in real life or he got high/drunk/lost his titan. Is it the auditor's fault? We do what we can with the tools that we have before us and I had no other way to ascertain it. You said I should not have taken the case to start with. Well, I did, and now I'm being *****ed at even though everything went well. Even if I were to look at my post as an outsider now I wouldn't hire myself given all the criticism present both warranted and unwarranted.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.08.21 12:01:00 - [67] Quote: No audit is minor. As an auditor, accept you are going to be torn apart all the time - no one will ever praise you (unfortunately). Lord Arbalest, sadly (for you) is right. That's also a reason why few to none wants to live in the cross fire like that. ROI sucks. Time committment sucks. "Rep" - for those who care about it - sucks and 5 years of flawless performance get easily destroyed in 10 minutes of a mistake. Quote: You seem to be treating this like a business, offering a service to a client (the person who is paying you) and only doing a job for them This is also true, Auditors in EvE who work on public audits are doing it with the MD public not for the proponents. You are not someone's paid PR. Also, finally, you'd have to start with 500M tranquil bonds audits to shape your bones, not with a muddy "no one touches it with a pole" affair. Quote: Subsequently he has paid out more to scam victims/alleged ones than the scammer himself earned Could you prove that he's not just doing washing a burned character? If I were a scammer, I'd gladly return a billion (aka investment) to a guy who I know I can use his new faith and scam 10B later. When there are character flippers you can expect scenarios of all sorts, including cross exchanging between accounts to show new and clean ownership and more. Quote: ... because suddenly something changed in real life or he got high/drunk/lost his titan. Is it the auditor's fault Due diligence is expected. In case of blatant scammers, if you can't PROVE something, you simply state: - how your limited EvE tools only let you prove <place here exact list of what you can PROVE> - that it's not an audit grade assessment but something done at best of what's possible <place here 40 tons of disclaimers to warn the public> Quote: Well, I did, and now I'm being ****ed at even though everything went well. Guess it's just tough luck! It's really like RL trading. Once I attended a trading course, and I blamed the teacher because I took a wrong trade given his "signal" to the students. His reply: "no one forced you to take that trade, you decided to take it at last, you pressed the trigger. If you thought it was imprudent, you should have not done it". Teached me a lesson. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read* http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.08.21 12:14:00 - [68] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Ramingo - Sales thread looked legitimate in the forum, except that the original owner used alts to up the price. * Why would he do that and then offer a buy-out with his own alt? To make it seem like he sold the character. Originally by: Ramingo - Transfer of isk according to time of sale, in addition to full transfer of remaining balance from Tirnuen to Cynara leaving an end balance of 0. To make it seem like he sold the character. This tactic here can and will be used to try to "clean" the rep of a character. The only way to know 100% if the character was indeed sold and transferred is to have CCP confirm that, which they will not!
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.08.21 14:43:00 - [69] Quote: overzealous M&D people Quote: M&D
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.08.21 16:09:00 - [70] The reason your under attack is: 1. You are totally new 2. You dealt with a scammer 3. You dealt with a character flipper more importantly 4. Most audits take days 5. Your audit took a few hours 6. You clearly didn't do enough research into the audit process 7. You didn't research the person you dealt with 8. You showed bad judgement on who you worked with for your first audit 9. It looks bad that you clearly contacted the audited party to further back you up in this thread. It looks like collusion. You have to remember audits usually help investors decide whether or not to invest in a new business. Auditors MAY have significant power in what they do so it is important they are impartial and do a great job. Auditors will get hammered (rightfully so) if they give an all clear to a character who then scams or businesses fail. You may be totally innocent but MD is about perception. If you want to become an auditor, first rule is NEVER, ever work with scharacters that have a scam history or a character seller.
Lucyna Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises	Posted - 2010.08.21 17:31:00 - [71] Well here's to hoping that Ramingo straightens up and can somehow regain his rep. Otherwise in the future I'll need another auditor
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.09.06 10:59:00 - [72] Edited by: Ramingo on 06/09/2010 11:02:33 Tirnuen's new owner still hasn't scammed 3 weeks after the audit, after having repaid a large sum to the previous owner's scam victims. As such I stand firmly by my statement that although my decision to audit the char may have been a bad one, my findings and conclusions weren't. Therefore, bump! Doing audits again. Edit: If I think it smells too fishy I reserve the right to refuse an audit.
Janya Rykayn	Posted - 2010.09.06 12:30:00 - [73] An auditor, motivated only by the hot, wild pleasure of conducting audits. When asked why he spends hours and hours auditing, the only reply: "Because it's there!"
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.06 13:04:00 - [74] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 06/09/2010 13:05:03 Originally by: Ramingo Tirnuen's new owner still hasn't scammed 3 weeks after the audit, after having repaid a large sum to the previous owner's scam victims. As such I stand firmly by my statement that although my decision to audit the char may have been a bad one, my findings and conclusions weren't. in your own best interest as an aspiring auditor you shouldn't tie your rep to the question of your clients scamming or not. Other people will already do that for you and that's bad enough
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.06 14:12:00 - [75] Originally by: Ramingo Edited by: Ramingo on 06/09/2010 11:02:33 Tirnuen's new owner still hasn't scammed 3 weeks after the audit, after having repaid a large sum to the previous owner's scam victims. As such I stand firmly by my statement that although my decision to audit the char may have been a bad one, my findings and conclusions weren't. Therefore, bump! Doing audits again. Edit: If I think it smells too fishy I reserve the right to refuse an audit. A couple of friendly tips. - Sharpen up your cunning. - Sharpen up your actions awareness. You cannot create a post like this. You just FOREVER tied yourself to that customer of yours to never scam or do anything shady. Now, I don't know you, but I'd be quite wary doing that, in EvE it WILL bite you back. It's just a matter of about when, not about if. You also shown you are still not up for going "real", I am sad because I am sincerely stuffed of being alone. This is a game, but we are not a joke. Put it firmly in your head. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Lecherito	Posted - 2010.09.06 14:47:00 - [76] My advice: Take everything VV tells you to heart. Everyone else can **** off. You should definitely stay in the business, it's an auditors market out there. -L
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.09.07 02:53:00 - [77] I should clarify. I didn't mean to say that he'd never scam. Just that so far he has shown no indications of having been the previous owner. Even a new owner can decide to scam at any random point in time, i.e. when he gets the next 1 billion. Either way, taking on a new audit of a 1 bill isk offering now. I'll see if I can find a method that's similar in style to the other auditors. Having some sort of official reporting style for audits would help to make it more accessible to new auditors, i.e. if they could just go down a checklist and then put their findings in a standardised template would be very much needed imo. VV, what would you say to creating an audit school, with your compensation being say 10% of the audit fees for managing it? Could help getting more auditors involved in M&D.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.07 08:48:00 - [78] Originally by: Ramingo Either way, taking on a new audit of a 1 bill isk offering now. I'll see if I can find a method that's similar in style to the other auditors. Having some sort of official reporting style for audits would help to make it more accessible to new auditors, i.e. if they could just go down a checklist and then put their findings in a standardised template would be very much needed imo. VV, what would you say to creating an audit school, with your compensation being say 10% of the audit fees for managing it? Could help getting more auditors involved in M&D. Sadly right yesterday had a potential new auditor asking me the same questions. I went on to show him some good examples and found out the web site with good and simple auditor content (Kazzac's) is gone. It looks like I'll have to punch some template together, my hideous lack of time will make this slow and painful I suggest for now you look at Kazuo Ishiguro's and Kazzac's audits like I did. My style is not appreciated by several people. But one thing is sure: you won't get a "checklist", exactly like a Michelangelo scholar does not get a copy and paste statue "ready in 5 minutes". Maybe some guidelines. The paperwork is the minimal and final part of an audit the audit is what happens before and that's as easy to teach as it's easy to teach an engineer how to trade in a boutique. Personality matters. Putting one self matters. The writings, even a monkey can make them. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Janya Rykayn	Posted - 2010.09.07 09:45:00 - [79] Quote: Subsequently he has paid out more to scam victims/alleged ones than the scammer himself earned. As such I still stand by my stance that I made the right call and even though it COULD have been social engineering on his behalf, I absolutely do not think so. What about this does not scream scam? I would be entirely unsurprised if the "auditor" turned out to be the alt of the scammer in question. Everything about this is fishy.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.09.07 10:22:00 - [80] Edited by: Ramingo on 07/09/2010 10:24:35 Right. That subject has been chewed out, time to move on. I don't scam, I make more than enough ISK with my FW missions. And anybody who has been in a corp with me knows how much I despise scammers, ever since goons pulled recruitment scam on me and took me for all my isk back when I was a newb. My own corp, Payable On Death, had a strict no-scams policy which was pretty much the only real rule there was, other than not shooting blues. Also, you have to be a bit of an idiot if you think a real scammer would refund his victim's isk...in order to do what? Scam again 2 weeks later? The nature of his work is that he never gets more than 2-3 bill isk at once due to alliance creation. In fact he should only get 1 bill isk as the highest attainable amount if clients leave the isk in the alliance wallet as opposed to sending it directly to him. So he rebuilds his rep, refunds 3 bill or so and then what? Makes off with 1-2 billion? Pure genius.
Dezolf Minmatar DAX Action Stance	Posted - 2010.09.07 10:58:00 - [81] Originally by: Ramingo So he rebuilds his rep, refunds 3 bill or so and then what? Then he goes higher for the next scam, and scams 5-6b, or whatever.
Ramingo Caldari Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.09.07 11:07:00 - [82] Edited by: Ramingo on 07/09/2010 11:09:36 Originally by: Dezolf Originally by: Ramingo So he rebuilds his rep, refunds 3 bill or so and then what? Then he goes higher for the next scam, and scams 5-6b, or whatever. Well he can't do that with the current business as corp/alliance creation works the following way: - Corp leaves 100 mill isk or however much it is in corp wallet, guy joins corp, becomes CEO, updates corp/takes isk out of wallet, leaves for next corp/alliance. - Alliance leaves 1 bill + fee in alliance wallet, guy joins alliance and creates it (I don't know how it works exactly but I did read about isk in wallet for creation). If he decides to run with the isk then he made a free 1 bill, but it's also evident in an auditor's logs if he did indeed scam or not. - He is physically limited from leaving corps/alliance with roles for 24 hours during which time the victims would have more than enough time to warn people about it on his thread, request audits, post screenshots, etc... Thus if anybody gets scammed for more than a bill by this guy then they should stay out of Jita b4 they lose it all... Edit: From here on out I'm going to refuse responding to anymore references to Tirnuen and his service. It's been going on for over 2 pages of my thread now and the only conclusive thing to come out of it was that it was a bad judgement call to "audit" him. I'd like to do some more proper audits, the thing I set out to do initially, rather than keep having to explain and defend myself weeks after this little side project which was supposed to be a mere confirmation of new ownership and victim-reimbursement.
Janya Rykayn	Posted - 2010.09.08 16:53:00 - [83] Quote: Also, you have to be a bit of an idiot if you think a real scammer would refund his victim's isk...in order to do what? Well, in order to scam. If you're not a scammer yourself, and in collusion with the scammers who you popped up just in time to audit, you are so naive that you simply don't make good auditor material. I just don't think you are cut out for the task. Even people who ARE cut out for the task don't enjoy it. Whether you are a scammer or a patsy, I wouldn't touch anything you had come anywhere near. I don't intend this to be rude. The rudeness you and others have correctly identified here comes from three things: * Legitimate concern about trust. * E-peen (Sarcastic basement dwellers failing at life and drawing satisfaction from being a bigshot of some kind in an MMO when in Real Life they're tech support making 25k if they're lucky). Much of this behavior is roleplay. * Rice bowl guarding. An old boy network colluding with each other to keep others from gaining any trust and establishing themselves. With you, most of the rudeness comes from the first two places. All in all, you need to be far more cynical and suspicious than you've shown yourself to be here. My guess is that you're a naive person wanting to roleplay an auditor. Either that or you're a scammer. After all there has to be some convincing motivation to put up with all the crap, right? All in all, not buying it.
Ramingo Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.09.09 10:25:00 - [84] I'd respond in depth but it's not worth the effort. I call it a little side project because it wasn't a real, full depth audit. Its objective was to find out who got scammed and if it appeared as though the guy was a new owner. I've repeated it so many times, you can argue about my responsibility to the M&D forum in doing a full audit on him but in fact I did what I was asked to do, presented those findings, case closed. I got all the flack mostly because of epeen, because people think scammers shouldn't be able to sell their chars, because they didn't like that I didn't do 1000% extra work when I never presented it as an audit and since then it's been going down. So basically, I don't care what you think or say about this subject because apparently I'm happy, the new owner is happy, and his new customers are also happy.
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.09.09 10:44:00 - [85] For an outsider, it is fascinating to observe how little time existing auditors spend on doing any audits, and how much time they spend trying to eliminate any new auditors that appear. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / Hydra Fund / LLSE Stock Market
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.09 11:16:00 - [86] I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices that and finds it interesting. One would almost think that it was because all of the established auditors were members of an in-group.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.09 11:51:00 - [87] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 09/09/2010 11:54:35 Originally by: Jion Tichy I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices that and finds it interesting. One would almost think that it was because all of the established auditors were members of an in-group. If you think there's one "MD elite" in-group you have to do much more reading on this forum. There are several different "groups" that you could recognize in this forum if you think it makes sense to classify ppl in this regard (but if that makes sense is a difficult question - some people have a lot of contact/dealings with each other in-game but don't share common opinions in MD discussions all that often, other people tend to support each other's POV on MD regularly but don't have any relation beyond that). However, VV has always tried to stay clear from these "in-groups" in so far as they do exist as far as possible (probably partly due to her fight against the privileges of the MD elite and partly due to being inadvertently grouped together with SCC circle of love when she was new to MD and subsequently catching some flag due to that). There are some characters in this forum whose word bears a lot more weight in practice than that of other ones but the assumption that they all belong to an in-group other than the community of semi-regular MD posters is erroneous. edit: rallying against the suspected privileges of the old "MD elite" is a common starting point among those who will eventually themselves be viewed as "elite" by newcomers.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.09 12:06:00 - [88] Quote: If you think there's one "MD elite" in-group you have to do much more reading on this forum. You should read my post again. There is a difference between "an" and "the." Quote: and better try to stick to either having a thought or not thinking about that topic - almost thinking only gives you a headache. We're just sharing thoughts here. Personally, I think for a living and it doesn't give me a headache at all. Collusion, metacollusion and intermittent collusion are very complex topics and I don't deal in black and white-- In a non-binary universe, shades of grey are the only kinds of thoughts that make sense.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.09 12:16:00 - [89] Quote: For an outsider, it is fascinating to observe how little time existing auditors spend on doing any audits, and how much time they spend trying to eliminate any new auditors that appear. It's no different than seeing existing investors scrutinize investees. There's no free lunch. Also, those unable to discern between a stern approach leaving a trail of tips and hints behind vs peregrine flaming show they don't have the inquisitive mind needed for the job. Finally, I'd be quite disappointed seeing infamous buffoons sharing the same profession that had exponents like Shar, Kazuo Ishiguro, Kazzac Elentria. (Notice the above is meant as example not at this specific thread) Quote: However, VV has always tried to stay clear from these "in-groups" in so far as they do exist as far as possible (probably partly due to her fight against the privileges of the MD elite and partly due to being inadvertently grouped together with SCC circle of love when she was new to MD and subsequently catching some flag due to that). Yes, indeed I was quite baffled being called "scammer's alt" or "part of SCC circle jerk". I happen to think on my own even if this usually costs me dearly and I suppose it makes me quite impopular. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.09 12:17:00 - [90] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 09/09/2010 12:19:24 Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 09/09/2010 12:19:01 Originally by: Jion Tichy We're just sharing thoughts here. Personally, I think for a living and it doesn't give me a headache at all. Collusion, metacollusion and intermittent collusion are very complex topics and I don't deal in black and white-- In a non-binary universe, shades of grey are the only kinds of thoughts that make sense. There's a difference between "One would almost think..." and "I wonder if..." - the second makes sense, the first doesn't (and signals not even being ready to accept responsibility for the following thought by sticking to the impersonal "one"). And all auditors are not member of an in-group. Maybe your post did not quite say what you meant to say. edit: Quote: However, VV has always tried to stay clear from these "in-groups" in so far as they do exist as far as possible (probably partly due to her fight against the privileges of the MD elite and partly due to being inadvertently grouped together with SCC circle of love when she was new to MD and subsequently catching some flag due to that). omg my spelling sucks - already too much caffeine
Cista2 Hydra Investment Fund	Posted - 2010.09.09 13:50:00 - [91] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha It's no different than seeing existing investors scrutinize investees. Do you really mean what you are saying here? Investors scrutinise investees because they potentially will put money on the line. They will have a direct business association. If you feel there is a business aspect for you in scrutinising new auditors, the only business aspect I can imagine is that they will be competing with you for isk. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / Hydra Fund / LLSE Stock Market
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.09 14:03:00 - [92] Quote: If you feel there is a business aspect for you in scrutinising new auditors, the only business aspect I can imagine is that they will be competing with you for isk. And the fact that there's comparatively not very much isk in auditing makes me wonder. VV is also by far not the most aggressive in this regard. I think the point has been made and it's probably counterproductive to belabor it further.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.09 14:18:00 - [93] Quote: If you feel there is a business aspect for you in scrutinising new auditors, the only business aspect I can imagine is that they will be competing with you for isk. They can take all the customers and isk they want for what I care, even my ones. The only business aspect I care for, is not to have horrible runts throwing *** on the profession I love. There are enough detractors of it already. Quote:** VV is also by far not the most aggressive in this regard. Yeah, don't confuse the fact I write bad English and look like (and probably am) a terrible douche bag. I don't mean to be nasty, even if I am :S - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dzil Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.09 18:08:00 - [94] Originally by: Cista2 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha It's no different than seeing existing investors scrutinize investees. Do you really mean what you are saying here? Investors scrutinise investees because they potentially will put money on the line. They will have a direct business association. If you feel there is a business aspect for you in scrutinising new auditors, the only business aspect I can imagine is that they will be competing with you for isk. Consider the bashing your own investment bank launch received, arriving on the coat tails of ebank's fiasco, which behind that are the ashes of many other former, failed banks. Auditing runs into the same problem: if enough auditors miss warning signs they should be pointing out, or flat out turn up supporting scammers, it brings the entire profession into doubt. Therefore the existing craftsman form a pseudo-guild of sorts, challenging newcomers to prove a bare minimum of competency and integrity before being recognized as employable members of the profession. Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :)
Commander Godsmack	Posted - 2010.09.09 18:24:00 - [95] Originally by: Ramingo Edited by: Ramingo on 19/08/2010 19:44:46 Edited by: Ramingo on 19/08/2010 19:43:22 I did a search to find out about the current auditor program, if any, and the only post I found was locked due to inactivity. Since I can't play the game at work, but tend to have a lot of spare time, I'm offering my services as auditor. I doubt it matters, but I also used to work as Internal Auditor for a European stock exchange. When is an audit required? - Whenever there is an issue of trust and you'd like someone to eliminate indicators of potential scams. - Whenever there is an issue of competence and you'd like to get an analysis of empirical performance. - When a somewhat established trader/corporation seeks more funds than previously entrusted with. - When you simply want an objective and unbiased second opinion to put your suspicions to rest (or confirm them, and warn you of any potential threats). Anyway, what I will do: - Check wallet transactions - Check assets - Verify trading history/ profit making potential - Check contract history - Find characters traded officially, and any potential alts - Check employment history/ do a background check if neccessary - Check forum activity - Use my best judgement to deliver an objective report - I will and most likely can not use any of the information gained to my advantage, as I'm currently a 100% pure FW PvPer and mission runner (have been for over a year now) If you're interested in getting a character or corporation audit done, leave a message here or eve-mail me in game on Ramingo if you want the audit to be confidential. Audits completed: ISKBE Tirnuen's Corporation and Alliance Creation Service Scam
Anas Damona The Orthography Commandos	Posted - 2010.09.09 19:02:00 - [96] I'm looking for an auditor for my (embryonic) IPO project, I'll contact you soon.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 03:20:00 - [97] bump
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.19 06:48:00 - [98] Back to the first project - bump!
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.19 06:58:00 - [99] Originally by: Ramingo Back to the first project - bump! For the convenience of new readers, here's a link to the second project: original / archive (EVE-search). Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users!
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.19 07:55:00 - [100] Any particular reason you linked to the failed IPO, or just randomness?
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.19 08:08:00 - [101] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 19/09/2010 08:09:59 Originally by: Ramingo Any particular reason you linked to the failed IPO, or just randomness? possible reasons: * you referred to this as the "first project", people might just want to know what the second project was * you made some statements regarding the usefulness of audits (or rather the lack thereof) which (at least imo) are relevant to this thread. You offer a service that pays you extremely bad and is next to useless in your own opinion - that's certainly a good thing to know for your potential clients.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.19 08:35:00 - [102] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 19/09/2010 08:09:59 Originally by: Ramingo Any particular reason you linked to the failed IPO, or just randomness? possible reasons: * you referred to this as the "first project", people might just want to know what the second project was * you made some statements regarding the usefulness of audits (or rather the lack thereof) which (at least imo) are relevant to this thread. You offer a service that pays you extremely bad and is next to useless in your own opinion - that's certainly a good thing to know for your potential clients. Your second statement is a misstatement. I said in the case of my IPO an audit isn't useful because I a) didn't have any verifiable trading history and b) my trades would have been conducted via contracts (I didn't post the latter in the original IPO as it would have helped narrow down the market I was going to manipulate). Successful audits don't guarantee a successful bond/offering. They do the following: - Background check of the issuer: What are his alts, did he ever scam, what kind of posting style does he have, etc... - Verification of profitability: If it's not a completely new trader (a risk in itself which would be pointed out) then there should be statistics available to see how active the issuer trades, what his profitability is, where he does most of his trades (0.0 or high sec), etc.. - Give a neutral overall assessment of the general risk related to the offering, excluding the risk of scamming as anyone can decide to scam, even with a profitable business.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.19 12:20:00 - [103] Originally by: Ramingo Any particular reason you linked to the failed IPO, or just randomness? Since you said "Back to the first project", readers might wonder what the second project was. Since this is the internet, a simple hyperlink might satisfy the curiosity of all future readers, no matter how far in the future it is. As such, my post should be seen as a service to all future readers, saving them time searching for the 'second project'. Any particular reason you wouldn't want a link to the failed IPO, or just randomness? Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users!
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.19 14:43:00 - [104] Would a business in the real world want its failed projects advertised to its customers?
Michela Bosun Shipyards	Posted - 2010.09.19 16:03:00 - [105] Originally by: Ramingo Would a business in the real world want its failed projects advertised to its customers? Businesses trying to actually gain the public trust try to be as transparent as possible.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.19 16:16:00 - [106] Originally by: Ramingo Would a business in the real world want its failed projects advertised to its customers? Would you trust anyone who tried to cover up and hide important information from you?
Scott McClellan Forum Posters Anonymous	Posted - 2010.09.20 01:03:00 - [107] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Ramingo Would a business in the real world want its failed projects advertised to its customers? Would you trust anyone who tried to cover up and hide important information from you? Well, not if they failed.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.20 04:55:00 - [108] Big difference between covering something up and simply not wanting to link the two unrelated ventures.
My Entity Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2010.09.20 05:04:00 - [109] I am so sorry for coming to your thread and butchering it again, but I just had to ask.... Where do you get the audacity to provide audit service while you won't even accept auditing for your own investment? You even stated that auditing does not add value. At least tobacco companies claimed for decades that their products are harmless. I suggest you just create another alt and start from the scratch.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.20 05:29:00 - [110] Originally by: My Entity I am so sorry for coming to your thread and butchering it again, but I just had to ask.... Where do you get the audacity to provide audit service while you won't even accept auditing for your own investment? You even stated that auditing does not add value. At least tobacco companies claimed for decades that their products are harmless. I suggest you just create another alt and start from the scratch. Thanks for trying to butcher it again. Sadly you're either a troll, an idiot or simply can't read. I challenge you to find a quote where I say I don't accept audits for my own investment or that it does not add value. What I specifically said was that I was happy to let myself be audited, and I would be happy to tell VV about the entire business. That means audited by anyone, but the inner workings of the plan only shared with VV. I then went on to state that due to my not having a trading performance that can be analysed, an audit wouldn't really help much other than to confirm my alts and that they've never scammed before.
Mishkaii	Posted - 2010.09.20 05:30:00 - [111] He just stated what is plainly obvious: Audits do not prevent anyone from scamming nor do they indicate if they'll scam. At best they give a guide of whether the proposed goal is attainable. His failure to reach his investments goal is not in any way related to his ability to provide audits, either. If Audits are worthless then that is a failure in and of themselves, in no way linked to him and which would mean that either his service or say VV's would be equally worthless, its just he says it out front and VV says in the T4U is a scam thread that she would somehow have prevented it if Bad Bobby woulda audited, which is lulz.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.20 07:48:00 - [112] Quote: VV says in the T4U is a scam thread that she would somehow have prevented it if Bad Bobby woulda audited, which is lulz. I don't think I have said that. IIRC I said an audit would have spotted certain anomalies (and listed some). Once spotted anomalies in such a "delicate" situation of an huge IPO with super-low interest, it'd pique investors attention and questions enough to be a good grief for the scam-in-fieri. This is not the Holy Grail but certainly it would have been better than just supinely and passively awaiting for the thing to happen. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.22 07:45:00 - [113] bump!
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.25 07:59:00 - [114] Bump - plenty of time to do audits while RL work is slow!
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.10.25 13:08:00 - [115] Bump, available again for audits. Post here or contact me ingame on Ramingo/Tatal Zmeu/Diana Devil if you'd like to get an audit done.
Calarin The Knights Templar R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.10.25 16:55:00 - [116] After reading all the criticism, I will add this bit: Let me reference the thread where I bought a char here. in particular: Quote: Your character balalor has been transferred from account xxxxx to account Txxxxx2 Your transaction reference number is: 9599093 Quote: confirm successful transfer has occurred. Your client's char thread has no transaction number and no confirmation. With all the history associated with both the current/old whatever owners, this SHOULD be something to point out in your audit report (among everything else that has been brought up).

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