Hulks aren't meant for soloing. Use a mackinaw, which requires less crystals.

In a hulk, you can just refit off the orca.

Hulks aren't meant for soloing. Use a mackinaw, which requires less crystals.

In a hulk, you can just refit off the orca.

Its not about what we think CCP ment with what they are giving is, its what exactly CCP thought they were accomplishing.

IMO, the idea behind such a small cargohold is to prevent miners from equipping cargo rigs and expanded cargoholds, which in the end makes ganking that much easier, since they reduce total armor and total hull hitpoints.

It does seem like CCP is doing some serious hand holding. It takes away the ability for idiots to make idiot fits.

no you can't! my alt can't see in the corp hangar of my main's orca. even worse if you're in an npc corp because you can't even get roles to alleviate this problem.

even worse on multi-corp ops.

no you can't! my alt can't see in the corp hangar of my main's orca. even worse if you're in an npc corp because you can't even get roles to alleviate this problem.

even worse on multi-corp ops.

3. Is there any chance that the cargo space on the Barges and Exhumers might be increased before these changes go live? Most Hulk pilots would probably be happy to give up space in the ore bay to get more room for crystals, especially those who mine in null sec.

4. Is there any chance that the mining crystals will be shrunk from 50 m3 to something more in line with combat laser crystals?

so why does the covetor still have a 500m3 cargo bay?

Right-click, configure ship, allow fleet access...

Check it in tomorrow's build and see if you feel differently

hmm didn't realise that was there. thanks.
still doesn't really solve the issue though since you're not going to have a handful of hulks all anchored on an orca... you're just asking to be smartbombed. etc.

considering there's never been an issue with us carrying crystals before i don't see why ccp are so insistant on making it an issue now.

Ohnoes, CCP buffed our ship to be basicly ungankable but now they want us to move to an Orca to get extra crystals, ze horror!!

Check it in tomorrow's build and see if you feel differently

i both love you for the good news, and hate you for being so vague as to say "wait and see".

hmm didn't realise that was there. thanks.
still doesn't really solve the issue though since you're not going to have a handful of hulks all anchored on an orca... you're just asking to be smartbombed. etc.

considering there's never been an issue with us carrying crystals before i don't see why ccp are so insistant on making it an issue now.

The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting on the forums basing their opinions of numbers that they have no source for and screenshots that provide little context.


(Also I don't know what they are)

The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting on the forums basing their opinions of numbers that they have no source for and screenshots that provide little context.


(Also I don't know what they are)

but the sisi mirror is quite old and i'm missing things like exhumer V and t2 drones and all that jazz. :(

isn't the hulk supposed to be used in fleet ops? not solo, you're doing it wrong. get the other guys to carry your crystal

isn't the hulk supposed to be used in fleet ops? not solo, you're doing it wrong. get the other guys to carry your crystal

Sorry to tell you, after checking on Sisi the changes for Hulk, even with Fleet support they absolutely suck in Comparision to the new Inthroned Best Mining Exhumer which will be the Mack, After have checked the stats for a while with and without using Orca support letting doing some friends the maths, it pretty seems if the current changes go live including the ressists decrease to 5% per skilllevel the hulk isn't worth anymore training or learning for.

The absolute negative impact isnt the lack of Cargo space this easily can get preventet by having a Orca carrying the Crystals for you needed. but the most problem and worsest is, The Yield even if tanked base yield in Comparision Mackinaw 310% against Hulk 390%.

So...80% difference..i'd say this is laughable if you take the difference in place about the Defense, Mackinaw is at least able t get 45k EHP with MLU's fitted, Hulk only about 29k EHP with NONE.....i repeat NON MLU fitted.

So this numbers in mind, Technically the Age of Hulks is over with those Changes going live at the 8th of August......may the Hulk rest in Peace or in Latin.

Resquiscant in Pace....Here lies the Hulk....Died cause of promissed changes from CCP but got Nerfed to dead instead.

Sincerly

Carola Kessler

not because of some dumb finger-flipping at purposedly created no skill time sinks..

You do know that 20k ehp is enough to stop a solo cat gank?. You do know that these changes only change the Ship. not the playstyle? It still remains a fact. Yes that word Fact. That using all the relevant advice found on these very forums will still remain applicable. A hulk in the hands of a true mining warrior. that knows his boat, his surrounding, actually takes care to keep his ship safe. will be max yielding, in relative safety



o7

What happened to that partial mirroring of skills from TQ to Sisi? I remember being really excited because I'm lazy and would only have to train on 1 set of accounts. It sorta fell off the face of the earth which I suppose means the Devs are working on it and it will be out SoonTM. Kinda like how the old API keys will stop working SoonTM :D

This is just plain silly.

You can only mine 3 rocks at a time. You have space for 3 spare crystals and 3 other crystals if the rocks you mine run out. Changing out and replacing missing crystals take how long? now consider how long 9 crystal will last you. Solo or in a Fleet this should never be a problem. Seriously people should think about things, before they whine


o7

You talk about SOLO gank, i'm referring to Gangganks, which with first changes brougth on Sisi the Hulk eventually could survive properly so the gankers would have to bring in more Firepower like as BC's and stuff, with the changes now, again its like as current closely, yes a single Cata can still gank then a Hulk....and YES those which are fitting a Max Cargo / YIeld fit will die within seconds.... .

Whatever....its like talking to a wall, most Miners can't change and wringe their head around, to acomplish the fact Having a Suvived Hulk doesn't need to repleaced while a Max yield esploded Hulk need to get replaced to raising costs...blaah blubb...*shrughs and leaves thread shaking her head in Frustration*

Sincerly

Carola Kessler

if you dislike these why are you mining

Its not about what we think CCP ment with what they are giving is, its what exactly CCP thought they were accomplishing.
More industrial usage, more orca support, they forgot they made crystals so large, whatever it might be.

Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.

Today it's not a crime nor an exploit to sacrifice cargo hold to bring more crystals if one wants to.
Today if you want to escape Hulkageddon and do say a large grav site (i.e. very often) you get more than 3 minerals.
Today if you want to mine a L3-L4 mission you have to go 50-80km inside it, it's long to make that Orca get to you with new crystals over there with its awesome turtle speed.

as plainly stated that hulks are intended for fleet ops.

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890



CCP has plainly stated that hulks are intended for fleet ops.

The Yield even if tanked base yield in Comparision Mackinaw 310% against Hulk 390%.

Yet they have **** mechanics for multi corp fleets beyond just cargo hauling. Which is still a ammo problem.

CCP has plainly stated that hulks are intended for fleet ops.

Chrystals are being halfed is size per people in the know. Unless they make a diffrent change to fix the issue.

So soon most of what you pilots are talking about will be a mute point.

do the maths, the ore bay isn't identical to it's current cargo hold. that statement is as trust worthy as a convicted criminal asking where you keep your silverware.

You completely missed the point of that post. The cargo hold size is completely irrelevant to the conversation that was being had.

CCP WHAY U NURF HULK??!!

Hand some EVE "players" salvation and a major buff on a silver platter and they'll still be whining up a storm over minor details of inconvenience.

I don't really see the problem. You can drop ore directly into the orca's corp hangar, and if you spend a set of crystals the orca can jettison a set to replace it.

The orca corp hangar problem is a completely separate issue from what's being talked about here. If it's not functioning properly as a support vessel, report that as a problem with the orca, NOT the hulk.

I agree on some points with you. But still you can only use 3 crystals at a time. Those crystal (if you're not dense) will last longer that it takes to fill several orca's let alone an Exhumer. It's called adaption. I very rarely take Crystals with me. I have fleet support. I have multi corp fleet support, and have NEVER thats right NEVER had a problem with no crystals in my cargo hold.


o7

They're complaining because the highest-yield miner in the game isn't going to be built as a tanky solo miner.

It serves to illustrate the utter lack of imagination that these carebears have. CCP is handing them the ability to choose between optimal yield, optimal tank, or the ability to solo mine with a decent tank and solid yield. They're complaining because the highest-yield miner in the game isn't going to be built as a tanky solo miner.

I don't really see the problem. You can drop ore directly into the orca's corp hangar, and if you spend a set of crystals the orca can jettison a set to replace it.

The orca corp hangar problem is a completely separate issue from what's being talked about here. If it's not functioning properly as a support vessel, report that as a problem with the orca, NOT the hulk.

The highest yield miner in game has to have a competitive yield advantage (duh!).
The more you make achieving that yield cumbersome, the more they have to overbuff that ship to make it appetible more than the zero drawbacks alternatives.

Hulk should have the least "stops" and micromanagement so its performance is fully used. The other ships should have that factors to slow them down instead.

The Orca works well enough.

What we have today, however, is that we have many choices of fleet "mining doctrines" (like PvP fleets have), that after the patch will be squashed.

IE today it's a viable choice to keep Orcas away from miners, it counters the typical "hey let's go smartbomb the bunch" effect.
Unless Orcas will be added the ability to "throw" (reverse tractor) crystals to Hulks, this tactic is over.

Today it's a viable choice to drop 3-4 Hulks in a deadspace pocket and the Orca tractors cans from the maximum distance (roids tend to be 50-80Km from warp in).

After the patch you can't, as the Orca would have to travel and carry the crystals all over the pocket.

IE today it's a viable choice to keep Orcas away from miners, it counters the typical "hey let's go smartbomb the bunch" effect.
Unless Orcas will be added the ability to "throw" (reverse tractor) crystals to Hulks, this tactic is over.

no we aren't.

Warp to celestial(after aligning),warp to Orca, (align to celstial on contact), warp to celestial, warp to rock. what 2 minutes? in every 2-3 hours?



o7

Or a guy in a frigate could shuttle over a crystal set.

Again: the problem here is a lack of imagination.

For that matter, just how many sets of cyrstals are you going to burn through in that deadspace pocket, that you can't load up before the op and not need to resupply?

Works great in deadspace pockets.

I still don't understand where you're claiming the stops are. The hulk mines, dumps ore into the orca (or jetcans it to be tractored) and then keeps mining. If it burns through all its spare sets of crystals, a hauler or the orca brings it more. What exactly is stopping the hulk from achieving maximum yield?

So the Mackinaw gets just under 80% the yield of a Hulk. Those people who can properly defend their mining ops will enjoy a 20% higher yield per miner than those who think the best way to mine is to sit in an unsecured belt in highsec.

Welcome to balance. You want top yield, you give up tank and need a hauler.

Who is going to fly the frigate:

- The guy in the Orca, removing buffs from everybody.

- The guys in the Hulks, factually making 1 of them far less efficient than a Mack and (for deadspace pockets) having to run again 80 km inside?


Stop assuming everybody can always fly 20 men fleets with all the bells and whistles. It only empowers blobbers again and again, in a game already suffering from over-blobbing.

Fleet = 2 people upwards.
I can understand Hulks catering from Orca "worthy" fleets only and upwards but then it has to work with setups involving Orca + 3 Hulks upwards not just when you have abundant "no doers" paying a subscription just to sit idle somewhere waiting to deliver crystals.

Also, part of the efficiency is also in the number of accounts.
If you have to use say Orca + 3 Hulks + frigate vs Orca + 4 Hulks, you just lost up to 20% of efficiency.
[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha]Fleet at this point would be better using a Mack.

The problem is not "burning through" a set of crystals. As others have noted, that happens very rarely. But what happens much more frequently is that the miner needs to switch from one ore type to another. Maybe the Hemorphite rock is exhausted, and the only other thing in reach is Gneiss. If you don't have Gniess crystals onboard, you have to stop mining, warp back to the station, drop off the Hemorphite crystals, pick up the Gneiss ones, and warp back to the grav site. Even if there is an Orca that holds every crystal in the game, it's probably a good 40-50 km away, delivering crystals for some other guy.

I'll grant that this change could force miners to plan out what they are going to mine, but those plans often break down when you land in the belt, see what's actually close enough to mine, and as other people mine and pop the thing that you were planning on hitting next.

Uhmmm...How the **** will you properly defend a Mining ops with Hulks having a Underestimated defense?

Look at this cenario.......5 Hulks ( maybe half Yield half tank fitted With Orca support even Shield Harmonizing II Supported ) ....Sitting in belt best allready near / close below the Roid spreadline Orcas relatively Close to them to catch Ore and hand out Crystals if needed ( Each partitioning Corp needs a own Orca to give instant access to Crystals [ this relays on Mining ops from Alliances with certain Corps partitioning in the Mining ops] closely together to fullfill the job ) So....Cloaky Cov ops Target pointer warps in...Bookmarks the best warpinpoint for the gankers + - 1000 meters, A few minutes later a pair of lets say 2 or 3 Smartbomb fitted BC's warps in supported by 3 Catalysts giving firepower where needed and you'll see a big Killmail coming worth about 2 - 4 Billions ISK and nobody really nobody even a guard support can do against it Even Sebo Nado's can't fire until the attackers are all flashy red and this can take cause of Server delay sometimes up to 5 or more seconds which are really enough for the Smarties to get another Cycle out while Concord arrives.

So, that about Hulks need to get protection, and stuff, Think about it...relatively less effort for the gankers if they do and act properly and getting a Killmail worth of Billions.

Sincerly

Carola Kessler

Uhmmm...How the **** will you properly defend a Mining ops with Hulks having a Underestimated defense?

Uhmmm...How the **** will you properly defend a Mining ops with Hulks having a Underestimated defense?

Look at this cenario.......5 Hulks ( maybe half Yield half tank fitted With Orca support even Shield Harmonizing II Supported ) ....Sitting in belt best allready near / close below the Roid spreadline Orcas relatively Close to them to catch Ore and hand out Crystals if needed ( Each partitioning Corp needs a own Orca to give instant access to Crystals [ this relays on Mining ops from Alliances with certain Corps partitioning in the Mining ops] closely together to fullfill the job ) So....Cloaky Cov ops Target pointer warps in...Bookmarks the best warpinpoint for the gankers + - 1000 meters, A few minutes later a pair of lets say 2 or 3 Smartbomb fitted BC's warps in supported by 3 Catalysts giving firepower where needed and you'll see a big Killmail coming worth about 2 - 4 Billions ISK and nobody really nobody even a guard support can do against it Even Sebo Nado's can't fire until the attackers are all flashy red and this can take cause of Server delay sometimes up to 5 or more seconds which are really enough for the Smarties to get another Cycle out while Concord arrives.

So, that about Hulks need to get protection, and stuff, Think about it...relatively less effort for the gankers if they do and act properly and getting a Killmail worth of Billions.

Who is going to fly the frigate:

- The guy in the Orca, removing buffs from everybody.

- The guys in the Hulks, factually making 1 of them far less efficient than a Mack and (for deadspace pockets) having to run again 80 km inside?

The new player who can't really do anything else and we are meant to be helping get established easier perhaps?

The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting on the forums basing their opinions of numbers that they have no source for and screenshots that provide little context.


(Also I don't know what they are)

Seems like most people are fine with the changes, other than Vaerah

Oh noes, but that would mean we'd have to talk to other people, rather than using our fleet of alts to mine a belt.

Who is going to fly the frigate:

- The guy in the Orca, removing buffs from everybody.

- The guys in the Hulks, factually making 1 of them far less efficient than a Mack and (for deadspace pockets) having to run again 80 km inside?


Stop assuming everybody can always fly 20 men fleets with all the bells and whistles. It only empowers blobbers again and again, in a game already suffering from over-blobbing.

Fleet = 2 people upwards.
I can understand Hulks catering from Orca "worthy" fleets only and upwards but then it has to work with setups involving Orca + 3 Hulks upwards not just when you have abundant "no doers" paying a subscription just to sit idle somewhere waiting to deliver crystals.

Also, part of the efficiency is also in the number of accounts.
If you have to use say Orca + 3 Hulks + frigate vs Orca + 4 Hulks, you just lost up to 20% of efficiency.
Fleet at this point would be better using a Mack.

HTFU and stop complaining about having to make friends in a social game.

HTFU and stop complaining about having to make friends in a social game.

My point is: today we have choices even within the Hulks route. Choices are good.

What you and the other blobbers want is some crap canned WoW-esque 1 way to play and the rest is verboten.
Sorry I am for freedom of choices, I prefer having no single change than a buff that corrals gameplay in 1 canned direction.

What you and the other blobbers want is some crap canned WoW-esque 1 way to play and the rest is verboten.
Sorry I am for freedom of choices, I prefer having no single change than a buff that corrals gameplay in 1 canned direction.

In the Hulk you really do not need to store that many crystals. A couple of spares for the ore you are mining, and 4 or 5 for the next ore you are going to mine. Once you move to the new ore you need to off load the old crystals and get a few new ones for the next ore type. If you are in a fleet with orca or hauler support you can get the new crystals from those haulers or orca. You do that in the middle of a mining cycle so you got plenty of time. If you use a jet can, the orca or hauler pickes up the old ones from the can and drops the new ones in. With an orca, you can use the corp hangar. If you are solo, you will be docking alot, and that gives you a chance to get crystals.

Having a bigger cargo is thus just a convenience, not a show stopper. That said, I would like convenience of a 500 cu m hold on the Hulk too, but can live with a 350 cu m hold and 25 cu m crystals ( room for 13 ).

BTW, everyone knows that you can drag a crystal straight from an orca corp hangar to the miner, with no need to first put it in your hold?

It's hard to take you serious when we're talking about MINING, and having choices. The only choice I see with mining is which type of rock do you feel like shooting today.

Those like me did not need Hulks to "improve" or "be boosted", we mostly mine during Hulkageddons and defend my / ourselves. Only annoying thing was the lack of options (yes I really love options) about fine tuning yield vs tank but it was not a killer.

So the real problem is that they are giving you more options, but you don't want to use any of those other options, you want to keep doing the same thing you have been doing without CCP mucking it up.

That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.

Just reduce the size of these things and be done with it.

Maybe because I am the only voice talking for those who won't field 20+ ships but for the majority who field 5-8?

I don't see how having somebody decide how much cargo hold or how much crystals hold (and this is fixed for all the ships) you can have may be defined as "more options". Cargo hold is not so important but crystals freedom is.
I don't see what absolute game breaking disaster happens if you are able to carry the crystals you could today.

That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.

If you can't deal with the changes to the Hulk (like most will adapt to), then switch to the Mackinaw and use 3x MLU IIs. After all, it's all about options, and having more choices, right?

If there is no hauler, then the hulk will be warping back and forth to drop off ore. You can get the next set of crystals on one of those trips. The cargo is plenty big enough to hold the crystals for the 6 minutes of mining it takes to fill the ore hold.

If you have the orca visit the belt once every hour or so to pick up jet cans, it can drop off an hours worth of crystals in the jet can on each trip. The will be, what, 8 crystals at most? Those will all fit in the hulk cargo.

Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

In fact, if you can't get Rorq/Orca support, then maybe the Hulk is the wrong tool to begin with. This, too, is as it should be.

Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

In fact, if you can't get Rorq/Orca support, then maybe the Hulk is the wrong tool to begin with. This, too, is as it should be.

Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

In fact, if you can't get Rorq/Orca support, then maybe the Hulk is the wrong tool to begin with. This, too, is as it should be.

but if you have to have some one constantly shuttling crystals back and forth that's one less mining ship, hence you'd be better off with every one in mackinaws which kinda defeats the point?

Quit abusing your mining crystals, they shouldn't be handled so roughly (i.e. don't slam them on your map chart table so hard). Else, 'constantly' shuttling crystals back and fort' is either gross exaggeration or really, really poor planning. T2 crystals last at LEAST a couple hours. Stop making excuses for poor planning and get out there and mine, Eve needs you.

yep, it might last a few hours but that arkonor crystal ain't gonna mine bistot.

if one crystal mined every ore then you *might* have a point.

when I mine, I want the full selection of crystals I currently enjoy. There simply is no sound reason to limit the choices of crystals you can bring.

Thank you Tippia, again, the voice of reason.

Additionally, if he's mining with no Orca/Rorqual support in the wilds of nullsec or lowsec, does he have at least a hauler? Crystals brought by a hauler are like mana from heaven. If he isn't then he's docking somewhere, where he could grab more.

I don't care how you want to mine. I do care about (and enjoy) the idea that thoughtlessness and poor decision-making gets punished.

If you're solo, decide what you're going after next and pick up the appropriate selection of crystals

Hauling involves tractor beams, and not very frequently, the timing of rocks depleting or crystals going usually do not coincide with this task. Tractor beams are not very effective at pushing stuff around either.

In any case, why is your method of mining the way everyone else in the game should play by?

Hauling involves tractor beams, and not very frequently, the timing of rocks depleting or crystals going usually do not coincide with this task. Tractor beams are not very effective at pushing stuff around either. And we're not competent pilots enough in our haulers to hit the mark on the jet cans 9 times out of 10.

In any case, why is my hard-headness any of your business? I want what I want and I'm going to whine until I get it, so there.

and why would it be so bad for me to be able to warp in to a belt, equip crystals for whatever asteroids are left after i get home from doing whatever i was doing that day and beginning to mine rather than having to warp there, check what's left, warp back, get crystals, warp to the belt again etc.

honestly; what is being broken by just letting us carry the crystals, like we can now?

Poor decision making is not punished by WoW-canning a mechanism to forbid it.

and why would it be so bad for me to be able to warp in to a belt, equip crystals for whatever asteroids are left after i get home from doing whatever i was doing that day and beginning to mine rather than having to warp there, check what's left, warp back, get crystals, warp to the belt again etc.

You don't know but T20 and sub cap killing Titans fits are NOTHING compared to how absolutely game breaking is being able to bring the crystals you need. You'll be lucky you don't get a RL lawsuit for your felony even just at thinking that.


I am really curious to see what will happen when CCP will start nerfing Drakes and Tengus. I mean, if letting miners use crystals has such a nuclear fallout imagine when they will touch "real ships for the Real And Only Players".

i was informed that the drake "nerf" ain't that bad.

GǪand if ever single miner had to mine every single ore in the belt in one go, it would be a problem. Luckily, that's not necessary. At some point the ore has to be picked and and delivered to a storage spot. That delivery can very easily be combined with a return-delivery of crystal to fit the needs of the next session.

If you're solo, decide what you're going after next and pick up the appropriate selection of crystals from the sixty-five thousand different combinations a Hulk will be able to carry (more if they adjust the sizes). If you're in a fleet, just X up what you need for the next sweep as the hauler goes off to dump stuff.

I just told you the reason: to reward those fleets that can get the discipline of logistics down. To reward those (fleets and individuals) who can plan out their mining and just not haphazardly go for what's closest. To reward thinking.

I don't care how you want to mine. I do care about (and enjoy) the idea that thoughtlessness and poor decision-making gets punished.

Good thing, then, that nothing of the kind is happening.

Good thing that it instead adds choices and imposes consequences for making bad ones GÇö it's the EVE way.

It removes choices you have to make and consequences for those choices. If it's a belt you visit often, you will know what's in it and in what general proportions. You will also have a good idea of what will be left by the time you get to it. Use that knowledge, make an informed decision, and go for your first sweep.

When you go back to station, adjust your setup according to your new dope.

It's no different than not fitting awful multispecs on your Falcon and instead gambling that the selection you picked will be the right one for the fleet you encounter. Welcome to how the rest of the game is played.

Wait, first you say you have to plan out your mining, and then you don't care?

That said, there are no game breaking issues if you make every crystal (& spares) available at one time to a miner in their hold.

You don't add choices by making stuff less configurable and imposing fixed holds and similar.
Let people decide if they want to bring 1, 10 or 50 crystals and give up i.e. on ore space. That's choice, mkay?

Reading is hard, isn't it? No, that's not what I said. Try again.

GǪaside from removing much-needed choices and decision making, and that limiting the ability to go after anything doesn't remove anything that anyone needs.

It still boils down to this, you will have more choices after the changes, even if they are choices that you don't like. Currently you get to the Hulk, and that's it, its' the best you can get. There's no reason at all to ever mine Veldspar with anything other than a Hulk.

Reading is hard, isn't it? No, that's not what I said. Try again.

The only choice that I don't like is to have to install a bot to deal with the asinine menial tasks the new Hulk will involve.
CCP is with me on that.
So here you go, from real fitting choices we get to install a bot and defeat all your oh so needed so skillful drawbacks.
Don't delude yourselves, if this stuff goes live, miners WILL install more bots to counter it.

even with the current system we have options; cargo space or crystal flexibility.

The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting

And every page afterward: theorycrafting.

Good news: with the new system, you will have that and much, much more. You are even given a reason to actually actively play the game and (gasp!) interact with other people.

There is literally zero downsides. Well, aside from the standard brainless miner response of adding more bots.

good news; nobody likes the new system.

So long as you are aware of and willing to deal with the consequences for violating the EULA. No one else gets to wish all their tedium and planning away by screaming a bot could do it, why should miners?

This is amazing.

CCP buff AFK mining, and you still cry.

This is amazing-ácompletely unsurprising.

CCP buff AFK mining, and you still cry.

It's hard to find non mining tasks that can beat mining tedium, it's why bots are almost all mining oriented (then rat / hauler mission oriented, finally few are trading oriented).

Well, aside from the standard brainless miner response of adding more bots.

Too bad that those news are incorrect.

It's the normal miner state of being.

Shouldn't it be a bit uplifting, then, that you are given things to do while you mine? You know, such as co-ordinating logistics and planning for the next moveGǪ

It's the normal miner state of being.

You too should try mining for 1-2 months

Yeah "logistics". You should not even pair "logistics" and some dumb crystals flipping possibly with a further net loss forcing somebody playing caddy.

you're right, it's not good news when a game is made less enjoyable regardless of all the other facts. mining isn't exactly enthralling to begin with. why make it even less enjoyable?

How is it being made less enjoyable? I can only think of one way, and I can't really say it without being incredibly rudeGǪ

It's hard to find non mining tasks that can beat mining tedium, it's why bots are almost all mining oriented (then rat / hauler mission oriented, finally few are trading oriented).

mining isn't fun to begin with, having to have another account giving me things i didn't need it to give me before now is in no way making it interesting and just adding an unwanted, unneeded and unnecessary activity i have to do in order to mine.

how does this change make mining more fun, interesting, better, or anything positive?

Use a mack. It's made for what you currently want. At this point you are arguing that the group ship is not good solo which means that yes, they DID do it right.

The points, you are missing all of them.

The highest yield miner in game has to have a competitive yield advantage (duh!).
The more you make achieving that yield cumbersome, the more they have to overbuff that ship to make it appetible more than the zero drawbacks alternatives.

Hulk should have the least "stops" and micromanagement so its performance is fully used. The other ships should have that factors to slow them down instead.

no it isn't. a mackinaw isn't made for maximising yield.

I feel obligated to point out that the more all miners overbuff their ship to get a "yield advantage" the less valuable the mining profession becomes because you flood the market with lots of mins. I love the free market!

So now your complaint is that you can't have solo and max yield, in which case yes, they still did it right. There is no problem with that.

mining isn't fun to begin with

how does this change make mining more fun, interesting, better, or anything positive?

it's irrelevant, if you're not maxing your yield gimping your raw isk/hour regardless of what minerals cost on the market.

Until you realize every single miner thinks exactly this way. Your individual greed is collectively screwing over your entire profession.

i'm not arguing with you because you're wrong.

you don't even understand the topic of discussion. stop posting.

i'm not arguing with you because you're wrong.

Then why are you doing it with even one account? (Oh, and no, you don't need a second one.)

It gives you more options and offers more decisions GÇö that is more fun, interesting, and better in and of itself.

It also adds an element of planning and task-managing. It also increases the rewards of socialising and running disciplined fleets. It gives you stuff to do while the lasers cycle, reducing that supposed tedium. All of it fun, interesting, and better.

Not really, no. It's basic economics.

The higher you push your yield, the less valuable it becomes. Your only hope is that miners in general are opting for something else. So more likely, you're not arguing with him because you can't find any faults with the reasoning.

I feel obligated to point out that the more all miners overbuff their ship to get a "yield advantage" the less valuable the mining profession becomes because you flood the market with lots of mins. I love the free market!

costs go down, mining does down, still takes as long to buy some thing. from a miners pov the value of minerals means nothing.

excellent debate skills, considering running for the US Senate?

there's a difference between fun and enjoyable. i find mining enjoyable but not fun.

it doesn't add an element of planning at all, like i said earlier it just makes me warp in and out 1 more time. that's just a waste of my time.
it doesn't reward fleets for being disciplined and organised, it just pisses off haulers because they have more crap to do. you don't gain a single goddamn thing with this new system. if we got a bigger bonus on crystal multipliers etc i'd put up with it and say "well the crystal situation is **** but at least we're getting a bonus for putting up with this bollocks"

none of it is fun, interesting or better. you're pissing off the haulers by giving them extra and pointless work, and having to warp in and out of a belt because i can't carry enough crystals just wastes my time.

In my experience it's cost goes down, miner profits drop, miners whine for another yield buff on the forums.

I find it kind of funny.

Then use a mack which only needs 2/3 of the crystals, or better yet, a skiff

guess i haven't been lurking the forums long enough to see that. when minerals were lower prices of things i were buying were proportionally lower so i haven't benefited from the price of minerals rising, to be honest.

i find mining enjoyable but not fun.

it doesn't add an element of planning at all

it doesn't reward fleets for being disciplined and organised

none of it is fun, interesting or better. you're pissing off the haulers by giving them extra and pointless work

and having to warp in and out of a belt because i can't carry enough crystals just wastes my time.

and when the skiff or mack gets the yield of a hulk, i will. not that your comment is in any way related to the conversation.

It gives you more options and offers more decisions GÇö that is more fun, interesting, and better in and of itself.

It also adds an element of planning and task-managing. It also increases the rewards of socialising and running disciplined fleets. It gives you stuff to do while the lasers cycle, reducing that supposed tedium. All of it fun, interesting, and better.

I find you weird if those two don't overlap for you.

Well, good. Then there's no problem. You don't have to think about what to bring, so the lack of cargo doesn't particularly affect you. Meanwhile, for those who do plan, they reap the benefits of a more efficient op.

GǪaside from letting those fleets that are disciplined and organised minimise the amount of work required and maximise the amount of ore pulled from the belt. If they're organised enough, the crystals become a complete non-issue.

Like I said, it benefits the disciplined fleet. They'll feel that it's neither extra nor pointless work GÇö it's just yet another thing they can do to benefit the op.

Seeing as how you have to warp in and out of the belt anyway, no time is wasted.

Considering you are trying to force the hulk to overlap into another ships role by lamenting its cargo limitations instead of using the other ship makes it perfectly relevant.

perhaps, i have fun doing more active things like going out with my friends. however i enjoy mining because i can just sit and put some music on, and chill out. y'know?

mining crystals shouldn't be an issue to begin with; ammo isn't an issue for mission runners so why should it be for miners?

they will feel it's extra and pointless work when they aren't gaining anything from it. how would you feel if your boss said you also have to work weekends for no extra pay? that's effectively what the crystal situation is, that's why nobody likes it.

mining crystals shouldn't be an issue to begin with; ammo isn't an issue for mission runners so why should it be for miners?

they will feel it's extra and pointless work when they aren't gaining anything from it. how would you feel if your boss said you also have to work weekends for no extra pay? that's effectively what the crystal situation is, that's why nobody likes it.

mining isn't fun to begin with,

Bull. A L4 mission in a tengu can go through upwards of 7k heavy missiles, not to mention that you need different damage types to do "optimal" damage to different rats.

I don't even need 7k missiles to do a L4 in a Drake.
I need about 200 - 300 projectiles in an arty Maelstrom, that is about 2 reloads.

Bull. A L4 mission in a tengu can go through upwards of 7k heavy missiles, not to mention that you need different damage types to do "optimal" damage to different rats.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say, if you aren't having fun doing something "in a game", then maybe you are doing it wrong. Maybe you should hire people to mine for you, people who actually enjoy it.

I wonder why you were crying so hard about the new inventory UI.

It brings the same elements of task managing. It imposes you the same stupid ass menial tasks. It forced you to be disciplined. It gives you stuff to do while you are docked, reducing the supposed tedium.

perhaps, i have fun doing more active things like going out with my friends. however i enjoy mining because i can just sit and put some music on, and chill out. y'know?

mining crystals shouldn't be an issue to begin with; ammo isn't an issue for mission runners so why should it be for miners?

they will feel it's extra and pointless work when they aren't gaining anything from it. how would you feel if your boss said you also have to work weekends for no extra pay? that's effectively what the crystal situation is

Tengus refire so fast that if the rat is >30km away you'll waste some volleys if you don't micro manage your missiles

how am i? i simply want my hulk to be able to hold the same amount of crystals as every other ship that uses 3 strip miners.

It brings the same elements of task managing. It imposes you the same stupid ass menial tasks. It forced you to be disciplined. It gives yNot really, no. You just have to plan your work a bit better.

Didn't the covetor and the hulk have the same cargo hold size? Or is there some other ship I'm missing here?

Didn't the covetor and the hulk have the same cargo hold size? Or is there some other ship I'm missing here?

His imaginary superhulk.

Ungankable, infinite cargo hold, and a device that magically gets him high mineral prices despite flooding the market.

however due to this inconsistency and one other inconsistency i have a feeling that the hulk will have a 500m3 cargo bay tomorrow and we can all stop arguing about this.

good news; nobody likes the new system. doesn't matter if it's better or not in your mind. no miner has responded positively.

Not really, no. It doesn't add any task managing GÇö it just makes the same tasks slower. It doesn't impose any menial tasks GÇö it just makes the same tasks slower. It doesn't force any kind of discipline. It doesn't give you anything to do while dock that you weren't doing already GÇö it just makes it slower.

]Ammo most certainly becomes an issue for mission runners if they try to run them for hours on end. Fortunately, they have this built-in requirement to go back to station and refit/rearm every now and then, which means that the additional ammo needs take no additional time. This holds true for miners as well, which is why it shouldn't add any work for them if they just thought about what they're doing a bitGǪ which will undoubtedly be a shock and confusing new experience.

plan your work better all you want; your boss is still expecting you in at 9am on saturday. no, you're still not getting paid for it.

sadly when ccp halved the crystal size they also strangely reduced the hulk's cargo bay.

I must be a nobody

nope, covetor is 500m3 (perfectly acceptable!) and the hulk is 350m3.

sadly when ccp halved the crystal size they also strangely reduced the hulk's cargo bay. if they'd have left the hulk's cargo bay there wouldn't really be an issue to discuss here.

however due to this inconsistency and one other inconsistency i have a feeling that the hulk will have a 500m3 cargo bay tomorrow and we can all stop arguing about this.

GǪexcept that no extra work is required if you plan ahead. You still have to warp back to station to deliver the ore. Make use of the time in the belt to plan what you're going after next; make use of the pit-stop to bring what you need. End result: planning GåÆ no additional work, same reward.

It's not particularly strange. It's a fleet ship GÇö the support ships in the fleet are meant to carry the crystals. If you obstinately refuse to use it for its purpose and try to use it as a solo ship, then that's almost entirely your problem.

Wtih canned Exhumers the choices are much less, the need to reload is canned as well.

I am sure the reason they reduced the cargohold of the hulk to below 500m3 is so we will no longer be able to use a hulk to set up new PI bases.

I'm enjoying having hardly any competition.

These changes are going to bring back all of those people who quit mining, those who quit playing all together due to permageddon, and invites new players to feel gankproof in highsec. The mineral market will be flooded, and mining will go from 40mil isk/hour to 20mil again.

So much effort... for that??
I mean, you can setup a new PI base with an expanded frigate, what's so absurd using an expensive ship to do the same?