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Susung Alt Anti-defamation League	Posted - 2010.10.08 05:30:00 - [1] After the whole control tower duping mess CCP made changes intended to alter the fundamental nature of null sec. Dominion was supposed to usher in a new era where high end moon goo meant much less and large powerblocks would be controlled by the costs necessary with owning systems. At first it seemed to be working. Many alliances rented space to smaller alliances and corps. A whole class system developed and null sec started to fill up. But things had not truly changed. Moon goo stayed incredibly profitable even became more profitable. Wars are still fought from high end moon to high end moon renters are just an afterthought. Perhaps I misunderstood the intent, but in my opinion moon goo still holds way to much sway on alliance behavior. The system needed a major overhaul and all it really got was a tune up. If an alliance can grow rich soley on their grasp of moons then they are going to continue to grab up as much as they can. It is really their only revenue stream. Alliances need some structural choices that allow them to create revenue other than filling freighters with dyspro. These changes should also include safety measures to kill the whole angry A-HOLE dissolved my alliance syndrome. Also moon mining needs to be drastically changed so that it is possible to actually over supply. High ends could deplete and reform somewhere else. I would even like to see high sec get to mine moons as well. Susung
Xialis NQX Innovations	Posted - 2010.10.08 06:03:00 - [2] tl;dr Static stuff is boring, stir up the sand box I agree with the idea that moons should deplete. 10/10 plexes were removed for the betterment of the game, and so should this static isk faucet. In fact, using the exploration (plex, WHs, cosmic sigs etc) paradigm to redistribute moon minerals after they are depleted would do a great deal to improving the game. More dynamic PVE for those who want to explore and set up industrial infrastructure. Which would lead to more holes in the Alliance security strategies and more oportunity to get some PVP started for fleets of all sizes. A small pirate force could disrupt a major source of income for an alliance, small alliances could find a lucky moon and get an influx of cash. It would add instability to the t2 moon goo markets, stable markets are boring and unprofitable. Also: Shouldn't this be in Ideas and discussions? (yeah, less audience there though)
Vlodovich Spectral Battalion	Posted - 2010.10.09 13:56:00 - [3] I almost completely agree with this. I think moon mining should still be 0.3 sec and below, but a dinamic reassignment of moon minerals I can only see positive effects of and no negatives. I don't think moons should deplete quickly, but maybe they could finally make use of the 'abundance' value of moon minerals, where moons with abundance of 1 deplete in two months, and abundance of 2 deplete in 4 months. This kind of timeframe would still allow for warfare to take a moon from someone, yet would allow for long enough for the people finding it to make a nice bit of money. I think it would make for a more volatile landscape, and would help smaller alliances and corps to find some money for a couple of months to boost operations. Finally it would also make use of moon probes again, as theres no need now with websites like Eve Moon Maps, where you can easily find the location of any moon mineral in the game. I reeeeeaaaallly want this to happen lol
Ira Theos	Posted - 2010.10.10 01:29:00 - [4] I argued in favor of these type of changes for years.... and then I found out about the pictures Sir Molle has of Hilmar in his possession. After that I just gave up.
Schani Kratnorr x13 IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.10 02:10:00 - [5] The real problem was and continues to be distribution. In this thread - http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1207775/page/1 you can find a lot of the numbers and a lengthy discussion on almost every aspect of the T2 production chain. Some of the material is outdated, but most of it checks out. In my view, the real problem is the rigid adherence to "types" of moons. Most moons produce one or two types of goo. For some reason moon types do not appear to be evenly distributed among various regions.
Hanz Landou	Posted - 2010.10.10 02:14:00 - [6] I fail to see how even distribution changed anything in this scenario. In the long term you're only creating more hubs for static wealth extraction. That's the entire problem the OP is pointing out. The immobile and easily defensible isk faucets are making 0.0 a complete wash for anyone wishing to come out as more than a pet residing in borderline wasteland space.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.10.10 02:18:00 - [7] I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo. Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming! /end bitterness - It's not "Play through a pre-set story, become stronger, do endgame". Gameplay is open ended, and you make your own story. Unless you're too afraid of 'pvp grief' to do anything relevant
captain foivos	Posted - 2010.10.10 02:41:00 - [8] Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo. Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming! /end bitterness Quoted for truth. -- I, for one, welcome the chance to open a bar I can decorate with the corpses of those I have slain. All hail Incarna.
Hanz Landou	Posted - 2010.10.10 03:01:00 - [9] Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo. Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming! /end bitterness So much truth... tear
Zendoren Aktaeon Industries	Posted - 2010.10.10 11:32:00 - [10] I support this change. Depletion of moon goo will allow the "Pay to Play" solv mechanic, implemented in Dominion, to finally have some teeth. With the addition of PI, 0.0 alliances will have a nice source of income to transition to and will allow the Huge alliance blocks to slowly consolidate without too much undue stress. I personally would love to see this idea pitched in the CSM assembly hall. unfortunately, it will never see the light of day if it does not have enough support from the community. I can guarantee that large alliance CSM members will not support it and try to bury it. (Got to love politics!)

Elara Constantine	Posted - 2010.10.10 11:54:00 - [11] Maybe, similarly to how PI works, CCP should allow moon harvesting in highsec, but instead of 100 units/hour make it 25. Things are better in nullsec, but why shouldn't moons be harvestable too? Create a better balance. And yes, I concur that as PI is supposed to 'deplete' areas on a planet, make moons do the same, so you can't set up a perma isk faucet. A resource only has so much it can give before turning to dust...
Zendoren Aktaeon Industries	Posted - 2010.10.10 12:42:00 - [12] Originally by: Elara Constantine Maybe, similarly to how PI works, CCP should allow moon harvesting in highsec, but instead of 100 units/hour make it 25. Things are better in nullsec, but why shouldn't moons be harvestable too? Create a better balance. And yes, I concur that as PI is supposed to 'deplete' areas on a planet, make moons do the same, so you can't set up a perma isk faucet. A resource only has so much it can give before turning to dust... I do not support having moon mining in high sec. There needs to be benefits for people that take risks. If you allow moon mining in high sec you take away a benefit that has made low & null sec distinct from empire. I support the capitalist view of "High risk = High reward". What I do not support is "High risk = Guarantee high reward" as the system is now. Like in life, noting is guaranteed and I believe that moon goo should be rebalanced to reflect this philosophy!
Susung Alt Anti-defamation League	Posted - 2010.10.11 18:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Zendoren I support this change. Depletion of moon goo will allow the "Pay to Play" solv mechanic, implemented in Dominion, to finally have some teeth. With the addition of PI, 0.0 alliances will have a nice source of income to transition to and will allow the Huge alliance blocks to slowly consolidate without too much undue stress. I personally would love to see this idea pitched in the CSM assembly hall. unfortunately, it will never see the light of day if it does not have enough support from the community. I can guarantee that large alliance CSM members will not support it and try to bury it. (Got to love politics!) That is why it has to be bundled with some other goodies for alliances to get other ways to make isk. Right now PI can only be done by the sov holding alliance but other than that they have no idea what is going on. Alliance dues are controlled by alliance officers without any in game tools to really help them. I am not sure what kind of control they have over income from stations but you need something the little guy can do to get anywhere near putting up an outpost. Taxes only on bounties is a bit impotent really. Open up some other tax bases income tax, production taxes, automated dues payments. If members don't like your taxes then they leave to a lower tax lower benefit's alliance. I can jump a freighter full of stuff out from Jita and make billions and neither my corp nor my alliance gets any benefit from it, but the guy who is ratting has to pay 10%
Zendoren Aktaeon Industries	Posted - 2010.10.11 19:11:00 - [14] Originally by: Susung Originally by: Zendoren I support this change. Depletion of moon goo will allow the "Pay to Play" solv mechanic, implemented in Dominion, to finally have some teeth. With the addition of PI, 0.0 alliances will have a nice source of income to transition to and will allow the Huge alliance blocks to slowly consolidate without too much undue stress. I personally would love to see this idea pitched in the CSM assembly hall. unfortunately, it will never see the light of day if it does not have enough support from the community. I can guarantee that large alliance CSM members will not support it and try to bury it. (Got to love politics!) That is why it has to be bundled with some other goodies for alliances to get other ways to make isk. Right now PI can only be done by the sov holding alliance but other than that they have no idea what is going on. Alliance dues are controlled by alliance officers without any in game tools to really help them. I am not sure what kind of control they have over income from stations but you need something the little guy can do to get anywhere near putting up an outpost. Taxes only on bounties is a bit impotent really. Open up some other tax bases income tax, production taxes, automated dues payments. If members don't like your taxes then they leave to a lower tax lower benefit's alliance. I can jump a freighter full of stuff out from Jita and make billions and neither my corp nor my alliance gets any benefit from it, but the guy who is ratting has to pay 10% I totally agree with you! There needs to be an in game mechanism to allow corporations to charge taxes on personal market transactions and contracts based on corporate level standings. If nothing else, CCP needs to allow player corporations to create invoices (I.E. bills), just like NPCs do for office rentals, to other corporations/individuals so that complex transactions can have paper-trails in game thus allowing people to build trust. My suggestion is to build an invoicing system (much like the contract system is but without requiring items) that is tied to a feedback system. (much like amazon or ebay has theirs) Once you complete a transaction and a invoice is closed, the buyer can rate the sellers performance and it can be publicly seen. However, this is a bit off topic for a moon goo discussions so I will save it for a rainy day!
Barakkus	Posted - 2010.10.11 22:38:00 - [15] Originally by: Zendoren Originally by: Susung Originally by: Zendoren I support this change. Depletion of moon goo will allow the "Pay to Play" solv mechanic, implemented in Dominion, to finally have some teeth. With the addition of PI, 0.0 alliances will have a nice source of income to transition to and will allow the Huge alliance blocks to slowly consolidate without too much undue stress. I personally would love to see this idea pitched in the CSM assembly hall. unfortunately, it will never see the light of day if it does not have enough support from the community. I can guarantee that large alliance CSM members will not support it and try to bury it. (Got to love politics!) That is why it has to be bundled with some other goodies for alliances to get other ways to make isk. Right now PI can only be done by the sov holding alliance but other than that they have no idea what is going on. Alliance dues are controlled by alliance officers without any in game tools to really help them. I am not sure what kind of control they have over income from stations but you need something the little guy can do to get anywhere near putting up an outpost. Taxes only on bounties is a bit impotent really. Open up some other tax bases income tax, production taxes, automated dues payments. If members don't like your taxes then they leave to a lower tax lower benefit's alliance. I can jump a freighter full of stuff out from Jita and make billions and neither my corp nor my alliance gets any benefit from it, but the guy who is ratting has to pay 10% I totally agree with you! There needs to be an in game mechanism to allow corporations to charge taxes on personal market transactions and contracts based on corporate level standings. If nothing else, CCP needs to allow player corporations to create invoices (I.E. bills), just like NPCs do for office rentals, to other corporations/individuals so that complex transactions can have paper-trails in game thus allowing people to build trust. My suggestion is to build an invoicing system (much like the contract system is but without requiring items) that is tied to a feedback system. (much like amazon or ebay has theirs) Once you complete a transaction and a invoice is closed, the buyer can rate the sellers performance and it can be publicly seen. However, this is a bit off topic for a moon goo discussions so I will save it for a rainy day! Better yet, don't do a feedback system, make a collections system where you can sell bad debt to debt collectors which basically just war decs the other party until they close the invoice Originally by: captain foivos Who would recruit someone named Barakkus? Wait a minute...
Narffy SP4RTANS Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.12 00:24:00 - [16] Depleting Moon Goo: It already sucks nuts setting up and ripping down a tower. I'd rather mine or do PI than suffer through moving towers around every 2 to 4 months and I'd quit EVE before going back to mining. I don't have any moons. Taxing Market transactions / contracts: This is easy to circumvent. Simply give your stuff to an out of corp alt and trade with that alt.
Horrus Khrosian	Posted - 2010.10.12 00:35:00 - [17] Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo. Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming! /end bitterness This... This should be printed off several thousand times and mailed to CCP.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.10.12 00:38:00 - [18] TBH the best solution would be to have alternate sources for moon goo - either PI, asteroids, or even "gas" mining. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Aessoroz	Posted - 2010.10.12 01:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Liang Nuren TBH the best solution would be to have alternate sources for moon goo - either PI, asteroids, or even "gas" mining. -Liang Shove it into low sec only and we got a deal.
Zendoren Aktaeon Industries	Posted - 2010.10.12 07:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Aessoroz Originally by: Liang Nuren TBH the best solution would be to have alternate sources for moon goo - either PI, asteroids, or even "gas" mining. -Liang Shove it into low sec only and we got a deal. I'll go for that! About the taxes: the system is not there to make them pay taxes but instead allow them a system to contribute to taxes.... Any CEO knows that you aren't going to make anyone do anything unless they want to. About feedback system: you can bio mass your char in 24 hrs or stop playing the game on their mains and play with their alts. Selling bad debt to collection agencies will not work. Feedback system is the best way to go. However, selling of kill rights is another story!

Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.10.12 08:52:00 - [21] carebears fighting over moon rights in high sec. even though the moon is gonna be out of resources soon...UMM NO!!!
My Postman	Posted - 2010.10.12 10:29:00 - [22] Originally by: Zendoren Originally by: Elara Constantine Maybe, similarly to how PI works, CCP should allow moon harvesting in highsec, but instead of 100 units/hour make it 25. Things are better in nullsec, but why shouldn't moons be harvestable too? Create a better balance. And yes, I concur that as PI is supposed to 'deplete' areas on a planet, make moons do the same, so you can't set up a perma isk faucet. A resource only has so much it can give before turning to dust... I do not support having moon mining in high sec. There needs to be benefits for people that take risks. If you allow moon mining in high sec you take away a benefit that has made low & null sec distinct from empire. I support the capitalist view of "High risk = High reward". What I do not support is "High risk = Guarantee high reward" as the system is now. Like in life, noting is guaranteed and I believe that moon goo should be rebalanced to reflect this philosophy! Gold moon goo has two sides. Now it¦s an instant and sure income for powerblocks (only). Imo thats a bad thing and has to be changed, some way or the other. If "gold mine moons" appear in highsec (while depleting when "outmined"), you have to set POS, therefor you need to be in player corp and can be wardecced. It might not be so save as you think. Anyway, this way or the other, atm there is no sort of competition for gold moon goo, it¦s a "special" income for powerblocks only, and that¦s not a good thing imo. Just thinking.
wizard87	Posted - 2010.10.12 10:48:00 - [23] Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo. Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming! /end bitterness And again. CCP response to this truth please? Sov is now a Tax on players. And like with all taxes it barely affects the mega-rich and penalizes those less well off/smaller groups. Is that what 0.0 should be about? Dominion was junk.
Dr Karsun Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.12 10:58:00 - [24] I don't see what is the problem here in your opinion. Moon mining requires a lot of isk for a start. Even the simplest complex reactions (sounds strange, doesn't it) require a lot of work to set up, alter to maintain and most of all - defend. Thanks to the moon minerals not being depletable you don't have the PI problem where most people who don't have the time to log 4 times a day to make the miner work again can't really make any reasonable profit per month on it. Thanks to moon minerals not being depletable big alliances hold them, fight over them, but the space somewhere in between which is considered less value is not a problem of the big alliances and you have room for smaller ones. Conflict zones are widely known, who wants to - avoids them. Now IF you make mineral change dynami - apart from having no real sense as quantities of minerals dug up out of moons are so small in cubic meters that they should last a life time... Would cause one thing for sure - obliteration of all small and most mid-sized alliance in 0.0. Big alliances would just be huge killing blobs rolling threw space killing poses and entire systems to get the high-end moons from targets. The TARGETS may not even know that they are targets untill DT and when suddenly it comes out a small alliance has 3-4 technetium moons in one system or a few system. At that moment they can either run for it and clear their poses as fast as possible, or wait a day or two untill NC or SC comes and kills them because they got the moon. Making moon mineral random generator would not only kill the pos business for all small and mid alliances, but also destroy all positive changes of the last expansions.
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.12 11:02:00 - [25] What ever happeend to wromhole moons oh and those comets with moon goo that were promised, guess they got dumped along teh way eh
Khanaris Asgarth Eternium Industries	Posted - 2010.10.12 11:09:00 - [26] I like the idea of it depleting. But instead of the moon being empty. Make it when the amount of moon minerals is depleted. Have it randomly generate a new moon mineral in its place. So incomes fluctuate and it encourages people to keep scanning moons for new deposits when they refresh. Sometimes giving common cheap materials but with the chance for a really expensive high earning materials now and then. With slim chances in lowsec of them cropping up and in large amounts. Increasing the chances in nullsec systems of all types but with better chances in the better negative rating regions. Deposits could range from a few weeks worth of mining with a large tower to a few months. Making it well worth the effort. But eliminating it as a static income. This would also encourage more territorial fighting ( null and lowsec ) as well as spread the wealth to those willing to put in the time and effort. Whilst also meaning that you can take your chances once the current supply runs out to see what the next load of moon minerals will be. Or pack up and find the next big seam.
Gewrixlera	Posted - 2010.10.12 16:36:00 - [27] Edited by: Gewrixlera on 12/10/2010 16:40:19 Originally by: wizard87 Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo. Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming! /end bitterness And again. CCP response to this truth please? Sov is now a Tax on players. And like with all taxes it barely affects the mega-rich and penalizes those less well off/smaller groups. Is that what 0.0 should be about? Dominion was junk. Bah. Have you actually done both types of sov warfare? Option 1 (Pre-Dominion): Bash dozens of towers, then station per system to take possession of said system. Days (weeks!) of tower bashing PER SYSTEM Option 2 (Dominion): Anchor SBU, Attack Station, Attack iHub, rinse. repeat. rinse. repeat. Attack TCU. Claim system. I've been in the "new" sov warfare now for about a month - under the old system my alliance would be lucky to have a couple systems owned, rather than a vast swath of 0.0 - easier to claim -or- defend (but requires caps to make it timely). Oh, and on topic - moon goo needs help? Yes. Moon goo in hisec? No way never bad idea. More moon goo in other forms in losec? Sure, sounds like a viable risk/reward situation, esp. if that other form is mutable or mobile, like gas clouds or grav exploration sites, and mineable with deep core miners maybe...
Miagi Sans Amarr PURgE-Corp PURgE Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.12 19:11:00 - [28] Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo. Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming! /end bitterness +1.....many small alliances feel the same as you. we were promised an opportunity to get a chance to move into null...we did...for about a month until the large alliances got their stuff together, then its went back to business as usual
Dusenman Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.12 19:50:00 - [29] Originally by: Miagi Sans Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo. Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming! /end bitterness +1.....many small alliances feel the same as you. we were promised an opportunity to get a chance to move into null...we did...for about a month until the large alliances got their stuff together, then its went back to business as usual I support the idea of small alliances being able to take and hold sov, but it doesn't seems like it is going to work out any time soon(TM).
Syn Callibri Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse	Posted - 2010.10.12 20:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Xialis tl;dr Static stuff is boring, stir up the sand box... All that does is uncover all of the cat-turds (aka. moar whines) hiding under the sand. Syn Callibri Commander - Fleet Ops [21EL] Keeper of the Blood Pact "Fortis quod Fidelis ut Terminus"



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