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Nash MacAllister
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
9
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Posted - 2012.08.14 04:23:00 -
[211] - Quote
Two step wrote: I certainly understand your position, but I don't think it is fair to allow, for example, the same level of defensive firepower in a C1 that someone could have in a C6. If the attackers can't use a dread (without spending weeks building it in place), you should have less firepower available as well. You guys have made a purposeful decision to live in a C2, where you have less income from sleepers, and easier access to empire.
You guys have decided on less risk to your POSes, there should be a tradeoff to that decision. I don't support giving you *less* functionality than the current system, but I do think it is reasonable to give you fewer defenses, and possibly not some of the features that people that choose to expose themselves to higher risk would get.
I respectfully disagree with this statement. To say that living in a C2 somehow poses less risk is absurd. We have the same risk to our POS as you do. Any WH can be fortified by putting time and ISK into it. And any WH can be burned, again, by putting time and ISK into it. Nobody is safe based solely on the class WH they live in, and although the threats vary, they are relatively the same no matter where you live. It is not uncommon to see 100 person T3 fleets burning a C2. Large towers don't last long, a medium would be laughable.
Is the goal to make it easier for ragtag corps to muscle their way in to the lower class wh? I cannot support being penalized for being organized. And WH space is about organization, and lack thereof is a recipe for disaster. And as was said, there are soooo many empty wh, an eviction is usually personal, not a lack of space. So why make it easy for the aggressors?
I absolutely do not agree that if you don't live in a C5/C6 then you are somehow taking the easy road. It simply is not the case. And the POS changes should not at all reflect that attitude. Don't fix what isn't broken. Stick to the legitimate concerns that have been voiced over and over again regarding POS security, management, and access IMHO. The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |

LanFear TyRaX
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
7
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Posted - 2012.08.14 06:06:00 -
[212] - Quote
I second the request to know if ForceField removal is a done deal or not, we can plan better if we know that.
What I feel (and I may be wrong) is that CCP is trying to make more people move to wspace by making it accessible with more amenities ? I see that wspace will become another variant of kspace. While this is desirable to some people,it is not, to a good percentage (if not a majority) of active wspace residents.
Me at least, left kspace because of some of the things that are proposed to be added to wormholes. Like station games, instawarp undock, station camping etc. If wspace turns into 0.0 without local, we will have all the difficulties without any of the attractive distinctions.
In this thread, I see a lot of people from corporations and alliances I see and interact Please convey these ideas and feedbacks to CCP. Still,I think, CCP will be like, "hell, whatever we do, they will keep playing anyway".
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Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
463
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Posted - 2012.08.14 06:25:00 -
[213] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Quote:KAIRS live in C2s because they're pansies. QFT ;) Just wait Jack. The next time that Orca of yours is going down! 
wasnt actually my orca. i was escorting it through a chain recently and it still has the hull damage from that run in :D |

Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
463
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Posted - 2012.08.14 06:37:00 -
[214] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:I respectfully disagree with this statement. To say that living in a C2 somehow poses less risk is absurd. We have the same risk to our POS as you do.
oh please, youre just embarrassing yourself. comparing POS sieges in a c5/6 to a c2 is just stupid, at best ignorant.
POS defences on a C5/6 POS are basically decorative since any attacking fleet will have a LEAST 3, more likely a half dozen or more, dreads which can ignore them. attacking a decked out dickstar in a low class WH is THE single most tedious and horribly painful thing you can do in a WH.
yes, obviously it can be done regardless of POS setup, even in a C1. however, attacking a low class large POS with 100+ online ECM mods (which all low class POSs should have if they know what theyre doing, most dont) is beyond painful. |

kapolov
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 07:05:00 -
[215] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Nash MacAllister wrote:I respectfully disagree with this statement. To say that living in a C2 somehow poses less risk is absurd. We have the same risk to our POS as you do. oh please, youre just embarrassing yourself. comparing POS sieges in a c5/6 to a c2 is just stupid, at best ignorant. POS defences on a C5/6 POS are basically decorative since any attacking fleet will have a LEAST 3, more likely a half dozen or more, dreads which can ignore them. attacking a decked out dickstar in a low class WH is THE single most tedious and horribly painful thing you can do in a WH. yes, obviously it can be done regardless of POS setup, even in a C1. however, attacking a low class large POS with 100+ online ECM mods (which all low class POSs should have if they know what theyre doing, most dont) is beyond painful.
So we should just make us all use small/medium POS's so you can just breeze through evict a few noobs and move on back to your fortress of solitude. Get a grip on reality, how elitist can you be.
Get past the idea that the cap game is the only way to play in WH's |

Bane Nucleus
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
192
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Posted - 2012.08.14 07:10:00 -
[216] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:
oh please, youre just embarrassing yourself. comparing POS sieges in a c5/6 to a c2 is just stupid, at best ignorant.
POS defences on a C5/6 POS are basically decorative since any attacking fleet will have a LEAST 3, more likely a half dozen or more, dreads which can ignore them. attacking a decked out dickstar in a low class WH is THE single most tedious and horribly painful thing you can do in a WH.
yes, obviously it can be done regardless of POS setup, even in a C1. however, attacking a low class large POS with 100+ online ECM mods (which all low class POSs should have if they know what theyre doing, most dont) is beyond painful.
It's two different ways of accomplishing the same thing. To invade any decent sized corp/alliance in deep wormhole space, you are going to need more than just 3 dreads. This means you are going to be rolling, looking for a way to bring in more caps. By that time, there is a fleet of 100 people in a c2, already smashing everything in it's way. On top of that, if they feel like inviting friends, help is a stones throw away.
Having experienced both shallow and deep wormhole game play. , I would call that about even on the risk scale.
Alliance Diplomat, Recruiter |

Zwo Zateki
CazyKo PowerDucks Alliance
17
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Posted - 2012.08.14 08:14:00 -
[217] - Quote
Two step wrote:The exact reasons got NDA'd out of the CSM minutes, but they are reasonable. Yeah, you don't understand but we know what we're doing!!11
Heard that before... (Hint: Incarna) |

Zwo Zateki
CazyKo PowerDucks Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 08:19:00 -
[218] - Quote
Two step wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:Two step wrote:
I certainly understand your position, but I don't think it is fair to allow, for example, the same level of defensive firepower in a C1 that someone could have in a C6. If the attackers can't use a dread (without spending weeks building it in place), you should have less firepower available as well. You guys have made a purposeful decision to live in a C2, where you have less income from sleepers, and easier access to empire.
You guys have decided on less risk to your POSes, there should be a tradeoff to that decision. I don't support giving you *less* functionality than the current system, but I do think it is reasonable to give you fewer defenses, and possibly not some of the features that people that choose to expose themselves to higher risk would get.
Whoa, I was planning on leaving this convo for a while until I read this. This is just plain bad and feels like some weird elitism. How is C2 or C3 less? Yes, its scaled for smaller corps and alliances. The sleeper sites can be done in ships that require smaller SP investment and the connections prevent capital ship movement. Besides those two points this part of w-space is just as cruel and unforgiving as the rest of w-space. There is no local, no security status hits, you can still anchor bubbles and use all kinds of items that are not allowed in high sec. But high sec, where a freighter can move a Large POS will not have this limitation? What the rest of k-space? Is null sec going to have better POSes than low sec? And how is having capitals in C5 an excuse for larger POSes and better defenses? Why can't the defender use the capitals to defend? After all you just said it yourself, that POSes need to be defended by ships and not turrets. So how does that make lower class w-space an exception? Also, I think Empire access is a liability as the attacker can use it to bring in more people into the system then cycle, as opposed to higher class w-space where an empire connection is rare. Uh, you said it yourself, "Yes, its scaled for smaller corps and alliances". How is a small corp going to evict some other small corp that has built a giant deathstar POS without the ability to bring in dreads? This is, again, an issue that comes up when I talk to smaller corps than are posting here. Some 5 man corp can't move into a c2 right now because many of them are filled with large ecm dickstars, which they have no hope of killing. POS defenses need to scale with the amount and size of ships that can be brought to bear against them. And you want 5 man corp to be able to destroy/steal billions of ISK stored @ Corporate Hangar Array just like that? Brilliant. |

TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
250
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 08:46:00 -
[219] - Quote
As for the lower class wormholes issue, I think it's fairly balanced tbh. You gain a defense advantage because its harder for attackers to knock over your large death/**** stars, but at the same time you sacrifice a lot by living in a low class wormhole - the logistics can be harder and obviously the isk is pathetic. C1/C2 evictions also do actually happen
Beyond that, I also think purposefully gimping lower class wormholes by idiotic ideas such as preventing them from bringing in or using large towers or other mods you also make wormhole space less appealing for corps that are looking to try something new. You're saying either jump in at the deep end or get a really sucky experience. And jumping into the deep end could be a fairly sucky experience in and of itself unless they join one of the already established Big BoysGäó of wormhole space. |

Joachim Weiss
Executive Override Inc. Transmission Lost
2
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Posted - 2012.08.14 09:12:00 -
[220] - Quote
I'm not so much worried about docking games. People can hang on the edge of their shields now for a similar effect. The biggest issue is transparency. The fact that wormhole life means you need to play with all your cards on the table (with a cloaky ace up your sleeve) provides a unique gameplay style that can't be found anywhere else in the Eve Universe. Our CSM and CCP should focus on making wormhole life even more unique, not thinking about how they can bring them in line with the rest of Eve. Variety of lifestyles is what keeps a lot of people here, don't take that away.
The ability to fit T3 subsystems on ships is something that I'm sure is on the top on any rational persons list, so I wanted to make sure CCP was aware of it as well.
As far as I'm concerned, you can leave the structures the same. Other than T3 fitting, the ability to have personal space to store ships and a personal hanger are the only real pressing needs to WH life as I see it. If you give me that, along with a POS management interface that doesn't look like a leftover from the Commodore 64 era, I will give you all my beans.
And before Bane pops a blood vessel, I must say that the idea of limiting POS size in wormholes is beyond silly. The idea to reduce ECM on a POS sounds nice, but even that addresses a problem that I don't think really exists. If someone wants that POS dead bad enough, there are plenty of ways and plenty of people who can do the job. Let their false sense of security be their consolation for living in silly little baby wormholes. |
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Bane Nucleus
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
193
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Posted - 2012.08.14 09:15:00 -
[221] - Quote
Joachim Weiss wrote: Let their false sense of security be their consolation for living in silly little baby wormholes.
Lets see here. Where is that kick corp button again?......
Alliance Diplomat, Recruiter |

Sp0ki3
renditions of madness B A C K B 0 N E
2
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Posted - 2012.08.14 10:18:00 -
[222] - Quote
I just want logs for the arrays to see where items are being moved and by who. |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
375
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 11:23:00 -
[223] - Quote
Joachim Weiss wrote: I must say that the idea of limiting POS size in wormholes is beyond silly. The idea to reduce ECM on a POS sounds nice, but even that addresses a problem that I don't think really exists. If someone wants that POS dead bad enough, there are plenty of ways and plenty of people who can do the job. Let their false sense of security be their consolation for living in silly little baby wormholes.
I agree and i think limiting large POS's to high class wormholes at this stage would be totally unreasonable.
Punishing people for living in a c1-c3 after they have spent years developing and securing a wormhole system is not the way to go. Everyone should have to same abilities and benefits as they do now (including static pos defenses) but people in C4-C6 should get additions benefits/features. |

Dino Boff
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
9
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Posted - 2012.08.14 11:57:00 -
[224] - Quote
POS hit points or defences capabilities should scale down in lower class wormholes, but other features should be the same. Higher class wormholes are farther away from empire space and station services but that's a trade off we accept when moving there to get better rewards (both in PVE and PVP). |

Monica Lesture
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2012.08.14 12:01:00 -
[225] - Quote
Two Step in a " I have now clue about (lower class) WH PVP after my corp bunkered for years in a C6 and now are on the verge of collapse due to inactivity" non-shocker. |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
375
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 12:05:00 -
[226] - Quote
Dino Boff wrote:POS hit points or defences capabilities should scale down in lower class wormholes, but other features should be the same. Higher class wormholes are farther away from empire space and station services but that's a trade off we accept when moving there to get better rewards (both in PVE and PVP).
If they system was originally designed that way sure but the fact is they weren't and we all had to deal with the ****** POS system.
It's not impossible to take out a pos in low end wormholes no matter how we defended they are. It's all down to the attackers determination.
Should they limit how many caps you can have in a c5/6 to make it easier for small c5/6 corps to siege a POS too? |

kapolov
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 12:07:00 -
[227] - Quote
Dino Boff wrote:POS hit points or defences capabilities should scale down in lower class wormholes, but other features should be the same. Higher class wormholes are farther away from empire space and station services but that's a trade off we accept when moving there to get better rewards (both in PVE and PVP).
If your going to put forward an stupid idea you should at the least explain why?
Why should we risk the 10's of billions in assets that we have just as a small corp in a C4 and be forced to live out of a POS with the defence and HP of a small POS, a small POS that any rag tag bunch of idiots with a fleet comp put together by a monkey could easilly handle.
Yeah lets make all low class WH's the entertainment for people while they can't find any C5/C6 cap fights.  |

kapolov
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 12:09:00 -
[228] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:
Should they limit how many caps you can have in a c5/6 to make it easier for small c5/6 corps to siege a POS too?
A good point made, if we can no longer have a fortress why should you have more than three caps at a time. |

Dino Boff
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
9
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Posted - 2012.08.14 12:41:00 -
[229] - Quote
POS have been design for empire and null sec.; they have too much HP and their defences are OP for small gang pvp we do in w-space.
Beside with the short life wormhole connection, what does protect a POS (or a POCO) in w-space is its timer (for all wormhole classes). |

Nash MacAllister
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 12:42:00 -
[230] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Nash MacAllister wrote:I respectfully disagree with this statement. To say that living in a C2 somehow poses less risk is absurd. We have the same risk to our POS as you do. oh please, youre just embarrassing yourself. comparing POS sieges in a c5/6 to a c2 is just stupid, at best ignorant. POS defences on a C5/6 POS are basically decorative since any attacking fleet will have a LEAST 3, more likely a half dozen or more, dreads which can ignore them. attacking a decked out dickstar in a low class WH is THE single most tedious and horribly painful thing you can do in a WH. yes, obviously it can be done regardless of POS setup, even in a C1. however, attacking a low class large POS with 100+ online ECM mods (which all low class POSs should have if they know what theyre doing, most dont) is beyond painful.
Your attitude and elitism on the matter is laughable and part of the underlying problem here. It would seem that you, Two Step, and many others feel that to be a "real" WH corp, you must strive to live in a C5/C6. And therefore, you create 2 classes of pilots/corps. Until that ridiculousness is abandoned, there will be serious challenges to making any of the proposed changes work for WH dwellers as a whole. And what we need is to make it a BETTER experience for new corps and players coming into w-space. More people successfully living in w-space = more encounters and potentially more fights which I know we would all love to see... The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
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kapolov
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 12:44:00 -
[231] - Quote
Dino Boff wrote:POS have been design for empire and null sec.; they have too much HP and their defences are OP for small gang pvp we do in w-space.
Beside with the short life wormhole connection, what does protect a POS (or a POCO) in w-space is its timer (for all wormhole classes).
I seriously cant believe you still speak with that much crap dribbling out. It's unbelievable. |

Dino Boff
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
9
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Posted - 2012.08.14 12:49:00 -
[232] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Should they limit how many caps you can have in a c5/6 to make it easier for small c5/6 corps to siege a POS too?
Please no, we want more capitals to shoot at, not less. |

TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
250
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 12:51:00 -
[233] - Quote
Dino Boff wrote:POS have been design for empire and null sec.; they have too much HP and their defences are OP for small gang pvp we do in w-space.
Beside with the short life wormhole connection, what does protect a POS (or a POCO) in w-space is its timer (for all wormhole classes).
Their defenses are OP for "small gang pvp"? Uh... no. Small gangs were never intended to be able to steamroll towers, in any area of space. |

kapolov
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 12:55:00 -
[234] - Quote
Dino Boff wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Should they limit how many caps you can have in a c5/6 to make it easier for small c5/6 corps to siege a POS too? Please no, we want more capitals to shoot at, not less.
Then take your caps and go invade a fully fortified C5/C6 for a complete eviction. Ohh wait that's to hard right? Perhaps if you changed **** up to suit your entertainment value then it would be ok.
The fact is that C5/C6 evictions happen a hell of a lot less than they do in lower class holes and you guys somehow think that our end is unbalanced. The naivety is palpable. |

TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
251
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 13:00:00 -
[235] - Quote
heres a crazy idea regarding docking games, towers in c1s, etc:
dont fix what isn't broken
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Archdaimon
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
81
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 13:10:00 -
[236] - Quote
We've done full invasions several times in c6 and c5's.
It takes a lot of work and even for smaller entities a full weeks work.
We don't need to make it harder to invade wormholes. Quite the opposite.
In honesty though, it will be virtually impossible to kick out any one from smaller class wormholes if timers are set to weeks. It would require a tremendous tedious effort of pos bashing against an already defeated foe if we were to store our chars there for decades. |

Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
375
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 13:14:00 -
[237] - Quote
Yeah well week long reinforcement timers are a stupid idea too. |

Bloemkoolsaus
Viperfleet Inc. Transmission Lost
24
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Posted - 2012.08.14 13:15:00 -
[238] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:Give the C5/C6 guys something to help mitigate the Cap threat. But don't screw the lower class wh dwellers in doing so by limiting their POS or defensive selection.
Living in a C5 myself, I can tell you that we already have a pretty effective way of dealing with hostile caps that folks in lower class wormholes don't have. Namely, our own cap fleet.
I think the `balance` currently in being able to attack / defend a wormhole system are fine. I am against nerfing lower class wormholes, and I am against buffing highter classes. Like many already said before, a lower class wormhole is harder to invade (although inpractise that would remain to be seen) but you pay a huge price in pve income. That price is actually pretty substantial compared to a C5 or C6. POS'es in C1's should be the same as in C6's.
In addition to that, EVE isn't fair nor was it intended to be. If you are able to muster more power then some one else (be it by sheer numbers or more powerfull friends or whatever), then you have the right to claim what is his. This is one of the things for me that defines what EVE is. I don't think there should be a game mechanic to influence those effects, especially not in wpace. |

Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 13:23:00 -
[239] - Quote
I would say that it's MORE dangerous to live in a C2/HS/? than it is a C6/C6, because you would constantly have visitors coming in and out. And unless you have absolute control over your HS exit(s) -- and most people don't -- your system is wide open for anyone to wander in and provide intelligence to the rest of his group.
The issue with sieging well-defended systems isn't from actual shooting of the tower, it's from committing your time and resources to a prolonged operation. You limit yourself to primarily attacking that one target and giving up the occasion to look for other targets. Not many people really want to do this, whether you have dreads or not. Remember, unless you're suggesting something to CCP that we don't know about, we aren't fighting for Sov in w-space. Those TCUs in w-space don't do anything; they're just noob magnets. We're just looking for fights in general, preferably good ones.
W-space isn't Nullsec. You don't just get a bug up your butt allof a sudden and decide you want to evict half the residents from a region because there is a nice moon in there somewhere, hotdrop in your 100s of caps, blap blap for a few minutes, and come back the next day. Evictions are generally reserved for settling grudges, and are the last resort. We don't enjoy sitting around picking our noses waiting for reinforce timers while guarding bubbled holes and towers. We only do it when we have to or for a good cause, such as the large group kicking AAA out of their farming C6.
Dropping a temporary tower to provoke the occupants is a better way to get fights than sieging a system. I bet if you dropped a tower in any of the home systems of the corps in this thread, you'd get a nice fight. Y'know, I bet that fight would even be right on the tower too. This is a great use for small towers. You can't actually live out of them very well.
With a decent w-space static, that C2 corp could take in a lot of ISK. See, when you can't cap escalate the same sites every day, you chain-farm your statics; something you might have lost sight of living in a C6/C6. And unless you like blue-on-blue action, those of us in PvP corps/alliances hunt our statics too.
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Ashimat
Reconfiguration Nation Transmission Lost
33
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Posted - 2012.08.14 13:34:00 -
[240] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:Living in a C5 myself, I can tell you that we already have a pretty effective way of dealing with hostile caps that folks in lower class wormholes don't have. Namely, our own cap fleet.
Well...
You can have as much caps in a C2 that you have in a C6, only difference is they all will belong to the ones defending the place and they all are to be considered a investment in the system. I know that in reality, that don't have the effect you would think it would on paper, but still...
I agree that the balance is pretty good as it is now thou. Maybe with a POS ECM nerf. http://rnat-postmortem.blogspot.se |
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