I applaud you on trying to collect the opinions and knowledge of the w-space community. However, I think this thread is going to cause a problem rather then provide a solution. Since all that will happen is that the issues with the Force Fields will be drowned by a bunch of other, albeit great, ideas. So I will try to list all the problems that will arise with the removal of Force Fields and then we should probably try to offer solutions that will allow CCP to transition to the new POS system without breaking the w-space game.


FORCE FIELDS

- Biggest issue with removing Force Fields in w-space is the fact that it has to be replaced by some other item or status that can be seen on the overview. See where I am going here? Imagine for a second that the new POS system has been introduced and the Force Fields are gone. You jump into your static only to see 6 Player Own Starbases on d-scan. Great, awesome, someone lives in that system or do they? Without the Force Field on d-scan you have no idea that the POS is online or occupied WITHOUT warping to EACH and EVERY POS on d-scan.

Now, think of what will happen if a corp does a FULL MOON coverage. Think of how the w-space is littered with defunct and offline towers and without FF there is no way to know they are defunct or offline. CCP will have to come up with a solution that will indicate that a POS is offline/online on d-scan, otherwise the w-space game will be come extremely tedious. Maybe one such way is to make a Ship Berth an object that will only appear on the online tower and will be visible on overview / d-scan.


- Intel gathering. Without ships lingering behind a Force Field and without cloaky scouts, fight in w-space are going to be hard to come by. Lets for a moment dismiss the fact that getting intel on your opponent's fleet comp is beneficial. Lets just ignore that. There is another massive benefit that transparent force fields provide, they help you determine if the said opponent is forming up for a fight. The nature of w-space and the lack of local means that the ability to see ships appear on d-scan is EXTREMELY important in determining if a fight will occur. The ability to figure out what their composition will be is only a secondary benefit in my opinion.

Don't know how this can be maintained with the new system. Docking will remove the ship from d-scan and there will ability to figure out if the fight will be brought is diminished.


- POS gunning, like stated already by Rodney, is a must in w-space. Especially critical in lower class w-space system. The new POS docking / berthing system must provide intel or info to the owner on what is happening outside of the POS. However, if such info / data is given to the owner / defender then the attackers will have additional disadvantages on top of multiple obstacles they already face in invading a foreign system.

As you can see there are many aspect of the current POS setup that work really well for w-space and their removal will impact the entire aspect of this game play. I am a bit shocked and extremely appalled that CCP is making this massive proposals without actually knowing how their game is played or actively consulting with all of the communities.

I honestly hated just about every single idea they had about the new POS system. I like that they are thinking outside the box, but as it stands it sounds like it will be even more complicated, and more suited to nullsec alliances.

A POS should be just that, a player owned station. It should be, for all intents and purposes, a station similar to NPC stations. Have your main structure where you fuel it, and have compartments where you fit modules in, but let it be interacted with like an NPC station. Dock into it, spin your ship, go to your quarters, etc.

I don't see what is so difficult about this.



Want to fix our current POS system? Start by allowing us to unanchor offlined towers. That would make a lot of WH people very happy, myself included.

CCP has their reasons for not wanting to have forcefields anymore. The exact reasons got NDA'd out of the CSM minutes, but they are reasonable. As for sitting outside a new POS's docking point, you might be able to do that, but they might also have webs, points and guns to cover that exit. So if you attack that person undocking, they can just dock back up and let their defenses attack you.

I do agree that having some sot of indication via scan probes or d-scan of a pos being offline/out of fuel would be a good thing. I also agree that showing how many people are docked or maybe even what ships they have active would be a really important part of a new system. Frankly, if I have to give that up to get all the other benefits, I think it is worth it though.

CCP has their reasons for not wanting to have forcefields anymore. The exact reasons got NDA'd out of the CSM minutes, but they are reasonable. As for sitting outside a new POS's docking point, you might be able to do that, but they might also have webs, points and guns to cover that exit. So if you attack that person undocking, they can just dock back up and let their defenses attack you.

Frankly, if I have to give that up to get all the other benefits, I think it is worth it though.

As long as they don't gimp lower class wh's with "lesser POS's" I am good with change.

CCP has their reasons for not wanting to have forcefields anymore. The exact reasons got NDA'd out of the CSM minutes, but they are reasonable. As for sitting outside a new POS's docking point, you might be able to do that, but they might also have webs, points and guns to cover that exit. So if you attack that person undocking, they can just dock back up and let their defenses attack you.

I do agree that having some sot of indication via scan probes or d-scan of a pos being offline/out of fuel would be a good thing. I also agree that showing how many people are docked or maybe even what ships they have active would be a really important part of a new system. Frankly, if I have to give that up to get all the other benefits, I think it is worth it though.

The real way forward would be to create some kind of station environment that still leaves you in space. Zoom in to see your ship hangar and indulge in ship spinning, zoom out and see the space surrounding the POS/station. Including access to d-scan.

And when viewing such a POS, we can see a 'guest list' like in a station from the outside.

If there has to be POS-docking, one way to go could be to give POSes multiple undock tubes we can select, like up, down, left, right, front, rear if it's cubicle-shaped. That way in a siege the attackers would have to block all six undock tubes to prevent the inhabitants from undocking.

Of course it's only one aspect, but an important one. I'm a little concerned that Two steps personal opinions (which are legitimate of course) will pass for "what wormhole dwellers want" in sight of CCP (who obviously have little to no own knowledge of wormhole life for the most part ).

Docking is in itself a bad mechanic. A player leaves the universe and suddenly is in a windowless environment, unconnected to space and completely safe. It's even bad from an immersion point of view. Most modern games simulating a world try to be seamless, have no loading times and not have separate 'levels' but only one world where you go from one place to the next without interruptions.

The real way forward would be to create some kind of station environment that still leaves you in space. Zoom in to see your ship hangar and indulge in ship spinning, zoom out and see the space surrounding the POS/station. Including access to d-scan.

And when viewing such a POS, we can see a 'guest list' like in a station from the outside.

If there has to be POS-docking, one way to go could be to give POSes multiple undock tubes we can select, like up, down, left, right, front, rear if it's cubicle-shaped. That way in a siege the attackers would have to block all six undock tubes to prevent the inhabitants from undocking.

Perspective people, perspective. The defining difference between w-space and k-space is security status, lack of local and completely different requirements for navigation and logistics, not that w-space dwellers live in POS:s. K-psace has the exact same POS system available after all. Claiming that POS:s alone are the reason why w-space is what it is seems like a massively exaggerated kneejerk reaction to a so far uncertain change, since change is SCAAAARYYYYYYYY, and uncertainty is DOUBLEMEGASCAAARYYYY.

Seriously, current POS mechanics suck hairy monkey balls. I trust the judgement of CCP and Two Step on what could be done to change it.

CCP has their reasons for not wanting to have forcefields anymore. The exact reasons got NDA'd out of the CSM minutes, but they are reasonable. As for sitting outside a new POS's docking point, you might be able to do that, but they might also have webs, points and guns to cover that exit. So if you attack that person undocking, they can just dock back up and let their defenses attack you.

Seriuosly who voted you in for CSM? nobody wants to have docking games and station bullshit in w-space, i couldnt think of a worse way to play this game and your a complete idiot for even trying to justify being able to dock in w-space.

Station games? A big yes! Whilst we are at it let's get motherships to be able to enter wh's. Hell why not introduce cyno's to work and have local again. +1

CCP has their reasons for not wanting to have forcefields anymore. The exact reasons got NDA'd out of the CSM minutes, but they are reasonable.

and lets make the wormhole connections fixed and permanent

CCP has their reasons for not wanting to have forcefields anymore. The exact reasons got NDA'd out of the CSM minutes, but they are reasonable. As for sitting outside a new POS's docking point, you might be able to do that, but they might also have webs, points and guns to cover that exit. So if you attack that person undocking, they can just dock back up and let their defenses attack you.

I do agree that having some sot of indication via scan probes or d-scan of a pos being offline/out of fuel would be a good thing. I also agree that showing how many people are docked or maybe even what ships they have active would be a really important part of a new system. Frankly, if I have to give that up to get all the other benefits, I think it is worth it though.

It hasn't been ****** up yet, so we'd better be constructive here. If this thread degenerates into an endless rant, no one important will read it.

Ok maybe nobody will read it anyway, but there's still a chance

Right now we have very little solid information, and even CCP's reasoning behind the changes is officially under NDA. That means we don't even know what they consider problems to be fixed, much less how they propose fixing them. It's hard to be constructive when we're that in the dark.

Also, this idea of having multiple POSes on grid is terrible if there should be any sort of defense guns present.

What I would like from the new POSes:

* Being able to find a POS by dscanning, cause its pretty important in getting intel.
.

The real way forward would be to create some kind of station environment that still leaves you in space. Zoom in to see your ship hangar and indulge in ship spinning, zoom out and see the space surrounding the POS/station. Including access to d-scan.

And when viewing such a POS, we can see a 'guest list' like in a station from the outside.

If there has to be POS-docking, one way to go could be to give POSes multiple undock tubes we can select, like up, down, left, right, front, rear if it's cubicle-shaped. That way in a siege the attackers would have to block all six undock tubes to prevent the inhabitants from undocking.

I do agree that having some sot of indication via scan probes or d-scan of a pos being offline/out of fuel would be a good thing. I also agree that showing how many people are docked or maybe even what ships they have active would be a really important part of a new system. Frankly, if I have to give that up to get all the other benefits, I think it is worth it though.

I don't.

I'm willing to give up new and shiny tools for POSes that work. I don't think new and shiny is synonymous with working. If CCP wants to add functionality by introducing new shiny, then for the love of Bob please remind them that functionality needs to be preserved with their new shiny too. Since this is a "when it's done" feature (as far as I can tell) then I am willing to wait for it to be done right. Thus far, I haven't seen anything that I want omgthatmuch. Maybe it looked better in person, but in text it simply isn't that appealing.

What I want to keep:
- The ability to log in and see my bros! Friendly intel is good too when you're figuring out what you want to do that day. Likewise, the ability to chillax in space at the POS.
- The ability to be a creepy voyeur watching other people at their POSes. It's really nice to see what other people are doing and what ships they're flying. As long as I can see all active pilots at a POS, what ships they're flying, and what POS mods they're interacting with as applicable, it's fine if you add an animation where the ships tap-dance around our new deathstar overlords. I'd like to be able to see the ships on dscan too.
- The ability to jump into a wormhole and see whether POSes are online or offline at a glance.
- The ability to find POSes without dropping probes.
- POS gunning! I have a soft spot in my heart for this (and it's really cool and useful, though the interface is not cool at all).
- Shared hangar and item space.

What I want that we don't have:
- A way to enable audit logging or some other record of ships taken out/put into SMAs or whatever their replacements may be.
- Better roles! The amount of access you need in order to do industry is silly. More granularity in allowing access to various things is much desired.
- Refitting T3s at POSes somehow. A special module, some way of doing it while it's in the hangar, anything.
- Refining with the tools we have available sucks. This doesn't need to be addressed with POSes, but it sucks.
- Better personal item storage. Cans and ship cargo holds get tedious.
- Springboarding off of the former, better blueprint identification. They don't have to be locked to a person, but some way of putting a "this is mine!" or "this is for corp!" tag on it aside from everyone having to use a separate hangar division/all the cans in the world would be excellent.
- POS interfaces that don't make people suffer.
- Inspired by post above me: repackaging things at POSes!

That's all I can think off of the top of my head; I may remember some other stuff later.

I don't want docking in lieu of force fields. I don't want to replace POS guns with "station guns". I still want the environment we have with POSes. I just want these POS improvements to make things more better, not stations lite. Make the super docking thing with an undock something that you can't anchor in w-space or without sov or something if you really want that.

What I want from the new system:

...

Edit: I don't think docking games will be too awful, its certainly better than watching things in a POS bubble knowing that there isn't anything you can do about it.

[quote=Two step]

...

What I want that we don't have:
- A way to enable audit logging or some other record of ships taken out/put into SMAs or whatever their replacements may be.
- Better roles! The amount of access you need in order to do industry is silly. More granularity in allowing access to various things is much desired.
- Refitting T3s at POSes somehow. A special module, some way of doing it while it's in the hangar, anything.
- Refining with the tools we have available sucks. This doesn't need to be addressed with POSes, but it sucks.
- Better personal item storage. Cans and ship cargo holds get tedious.
- Springboarding off of the former, better blueprint identification. They don't have to be locked to a person, but some way of putting a "this is mine!" or "this is for corp!" tag on it aside from everyone having to use a separate hangar division/all the cans in the world would be excellent.
- POS interfaces that don't make people suffer.
- Inspired by post above me: repackaging things at POSes!
edit: Two more things I thought of:
- Some kind of vending machine where corp/alliance members can purchase goods directly from the corp/alliance without having to go through the rigamarole of finding the right item and figuring out the correct price and putting it in the right wallet division.
- Once establishments come out, establishment modules where you can moor/move into their sphere of access and do establishment-y things. This won't be relevant until establishments happen, because I'm pretty sure no one wants a module that lets them walk around a mostly empty room and look at a door that they can't open.

That's all I can think off of the top of my head; I may remember some other stuff later.

I don't want docking in lieu of force fields. I don't want to replace POS guns with "station guns". I still want the environment we have with POSes. I just want these POS improvements to make things more better, not stations lite. Make the super docking thing with an undock something that you can't anchor in w-space or without sov or something if you really want that.

CCP has their reasons for not wanting to have forcefields anymore. The exact reasons got NDA'd out of the CSM minutes, but they are reasonable. As for sitting outside a new POS's docking point, you might be able to do that, but they might also have webs, points and guns to cover that exit. So if you attack that person undocking, they can just dock back up and let their defenses attack you.

I do agree that having some sot of indication via scan probes or d-scan of a pos being offline/out of fuel would be a good thing. I also agree that showing how many people are docked or maybe even what ships they have active would be a really important part of a new system. Frankly, if I have to give that up to get all the other benefits, I think it is worth it though.

CCP has their reasons for not wanting to have forcefields anymore. The exact reasons got NDA'd out of the CSM minutes, but they are reasonable. As for sitting outside a new POS's docking point, you might be able to do that, but they might also have webs, points and guns to cover that exit. So if you attack that person undocking, they can just dock back up and let their defenses attack you.

I do agree that having some sot of indication via scan probes or d-scan of a pos being offline/out of fuel would be a good thing. I also agree that showing how many people are docked or maybe even what ships they have active would be a really important part of a new system. Frankly, if I have to give that up to get all the other benefits, I think it is worth it though.

Of course it's only one aspect, but an important one. I'm a little concerned that Two steps personal opinions (which are legitimate of course) will pass for "what wormhole dwellers want" in sight of CCP (who obviously have little to no own knowledge of wormhole life for the most part ).

Just wanted to comment on this (and many posts like it). First of all, I don't just present my personal opinions to CCP. I read threads like this, and try to present as many of the opinions I can. For example, I don't care at all about refitting T3s at a POS, but I regularly bug CCP about fixing it.

Secondly, a *lot* of CCPers are in w-space. From CCP Soundwave on down, w-space is very popular with CCPers, for the same reason it is popular with all of us.

Three pages of negative responses from the WH community to the changes and lack of information presented to us in the CSM minutes and that's all the response you give?

Amarr Empire is wormhole space now?

Get off the guy's back, he's clearly reading the thread, let's be constructive and not a bunch of forum shitposters.

Secondly, a *lot* of CCPers are in w-space. From CCP Soundwave on down, w-space is very popular with CCPers, for the same reason it is popular with all of us.

CCP has been exploring adding mooring modules that would protect a ship that was able to physically get near the module with a small force field around just the ship. This system might replace ship maintenance arrays.
Two step pointed out that this system might be nice for docking as well, so that people can get some indication of how many people are active in a starbase, especially in w-space where there is no local chat.

CCP Greyscale suggested that perhaps the larger power cores might require freighters to move around, which would prevent them from getting into lower class wormholes.

I also agree that showing how many people are docked or maybe even what ships they have active would be a really important part of a new system. Frankly, if I have to give that up to get all the other benefits, I think it is worth it though.

CCP has their reasons for not wanting to have forcefields anymore. The exact reasons got NDA'd out of the CSM minutes, but they are reasonable.

CCP has their reasons for not wanting to have forcefields anymore. The exact reasons got NDA'd out of the CSM minutes, but they are reasonable. As for sitting outside a new POS's docking point, you might be able to do that, but they might also have webs, points and guns to cover that exit. So if you attack that person undocking, they can just dock back up and let their defenses attack you.

I do agree that having some sot of indication via scan probes or d-scan of a pos being offline/out of fuel would be a good thing. I also agree that showing how many people are docked or maybe even what ships they have active would be a really important part of a new system. Frankly, if I have to give that up to get all the other benefits, I think it is worth it though.

Reading through the thread, I think a lot of people need to re-read the minutes. Specifically:



(Note that this might also apply to the docking module)

One thing that wasn't in the minutes, because it was talked about outside the summit, was that mooring would be the primary way that people interact with a POS, and the docking module would be more expensive (and/or perhaps require a freighter to move).

As for the NPC corp alt that doesn't feel I am doing a good job representing them, feel free to run against me next time. Of course, I don't think you will do that, since you would probably have to run with your main.

Two step, now that you're writing that I realize that it wasn't the minutes itself that resulted in strong reactions, but your post in this thread:



Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but what I'm reading here is: Yeah, forcefields are important and all, and we should be able to see people in POSes, but "if I have to give that up to get all the other benefits, I think it is worth it though".

One thing that wasn't in the minutes, because it was talked about outside the summit, was that mooring would be the primary way that people interact with a POS, and the docking module would be more expensive (and/or perhaps require a freighter to move).

I understand that lots of folks are worried about docking games, and I have a couple of responses:
1) Docking modules will not be on every POS. They will at least cost a lot of fuel to operate, and may not fit into lower class wormholes at all
2) Being docked is, as was pointed out, both an advantage an a disadvantage. When docked you don't have intel on what is going on outside the POS, and people don't know what you are flying.
3) Docking in a POS will be different than at a station. For one thing, you have guns, webs and points on your POS to attack campers. Consider the situation right now, how many of you camp random POSes with defenses online?
4) How are docking games any worse than forcefield games right now? With a forcefield, you can even enter while agressed, unlike docking currently (though I have no idea if POS docking would have the same restrictions).

Just wanted to comment on this (and many posts like it). First of all, I don't just present my personal opinions to CCP. I read threads like this, and try to present as many of the opinions I can. For example, I don't care at all about refitting T3s at a POS, but I regularly bug CCP about fixing it.

Secondly, a *lot* of CCPers are in w-space. From CCP Soundwave on down, w-space is very popular with CCPers, for the same reason it is popular with all of us.

[quote=Two step]Forcefield is one of the integral parts in w-space. It lets you be in space and have a buffer from the hostile environment. It also allows you to manage your POS without fear of being ganked by some random cloaky SB. Removing force-fields will make POSes more like stations in k-space and no one wants station games.

CCP mentions that they do not want Jesus features. From what I have read in the minutes this POS revamp sounds like a Jesus feature. There is no need to fix what is not broken!

I would rather have current a bit broken system than a new one without FF.

- It has not had its initial direction pinned down
- ItGÇÖs not had any kind of formal design assessment
- ItGÇÖs not had any kind of formal technical assessment
- ItGÇÖs not had any kind of formal art assessment
- ItGÇÖs not had any kind of formal QA assessment
- Nothing has been signed off by anybody at any stage of the decision-making process, beyond the initial instruction to begin concept work

3) Force fields (or lack thereof). CCP wants to have docking modules, but they don't want them to be cheap, and they may want to limit the number of ships that can be docked. CCP has been exploring adding mooring modules that would protect a ship that was able to physically get near the module with a small force field around just the ship. This system might replace ship maintenance arrays.
Two step pointed out that this system might be nice for docking as well, so that people can get some indication of how many people are active in a starbase, especially in w-space where there is no local chat.

Forcefield is one of the integral parts in w-space. It lets you be in space and have a buffer from the hostile environment. It also allows you to manage your POS without fear of being ganked by some random cloaky SB

Things you get from docking: (off the top of my head, and in no particular order)
1) Markets
2) Contracts
3) Secure Trade
4) Ship spinning
5) Captains Quarters/Whatever other Incarna stuff shows up
6) Assemble/refit T3s
7) Fit from saved fittings
8) Access to personal and shared storage
9) Repackaging, repairing, refining
10) Real container access
11) Real access rights, including the different corp hangar access for "based at" vs "other" stations
12) Possibly in the future, the ability to switch clones (not jump clone into and out of w-space, but switch implant sets)

W-space is about lack of information, and making people work hard just to survive there.

Relax.. You guys are getting all hyped over nothing...Sounds to me like they are just getting ideas, and haven't thought about possible game-play consequences yet. Wich is good, you don't want to restrict brainstorming because that will block `out of the box` ideas.

I think this is 100% wrong. W-space is about lack of information, and making people work hard just to survive there. The exact mechanics of a forcefield or no forcefield has nothing at all to do with the reason people enjoy living in w-space. I'd challenge *anyone* to ask people for their top 10 reasons they like w-space and see POSes *anywhere* on that list. POSes (in their current form) are something we all *suffer* through in order to live in w-space, not the reason w-space is good. People like w-space because of the small gang fights, or because there is no local, or because the PVE is harder than most k-space, they don't love bouncing off POS mods when trying to warp or having to enter a POS password every single time you want to pick up some ammo.

Things you get from docking: (off the top of my head, and in no particular order)
1) Markets
2) Contracts
3) Secure Trade
4) Ship spinning
5) Captains Quarters/Whatever other Incarna stuff shows up
6) Assemble/refit T3s
7) Fit from saved fittings
8) Access to personal and shared storage
9) Repackaging, repairing, refining
10) Real container access
11) Real access rights, including the different corp hangar access for "based at" vs "other" stations
12) Possibly in the future, the ability to switch clones (not jump clone into and out of w-space, but switch implant sets)

The main point with docking is that we can see from the current system that CCP is bad at maintaining 2 separate systems for how players interact with hangars and storage. Getting docking means that whatever features and improvements CCP makes to the station interface comes for free for wormhole people.

Clearly I need to write up another blog post about this, because I think folks are missing the point here. I fully agree that docking would change things, but I also think some change is really good for folks.

I also wanted to respond to one specific point from Chitsa and Rroff:


I think this is 100% wrong. W-space is about lack of information, and making people work hard just to survive there. The exact mechanics of a forcefield or no forcefield has nothing at all to do with the reason people enjoy living in w-space. I'd challenge *anyone* to ask people for their top 10 reasons they like w-space and see POSes *anywhere* on that list. POSes (in their current form) are something we all *suffer* through in order to live in w-space, not the reason w-space is good. People like w-space because of the small gang fights, or because there is no local, or because the PVE is harder than most k-space, they don't love bouncing off POS mods when trying to warp or having to enter a POS password every single time you want to pick up some ammo.

Things you get from docking: (off the top of my head, and in no particular order)
1) Markets
2) Contracts
3) Secure Trade
4) Ship spinning
5) Captains Quarters/Whatever other Incarna stuff shows up
6) Assemble/refit T3s
7) Fit from saved fittings
8) Access to personal and shared storage
9) Repackaging, repairing, refining
10) Real container access
11) Real access rights, including the different corp hangar access for "based at" vs "other" stations
12) Possibly in the future, the ability to switch clones (not jump clone into and out of w-space, but switch implant sets)

The main point with docking is that we can see from the current system that CCP is bad at maintaining 2 separate systems for how players interact with hangars and storage. Getting docking means that whatever features and improvements CCP makes to the station interface comes for free for wormhole people.

Clearly I need to write up another blog post about this, because I think folks are missing the point here. I fully agree that docking would change things, but I also think some change is really good for folks.

I also wanted to respond to one specific point from Chitsa and Rroff:


I think this is 100% wrong. W-space is about lack of information, and making people work hard just to survive there. The exact mechanics of a forcefield or no forcefield has nothing at all to do with the reason people enjoy living in w-space. I'd challenge *anyone* to ask people for their top 10 reasons they like w-space and see POSes *anywhere* on that list. POSes (in their current form) are something we all *suffer* through in order to live in w-space, not the reason w-space is good. People like w-space because of the small gang fights, or because there is no local, or because the PVE is harder than most k-space, they don't love bouncing off POS mods when trying to warp or having to enter a POS password every single time you want to pick up some ammo.

I think this is 100% wrong. W-space is about lack of information, and making people work hard just to survive there. The exact mechanics of a forcefield or no forcefield has nothing at all to do with the reason people enjoy living in w-space. I'd challenge *anyone* to ask people for their top 10 reasons they like w-space and see POSes *anywhere* on that list. POSes (in their current form) are something we all *suffer* through in order to live in w-space, not the reason w-space is good. People like w-space because of the small gang fights, or because there is no local, or because the PVE is harder than most k-space, they don't love bouncing off POS mods when trying to warp or having to enter a POS password every single time you want to pick up some ammo.

As for the NPC corp alt that doesn't feel I am doing a good job representing them, feel free to run against me next time. Of course, I don't think you will do that, since you would probably have to run with your main.

How are docking games any worse than forcefield games right now?

(Note that this might also apply to the docking module)

One thing that wasn't in the minutes, because it was talked about outside the summit, was that mooring would be the primary way that people interact with a POS, and the docking module would be more expensive (and/or perhaps require a freighter to move).

As for the NPC corp alt that doesn't feel I am doing a good job representing them, feel free to run against me next time. Of course, I don't think you will do that, since you would probably have to run with your main.

Things you get from docking: (off the top of my head, and in no particular order)
1) Markets
2) Contracts
3) Secure Trade
4) Ship spinning
5) Captains Quarters/Whatever other Incarna stuff shows up
6) Assemble/refit T3s
7) Fit from saved fittings
8) Access to personal and shared storage
9) Repackaging, repairing, refining
10) Real container access
11) Real access rights, including the different corp hangar access for "based at" vs "other" stations
12) Possibly in the future, the ability to switch clones (not jump clone into and out of w-space, but switch implant sets)

The main point with docking is that we can see from the current system that CCP is bad at maintaining 2 separate systems for how players interact with hangars and storage. Getting docking means that whatever features and improvements CCP makes to the station interface comes for free for wormhole people.

Clearly I need to write up another blog post about this, because I think folks are missing the point here. I fully agree that docking would change things, but I also think some change is really good for folks.

I also wanted to respond to one specific point from Chitsa and Rroff:


I think this is 100% wrong. W-space is about lack of information, and making people work hard just to survive there. The exact mechanics of a forcefield or no forcefield has nothing at all to do with the reason people enjoy living in w-space. I'd challenge *anyone* to ask people for their top 10 reasons they like w-space and see POSes *anywhere* on that list. POSes (in their current form) are something we all *suffer* through in order to live in w-space, not the reason w-space is good. People like w-space because of the small gang fights, or because there is no local, or because the PVE is harder than most k-space, they don't love bouncing off POS mods when trying to warp or having to enter a POS password every single time you want to pick up some ammo.

If this is in fact that CCP is unwilling to put the time and effort into developing two seperate UIs, one for docking and one for nPOS hangar functionality (which would be a true POS re-work, as we have now been promised for ages) then I neither find it reasonable as an argument or reasonable to NDA it; we should have the right to know if this boils down to a lack of willingness to commit resources to spaceships in space by CCP.

I also wanted to respond to one specific point from Chitsa and Rroff:


I think this is 100% wrong. W-space is about lack of information, and making people work hard just to survive there. The exact mechanics of a forcefield or no forcefield has nothing at all to do with the reason people enjoy living in w-space. I'd challenge *anyone* to ask people for their top 10 reasons they like w-space and see POSes *anywhere* on that list. POSes (in their current form) are something we all *suffer* through in order to live in w-space, not the reason w-space is good. People like w-space because of the small gang fights, or because there is no local, or because the PVE is harder than most k-space, they don't love bouncing off POS mods when trying to warp or having to enter a POS password every single time you want to pick up some ammo.

Things you get from docking: (off the top of my head, and in no particular order)
1) Markets
2) Contracts
3) Secure Trade
4) Ship spinning
5) Captains Quarters/Whatever other Incarna stuff shows up
6) Assemble/refit T3s
7) Fit from saved fittings
8) Access to personal and shared storage
9) Repackaging, repairing, refining
10) Real container access
11) Real access rights, including the different corp hangar access for "based at" vs "other" stations
12) Possibly in the future, the ability to switch clones (not jump clone into and out of w-space, but switch implant sets)

The main point with docking is that we can see from the current system that CCP is bad at maintaining 2 separate systems for how players interact with hangars and storage. Getting docking means that whatever features and improvements CCP makes to the station interface comes for free for wormhole people.

Clearly I need to write up another blog post about this, because I think folks are missing the point here. I fully agree that docking would change things, but I also think some change is really good for folks.

I also wanted to respond to one specific point from Chitsa and Rroff:


I think this is 100% wrong. W-space is about lack of information, and making people work hard just to survive there. The exact mechanics of a forcefield or no forcefield has nothing at all to do with the reason people enjoy living in w-space. I'd challenge *anyone* to ask people for their top 10 reasons they like w-space and see POSes *anywhere* on that list. POSes (in their current form) are something we all *suffer* through in order to live in w-space, not the reason w-space is good. People like w-space because of the small gang fights, or because there is no local, or because the PVE is harder than most k-space, they don't love bouncing off POS mods when trying to warp or having to enter a POS password every single time you want to pick up some ammo.

I also wanted to respond to one specific point from Chitsa and Rroff:


I think this is 100% wrong. W-space is about lack of information, and making people work hard just to survive there. The exact mechanics of a forcefield or no forcefield has nothing at all to do with the reason people enjoy living in w-space. I'd challenge *anyone* to ask people for their top 10 reasons they like w-space and see POSes *anywhere* on that list. POSes (in their current form) are something we all *suffer* through in order to live in w-space, not the reason w-space is good. People like w-space because of the small gang fights, or because there is no local, or because the PVE is harder than most k-space, they don't love bouncing off POS mods when trying to warp or having to enter a POS password every single time you want to pick up some ammo.

pile of trolling snipped

Yeah, because what this thread really needs is more total exaggeration and a few terrible ideas.

As I said, I need to write up a longer blog post to more fully explain my ideas, which I will try to do this weekend. I think people are worrying *far* too much about docking games, and things like contracts would simply make it more convenient for people to live in w-space. Note that I didn't say *easier*, but some of you people are acting like fighting against the UI is a lot more fun than fighting people.

Yeah, because what this thread really needs is more total exaggeration and a few terrible ideas.

People might not like to fight against the UI but what they love to do is fight against each other. You have multiple pages of explanations and discussions on how the changes proposed in CSM minutes will reduce the potential for fun fights. Might I recommend that you focus on that? Tell us how new POSes and how your ideas will bring us more pew instead of little gimmicks like Contracts and Markets.

THIS. 99% of the people in wormhole space don't give a rats rectum about docking, markets, etc... We care about changing T3 subs, making pos security better and having a place for us to store our crap. Forcefields don't need to be gone for that to happen. Docking doesn't need to take place for that to happen. It honestly seems like CCP wants to reinvent the wheel, when it isn't really needed.

The whole K.I.S.S attitude should apply here (Keep It Simple Stupid) Wormhole space is one of the few places in Eve that isn't butchered to all hell. Let's keep it that way.

I'm a little unsure about the "market" and "contracts" part, but everything else looks good in principle. The concept of player markets in w-space is...weird. I suspect it would be about as rare as player-owned freeports in nullsec, and far more dangerous for the person owning the POS because you're basically advertising "lots of crap in this pinata, come get some". Not inherently opposed, even an in-corp market would be useful for paying for corp mods.

rubbish

I'm pretty depressed by what I see happening here and I wonder, Two Step, if you actually GÇö albeit just for a moment GÇö step outside the debate and look at what this amounts to with an objective eye, you would see the great travesty in the making that the chorus of w-space players here do. I wonder also if you might have the character to truly question, of yourself, if GÇö sucked in by the trappings of CCP 'stakeholding' GÇö you may actually have lost the very perspective that galvanized this community to elect you. I'm direct on this point because it matters; on this most fundamental issue to your term; you've got it wrong; CCP have got it wrong, and this is what you should be telling them with every fibre of your mandate. For this is a move to completely shelve the long-promised POS re-vamp and replace it with a straight dump of the existing station/docked game code with a bit of new artwork and a few bells and whistles, and it stands to ruin one of the fundamentals; one of the things that makes w-space w-space.

It's pretty jaw-dropping to a lot of us that you want a dump in w-space.

All those complains about docking, are you just trolling two step? When do we ever fight at a POS? Fight in wh space happen on sites, on WH or at POCOs. The only time we fight at a POS is when we bash them and the only thing we kill there, mostly, are capital that committed to the fight.

How is dockable POS going to change that?

About the other complains. It will allow defenders to hide their numbers and their fleet composition. But the hunters have such an advantage in w-space, that that change is a good thing imho.

The only challenges with the new POS are how do we find them and can any cloues be given on how active they are. CCP needs to find a design solution for those challenges.

I hope they make you sing something extremely embarrassing on TS or at least punch you in the neck.

All those complains about docking, are you just trolling two step? When do we ever fight at a POS? Fight in wh space happen on sites, on WH or at POCOs. The only time we fight at a POS is when we bash them and the only thing we kill there, mostly, are capital that committed to the fight.

How is dockable POS going to change that?

About the other complains. It will allow defenders to hide their numbers and their fleet composition. But the hunters have such an advantage in w-space, that that change is a good thing imho.

The only challenges with the new POS are how do we find them and can any cloues be given on how active they are. CCP needs to find a design solution for those challenges.

W-space is about lack of information, and making people work hard just to survive there. The exact mechanics of a forcefield or no forcefield has nothing at all to do with the reason people enjoy living in w-space. I'd challenge *anyone* to ask people for their top 10 reasons they like w-space and see POSes *anywhere* on that list.

The only challenges with the new POS are how do we find them and can any cloues be given on how active they are. CCP needs to find a design solution for those challenges.

If I have to drop combat probes to find someones POS, the sneaky factor goes to 0, and wh space goes to ****.

People might not like to fight against the UI but what they love to do is fight against each other. You have multiple pages of explanations and discussions on how the changes proposed in CSM minutes will reduce the potential for fun fights. Might I recommend that you focus on that? Tell us how new POSes and how your ideas will bring us more pew instead of little gimmicks like Contracts and Markets.

well i'd rather wait for more info on stuff before making judgements ccp is pretty terrible for changing stuff at the last minute.

Things we need:

Being able to check online/offline towers through dscan

come one, why are you so lazy?!?! you can already do that, with adding forcefields to the overview....

come one, why are you so lazy?!?! you can already do that, with adding forcefields to the overview....

i'll give you a guide, on one of your overview tabs (the scouting one) add forcefields from filters, then, when you're dscanning for poses ( you know how to do that, right) lower the angle so that you can only see the towers from a single planet (let's say you're doing this from the sun). if the planet has a pos on one of it's moons with no forcefields, it's offline, if it doesn't, it's not. boom, fixed.

P.S. if a planet has more then one pos, warp to the planet at 100 or whatever pleases you, turn on moon brackets (shift+alt+x i think) and do the same, but looking at the moons.

P.P.S. stop asking for handouts, do your work as a scout.

Im not sure if anybody thought about this, but... How is gonna rorqual compression work without a force field?

and to those wanting clone access in WH space all i can say is that you are nuts.

podding people is a way to remove people from the WH and a direct meter on winning the fight as they have helluva lot harder to get back into the fight for said WH.

THIS. 99% of the people in wormhole space don't give a rats rectum about docking, markets, etc... We care about changing T3 subs, making pos security better and having a place for us to store our crap. Forcefields don't need to be gone for that to happen. Docking doesn't need to take place for that to happen. It honestly seems like CCP wants to reinvent the wheel, when it isn't really needed.

The whole K.I.S.S attitude should apply here (Keep It Simple Stupid) Wormhole space is one of the few places in Eve that isn't butchered to all hell. Let's keep it that way.

Thinking about Forcefields, what do you think about its removal?

Im a bit half and half about the situation. The radius of forcefields around poses makes a lot of weapon systems and ships unable to hit the tower.

But at the same time it provides a niche for certain weapon systems like torpedoes.

IMHO, docking games will be better than force field games. By games, I mean when the defender get out of the POS to alpha a weak ship or to kill a bubble but don't want to commit to a fight.

Currently, with force field, the defender will get some few hundred meters out of the force field and shoot something. The siege fleet will rep what the defender is shooting and send some ships over to try to bump him off. As soon as a ship come too close, the defender get back in and try again on the opposite side. it's quite boring, but one of the less boring of POS bashing activities, so we still play it even if the chance to bump him off correctly and in time is so low.

With a dock, the defender undock, shoot for some time until he need to deaggress to redock. The sieging fleet has one minute to bump out of the undock him and any logistic or carrier undocking to rep (by then, hopefully, repping will give aggression and prevent the ship from docking right away).

Also, defender might be more willing to get out to commit to a fight since if it's easier to surprise the sieging fleet (or ganking fleet if it is to go help a corp mate being ambushed).

Personally, as long as we can sneakily judge if a POS is active or not, I am ok with the occupant fleet composition being hidden. CCP could design those POS with visual clues of activity or we could have a POS scanner.

/me still waiting for TwoStep to post blog post about POSes

As promised, my blog post is up: http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/08/response-to-response-on-pos-redesign.html

That link isn't to my pod, BTW...

Docking Games

In the threads, the biggest problem people have with the system that was discussed is that a docking module would bring k-space style "docking games" to wormhole space. I understand this concern, but I do not think it will be nearly as big of a problem as some people seem to think. There are a couple of reasons for this:
1) We already have "forcefield games", and people just don't complain about that all that much. The difference would probably be fairly minor between the two mechanisms.
2) The vast majority of fights in w-space are not outside a POS, they are at wormholes or in sites. The new POS system will still have POS defenses, and that means the new system probably wouldn't change where people fight.

soooo you just did say .... the fact we already have"""" forcefield games""""" makes docking games not that bad... this is the same logic as We killed peoples in the old times so its ok if we start killing people now for no reason..... this is a knockout argument.... and totaly wrong


Also i see WH-¦s gonna failscading in a few months... so i will enjoy my time left in WH and then go to something else maybe another game

no direct offense twosteps but i think ccp make WH like or likely 0.0 and i have no intentions of playing in WH which are like/ly 0.0 so i gonna pull the only protest a company understand

Can I have your stuff?

I disagree with your conclusions. Can you please explain to me how docking games are different than forcefield games? I'm still waiting for anyone to show the supposed major change that would result from docking. In 3 years of living (and fighting) in w-space, I can probably count on one hand the number of real fights I have had outside a POS, and I can't see how docking would change a single one of them.

^this is also an excellent point.
many WH groups have 20+ POSs in their system.
what's going to happen if you put up 20 deathstars on the same grid? will be impossible to take out with anything you can field in a WH.
definitely needs limits

Can I have your stuff?

I disagree with your conclusions. Can you please explain to me how docking games are different than forcefield games? I'm still waiting for anyone to show the supposed major change that would result from docking. In 3 years of living (and fighting) in w-space, I can probably count on one hand the number of real fights I have had outside a POS, and I can't see how docking would change a single one of them.

If they were to remove the defences and make it so that you had to undock they could camp you easily which makes for boring game play.

They said they wanted to remove POS defences which is one of my biggest gripes.

As promised, my blog post is up: http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/08/response-to-response-on-pos-redesign.html

That link isn't to my pod, BTW...

In 3 years of living (and fighting) in w-space, I can probably count on one hand the number of real fights I have had outside a POS, and I can't see how docking would change a single one of them.

1) We already have "forcefield games", and people just don't complain about that all that much. The difference would probably be fairly minor between the two mechanisms.

Docking GÇô Those that are saying undocking games are worse than station games are only kidding yourself. You just donGÇÖt like the idea of docking in general. Think about it seriously, if all the carebears dock up.. they canGÇÖt see how many are bashing their POS. They can be bumped off of the undock. They canGÇÖt self destruct their caps. It will make wormhole space a bit more ruthless than it is now, people will have to start fighting to survive.

oh and lets not forget how utterly fantastic using the new unified inventory would be if we had twenty towers worth of smas, chas, etc on grid at once

lmao

oh well it was a good run. Wormholes were great for a couple of years. RIP wh space.

As promised, my blog post is up: http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/08/response-to-response-on-pos-redesign.html

That link isn't to my pod, BTW...

Docking games. Hell no. This whole idea is asinine and if you make w-space like k-space, people will simply leave w-space, and I think a large portion may just leave Eve altogether. W-space is a refuge from the bs that goes on in the rest of Eve and to take that away would be catastrophic.

1) We already have "forcefield games", and people just don't complain about that all that much. The difference would probably be fairly minor between the two mechanisms.

Now that we know why FF's are being removed

That's highly presumptive. Your reasoning is plausible, but to take that as fact is silly.

@TwoStep: How set is CCP on getting rid of forcefields?

Do they want them gone to mesh with new features as Papiranti suggests? Do they want them gone because coding them is a nightmare? Or is there some technical reason that they have to go?

Bottom line, are forcefields realistically up for debate, or should we be focusing on ways to get what we want from a new system?

Do they want them gone to mesh with new features as Papiranti suggests? Do they want them gone because coding them is a nightmare? Or is there some technical reason that they have to go?

I think the actual primary reasons behind removing FFs are the problems they create for ship-based weaponry (range is really an issue on any size of close range weapon, when assaulting a POS) and the problems they present for the POS's very own weapons (Hello Blasters, yes I am looking especially at you).

but most of you won't engage without 20-30 man fleets with dread support, logi and Falcons out the ass. ]

Blahj blah blah

Some random statements:.

So basically you did not address anything. All you did was just say docking games are kinda sorta almost completely unlike force field games so its all cool. Then you said yes, we should be able to find online POSes but because we can possibly steal them and make a measly side profit on them we should now lose the ability to conduct covert recon. You did not address the following points at all:

-Multiple POSes on Grid
-POSes anchorable away from celestials will require active probe scan thus ruining covert aspect of w-space
-Ability for system defenders to conduct d-scan from inside the POS

I don't know man, this seems like a pretty poor response to an extensive discussion. You haven't really addresses any of our concerns, you just expanded on your previous points that were already deemed irrelevant to the regular w-space dweller.

I'm not expecting an answer to the "why" question; I just want to know if, based on what TwoStep knows, forcefields are up for debate or not. If he already knows they have to go, then no sense pissing in the wind with complaints. Time for ideas to make the upcoming system work for us.

Disclaimer: Long post. Two Step; please read.
(long post snipped)

Clones GÇô
Not to mention that if normal clones are introduced to these new starbases: If IGÇÖm a new player and IGÇÖm away for a week or more from the game, and my only clone is set at a starbase in unknown space. That starbase could be wiped out and I come back to the game with no SP left, my clone is destroyed and me being a new player I have to start over again.

I say it in that way because if it was me, keeping that game mechanic in mind I would never put my primary clone in wormhole space.

Also, will all the modules/ships/corpses drop of people that were docked up and stored at the starbase? Or do you have to shoot all the modules individually after youGÇÖve destroyed the initial starbase core.

Shield reinforce timers GÇô are they going to exist still? Do we still have shields even though there looks to be no shields on a starbase? Or is the new starbase format going to be similar to a ship where you see hardeners active on the ship/starbase. Or is there just going to be a mini shield near the undock as the minutes suggest?

Docking GÇô Those that are saying undocking games are worse than station games are only kidding yourself. You just donGÇÖt like the idea of docking in general. Think about it seriously, if all the carebears dock up.. they canGÇÖt see how many are bashing their POS. They can be bumped off of the undock. They canGÇÖt self destruct their caps. It will make wormhole space a bit more ruthless than it is now, people will have to start fighting to survive.

I will try to keep it brief and I apologize if I have duplicated anything said in the previous 9 pages.

First, I support changes to the POS system. WH dwellers desperately need better user-specific security and roles, not to mention storage options. Changes can be good, and I certainly don't hit this with a blanket "Don't change anything in w-space!". But, I have some concerns...

First, and some will not agree, but the idea of making C4 and below w-space corps live in substandard (medium) or small) POS is insulting. KAIRS lives in a C2 because it is part of how we play the game. We could live in a C5/C6 but simply choose not to for a variety of sandboxy reasons. After seeing the insides of hundreds of wh, one thing is clear, VERY FEW people know how to correctly set up a POS. So the idea that C4 and below are impenetrable fortresses is sadly mistaken. But, as many people can attest to, if someone wants to burn your system, it can be done. It all depends on determination. So having said that, to make C4 and below residents live in "lesser" POS (not large), is a hell of a slap in the face. Not to mention how much more difficult it will make life if for instance, they have less capabilities as they would under the current model. Anyways, I and my corp have a lot of anger building over this potential change and see it as potentially a wh breaker for us.

Docking games. Hell no. This whole idea is asinine and if you make w-space like k-space, people will simply leave w-space, and I think a large portion may just leave Eve altogether. W-space is a refuge from the bs that goes on in the rest of Eve and to take that away would be catastrophic. Now, docking modules where you could see ships but not attack them, hmmm, maybe that is workable. But again, for the love of God, no docking games...

Multiple POS at a moon on the same grid. Interesting. Gonna wait and see where this goes. Same for LOS shooting.

Scouting and Intel Gathering. Gonna have to digest this a bit more as small changes to the proposed POS could vary this greatly. Going to be tough to balance this.

I am not trying to be outlandish here, or brag, but w-space PVP is what KAIRS does. And you don't have to live in a C5/C6 to be a "real" w-space corp. Proof - http://whkills.info/stats/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=98 , just look at the w-space kills. Two Step, we have some folks that would love to talk to you personally (and potentially CCP) to discuss some of the potential POS changes. I think a dialogue is important, and we are willing to spend the time to help make this successful because we all see that change is going to happen regardless of how loud people scream. Lol.

-Nash
CEO - The Kairos Syndicate [KAIRS]
A Founding Member of Transmission Lost [LOST]

I'm going to skip the docking games stuff as I really do think it would be completely different than in k-space

Defenders not being able to d-scan from inside their POS sounds like a feature to me. If you want intel, you need to undock. This is somewhat a balance to providing possibly less intel to the attacker when you are docked...

You have deemed my points irrelevant, that doesn't mean the supposed "regular" w-space dweller has done so. In fact, the vast majority of the feedback on the minutes I get outside of this thread is actually very positive for the changes

You have deemed my points irrelevant, that doesn't mean the supposed "regular" w-space dweller has done so. In fact, the vast majority of the feedback on the minutes I get outside of this thread is actually very positive for the changes.

as for the things I supposedly didn't address:
Multiple POSes on grid I talked about in the post right before your post! I do have concerns about them, and I think CCP needs to think about a system like limiting the amount of guns that could be on a single grid, or something similar. In general, just like the current system, POSes should be defended by ships, not by turrets.

POS anchoring locations is certainly a concern. I think this falls pretty far into the "it hasn't been designed yet" camp though. Perhaps most POSes will be findable with the built in scanner? Perhaps they will be on the overview unless you spend lots of extra power on cloaking modules (which are again, just an idea)? Perhaps it is a good thing that someone could be sitting in a POS you don't know about and surprise you?

Defenders not being able to d-scan from inside their POS sounds like a feature to me. If you want intel, you need to undock. This is somewhat a balance to providing possibly less intel to the attacker when you are docked...

I certainly understand your position, but I don't think it is fair to allow, for example, the same level of defensive firepower in a C1 that someone could have in a C6. If the attackers can't use a dread (without spending weeks building it in place), you should have less firepower available as well. You guys have made a purposeful decision to live in a C2, where you have less income from sleepers, and easier access to empire.

You guys have decided on less risk to your POSes, there should be a tradeoff to that decision. I don't support giving you *less* functionality than the current system, but I do think it is reasonable to give you fewer defenses, and possibly not some of the features that people that choose to expose themselves to higher risk would get.

Whoa, I was planning on leaving this convo for a while until I read this. This is just plain bad and feels like some weird elitism. How is C2 or C3 less? Yes, its scaled for smaller corps and alliances. The sleeper sites can be done in ships that require smaller SP investment and the connections prevent capital ship movement. Besides those two points this part of w-space is just as cruel and unforgiving as the rest of w-space. There is no local, no security status hits, you can still anchor bubbles and use all kinds of items that are not allowed in high sec. But high sec, where a freighter can move a Large POS will not have this limitation?

What the rest of k-space? Is null sec going to have better POSes than low sec? And how is having capitals in C5 an excuse for larger POSes and better defenses? Why can't the defender use the capitals to defend? After all you just said it yourself, that POSes need to be defended by ships and not turrets. So how does that make lower class w-space an exception? Also, I think Empire access is a liability as the attacker can use it to bring in more people into the system then cycle, as opposed to higher class w-space where an empire connection is rare.