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Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2010.10.18 14:40:00 - [1] From the latest Devblog: Quote: Tech II ammo is getting some love in the coming expansion. We are focusing on the short range versions of the Tech II ammo such as Gleam, Conflagration, Hail, Quake, Void and Javelin. We are removing various negative effects from each, focusing on the drawbacks which penalize your ship itself and also stack per hardpoint loaded with the ammo. This means the ammo will be a good alternative to the faction ammo and, without such focused and sometimes crippling drawbacks, will be much more useful. Faction ammo is the major trading good that is used to convert high volumes of loyalty points (LP) into ISK. If T2 ammo becomes a substitute for that, there will be less demand for faction ammo. The price of faction ammo will go down (to a level close to the t2 ammo price). The LP will therefor be worth less, means the missionrunners will get a hit in their income again. Especially the level 5 missionrunners, who get LP as their major reward. Did CCP do this on purpose ? Do they hate missionrunners ? Or will they compensate that by adding new stuff to the LP stores ?
Herrring Amarr BLAHss	Posted - 2010.10.18 14:44:00 - [2] lol, Its sometimes astonishing how people manage to find things to whine at.
Tidanis Did I just do that Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.10.18 14:45:00 - [3] This just in: CCP hates you. -------------------------------------------- Currently Training: Avoiding Homework, Level 4
Abaroth Charmar	Posted - 2010.10.18 14:45:00 - [4] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Herp Converting LP to T2 Ammo gives an horrific isk/LP. Hell, you're better off buying certain 3% hardwirings for 10kLP + 10mill and flooding Jita buy orders with them.
Joe SMASH You Got A Purty Mouth	Posted - 2010.10.18 14:45:00 - [5] Mission runners are a bane to Eve. It is good that CCP is no longer catering to them. Level 4 missions should be in lowsec, level 5s in NPC 0.0. This change is good, dump your LP now. Can I have your stuff? ----------------------------------- Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
Apostrophe Ampersand Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.10.18 14:48:00 - [6] Another. Crying. Carebear. Seriously, you mission runners just love to whine about every damn thing. Wah wah wah, that guy took my salvage. Wah wah wah, I can't **** real players with my overpriced ammo.
Paknac Queltel Swords Horses and Heavy Metal	Posted - 2010.10.18 14:54:00 - [7] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba From the latest Devblog: Quote: Tech II ammo is getting some love in the coming expansion. We are focusing on the short range versions of the Tech II ammo such as Gleam, Conflagration, Hail, Quake, Void and Javelin. We are removing various negative effects from each, focusing on the drawbacks which penalize your ship itself and also stack per hardpoint loaded with the ammo. This means the ammo will be a good alternative to the faction ammo and, without such focused and sometimes crippling drawbacks, will be much more useful. Faction ammo is the major trading good that is used to convert high volumes of loyalty points (LP) into ISK. If T2 ammo becomes a substitute for that, there will be less demand for faction ammo. The price of faction ammo will go down (to a level close to the t2 ammo price). The LP will therefor be worth less, means the missionrunners will get a hit in their income again. Especially the level 5 missionrunners, who get LP as their major reward. Did CCP do this on purpose ? Do they hate missionrunners ? Or will they compensate that by adding new stuff to the LP stores ? Who knows what will happen? t2 ammo might become more expensive (unlikely), faction ammo might become cheaper (pleasepleaseplease). To use t2 ammo though, you have to train up to the t2 weapons. Until you're there, faction is the only way to push that last bit of performance out. Also, there's no need to suspect a mission nerf in everything. The devs are not out to get you. - Paknac Queltel
Celestine Santora	Posted - 2010.10.18 14:55:00 - [8] I wish L4s would ACTUALLY be nerfed instead of this fake "nerf".
Herrring Amarr BLAHss	Posted - 2010.10.18 14:59:00 - [9] sleeper ai for l4 missions plz
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Abaroth Charmar Converting LP to T2 Ammo gives an horrific isk/LP. Hell, you're better off buying certain 3% hardwirings for 10kLP + 10mill and flooding Jita buy orders with them. Learn how the market works. There are enough 3% hardwires offers already, it takes long to sell them (the demand isn't as high as for faction ammo), so many people cash in their LPs with ammo instead. Go to Jita, check the trading volumes of ammo and compare it to implants. Ofc. more people will try to cash in with implants, if ammo prices become too low. Guess what will happen to implant prices, if those who sell high volumes of LPs drop tons of additional implants on the sell orders ? @guy above: Eve is a complex game with a complex market system and economy. You change one thing, and this change can have an impact on completely other aspects of the game. And no, I'm not affected by this myself as I don't do empire missions.
Sendraks The Spice Weasels Must Flow	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:01:00 - [11] Originally by: Apostrophe Ampersand Another. Crying. Carebear. As opposed to crying Gankbears. Crying Pvpers Crying Industrials Crying Scammers And so on and so on. Everyone whines, as evidenced by the posts in this thread. I think this change is great. I can't wait to throw my ISK at the T2 manufacturers. In fact, I'll stock up now pending the change and before the prices get really silly.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Joe SMASH Mission runners are a bane to Eve. It is good that CCP is no longer catering to them. Level 4 missions should be in lowsec, level 5s in NPC 0.0. This change is good, dump your LP now. Can I have your stuff? You're in for a rude awakening if you're stupid enough to believe your own spew Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Narisa Bithon Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:09:00 - [13] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Faction ammo is the major trading good that is used to convert high volumes of loyalty points (LP) into ISK. If T2 ammo becomes a substitute for that, there will be less demand for faction ammo. The price of faction ammo will go down (to a level close to the t2 ammo price). The LP will therefor be worth less, means the missionrunners will get a hit in their income again. Especially the level 5 missionrunners, who get LP as their major reward. Did CCP do this on purpose ? Do they hate missionrunners ? Or will they compensate that by adding new stuff to the LP stores ? fail observation ---- faction ammo will still sell like mad cos anyone who cant use t2 guns will still buy it for pew pew
Matt Douglass	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Herrring lol, Its sometimes astonishing how people manage to find things to whine at. This. Really dude ? Finally CCP is nerfing something in the positive direction instead of nerfing it to death and you keep on whining about market matters now ? Buy f**** other st with your shtty loyalty points or gtfo Oh and this just in: CCP hates you
Ultim8Evil Ministry Of Eternal Disorder	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:20:00 - [15] Originally by: Narisa Bithon fail observation ---- faction ammo will still sell like mad cos anyone who cant use t2 guns will still buy it for pew pew There are people who can't use T2 guns? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Urgg Boolean	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:22:00 - [16] Yes, you will make less profit selling Faction ammo. Guess what, focus your missioning to accumulate LP in areas that are unaffected. Some Faction items really worth owning that come to mind are: - Sister Mods, which require like 1500 LP (~3-5 L4 missions) and sell for about 30-40M each. No Sister's standings? - Caldari Navy Ballistics Control Units are way over priced IMHO at 80M per contract - acquire a bunch of those and compete with the current price gougers. No Caldari standings? - Implants from ANY faction sell very well, as do skills books. I for one am very glad they plan this change. It means I can choose to spend LP+ISK+T1 ammo for faction ammo, or ISK for T2 ammo, depending upon current state of finances and resources. Plus, I have long believed that T2 should be on a par or better than Faction due to the typically enormous skills required to use them - if you pay it forward, i.e., acquire the skills, you should realize a true advantage (IMO). Lastly, it simply means you need to focus accumulation of LP more in alignment with profitable items. I learned this the hard way by accumulating 600K of Republic Fleet LP, then realizing that I have neither the skills nor the inclination to operate a Fleet issue Megathron, then having to comb through the LP store offerings to see how I could best utilize such a large pool of LP... You'll figure it out too.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Ultim8Evil Originally by: Narisa Bithon fail observation ---- faction ammo will still sell like mad cos anyone who cant use t2 guns will still buy it for pew pew There are people who can't use T2 guns? Yeah. when you max out your skills on projectiles you can only gain DPS by giving up range as compared to t1 guns.
Paknac Queltel Swords Horses and Heavy Metal	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Ultim8Evil Originally by: Narisa Bithon fail observation ---- faction ammo will still sell like mad cos anyone who cant use t2 guns will still buy it for pew pew There are people who can't use T2 guns? Obviously, I'm not going to max out my large lazor gun skills if all I use them for if the occasional POS bash. - Paknac Queltel
Joe SMASH You Got A Purty Mouth	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:37:00 - [19] Edited by: Joe SMASH on 18/10/2010 15:38:28 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Joe SMASH Mission runners are a bane to Eve. It is good that CCP is no longer catering to them. Level 4 missions should be in lowsec, level 5s in NPC 0.0. This change is good, dump your LP now. Can I have your stuff? You're in for a rude awakening if you're stupid enough to believe your own spew Give me one possible downside of moving higher level missions to more dangerous space. For every one downside, I will give you two or more upsides. Missionbears canceling subs does not count as a downside since the number of cancellations cannot possibly be speculated on where as market reactions can be. Not to mention the vast majority of people threatening to quit over a change never actually cancel the account. So I will go ahead and hold my breath for your logical and well-thought-out response. ----------------------------------- Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:39:00 - [20] Originally by: Joe SMASH Edited by: Joe SMASH on 18/10/2010 15:38:28 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Joe SMASH Mission runners are a bane to Eve. It is good that CCP is no longer catering to them. Level 4 missions should be in lowsec, level 5s in NPC 0.0. This change is good, dump your LP now. Can I have your stuff? You're in for a rude awakening if you're stupid enough to believe your own spew Give me one possible downside of moving higher level missions to more dangerous space. For every one downside, I will give you two or more upsides. Missionbears canceling subs does not count as a downside since the number of cancellations cannot possibly be speculated on where as market reactions can be. Not to mention the vast majority of people threatening to quit over a change never actually cancel the account. So I will go ahead and hold my breath for your logical and well-thought-out response. The higher level missions already are in more dangerous space.
Joe SMASH You Got A Purty Mouth	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:44:00 - [21] Originally by: Cipher Jones Originally by: Joe SMASH Edited by: Joe SMASH on 18/10/2010 15:38:28 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Joe SMASH Mission runners are a bane to Eve. It is good that CCP is no longer catering to them. Level 4 missions should be in lowsec, level 5s in NPC 0.0. This change is good, dump your LP now. Can I have your stuff? You're in for a rude awakening if you're stupid enough to believe your own spew Give me one possible downside of moving higher level missions to more dangerous space. For every one downside, I will give you two or more upsides. Missionbears canceling subs does not count as a downside since the number of cancellations cannot possibly be speculated on where as market reactions can be. Not to mention the vast majority of people threatening to quit over a change never actually cancel the account. So I will go ahead and hold my breath for your logical and well-thought-out response. The higher level missions already are in more dangerous space. Since we have slow people reading this thread, "higher level" = level 4 and up. Last time I checked, Motsu & Dodixie are 0.9 space and therefore perfectly safe for all intents and purposes. level 5 missions are in lowsec, which is a complete joke the deeper you get. ----------------------------------- Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
Sendraks The Spice Weasels Must Flow	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:45:00 - [22] I still don't see how this is a nerf to mission runners, unless I missed the note from CCP that says the ammo will be good for every conceivable mission scenario. Removing the negative effects of the ammo won't make it replace faction ammo that I can see.
Sendraks The Spice Weasels Must Flow	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:50:00 - [23] Originally by: Joe SMASH Last time I checked, Motsu & Dodixie are 0.9 space and therefore perfectly safe for all intents and purposes. This isn't promoted on the mission running and C&P forums nearly enough. Mission runners in Dodixie & Motsu are perfectly safe. They should take advantage of this, buy the most expensive ships they can with the most expensive faction fittings and brag, loudly, in local about it. They have nothing to fear from doing so because, after all, they are perfectly safe.
Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.10.18 15:54:00 - [24] LOTS of noobs will still use faction ammo...because they're noobs and don't have the skills for t2. lp will not go down due to this boost. When you kill someone on duty... ...they have to be your slave in the afterlife.
Barakkus	Posted - 2010.10.18 16:04:00 - [25] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba From the latest Devblog: Quote: Tech II ammo is getting some love in the coming expansion. We are focusing on the short range versions of the Tech II ammo such as Gleam, Conflagration, Hail, Quake, Void and Javelin. We are removing various negative effects from each, focusing on the drawbacks which penalize your ship itself and also stack per hardpoint loaded with the ammo. This means the ammo will be a good alternative to the faction ammo and, without such focused and sometimes crippling drawbacks, will be much more useful. Faction ammo is the major trading good that is used to convert high volumes of loyalty points (LP) into ISK. If T2 ammo becomes a substitute for that, there will be less demand for faction ammo. The price of faction ammo will go down (to a level close to the t2 ammo price). The LP will therefor be worth less, means the missionrunners will get a hit in their income again. Especially the level 5 missionrunners, who get LP as their major reward. Did CCP do this on purpose ? Do they hate missionrunners ? Or will they compensate that by adding new stuff to the LP stores ? Considering t2 ammo is very limited in it's damage types, I don't see a problem here. I have no use for t2 projectile ammo usually. Originally by: captain foivos Who would recruit someone named Barakkus? Wait a minute...
Zaknussem Intrum Industria	Posted - 2010.10.18 16:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Joe SMASH Give me one possible downside of moving higher level missions to more dangerous space. For every one downside, I will give you two or more upsides. Missionbears canceling subs does not count as a downside since the number of cancellations cannot possibly be speculated on where as market reactions can be. Not to mention the vast majority of people threatening to quit over a change never actually cancel the account. So I will go ahead and hold my breath for your logical and well-thought-out response. Since we have slow people reading this thread, "higher level" = level 4 and up. The tl:dr version: Prices in EvE will go up while subscription numbers will drop. Why? Because higher level missions are a very strong ISK faucet that's been milked good and hard for many years now. That means more ISK is flowing in EvE. Moving higher level missions into low-sec (without any changes to low-sec) will not kill the ISK faucet, but it will decimate the number of people that "drink" from the faucet. That means less ISK will flow. Note that I do not make any guesstimates on how large the effect will be, and it won't be felt right off the bat, but it's safe to say that it will be felt pretty well throughout the entire game, beginning with the prices going up of modules that normally only drop from L4s (Every BS-sized module up to Meta 4, for example). Salvage materials will be next, then generally all modules that drop from missions. But the big effect will be the drop in income. THAT will be the kicker. Even if all the L4 runners that won't run L4s anymore would turn to L3s instead (which is very likely) it won't hold a candle to the ISKies and item drops from L4s. Less ISK flowing in the game = less propability that people will use their ISK. Less ISK flowing in the game = Less reason for economically-minded people to want to play EvE. (Let's not forget all the people that actually will quit EvE as a direct result of this change) Less players playing EvE = Downside. Again, note that I make no guesstimates on how many players will quit EvE.
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2010.10.18 16:08:00 - [27] Note that the statement is that they're focussing on the penalties which stack per hardpoint. Yes, that means things like the Cap and speed penalties not the tracking penalties. Rage Torps will still, from that statement, suck at hitting anything that isn't sieged (or a discoball of painters). Gleam will still fail to track Freighters... Faction Ammo will still be in significantly higher demand than T2 and most likely we will find the status quo and your LP/Isk ratios unchanged (unless you do a little research and find one of the many items which yield considerably higher returns than Ammo). -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.10.18 16:09:00 - [28] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba From the latest Devblog: Faction ammo is the major trading good that is used to convert high volumes of loyalty points (LP) into ISK. If T2 ammo becomes a substitute for that, there will be less demand for faction ammo. The price of faction ammo will go down (to a level close to the t2 ammo price). The LP will therefor be worth less, means the missionrunners will get a hit in their income again. Especially the level 5 missionrunners, who get LP as their major reward. Did CCP do this on purpose ? Do they hate missionrunners ? Or will they compensate that by adding new stuff to the LP stores ? crai more helpless noob Wherever you went - Here you are.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.18 16:14:00 - [29] I will still be using faction crystals as they dont burn out as fast.
V'hellu	Posted - 2010.10.18 16:20:00 - [30] meh... CCP is much better than other companies who make MMO's. In fact, I'd say there are only 1 or 2 other companies, along with CCP, who actually do make decent MMO's and don't leave a slew of completely, utterly, horrifically game breaking flaws and exploits to screw the game. I've played MMO's where the producers let the game go completely to **** and utterly cave in on itself, and simply say "yeah, we've noticed the problem" while sitting there and enjoying their subscriptions while it lasts. CCP hasn't let Eve do this so far by any means. The thing that bewilders me the most, though, is that you folks stick around in Eve and keep playing even though you hate it so much. I've left eve, come back, left again, come back again, and repeated this cycle, because I simply don't play video games that I don't enjoy at the time. If you guys are such masochists, there are women in leather you call for a better time than playing a game you hate so much.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.18 16:24:00 - [31] Originally by: Ultim8Evil Originally by: Narisa Bithon fail observation ---- faction ammo will still sell like mad cos anyone who cant use t2 guns will still buy it for pew pew There are people who can't use T2 guns? Above all there are people who won't use T2 guns for various reasons (fittings, bling, better situational stats etc). Anyway, more variety in LP store usage = good. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2010.10.18 17:05:00 - [32] Originally by: Narisa Bithon fail observation ---- faction ammo will still sell like mad cos anyone who cant use t2 guns will still buy it for pew pew Most of the people who do pvp use T2 guns. If you can't use t2 guns you're basically a victim that will soon boost someone's killstats and don't belong on the battlefield. Before you question that fact, have a look at the killboard of the currently biggest alliance for some stats, what weapons are used most: killboard - t1 guns didn't even make it on the list (must be at least less than 2.7k kills with the best t1, whereas t2 are used in more than 10k kills for many weapon types), so guess who fails at observing here. Originally by: V'hellu If you guys are such masochists, there are women in leather you call for a better time than playing a game you hate so much. Yes but they cost more than 15 dollar per month.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce	Posted - 2010.10.18 17:47:00 - [33] Edited by: Grimpak on 18/10/2010 17:48:20 Originally by: Urgg Boolean - Sister Mods, which require like 15000 LP (~3-5 L4 missions) and sell for about 30-40M each. No Sister's standings? and that's not the one that yelds more isk per LP --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Hacra Minmatar Cosmodynamics Joint Venture Conglomerate	Posted - 2010.10.18 18:37:00 - [34] I actually agree with the op, though, it still remains to be seen what penalties the T2 ammo gives, i am really hoping faction ammo stays at the high prices they are. And i hope CCP sees that some of us do work hard to earn the big buck to be able to afford something shiney. Level 5s are the last place with in empire boundaries to earn good isk (yes i do exploring too, so i know what i speak of). If this t2 ammo change will come to be as bad as some of us think, poor will get poorer and big alliances will get even richer, how do you think small corporations will ever be able to spring forth to 0.0 if their earnings are diminished again.
Apostrophe Ampersand Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.10.18 18:40:00 - [35] Originally by: Hacra And i hope CCP sees that some of us do work hard to earn the big buck to be able to afford something shiney. Originally by: Hacra some of us do work hard Originally by: Hacra work hard mission runners? work hard? lol
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.18 18:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Apostrophe Ampersand mission runners? work hard? lol Well sure, missions can be hard if you do them wrong or don't quite have the right equipment yet. àbut then again, if you have those problems, you're most likely not accumulating LP at such a rate that you have to pump them into high-volume/low-return items such as ammo. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Hacra Minmatar Cosmodynamics Joint Venture Conglomerate	Posted - 2010.10.18 18:48:00 - [37] I dont know if you guys ever heard that level 5s are in lowsec which certainly does not come risk free, before you judge someone in your apparent indepth knowledge of the game and your obviously superior playstyle, perhaps you should go and try to solo those level 5 missions your self. And yes i can accumulate the lp quite fast should i so desire, but this does not mean it is easy.
Khanaris Asgarth Eternium Industries	Posted - 2010.10.18 18:49:00 - [38] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba From the latest Devblog: Quote: Tech II ammo is getting some love in the coming expansion. We are focusing on the short range versions of the Tech II ammo such as Gleam, Conflagration, Hail, Quake, Void and Javelin. We are removing various negative effects from each, focusing on the drawbacks which penalize your ship itself and also stack per hardpoint loaded with the ammo. This means the ammo will be a good alternative to the faction ammo and, without such focused and sometimes crippling drawbacks, will be much more useful. Faction ammo is the major trading good that is used to convert high volumes of loyalty points (LP) into ISK. If T2 ammo becomes a substitute for that, there will be less demand for faction ammo. The price of faction ammo will go down (to a level close to the t2 ammo price). The LP will therefor be worth less, means the missionrunners will get a hit in their income again. Especially the level 5 missionrunners, who get LP as their major reward. Did CCP do this on purpose ? Do they hate missionrunners ? Or will they compensate that by adding new stuff to the LP stores ? Mission runners do not need a bone thrown to them. They make too much isk as it is risk free.
Stick Cult	Posted - 2010.10.18 18:51:00 - [39] ITT: BAAAAAAW TECH 2 AMMO ISN'T GOING TO BE WORTHLESS/USELESS ANYMORE!!!! and BAAAAAW I'M GONNA MAKE 5% LESS ISK FROM MY MISSIONS!!!! Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
Abaroth Charmar	Posted - 2010.10.18 18:52:00 - [40] Originally by: Khanaris Asgarth They make too much isk as it is risk free. Not true. There is no such thing as risk free, short of never undocking. Moar ships are lost in 24hr in Motsu, Dodixie, Peni etc than in much of low-sec.
Stick Cult	Posted - 2010.10.18 18:59:00 - [41] Originally by: Abaroth Charmar Originally by: Khanaris Asgarth They make too much isk as it is risk free. Not true. There is no such thing as risk free, short of never undocking. Moar ships are lost in 24hr in Motsu, Dodixie, Peni etc than in much of low-sec. Because mission hubs are full of idiots and lowsec is empty.. Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
Hacra Minmatar Cosmodynamics Joint Venture Conglomerate	Posted - 2010.10.18 19:08:00 - [42] Originally by: Stick Cult Originally by: Abaroth Charmar Originally by: Khanaris Asgarth They make too much isk as it is risk free. Not true. There is no such thing as risk free, short of never undocking. Moar ships are lost in 24hr in Motsu, Dodixie, Peni etc than in much of low-sec. Because mission hubs are full of idiots and lowsec is empty.. Remember that before you joined the kool-kids-clubÖ and went to fight in 0.0 and lost countless ships lead by some idiot fc trying to capture some silly station/system which probably didnt benefit you all that much in the end, mostlikely you also were doing missions or mining, "Risk free". And yes, even us "idiots" do, do pvp. (though sadly it is minority)
Apostrophe Ampersand Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.10.18 19:09:00 - [43] Originally by: Hacra Originally by: Stick Cult Originally by: Abaroth Charmar Originally by: Khanaris Asgarth They make too much isk as it is risk free. Not true. There is no such thing as risk free, short of never undocking. Moar ships are lost in 24hr in Motsu, Dodixie, Peni etc than in much of low-sec. Because mission hubs are full of idiots and lowsec is empty.. Remember that before you joined the kool-kids-clubÖ and went to fight in 0.0 and lost countless ships lead by some idiot fc trying to capture some silly station/system which probably didnt benefit you all that much in the end, mostlikely you also were doing missions or mining, "Risk free". And yes, even us "idiots" do, do pvp. (though sadly it is minority) Actually, I went to 0.0 in my rifter.
Stick Cult	Posted - 2010.10.18 19:13:00 - [44] Edited by: Stick Cult on 18/10/2010 19:15:15 Originally by: Hacra Originally by: Stick Cult Because mission hubs are full of idiots and lowsec is empty.. Remember that before you joined the kool-kids-clubÖ and went to fight in 0.0 and lost countless ships lead by some idiot fc trying to capture some silly station/system which probably didnt benefit you all that much in the end, mostlikely you also were doing missions or mining, "Risk free". And yes, even us "idiots" do, do pvp. (though sadly it is minority) d00d the kool-kids-klub (spell it right) is in Jita. Not much into the nullsec warfare thing... meh blobs. Yep, I spent a lot of time doing missions, and it is basically risk free. If you don't fall for the bait of the ninja salvagers, you fit isn't terrible and you don't walk away for 10 minutes, it is basically risk free isk. And there's lots of isk. I then spent my iskies on ships that would instantly get primaried in lowsec fights woot!!! edit: oh dear, I just claimed to be in the *... Originally by:** CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
Zeet A'Dron New Artisian and Mercenary Association	Posted - 2010.10.18 19:17:00 - [45] Originally by: Apostrophe Ampersand Another. Crying. Carebear. Seriously, you mission runners just love to whine about every damn thing. Wah wah wah, that guy took my salvage. Wah wah wah, I can't **** real players with my overpriced ammo. You should not post.
Hacra Minmatar Cosmodynamics Joint Venture Conglomerate	Posted - 2010.10.18 19:19:00 - [46] Originally by: Zeet A'Dron Originally by: Apostrophe Ampersand Another. Crying. Carebear. Seriously, you mission runners just love to whine about every damn thing. Wah wah wah, that guy took my salvage. Wah wah wah, I can't ** real players with my overpriced ammo. You should not post. But ofcourse he should, he is after all a real** player.
Apostrophe Ampersand Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.10.18 19:20:00 - [47] Originally by: Zeet A'Dron Originally by: Apostrophe Ampersand Another. Crying. Carebear. Seriously, you mission runners just love to whine about every damn thing. Wah wah wah, that guy took my salvage. Wah wah wah, I can't **** real players with my overpriced ammo. You should not post. oh god how did this get here i am not good with computer
Captain Megadeath	Posted - 2010.10.18 19:31:00 - [48] I've got to laught at the big bad PvPers in this thread. Half of you HAVE L4 Mission runner alts as income the other half prey on mission runners as a main source of income. But hey act all tough until CCP does Nerf L4s into oblivion (and lowsec). You lot will be the first to whine (via alts of course) lmao Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails my name actually is short for catherine Yeah, Katie Door perhaps...... lol
Zeke Mobius	Posted - 2010.10.18 19:35:00 - [49] i like how ccp only feels the need to fix the game every 6 months and by fix the game, i mean **** it up even more. How are they going to do it? probably just remove the text from the descriptions but forget to actually screw with the code. You will get an optional patch within 18 days that will delete your boot.ini Do any of you actually think ccp is able to competently release anything? doesnt matter what your opinion is really as they have already proven there are incompetent and taking the game in a direction that only cares about money and not the people who put them where they are.
Grog Barrel	Posted - 2010.10.18 19:36:00 - [50] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba From the latest Devblog: Quote: Tech II ammo is getting some love in the coming expansion. [/b] I hate it when devs use the general forum consumer's terminology. Yeah, i know, haters gonna hate.
Ogogov Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.10.18 19:40:00 - [51] I'm just glad they're fixing something that's been obviously broken since day one - to hell with the market implications!
Emile Gris	Posted - 2010.10.18 20:13:00 - [52] Originally by: Apostrophe Ampersand oh god how did this get here i am not good with computer I have no clue what you are trying to say here. Can you say it better?
Lecherito	Posted - 2010.10.18 20:31:00 - [53] Try to remember, mission runners are the blue collar grunts of the EvE universe. You're a half prong up from ninja salvagers and about on par with miners. You are a tool to be used for the advancement of your betters, nothing more. The patch may change the status quo, the MD will decide how to react, and your agenda will shift accordingly. Quand meme, thanks for the whine. -L
Stick Cult	Posted - 2010.10.18 20:36:00 - [54] Originally by: Lecherito Try to remember, mission runners are the blue collar grunts of the EvE universe. You're a half prong up from ninja salvagers and about on par with miners. You are a tool to be used for the advancement of your betters, nothing more. The patch may change the status quo, the MD will decide how to react, and your agenda will shift accordingly. Quand meme, thanks for the whine. -L Lecherito, one of the best MD trolls. Gonna rate this at a 4/10, and I'll update after you get some responses. Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2010.10.18 20:44:00 - [55] Originally by: Ogogov I'm just glad they're fixing something that's been obviously broken since day one - to hell with the market implications! This. If some of you can't adapt to change.. do not play a single MMO, ever. Step back from the computer, and think about getting your head screwed on straight if changes in a Game that are beneficial to a majority are some sort of sign of doom n gloom. I don't even know why this is being brought up. Adapt or Fail.. only got yourself to blame. People need to quit dumping blame on someone else and CCP.. everyone is being subjected to changes that take place, not some select few. Can't make most of the market with what you gots.. your fault. Ship blew you up in PvP.. your fault. Your ass got ganked.. your fault. Best thing to do would be to acknowledge it so you can learn what you need to change to produce a different outcome. And... Grow up or go back to WoW! ---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it-
Rashmika Clavain Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.18 20:54:00 - [56] It's not a nerf, it's a ****ing boost. Well unless it's a negative nerf, in the same way that a negative number multiplied by a negative number results in a positive number. Which makes it a boost. Either way, you're a douchT bag!
Damis Shahar	Posted - 2010.10.18 21:46:00 - [57] You're way off, there's still about 10 million other things in the LP store which could be used to convert in to ISK, like attribute implants, hardwirings, faction weapons/modules, faction ships, skill books... Or you could just convert the LP in to faction ammo for your own use, which is passively converting it in to ISK because you can do missions quicker with it than with normal ammo. I would also like to point out to all the people saying they should nerf missions, the reason you're saying that is to force people in to PvP. Not everybody wants to join an alliance full of jerks with heads so big they need specially made doors on their ships to fit it through, and fight in wars that aren't really wars but one big cluster**** of camping, boredom, and (in the case of a medium-large sized fight) overwhelming lag. If CCP did what you say and make level 4's in lowsec only, it wouldn't change a damn thing. People would just do level 3's or quit, and since carebears make up the vast majority of this game, CCP won't do that.
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.10.18 22:43:00 - [58] Nerf L4's? Watch the EVE economy TRUELY crash. From the last quarterly report. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q2-2010.pdf Bounty payouts were 20 trillion ISK for the Apr-Jun quarter. Doing some math from the ship destruct numebrs and monthly ISK growth pre-insurance nerf we find that almost that much had been flowing into the game through intentional self-destruction of ships for insurance payouts. So, if you nerf L4s AND keep dropping insurance below ship mineral prices to prevent intentional insurance fraud direct mineral to ISK generation, then the EVE economy would crash and HARD! 20 trillion a quarter flowing out for system rental, taxes, station hanger rental, NPC sell orders like skill books, etc. and far, far less than that flowing in becuase they've killed both major sources of ISK generation (insurance fraud and L4 missions)? Not good. Not good at all.
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2010.10.18 22:55:00 - [59] Now that insurance has been nerfed to prevent direct mineral to SIK conversaion, almost all ISK comes into the game from bounties and mission payouts. That money is then used to purchase stuff, like ships and modules, putting the money in the hands of the manufacturers. Those players use it to buy stuff like moon goo and ABC minerals from null sec residents. Selling moon goo? Probably selling to someone that runs L4s. Selling high-end minerals? Probably selling to someone who got the money from someone that runs L4s. Run 0.0 plexes for the faction drops? Probably selling to someone whos money came from L4 missions. Even those that convert thier LP into faction ammo, are probably selling it to people that got their ISK running L4s or selling stuff to people that run L4s.
Taedrin Gallente The Green Cross Sev3rance	Posted - 2010.10.18 23:55:00 - [60] Edited by: Taedrin on 18/10/2010 23:57:12 What most people don't realize is that this would nerf low sec mission running far greater than high sec mission running. Low sec missions rely on LP->ISK conversion far more than high sec missions do, so any nerf to LP profitability will also nerf low sec missions. Trust me, we don't need even LESS incentives to venture out into low sec. We need MORE. ---------- Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2010.10.19 00:04:00 - [61] Surely this is the end of mission running as we know it.
Narisa Bithon Caldari	Posted - 2010.10.19 00:39:00 - [62] Originally by: Ultim8Evil Originally by: Narisa Bithon fail observation ---- faction ammo will still sell like mad cos anyone who cant use t2 guns will still buy it for pew pew There are people who can't use T2 guns? yup they are called new players (noobs) and indy alts (miners that live in 0.0 and like to pew pew on occasion)
Jhoria Englside	Posted - 2010.10.19 00:39:00 - [63] Originally by: Ultim8Evil Originally by: Narisa Bithon fail observation ---- faction ammo will still sell like mad cos anyone who cant use t2 guns will still buy it for pew pew There are people who can't use T2 guns? i dont think so Edit: or not
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2010.10.19 08:39:00 - [64] Originally by: Jacob Holland Note that the statement is that they're focussing on the penalties which stack per hardpoint. Yes, that means things like the Cap and speed penalties not the tracking penalties. Rage Torps will still, from that statement, suck at hitting anything that isn't sieged (or a discoball of painters). Gleam will still fail to track Freighters... Faction Ammo will still be in significantly higher demand than T2 and most likely we will find the status quo and your LP/Isk ratios unchanged (unless you do a little research and find one of the many items which yield considerably higher returns than Ammo). TL;DR Version: T2 shortrange ammo will still have sucky tracking, sucky explosion radius...etc. Faction Ammo will still be better. No change to current prices expected. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Khanaris Asgarth Eternium Industries	Posted - 2010.10.19 08:48:00 - [65] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Now that insurance has been nerfed to prevent direct mineral to SIK conversaion, almost all ISK comes into the game from bounties and mission payouts. That money is then used to purchase stuff, like ships and modules, putting the money in the hands of the manufacturers. Those players use it to buy stuff like moon goo and ABC minerals from null sec residents. Selling moon goo? Probably selling to someone that runs L4s. Selling high-end minerals? Probably selling to someone who got the money from someone that runs L4s. Run 0.0 plexes for the faction drops? Probably selling to someone whos money came from L4 missions. Even those that convert thier LP into faction ammo, are probably selling it to people that got their ISK running L4s or selling stuff to people that run L4s. And this doesn't strike you as a problem? Whilst nerfing high level missions in itself wont fix it I feel its a step in the right direction. If running high sec missions remains as safe as it is the income should be diminished to reflect this.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.19 08:56:00 - [66] Originally by: LHA Tarawa Nerf L4's? Watch the EVE economy TRUELY crash. Now, you do understand that this doesn't affect the ISK faucet of L4s? If anything, it reduces the ISK sink of the LP store, leaving more ISK in the economyà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ran Khanon Amarr Swords Horses and Heavy Metal	Posted - 2010.10.19 09:11:00 - [67] Hmm, wonder what will change for laser pew pew. Gleam is tech II beam ammo while pulse is the laser of choice in maybe 95% of laser boat pew pew fits, I don't see that change much as increased fitting costs and decreased tracking on beams make them a worse choice for close range pew pew anyway ... The short range pulse ammo would be conflag but I am really curious how it will compare to Imperial Navy Multi's. ~~Recruiting!~~
Captain Blart Hideous Mutant Freekz	Posted - 2010.10.19 09:20:00 - [68] Originally by: Joe SMASH Mission runners are a bane to Eve. It is good that CCP is no longer catering to them. Level 4 missions should be in lowsec, level 5s in NPC 0.0. This change is good, dump your LP now. Can I have your stuff? Funny that all the 0.0 carebears ( and god knows there is shtload of them ) grinding null sec missions, ratting or plexing all day long and buying those GTC cards at 700 mill a pop ask for lvl 4 in low sec, and lvl 5 in null. The day CCP put lvl4 in low sec, I hope they remove local from 0.0 as it should be anyway. All of you 0.0 bears have it way too easy with those upgraded systems. PS i dont grind lvl4 in high sec btw. But I dont mind those who do it , they pay their subs as anyone else and if it wasn't for the carebears who mine and manufacture all the stuff you use to equip your ship, you would still be in your Ibis, mron !
Antihrist Pripravnik 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.10.19 10:30:00 - [69] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba From the latest Devblog: Quote: Tech II ammo is getting some love in the coming expansion. We are focusing on the short range versions of the Tech II ammo such as Gleam, Conflagration, Hail, Quake, Void and Javelin. We are removing various negative effects from each, focusing on the drawbacks which penalize your ship itself and also stack per hardpoint loaded with the ammo. This means the ammo will be a good alternative to the faction ammo and, without such focused and sometimes crippling drawbacks, will be much more useful. Faction ammo is the major trading good that is used to convert high volumes of loyalty points (LP) into ISK. If T2 ammo becomes a substitute for that, there will be less demand for faction ammo. The price of faction ammo will go down (to a level close to the t2 ammo price). The LP will therefor be worth less, means the missionrunners will get a hit in their income again. Especially the level 5 missionrunners, who get LP as their major reward. Did CCP do this on purpose ? Do they hate missionrunners ? Or will they compensate that by adding new stuff to the LP stores ? For a character that has a similar name as a legendary Caldari admiral that sacrificed his life (and his Chimera) to save the people, you cry too much. Adapt or be gone.
Darod Zyree Gallente Zyree Holding	Posted - 2010.10.19 10:39:00 - [70] People still do missions? Those people havenÆt heard about wormholes/sleepers yet? Also Sleeper AI for missions please, that'll give them somewhat to whine about :D -Darod-
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.19 11:30:00 - [71] Originally by: Captain Blart Originally by: Joe SMASH Mission runners are a bane to Eve. It is good that CCP is no longer catering to them. Level 4 missions should be in lowsec, level 5s in NPC 0.0. This change is good, dump your LP now. Can I have your stuff? Funny that all the 0.0 carebears ( and god knows there is shtload of them ) grinding null sec missions, ratting or plexing all day long and buying those GTC cards at 700 mill a pop ask for lvl 4 in low sec, and lvl 5 in null. The day CCP put lvl4 in low sec, I hope they remove local from 0.0 as it should be anyway. All of you 0.0 bears have it way too easy with those upgraded systems. Sounds good to me, CCP could do this tomorrow and I'd be happy. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always* to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.19 11:50:00 - [72] Originally by: Stick Cult Originally by: Abaroth Charmar Originally by: Khanaris Asgarth They make too much isk as it is risk free. Not true. There is no such thing as risk free, short of never undocking. Moar ships are lost in 24hr in Motsu, Dodixie, Peni etc than in much of low-sec. Because mission hubs are full of idiots and lowsec is empty.. You mean like those systems where I was passing through this morning with 22-6-6-17-6-6 people in local and a 10 man band camping a gate in the system with 17 people in local? Strange definition of "empty".
Gunner Cid The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2010.10.19 11:54:00 - [73] -Remove local from .4 and below -All lvl 3 quality 0 and higher missions go to low sec -Allow HIC bubbles in lowsec (activating bubble causes immediate sec status loss and gives GCC) -Remove all .4 space restrictions (fighters, moon mining, reactions, drugs, POS anchoring etc etc) Change how missions work; greatly increase bounties (like 3-6m bounties for BSes 1-3m bounties for BC) reduce number of **** for mission runner to shoot give all NPCs sleeper UI
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.19 12:05:00 - [74] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 19/10/2010 12:10:16 Originally by: LHA Tarawa Nerf L4's? Watch the EVE economy TRUELY crash. From the last quarterly report. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q2-2010.pdf Bounty payouts were 20 trillion ISK for the Apr-Jun quarter. Doing some math from the ship destruct numebrs and monthly ISK growth pre-insurance nerf we find that almost that much had been flowing into the game through intentional self-destruction of ships for insurance payouts. So, if you nerf L4s AND keep dropping insurance below ship mineral prices to prevent intentional insurance fraud direct mineral to ISK generation, then the EVE economy would crash and HARD! 20 trillion a quarter flowing out for system rental, taxes, station hanger rental, NPC sell orders like skill books, etc. and far, far less than that flowing in becuase they've killed both major sources of ISK generation (insurance fraud and L4 missions)? Not good. Not good at all. Judging from Cronothis post in the T2 boost thread and my personal recollection of the rapport between isk generated from the mission payout against the mission bounties, about 50% of the isk coming from bounties are generated by ratting and plexing, not by missions. Nerfing missions income will have effects (especially for new players and new alliances), but 0.0 alliances members will probably only need to reconvert the mission runner alt to a ratting/plexing alt to keep the same income. The effect would be a higher entry barrier to move in 0.0 for new alliances and corps and a buff for already entrenched alliances. Bad for the game as a whole? sure Good for most of the guys crying about L4 mission faucets? probable So they are all the motivations to push for that kind of change, it will boost the way they play. Originally by: Tippia Originally by: LHA Tarawa Nerf L4's? Watch the EVE economy TRUELY crash. Now, you do understand that this doesn't affect the ISK faucet of L4s? If anything, it reduces the ISK sink of the LP store, leaving more ISK in the economyà He was speaking of moving L4 to low sec, not the T2 ammunition change that (I think) will mostly increase the price of the usable T2 ammo, not reduce the price of faction ammunitions (beside some panic selling from the OP).
Zanes Shoubje	Posted - 2010.10.19 12:08:00 - [75] +1 to op
Diesel47	Posted - 2010.10.19 12:15:00 - [76] Originally by: Psychotic Maniac LOTS of noobs will still use faction ammo...because they're noobs and don't have the skills for t2. lp will not go down due to this boost. +1
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.10.19 12:38:00 - [77] It will hardly make a change and most certainly is not the mission nerf we all hoped for. Level 4s pay too much ISK for no risk, anyone that faction/officer fits a mission boat deserves the risk that comes with it.
Spurty Caldari D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2010.10.19 12:50:00 - [78] thanks for looking into this CCP. could never wrap my mind around Meta levels having strange s curve to them with ammo. doesn't affect faction ammo as much as you might think mission runners. faction ammo has big advantages over t1 I'll not drop faction ammo due to this change. would have to be a bit of a tard to dream up that possibility. well that or ccp adding negative bonus for faction ammo, which storyline wise could be understood as a grievance. This, not one jot boyo Yelp!
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.10.19 12:56:00 - [79] Perhaps you could stop running boring pve and find a better way to make your isk before crying over something as riduculous as this. ~ OR ~ They should remove tech I ammo so people rely on faction ammo from mission runners. This grievance of greedy but stupid level 4 runners will not stand. ~_~
Psychotic Maniac Caldari Head Shrinkers	Posted - 2010.10.19 14:17:00 - [80] Originally by: V'hellu If you guys are such masochists, there are women in leather you call for a better time than playing a game you hate so much. Are you one of those women? If so I would like to book an appointment. /I like women in leather... When you kill someone on duty... ...they have to be your slave in the afterlife.
LittleTerror	Posted - 2010.10.19 14:43:00 - [81] Originally by: baltec1 I will still be using faction crystals as they dont burn out as fast. This
Rashmika Clavain Gallente	Posted - 2010.10.19 14:58:00 - [82] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: LHA Tarawa Nerf L4's? Watch the EVE economy TRUELY crash. Now, you do understand that this doesn't affect the ISK faucet of L4s? If anything, it reduces the ISK sink of the LP store, leaving more ISK in the economyà Don't be too hard on LHA... he's a bit out of his depth unless leading a band of pitchfork/flaming torch wielding village idiots looking for some T2 BPO owners to persecute/whine about.
Doddy Aliastra	Posted - 2010.10.19 15:13:00 - [83] Originally by: Hacra I dont know if you guys ever heard that level 5s are in lowsec which certainly does not come risk free, before you judge someone in your apparent indepth knowledge of the game and your obviously superior playstyle, perhaps you should go and try to solo those level 5 missions your self. And yes i can accumulate the lp quite fast should i so desire, but this does not mean it is easy. Surely a level 5 mission runner with their mountains of LP and mountains of tags are not focussed on ammo for returns?
Orange Lagomorph	Posted - 2010.10.19 16:03:00 - [84] CCP realizes that career mission runners will continue plodding along like mules chasing after a carrot on a stick, even if they throw 'em a nerf every once in a while. Running missions is so incredibly boring that, if I had no financial alternative, I'd much prefer to purchase ISK. Barring that, I'd station trade just enough to buy a few T1 Rifters per day and stay in RvB or Eve University forever. Not only does CCP know you'll bend over and take it ù hardcore players look upon career mission runners with contempt and just plain don't give a damn. If you're whining about a faction ammo nerf, you are a career mission runner, even if your main is in 0.0 or lowsec (and if you're in 0.0, I shudder to think why you're running missions all the time). TL;DR: Quite literally no one cares. Nice tears, though.
Caldari citizen52145894561	Posted - 2010.10.21 05:05:00 - [85] I am a carebare and I will say this. I have never had any reason to use T2 weapons, let alone T2 ammo with T2 weapons. Especially since: I can buy Faction weapons and faction ammo I can use that training time for something more useful, like piloting carriers maybe?
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2010.10.21 05:33:00 - [86] Originally by: Lady Spank Perhaps you could stop running boring pve and find a better way to make your isk before crying over something as riduculous as this. ~ OR ~ They should remove tech I ammo so people rely on faction ammo from mission runners. This grievance of greedy but stupid level 4 runners will not stand. 1. PVE is the only source of ISK in the game. If everyone stopped doing PVE content there would be no isk to trade goods with for that matter there would be no goods to trade. I suppose we could all then PVP in our newb ships with no points because someone has to do PVE content to make those too. 2. It takes T1 ammo to get Faction ammo so fail again. All that said a buff to T2 ammo is not a mission nerf. Many if not most people will continue to use faction ammo over the T2 variants anyway for a number of reasons. (price, Performance ability to use in non T2 guns) particularly the large variants considering the huge time investment required to spec large turrets.
Lachesis VII Amarr The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2010.10.21 06:00:00 - [87] Originally by: Gunner Cid -Remove local from .4 and below -All lvl 3 quality 0 and higher missions go to low sec -Allow HIC bubbles in lowsec (activating bubble causes immediate sec status loss and gives GCC) -Remove all .4 space restrictions (fighters, moon mining, reactions, drugs, POS anchoring etc etc) Change how missions work; greatly increase bounties (like 3-6m bounties for BSes 1-3m bounties for BC) reduce number of **** for mission runner to shoot give all NPCs sleeper UI Well, that would certainly increase the value of Passari, woudln't it? Might give us a reason to finally move in there. Note that I'm joking here. At least about the moving to Passari bit. I love my corp, but we all know that Python grunts lack.... intelligence.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.21 07:46:00 - [88] Originally by: Orange Lagomorph (and if you're in 0.0, I shudder to think why you're running missions all the time). FYI: 0.0 missions are p lucrative, especially for the Angels and Guristas. Not for faction ammo tho Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Ervol Libra Amarr Pinky and the Brain corp	Posted - 2010.10.21 08:18:00 - [89] Originally by: Gunner Cid -Remove local from .4 and below -All lvl 3 quality 0 and higher missions go to low sec -Allow HIC bubbles in lowsec (activating bubble causes immediate sec status loss and gives GCC) -Remove all .4 space restrictions (fighters, moon mining, reactions, drugs, POS anchoring etc etc) Change how missions work; greatly increase bounties (like 3-6m bounties for BSes 1-3m bounties for BC) reduce number of **** for mission runner to shoot give all NPCs sleeper UI Remove local from empire space as well, bears are too safe when wardec'd because of local. .4 restrictions on pos' where/gonna be removed i think, read something about that
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.21 08:42:00 - [90] Originally by: Skex Relbore 1. PVE is the only source of ISK in the game. No. There is also insurance. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Orange Lagomorph	Posted - 2010.10.21 08:57:00 - [91] Of course PvE is by far the main source of raw ISK in this game (with insurance playing a very minor role, as Tippia points out). Where else should it come from? PvP? What, ships should crap out bonus ISK into the victors' wallets when they blow up ships?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.10.21 09:11:00 - [92] Originally by: Orange Lagomorph Where else should it come from? PvP? What, ships should crap out bonus ISK into the victors' wallets when they blow up ships? Well hey, revamp the bounty system and it just mightà And no, I don't have the slightest clue how that would work without being a haven of exploitation, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.21 09:51:00 - [93] Originally by: Skex Relbore Originally by: Lady Spank Perhaps you could stop running boring pve and find a better way to make your isk before crying over something as riduculous as this. ~ OR ~ They should remove tech I ammo so people rely on faction ammo from mission runners. This grievance of greedy but stupid level 4 runners will not stand. 1. PVE is the only source of ISK in the game. If everyone stopped doing PVE content there would be no isk to trade goods with ... Apart from the hundreds of trillions of ISK already in game of course. At the moment, hundreds of billions of ISK are being created every day. It's arguable whether it's necessary for it to continue being created at this rate, which is far in excess of the sinks. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Jack Gilligan Caldari 1st Cavalry Division Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.10.21 12:24:00 - [94] T2 ammo should be better than T1 faction or at least equal, especially considering the huge number of SP's and time that goes into training for the weapons that FIRE it...
Vadania Amastacia Caldari Blacklight Incorporated Broken Chains Alliance	Posted - 2010.10.21 13:34:00 - [95] No matter how 'good' they ever make T2 ammo, it still only does certain types of damage for projectile / hybrid / laser weaponry; and T2 missiles are situational. I foresee that the primary use of boosted T2 close-range ammo will be in PVP, with faction/t1 ammo continuing to be used for most mission purposes.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2010.10.21 13:50:00 - [96] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Skex Relbore Originally by: Lady Spank Perhaps you could stop running boring pve and find a better way to make your isk before crying over something as riduculous as this. ~ OR ~ They should remove tech I ammo so people rely on faction ammo from mission runners. This grievance of greedy but stupid level 4 runners will not stand. 1. PVE is the only source of ISK in the game. If everyone stopped doing PVE content there would be no isk to trade goods with ... Apart from the hundreds of trillions of ISK already in game of course. At the moment, hundreds of billions of ISK are being created every day. It's arguable whether it's necessary for it to continue being created at this rate, which is far in excess of the sinks. The material faucets outstrip the hell out of the isk faucets. That's why prices are constantly dropping and why stuff is so cheap. People trying to claim that there is an excessive influx of isk utterly fail at understanding how money works. If new money isn't created to match the resource growth then you get deflation and you see prices drop as a market is saturated with goods. In the real world this job is handled by the central banks. In EVE mission rewards, bounties and (yes Tippia) to a lesser extend insurance do this job. Anything that reduces the influx from those activities are going to further increase the deflation in the economy (witness the effects of the ill advised insurance nerf).
Syn Callibri Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse	Posted - 2010.10.21 15:43:00 - [97] Edited by: Syn Callibri on 21/10/2010 15:45:28 Wow, I love all of the Pew-Pew whines in this thread about Care-Bear/Mission Runner whines and vice versa...a never ending fountain of tears... ...the irony is so damn funny. Syn Callibri Commander - Fleet Ops [21EL] Keeper of the Blood Pact
Tirlin	Posted - 2010.10.21 16:21:00 - [98] Join a null sec corp and make 20+ mill an hour ratting.
Doppleganger Minmatar Imperium Technologies Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.10.21 17:52:00 - [99] This isnt a mission nerf. They are not nerfing faction ammo just making T2 short range ammo better which has been long overdue like 4 yrs. Those crying nerf seem more like the glass half empty crowd the the glass half full crowd. Me I'm just happy they are actually improving something in eve for once. Be nice to have that short range T2 ammo be good for something then just a waste of locker space. If it is a nerf for mission runners then maybe its just a boost for inventors.
Agent Known	Posted - 2010.10.21 18:27:00 - [100] Faction ammo is mostly used when people don't train T2 or "just because". Ammo like Barrage and Scorch are still extremely popular yet faction ammo sells well. Just because T2 short range ammo gets a boost doesn't mean squat. On another note, I also have an annoying sig.
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2010.10.21 19:44:00 - [101] Originally by: Agent Known Faction ammo is mostly used when people don't train T2 or "just because". Ammo like Barrage and Scorch are still extremely popular yet faction ammo sells well. Just because T2 short range ammo gets a boost doesn't mean squat. Hybrid t2 short range ammo has tracking penalties that make it considerably worse than faction ammo.

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