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Upcoming drake nerf, train minmitar or amarr?

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Limvala Adur	Posted - 2010.10.28 19:04:00 - [241] Originally by: Jacob Stov @ Limvala: If you want ships that are fine for PvP and at the same time good for PvE skill for Minmatar. Selectable damage types, acces to armor tanked ships and ships that can actually explore the advantages of beeing shield tanked. Tell me one thing you wont want to train Minmatar for? (Sub-cap level)
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.10.28 19:07:00 - [242] Originally by: Limvala Adur Originally by: Jacob Stov @ Limvala: If you want ships that are fine for PvP and at the same time good for PvE skill for Minmatar. Selectable damage types, acces to armor tanked ships and ships that can actually explore the advantages of beeing shield tanked. Tell me one thing you wont want to train Minmatar for? (Sub-cap level) Shall we start with Recons? -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Leksi Bar'zuk	Posted - 2010.10.28 19:11:00 - [243] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Limvala Adur Originally by: Jacob Stov @ Limvala: If you want ships that are fine for PvP and at the same time good for PvE skill for Minmatar. Selectable damage types, acces to armor tanked ships and ships that can actually explore the advantages of beeing shield tanked. Tell me one thing you wont want to train Minmatar for? (Sub-cap level) Shall we start with Recons? -Liang plays the tiny violin for Liang
Limvala Adur	Posted - 2010.10.28 19:12:00 - [244] Originally by: Liang Nuren Shall we start with Recons? -Liang Hey Liang, off topic but your PvE Raven Guide helped me a lot, thanks. Now, into the fray: Rapier / Huginn - What exactly is wrong with these two? Not to mention that one of the is as common as a dramiel, in null sec at least - The Rapier. Lim
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Final Agony B A N E	Posted - 2010.10.28 19:13:00 - [245] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Limvala Adur Tell me one thing you wont want to train Minmatar for? (Sub-cap level) Shall we start with Recons? -Liang Since when? I wouldnt want to run a hit-and-run gang without 2-3 Huginns tbh. Couldnt imagine a better forward scout than a probing Rapier either. Now, I realize a lot of people whine about the 60% webs, but its simply they have no clue how to fly the ship properly.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.28 19:36:00 - [246] Originally by: Limvala Adur Originally by: Liang Nuren Shall we start with Recons? -Liang Hey Liang, off topic but your PvE Raven Guide helped me a lot, thanks. Now, into the fray: Rapier / Huginn - What exactly is wrong with these two? Not to mention that one of the is as common as a dramiel, in null sec at least - The Rapier. Lim Apart from being utterly obseleted by the Loki, they're as good as they ever were. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Berendas Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2010.10.28 19:40:00 - [247] Personally, I love my Rapier. Worse than the Loki? Definetly but its cheap and a blast to solo in.
Leksi Bar'zuk	Posted - 2010.10.28 19:41:00 - [248] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Limvala Adur Originally by: Liang Nuren Shall we start with Recons? -Liang Hey Liang, off topic but your PvE Raven Guide helped me a lot, thanks. Now, into the fray: Rapier / Huginn - What exactly is wrong with these two? Not to mention that one of the is as common as a dramiel, in null sec at least - The Rapier. Lim Apart from being utterly obseleted by the Loki, they're as good as they ever were. AHA, yes it's obsoleted b...oh wait that ship is matari too... damn.
Limvala Adur	Posted - 2010.10.28 19:42:00 - [249] Originally by: Malcanis Apart from being utterly obseleted by the Loki, they're as good as they ever were. Аgree I do with you on that theory, however I must ask how exactly did you figure mixing the t3 mattar ship into this will make your statement true in this particular argument? You basically said that the two best ships at this particular EWAR type are only bested by another ship, which is (imagine that), again Minmattat. Lim
Berendas Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2010.10.28 19:49:00 - [250] Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Some exellent shiptoasting, but nothing (even from the haters) about why drakes are too good or why caldari is a righteous winnar in pvp (obviously not the case) without the drake. Guess they gave into reason and htfu'd? Keep looking, there are plenty of arguments of why the Drake needs to be balanced and why Caldari are good in PVP. You just choose not to bring up counterpoints in favor of mindless flaming
Limvala Adur	Posted - 2010.10.28 19:56:00 - [251] Originally by: Berendas Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Some exellent shiptoasting, but nothing (even from the haters) about why drakes are too good or why caldari is a righteous winnar in pvp (obviously not the case) without the drake. Guess they gave into reason and htfu'd? Keep looking, there are plenty of arguments of why the Drake needs to be balanced and why Caldari are good in PVP. You just choose not to bring up counterpoints in favor of mindless flaming I humbly have to disagree and add this statement: Caldari ships are excellent support for ships that are good at PvP.
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.10.28 19:57:00 - [252] Meh I trained Minmatar I dont give a **** anymore so NERF CALDARI NERF THE DRAKE! DRAKE IS OVERPOWERED!
Leksi Bar'zuk	Posted - 2010.10.28 20:00:00 - [253] Originally by: Berendas Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Some exellent shiptoasting, but nothing (even from the haters) about why drakes are too good or why caldari is a righteous winnar in pvp (obviously not the case) without the drake. Guess they gave into reason and htfu'd? Keep looking, there are plenty of arguments of why the Drake needs to be balanced and why Caldari are good in PVP. You just choose not to bring up counterpoints in favor of mindless flaming I didn't know that pointing out the obvious flaws in your terrible logic was flaming. My apoligies sir!
Berendas Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2010.10.28 20:04:00 - [254] Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Originally by: Berendas Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Some exellent shiptoasting, but nothing (even from the haters) about why drakes are too good or why caldari is a righteous winnar in pvp (obviously not the case) without the drake. Guess they gave into reason and htfu'd? Keep looking, there are plenty of arguments of why the Drake needs to be balanced and why Caldari are good in PVP. You just choose not to bring up counterpoints in favor of mindless flaming I didn't know that pointing out the obvious flaws in your terrible logic was flaming. My apoligies sir! You weren't pointing out anything. You offered no reasons to back your argument. You basically quote people's posts and say "You are wrong," and leave it there, with some random insults mixed in ofc.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.10.28 20:07:00 - [255] Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk plays the tiny violin for Liang Try again. A few things: - I fly all sub caps. ALL OF THEM. And quite a few caps. Don't play a violin for me because if there's a FOTM I can fly it. - The Minnie recons are trivially the worst recons. - Minnie is not the only "good" sub cap race by a long shot (Amarr with BS and Caldari with BC, for example) - Anyone that feels Caldari "can't PVP" is deluding themselves. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Berendas Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2010.10.28 20:09:00 - [256] Originally by: Limvala Adur Originally by: Berendas Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Some exellent shiptoasting, but nothing (even from the haters) about why drakes are too good or why caldari is a righteous winnar in pvp (obviously not the case) without the drake. Guess they gave into reason and htfu'd? Keep looking, there are plenty of arguments of why the Drake needs to be balanced and why Caldari are good in PVP. You just choose not to bring up counterpoints in favor of mindless flaming I humbly have to disagree and add this statement: Caldari ships are excellent support for ships that are good at PvP. I don't disagree with you, Caldari are great support. But support is a part of PVP so I think Caldari can be considered good for PVP, albeit in different situations than the other races.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.28 20:15:00 - [257] Originally by: Limvala Adur Originally by: Malcanis Apart from being utterly obseleted by the Loki, they're as good as they ever were. Аgree I do with you on that theory, however I must ask how exactly did you figure mixing the t3 mattar ship into this will make your statement true in this particular argument? You basically said that the two best ships at this particular EWAR type are only bested by another ship, which is (imagine that), again Minmattat. Lim I'm not arguing against Minmatar, I'm just saying that the Huginn (and Lachesis) are massively inferior to the Loki (and Proteus). The Curse and the Rook are not similarly overshadowed. Come to that I'm in a Sabre right now. That right there is a good answer to "why Minmatar?". Lovely ship. I ♥ the Hurricane too. One nice thing about having skills to fly every subcap (bar black ops, but those are for alts) is that you get an uncluttered perspective. You get to see the advantages and disadvantages of each race's lineup much more clearly. And also of each ship class. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Limvala Adur	Posted - 2010.10.28 20:17:00 - [258] True at that, but support can only go so far. All races have support, Caldari just feels like it has nothing but support. Lim
bitters much Nekkid Inc.	Posted - 2010.10.28 20:22:00 - [259] To be honest, if missiles are causing the lag spikes why not just swap the missile slots for turret slots ? Railguns are fine anyway and you get insta dps on your target.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.28 20:36:00 - [260] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 28/10/2010 20:43:25 Since we've been having such an intelligent discussion...here's the only real meat from a dev on the subject since the whine threads first proliferated: Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Malcanis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4 http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/skyral/thefirewall.mp4 if you want to download it. Dont worry about drakes. They're easily countered. We have no doubt that new strategies would emerge given time as posted earlier in the thread (though smartbombs also are quite load heavy albeit pretty - nice vid btw!). It still does not change the reality that we want to ensure enjoyable fleet fights for all which is our primary objective for fleet fights. Currently the drake and the many fleets utilizing it are burdening the server with much higher load simultaneously being the chief cause of the lag and then resilient to lags effects since over the sheer weight of fleet numbers we need to cope with. The logical path is to drill down and find the root cause of this popularity, something we have done by posing the question openly with you all as well to which many of you have objectively or passionately replied and broached the topic nicely which has been very cool to see. If the reason is imbalance in the ship itself or with the missiles, then its typically something that is straight forward to change in a much shorter time frame than our longer term investigation and refactoring of the missile system for example which would take significantly more man-hours (lots and lots comparatively but it will be done someday). The fighter bombers are receiving fake missiles but changing missiles you are I fire from a ship takes a lot more design and code work since we need to redo many of the game mechanics surrounding missiles if that is to happen and is not something we would label short term or even medium term to an extent given the size of the change. As CCP Atlas commented on here, we are exploring all possibilities right now. One thing that has risen from our analysis of fleet fights for example of the many drake pilots, is that only half are grouping their launchers. This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well. That should stoke the flames a bit. My take away: if you'd like to lessen the possibility of the Drake getting changed/nerfed, tell every Drake pilot/FC in earshot to group their goddamn missiles. ED: LINKAGE. ED2: And if you read the end of it there, CCP is as likely to do a missile buff to fix this problem as they are to do a Drake nerf.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.10.28 20:37:00 - [261] Edited by: Malcanis on 28/10/2010 20:38:32 Originally by: Limvala Adur True at that, but support can only go so far. All races have support, Caldari just feels like it has nothing but support. Lim As far as big fleets go, yep I agree. It's very difficult to bring a Caldari DPS ship to fleets that isn't a Drake right now. The Raven actually does pretty well as a short-range armour RR BS, but not many people recognise that, and even fewer fit it properly to do the job. The Rokh is a superlative shield tanked sniper, which would be good if there were ever any shield tanked or sniper BS fleets. The Scorpion remains, as ever, almost a great ship. As an ECM fleet ship, it's sabotaged down by it's abysmal EHP. Caldari ships can't join AHAC fleets as anything except suicide dictors or probers. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Corporal Punishment08 Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.10.28 20:47:00 - [262] Edited by: Corporal Punishment08 on 28/10/2010 20:49:27 Here's your Drake Nerf: http://www.evenews24.com/2010/10/28/video-the-initiative-firewall/ This starts happening more, Drakes will magically disappear from combat. Also, did we all forget defender missiles???
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.28 21:02:00 - [263] Originally by: Corporal Punishment08 Also, did we all forget defender missiles??? Defenders only work on missiles fire at you. Knocking down one or two of 50 missiles fired at you is not productive.
Corporal Punishment08 Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.10.28 21:07:00 - [264] Hey, that's a good point. Anyways, I didn't sift through other ppls posts, but someone already beat me to it, I just get my news from a different site. Pretty cool tactic though. Lights up the sky!
Wardeneo Minmatar	Posted - 2010.10.28 21:29:00 - [265] Originally by: Liang Nuren They would hardly boost rockets if they didn't want missiles in PVP. -Liang agreed and rockets need a boost... :) . - Wardeneo - - Elite Forum Ninja -
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.10.28 22:14:00 - [266] Originally by: Wardeneo Originally by: Liang Nuren They would hardly boost rockets if they didn't want missiles in PVP. -Liang agreed and rockets need a boost... :) Well, you could start by reading dev blogs or the test server feedback. ;-) -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Leksi Bar'zuk	Posted - 2010.10.28 22:15:00 - [267] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The logical path is to drill down and find the root cause of this popularity, something we have done by posing the question openly with you all as well to which many of you have objectively or passionately replied and broached the topic nicely which has been very cool to see. If the reason is imbalance in the ship itself or with the missiles, then its typically something that is straight forward to change in a much shorter time frame than our longer term investigation and refactoring of the missile system for example which would take significantly more man-hours (lots and lots comparatively but it will be done someday). The fighter bombers are receiving fake missiles but changing missiles you are I fire from a ship takes a lot more design and code work since we need to redo many of the game mechanics surrounding missiles if that is to happen and is not something we would label short term or even medium term to an extent given the size of the change. As CCP Atlas commented on here, we are exploring all possibilities right now. One thing that has risen from our analysis of fleet fights for example of the many drake pilots, is that only half are grouping their launchers. This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well. Can't wait to see what they nerf next o reduce lag. I find it hard to imagine missiles are the only culprit.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.10.28 22:22:00 - [268] Originally by: Seriously Bored That should stoke the flames a bit. My take away: if you'd like to lessen the possibility of the Drake getting changed/nerfed, tell every Drake pilot/FC in earshot to group their goddamn missiles. ED: LINKAGE. ED2: And if you read the end of it there, CCP is as likely to do a missile buff to fix this problem as they are to do a Drake nerf. Yeah, it sounds like they may just forcibly group everyone's missiles by removing launcher slots and boosting missile damage. That'd be ok in my book too. :) -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.10.28 22:26:00 - [269] Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Can't wait to see what they nerf next o reduce lag. I find it hard to imagine missiles are the only culprit. It sounds like ungrouped weapons and manual cycling weapons can cause lag. Changing missiles seems like it causes problems, and from looking at the CPU graphs the act of deploying drones causes a pretty good lag spike. After that I think they may be down to pretty serious algorithmic changes and ensuring that the communication pipelines are clear and well structured. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Leksi Bar'zuk	Posted - 2010.10.28 22:35:00 - [270] Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 28/10/2010 22:36:36 Having been witness to recent operations between the russians and the NC, I can see why they're throwing the kitchen sink at the lag issue (though it's certainly been improved from months ago), but i'm not too anxious to see what exactly comes out of this. The root causes (if you are correct) mean tinkering with missiles and drones, which (ironically) only mucks with the primary weapon systems of the (certainly) weaker half of EVEs races. Who knows, maybe they'll stumble over some code while they fix this and buff railguns by accident?

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