If so, is CCP going to give those effected by this change (who might have capitals trapped because they can't cyno to their alts any more) the ability to change their base race?

I hope your capitals aren't really relying on a bunch of rookie ships.

Tribal Band

obligatory :facepalm:

ITT: many people show they don't know how to read. DEV response requested. Not pubbie sperg wanted.

I'm so sorry that you can't use a noobship to light a cyno. Go cry more and buy a real ship.


Noob ships being able to light cynos is moronic anyway.

ITT: many people show they don't know how to read. DEV response requested. Not pubbie sperg wanted.

Because using a T1 frigate for cynos is too much of a burden.

ITT: many people show they don't know how to read. DEV response requested. Not pubbie sperg wanted.

Try here

When it comes down to it, cyno lighting on rookie frigates is an activity that we don't explicitly design for. We have no problem with people doing it but we will not guarantee that all the design decisions we make will support it.

In this case we built the rookie frigates to highlight the differences in the races' ship design philosophies, by making the rookie frigates a scaled down version of the kind of stat progressions you'll run into at higher tiers. Amarr ships tend to have slightly smaller cargoholds than other races since they don't need the space for ammo.

In the end we gave all the rookie ships (including the Impairor) a significant buff to cyno lighting since they no longer need MAPCs. The buff to that specific use was not intentional but it was something we knew would be happening and we were fine with it. The Impairor got slightly less of a buff for cyno lighting than the others, but once again I consider that fine since lighting cynos isn't a core use for the ship.

In the end my advice is to stock some expanded cargoholds with your cyno gens and celebrate that you no longer need the more expensive MAPCs.

ITT: many people show they don't know how to read. DEV response requested. Not pubbie sperg wanted.

I'm a newbie and even I am blown away by this.

A) There's been a dev response
B) Why would CCP essentially remove functionality like this from just one race's rookie ship and leave it for the other three? They wouldn't and didn't.
C) Even if somehow, Amarr rookie ships lost the ability completely, what's stopping you from buying a different ship to cyno?

Tribal Band member calling people pubbies?

Nice one!

I remember you from TEST jabber. You are the biggest sperg on the internet who is full of the dumbest ideas known to man. Biomass your character.

I am here to spurge in the OP's thread.

Maybe using ships intended for cyno's is what CCP wants you to do?

Spurge complete. Thank you for your time.

So...how long does it take to train up an impairor?

Then perhaps it should be taken away from ALL rookie ship rather than effecting a single race only?



I think you mean a ship other than Impairor. Unfortunately that isn't the right question as the ability being lost isn't one you can train to get back. The question is how can an Amarr player train to get free, ready to go, cyno ships when they dock like the rest of the races?

Umm, you're not losing any ability. You just aren't gaining one.

And Amarr players could go with Cyno 5, if the 2500 isk for a Cargo Expander 1 is too expensive.

I would like to have a response to this from a Dev. I want to know if taking away the ablity to use the Impairor as a cyno ship while leaving the other race's rookie ships able to do so was intentional. If so, is CCP going to give those effected by this change (who might have capitals trapped because they can't cyno to their alts any more) the ability to change their base race?

So, what's the issue again?

they're already said FIT A CARGO EXTENDER.

Someone's upset that instead of having to fit a 500k Isk MAPC to Noobship Cyno, they have to fit a 2k Isk Cargo Expander to Noobship cyno.

That's awful. CCP are evil at times I tell ya, they really are.

You work extremely hard at missing the point. Did you have to have training to be that stupid or does it come naturally to you?

A) I am talking to the Dev right now.

B) Not sure, but they did.

C) Why should only one race have to do this while all the others don't?

ITT: many people show they don't know how to read. DEV response requested. Not pubbie sperg wanted.

Are you going to fly out to the edge of the map to provide one? If I am not amarr, I don't have to fit anything extra. I can just pod jump to any station I have a cyno and fuel at and jump with no changes necessary.

The cargo expander is not a valid solution in any way at all. If you honestly think it is, then I am pretty sure you have never dealt with nul-sec logistics for an alliance before if you have ever even jumped a capital at all, which I doubt.

If you have the means to place Cynos and fuel at stations then you have the means to place a cargo expander there as well. Please leave troll posts up to the professionals; Suddenly Forums ForumKings is much better at it.

A) I am talking to the Dev right now.

B) Not sure, but they did.

C) Why should only one race have to do this while all the others don't?

When two tribes go to war... a point is all that you can score.

I HAD the means to place cynos there. I HAD the means to put cargo expanders there. Since the implications of this change were not detailed in any dev blog, I no longer have that ability.

Again, this is about balance. Either make it so that all these ships can cyno or make it so that none can.

They were detailed in the Patch notes released well before the patch.

They were detailed in a thread on the subject by CCP Fozzie.

The fact that they were being changed was announced in a Dev Blog.

If being able to cyno in a noobship is critical to you, you should have been paying attention after the Devblog mentioned that they would be altered. That would have lead you to CCP Fozzie's thread, possibly to SISI, and to look at the patch notes before patch day.

Also, Amarr Noobships had the ability to Cyno with 1 fitting module, and with the new change, they have the ability to Cyno with ... one fitting module.

This doesn't have anything to do with new players, but with disposable alts.

Make cyno an 8x skill, and cyno only mountable on black ops battleships, and this will be a better game.

The post you are referring to is #241 on page 13 of the thread which you are talking about and the changes weren't obvious unless you were paying very very detailed attention.

Look, if I was arguing that it should be changed because I was being inconvenienced by it, then I would agree with your argument. But you are arguing against yourself. You are making that argument, not I.

Right now the only starter race that is any different in abilities from the other is Amarr and the nerf only affects characters who choose Amarr as their starter race. That is pretty much the definition of unbalanced. If you are a new player and rolled Amarr, you would be better off rerolling a different race and just training Amarr ships.

C) Why should only one race have to do this while all the others don't?

Who says my alt is disposable? Just because one of its uses is to light cynos doesn't mean it is 'disposable' or only used for that reason.

Fozzie's thread is actually here, first post*:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=136238

The Amarr noobship also doesn't have an ECM bonus. Or a Sensor Damp bonus. Or a Target painting bonus. The other Noobships don't put up as stiff of an Armor buffer.

Different != Unbalanced. It's actually the premise behind ship balancing in EVE. (By the way, I'm not particularly pleased with the change, as one of my cyno alts is Amarr, so y'know what I did? I bought a stack of Cargo Expanders and sold off my MAPCs. And it's not a problem any more.)

*This is actually the thread I thought the link in the first page of this thread was linking to.
This post, specifically:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1689589#post1689589

Fozzie's thread is actually here, first post*:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=136238

The Amarr noobship also doesn't have an ECM bonus. Or a Sensor Damp bonus. Or a Target painting bonus. The other Noobships don't put up as stiff of an Armor buffer.

Different != Unbalanced. It's actually the premise behind ship balancing in EVE. (By the way, I'm not particularly pleased with the change, as one of my cyno alts is Amarr, so y'know what I did? I bought a stack of Cargo Expanders and sold off my MAPCs. And it's not a problem any more.)

*This is actually the thread I thought the link in the first page of this thread was linking to.
This post, specifically:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1689589#post1689589

The issue is one of balance.......
...snip...
But my IQ can't take taking down at your level anymore.

It is one of balance and cyno usage is not part of that equation. I know with that high IQ of yours, you may have issues understanding this. But the ship was, is and never will be, balanced around cyno usage.

Thank you for showing us your massive intellect and excellent use of English. It's been a pleasure for all. Now go buy yourself a cargo expander and shhhh, there's a good lad.

I cry shenanigans on your assertion. The rookie ships have always been unbalanced. The gallante ship has a 10m drone bay and bandwidth. This gives the gallante a severe advantage in combat, especially if you can field t2 drones. Given that thus has always been the case, your assertion of the ships being equal is invalid.

words.

Ghost Frog wrote:ps3ud0nym wrote:
garbled warbling

cynos take almost exactly 5 days to train.


You need Cyno IV to fit the correct amount of fuel to use a Rookie ship, with the exception of the Impairor. With the Impairor you will need cyno V, which is quite a bit longer than 5 days. That or bring cargo expanders. The headaches and extra logistics can be avoided by simply rolling another race and training the Amarr ship skills.

You can even still buy the Impairor off the market if you really want to fly it.

Wait so in response to what you said in the other thread - you think people don't light cynos in force recons? I'm sorry if I'm not so risk averse as to only light cynos in the cheapest possible ships, but yes, people use force recons for cynos. People use far more expensive ships than force recons to light cynos.

Now, literally the only disadvantage you'd have on an Amarr character is having to move a T1 cargo expander. That's hardly a burden.

Point taken. Use some other race to create super cheap cynos. While you're at it, don't use Minnie or CAldari, cause their carriers aren't as good. Don't use Amarr cause their noob cynos suck and their ships are slow. Don't use Caldari cause missiles suck. don't use Gallente cause, well, they're french or something. In other words, ships differ by race. What's your issue again?

btw if you're training a noob ship cyno to Cyno V you're a frigging moron. a noob ship cyno should always have less than 900k sp.

Only idiots light cynos in force recons.

It is good that you recognize that it is a disadvantage and it only applies to Amarr! Thank you for validating my entire point. =)

I'm an idiot for lighting a cyno in a ship that can hold enough LO3 for more cyno activations than any other cruiser/frigate and is only tied down for 5 minutes as opposed to 10. Good to know.

And sure it's a "disadvantage" but it's far from a significant one.

Yes. You are. Please let me know where you live and I will come and show you why it is a bad idea. I am certainly not opposed to force recon kills! =D

It is still a disadvantage and the change needed to fix it is also far from a significant one. 5.2 m3 of cargo space.

I would like to have a response to this from a Dev. I want to know if taking away the ablity to use the Impairor as a cyno ship while leaving the other race's rookie ships able to do so was intentional. If so, is CCP going to give those effected by this change (who might have capitals trapped because they can't cyno to their alts any more) the ability to change their base race?

Intelligent stuff

Are you going to fly out to the edge of the map to provide one? If I am not amarr, I don't have to fit anything extra. I can just pod jump to any station I have a cyno and fuel at and jump with no changes necessary.

The cargo expander is not a valid solution in any way at all. If you honestly think it is, then I am pretty sure you have never dealt with nul-sec logistics for an alliance before if you have ever even jumped a capital at all, which I doubt.

Feel free to shoot a blue recon. Given that rookie ships are not intended as cyno ships, you'll never see it "fixed."

I guess you could get the expander from the same place you get the generator and fuel from.

If the other 3 ships had a built in generator so something and the amarr ship was the only one you had to add a mod to, I would see your point.

No ships are "intended" as cyno ships really. You will notice that there are these things called fitting slots on your ship. They are there so that they can be configured any way you would like depending on the use YOU intend on using it for. That is why it is called a sandbox.

[.

Goons historically haven't been blue to 99 (we formed specifically to fight you actually). The current standings are based on convenience and will likely be reviewed once the current conflict is over. We only became blue to you because of Delve. Did you not think there was a reason for that?

No ships are "intended" as cyno ships really. You will notice that there are these things called fitting slots on your ship. They are there so that they can be configured any way you would like depending on the use YOU intend on using it for. That is why it is called a sandbox.

Exactly, if you fly Amarr, you just have to fit your ship accordingly and you can cyno in the rookie ship just like any other.

No ships are "intended" as cyno ships really. You will notice that there are these things called fitting slots on your ship. They are there so that they can be configured any way you would like depending on the use YOU intend on using it for. That is why it is called a sandbox.

Caldari need to train small projectile skill to fit auto cannons on there ships. The noob ships are not made to fit cyno just like the Ibis is not designed to fit auto cannons. But the ibis can fit auto cannons with a few minutes of train time just like the Amarr can fit a cyno with a expanded cargo and some train time.

Do you not realize you are crying over spilled milk?

You'll notice that CCP puts ships into the game with specific roles in mind. While you can use them in unintended ways, CCP is not obligated to ensure that a ship can be used in a manner that is not the within the scope of its role.

Again, you are talking about ship balance, which has nothing to do with the point I am making. If Rookie ships were provided off the market and seeded by NPCs I would agree with you. The reality is that they are generated by a player choice made before they have even loaded the station environment. They have no way to make an informed decision.

So, which of those fitting decisions did you make before loading a station environment for the first time?

You are talking about ship balance. If that is what gets your rocks off, you can continue to do so. But keep in mind that you are arguing against a point that i am not making. This has to do with racial balance and has nothing to do with in-game ship balance.

So you're saying your present blue status with the Goons and associates is a marriage of convenience and you're likely to set them at red when it's no longer convenient? So I guess you've reached that time that it's no longer convenient.

So, which of those fitting decisions did you make before loading a station environment for the first time?

You are talking about ship balance. If that is what gets your rocks off, you can continue to do so. But keep in mind that you are arguing against a point that i am not making. This has to do with racial balance and has nothing to do with in-game ship balance.

Where's the balance between projectile turrets and laser turrets when considering capacitor requirements. Balance does not necessarily have to be like for like it can be balanced in others ways.

As Andski already mentioned, CCP are redoing the ships to give specific roles to ships, of course they can be used for something else other than what they're designed for but they should be most efficient being used for what they're designed to do.

You are crying over literally 20 minutes of train time and one simple T1 mod, that will put you right back to where you want to be! OH NO Amarr are a half a hour behind on a noobie cyno alt!

I cant do it any more, I am done. Your ignorance knows no bounds. I hope you never breed for the sake of the world.

Races should not be balanced. You should gain an advantage here, and lose something there. Different races should be different.
We aren't all the same on the inside, like everyone wants to think.

Again, you are talking about ship balance, which has nothing to do with the point I am making. If Rookie ships were provided off the market and seeded by NPCs I would agree with you. The reality is that they are generated by a player choice made before they have even loaded the station environment. They have no way to make an informed decision and no way to change it once made.

So.. how much training time does it take to make it so that a different newbie ship appears in my hanger when I arrive in my pod in a new station?

I am sure the person who made the argument you just shot down is an idiot. Good thing it isn't an argument that I made.

So.. how much training time does it take to make it so that a different newbie ship appears in my hanger when I arrive in my pod in a new station?

I am sure the person who made the argument you just shot down is an idiot. Good thing it isn't an argument that I made.

Before this change they were balanced. There was no difference in races except for the location of their starting stations and the Rookie ships. It didn't used to be that way. It used to be that each race got different bonuses and if you used the wrong race for the wrong thing you were at a disadvantage. CCP changed that for good reason and I don't think we should be taking a step back in that direction.

Please read the part of the quote that I put in bold. It appears that evrey thing is still...... yup exactly the same.

Before the nerf, each rookie ship was pretty much exactly the same. The main use for rookie ships after the trial is for using as a cyno. Amarr now has a significant disadvantage in this usage case which can be avoided by rolling any other race while incurring no disadvantage for the non-amarr race.

Are you actually trying to argue that there is no difference before and after the patch? You have to be seriously disconnected from reality to take that position.

Really? I use mine as slightly more annoying shuttles.

That isn't really a usage case =P. Although I supposed you can argue that one valid usage is also for travel. Cynos aren't the only usage case for newbie ships, just a common one.

That isn't really a usage case =P. Although I supposed you can argue that one valid usage is also for travel. Cynos aren't the only usage case for newbie ships, just a common one. Either way, you are getting into ship balance again, which is beyond the scope of what we are discussing.

My entire corporation avoids using noob ships for cynoing. They tend to use cheap real frigates for it, instead. Sometimes, they self destruct them.

This is taken from the Blog on ship balance:

GÇóImpairor, Ibis, Velator and Reaper: letGÇÖs not forget rookie ships, as they also are lacking at the moment. We want them to be very versatile ships, able to give new players a good taste of what their race ship philosophy is all about, without reaching the efficiency of other tech 1 frigates in any given role.



Notice the new player part, that's what a rookie ship is all about. It's not a ship for some alt to use as a cyno, that's not it designed function.

*snip*

People who know better will simply stop rolling Amarr characters period.

*snip*

However, if you ROLL Amarr, you will forever be at a disadvantage when compared to the other races for cynoing and there is nothing you can do about it. So you are better off taking any race other than Amarr as a starter race.

*snip*

Before the nerf, each rookie ship was pretty much exactly the same. The main use for rookie ships after the trial is for using as a cyno. Amarr now has a significant disadvantage in this usage case which can be avoided by rolling any other race while incurring no disadvantage for the non-amarr race. The only disadvantages that is incurred is if you rolled Amarr during character creation. That is before the player starts the game and before they have the information needed to make an informed decision. That violates the design principals of the game and further burdens the new player experience.

Are you actually trying to argue that there is no difference before and after the patch? You have to be seriously disconnected from reality to take that position.

You are really good at knocking down arguments that you invented! As I have repeatedly said, I am not talking about ship balance. Good job smashing down an argument that hasn't been made however.

Ok here we go.

There are 2 points
A. this is where you start as any race
B. This is the point where you can cyno in a noob ship

All races can still go from point A to point B, it takes Amarr 20 minutes longer. It is not like Amarr can never go from point A to point B.

You are turning 20 minutes in to some game breaking change. set a skill to train, go make a sandwich and eat it, then come back and buy a cargo expander and you are at point B.

You make it sound as if they took away the Amarr Battleship skill.

Yet again your crying over spilled milk.

Um... So is RvB the only group that flies rookie ships in a combat roll? Sure iy is for a laugh or when greatly out numbering the other side. Still it is a common use for us.

Also, op you claim this is not a ship balance issue, yet your only proposed solution was to adjust the amarr rookie ship's cargo by 5.2 cubic meters. That seem to fit the concept of requesting a ship balancing

Would you be content if all rookie ships lost 10m cargo space? Then none could light a cyno without matching skills. Would you prefer that when you enter a station in your pod when you have no ship there, you could pick the rookie ship, assuming you meet the minimum flying requirement of having level 1 in that race's frigate skill? Or would you be ok with a simple restriction that cynos could not be fit on a rookie ship at all?

If this is truly not a balance issue, then you would have to be happy with any of those options, otherwise this really is a balance issue.

Imo cyno gens shouldn't be allowed on rookie frigs. If you have the money to use caps then quit being cheap and use at least a kestrel. Hell I would go even further and say cynos can't be used on any frig.

buy a t1 frig? i dont see how you could be trapped without a cyno. take the cyno and put it on a punisher or something. I personally use a Merlin. It is fitted and rigged specifically to get somewhere fast and light a cyno, while being able to KM ***** if necessary. Has cyno, guns, tank, and enough cargo for 450 LO and 1000+ rounds of ammo

I'd go with that too, there's no need to use rookie ships unless you're a rookie.

With the exception of corps like RvB using them for combat training purposes.

Not sure if this has been pointed out, but you can buy and sell rookie ships on the open market. So you're hardly 'locked into it'. I can sell you my Reaper if you'd like, only 100 ISK!

Not sure if this has been pointed out, but you can buy and sell rookie ships on the open market. So you're hardly 'locked into it'. I can sell you my Reaper if you'd like, only 100 ISK!

Yes. You are. Please let me know where you live and I will come and show you why it is a bad idea. I am certainly not opposed to force recon kills! =D

It is still a disadvantage and the change needed to fix it is also far from a significant one. 5.2 m3 of cargo space.

Here is why people will make Amarrian characters despite the fact that they have tiny cargo bays (a fact put into place because Amarrian ships tend to have smaller cargo bays on average).

Amarrians can wear hooded robes.

GG

You really need to ask were a goon lives?

CCP should send you a personal email, "dear sir, you're a douche." and be done with it.
Or they should just make it so that no rookie ships can be used to light cynos, so that you stop being a little *****. Serious ***** move on your part, talking **** whle you fly around in a rookie ship to light a cyno. Coward.

You might wish to take some reading comprehension lessons. Thank you for supporting exactly the ideas I have suggested to fix the issue. Good to see you have come around to my point of view!

7 pages.
of you crying.
Over a cargo expander.

You go you!

Seriously I just read that and I forgot math, not just like 2+2 or Pi but like all the math I had ever known.

Reading your posts makes my brain hurt, as if your ignorance can be contracted over the internet. I believe we have a new scientific phenomenon.

SNIP

Truth

The problem that you seem to be missing here is that -it is not a big deal-. By the time you're using Cyno's, you probably have the money to buy a spare cargo expander.

No one, ever, is going to make the decision of what race of character to make based on that races noobship. It is not going to happen. If someone DID make that decision based on that races noobship (and more specifically the fact that that ship requires a not expensive at all cargo expander to fit enough fuel to light a cyno field), I am going to laugh at them. I will do so heartilly and gladly. It's a really dumb concern, as should be made clear to you by the fact that in this entire 7 page thread and all the threads you made before it (and have risked being forum banned for by reposting the same thread over and over) has agreed with you, in whole or in part.

CCP has said they want the noobships to be tiny little tastes of what the ships of that race are like. This means you get a smaller cargohold than average with an Amarrian one.

Harden The **** Up.

Then what is your issue? Fit a damned cargo extender and move on with your life.

Then what is your issue? Fit a damned cargo extender and move on with your life.

Dear god. Are you completely unable to read? I have repeated my point in every single post I have made.

1) The change only effects people who rolled Amarr as their base race and is therefore unbalanced
2) The place where the player is forced to make a irrevocable choice that has consequences in terms of game mechanics is at a point where the player does not have enough information to make the decision.

Please tell me which of these two points your comment addresses and how either of them has anything to do with in-game fitting? At that point the player has been given the information they need to make a informed choice, the problem is they are unable to change it now that they have that information.

We just cant hope to win when she is playing a different game with her own rules, where some great injustice has been done to the Amarr race.

She wants it so you can switch what noob ships you get as default, or to improve the ships cargo by a miniscule amount.

We have given her a solution, but its not the one she wants so she continues to cry and ***** about it while saying we aren't solving the problem she is addressing.

You have given a solution to a problem you have made up out of whole cloth. You then pretend that I made that argument and then whine that I don't agree with you?

I think you need to step away from EVE for a while and join the real world. You seem to have lost connection to reality.

It is such a miniscule little difference its not even worth mentioning yet alone a cry baby thread!

Thank you for agreeing with me! There is most certainly a difference and while you might not find it "worth mentioning" it is still a balance issue and should still be addressed. That is why I said in the VERY first post of the thread "It is a minor issue, but still somewhat unbalanced".

Took you a while to come around to my way of thinking. Glad you could join me.

I have lost connection to reality?

You are crying that you have to fit a single T1 mod to cyno now. Who has lost connection to reality here?

Do you really realize hoe small this issue is?

Wow man, celebrate them little victory's! Your life must be so exciting.

Please show me where I am crying that I have to fit a single T1 mod. No matter how many times you say it, it is still something you made up and a point that only you are making. Pretty soon I will be able to make a mattress from out of all the straw your arguments are leaving on the ground.

Please show me where I am crying that I have to fit a single T1 mod. No matter how many times you say it, it is still something you made up and a point that only you are making. Pretty soon I will be able to make a mattress from out of all the straw your arguments are leaving on the ground.

You do realize that just because you say something doesn't make it true. Citation needed.

Thank you for agreeing with me! There is most certainly a difference and while you might not find it "worth mentioning" it is still a balance issue and should still be addressed. That is why I said in the VERY first post of the thread "It is a minor issue, but still somewhat unbalanced".

Took you a while to come around to my way of thinking. Glad you could join me.

I am not arguing about ship balance. You can continue talking about ship balance if you want, but just because it has "balance" in the title doesn't mean it has anything at all to do with what I am talking about.

I think the most apt solution is to make all rookie ships unable to fit a cyno. Then it would be all racialy fair.

Any one can read the thread and see the evidence for them self.

You do notice that on evrey disputed game change there are multiple vocal people on each side?

In this thread its just you blowing your own horn and sounding like A broken record. Not a single person has empathy or agrees with you.

8 pages of "abloobloo races are unbalanced because new players don't know enough to choose a race based on their possible use of noobships as cyno boats in the future, ignoring that the only people for whom this could possibly be important are not new players."

This is the worst whine thread I can recall, and that includes the Antiquarian's epic rant about a shirt. Congratulations.

Nice to see that you have finally came around to agreeing with me! Too bad it took 8 pages of imaginary arguments and pretending that I made them to get there.

Yes, the races are unbalanced. As I said at the very beginning of this thread "It is a minor issue, but somewhat unbalanced". Thank you for agreeing with me.

Dear god. Are you completely unable to read? I have repeated my point in every single post I have made.

1) The change only effects people who rolled Amarr as their base race and is therefore unbalanced
2) The place where the player is forced to make a irrevocable choice that has consequences in terms of game mechanics is at a point where the player does not have enough information to make the decision.

Please tell me which of these two points your comment addresses and how either of them has anything to do with in-game fitting? At that point the player has been given the information they need to make a informed choice, the problem is they are unable to change it now that they have that information.