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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2010.12.13 15:50:00 -
[1]
In his new dev blog, GM Grimmi discusses the ongoing efforts of Unholy Rage and the continued work towards removing macroers from the game and how we continue to work against real money transfers (RMT).
Fallout
Associate Community Manager
CCP Hf, EVE Online
Contact us |
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iP0D
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Posted - 2010.12.13 15:54:00 -
[2]
Edited by: iP0D on 13/12/2010 15:58:03
Do you realise how close the relationship is between patterns of game design and factors that give way to botting over the past few years?
The impact of removal of 30 and 90 day GTC codes? The impact of pushing PLEX purchases directly as the most visible method directly from CCP?
The competition faced in many niches against the in game impact of organised RMT?
How RMT has changed over the years, largely because of game design and GTC/PLEX changes?
How organised RMT simply sidesteps the EULA?
Just out of curiosity.
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium.
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Posted - 2010.12.13 15:55:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/12/2010 15:56:25
The cancer is in item and ship sales - especially of super capitals, rather than in ISK trade. When it's $700 for a supercarrier and a titan, who on earth is going to pay $2,916 for PLEXs for the ISK you'd need to buy them?
This devblog shows what some of us have been saying all along about the post Unholy Rage RMT fight; you guys are looking in all the wrong places.
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Weltact
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2010.12.13 16:03:00 -
[4]
If you still think it is about belts getting sucked dry by botters for rmt, you've got more problems than you think. Things have changed dramatically. That symptom is an extension of resource acquisition patterns as in game complexity, time consumption and volume variables of organisations have grown dramatically.
Ever wondered where the insane influx of ISK that led to the statements at the CSM visits of "the EVE economy is badly managed" and "the EVE economy contains too much ISK" comes from? Go look at the drone regions, 0.0 NPC space ratting and missioning.
Ever wondered why it is that so many new subscribers that come in from other MMO's come in with an acceptance of botting, and how this is reinforced by patterns of game design?
Things have changed. Hard. And looking at it from the outside is no longer a luxury you can afford.
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Batolemaeus
Caldari
Money Liberation Services Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.13 16:04:00 -
[5]
Came expecting news on a crackdown on drone region macro alliances, super capital rmt rings, game design changes, public humiliation of the PI team.
Left disappointed. You don't even have graphs, let alone good news.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
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Posted - 2010.12.13 16:06:00 -
[6]
Is it true or untrue that CCP is the largest RMTgroup making money?
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.13 16:09:00 -
[7]
Have you considered implementing something like Punkbuster to stop python injections used by more and more bots?
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iP0D
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Posted - 2010.12.13 16:12:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Have you considered implementing something like Punkbuster to stop python injections used by more and more bots?
That's a bit of an arms race which is unlikely for them to really maintain. It requires a hell of a lot of effort into behing ahead of the curves, and requires anyway to get down and dirty in dealing with the origins of such crap like python injection.
Think of it, they still seem to think that PLEX is an instrument in fighting RMT without looking at what keeps PLEX the default instrument and more expensive than RMT supply (ISK and ITEMS) and that higher PLEX ISK prices would be good for the economy since that has too much ISK ....
Things have changed, a lot.
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Garr Anders
Minmatar
The Red Circle Inc.
Red Shift Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.13 16:15:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Hundreds of accounts are banned every week for macro use and other RMT related activities
Would it be possible to see a graph with (banned accounts) over (time)?
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Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet.
- referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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protohuman
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Posted - 2010.12.13 16:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Batolemaeus
You don't even have graphs, let alone good news.
Graphs, news ? A blog without numbers !
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Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:19:00 -
[11]
You really forgot one thing here CCP - in all this "Buy PLEX instead of RMT" blog-kind-of-thing You forgot that RMT is, like whole EVE, working on supply and demand - if PLEX costs more than RMT money there will still be tons of people that will buy it - the main concern is not "getting people to start buying plexes instead of RMT", its making harder for sellers to acquire tons of money via botting, and in effect rising price of RMT money, and risk of running RMT operation. Work toward fighting botting and other aplications that interacts with EVE client (like PI clickers, Autopilot warp to 0km things and such).
On a side note - how can You expect from players to obey EULA, when You intentionally ignore biggest EULA breaks - just so you get little more moonies.
Originally by: Mynxee
Agree with IPOD.
It appears that all your efforts are conducted from the outside looking in. Might help to play your own game, CCP; infiltrate the major alliances and gather evidence firsthand about the RMT'ing of supercaps. If players can do it (and they have), so can you. And then you can act accordingly instead of doing nothing because "hearsay", "the logs show nothing", and "but we can't do anything about stuff that happens on third party sites".
THAT is the kind of proactive behavior I want to hear that you're engaging in to stomp RMT into the ground.
I'm really glad I see response like that from CSM member - go team CSM
PS. no graph in blog?? What the hell?
Max Kolonko |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:22:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 13/12/2010 17:13:35
Man up and provide some proof or STFU.
How about the 12 billion ISK a week per system, an amount impossible to meet without botting, that you were charging a few months back, for starters?
I didn't think you had any.
I do think that the most vocal opponents of delayed local are botters and RMTers.
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium.
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:25:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 13/12/2010 17:13:35
Man up and provide some proof or STFU.
How about the 12 billion ISK a week per system, an amount impossible to meet without botting, that you were charging a few months back, for starters?
I didn't think you had any.
I do think that the most vocal opponents of delayed local are botters and RMTers.
Except its most vocal proponents are the ones that stand the most gain from it. No matter how the client interacts with local itself, there is no getting around the fact that a client has to be updated for a new person in the solar system.
Bots read directly from the client's memory. Adding such a delay only makes it more difficult for legitimate users to fight back against the RMT menace.
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KOPOHA MAPCA
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:26:00 -
[14]
No solution of problem, no statistics. Only words. Absolutely useless devblog. You shurely read this articles, CCP - http://www.evenews24.com/2010/12/08/rmt-uncovered-the-interview/ - you know how large is problem. I don't need your words "we will win someday", I need fair play now! Please help us all to play fair, CCP!
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:29:00 -
[15]
Glad to see things going on and hope to see a similar blog like the first Unholy Rage. Keep up the good work.
/c
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:32:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 13/12/2010 17:13:35
Man up and provide some proof or STFU.
How about the 12 billion ISK a week per system, an amount impossible to meet without botting, that you were charging a few months back, for starters?
I didn't think you had any.
I do think that the most vocal opponents of delayed local are botters and RMTers.
Except its most vocal proponents are the ones that stand the most gain from it. No matter how the client interacts with local itself, there is no getting around the fact that a client has to be updated for a new person in the solar system.
Bots read directly from the client's memory. Adding such a delay only makes it more difficult for legitimate users to fight back against the RMT menace.
This would obviously have to be fixed, as was MonkeySphere's wallhack.
Nice try though.
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium.
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:35:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/12/2010 17:35:54
Originally by: Razin
This would obviously have to be fixed, as was MonkeySphere's wallhack.
Nice try though.
If by fix you mean "re-design half of the client/server architecture in order to implement it" then yes, you're right.
I'm not against a proper fix, but I know what kind of development effort it requires. There are much higher priority fixes than making an unexploitable local delay, with much smaller development costs and much better returns therein.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/12/2010 17:35:54
Originally by: Razin
This would obviously have to be fixed, as was MonkeySphere's wallhack.
Nice try though.
If by fix you mean "re-design half of the client/server architecture in order to implement it" then yes, you're right.
I'm not against a proper fix, but I know what kind of development effort it requires. There are much higher priority fixes than making an unexploitable local delay, with much smaller development costs and much better returns therein.
That's just your opinion. And as we know, everyone's got one. As for it's usefulness, this thread has shown your track record to be less than stellar.
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Gneissgrinder
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:39:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Gneissgrinder on 13/12/2010 17:40:08
Edited by: Gneissgrinder on 13/12/2010 17:39:37
hmmmm
is this an informal reply to the following 3 part article on www.evenews24.com ??? hmmmmmm 
click here for link
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Ren Nekk
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:40:00 -
[20]
Pretty lame post tbh. Seems like it was written in 15 minutes. More importantly, it contains just about zero substantial content.
"Way to go guys! Keep reporting those ISK spammers! The fight continues! Spread the word about PLEX! Don't let botting be YOUR fault! Hurrah!"
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EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:40:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Firartix
So while i'm perfectly okay with banning anything like bots, RMT, or automated stuff, why ban macroers ? I don't really get it...
Doesn't macro = bot? The only difference I see is that bot implies that the tool is advanced.
CCRES is recruiting pilots who want to live in WSpace/Wormholes. Fill out an application here! |
Grez
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:42:00 -
[22]
Why do GM's think that botters only bot for RMT? I'd imagine a lot of botters are simply those who don't want to busy ISK via PLEX or other means, but earn it for free by not being at their computer.
Constantly acting as if all botters are part of the RMT scene will get you nowhere.
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4Chan TubeChild
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:47:00 -
[23]
This is such a stupid ass blog. I can't even believe I still play this game.
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Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Originally by: Razin
Edited by: Razin on 13/12/2010 17:13:35
Man up and provide some proof or STFU.
How about the 12 billion ISK a week per system, an amount impossible to meet without botting, that you were charging a few months back, for starters?
I didn't think you had any.
I do think that the most vocal opponents of delayed local are botters and RMTers.
Actually, I dont like idea of delayed local. And i'm not botting neither. It is simply something that is unique to W-space, and doing something like that in K-space is breaking the uniqueness of W-space.
Max Kolonko |
Missm Uppet
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: KOPOHA MAPCA
No solution of problem, no statistics. Only words. Absolutely useless devblog. You shurely read this articles, CCP - http://www.evenews24.com/2010/12/08/rmt-uncovered-the-interview/ - you know how large is problem. I don't need your words "we will win someday", I need fair play now! Please help us all to play fair, CCP!
Agreed with this and other posts here that are similar. Very dissappointing devblog with hollow evidence of any substantial effort. Things have gotten out of hand again. When you tell us that you ban over 100 macro accounts a week and expect us to
be happy with that data, it's almost insulting. With a blanket number like this we are forced to conclude that 99% of those are trial account spammers that you have continued to allow into the game because of your trial account policy. Banning them is of course needed as long as you keep your trial account policy as is, but they have little to do with the real macro problem.
The perception from must of us here is that we're back to where we were a year and a half ago or worse. Indicating that little has been done related to updating your methods of enforcing fairplay.
Macroing and RMT should take a very high priority - player perception of fairness is essential to the success of any MMO, but especially one that is player-driven more than any other.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.12.13 17:57:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Max Kolonko
Actually, I dont like idea of delayed local. And i'm not botting neither. It is simply something that is unique to W-space, and doing something like that in K-space is breaking the uniqueness of W-space.
I think w-space uniqueness is assured by wormhole only access and sleepers.
Instant local provides magically effortless intel, limits play strategies, and allows complete safety to bots.
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:00:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Cyaxares II on 13/12/2010 18:00:52
had to laugh in a slightly hysterical fashion when I thought about what effect this "devblog" will have on the various GD threads.
CCP, you could have just taken the easy route and invented some impressive number "<x>-thousand bots got banned during the last 12 months, <y> big RMT organizations were dissolved" and most people would have been happy.
Instead you decide to go the hard way and pour some additional oil into the fire - #1 forum troll, CCP.
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iP0D
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:08:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Max Kolonko
Actually, I dont like idea of delayed local. And i'm not botting neither. It is simply something that is unique to W-space, and doing something like that in K-space is breaking the uniqueness of W-space.
I think w-space uniqueness is assured by wormhole only access and sleepers.
Instant local provides magically effortless intel, limits play strategies, and allows complete safety to bots.
Yes, w-space is awesome for corporations that "automate" matters (actively and in the background), sharing software and forums and all these things. But let's be honest, w-space has definite attraction, but it is macro heaven for resources. Maybe if the population density were higher, but it is not designed to support that, and yeah well, it is heading the same way as Faction Warfare.
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Aivars Terek
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:09:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Max Kolonko
...if PLEX costs more than RMT money there will still be tons of people that will buy it - the main concern is not "getting people to start buying plexes instead of RMT", its making harder for sellers to acquire tons of money via botting, and in effect rising price of RMT money, and risk of running RMT operation...
true if GMT prices dropped, then the RMT would do so also drop prices or leave game...
somehow i think it'd just mess up the market pricing to drop GMT, though i think it's a good idea
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El Mauru
Amarr
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:22:00 -
[30]
I imagine things like the incursions have got the potential to interrupt botting to a certain degree.
BTW. There was a very informative video interview conducted about RMT btw and it mentioned Eve-Online. I can't link it because links to RMT sites are mentioned, should be up on youtube though - it was conducted by shattered crystal with a known reseller of farmed/botted isk.
Most of the discussion was about WoW, but EVE got mentioned.
Bottomline was:
- EVE has a stable currency as opposed to WoW (only approx. 30% inflation as opposed to Wow, where value of currency fluctuates massively), potentially making it more attractive for farmers.
- 80% of all RMT is still Wow, EVE is an absolute niche-market.
- Botted ISK makes a comparably low faction of "ISK INFLUX" for botters. Most comes from stolen accounts.
- Hackers aquire account details by hacking fan-sites/forums (i.e.: use different passwords for EVE and forums).
- Macro botting on a larger scale (i.e. for isk-resellers) is only marginally worth it in Eve because they have to undercut PLEX-prices, deal with the fact that CCP actually penalizes players (as opposed to other MMORPGs) if caught and the fact that bots still loose ships to stuff + the required logistics train, driving prices up.
- Banning the actual botters deals only marginal damage while banning holding alts would be a real game-breaker to ISK-resellers (i.e.: the guys handling transactions between the farmers and the end-customer).
- The last Ban-wave nearly killed the RMT market for Eve, pushing prices for ISK almost to Plex price.
- Stolen characters are frequently used as spam alts for RMT sites after having been cleaned out.
- Most RMTers rely on announcements/temper in the community on when to go low-profile as to protect their holding characters.
It seems as if the best course of action and the highest chance of success for CCP would be to strike when the whole botting discussion has calmed down again- and to investigate where the transactions between the individual botters and the holding alts take place (for example, freighter jumps from known macro-systems - loosing a JF alt must hurt) or the contract system.
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