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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Darth Vapour
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Posted - 2010.12.14 17:45:00 -
[151]
Just give all NPC rats a 200 km warp disruptor and let the players solve the botting problem.
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FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.14 17:46:00 -
[152]
 Quote:
While we have put much of our focus on the RMT related activities we do realize that botting is not exclusive to RMT in EVE and we do investigate reports and take action against players proven guilty of using macros for mining, ratting, mission running, market activities and whatnot.
Only investigating reports? That explains why there are so many bots around working non-stop, while it would be quite easy to flag them for investigation automatically
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P3k1
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Posted - 2010.12.14 17:47:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Othran
Having said all that, it wouldn't stop most of the bots that are endemic to Eve anyway.
Would changing some of the game mechanic do the trick?
Well I'm off to play da game :)
fly safe
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.12.14 17:52:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Daneel Trevize
Anyone suggested just capping the amount of isk a character can receive in bounties per day/hour/sliding window?
Bots would be forced to rotate through accounts. But doesn't fix drones mineral drops?
Drone mineral drops are meaningless. Mining bots are meaningless. Loot drops are meaningless.
Why?
They simply recycle the money already in the economy - there is no NEW isk being produced. Get a nice loot drop - you still have to sell it. Mine a million miles of veld - still need to sell it or what it builds.
Missions and ratting are the only activities in the game that create brand new CLEAN isk from nothing.
Null sec ratting is the ISK source (and RMT fountain) that needs dealing with most urgently. Simple reason is that a single system with a single bot can produce upwards of 10bill ISK a month. That's not ore you need to haul, nor loot you need to spam at Jita.
That's GOLD. Just like every other game.
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ArchenTheGreat
Caldari
Nomads of Zen
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:04:00 -
[155]
Encrypting connection will not solve bot problems. As far as I understood article at EVE24 bots inject client MEMORY with their own scripts.
You can't really protect from compromising EVE client. You give it to players, and players can freely analyze and decompile it to learn how it works. Theoretically it's possible to create something like CCPs thin client. Bot communicating with servers using EVE protocol but without graphic overhead. You could run hundreds of them on single PC.
So, if you can't protect clients from bots what can you do?
You need to design game in such a way that no computer can play it. PVP works that way already, now it's time for mining and mission running.
Treat it like CAPTCHA on steroids (and more fun).
PS. to ****** who wants to introduce bots to EVE: EVE is a multi PLAYER game. Game for people not machines. If you want to play with bots go play chess against computer, see how much fun you will get from it.
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Candente
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:30:00 -
[156]
The dev blog does reveal one thing, though: CCP is admitting that "fixing" the RMT and botting problem is something very hard to do. What would work better than complaining how much little information the dev blog revealed is to keep surpporting ideas like delayed/upgradable local in 0.0 at Assembly Hall or something. When demanding perfection of the system, please keep in mind that a popular MMO game will not be free of RMT and botting problems no matter how hard the developer tries.
Anyway, thx for the dev blog for at least acknowledging the issue, CCP. It would be better if CCP will take time and response to player suggestions on combat botting/RMT via the CSM meeting.
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rawr~ |
cpu939
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
The Spire Collective
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:46:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Manfred Sideous
STUFF
This would be how I would curbstomp RMT and botting. I think these changes would seriously limit both operations and add more diversity to Eve.
♥ Manny
Manny while i do respect you some times i wonder what you are smoking.
1&4 - botters would just go to empire run lvl 3 missions or run dscan adding lag to the server.
2 - this i like and was going to post this in the idea forum but never got round to it.
3 - what to do about amarr station outposts.
5 - yes i can see a game bug or a gm not doing there job right might be due to an off day and a player being baned then free who every post hitting the forums.
before we remove local lets get working on lag i do think bots add a lot to this
its a hard job ccp has and i hope they can get on top of it
Signature not EVE Related. - Adida |
FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:49:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Othran
Drone mineral drops are meaningless. Mining bots are meaningless. Loot drops are meaningless.
Why?
They simply recycle the money already in the economy - there is no NEW isk being produced. Get a nice loot drop - you still have to sell it. Mine a million miles of veld - still need to sell it or what it builds.
Missions and ratting are the only activities in the game that create brand new CLEAN isk from nothing.
Bot for minerals, build ships, insure ships, explode ships - there, new isk from nothing |
Crazy KSK
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:53:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: Crazy KSK
no one here seems to take the fact seriously that ccp actually earns money form people using bots and would loose money if they would do something against them
because of that I do not think ccp does or will do anything against botting ever
well maybe if 20% of the eve subscribers would quit over the curse of this month and then the impact on income would be significant enough then there would be maybe a change happening
what I am essentially saying is that ccp is nothing more than a bunch of greedy people not more worth than the botters they support not caring about their players more than they need to to keep getting income
ccp has so far not once proven that that is not the case and until they do not prove that eve is not solely there for money making
now is the chance for ccp to prove that they are not just a bunch of greedy people
remove all possibility to fully automate process in eve to make isk
oh it is sure possible if ccp just would want to ^^
You sound like you know what you're talking about. 
Oh it is sure possible eh? Explain how.
well I'm no expert of anything I just know that its possible to make things happen if you just want to and I know what ccp does not want to
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oldmanst4r
Minmatar
oldmanst4r's Corporation
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:58:00 -
[160]
I take issue with just about every solution postulated in this thread so far. Why, because people are simpletons who underestimate the sophistication of bots. It is trivial to modify bots so that their behavior simulates that of a normal player and avoids even showing up on the radar for detection.
This has been proved even in games that have sophisticated and super annoying anti-bot detection schemes (such as Runefail). Any Captchas, Punkbuster like programs, or anything else you put in to stop bots can be worked around easily by the bot creators, while making things much harder on the normal players. This then provides the illusion of mitigating the botting problem, without actually doing anything about it.
The issue is that ISK making in EVE is inherently bottable. The tasks are generally repetitive, simple, and monotonous in nature, requiring little human input apart from a few clicks every now and then. This type of "isk grinding" will always be bottable and is why I can write a mining macro with only a few minutes of work. The only solution to the botting problem is to fundamentally change the way ISK is obtained in EVE, by making ISK generating activities require minimal amounts problem solving and critical thinking that are far beyond the capacity of any mere macro.
Otherwise, you will never beat the botting problem, you will only get engaged in an unwinnable arms race where you are implementing dozens of annoying anti-botting "features" in a futile attempt to reduce the amount of macroers.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.12.14 19:02:00 -
[161]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Bot for minerals, build ships, insure ships, explode ships - there, new isk from nothing
Quite true but utterly trivial in terms of what is going on regarding new isk creation from macro/botter ratters. Its also controllable by CCP - and yeah I know they've never been much use at insurance, was the first rollback in the game (June 2003 IIRC) when CCP bolloxed it up and everyone got rich that weekend.
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.12.14 19:14:00 -
[162]
Having seen this I give up :
Worthy of any "we don't listen" regime
Your choice CCP and seems like you made it.
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lego brick
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Posted - 2010.12.14 19:16:00 -
[163]
well the can of worms is open  reminds me of the war in Iraq. The security minister trying to convince the population Iraq is winning the war, U.S tanks can be seen on the other side of the river......... I can draw a parallel here haha
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Wiki Leaks
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Posted - 2010.12.14 19:37:00 -
[164]
In between helping their own player accounts out, punishing whistle blowers and trying to protect StevieSG from all the negative press she rightfully earns, you cannot expect a GM to give a flying **** about the RMT that makes CCP so much money. |
Wiki Leaks
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Posted - 2010.12.14 19:40:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
I am sure the CSM will have substantive questions to ask regarding RMT and botting at the summit this week, and we look forward to informative answers that reflect the intense interest of the players in this topic.
You really are CSM material aren't you?
That's an insult by the way. A bloody low blow as well. No you're not expected to understand.
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Marchocias
Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2010.12.14 20:07:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Crazy KSK
well I'm no expert of anything I just know that its possible to make things happen if you just want to and I know what ccp does not want to
I just want to fly, without mechanical aid.
Obviously this is possible. 
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I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it). |
Inanna NiKunni
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Posted - 2010.12.14 20:24:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Lykouleon
Edited by: Lykouleon on 13/12/2010 18:49:10
This was... disappointing. No substantive content, no graphs...
Really, give us some numbers. Give us a graph of "this is how many people we've banned hammered since 2008" or "Price of PLEX in ISK in relation to price of PLEX in USD visible on RMT sites since Unholy Rage began."
As well, GM Grimmi has completely missed the major complaint of the community at the moment. The problem isn't RMT and the people using it, its botters who then take their ISK and plug it into their alliance and their supercap fleets. I could honestly care less about RMT since I don't take any part in it. But I do enjoy PVP and have seen what the proliferation of supercaps recently has done to the dynamic of 0.0 and lowsec warfare. The ability to drop +25 supercaps onto a field and ****-train anything under the size of a massive counter-blob is terribad. Of course, their are a good percentage of players that've dug into the game and invested a good deal of time and effort into getting their magnificent e-peens of **** and destruction, but with over 400 titans currently operating and the fact that SC losses have turned from universe-shattering events into farts in the breeze means something is not going according to plan
Also, please CCP, don't let GMs do blogs on stuff like this...make it at least something from the Senior GMs or a developer currently working on solutions...we need substance; we aren't the WoW community 
Basically THIS !!!
who gives a darn about some ruski or chinese guy making a few bucks - isk botting breaks the game - by allowing some alliances/corps to PVP with unlimited isk - while most of us have to grind for isk like mofos.
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Miklas Laces
No Second Prize
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Posted - 2010.12.14 20:42:00 -
[168]
This dev blog is a nice collection of lies.
CCP you used to be good, now you are just a bunch of m-o-r-o-n-s milking money from what is left of what was once a great game.
nooblets 
________________________________________________
CCP Claw > Sokata has been destroyed for boundary violation
Drug Kito > Sokata you'll always be remembered as a noob in history of alliance tourname |
Inanna NiKunni
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Posted - 2010.12.14 21:00:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Cato X
Last month I took my Stealth Bomber out to dronelands and anchored a couple of containers with supplies. I lived out there for a few weeks. Within a couple of hours I identified dozens of macro botters and even caught a few ravens with bubbles as they mechanically warped back to the POS. I went back an hour later and podded them--they where still sitting where my bubble was. I petitioned a half a dozen accounts with proof like this and added them to my watch list. To this day these toons are still logged on 23 hours a day grinding away isk for their master. When they log off, they all log off at once, and log back on at once--even though they are spread across many systems.
CCP would have been better off not posting this blog, because it just confirms what we had feared and are now upset aboutout--that this is all BAU and nothing serious being done to address botting.
Your not going to change the fact that black markets will always exist everywhere, so change what you can control--the client and the server software to make it difficult to bot. It's work but its not all that hard:
1. Make slight changes to memory assignments or variables names once a month that break bot applications. This will force Bot programmers costs up and force them to reverse engineer the client once on a month. It will also break the bot enough to turn off bot users.
2. Create a tool that profiles botting behavior/ Look for time online, repetitive commands, high NPC kill systems with low population, ect...
3. Create a tool that takes the suspicious toons from #2 above, and dumps information from the client that reveals if the client has been modified by a bot program--there is your proof.
4. Create a "cosmic disturbance" around asteroid fields, anomolies, and grav sites where, upon landing, the ship is scrammed and webbed until a piece of information is entered that is graphically displayed.--easy meat for anyone looking for a kill.
5. Hold corporations and alliances accountable for their members botting with heavy ISK fines. Fine the Alliance and the Corp 5 times the estimated one month ISK proceeds from the bot.
There is no silver bullet, but by appearances the problem is being completely ignored. Do something--please.
Those are all good ideas - excellent Post
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Daneel Trevize
Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2010.12.14 21:48:00 -
[170]
Othran, you're right and thanks for eliminating that issue.
So, why not just put a cap on how much isk each character can make from bounties & npc buy orders in a given time?
You can still trade, nick stuff, etc, just can't farm endlessly from the isk faucets. And CCP tell us if there's an isk amount/range that no usual player would reasonably reach that should also be low enough to massively cut into the value of having to run several characters to work around the limit. |
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Dynaverse Corporation
Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.12.14 22:16:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Wiki Leaks
In between helping their own player accounts out, punishing whistle blowers and trying to protect StevieSG from all the negative press she rightfully earns, you cannot expect a GM to give a flying **** about the RMT that makes CCP so much money.
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If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Siramar Thi
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Posted - 2010.12.14 22:35:00 -
[172]
Remind me why RMT's r bad if it means more accounts and moneys for ccp?
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.12.14 22:37:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Siramar Thi
Remind me why RMT's r bad if it means more accounts and moneys for ccp?
1/10
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Lofe sXe
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.12.14 22:41:00 -
[174]
one of the worst CCP damage control ever
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Miklas Laces
No Second Prize
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Posted - 2010.12.14 23:02:00 -
[175]
the poster above me is a noob
________________________________________________
CCP Claw > Sokata has been destroyed for boundary violation
Drug Kito > Sokata you'll always be remembered as a noob in history of alliance tourname |
Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.14 23:48:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Shurikane
Originally by: ArchenTheGreat
If you do this for 23/7 than you are botting. And if not than you need a ****ing life and CCP will do you a favor by banning you anyway.
Okay. Okay. I do a full-day marathon of ratting, so I'm a bot. Yep.
Firstly, even a one or even two day marathon is going to be broken up by your basic biological needs unless you have a laptop and you're exceptionally good at killing rats while wiping your own ass.
Secondly, obviously a full day isn't enough for certainty. This is why you do background checks. You check transaction history. You check chat activity in various channels. If you can rat all day every day only sending money to some other player whilst never talking to anybody in alliance corp or local? You're either a bot, or you're clinically insane. In either event, I'm not sure I want you in my sandbox.
|Bounty Fix|Mining Makeover| |
gfldex
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Posted - 2010.12.15 00:46:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Lubomir Penev
PLEXes provide way for RMTers to have accounts not tied to RL identity, and PLEXes provide incentives for Joe Schmoe to bot in order to "play for free" (people can't read an electrical bill).
Suppress plexes. Ban BUYERS...
You got a good point there mate. Sadly you don't provide reason for CCP to change their policy. I might be able to help here.
The real problem is the combination of red wallets and selling PLEXes. If you get your nice RMTed ISKed removed by a GM you have placed a bet and lost. That bet is that you have to pay less for your ISK then somebody who went with PLEXes right away. So if you get cought, _and_only_then_ you have to pay that little premium that is on PLEXes to do it legit. There is in fact no reason to avoid RMTers as you can all the time fix your red wallet with a few PLEXes if you get cought. Not much of a problem for somebody who bought his way into the game in the first place.
On top of that the current practice is putting corps at risk. You can't really accept ISK donations if you can't see where the money came from. If you do, you place a bet, even if you have no intention to do so.
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SyntaxPD
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Posted - 2010.12.15 00:50:00 -
[178]
Edited by: SyntaxPD on 15/12/2010 00:53:15
1. Ban bots. Every banned bot brings you another 15$ when it's holder will go for new account.
2. What is your GMs salary? How many bots can be clearly indentified by one man in a standard 8 hours work day, let's say it's about 6. One man will bring you roughly 15*6*22 = 1980$ per month. Average salary in Russia is not much higher 500$.
3. Ban bot chains and their isk holding accounts, this will not stop them, but they will go for more bots - more GTC sold, ban isk holder a bit harder but it will have stronger impact.
4. Ban ban ban. Make them subscribe more times and even if they still make isk of botting, they will not have heavy impact on eve economy.
5. How much time needed to train skills for one bot? If bans will follow each other it's a sort of headache for any botter.
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Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.12.15 01:04:00 -
[179]
The Pink Bunny Test is the last, best hope for banning macros, here is how it works:
1) Allow GMs to turn off mining modules (and only mining modules)
2) Allow GMs to minimize all active windows.
3) Allow GMs to spawn a Pink Bunny over the module buttons.
4) Allow GMs to open a chat box irrespective of client restrictions directly above the modules
5) If the player reactivates their modules then bot, otherwise enjoy the funny conversation which will follow.
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I used to be a nice guy, but the utter lack of common sense on these forums has turned me into a prick. NO YOU DON'T GET A FREE REMAP!!! Nothing changed for yo |
Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.12.15 07:28:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
The Pink Bunny Test is the last, best hope for banning macros, here is how it works:
1) Allow GMs to turn off mining modules (and only mining modules)
2) Allow GMs to minimize all active windows.
3) Allow GMs to spawn a Pink Bunny over the module buttons.
4) Allow GMs to open a chat box irrespective of client restrictions directly above the modules
5) If the player reactivates their modules then bot, otherwise enjoy the funny conversation which will follow.
no way a programmer could teach his bot to react to this test by telling the GM a random variation on "f*** off" or "no english".
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