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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:24:00 -
[31]
A morale blog? I thought they died with ASCN.
I am disappoint.
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:30:00 -
[32]
As others have said, the CSM will be discussing this issue with CCP at the summit in a couple of days.
Also please note that not all botting is RMT and not all RMT is botting. There is a connection in some cases, but just banning people for RMT doesn't stop other people botting for isk to fund other things in game.
Coming up with ways to reliably detect botting behaviour in addition to the work against all forms of RMT is the only sensible course of action. Also CCP should look at lowering PLEX prices instead of attempting to find new ways to get players to spend them (which would put pressure on supply and drive up prices further, leaving more profit margin for RMT).
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Myz Toyou
APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:31:00 -
[33]
This blog is weaksauce CCP
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Latrodanes
Independent Combat Support Services
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:34:00 -
[34]
This article was not a Devblog. It was a puff piece. Where's the beef? Heck, I was absolutely stunned by the Eve News 24 reporting and based on this article, it appears CCP apparently remains clueless.
Maybe the CSM can get them to understand RMT trading on such a vast scale undermines confidence in the entire game economy. <fingers crossed> ----------
http://latrosbunker.blogspot.com |
Max Kolonko
Caldari Worm Nation Ash Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:36:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Max Kolonko
Actually, I dont like idea of delayed local. And i'm not botting neither. It is simply something that is unique to W-space, and doing something like that in K-space is breaking the uniqueness of W-space.
I think w-space uniqueness is assured by wormhole only access and sleepers.
Instant local provides magically effortless intel, limits play strategies, and allows complete safety to bots.
You are right in that, but still, my opinion stands, that delayed local is part off W-space "all alone in a void" theme.
And i have to agree with IPod
Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Max Kolonko
Actually, I dont like idea of delayed local. And i'm not botting neither. It is simply something that is unique to W-space, and doing something like that in K-space is breaking the uniqueness of W-space.
I think w-space uniqueness is assured by wormhole only access and sleepers.
Instant local provides magically effortless intel, limits play strategies, and allows complete safety to bots.
Yes, w-space is awesome for corporations that "automate" matters (actively and in the background), sharing software and forums and all these things. But let's be honest, w-space has definite attraction, but it is macro heaven for resources. Maybe if the population density were higher, but it is not designed to support that, and yeah well, it is heading the same way as Faction Warfare.
W-space provide great opportunities for botters - especially regarding PI. But still i like the concept of W-space, im living in W-space, and would like for CCP to fight problem rather than looking for work-arounds like delaying local in 0.0, the botters will just move to auto courier missions and mission running in empire or low sec. Max Kolonko |
Netacq
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:40:00 -
[36]
Originally by: CCP Fallout In his new dev blog, GM Grimmi discusses the ongoing efforts of Unholy Rage and the continued work towards removing macroers from the game and how we continue to work against real money transfers (RMT).
I'm missing the DevBlog - I found a "management presentation" which says nothing...
Originally by: Mashie Saldana Have you considered implementing something like Punkbuster to stop python injections used by more and more bots?
... Do something here!
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mkmin
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:46:00 -
[37]
When I read an informational article, I always try to get a picture of what I read in my head. I make a list of key points. This blog had only one major key point and it was only implied. The message: "When you bot for RMT, do it to buy PLEX." In the long discussion between players and CCP about bots, that is the message CCP has always put out there. This is a message as game breaking as massive lag.
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Lykouleon
Trust Doesn't Rust
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:48:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Lykouleon on 13/12/2010 18:49:10 This was... disappointing. No substantive content, no graphs...
Really, give us some numbers. Give us a graph of "this is how many people we've banned hammered since 2008" or "Price of PLEX in ISK in relation to price of PLEX in USD visible on RMT sites since Unholy Rage began."
As well, GM Grimmi has completely missed the major complaint of the community at the moment. The problem isn't RMT and the people using it, its botters who then take their ISK and plug it into their alliance and their supercap fleets. I could honestly care less about RMT since I don't take any part in it. But I do enjoy PVP and have seen what the proliferation of supercaps recently has done to the dynamic of 0.0 and lowsec warfare. The ability to drop +25 supercaps onto a field and ****-train anything under the size of a massive counter-blob is terribad. Of course, their are a good percentage of players that've dug into the game and invested a good deal of time and effort into getting their magnificent e-peens of **** and destruction, but with over 400 titans currently operating and the fact that SC losses have turned from universe-shattering events into farts in the breeze means something is not going according to plan
Also, please CCP, don't let GMs do blogs on stuff like this...make it at least something from the Senior GMs or a developer currently working on solutions...we need substance; we aren't the WoW community
Quote: ImRedYoureDead > carebearing is when you make the other person's ship explode, right? ImRedYoureDead > I think they're officers or something ImRedYoureDead > they got names, they got to die |
Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr Amarrian Veterans Guild
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:48:00 -
[39]
Erh? that was a Dev Blog?
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Firesh
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:54:00 -
[40]
Unholy Rage, my goodness - this sounds more like "Unholy Whimper"...
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Enarem Kador
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:58:00 -
[41]
What a way to throw a bone...
CCP is treating their subscribers like dogs. What is new?
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MechaMouse
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:00:00 -
[42]
Glad to see CCP reads the news sites for EVE. Keep up the good...adequate for now... work.
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Salpad
Caldari Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:02:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Smoke Adian In light of the recent EVE News articles, this dev blog is pretty meh. Team "We're Mildly Annoyed" is basically as effective as Pakistan against the Taliban.
A very apt analogy, given that many of the Pakistanis, including som in the intelligence services and other government branches, and probably also the military, sympathize with the Taleban.
-- Salpad |
Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:03:00 -
[44]
Your lack of rage is disturbing. ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation. |
CapnKellTainer
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:04:00 -
[45]
The blog is weak. On the other hand, CCP needed to get something out there to prove that they are, in fact, listening. They probably don't know what to do about it, to be honest.
The problem as I see it is as follows:
1) EVE has a relatively small subscriber base, providing CCP with a relatively restricted cash flow. 2) Resources, as with all things in this world of ours, are finite. 3) PLEX can only be used for subscriptions and Fanfest tickets; sadly, Fanfest is in Iceland and it's cold and expensive with relatively limited facilities, so not that many people use PLEX to go to Fanfest. 4) The overall market for subscriptions is relatively limited. 5) Keeping all these things in mind, the supply of PLEX is relatively low (though increasing lately), but the demand for ISK is very high.
There are a few general ideas for how to ameliorate the problem with relatively little pain. It will never go away as long as this game remains even slightly healthy, but you can make it better. 1) Lower GTC prices, increasing the competitiveness of PLEX with purchased ISK. 2) Run a statistical analysis at downtime (or after; whenever) to identify characters that are exceeding reasonable human limitations on gameplay. If Dotlan can get halfway there, I'm confident you have the logs to get the rest of the way there. 3) Offer for a fee a Blizzard-style authenticator. People with the billions of ISK that render them juicy targets for hacks would probably pay a $5-$10 premium to safeguard their assets and ability to play. 4) Look into the feasibility of implementing a Punkbuster solution to prevent external applications from reading and modifying game code.
Each of these, however, has an opportunity cost. 1) would definitely make it less profitable to enter the RMT trade, but it would also drive PLEX prices down, as more people would choose to purchase GTCs and expand a supply that according to the QEN is already well above where it should be. I'll grant that then more people would choose to fund their accounts that way, eventually driving prices back up and expanding the overall subscriber pool. However, there's still an immediate loss of $5 on every transaction. 2) requires that you have Dr. Eyjo or a cheap American college grad with statistics experience expend labor on a task - meaning that you'll have to pay whoever you get to do it. 3) requires some initial capital, although I imagine if they go with the $10 price point it will become a minor revenue stream. 4) requires licensing costs, or requires the expenditure of man-hours to do the programming in-house.
The question is, are any of the proposed solutions worth it? With a subscriber base that doesn't even crack a million, and given that there are already a lot of expenses associated with the game, it's hard to justify additional expenditures, especially as CCP is allocating resources toward the Vampire: the Masquerade MMO (Insert joke about sparkly Twilight vampires and/or teenaged girls here).
The only way to get these changes to occur is to prove to CCP that they can make more money, or lose less money, by implementing them. That requires either statistical evidence of increased income, evidence that subscriber numbers will drop without the implementation of these or other measures, or both.
TL;DR: So, I say, get to work, folks. Draw up those charts. Crunch those numbers. Talk to your CSMs. Talk to each other. Talk to CCP. If you want something done, you need to go beyond the usual grumbling and make this a real conversation.
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Salpad
Caldari Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:06:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Evelgrivion Bots read directly from the client's memory. Adding such a delay only makes it more difficult for legitimate users to fight back against the RMT menace.
If so, the obvious solution is for the server to generate fictitious player character at random, entering various systems in 0.0 (and low-sec too, if necessary). That'd make the bots paranoid!
-- Salpad |
Jay Wareth
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:21:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Smoke Adian In light of the recent EVE News articles, this dev blog is pretty meh. Team "We're Mildly Annoyed" is basically as effective as Pakistan against the Taliban.
A very apt analogy, given that many of the Pakistanis, including som in the intelligence services and other government branches, and probably also the military, sympathize with the Taleban.
Indeed. I want to believe that CCP doesn't allow RMT to pad their balance sheets, but "devblogs" like this one aren't helping.
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Othran
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:37:00 -
[48]
I don't care about RMT. There I said it. RMT impacts CCPs profits and its their problem.
The incessant macro ratting however subjects every single honest player to a situation where they are worth LESS if they do nothing in game for 5 minutes. Every minute you don't earn, you are worth less. Remember that bounties are NEW isk, mined ore/ice isn't. Its a bit like printing money - people in UK/US ought to get that.
As the blog is basically meaningless PR nonsense I think we'll need to see if we can get enough support to remove 0.0 bounties. It'll need a little tweaking but if we can come up with something that reduces the NEW isk entering the game from premeditated cheating then perhaps thats the only way to go.
In response to the blog - way to go, that'll really discourage people
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Zanes Shoubje
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:38:00 -
[49]
So I suppose Im the only one that thinks there might be some difficulty in actually proving someone is using a bot or is RMT-ing. I wonder what kind of **** storm would start up if CCP would start banning people they just suspect of wrongdoing.
Im not saying enough, not enough or more than enough is being done about this problem. Just that it might not be as simple as throwing the ban hammer at anyone that is reported.
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Assaj Ventress
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:40:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Assaj Ventress on 13/12/2010 19:42:34 Zero information in dev blog, but the message is clear - if you can't grind like botters 23/7, buy plexes only from us =)
Originally by: Othran I don't care about RMT. There I said it. RMT impacts CCPs profits and its their problem.
The incessant macro ratting however subjects every single honest player to a situation where they are worth LESS if they do nothing in game for 5 minutes. ... In response to the blog - way to go, that'll really discourage people
so true
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Simon TraderOne
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:48:00 -
[51]
The issue here is probably manpower...
You could hire a team of 20+ people, and those people sole job would be to go talk to players playing more than 10 hours a day doing the same thing, and asking them human answerable questions.
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Casiella Truza
Ghost Festival Naraka.
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:50:00 -
[52]
Not what I wanted to hear. "Yeah, guys, if you'd just stop buying ISK, this wouldn't be a problem!"
We know. We're the honest ones. (At least in the EVE sense. ) You don't have to convince US.
But we're not convinced you get it. First, macros present a real problem. It's a source, and any of us who work IRL with fraud and intrusion detection can come up with half a dozen ways to start detecting the cheaters. I've no doubt that SMEs looking at the security of the client could do so in their domain as well.
Second, please understand that macros and RMT, while related, are not identical. Somebody running a macro / bot is cheating and that makes the rest of us feel like our gameplay is wasted.
I have every confidence that the CSM will continue to press this issue with CCP.
--
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SargeantNekkid DDS
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Posted - 2010.12.13 20:07:00 -
[53]
Dear CCP,
There's a REALLY EASY way to make sure, without a doubt, that EVERYONE knows that RMT will get you banned.
On the log-in screen, in big, red, capital letters, leave burned in forevermore the following text:
"BUYING ISK OR ITEMS FROM PEOPLE ONLINE WILL GET YOU BANNED. THE ONLY WAY TO LEGITIMATELY GET ISK FOR MONEY IS WITH A PLEX" <---and then linky the word PLEX to a PLEX article.
Put it right next to the password field. Hell, put it in between the username and password fields just to make sure.
Regards, The EVE community.
TL:DR - CCP is either a bunch of lazy couchpotatoes with no sense of imagination or is lying.
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Archestratidas
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Posted - 2010.12.13 20:09:00 -
[54]
>>>ISK is sold because people buy it.
lol, true, but why do people buy it? Because making ISK in-game is miserable and unfun and the typical person doesn't want to waste their free time on activities that just aren't fun. Blame your game design, not the "players" for buying it, kthx.
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Terry Teo
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Posted - 2010.12.13 20:22:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Terry Teo on 13/12/2010 20:23:29 That was anticlimactic. The Dev Blog I wanted would have said: 1 - If you're in any doubt please be aware that bots are forbidden by the EULA. 2 - Very sorry if you're using them, we're going to do everything we can to the client to stop bots from automating its functions.
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Geanos
Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2010.12.13 20:30:00 -
[56]
This is probably the lamest devblog concerning a serious problem ever.
For a game you advertise as being harsh and cold, where anybody can backstab or cheat other people, where whole alliances can be put down by a single man, you expect people to be honest and buy GTC's for ISK? I doubt there are so many role players out there . It's easier to say "better in my pocket than in CCP's account" you know.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.12.13 20:31:00 -
[57]
Fail blog is fail.
"We're totally doing stuff even though the game is infested with macros everywhere you look, plus it's all your fault for buying ISK anyway. To prove it to you, here are no facts whatsoever"
D minus *MUST TRY HARDER*
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.12.13 20:35:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Archestratidas Edited by: Archestratidas on 13/12/2010 20:21:49 >>>ISK is sold because people buy it.
lol, true, but why do people buy it? Because making ISK in-game is miserable and unfun and the typical person doesn't want to waste their free time on activities that just aren't fun. Blame your game design, not the "players" for buying it, kthx.
THIS.
MAKE ISK MAKING FUN, NOT A PUNISHMENT.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
ArchenTheGreat
Caldari Nomads of Zen
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Posted - 2010.12.13 20:37:00 -
[59]
You call it a blog? Learn to write from your programmers!
I always said PLEX is encouragement for cheating. If you want ISK go and play for it.
What CCP should do: - remove PLEX - add punkbuster style protections (it will never be bulletproof but it will help) - make ISK-generating activities require brain - allow players to fight bots (remove NPC corps, remove local in 0.0)
The last two are the most effective solutions.
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Virtuozzo
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.12.13 20:37:00 -
[60]
Zero feedback. Shame
Well, reception of this devblog is pretty universal in its reception everywhere it seems. That is significant.
@GM Grimmi. Don't misunderstand me, I fully appreciate the effort that went into the devblog, and the aim towards communications. But this, is, well, just a complete miss. Not by intention, obviously, but for method and aim and result.
Look, Unholy Rage was not just awesome for action, but it had a tangible result. Since that time, things have changed. You don't have the luxury of staying on the outside looking in, I'm sorry. Doing that results into a perception of mere lip service. In spite of shared goals.
EVE always evolves. Think of the old challenge of "adapt or ...". That is what customers do (if they are smart, and if they are lazy, and if they because of life do not have the time that game design imposes as demand), that s what EVE as a whole does. And unfortunately this is also what RMT does. I have no doubt that since Unholy Rage there has been a continued war against RMT, especially because of the initial battles following Unholy Rage with the account hackings and spamming. But while the volume of work in dealing with what RMT used to be has undoubtedly not decreased ... RMT itself has changed.
You know this. You have had petitions on this, and not just the typical "reports". It has been published in community sites. It has been and will undoubtedly once again be in the mainstream media. It's in the blogosphere, on Facebook and on Twitter. What was once the default RMT, still exists but is merely symptomatic while the disease itself has changed and moved on.
There is a requirement for a fundamental shift in managing perspectives for methodology. It will be worth listening to the CSM this upcoming visit. Not just for feedback "general", or milking their brains, but also for hands on solutions in methodology and expectation management offered.
Same goes for investing in tools and instruments. It does not have to be a victim of resource allocation challenges. Remember, it is a battle, but one step at a time.
Good luck. But please, no more of this "lolmarketing" Players across the board want to make stuff work, just as CCP does.
As for the botting. There is no way to address that without combining divisions and departments and objectives and methods. This is not just metrics. Fundamental parts of it reside in game design. Both for the infamous mmorpg subscriber addiction curve (which has multiple cycles and points of entry) as well as for mechanics, features and all of that. These last three years, have had plenty issues in these regards. It is not a singular challenge, this is multi disciplinary.
So, once again, good luck.
≡v≡ once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business. Now all that's left, serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna. |
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