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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2010.12.16 05:22:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Jason1138
"From what I remember it will take several years of constant training before the amount of SP you've "lost" due to this change catches up with the amount of SP reimbursement you just received. In short, you won't actually experience this "loss in training time" until 2017 (or whatever it is).
Deal with it."
i was 23 mil SP yesterday, i'm 23 mil today. I didn't "recieve" any SP. SP i had was moved to something else. I have no idea why this is so hard for some people to wrap their heads around
did your mom drop you on your head as a child?
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Lilla Kharn
Amarr
B4D W0LF
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.12.16 05:28:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Malcanis
If it's any comfort I'm now training 10 SP/hour faster.
:smug:
:smug:
:smug:
:smug:
:smug:
:smug:
That's it? I got three remaps on my accounts not sure how I did it but I'm training 600 sp/h faster.
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"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
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Snowmann
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Posted - 2010.12.16 05:31:00 -
[63]
I'm actually training a bit faster just to let you know.
I did the math way back when, then did a bit of logical reasoning, and realized that it wasn't really worth it to max out all your learning skills. Not really.
Sometimes you need to think beyond the pure numbers. Another nice aspect about this game. 
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Lilla Kharn
Amarr
B4D W0LF
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.12.16 05:33:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Snowmann
I'm actually training a bit faster just to let you know.
I did the math way back when, then did a bit of logical reasoning, and realized that it wasn't really worth it to max out all your learning skills. Not really.
Sometimes you need to think beyond the pure numbers. Another nice aspect about this game.
Iirc it takes 3 years 6 months to make back the time if you train all learning to V.
=============================================
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.12.16 05:35:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Lilla Kharn
Originally by: Snowmann
I'm actually training a bit faster just to let you know.
I did the math way back when, then did a bit of logical reasoning, and realized that it wasn't really worth it to max out all your learning skills. Not really.
Sometimes you need to think beyond the pure numbers. Another nice aspect about this game.
This was always clear to me ... and the notion of "time value of money" applies to the skills too... a skill today is worth a little more than a skill tomorrow..
Iirc it takes 3 years 6 months to make back the time if you train all learning to V.
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Snowmann
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Posted - 2010.12.16 05:42:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Snowmann on 16/12/2010 05:42:49
Originally by: Lilla Kharn
Iirc it takes 3 years 6 months to make back the time if you train all learning to V.
Equals not worth it in my book.
I'm planning to stop training my main pvp char in less than double that time.
Med clone considerations outweigh any benifit of further training atm.
I've already stopped training my main PVE alt.
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Khalia Nestune
Honorless Internet Jerks
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Posted - 2010.12.16 05:49:00 -
[67]
The SP in learning was fundamentally useless. It did nothing for your character, except increase the rate at which you trained.
So you maxed out learning skills? You had 5.376M (or whatever) useless skill points. Skill points NOT helping you PvE better, PvP better, trade better, build things better, etc.
So now CCP gave you all of it back. You just won 5.376M new SP. Why new? Because the SP in learning weren't worth sh*t.
And so you ***** about losing 72sp/hour? As everyone with more than one brain cell has pointed out, if you apply the now useful skill points to what you would have trained at 72sp/hour higher, you won't actually see a loss in useful skill points for 8 years.
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Rocky Deadshot
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Posted - 2010.12.16 06:31:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Jason1138
i was 23 mil SP yesterday, i'm 23 mil today. I didn't "recieve" any SP. SP i had was moved to something else. I have no idea why this is so hard for some people to wrap their heads around
Obviously, if CCP wants to give me a few mil SP and then slow my training time down, I will say nothing about it. No one just got given any SP though
See, its like this. you work for a bank, making $500 a week. You deposit your first 2 checks in the bank. A month later, your boss cuts your pay to $400 a week, and gives you your thousand dollars back and closes that account. Some moron on the bank forum then says "well it will be 10 weeks before the amount of money they just cut your pay by totals up to what your boss just gave you, so why don't you shut up about it until then"
but your boss didn't give you anything. He returned what was already yours, and took something from you. Do you understand that now?
Your obviously trolling cause i would hope no one is this stupid but let me spell it out for you on how your in the best position out of anyone in eve right now.
2days ago the max amount of skill points anyone could have (ignoring training time problems and stuff) was X... now its X- ~6mil
if math has taught me anything is that if you think of your account in terms of % of skills learned in the game than if u hold your number of skill points constant but lower the total number than you go up in %.
Anyone that actually trained all those boring skills to 5 now has a crap ton of skill points to move around...
but waa waa sounds like u wasted them, thats your freaking fault.
If u take into consideration someone that started at the same time has you, you are now way far ahead of them in terms of "usefull" skills.
So quite QQing about waaa i wasted my time training to lvl 5, now my extra sp/hr is lower and i spent my points CCP gave me on stupid useless skills... like corp management.
after all, who would want to be in a corp with your whiny ass
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.12.16 06:33:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 16/12/2010 06:33:39
error
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2010.12.16 06:58:00 -
[70]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 16/12/2010 07:00:12
Originally by: Lilla Kharn
Originally by: Snowmann
I'm actually training a bit faster just to let you know.
I did the math way back when, then did a bit of logical reasoning, and realized that it wasn't really worth it to max out all your learning skills. Not really.
Sometimes you need to think beyond the pure numbers. Another nice aspect about this game.
Iirc it takes 3 years 6 months to make back the time if you train all learning to V.
not true, this doesn't take in account double training time. and double implant, and double effective learning skills bonuses that are now gone.
it's in fact a lot sooner because of those changes.
I did the math in a huge post a year ago, it boils down to the payoff if you train all learning to 5, 2 years to pay off.
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Jii Tral
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Posted - 2010.12.16 07:26:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Jii Tral on 16/12/2010 07:28:12
The five million or so SP Refund people would have gotten if they maxed all the learning skills is the same amount of skill points that would have gone into other skills if they didn't have to train learning skills in the first place.
Now listen closely children. Listen real good.
The people who trained it all to lvl 5 had to do it at a SLOWER SP/hr rate than we have now. Meaning they put far more time they would have into that 5 million skill points than they would now with the new base attribute points.
It's not really a gift at all and punishes people who had trained everything to five in learning.
However people like Jason1138 actually DO have a reason to complain because it was explained here in this devblog
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=824
that training speeds aren't going to be slowed down at ALL.
Here's a quote from the devblog.
Quote:
WHY DIDN'T YOU SETTLE ON A LOWER ATTRIBUTE COUNT/TRAINING SPEED? We didn't want anyone to come out of this change with a lower average training speed than they currently have (or at least, not by any noticeable amount). We also didn't want to punish people for making sensible, long-term decisions in the past based on the best information available to them at the time, because this would be terrible design practice.
So really this is a good thing to bring to their attention because it's not working out at all as intended.
EDIT: And to makes things clear I didn't bother training everything to level five. I went Basic Learning 4, Learning skill 4 and the advanced ones to 3
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Jennifer Starling
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.12.16 08:13:00 -
[72]
Hey!
I'm also training at a lower speed now!! 
Anyway:
* I did get 3.2 million SP that I can use for actual useful in-game skills;
* Before I reach the point that the skillspeed is going to hurt I'm probably not playing EVE anymore;
* 1 extra remap means I can train all charisma skills I want at max speed!! So that's another extra sp/hour bonus;
* I'm still happy for all the new players who don't have to endure the drag;
Best Xmas present ever!!
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Space Pinata
Amarr
Discount Napkin Industries
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Posted - 2010.12.16 10:35:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Jii Tral
Edited by: Jii Tral on 16/12/2010 07:28:12
The five million or so SP Refund people would have gotten if they maxed all the learning skills is the same amount of skill points that would have gone into other skills if they didn't have to train learning skills in the first place.
Now listen closely children. Listen real good.
The people who trained it all to lvl 5 had to do it at a SLOWER SP/hr rate than we have now. Meaning they put far more time they would have into that 5 million skill points than they would now with the new base attribute points.
It's not really a gift at all and punishes people who had trained everything to five in learning.
No, it doesn't. You might say "it rewards people who DIDN'T train everything to five", but it does not PUNISH anyone.
The people who trained every learning skill to 5 are substantially better off today than they were yesterday. By five million SP.
A year from now, they'll be better off than they would have been a year from now.
A year after that, still better off than they would have been had the change never happened.
And so on. And so forth.
Until about 2020. Assuming EVE is still a thing and people still play and the entire system hasn't been redesigned again by then, they will finally be marginally behind where they would have been before skills were removed.
In 20. ****ing. 20.
So, tell me how they got nerfed, exactly? The only way they got nerfed is that they made a stupid choice in the past, and CCP didn't give then any extra-bonus over anyone else. I only got 600k SP today, not 5 million.
And don't try to say learnings to 5 werent always stupid.  By the time they pay off your character is so old that you don't have anything you care about training anyway. Carrier V or something, maybe? By that point its a chore to find something worth training next..
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tla s'hpyt
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Posted - 2010.12.16 11:06:00 -
[74]
So I spent a few months training SP and now I'm being told that SP was apperantly free.....
And people try to say eve players are smarter than average?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.12.16 11:23:00 -
[75]
Originally by: tla s'hpyt
So I spent a few months training SP and now I'm being told that SP was apperantly free.....
And people try to say eve players are smarter than average?
In how many other MMOs do you get players stating the minerals they mine themselves are free?
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Space Pinata
Amarr
Discount Napkin Industries
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Posted - 2010.12.16 11:24:00 -
[76]
Originally by: tla s'hpyt
So I spent a few months training SP and now I'm being told that SP was apperantly free.....
And people try to say eve players are smarter than average?
I know right I spent 5000$ on a car and then someone gave me 5000$ back and upgraded my car to a sports car.
But I know I paid for the sports car. Even though I have all my money still. |
Shemmy
7th Space Cavalry
Freemason Core
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Posted - 2010.12.16 11:34:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Shemmy on 16/12/2010 11:37:51
Ignoring the children comment ...
Originally by: Jii Tral
The people who trained it all to lvl 5 had to do it at a SLOWER SP/hr rate than we have now. Meaning they put far more time they would have into that 5 million skill points than they would now with the new base attribute points.
It's not really a gift at all and punishes people who had trained everything to five in learning.
Firstly, you never 'had' to train learning skills, it was a choice. You certainly never 'had' to train them to level 5.
Regardless of this, if you did train to 5, you were subsequently training more skillpoints an hour than the people who didn't, and stole a march on those people who joined at the same time as you and chose only level 4. Therefore in your utopian cloud cuckoo land where total skillpoints means everything, you were ahead of them. Guess what, now we all train at the same speed, and you're still ahead of them, due to your genius choices. It's not like you'll lose out on anything.
Originally by: Jii Tral
However people like Jason1138 actually DO have a reason to complain because it was explained here in this devblog
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=824
that training speeds aren't going to be slowed down at ALL.
Here's a quote from the devblog.
Quote:
WHY DIDN'T YOU SETTLE ON A LOWER ATTRIBUTE COUNT/TRAINING SPEED? We didn't want anyone to come out of this change with a lower average training speed than they currently have (or at least, not by any noticeable amount). We also didn't want to punish people for making sensible, long-term decisions in the past based on the best information available to them at the time, because this would be terrible design practice.
So really this is a good thing to bring to their attention because it's not working out at all as intended.
In this bit I bolded and underlined are the contradiction in your quote. And in my view, speaking as someone with comfortably over 100m skillpoints and 5m learning SP's to re-invest, 72 SP an hour, or whatever it is, will not be a noticeable amount.
Originally by: "zenst"
and for those going yeah but the free sp you can allocate, please define free when you think about it and if you still not seeing it contact me about buying your own house of me, I'll do you a great deal.
False argument. The comparison should be "We're compulsory purchasing your house, you can have a new one 5 streets away, the only difference is instead of the study on the front of your house you had before, you can now choose either a swimming pool, a conservatory, or a sauna out the back. Oh and the garden is 1ft shorter."
Don't build false equivalences and criticise them.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.16 11:36:00 -
[78]
I think CCP should have the option for players (mandatory for OP though) to have all your SP doubled and put in a new skill, which is completely useless. That includes all your current trained skills. So if you now have 50M SP, then you have 100M SP, but all of it in a new useless skill.
Maybe that will show the OP the difference in what the little number shows and actual effective ammount of SP.
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thatbloke
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.16 11:37:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Jason1138
i went from 32.9 perception with 10% from Learning and +5's to 32.0. Kind of annoying
I realize its not the end of the world but it would be nice if CCP had listened to the CSM and not penalized us during this change over process
boo. frickin. hoo.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
I think we'd be better off with a troll shard.
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My Postman
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Posted - 2010.12.16 11:39:00 -
[80]
OP:
There are the ppl who whined for to years for the removal of learning skills, to speed up their skilling, and now they¦ve won.
There are the ppl who maxed out learning skills, you and me, and now we are nerfed.
You make a thread about it, and now get flamed by those who actually are skilling faster for free, and turn the fact that you and i got a "gift" by ccp, meaning those 5,3m skillpoints we skilled slower when doing them.
Accept the fact that they are the vast majority, but keep in mind that said majority must not be right.
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Shemmy
7th Space Cavalry
Freemason Core
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Posted - 2010.12.16 11:50:00 -
[81]
Oh, god, so many tears over something so tiny. Make it stop.
Never, since the criticism of Mick Jagger's wiener ...
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Snowmann
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Posted - 2010.12.16 12:00:00 -
[82]
I almost wish the Devs just deleted the learning skills without refunding the points, but still increased the base attributes.
Some of these guys must have real issues with intrest truncation on their savings accounts.
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Jenny Hawk
State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.12.16 12:06:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Shemmy
Oh, god, so many tears over something so tiny. Make it stop.
"It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing. Such a little thing."
ùBoromir
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.12.16 12:12:00 -
[84]
Originally by: My Postman
There are the ppl who whined for to years for the removal of learning skills, to speed up their skilling, and now they¦ve won.
Yes. They're called CCP.
Quote:
There are the ppl who maxed out learning skills, you and me, and now we are nerfed.
Everyone who has ever trained anything gets nerfed every now and then. So what?
Quote:
You make a thread about it, and now get flamed by those who actually are skilling faster for free
àand also by those who train a tiiiiiny bit slower, but who still understand the vast benefits from the change.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.16 12:16:00 -
[85]
Originally by: My Postman
OP:
There are the ppl who whined for to years for the removal of learning skills, to speed up their skilling, and now they¦ve won.
There are the ppl who maxed out learning skills, you and me, and now we are nerfed.
You make a thread about it, and now get flamed by those who actually are skilling faster for free, and turn the fact that you and i got a "gift" by ccp, meaning those 5,3m skillpoints we skilled slower when doing them.
Accept the fact that they are the vast majority, but keep in mind that said majority must not be right.
How is receiving over 5M SP possibly a nerf? In that case, @CCP can you please nerf me a few times more? Oh and also please nerf hybrid weapons FFS.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.12.16 12:28:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Whitehound on 16/12/2010 12:30:35
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
ITT: The small childs handfull of players who actually trained every single learning skill to 5 and now train a teensy bit slower even though the sp refund put them waaaaaaaay back in the lead are annoyed.
Good.
better yet:
ITT: maxed learning people discover after several posts saying the same thing over and over again, that they now are learning 72sp/hour slower and throw a tantrum.
I am not throwing a tantrum. I point out the fail.
First do you people want the learning skills removed, because you all want to skill faster, but are not willing to train the necessary learning skills. And now after the change do you mock those who train a little slower.
The game was changed for a bunch of hypocrites.
Now I want to see your faces in the coming times. CCP has got the tool to move all skill points around the way they like. If they change the game for hypocrites then we get to see some very awesome nerfs. I hope you can enjoy all of them as much as you enjoyed the removal of the learning skills.
--
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Hroya
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Posted - 2010.12.16 12:34:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Jason1138
i went from 32.9 perception with 10% from Learning and +5's to 32.0. Kind of annoying
I realize its not the end of the world but it would be nice if CCP had listened to the CSM and not penalized us during this change over process
I am so glad they didnt. Eventhough i had my learning maxed aswell this change opens up alot of benefits to both new and old players. |
AterraX
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.16 12:34:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Zverofaust
Edited by: Zverofaust on 15/12/2010 19:37:11
From what I remember it will take several years of constant training before the amount of SP you've "lost" due to this change catches up with the amount of SP reimbursement you just received. In short, you won't actually experience this "loss in training time" until 2017 (or whatever it is).
Deal with it.
What a fallacy.
Us with maxed learning skills felt the effect right after the patch...slower training times....from teh bat.
Dosn't matter if the total sum redistributed isn't exhausted...that is just a red herring.
EvE got dumber and the lowest common donominator won...
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr
Dissonance Corp
BLACK-MARK
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Posted - 2010.12.16 12:34:00 -
[89]
Originally by: AterraX
EvE got dumber and the lowest common donominator won...
Classic. |
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.16 12:35:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Whitehound
First do you people want the learning skills removed, because you all want to skill faster, but are not willing to train the necessary learning skills. And now after the change do you mock those who train a little slower.
My 2 day old alt is skilling at 2790SP/h, once the Cerebral booster runs out in 33 days she will be so far ahead of you and your slowmotion learning speed that she might have problems spotting you in the mirror on the SP highway.
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