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Just for the record, I'm training slower now

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Jason1138	Posted - 2010.12.15 16:56:00 - [1] i went from 32.9 perception with 10% from Learning and +5's to 32.0. Kind of annoying I realize its not the end of the world but it would be nice if CCP had listened to the CSM and not penalized us during this change over process
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.12.15 16:58:00 - [2] This has been duly recorded and the record filed in /dev/null. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts	Posted - 2010.12.15 16:58:00 - [3] At most you will lose out on 52k sp a month... 52k sp... How petty can you be man.. -------------------------------------------- Quote: EVE-Online... Too rough for ya? Don't like it? GTFO...
SkinSin	Posted - 2010.12.15 17:01:00 - [4] Here's something novel... what you could do, is save all your regained SP, and then every month put 52K sp onto the skill you are training. Your training will then keep up with what you planned. Or you could just put it all on the first 5 skills in your plan and get ahead of your skill plan...
Ultim8Evil Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.12.15 17:02:00 - [5] CRY MOAR MY POS NEEDZ FUEL! I intend to copy-paste this in every cheese and whine thread about todays patch. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shintai Gallente Arx Io Orbital Factories Arx Io	Posted - 2010.12.15 17:03:00 - [6] I think its fine. Also makes the attribute points "prettier" behind the scene. Even tho I will lack those dreaded 52K SP? per month? Lol....lets not walk in too small shoes :) -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Rumple Fourskin	Posted - 2010.12.15 17:09:00 - [7] something is messed up. My base attributes are all 17 on 2 accounts. In the FAQ for this change they stated the new base would be 20/20/20/20/19. I made a post in skill discussion about this. Please confirm if you are at 17 base across the board and post in there.
Shintai Gallente Arx Io Orbital Factories Arx Io	Posted - 2010.12.15 17:13:00 - [8] 17 is the base. So nothing wrong. -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Corporal Punishment08 NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect	Posted - 2010.12.15 17:28:00 - [9] Our records show nothing.
Berikath	Posted - 2010.12.15 17:28:00 - [10] Edited by: Berikath on 15/12/2010 17:32:06 Originally by: Jason1138 i went from 32.9 perception with 10% from Learning and +5's to 32.0. Kind of annoying I realize its not the end of the world but it would be nice if CCP had listened to the CSM and not penalized us during this change over process No you didn't. You either went from 31.9 to 32 or 33 to 32 if you had learning V. 29 base points + 2.9 (10%) = 31.9 30 base points + 3 (10%) = 33 Originally by: Rumple Fourskin something is messed up. My base attributes are all 17 on 2 accounts. In the FAQ for this change they stated the new base would be 20/20/20/20/19. I made a post in skill discussion about this. Please confirm if you are at 17 base across the board and post in there. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Q: How does this affect my attributes? A: After the change you will be given 12 attribute points in each attribute. This means the default attributes will be 20/20/20/20/19 with Charisma being the 19. "Default" does not equal "base". Base attributes are 17. Default (aka, even distribution that a new character gets) works out to 20. * [ SIG] * Wish list for PI: One-click input routing Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! [ /sig ]
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2010.12.15 17:31:00 - [11] Originally by: Jason1138 i went from 32.9 perception with 10% from Learning and +5's to 32.0. Kind of annoying I realize its not the end of the world but it would be nice if CCP had listened to the CSM and not penalized us during this change over process Man that loss of 72 SP/hour is going to sting in 8 years time after you've exhausted the free SP you got. I feel your pain bro.
Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.12.15 17:45:00 - [12] Originally by: Durzel Man that loss of 72 SP/hour is going to sting in 8 years time after you've exhausted the free SP you got. I feel your pain bro. 8 yrs isn't out of the realm of possibility many of us have already been playing for 7.5 yrs +
Ultim8Evil Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.12.15 17:48:00 - [13] Originally by: Doppleganger Originally by: Durzel Man that loss of 72 SP/hour is going to sting in 8 years time after you've exhausted the free SP you got. I feel your pain bro. 8 yrs isn't out of the realm of possibility many of us have already been playing for 7.5 yrs + So on that topic, if you think back to all those times before the skill queue where you missed a few minutes of training here and there because a skill had ended, do you feel the need to cut yourself and whine on the forums? No, thought not. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2010.12.15 17:50:00 - [14] Originally by: Doppleganger Originally by: Durzel Man that loss of 72 SP/hour is going to sting in 8 years time after you've exhausted the free SP you got. I feel your pain bro. 8 yrs isn't out of the realm of possibility many of us have already been playing for 7.5 yrs + You'd have to be playing for more than the same amount of time again, train 100% within your remap and with +5s for that entire time, for the ENTIRE TIME, and never once not ONCE let your training slip, train things out of your attribute spec or have some RL issue that stops you playing (you know, like marriage, kids, lack of job, new job, moving house, etc.etc. all those things that people often do within an 8year span of their lives) - and if you don't do all of this then you will extend that time even longer. ANYONE whining about this is wrong. They are just simply wrong to whine, there's no justification whatsoever. It's absurd.
Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.12.15 17:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Ultim8Evil So on that topic, if you think back to all those times before the skill queue where you missed a few minutes of training here and there because a skill had ended, do you feel the need to cut yourself and whine on the forums? No, thought not. Nope cause over all that time I figured it up once and tops I missed around 6 hrs of time in all those yrs. Just because I have played for 7.5 yrs and might play for another 8 yrs you take that as a whine?
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2010.12.15 18:05:00 - [16] ITT: The small childs handfull of players who actually trained every single learning skill to 5 and now train a teensy bit slower even though the sp refund put them waaaaaaaay back in the lead are annoyed. Good.
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.12.15 18:12:00 - [17] Originally by: Jason1138 i went from 32.9 perception with 10% from Learning and +5's to 32.0. Kind of annoying I realize its not the end of the world but it would be nice if CCP had listened to the CSM and not penalized us during this change over process sux to be you
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.15 18:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu ITT: The small childs handfull of players who actually trained every single learning skill to 5 and now train a teensy bit slower even though the sp refund put them waaaaaaaay back in the lead are annoyed. Good. better yet: ITT: maxed learning people discover after several posts saying the same thing over and over again, that they now are learning 72sp/hour slower and throw a tantrum. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2010.12.15 18:34:00 - [19] dude, in 8 years time,when this nerf hits you they will most likely completely had changed the way sp and attributes work. So who cares.
Tetragamatron Omega	Posted - 2010.12.15 18:35:00 - [20] If you only care about sp/hour it means you are a carebear. Can't imagine how much sp I've missed out on by pvping 90% of the my game time in low end implants.
Harotak Method of Destruction	Posted - 2010.12.15 18:38:00 - [21] It will take EIGHT YEARS before the -52k sp per month you are losing will catch up to the free 5m sp you just received for max learning skills.
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.15 18:42:00 - [22] 4 of my 5 accounts are -72 SP/hr. Who cares? I'd be happy if they capped training at 2000 SP/hr so that my existing SP would become even MORE valuable. The 5.37M SP giveaway was an idiotic idea. The mini-nerf to max training speed is an irrelevant distraction.
PsychoBabe	Posted - 2010.12.15 18:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Tetragamatron Omega If you only care about sp/hour it means you are a carebear. Can't imagine how much sp I've missed out on by pvping 90% of the my game time in low end implants. Since you made this post with an alt I figured I would do the same... unless you consider this your pvp char Tetragamatron Omega that has 0 kills and 1 loss. I use to pvp with low lvl implants until I figured out how cheap +5s are and realized there was no reason to not pvp in them. Only reason to get out of the +5s to pvp is to get into a set of slave or crystal implants. Saying "If you only care about sp/hour it means you are a carebear." is not true as plenty of pvpers use +5s and to not use them just means someone is isk challenged.
Alhambra Rainwalker Caldari Rosa Alba Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.15 18:58:00 - [24] If you actually play for 15 years I really don`t think you need to train anything anymore. CCP might introduce something for "supervets" but really, you have all bases covered x 2 by that time.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.12.15 19:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Alhambra Rainwalker If you actually play for 15 years I really don`t think you need to train anything anymore. CCP might introduce something for "supervets" but really, you have all bases covered x 2 by that time. Oh no, to keep people interested they'll keep adding more stuff. HACs will be the new cruisers, carriers and supercarriers the new battleships, titans the new carriers, and something else the new supercarrier/titan. Then, once some people have these new toys, they'll increase the learning speeds (remove implants and give everyone a boost?) because they've made even more content irrelevant, so that everyone can get them faster. Then, to keep people interested... - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Jason1138	Posted - 2010.12.15 19:03:00 - [26] "Man that loss of 72 SP/hour is going to sting in 8 years time after you've exhausted the free SP you got." I already trained the "free" sp i just got. I'm not getting anything. I'm losing SP/hour as i said, its not the end of the world but its sort of irritating
Clolo Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.	Posted - 2010.12.15 19:14:00 - [27] Those people who are saying people should stop whining because they're getting a free 5m SP are probably the same people who think that if you mine your own minerals you always get a larger profit from things you make.
Frito11 Eve Defence Force Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.15 19:21:00 - [28] so basically your complaining because you wasted ~6 million SP training up your learnings to the max even though doing so would have took ~6+ years to makeup for having spent so much time training it when you could have just trained something else. you've been rewarded by CCP by them allowing us to put this wasted SP into places that matter in the game. the vast majority of players in eve do not have maxed learning skills, most people stopped training them around 1-2 million SP because of diminishing returns. the players that got a real buff in this are chars like mine that we made as newbs unknowing how to best make a char for skill training and had too many base Charisma points and not enough of the others. after this patch my char went from 27 perception to 31 with +4's in. this was impossible for me to achieve before the change even if i maxed my learning skills it would have only been 28
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.12.15 19:36:00 - [29] Originally by: Doppleganger Originally by: Durzel Man that loss of 72 SP/hour is going to sting in 8 years time after you've exhausted the free SP you got. I feel your pain bro. 8 yrs isn't out of the realm of possibility many of us have already been playing for 7.5 yrs + So in 8 years you can officially ***** and moan about it. Until then, STFU. --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Zverofaust Gallente Locus Industries	Posted - 2010.12.15 19:37:00 - [30] Edited by: Zverofaust on 15/12/2010 19:37:11 From what I remember it will take several years of constant training before the amount of SP you've "lost" due to this change catches up with the amount of SP reimbursement you just received. In short, you won't actually experience this "loss in training time" until 2017 (or whatever it is). Deal with it. ___________________________________________ The Hero of Kamela The Terror of Tararan The Executioner of Ezzara
Alariele Caldari Innovative Dynamics	Posted - 2010.12.15 19:38:00 - [31] Instead of writing this off between us, please post here: Feedback thread
Clolo Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.	Posted - 2010.12.15 19:44:00 - [32] Originally by: Frito11 so basically your complaining because you wasted ~6 million SP training up your learnings to the max even though doing so would have took ~6+ years to makeup for having spent so much time training it when you could have just trained something else. you've been rewarded by CCP by them allowing us to put this wasted SP into places that matter in the game. the vast majority of players in eve do not have maxed learning skills, most people stopped training them around 1-2 million SP because of diminishing returns. the players that got a real buff in this are chars like mine that we made as newbs unknowing how to best make a char for skill training and had too many base Charisma points and not enough of the others. after this patch my char went from 27 perception to 31 with +4's in. this was impossible for me to achieve before the change even if i maxed my learning skills it would have only been 28 The biggest issue I have is CCP not thinking ahead. If CCP said the current fastest skill training is XXXX, when we make these changes we will make sure that the max SP/hr doesn't fall below this, then people wouldn't be complaining. I'm sure CCP wants a nice round number. So if during the design phase they said it would take 18's across the board instead of 17's to at least maintain the current fastest sp/hr (I don't know if this number would accomplish that) you would get the people with max learning not feeling cheated and those without max learning would be even happier with the faster sp/hr gain. Again, the thing I think most max learning players are advocating is an additional attribute all around. This would benefit all players.
Frito11 Eve Defence Force Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.15 19:52:00 - [33] I obviously wouldn't complain if we got an extra attribute but i highly doubt they are going to do it.
Jason1138	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:45:00 - [34] "From what I remember it will take several years of constant training before the amount of SP you've "lost" due to this change catches up with the amount of SP reimbursement you just received. In short, you won't actually experience this "loss in training time" until 2017 (or whatever it is). Deal with it." i was 23 mil SP yesterday, i'm 23 mil today. I didn't "recieve" any SP. SP i had was moved to something else. I have no idea why this is so hard for some people to wrap their heads around Obviously, if CCP wants to give me a few mil SP and then slow my training time down, I will say nothing about it. No one just got given any SP though See, its like this. you work for a bank, making $500 a week. You deposit your first 2 checks in the bank. A month later, your boss cuts your pay to $400 a week, and gives you your thousand dollars back and closes that account. Some moron on the bank forum then says "well it will be 10 weeks before the amount of money they just cut your pay by totals up to what your boss just gave you, so why don't you shut up about it until then" but your boss didn't give you anything. He returned what was already yours, and took something from you. Do you understand that now?
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:49:00 - [35] Originally by: Jason1138 "From what I remember it will take several years of constant training before the amount of SP you've "lost" due to this change catches up with the amount of SP reimbursement you just received. In short, you won't actually experience this "loss in training time" until 2017 (or whatever it is). Deal with it." i was 23 mil SP yesterday, i'm 23 mil today. I didn't "recieve" any SP. SP i had was moved to something else. I have no idea why this is so hard for some people to wrap their heads around Obviously, if CCP wants to give me a few mil SP and then slow my training time down, I will say nothing about it. No one just got given any SP though See, its like this. you work for a bank, making $500 a week. You deposit your first 2 checks in the bank. A month later, your boss cuts your pay to $400 a week, and gives you your thousand dollars back and closes that account. Some moron on the bank forum then says "well it will be 10 weeks before the amount of money they just cut your pay by totals up to what your boss just gave you, so why don't you shut up about it until then" but your boss didn't give you anything. He returned what was already yours, and took something from you. Do you understand that now? Actually it's more like you bought a new TV for $500, and then the manufacturer gave you your money back minus the sales tax (or VAT if you prefer), which you then spent on something else. In the end you have the same amount of money in your possession, and can still watch the new TV. So why are you *****ing exactly? --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Jason1138	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:52:00 - [36] because i'm training slower today than i was yesterday? did i not make that clear?
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:53:00 - [37] Originally by: Jason1138 because i'm training slower today than i was yesterday? did i not make that clear? And no one cares. Did we not all make that clear? --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:55:00 - [38] Originally by: De'Veldrin Actually it's more like you bought a new TV for $500, and then the manufacturer gave you your money back minus the sales tax (or VAT if you prefer), which you then spent on something else. In the end you have the same amount of money in your possession, and can still watch the new TV. So why are you *****ing exactly? Close... add in to get the money back you had to send them the tv's remote back. So you can still change channels you just lose a little time every day having to get up and do it compared not having to.
Jason1138	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:56:00 - [39] "And no one cares. Did we not all make that clear?" but you DO care. that's why you're posting here over and over
Clolo Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.	Posted - 2010.12.15 20:59:00 - [40] Originally by: De'Veldrin Originally by: Jason1138 because i'm training slower today than i was yesterday? did i not make that clear? And no one cares. Did we not all make that clear? As someone who is training less sp/hr then yesterday, I care.
Zenst Hall Of Flame Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:13:00 - [41] Edited by: Zenst on 15/12/2010 21:15:17 Well all I know is that I went from 3 days 8 hours to 3 days 19 hours on my current skill, so hardly the insermountably neglegable difference some appear to panda towards. But then this effects anybody who had advanced learnings higher than 4 on anything. If only they had done a base of a bit higher then NOBODY would have any reason to no too feel good about this, instead of being near on a day a week down at this rate. and for those going yeah but the free sp you can allocate, please define free when you think about it and if you still not seeing it contact me about buying your own house of me, I'll do you a great deal. All that said, been a smooth patch rollout, but would of rather of had a popup screen on the cancel order option on the market. beyond that all I have to say is my feelings on attribute changes though ccp will only hear What CCP hears
Frito11 Eve Defence Force Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.15 21:56:00 - [42] the SP you got reimbursed pretty much is free SP because it was literally doing nothing for you before in the game other than making your skill train 1% faster (maybe) you spent how many months training up those advanced learning skills to lvl 5? well guess what CCP just did you a favor and let you undo a mistake you made by training them and now you can put the SP into something that is actually useful rather than something that would have took you many years to recoup the time invested in training it. the way i see it what CCP did was pretty fair and there are 3 types of players in the game as far as how they were effected #1 players who trained AL skills to less than level 4, these players got a nice attribute boost from this patch but not much extra SP to redistribute #2 players who trained AL skills to level 4. these players see no change in skill training time (or very little) and got a decent amount of SP to redistribute #3 players who trained AL skills past level 4. these players lost a very slight amount of training speed, how much depends on how many of them they actually trained to V. these players got ALOT of SP that will enable them to instantly train into all kinds of useful ships/skills in the game right away and all they loose is a slight amount of training speed. it will take YEARS for this loss of training speed to actually negatively impact your SP count VS the speed you were training before, taking into account that learning SP before the patch was as far as being able to do things in the game is concerned completely useless. everyone wins with this change nobody got short changed and i know a lot of people in my corp who had 4~ mil + learning SP and knew they would train slightly slower before this patch but were still really excited to get all that useless SP back and put it into something useful. why you're not in this group doesn't really make sense but then again training ADV Learning skills past 4 didn't make much sense either IMO.
Terianna Eri Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.12.15 22:00:00 - [43] Originally by: Jason1138 "And no one cares. Did we not all make that clear?" but you DO care. that's why you're posting here over and over I don't care that you're training slower now (SLIGHTLY AND IN AN OPTIMAL SCENARIO). I care that you're **ting up the forums with irrelevant crap. ________________ Originally by:** CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
PsychoBabe	Posted - 2010.12.15 22:08:00 - [44] Originally by: Terianna Eri I don't care that you're training slower now (SLIGHTLY AND IN AN OPTIMAL SCENARIO). I care that you're **ting up the forums with irrelevant crap. Just like how I had to put up with ppl **ting up the forums with "when are ccp going to remove learning skills" threads like 2 per week for what the last 2 yrs?
Herman Menderchuk Rod Torfulson's Armada featuring Herman Menderchuk	Posted - 2010.12.15 22:58:00 - [45] I think the obvious answer to all this is to give an extra point in distributable points (so the new character stats are 20s across the board) that way people are only down .4 total skill points. After that a small change to neural remaps. What I'm suggesting is capping remaps at eleven. Remaps go to ten, but these will be one faster. Most blokes will be training at ten, you're at ten here, all the way up. Where can you go from there, nowhere. What we do then, if we need that extra push over the cliff? Put it up to eleven! Quote: Why don't you just make ten faster and make ten be the top number and make that a little faster? ... These go to eleven.
Vygg Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.15 23:03:00 - [46] Originally by: Jason1138 i was 23 mil SP yesterday, i'm 23 mil today. I didn't "recieve" any SP. SP i had was moved to something else. I have no idea why this is so hard for some people to wrap their heads around You were about 18 mil SP yesterday, plus about 5 mil invested in skills that didn't do anything but help you achieve SP faster. You're now 5 mil SP richer in skills that actually do things, and will not see a net reduction in actual useful SP until years from now, so the original point about not losing training time until then stands unless you're just being semantic.
William Cooly Sol Enterprises	Posted - 2010.12.15 23:17:00 - [47] Originally by: Herman Menderchuk Quote: Why don't you just make ten faster and make ten be the top number and make that a little faster? ... These go to eleven. For 10 billion isk I'll make you one that goes to 12. - I troll stupid people.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.15 23:21:00 - [48] Hey guys I am an imbecile who doesn't know math. I think having 23M sp is the same regardless of what those points are actually in. I was just given months of training time back and will be ahead of where I would have been until sometime in the 2020's. But I see a marginally longer skill time and it makes me cry.
Jason1138	Posted - 2010.12.15 23:50:00 - [49] "I care that you're ****ting up the forums with irrelevant crap." and you're bumping it to the top every time you stop to tell me how stupid it is. see how that works? people who have no problem with training being slower because they never trained learning to begin with obviously do not care about this either. i got that so they can stop telling me about it
Brian Ballsack	Posted - 2010.12.15 23:52:00 - [50] Some people (including the OP) really suck
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.16 00:00:00 - [51] Originally by: Jason1138 "I care that you're **ting up the forums with irrelevant crap." and you're bumping it to the top every time you stop to tell me how stupid it is. see how that works? people who have no problem with training being slower because they never trained learning to begin with obviously do not care about this either. i got that so they can stop telling me about it well, we like to troll. and you like to feed us, sooo..... keep going. --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.16 00:16:00 - [52] Originally by: Jason1138 "I care that you're ****ting up the forums with irrelevant crap." and you're bumping it to the top every time you stop to tell me how stupid it is. see how that works? people who have no problem with training being slower because they never trained learning to begin with obviously do not care about this either. i got that so they can stop telling me about it u mad bro? Are you just addicted to seeing a high number per hour, or short times, and not actually having skills? Or are you just really, really stupid?
Shemmy 7th Space Cavalry Freemason Core	Posted - 2010.12.16 00:16:00 - [53] Originally by: Space Pinata Hey guys I am an imbecile who doesn't know math. I think having 23M sp is the same regardless of what those points are actually in. I was just given months of training time back and will be ahead of where I would have been until sometime in the 2020's. But I see a marginally longer skill time and it makes me cry. Someone who gets it, yay. Yesterday, I had Xm skillpoints. Today, I have Xm skillpoints, I train very slightly slower, and I can also fly a carrier with fighters and triage, all of which I couldn't do yesterday. If you are complaining about this, there is no hope for you, because you think that SP TOTALS are everything. They are not, and they are actually meaningless in the grand scheme of things. If you've spent 7.5 years to get to this stage and you still think SP totals are important, well I don't know what to say.
Lyris Nairn Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.16 00:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Shemmy Originally by: Space Pinata Hey guys I am an imbecile who doesn't know math. I think having 23M sp is the same regardless of what those points are actually in. I was just given months of training time back and will be ahead of where I would have been until sometime in the 2020's. But I see a marginally longer skill time and it makes me cry. Someone who gets it, yay. Yesterday, I had Xm skillpoints. Today, I have Xm skillpoints, I train very slightly slower, and I can also fly a carrier with fighters and triage, all of which I couldn't do yesterday. If you are complaining about this, there is no hope for you, because you think that SP TOTALS are everything. They are not, and they are actually meaningless in the grand scheme of things. If you've spent 7.5 years to get to this stage and you still think SP totals are important, well I don't know what to say. Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
TimMc Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2010.12.16 01:23:00 - [55] With learning maxed and +5s, you obviously are some empire ***got and deserve no sympathy.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Amarr Dissonance Corp BLACK-MARK	Posted - 2010.12.16 01:45:00 - [56] Yeah but I'm doing great. And since my needs are more important then yours, all is well.
Joss56 Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.12.16 01:46:00 - [57] Epic topic, almost pathetic. I'm not agressing you personaly but your whine. How in this non realistic universe where so many other things are completly across/against any logic can you shat yourself for these tiny 72sp/h You shoud train Gallente and use blasters or snipe with rails, you could see there are lots of things that don't work and more important than 72sp/h. Sorry, you post this thread and is too late wright now. All we'll gonna see here is trollin, whining and tons of tounts. Quite sad ________________________________________________ "You do realise you live on a globe, right? And that there places outside the USA/UK?"
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.12.16 02:28:00 - [58] Originally by: Frito11 everyone wins with this change nobody got short changed and i know a lot of people in my corp who had 4~ mil + learning SP and knew they would train slightly slower before this patch but were still really excited to get all that useless SP back and put it into something useful. why you're not in this group doesn't really make sense but then again training ADV Learning skills past 4 didn't make much sense either IMO. Indeed, everyone I know is treating today as if it was Christmas.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.12.16 04:39:00 - [59] If it's any comfort I'm now training 10 SP/hour faster. :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug: Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Unraveller Chase	Posted - 2010.12.16 05:17:00 - [60] Yeah it's not the end of the world.. but I too am annoyed, spending time to train all the learning skills to optimize the output and then getting nerfed kind of irks me.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2010.12.16 05:22:00 - [61] Originally by: Jason1138 "From what I remember it will take several years of constant training before the amount of SP you've "lost" due to this change catches up with the amount of SP reimbursement you just received. In short, you won't actually experience this "loss in training time" until 2017 (or whatever it is). Deal with it." i was 23 mil SP yesterday, i'm 23 mil today. I didn't "recieve" any SP. SP i had was moved to something else. I have no idea why this is so hard for some people to wrap their heads around did your mom drop you on your head as a child?
Lilla Kharn Amarr B4D W0LF Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.16 05:28:00 - [62] Originally by: Malcanis If it's any comfort I'm now training 10 SP/hour faster. :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug: :smug: That's it? I got three remaps on my accounts not sure how I did it but I'm training 600 sp/h faster. ============================================= "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
Snowmann	Posted - 2010.12.16 05:31:00 - [63] I'm actually training a bit faster just to let you know. I did the math way back when, then did a bit of logical reasoning, and realized that it wasn't really worth it to max out all your learning skills. Not really. Sometimes you need to think beyond the pure numbers. Another nice aspect about this game.
Lilla Kharn Amarr B4D W0LF Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.16 05:33:00 - [64] Originally by: Snowmann I'm actually training a bit faster just to let you know. I did the math way back when, then did a bit of logical reasoning, and realized that it wasn't really worth it to max out all your learning skills. Not really. Sometimes you need to think beyond the pure numbers. Another nice aspect about this game. Iirc it takes 3 years 6 months to make back the time if you train all learning to V. ============================================= "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.12.16 05:35:00 - [65] Originally by: Lilla Kharn Originally by: Snowmann I'm actually training a bit faster just to let you know. I did the math way back when, then did a bit of logical reasoning, and realized that it wasn't really worth it to max out all your learning skills. Not really. Sometimes you need to think beyond the pure numbers. Another nice aspect about this game. This was always clear to me ... and the notion of "time value of money" applies to the skills too... a skill today is worth a little more than a skill tomorrow.. Iirc it takes 3 years 6 months to make back the time if you train all learning to V.
Snowmann	Posted - 2010.12.16 05:42:00 - [66] Edited by: Snowmann on 16/12/2010 05:42:49 Originally by: Lilla Kharn Iirc it takes 3 years 6 months to make back the time if you train all learning to V. Equals not worth it in my book. I'm planning to stop training my main pvp char in less than double that time. Med clone considerations outweigh any benifit of further training atm. I've already stopped training my main PVE alt.
Khalia Nestune Honorless Internet Jerks	Posted - 2010.12.16 05:49:00 - [67] The SP in learning was fundamentally useless. It did nothing for your character, except increase the rate at which you trained. So you maxed out learning skills? You had 5.376M (or whatever) useless skill points. Skill points NOT helping you PvE better, PvP better, trade better, build things better, etc. So now CCP gave you all of it back. You just won 5.376M new SP. Why new? Because the SP in learning weren't worth sht. And so you ** about losing 72sp/hour? As everyone with more than one brain cell has pointed out, if you apply the now useful skill points to what you would have trained at 72sp/hour higher, you won't actually see a loss in useful skill points for 8 years**.
Rocky Deadshot	Posted - 2010.12.16 06:31:00 - [68] Originally by: Jason1138 i was 23 mil SP yesterday, i'm 23 mil today. I didn't "recieve" any SP. SP i had was moved to something else. I have no idea why this is so hard for some people to wrap their heads around Obviously, if CCP wants to give me a few mil SP and then slow my training time down, I will say nothing about it. No one just got given any SP though See, its like this. you work for a bank, making $500 a week. You deposit your first 2 checks in the bank. A month later, your boss cuts your pay to $400 a week, and gives you your thousand dollars back and closes that account. Some moron on the bank forum then says "well it will be 10 weeks before the amount of money they just cut your pay by totals up to what your boss just gave you, so why don't you shut up about it until then" but your boss didn't give you anything. He returned what was already yours, and took something from you. Do you understand that now? Your obviously trolling cause i would hope no one is this stupid but let me spell it out for you on how your in the best position out of anyone in eve right now. 2days ago the max amount of skill points anyone could have (ignoring training time problems and stuff) was X... now its X- ~6mil if math has taught me anything is that if you think of your account in terms of % of skills learned in the game than if u hold your number of skill points constant but lower the total number than you go up in %. Anyone that actually trained all those boring skills to 5 now has a crap ton of skill points to move around... but waa waa sounds like u wasted them, thats your freaking fault. If u take into consideration someone that started at the same time has you, you are now way far ahead of them in terms of "usefull" skills. So quite QQing about waaa i wasted my time training to lvl 5, now my extra sp/hr is lower and i spent my points CCP gave me on stupid useless skills... like corp management. after all, who would want to be in a corp with your whiny ass
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.12.16 06:33:00 - [69] Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 16/12/2010 06:33:39 error
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2010.12.16 06:58:00 - [70] Edited by: MotherMoon on 16/12/2010 07:00:12 Originally by: Lilla Kharn Originally by: Snowmann I'm actually training a bit faster just to let you know. I did the math way back when, then did a bit of logical reasoning, and realized that it wasn't really worth it to max out all your learning skills. Not really. Sometimes you need to think beyond the pure numbers. Another nice aspect about this game. Iirc it takes 3 years 6 months to make back the time if you train all learning to V. not true, this doesn't take in account double training time. and double implant, and double effective learning skills bonuses that are now gone. it's in fact a lot sooner because of those changes. I did the math in a huge post a year ago, it boils down to the payoff if you train all learning to 5, 2 years to pay off.
Jii Tral	Posted - 2010.12.16 07:26:00 - [71] Edited by: Jii Tral on 16/12/2010 07:28:12 The five million or so SP Refund people would have gotten if they maxed all the learning skills is the same amount of skill points that would have gone into other skills if they didn't have to train learning skills in the first place. Now listen closely children. Listen real good. The people who trained it all to lvl 5 had to do it at a SLOWER SP/hr rate than we have now. Meaning they put far more time they would have into that 5 million skill points than they would now with the new base attribute points. It's not really a gift at all and punishes people who had trained everything to five in learning. However people like Jason1138 actually DO have a reason to complain because it was explained here in this devblog http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=824 that training speeds aren't going to be slowed down at ALL. Here's a quote from the devblog. Quote: WHY DIDN'T YOU SETTLE ON A LOWER ATTRIBUTE COUNT/TRAINING SPEED? We didn't want anyone to come out of this change with a lower average training speed than they currently have (or at least, not by any noticeable amount). We also didn't want to punish people for making sensible, long-term decisions in the past based on the best information available to them at the time, because this would be terrible design practice. So really this is a good thing to bring to their attention because it's not working out at all as intended. EDIT: And to makes things clear I didn't bother training everything to level five. I went Basic Learning 4, Learning skill 4 and the advanced ones to 3
Jennifer Starling Amarr	Posted - 2010.12.16 08:13:00 - [72] Hey! I'm also training at a lower speed now!! Anyway: * I did get 3.2 million SP that I can use for actual useful in-game skills; * Before I reach the point that the skillspeed is going to hurt I'm probably not playing EVE anymore; * 1 extra remap means I can train all charisma skills I want at max speed!! So that's another extra sp/hour bonus; * I'm still happy for all the new players who don't have to endure the drag; Best Xmas present ever!!
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.16 10:35:00 - [73] Originally by: Jii Tral Edited by: Jii Tral on 16/12/2010 07:28:12 The five million or so SP Refund people would have gotten if they maxed all the learning skills is the same amount of skill points that would have gone into other skills if they didn't have to train learning skills in the first place. Now listen closely children. Listen real good. The people who trained it all to lvl 5 had to do it at a SLOWER SP/hr rate than we have now. Meaning they put far more time they would have into that 5 million skill points than they would now with the new base attribute points. It's not really a gift at all and punishes people who had trained everything to five in learning. No, it doesn't. You might say "it rewards people who DIDN'T train everything to five", but it does not PUNISH anyone. The people who trained every learning skill to 5 are substantially better off today than they were yesterday. By five million SP. A year from now, they'll be better off than they would have been a year from now. A year after that, still better off than they would have been had the change never happened. And so on. And so forth. Until about 2020. Assuming EVE is still a thing and people still play and the entire system hasn't been redesigned again by then, they will finally be marginally behind where they would have been before skills were removed. In 20. ****ing. 20. So, tell me how they got nerfed, exactly? The only way they got nerfed is that they made a stupid choice in the past, and CCP didn't give then any extra-bonus over anyone else. I only got 600k SP today, not 5 million. And don't try to say learnings to 5 werent always stupid. By the time they pay off your character is so old that you don't have anything you care about training anyway. Carrier V or something, maybe? By that point its a chore to find something worth training next..
tla s'hpyt	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:06:00 - [74] So I spent a few months training SP and now I'm being told that SP was apperantly free..... And people try to say eve players are smarter than average?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:23:00 - [75] Originally by: tla s'hpyt So I spent a few months training SP and now I'm being told that SP was apperantly free..... And people try to say eve players are smarter than average? In how many other MMOs do you get players stating the minerals they mine themselves are free? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:24:00 - [76] Originally by: tla s'hpyt So I spent a few months training SP and now I'm being told that SP was apperantly free..... And people try to say eve players are smarter than average? I know right I spent 5000$ on a car and then someone gave me 5000$ back and upgraded my car to a sports car. But I know I paid for the sports car. Even though I have all my money still.
Shemmy 7th Space Cavalry Freemason Core	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:34:00 - [77] Edited by: Shemmy on 16/12/2010 11:37:51 Ignoring the children comment ... Originally by: Jii Tral The people who trained it all to lvl 5 had to do it at a SLOWER SP/hr rate than we have now. Meaning they put far more time they would have into that 5 million skill points than they would now with the new base attribute points. It's not really a gift at all and punishes people who had trained everything to five in learning. Firstly, you never 'had' to train learning skills, it was a choice. You certainly never 'had' to train them to level 5. Regardless of this, if you did train to 5, you were subsequently training more skillpoints an hour than the people who didn't, and stole a march on those people who joined at the same time as you and chose only level 4. Therefore in your utopian cloud cuckoo land where total skillpoints means everything, you were ahead of them. Guess what, now we all train at the same speed, and you're still ahead of them, due to your genius choices. It's not like you'll lose out on anything. Originally by: Jii Tral However people like Jason1138 actually DO have a reason to complain because it was explained here in this devblog http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=824 that training speeds aren't going to be slowed down at ALL. Here's a quote from the devblog. Quote: WHY DIDN'T YOU SETTLE ON A LOWER ATTRIBUTE COUNT/TRAINING SPEED? We didn't want anyone to come out of this change with a lower average training speed than they currently have (or at least, not by any noticeable amount). We also didn't want to punish people for making sensible, long-term decisions in the past based on the best information available to them at the time, because this would be terrible design practice. So really this is a good thing to bring to their attention because it's not working out at all as intended. In this bit I bolded and underlined are the contradiction in your quote. And in my view, speaking as someone with comfortably over 100m skillpoints and 5m learning SP's to re-invest, 72 SP an hour, or whatever it is, will not be a noticeable amount. Originally by: "zenst" and for those going yeah but the free sp you can allocate, please define free when you think about it and if you still not seeing it contact me about buying your own house of me, I'll do you a great deal. False argument. The comparison should be "We're compulsory purchasing your house, you can have a new one 5 streets away, the only difference is instead of the study on the front of your house you had before, you can now choose either a swimming pool, a conservatory, or a sauna out the back. Oh and the garden is 1ft shorter." Don't build false equivalences and criticise them.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:36:00 - [78] I think CCP should have the option for players (mandatory for OP though) to have all your SP doubled and put in a new skill, which is completely useless. That includes all your current trained skills. So if you now have 50M SP, then you have 100M SP, but all of it in a new useless skill. Maybe that will show the OP the difference in what the little number shows and actual effective ammount of SP.
thatbloke Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:37:00 - [79] Originally by: Jason1138 i went from 32.9 perception with 10% from Learning and +5's to 32.0. Kind of annoying I realize its not the end of the world but it would be nice if CCP had listened to the CSM and not penalized us during this change over process boo. frickin. hoo. Originally by: CCP Shadow I think we'd be better off with a troll shard.
My Postman	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:39:00 - [80] OP: There are the ppl who whined for to years for the removal of learning skills, to speed up their skilling, and now they¦ve won. There are the ppl who maxed out learning skills, you and me, and now we are nerfed. You make a thread about it, and now get flamed by those who actually are skilling faster for free, and turn the fact that you and i got a "gift" by ccp, meaning those 5,3m skillpoints we skilled slower when doing them. Accept the fact that they are the vast majority, but keep in mind that said majority must not be right.
Shemmy 7th Space Cavalry Freemason Core	Posted - 2010.12.16 11:50:00 - [81] Oh, god, so many tears over something so tiny. Make it stop. Never, since the criticism of Mick Jagger's wiener ...
Snowmann	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:00:00 - [82] I almost wish the Devs just deleted the learning skills without refunding the points, but still increased the base attributes. Some of these guys must have real issues with intrest truncation on their savings accounts.
Jenny Hawk State War Academy	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:06:00 - [83] Originally by: Shemmy Oh, god, so many tears over something so tiny. Make it stop. "It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing. Such a little thing." ùBoromir
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:12:00 - [84] Originally by: My Postman There are the ppl who whined for to years for the removal of learning skills, to speed up their skilling, and now they¦ve won. Yes. They're called CCP. Quote: There are the ppl who maxed out learning skills, you and me, and now we are nerfed. Everyone who has ever trained anything gets nerfed every now and then. So what? Quote: You make a thread about it, and now get flamed by those who actually are skilling faster for free àand also by those who train a tiiiiiny bit slower, but who still understand the vast benefits from the change. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:16:00 - [85] Originally by: My Postman OP: There are the ppl who whined for to years for the removal of learning skills, to speed up their skilling, and now they¦ve won. There are the ppl who maxed out learning skills, you and me, and now we are nerfed. You make a thread about it, and now get flamed by those who actually are skilling faster for free, and turn the fact that you and i got a "gift" by ccp, meaning those 5,3m skillpoints we skilled slower when doing them. Accept the fact that they are the vast majority, but keep in mind that said majority must not be right. How is receiving over 5M SP possibly a nerf? In that case, @CCP can you please nerf me a few times more? Oh and also please nerf hybrid weapons FFS.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:28:00 - [86] Edited by: Whitehound on 16/12/2010 12:30:35 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Zhim'Fufu ITT: The small childs handfull of players who actually trained every single learning skill to 5 and now train a teensy bit slower even though the sp refund put them waaaaaaaay back in the lead are annoyed. Good. better yet: ITT: maxed learning people discover after several posts saying the same thing over and over again, that they now are learning 72sp/hour slower and throw a tantrum. I am not throwing a tantrum. I point out the fail. First do you people want the learning skills removed, because you all want to skill faster, but are not willing to train the necessary learning skills. And now after the change do you mock those who train a little slower. The game was changed for a bunch of hypocrites. Now I want to see your faces in the coming times. CCP has got the tool to move all skill points around the way they like. If they change the game for hypocrites then we get to see some very awesome nerfs. I hope you can enjoy all of them as much as you enjoyed the removal of the learning skills. --
Hroya	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:34:00 - [87] Originally by: Jason1138 i went from 32.9 perception with 10% from Learning and +5's to 32.0. Kind of annoying I realize its not the end of the world but it would be nice if CCP had listened to the CSM and not penalized us during this change over process I am so glad they didnt. Eventhough i had my learning maxed aswell this change opens up alot of benefits to both new and old players.
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:34:00 - [88] Originally by: Zverofaust Edited by: Zverofaust on 15/12/2010 19:37:11 From what I remember it will take several years of constant training before the amount of SP you've "lost" due to this change catches up with the amount of SP reimbursement you just received. In short, you won't actually experience this "loss in training time" until 2017 (or whatever it is). Deal with it. What a fallacy. Us with maxed learning skills felt the effect right after the patch...slower training times....from teh bat. Dosn't matter if the total sum redistributed isn't exhausted...that is just a red herring. EvE got dumber and the lowest common donominator won... ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
Nicolo da'Vicenza Amarr Dissonance Corp BLACK-MARK	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:34:00 - [89] Originally by: AterraX EvE got dumber and the lowest common donominator won... Classic.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:35:00 - [90] Originally by: Whitehound First do you people want the learning skills removed, because you all want to skill faster, but are not willing to train the necessary learning skills. And now after the change do you mock those who train a little slower. My 2 day old alt is skilling at 2790SP/h, once the Cerebral booster runs out in 33 days she will be so far ahead of you and your slowmotion learning speed that she might have problems spotting you in the mirror on the SP highway.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:50:00 - [91] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Whitehound First do you people want the learning skills removed, because you all want to skill faster, but are not willing to train the necessary learning skills. And now after the change do you mock those who train a little slower. My 2 day old alt is skilling at 2790SP/h, once the Cerebral booster runs out in 33 days she will be so far ahead of you and your slowmotion learning speed that she might have problems spotting you in the mirror on the SP highway. Are you just happy to see me writing on the forum? --
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.16 13:02:00 - [92] Originally by: AterraX Originally by: Zverofaust Edited by: Zverofaust on 15/12/2010 19:37:11 From what I remember it will take several years of constant training before the amount of SP you've "lost" due to this change catches up with the amount of SP reimbursement you just received. In short, you won't actually experience this "loss in training time" until 2017 (or whatever it is). Deal with it. What a fallacy. Us with maxed learning skills felt the effect right after the patch...slower training times....from teh bat. Dosn't matter if the total sum redistributed isn't exhausted...that is just a red herring. EvE got dumber and the lowest common donominator won... A red herring how? Heres a tip: Put 2400 SP into your skill every day, from the reallocated points. That's +100/hour. You lost 72/hour because of the patch. You'll gain 32 SP -more- an hour than you did before the update. For the next six years.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.16 14:34:00 - [93] Originally by: Whitehound First do you people want the learning skills removed, because you all want to skill faster, but are not willing to train the necessary learning skills. This is, of course, incorrect, but you know this already. Quote: And now after the change do you mock those who train a little slower No. They are mocking the whiners, per the usual EVE tradition. In this case, in particular, they're mocking those who whine over a vast improvement that left pretty much everyone in a better place than where they were before. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.12.16 14:35:00 - [94] This reminds me of the bawwing after CCP "nerfed" Stealth Bombers by turning them in to 600 DPS @ 40Km or 300 DPS @ 90Km range covops-cloaked frigates with additional CPU and powergrid. For those of you who weren't there and missed this, I'm not kidding. People were genuinely and non-ironically saying that this was a nerf. Seriously, some people are genuinely only willing to see the negative side of anything. If you made them the Emperor of Jupiter, all they'd do is whine about how long their commute to work was gonna be. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Aunty Nora	Posted - 2010.12.16 14:53:00 - [95] Just for the record, I dont give a .
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.16 14:56:00 - [96] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Whitehound First do you people want the learning skills removed, because you all want to skill faster, but are not willing to train the necessary learning skills. This is, of course, incorrect, but you know this already. Stop posting, troll. You are so dumb ... Does one always need to throw you a bone before you start thinking? Why did the players not want to train these skills? Because it was obvious that if you wanted to skill faster you had to train them. This is why they wanted them removed. If they did not want to train faster then they would not have a problem with the learning skills in the first place. I really do not know where you always pull your arguments from. Quote: No. They are mocking the whiners, per the usual EVE tradition. In this case, in particular, they're mocking those who whine over a vast improvement that left pretty much everyone in a better place than where they were before. And, no, it is not in the tradition of EVE to be a hypocrite. Where do you just always ... --
Nuniki Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.12.16 15:28:00 - [97] On both my accounts I wasn't 5/5. I am training faster. Naaahaaa!
Jennifer Starling Amarr	Posted - 2010.12.16 15:57:00 - [98] Originally by: Whitehound First do you people want the learning skills removed, because you all want to skill faster, but are not willing to train the necessary learning skills. And now after the change do you mock those who train a little slower. This isn't true. A lot of people who actually had them maxed out still wanted them removed. And CCPs main argument has always been the new player experience. For instance: I'm training slower atm than before the patch. I had int and mem at 5/5. Yes I know I won't catch up with anyone anymore as I did before. But why should I care? I don't have the fastest car anymore so to speak but I've been put so much ahead of my plan that I don't really bother. The extra remap will also make me train some non-int/mem or per/wil skills faster. The difference between you and me is mainly that I don't regard my skilltraining in relation to others but in relation to the goals I want to achieve. And in that respect we all won.
Erik Vlantir	Posted - 2010.12.16 16:08:00 - [99] I'm training faster than I was yesterday. Working as intended.
Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.12.16 16:21:00 - [100] Stop posting, troll. You are so dumb ... Does one always need to throw you a bone before you start thinking?
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2010.12.16 16:35:00 - [101] Edited by: Caldariftw123 on 16/12/2010 16:35:40 Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Whitehound First do you people want the learning skills removed, because you all want to skill faster, but are not willing to train the necessary learning skills. This is, of course, incorrect, but you know this already. Stop posting, troll. You are so dumb ... Does one always need to throw you a bone before you start thinking? Why did the players not want to train these skills? Because it was obvious that if you wanted to skill faster you had to train them. This is why they wanted them removed. If they did not want to train faster then they would not have a problem with the learning skills in the first place. I really do not know where you always pull your arguments from. Quote: No. They are mocking the whiners, per the usual EVE tradition. In this case, in particular, they're mocking those who whine over a vast improvement that left pretty much everyone in a better place than where they were before. And, no, it is not in the tradition of EVE to be a hypocrite. Where do you just always ... The argument for removing the learning skills went on for so long you couldn't possibly have missed it, yet you misrepresent it so obviously here like a troll. You didn't get your way, you are whining, the learning skill removal reasons had nothing to do with "I can't be bothered training it, therefore I should get it for free!" and they were ALMOST universally hated/regarded as a mistake by all, including CCP themselves, for all sorts of reasons.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.16 17:35:00 - [102] Edited by: Whitehound on 16/12/2010 17:36:16 @Caldariftw123: All you are saying is that you did not get it in all this time. Moving on ... Originally by: Jennifer Starling This isn't true. A lot of people who actually had them maxed out still wanted them removed. And CCPs main argument has always been the new player experience. It is true. I do not deny that some of the new players had no problems with the learning skills, and that older players would accept a removal if a fair compromise can be found. However, it has got nothing to do with those who demanded a removal, but now mock those who point out having a little less than before. Quote: The difference between you and me is mainly that I don't regard my skilltraining in relation to others but in relation to the goals I want to achieve. And in that respect we all won. Then you are either dumb or you are just seeing it wrong, because there will always be players with more and less SPs than you and me. Hopefully do we not get to see another change like this one again so that there will always be a direct relationship between the years played and the skill points one has been rewarded with for playing EVE. The changes CCP has made is a confession regarding the skill system in general. It has flaws, which I do not think it has, but this is the overall statement of the series of changes made by CCP. I do not know why players need to be sitting in a battlecruiser within only two weeks time. Next thing we know is they will want to be sitting in battle ships within their first week. Together with those players who want to see capital ships disappear, because they lack the patience for the very long skills, will EVE gradually have less quality players and see a growth of a dumb mass with the attention span of goldfishes. Of course, this is my view when I write "a dumb mass". I will stay around as long as I can and watch the changes happening. It would not be the first game that I have played to the very last second until the network plugs got pulled. (It gets pretty lonely at the end.) --
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2010.12.16 17:49:00 - [103] Edited by: Caldariftw123 on 16/12/2010 17:50:10 Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 16/12/2010 17:36:16 @Caldariftw123: All you are saying is that you did not get it in all this time. Moving on ... And all you are saying is that your opinion sticks out like a sore thumb as being completely misaligned with the vast majority of other players and CCP themselves. Does this mean you are WRONG? Not necessarily, does it mean the masses are RIGHT? Again, not necessarily. However, learning skills were flawed, their removal has benefited almost everyone and even those now training slightly slower gained more from this than they have lost (by being able to redistribute skillpoints to USEFUL skills, and from the benefit they gained in SP for all the time they had all Vs which no player without all Vs can never ever catch up with as all people's skill training is now at the same speed). So which side is 'right' well it COULD be your lonely side but .. I seriously doubt it.
Vaedon Part-timers Association	Posted - 2010.12.16 17:55:00 - [104] Originally by: Whitehound Why did the players not want to train these skills? Because it was obvious that if you wanted to skill faster you had to train them. Emphasis mine. I believe that's why they were removed. I hated the damn things. I had everything trained to 5 except Presence (4). I considered them a necessary evil in order to train the skills needed to use the ships/mods I wanted in the future. They accomplished nothing on their own. They did not immediately advance my gameplay. In fact, while training them, they impeded my gameplay. I had to wait longer to accomplish short-term goals in order to accomplish long-term goals. This does not make for a fun newbie experience. Thus, removal of perceived "required" skills. I'm so happy they're gone. I'm now 5 million sp closer to my goals than I was a couple days ago. The slight hit in sp speed is minor compared to gaining nearly 5 years worth of sp I did want. Vaedon Jack-of-all-trades...Master-of-none
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.16 18:19:00 - [105] Originally by: Vaedon ... Emphasis mine. ... You misskilled. This happens in a lot of games. It does not mean that entire groups of skills need to be removed. But now it happened ... --
Ryhss Caldari Ominous Corp	Posted - 2010.12.16 18:33:00 - [106] At first I was mad about the whole learning skill tree removal. Not emoragequit, but perturbed. Then it happened and it's really not bad.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.16 18:39:00 - [107] Originally by: Whitehound You are so dumb So you have no argument, as usual, since you immediately have to try to go for a personal attack in the vain (failed) hope that someone will accidentally believe your fantasies? Good to know that you still see things my way, even though you don't like it. Quote: Why did the players not want to train these skills? Because they served no gameplay purpose. You know this, stop pretending otherwise. Quote: I really do not know where you always pull your arguments from. Yes you do. That's why you can't argue against them and have to resort to strawmen and personal attacks. For instanceà Quote: And, no, it is not in the tradition of EVE to be a hypocrite. àthis, where you answer something that was never actually said. So I'll repeat: it is in the tradition of EVE to mock people who whine, especially if they whine (from ignorance or due to just misunderstanding the changes) about how their own situation has improved. Quote: Hopefully do we not get to see another change like this one again so that there will always be a direct relationship between the years played and the skill points one has been rewarded with for playing EVE. Now, you do realise that, if anything, you want more changes such as this one if you want to see a direct relationship between years played and number of total skill points, right (and we'll stay away from the issue of why it would matter, since total SP means fsck all)? So which is it? Do you want time played to matter for total SP, or do you not want to see more changes such as this? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ryhss Caldari Ominous Corp	Posted - 2010.12.16 18:39:00 - [108] Originally by: Ryhss At first I was mad about the whole learning skill tree removal. Not emoragequit, but perturbed. Then it happened and it's really not bad. Now, I agree with this guy: Originally by: Caldariftw123 Originally by: Doppleganger Originally by: Durzel Man that loss of 72 SP/hour is going to sting in 8 years time after you've exhausted the free SP you got. I feel your pain bro. 8 yrs isn't out of the realm of possibility many of us have already been playing for 7.5 yrs + You'd have to be playing for more than the same amount of time again, train 100% within your remap and with +5s for that entire time, for the ENTIRE TIME, and never once not ONCE let your training slip, train things out of your attribute spec or have some RL issue that stops you playing (you know, like marriage, kids, lack of job, new job, moving house, etc.etc. all those things that people often do within an 8year span of their lives) - and if you don't do all of this then you will extend that time even longer. ANYONE whining about this is wrong. They are just simply wrong to whine, there's no justification whatsoever. It's absurd.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.16 18:48:00 - [109] Originally by: Tippia Good to know that you still see things my way, even though you don't like it. I would need to be blind to see things your way. When I just see you on the forum quoting each of my sentences, trying to fight them one by one, do I know that I have won over you entirely. You continue to be the biggest troll on EVE's forum. --
raukosen	Posted - 2010.12.16 18:53:00 - [110] Originally by: Caldariftw123 Originally by: Doppleganger Originally by: Durzel Man that loss of 72 SP/hour is going to sting in 8 years time after you've exhausted the free SP you got. I feel your pain bro. 8 yrs isn't out of the realm of possibility many of us have already been playing for 7.5 yrs + You'd have to be playing for more than the same amount of time again, train 100% within your remap and with +5s for that entire time, for the ENTIRE TIME, and never once not ONCE let your training slip, train things out of your attribute spec or have some RL issue that stops you playing (you know, like marriage, kids, lack of job, new job, moving house, etc.etc. all those things that people often do within an 8year span of their lives) - and if you don't do all of this then you will extend that time even longer. ANYONE whining about this is wrong. They are just simply wrong to whine, there's no justification whatsoever. It's absurd. You are right, but even after 8 years when you start to lose out, who the hell said you weren't supposed to? Yes you train slower now STFU and deal with it.
Jii Tral	Posted - 2010.12.16 21:38:00 - [111] Originally by: Shemmy In this bit I bolded and underlined are the contradiction in your quote. And in my view, speaking as someone with comfortably over 100m skillpoints and 5m learning SP's to re-invest, 72 SP an hour, or whatever it is, will not be a noticeable amount. The people who report to have losing days on their training time is pretty noticeable.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.16 21:55:00 - [112] Originally by: Malcanis This reminds me of the bawwing after CCP "nerfed" Stealth Bombers by turning them in to 600 DPS @ 40Km or 300 DPS @ 90Km range covops-cloaked frigates with additional CPU and powergrid. For those of you who weren't there and missed this, I'm not kidding. People were genuinely and non-ironically saying that this was a nerf. Seriously, some people are genuinely only willing to see the negative side of anything. If you made them the Emperor of Jupiter, all they'd do is whine about how long their commute to work was gonna be. and some people still think it was a nerf. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Shemmy 7th Space Cavalry Freemason Core	Posted - 2010.12.16 22:52:00 - [113] Originally by: Jii Tral The people who report to have losing days on their training time is pretty noticeable. It's about 2.8%. It would have to be a 35+ days skill in order for it to take 1 day longer. Unless you are talking about Eve Mon's inability to account for the learning skills and attributes switch, where people saw big jumps in their training times? shrug Seriously, it's clear that people are set in their opinions. To me it's a really positive step, but I've long ago stopped worrying about SP totals and perhaps that's why it matters so little to me.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.16 23:36:00 - [114] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Tippia Good to know that you still see things my way, even though you don't like it. I would need to be blind to see things your way. When I just see you on the forum quoting each of my sentences, trying to fight them one by one, do I know that I have won over you entirely. You continue to be the biggest troll on EVE's forum. Again: Spend 2400 of your reallocated SP per day. You are now training faster than before, for the next six years. If you instead gorge yourself on instant-gratification SP, and then baww about it, there is no hope for you. It's better to get all those months worth of SP at once anyway, from every conceivable standpoint.. Except feeling like you're smart for training learnings to V. No one who trained advanced learnings to V was smart to do so. The only reason people feel butthurt is a logical fallacy. You think those skills were worth more than they were, because you put a lot of time into obtaining them. So, now you're still better off, but you've lost something you feel has value. Hell, training them in the first place is the same fallacy. "It's another month of training to get these, so I'll train SO FAST when they're done!" (That entire extra month yields +1 attribute oh wow.)
Jii Tral	Posted - 2010.12.17 00:31:00 - [115] Originally by: Shemmy Originally by: Jii Tral The people who report to have losing days on their training time is pretty noticeable. It's about 2.8%. It would have to be a 35+ days skill in order for it to take 1 day longer. Unless you are talking about Eve Mon's inability to account for the learning skills and attributes switch, where people saw big jumps in their training times? shrug Seriously, it's clear that people are set in their opinions. To me it's a really positive step, but I've long ago stopped worrying about SP totals and perhaps that's why it matters so little to me. I couldn't really tell you. I didn't train everything to v.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.12.17 01:51:00 - [116] Edited by: De''Veldrin on 17/12/2010 01:51:49 Originally by: Space Pinata Hell, training them in the first place is the same fallacy. "It's another month of training to get these, so I'll train SO FAST when they're done!" (That entire extra month yields +1 attribute oh wow.) That was why I only trained one when there was a noticeable benefit to do so. If Eve HQ said hey I can save you two weeks of training on this skill plan, I trained them. If it was like four hours I didn't bother. The problem is, of course, you will never convince the min/maxers of this. They are too obsessed with the actual numbers to look at the general effects. --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Swidgen	Posted - 2010.12.17 01:59:00 - [117] Originally by: Khalia Nestune The SP in learning was fundamentally useless. It did nothing for your character, except increase the rate at which you trained. So you maxed out learning skills? You had 5.376M (or whatever) useless skill points. Skill points NOT helping you PvE better, PvP better, trade better, build things better, etc. Are you in favor of removing attribute implants from the game too? If not, you're a hypocrite, because all they do is speed up the rate you train at. It's not the end of the world, but removing the learning skills amounts to an SP Welfare program, giving training time boosts to people who didn't earn it and don't deserve it. The only people saying those SP were "useless" are those who didn't have them. Now that they got their gubmint cheese skill training time boost for free the last thing they'll do is listen to the reasons why they're wrong.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.17 02:42:00 - [118] Edited by: Whitehound on 17/12/2010 02:42:33 Originally by: Space Pinata Again: Spend 2400 of your reallocated SP per day. You are now training faster than before, for the next six years. I have already spend time training these skill points, numbnuts. You want to sell them to me again? --
Tasko Pal Spallated Garniferous Schist	Posted - 2010.12.17 02:55:00 - [119] I'm shedding a single perfect tear for the pain these poor people will face in eight years time.
Snowmann	Posted - 2010.12.17 04:19:00 - [120] It's always interesting to see how far someone will go to not admit that they are wrong. Especially when pride gets in the way. A rather desperate display to be honest.
Sergeant Spot Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.17 04:45:00 - [121] I too, had my learning skills all to 5, and am now training slightly slower. I'm not especially concerned about it (yawn.....) I am very happy that new players can now IMMEDIATELY focus on training for their ship flying skills. The fact that I had it rougher merely gives me old fart bragging rights (we had it rough when we were newbies....). Somehow, I think my 100,000,000+ skill points more than make it up for me. Non-issue. Play nice while you butcher each other.
My Postman	Posted - 2010.12.17 10:50:00 - [122] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: My Postman There are the ppl who whined for to years for the removal of learning skills, to speed up their skilling, and now they¦ve won. Yes. They're called CCP. Quote: There are the ppl who maxed out learning skills, you and me, and now we are nerfed. Everyone who has ever trained anything gets nerfed every now and then. So what? Quote: You make a thread about it, and now get flamed by those who actually are skilling faster for free àand also by those who train a tiiiiiny bit slower, but who still understand the vast benefits from the change. Bah, i¦m not arguing with you on this subject, as you "somehow forgot" to answer, when i did the maths with the numbers of the QEN 1/09 (i think) in another thread, where clearly came out that i (and one or two others in this thread) ARE RIGHT!
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.12.17 11:13:00 - [123] Edited by: Space Pinata on 17/12/2010 11:14:54 Quote: It's not the end of the world, but removing the learning skills amounts to an SP Welfare program, giving training time boosts to people who didn't earn it and don't deserve it. People like you are so terrified someone might have a slightly easier time than you are. Buncha leeches on society, people like you actually get -mad- when the world becomes a better place for someone else. "This change is better, but only -I- deserve to have it better!"
Caldari Acolyte	Posted - 2010.12.17 12:26:00 - [124] I for one approve of the changes, we need more 12 Year old's in the game. CCP, we need moar idiot magnets in the game .

CCP StevieSG	Posted - 2010.12.17 12:35:00 - [125] Trolling removed, please keep comments constructive.

Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.17 12:36:00 - [126] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 17/12/2010 02:42:33 Originally by: Space Pinata Again: Spend 2400 of your reallocated SP per day. You are now training faster than before, for the next six years. I have already spend time training these skill points, numbnuts. You want to sell them to me again? So i am again going to ask you, but which you refuse to answer every time: If CCP removes all skills you have, but gives you 100M SP in some newly made completely useless skill, are you then happier than now? Then you have more SP, so that is good, right? Especially since you dont seem to grasp the difference between what the little number says and how much SP you actually effectively have. You will now be ahead of your original training schedule for the next 8 years or something, which part of that is so hard to grasp? I truly wonder if you are a succesful troll or just dumb.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.17 13:01:00 - [127] Originally by: Furb Killer So i am again going to ask you, but which you refuse to answer every time: If CCP removes all skills you have, but gives you 100M SP in some newly made completely useless skill, are you then happier than now? Then you have more SP, so that is good, right? Especially since you dont seem to grasp the difference between what the little number says and how much SP you actually effectively have. You will now be ahead of your original training schedule for the next 8 years or something, which part of that is so hard to grasp? I truly wonder if you are a succesful troll or do you truly not get something this trivial? It is quite the horror scenario you are drawing there. Getting all skills removed and for something completely useless sounds horrible!! You mean like I would try to log into EVE and suddenly find myself in WoW? --
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2010.12.17 13:07:00 - [128] Originally by: Furb Killer do you truly not get something this trivial? This is the point of the thread. The argument over trivial barrier. For some this situation doesn't rate (like me) and for others (the OP) it does. Everyone else, is just trolling. IMNSHO, it's a change. Not a nerf, just a change. With each change someone benefits, someone hurts. I hurt because I did train all learning skills to 5. I benefit, some, by having all those SP I invested into training returned to me PLUS all the extra SP I gained while that investment existed. CCP did not return to me anything I didn't already have, correct. However they did not steal from me anything I didn't already have. The complaint about the lesser sp acquisition speed is complaints about what you think you were entitled to have. Like any corporation CCP has modified your return on investment(s) yet to come. That's all. Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.17 13:11:00 - [129] Originally by: My Postman Bah, i¦m not arguing with you on this subject, as you "somehow forgot" to answer, when i did the maths with the numbers of the QEN 1/09 (i think) in another thread, where clearly came out that i (and one or two others in this thread) ARE RIGHT! Oh? Link? It has been hard to keep track of all the threads, you knowà Originally by: Whitehound It is quite the horror scenario you are drawing there. Getting all skills removed and for something completely useless sounds horrible!! You mean like I would try to log into EVE and suddenly find myself in WoW? Nice attempt dodging the questionà How about a simple "yes" or "no"? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.17 13:14:00 - [130] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: My Postman Bah, i¦m not arguing with you on this subject, as you "somehow forgot" to answer, when i did the maths with the numbers of the QEN 1/09 (i think) in another thread, where clearly came out that i (and one or two others in this thread) ARE RIGHT! Oh? Link? It has been hard to keep track of all the threads, you knowà Originally by: Whitehound It is quite the horror scenario you are drawing there. Getting all skills removed and for something completely useless sounds horrible!! You mean like I would try to log into EVE and suddenly find myself in WoW? Nice attempt dodging the questionà How about a simple "yes" or "no"? I thought it is pretty obvious. You need a direct answer? Let me think again ... all skills removed and replaced by something completely useless ... would I want that .... oh, Tippia. Just GTFO. --
Cathy Drall Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2010.12.17 13:19:00 - [131] Just for the record, I'm training slower now, too. Originally by: Jason1138 I realize its not the end of the world but it would be nice if CCP had listened to the CSM and not penalized us during this change over process I also wondered about the reason why they didn't honour the request 100%.
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2010.12.17 13:21:00 - [132] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Tippia Originally by: My Postman Bah, i¦m not arguing with you on this subject, as you "somehow forgot" to answer, when i did the maths with the numbers of the QEN 1/09 (i think) in another thread, where clearly came out that i (and one or two others in this thread) ARE RIGHT! Oh? Link? It has been hard to keep track of all the threads, you knowà Originally by: Whitehound It is quite the horror scenario you are drawing there. Getting all skills removed and for something completely useless sounds horrible!! You mean like I would try to log into EVE and suddenly find myself in WoW? Nice attempt dodging the questionà How about a simple "yes" or "no"? I thought it is pretty obvious. You need a direct answer? Let me think again ... all skills removed and replaced by something completely useless ... would I want that .... oh, Tippia. Just GTFO. So it's not that you care about how many skillpoints you have, it's that the skillpoints are somewhere useful .. now we get somewhere. Were learning skillpoints useful? Or are they more useful redistributed somewhere else? Now is that usefulness offset completely by a 72sp/hr loss to the point where it's unbearable for you? If you answer these questions like I think you will I have to conclude you are either trolling or deluded. There's really no rationality behind hating this change, it's so overwhelmingly a good thing for this game.
Takashi Amarr	Posted - 2010.12.17 13:24:00 - [133] I'm not to sure why people keep discussing this topic, Whats done is done... How about you suck it up and live with it? 52k SP a month is practically nothing. And you get 5.5mil sp which you can add 52k sp a month if you are REALLY that bothered. I and alot of others are happy with this learning skill removal, alot of people will get more interested in the game as well because they won't have to train the most boring skills in the game. Good riddance.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.17 13:42:00 - [134] Edited by: Whitehound on 17/12/2010 13:43:01 Originally by: Caldariftw123 Were learning skillpoints useful? Yes. I could train faster if I planned ahead. Quote: Or are they more useful redistributed somewhere else? Not if you had planned ahead. Quote: Now is that usefulness offset completely by a 72sp/hr loss to the point where it's unbearable for you? It is only a game. There is nothing unbearable about it. I just like it when a game challenges me to plan ahead. Do you know the story about the ant and the grasshopper? It is always a good thing to make players plan ahead in a game. Btw, not only do I now train a little bit slower, but CCP still owes me the ISKs for the skill books. --
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.17 13:43:00 - [135] Edited by: Tippia on 17/12/2010 13:45:26 Originally by: Whitehound I thought it is pretty obvious. You need a direct answer? Let me think again ... all skills removed and replaced by something completely useless ... would I want that .... oh, Tippia. Just GTFO. Ok. So I take it you don't think the total amount of SP matters, after all. So why are you so angry over having more useful SP all of a sudden, without even increasing your clone cost? Why are you so angry that the time you spent on learning skills paid off (handsomely)? More importantly, since total SP apparently doesn't matter (in spite of previous protestations to that effect) and since useful SP matter more, why are you so angry that you will continue to have more useful SP until you've accumulated (at least) some 200 million more SP ù i.e. until you've already trained half the skills in the game to lvl V? Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: Caldariftw123 Were learning skillpoints useful? Yes. I could train faster if I planned ahead. àand you still can, even when they're gone. So that's not much of a reason to keep them around. Quote: Btw, not only do I now train a little bit slower, but CCP still owes me the ISKs for the skill books. No they don't, because you got exactly what you paid for. You can have that ISK back if you're willing to give back the goodsà Are you? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2010.12.17 13:57:00 - [136] Would the two of you kindly say something other than; Person A: "No, you're wrong" Person B: "No, you're wrong" Person A: "No, you're wrong" Person B: "No, you're wrong" Person A: "No, you're wrong" FFS Get a room. Gets boring hearing the two of you say the same crap over and over. Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame.
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2010.12.17 13:59:00 - [137] Edited by: Caldariftw123 on 17/12/2010 13:59:31 Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 17/12/2010 13:43:01 Originally by: Caldariftw123 Were learning skillpoints useful? Yes. I could train faster if I planned ahead. Quote: Or are they more useful redistributed somewhere else? Not if you had planned ahead. Quote: Now is that usefulness offset completely by a 72sp/hr loss to the point where it's unbearable for you? It is only a game. There is nothing unbearable about it. I just like it when a game challenges me to plan ahead. Do you know the story about the ant and the grasshopper? It is always a good thing to make players plan ahead in a game. Btw, not only do I now train a little bit slower, but CCP still owes me the ISKs for the skill books. lol tell you what petition CCP to have your learning skillpoints removed then you can get your isk back eh? As I figured you are trolling or deluded, "I could train faster if I planned ahead" well use your brain which was so obviously "challenged" by the choice of learning skill training and how HARD it must have been to put into your skill queue and try and figure out if all those useful skillpoints you now have can outweigh the loss of 72 pathetically small skillpoints an hour, and just how long it will take you to start 'losing' out - and by losing out I mean in the smallest, pathetic way possible considering by the time you ARE losing out you will have 200+million skillpoints you complete baby. and shar tegral, this "room" is a thread that noone forces you to read, 2 people can post in it repeatedly for years for all you should care, nobody makes you read it, you silly person.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2010.12.17 14:05:00 - [138] Originally by: Caldariftw123 and shar tegral, this "room" is a thread that noone forces you to read, 2 people can post in it repeatedly for years for all you should care, nobody makes you read it, you silly person. Ad hominem after ad hominem in a ridiculous effort to finally make someone cave in is not the purpose of a forum discussion. But you are right, this thread has had it's useful squeezed out of it by this juvenility. (And I'm the silly one.) PS: Forgive me, I'm allergic to idiocy and it is growing strong here. Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.17 14:07:00 - [139] Originally by: Tippia àand you still can, even when they're gone. So that's not much of a reason to keep them around, and more importantly: since the functionality they were supposed to add is still around after they're gone, it's quite obvious that this functionality was not tied to the learning skills. Their supposed usefulness is entirely replaceable. Quote: Btw, not only do I now train a little bit slower, but CCP still owes me the ISKs for the skill books. No they don't, because you got exactly what you paid for. You can have that ISK back if you're willing to give back the goodsà Are you? The skills are gone and even if I can plan ahead with other things is it a loss and it is certainly not a reason the remove them. More importantly, CCP could have given us the extra attributes and left the learning skills untouched. CCP then took the skills out. What is there to give back when it is was taken from us? Please, if I can have my ISKs back then pay up, Tippia. I doubt you will pay me. It was not your decision after all, but CCP's. --
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2010.12.17 14:07:00 - [140] Edited by: Caldariftw123 on 17/12/2010 14:10:52 Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Caldariftw123 and shar tegral, this "room" is a thread that noone forces you to read, 2 people can post in it repeatedly for years for all you should care, nobody makes you read it, you silly person. Ad hominem after ad hominem in a ridiculous effort to finally make someone cave in is not the purpose of a forum discussion. But you are right, this thread has had it's useful squeezed out of it by this juvenility. (And I'm the silly one.) PS: Forgive me, I'm allergic to idiocy and it is growing strong here. no you Why should I do anything but just call you silly and use "ad hominem" arguments (trying to sound intelligent to rebut me eh) when all you did was come in and say "I hate reading this, ffs get a room" like a child? Nobody forced you to read the thread, yet you felt so overly important that we should concern ourselves that you do not wish to see us debate any longer? Get a grip child.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.17 14:26:00 - [141] Originally by: Whitehound The skills are gone and even if I can plan ahead with other things is it a loss and it is not a reason to remove them. Sure it is. It removes the quintessential problem: the clash between game/meta-game mechanics, and instead separates the two so they don't step on each others' toes while still keeping the key functionality you're after in the game. That's probably the best reason ever to remove something: because you can replace it with something that has the same effect, but which does not cause the same problems. Quote: More importantly, CCP could have given us the extra attributes and leave the learning skills untouched. Not really, no. That would have served a completely different purpose. Quote: CCP then took the skills out. What is there to give back when it is was taken from us? Please, if I can have my ISKs back then pay up, Tippia. I doubt you will pay me. It was not your decision after all, but CCP's. Sure I will. You have lost ~3% training speed. This equates to about one and a half level of Learning. So I'll give you 30% the cost of the Learning skillbook ù 10,500 ISK ù as soon as I get back into the game. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.17 14:29:00 - [142] Originally by: Tippia Sure I will. You have lost ~3% training speed. This equates to about one and a half level of Learning. So I'll give you 30% the cost of the Learning skillbook ù 10,500 ISK ù as soon as I get back into the game. I will ignore the rest of your comment and take the ISKs. Thank you. --
Jennifer Starling Amarr	Posted - 2010.12.17 14:31:00 - [143] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 17/12/2010 14:36:53 Originally by: Whitehound The skills are gone and even if I can plan ahead with other things is it a loss and it is not a reason to remove them. More importantly, CCP could have given us the extra attributes and leave the learning skills untouched. Wait a second .. As in +12 attribute skills plus the extra attributes from learning skills? So we could train at 4,000 SP/hour? That sounds very tempting .....
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.17 14:47:00 - [144] Minus that it wouldnt actually solve the problem.
Ryhss Caldari Ominous Corp	Posted - 2010.12.17 18:48:00 - [145] Originally by: Swidgen Originally by: Khalia Nestune The SP in learning was fundamentally useless. It did nothing for your character, except increase the rate at which you trained. So you maxed out learning skills? You had 5.376M (or whatever) useless skill points. Skill points NOT helping you PvE better, PvP better, trade better, build things better, etc. Are you in favor of removing attribute implants from the game too? If not, you're a hypocrite, because all they do is speed up the rate you train at. It's not the end of the world, but removing the learning skills amounts to an SP Welfare program, giving training time boosts to people who didn't earn it and don't deserve it. The only people saying those SP were "useless" are those who didn't have them. Now that they got their gubmint cheese skill training time boost for free the last thing they'll do is listen to the reasons why they're wrong. Umm, if they didn't have learning skills trained, they didn't get a "gubmint cheese". So they got no boost/bonus.
Syn Callibri Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse Broken Chains Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.17 19:56:00 - [146] Originally by: Jason1138 i went from 32.9 perception with 10% from Learning and +5's to 32.0. Kind of annoying I realize its not the end of the world but it would be nice if CCP had listened to the CSM and not penalized us during this change over process Across the board...compared to everyone else, you are still trianing at the same speed you were. Of course...CCP slowed YOUR training que down just so you could complain on the forums. Commander Tac-Ops
Opertone Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.17 20:30:00 - [147] low level mother-son realationship friends get more happy. Free skills, free attributes, they can be equal today. They celebrate the victory over training times and dedication. Expect trash can alts to become very popular!
Opertone Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.17 20:41:00 - [148] to train Learning skills vs getting profession skills done was a trade off now CCP removed both disparity and decision making, leaving less choice, less diversity and less thinking. Do you really want a simplistic game? Does the challenge need to be taken out? How can having less competitive advantage over other players contribute to PvP element in terms of equal training pace and "guns now vs skillpoints later"
My Postman	Posted - 2010.12.20 11:44:00 - [149] Edited by: My Postman on 20/12/2010 11:54:31 Edited by: My Postman on 20/12/2010 11:52:55 Edited by: My Postman on 20/12/2010 11:46:56 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: My Postman Bah, i¦m not arguing with you on this subject, as you "somehow forgot" to answer, when i did the maths with the numbers of the QEN 1/09 (i think) in another thread, where clearly came out that i (and one or two others in this thread) ARE RIGHT! Oh? Link? It has been hard to keep track of all the threads, you knowà Originally by: Whitehound It is quite the horror scenario you are drawing there. Getting all skills removed and for something completely useless sounds horrible!! You mean like I would try to log into EVE and suddenly find myself in WoW? Nice attempt dodging the questionà How about a simple "yes" or "no"? It is [url=http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1423789[/url] this thread, post 45, dear Tippia! Multiple edits: Can¦t make the link working from this f***ing thin client at work. Damn.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.20 11:57:00 - [150] Originally by: My Postman http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1423789 --
My Postman	Posted - 2010.12.20 15:43:00 - [151] Originally by: Whitehound Originally by: My Postman http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1423789 Thanks! Still at work just looking if Tippia quoting my maths.
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2010.12.20 18:38:00 - [152] Originally by: Harotak It will take EIGHT YEARS before the -52k sp per month you are losing will catch up to the free 5m sp you just received for max learning skills. Just to play Devil's advocate here... The 5 mil SPs people just received for maxed Learning skills aren't free... The players have earned thos SPs already, assigning them forward to compensate for the reduced rate of training they're currently experiencing is actually making them pay for the reduction twice. If you bought an item at a listed price of $100 you'd be slightly annoyed if you were charged $101 for it, you'd probably be furious if, not only taking that additional dollar out of your wallet when you paid for the item the store had then contacted your bank and taken that extra dollar out of your savings account too... I would imagine there would be threads about it, thoughts of litigation, complaints... If suddenly you were earning $52 less a month due to a change in your contract which you had had no say in you'd similarly annoyed, regardless of how much you had in savings. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Snowmann	Posted - 2010.12.20 19:31:00 - [153] Originally by: Jacob Holland The 5 mil SPs people just received for maxed Learning skills aren't free... The players have earned thos SPs already, assigning them forward to compensate for the reduced rate of training they're currently experiencing is actually making them pay for the reduction twice. Those skill points were prevously useless when it comes to in-game mechanics other than skill training. They "could be" now useful, depending how they are spent. They are not paying for the reduction twice. They are getting use out of skill points that were previously useless. This will advance their skill plan by several weeks at least. That advancement counters the reduction in skill training for a period of time.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Amarr Divine Power. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.12.20 19:47:00 - [154] Originally by: Jacob Holland If suddenly you were earning $52 less a month due to a change in your contract which you had had no say in you'd similarly annoyed, regardless of how much you had in savings. Not if I got refunded $300,000 in refunded unused dental insurance payments beforehand.
DR Blues	Posted - 2010.12.20 20:38:00 - [155] Originally by: Snowmann Originally by: Jacob Holland The 5 mil SPs people just received for maxed Learning skills aren't free... The players have earned thos SPs already, assigning them forward to compensate for the reduced rate of training they're currently experiencing is actually making them pay for the reduction twice. Those skill points were prevously useless when it comes to in-game mechanics other than skill training. They "could be" now useful, depending how they are spent. They are not paying for the reduction twice. They are getting use out of skill points that were previously useless. This will advance their skill plan by several weeks at least. That advancement counters the reduction in skill training for a period of time. Learning skillpoints where not useless. They did let me train faster for 5 years. IMHO they where the most important skills 5 years ago for futere planning of your caracter. That 8 years crap also make no sense either. If there where no learning skills in the first place that 5,3M was allready trained in other stuff.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.20 21:05:00 - [156] I'm training faster now. Now go emorage and youtube it for my entertainment.
Snowmann	Posted - 2010.12.20 21:16:00 - [157] Originally by: DR Blues Learning skillpoints where not useless. Relative to in-game items they were compeletely useless. They served no purpose beyond how fast one trained skills. Those useless skill points, relative to in-game items, are no longer completely useless. This advances one's skill plan, relative to in-game items of course, by several months. I realize that some perfectionist will never admit this and are really ****ed that they spent the time training these skills only to be put back in place with the rest of us, but oh well. Sometimes the fruits of your hard labor go poof in the spark of someone else's inspiration, but life goes on.
DR Blues	Posted - 2010.12.20 22:12:00 - [158] Originally by: Snowmann Originally by: DR Blues Learning skillpoints where not useless. Relative to in-game items they were compeletely useless So are cruiser skills if you only want to fly a battleship. still you need them
My Postman	Posted - 2010.12.21 10:49:00 - [159] Originally by: Snowmann Originally by: DR Blues Learning skillpoints where not useless. Relative to in-game items they were compeletely useless. They served no purpose beyond how fast one trained skills. The skill "Engineering" gives you 5% powergrid/lvl. It serves no purpose beyond giving you 5% powergrid/lvl.
Lancezh	Posted - 2010.12.21 10:55:00 - [160] On Topic: This is by far the most stupid argument and high level complaining i've read in ages across alot of games. If that is in your list of discussable concerns i congratulate you to your exquisit Life.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation Hounds of Anarchy	Posted - 2010.12.21 11:53:00 - [161] Originally by: Snowmann Relative to in-game items they were compeletely useless. They served no purpose beyond how fast one trained skills. Relative to this discussion are your arguments completely useless. They serve no purpose beyond trolling. Amidoinitrite? --
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.21 12:38:00 - [162] It takes 8 years before you are behind at your original 8-year training plan. Also please let CCP remove all your SP and dump double that SP in a useless skill, since that is what you want apparently.

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