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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.19 19:12:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Carniflex There is no competition between T2 BPO's and invention. T2 BPO's fill the amount of demand they can and then there is some empty space and then invention is filling that is left after that.
True. But you make it sound as if it's a bad thing. It's not. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.19 20:33:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Brian Ballsack
No need for the sarcasm and arrogance, i can produce more items via invention than one guy can with one BPO, so you are wrong and no amount of maths can prove me otherwise.
You seem to imply that poor BPO owner somehow loses all the remaining slots available to one as soon as he uses the BPO for production. So a T2 producer can make more items with his BPO + n-1 slots left after entering that BPO into production than you. Invented prints have negative PE afterall.
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Carniflex There is no competition between T2 BPO's and invention. T2 BPO's fill the amount of demand they can and then there is some empty space and then invention is filling that is left after that.
True. But you make it sound as if it's a bad thing. It's not.
This is matter of opinion. Some see it as bad thing some dont. I myself dont like T2 BPO's bcos of they were distributed not bcos I would feel strong urge to produce command ships or something else that is not profitable to do so as a result of T2 BPO's.
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Stupid McStupidson
Gallente Hoek Lyne and Sinker
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Posted - 2010.12.19 21:59:00 -
[33]
Throw off the cruel yoke of oppression!
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Kwisat Haderach
Minmatar ReallyPissedOff Guinea Pigs
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Posted - 2010.12.19 22:45:00 -
[34]
I have come here not to sign a petition but to offer you a cookie. Cookie?
Life is a joke, but I don't feel like laughing |
Brian Ballsack
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Posted - 2010.12.19 22:51:00 -
[35]
Quote: You seem to imply that poor BPO owner somehow loses all the remaining slots available to one as soon as he uses the BPO for production. So a T2 producer can make more items with his BPO + n-1 slots left after entering that BPO into production than you. Invented prints have negative PE afterall
So therefor the BPO is irrelevent.
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente Malevolence. Imperial 0rder
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Posted - 2010.12.19 22:56:00 -
[36]
This should be done for the sole reason that the tears and ragequits would be epic ----- Amicus Morte is recruiting. Dive into the world of 0.0 !
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2010.12.20 02:37:00 -
[37]
It seems the Space Randians do not appreciate this suggestion.
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Misty McGinnity
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Posted - 2010.12.20 02:55:00 -
[38]
ITT: Butthurt inventors
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.12.20 03:19:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Carniflex This is matter of opinion. Some see it as bad thing some dont. I myself dont like T2 BPO's bcos of they were distributed not bcos I would feel strong urge to produce command ships or something else that is not profitable to do so as a result of T2 BPO's.
Considering the generally accepted fact that the vast majority of the "relevant" ones have already changed hands since their initial distribution, most likely several times over... how exactly would their removal make anything better ? _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.20 08:14:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Carniflex This is matter of opinion. Some see it as bad thing some dont. I myself dont like T2 BPO's bcos of they were distributed not bcos I would feel strong urge to produce command ships or something else that is not profitable to do so as a result of T2 BPO's.
Considering the generally accepted fact that the vast majority of the "relevant" ones have already changed hands since their initial distribution, most likely several times over... how exactly would their removal make anything better ?
We do not have hard data to back it up either way all we can do is to speculate how many are in the hands of original owners and how many are not.
Afterall regardless of not being anymore fountains of liquid isk they are still pretty decent 'passive' income source if we are talking about "relevant" ones.
Those that have been traded, I'm not convinced that they have been traded with 'clean' isk, considering the relatively irrational amounts of isk involved. Ofc for people that run bots or have used other cheats they are great way of laundering some isk as titans and moms being numerous enough for isk laundering are relatively fresh phenomenon. Yes, there might be honest persons mixed in in the T2 BPO market but I suspect those would be the minority.
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Tozmeister
Digital Fury Corporation Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.12.20 09:26:00 -
[41]
There is hard data. Just go back over the Buy and Sell section of the forums for the past 6+ years.
Add on an arbitrary amount for private trades, say 25%, and you have pretty damn good approximation of the scope of the T2 BPO market even if not an exact figure. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++ |
Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.20 10:15:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Tozmeister There is hard data. Just go back over the Buy and Sell section of the forums for the past 6+ years.
Add on an arbitrary amount for private trades, say 25%, and you have pretty damn good approximation of the scope of the T2 BPO market even if not an exact figure.
You can get number of times a particular type of BPO has been traded in public there, but cant identify in any way if it was the same X prints traded rather frequently over and over again with small interval or were they all unique prints. I myself suspect small number of prints traded frequently in the isk laundering process. To one direction sells with suddently legimatized isk flowing in the direction of 'seller' and shortly thereafter a scam/corp theft/just was floating in this jetcan honestly move of the BPO to another alt of the 'seller' who then sells it again.
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mochavay
Melt's in your Mouth Industries
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Posted - 2010.12.20 12:13:00 -
[43]
OMG another one of these !!!!
what i really wish is that all of the people complaining about the T2 bpo's would have actually been playing back in the day BEFORE invention !! ya the good ole days when the T2 bpo holders made a killing and a half on almost every item . now i don't remember exact numbers (akita might be able to help with that) but i do remember some items having like a 300% markup in them .
and nowadays with wonderful invention it has brought the prices down on them all . so if anyone needs to complain it is the T2 bpo holders not the invention people that have driven the prices down to a competitive value .
and just to clarify i do not and have never owned a T2 bpo !! leave them in the game and keep playing
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Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2010.12.20 12:31:00 -
[44]
As the game population grows the impact of T2 BPO's on EVE's economy shrinks.
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Desigre
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.12.20 13:19:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Nevira Ehilaikinn I'm calling to remove all BPO T2 from EVE. It's unuseful to use invention to produce modules T2 BPC. There is too much difference from production by T2 BPO. The two methods are incompatible inside a free market. I ask to convert all T2 BPO in T2 BPC with 1000 run, and multiply by 10 the runs number of T2 BPC produced by invention.
Sign the calling posting on this topic.
So you still dont know how to do the math on inventing a item then? Bad news is removeing t2 BPO will not help your math skills.
And they are not incombatible in free market. Theyre just different method of produceing item. Im sorry you werent here for T2 BPO lottery and are too dump to make billions needed to buy one. But removeing them dont change any of that.
And no, i dont own any T2 BPO¦s and have no plans to buy one, makeing nice iskies on invention.
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2010.12.20 14:17:00 -
[46]
If it wasn't for those pesky T2 BPO's my golem factory would be making phat lewts --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Nicky's Tomb
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Posted - 2010.12.20 14:36:00 -
[47]
If they don't provide a means to acquire new T2 BPOs, then all T2 BPOs should be removed. IMHO. So I support this. Put everyone on a level playing field otherwise it's a farse.
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Hollow Confrontation
Decepticle Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.20 15:01:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Nicky's Tomb If they don't provide a means to acquire new T2 BPOs, then all T2 BPOs should be removed. IMHO. So I support this. Put everyone on a level playing field otherwise it's a farse.
The damage has already been done, it was the lottery that was the problem. Making T2 bpos go away isn't ever going to change that.
To the OP. Invention isk is good isk, it's just not as good as owning a T2 bpo isk, making money in Eve isn't hard, in fact it's simple, you're just not trying hard enough.
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Brian Ballsack
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Posted - 2010.12.20 15:51:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Hollow Confrontation
Invention isk is good isk, it's just not as good as owning a T2 bpo isk, making money in Eve isn't hard, in fact it's simple, you're just not trying hard enough.
*yawns* as if.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.12.20 15:58:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud As the game population grows the impact of T2 BPO's on EVE's economy shrinks.
As does the fraction of people who hold T2 BPOs, and the portion of people who have no experience w/ them and feel disadvantaged by them grows.
Just sayin'.
*** [ SIG] ***
Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing *Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! [ /sig ] |
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Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
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Posted - 2010.12.20 17:33:00 -
[51]
Using OP's logic:
WAAAA!! I do not own a Ferrari! They should cease production because it is unfair that they cost so much and I cannot afford one! People with Ferraris can get to work so much faster than I can and therefore make more money! WAAAA!
Seriously people... grow the **** up. The only thing wrong with T2 BPOs was the mis-handling of them years ago in the T20 incident. Just like life, EVE IS NOT FAIR! If you think a t2 BPO will give you such a massive advantage over the market, then man up and buy one ffs! But let me give you a hint... the vast majority of T2 BPOs are money sinks, not makers. You can make FAR more T2 via invention than you can with a T2 BPO, but all you see is something you cannot have or cannot afford. Therefore you think it is unfair, just like a 3 year old.
TLDR: nerf ferraris and grow up -----------------------------------
Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
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Lirinas
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Posted - 2010.12.20 20:01:00 -
[52]
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey If it wasn't for those pesky T2 BPO's my golem factory would be making phat lewts
Hopefully you're being sarcastic, as there are no Marauder BPOs. Marauders, Black Ops, and Electronic Attack Frigates were amongst the first ships that were not part of the old T2 lottery and were invention-only.
Now onto other things for those wanting hard data but not knowing where to look aside from the forums. The impact on T2 BPO's on the market was examined last year, in the Q2 2009 Quarterly Report. At that time, about 33% of the total produced Tech 2 goods on the market were made by BPO owners. That report goes into further detail as to the breakdown on T2 BPO's in regards to modules, ships, and ammunition.
Although I have no hard numbers (as I haven't seen this detailed in later reports) I would estimate that the T2 BPO market continues to shrink as more and more people are inventing, and T2 BPO's are slowly lost due to people quitting EVE, or blueprints lost due to destroyed ships during blueprint transport.
There are far bigger issues in EVE that need to be addressed before this issue. The only way I would support the removal of T2 BPO's would be if the entire Industry and Science system was overhauled. We have years of patchwork systems, from Tech 1 to Tech 3, from Mining Veldspar to running Moon Harvesters, from researching a blueprint to inventing a T2 BPC. The entire system could use an overhaul, not just this one facet of it.
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Hephaestus nu
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Posted - 2010.12.20 20:51:00 -
[53]
/me signed
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2010.12.20 20:55:00 -
[54]
This again? It's like the changing of the seasons, regular like clockwork.
I do just fine with invention. You just need to stick to products with enough volume that whatever BPOs happen to be left can't fill the demand. The bigger problem is inventors that sell below value since 'datacores, minerals, and POS fuel are free when you get it yourself,' or the ones that simply bid down the market without ever calculating all of their production costs.
Someone that owns a BPO can make more profit per unit than I do, or they can underbid me if volume is low enough; but they've got a multi-billion isk hole to dig out of, they cannot switch production to a more profitable module as markets evolve, they cannot keep more than one production slot chugging along on a product (without multiple BPOs), and they run the risk of seeing their investment destroyed by having their chosen module nerfed.
If you want to rhetorically whine about how the lottery shouldn't have happened, hell CCP openly agrees with you. But, since that horse has left the barn, the only players you should have any issue with are the ones that won useful BPOs (i.e. the 50mm Armor Plate II & Passive Targeter II BPOs are not making anyone rich), never sold them, and still play the game. How many of those do you think there are?
Every other T2 BPO out there is owned by a player that made an investment and is hoping to see a return on that investment someday. On a good BPO, the ROI is years. On a bad one, the ROI is years after CCP changes something that happens to make that module useful.
In the interest of full disclosure: I don't own a T2 BPO, I've never actually seen a T2 BPO, and I'm not looking to ever buy one.
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Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
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Posted - 2010.12.20 21:58:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow This again? It's like the changing of the seasons, regular like clockwork.
I do just fine with invention. You just need to stick to products with enough volume that whatever BPOs happen to be left can't fill the demand. The bigger problem is inventors that sell below value since 'datacores, minerals, and POS fuel are free when you get it yourself,' or the ones that simply bid down the market without ever calculating all of their production costs.
Someone that owns a BPO can make more profit per unit than I do, or they can underbid me if volume is low enough; but they've got a multi-billion isk hole to dig out of, they cannot switch production to a more profitable module as markets evolve, they cannot keep more than one production slot chugging along on a product (without multiple BPOs), and they run the risk of seeing their investment destroyed by having their chosen module nerfed.
If you want to rhetorically whine about how the lottery shouldn't have happened, hell CCP openly agrees with you. But, since that horse has left the barn, the only players you should have any issue with are the ones that won useful BPOs (i.e. the 50mm Armor Plate II & Passive Targeter II BPOs are not making anyone rich), never sold them, and still play the game. How many of those do you think there are?
Every other T2 BPO out there is owned by a player that made an investment and is hoping to see a return on that investment someday. On a good BPO, the ROI is years. On a bad one, the ROI is years after CCP changes something that happens to make that module useful.
In the interest of full disclosure: I don't own a T2 BPO, I've never actually seen a T2 BPO, and I'm not looking to ever buy one.
And finally someone with a brain chimes in. Invention can be far more profitable than BPO simply for the fact that inventors can produce far MORE than BPO owners. The only people really cleaning up with T2 BPOs are people who are able to fill every build slot they have with a BPO. Of course, very very few people in Eve can claim to be able to do that. After that, if you invent, keep all slots busy (What she said?) and you will make far more ISK with a much smaller investment than BPO owners. -----------------------------------
Originally by: Kali Zero Warp core stabilizers are like condoms. Nice and safe, but they make it a little less fun for everyone involved.
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Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
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Posted - 2010.12.20 22:53:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Lirinas
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey If it wasn't for those pesky T2 BPO's my golem factory would be making phat lewts
Hopefully you're being sarcastic, as there are no Marauder BPOs. Marauders, Black Ops, and Electronic Attack Frigates were amongst the first ships that were not part of the old T2 lottery and were invention-only.
Yes, he is being sarcastic and making an interesting point that most T2 BPO whiners will miss.
You have a natural experiment of what happens when you remove T2 BPOs...or in the case of Marauders, what its like with no T2 BPOs: i.e. there is no sustained increase in the profits for inventors. Given that there is no benefit that will flow directly into the wallets of the inventors, the only remaining objection is really nothing more than envy.
The "extra profits" that T2 BPOs holders are currently holding will return to buyers in the form of increased consumer surplus.
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AstarothPrime
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Posted - 2010.12.21 08:35:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Mr Dilkington
Quote: There is no competition between T2 BPO's and invention. T2 BPO's fill the amount of demand they can and then there is some empty space and then invention is filling that is left after that.
If you are going to type such crap, at least link us to some proof in some way. It is in fact, the other way around to how you describe it, Inventors fill up the majoirty of demand, do you even know how many t2 bpos there are of the good mods that actually sell ? didnt think so, dont post such tripe unless you can back it up.
Actually its like this:
Mods are mostly invented, high end ships are mostly BPO.
Take for example - command ships - if you put it down on paper inventing and producing one makes ~5M loss if you account some 25% invention chance.
Removing T2 BPOs would be unfair to owners, but nerfing them so that invention could prosper even in shipbuilding would be nice. Lets say by working something up about ME and PE
I.
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Daddy's Princess
The Player Haters Corp
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Posted - 2010.12.21 09:04:00 -
[58]
Besides the fact that I think t2 bpo cry babies are just ignorant and refuse to accept their stupidity, I just want to touch on the post above that t2 ship bpos on market are mainly from BPOs and not from invention.
This is quiet incorrect as most ship are from invention simply due to the limited amounts a bpo can produce. If you were around a few years ago you'd know that there were often shortages with good ships and that was with a far lower player base.
What invention is doing is preventing the t2 ships from being sold by BPO owners at much higher margins. The lack of profits is not due to BPO owners but thanks to idiot producers willing to take profits lower than t1 ships or the tards that believe that if they make their own components they are making a profit (why not just sell components for much less effort for the same isk???)
In summary t2 BPO impact is so freaking small it's stupid to complain really. Also, it's just unfortunate that majority of producers (crafters rofl) are just flat out daft. No more polite way of saying it.
T2 BPO whiners:
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Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
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Posted - 2010.12.21 12:00:00 -
[59]
Because whomever has a Javelin M BPO needs to get nerfed even more
You can invent whatever you want, as much as you want. The BPO holder most likely paid billions upon billions to build one thing.
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Kirsi Kirjasto
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Posted - 2010.12.21 14:01:00 -
[60]
Of COURSE T2 BPO's are unbalancing. There are tons of items that are completely unprofitable to manufacture from BPC due to unfair competition from BPOs. Unfortunately, like most handouts, they also have a constituency.
Everytime a person proposes to bring the system back into balance, the peanut gallery of T2 BPO Owners shouts them down, doing their level best to protect their little racket.
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