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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.01.06 13:45:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Confuzer With 1700 orders out I hope they never think I am a bot :P
As for bot traders: when I look at my stats, OrangeFlounder is my number 1 person I buy from in Jita, VERY suspicious.
And seeing the items he is selling, they are from a very WIDE range. Somtimes I come into Jita, buy 10 items at large quantities and look! ALL from OrangeFlouder.
Oracleofjita is at the 2nd place btw, and for him goes exactly the same story. Also sells alot of items, and also is for all items the cheapest when I do a batch buy.
These guys should be looked into... not that they ARE bot traders, but one thing with bot traders: they should be at the top of my buy lists, as are these 2.
When one person buys, another person sells, which could very well mean you are on the top of their seller list ;) .. using your same logic this could very well indicate you are a bot! Or, it could indicate nothing of the kind other than coincidence that you are both in the same markets. Consider you yourself have 1700 orders, and in order to 'spot the bot' you have to be doing the same thing as them ie updating orders frequently, operating in the same markets as them, etc.
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Ludacrys
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Posted - 2011.01.06 13:45:00 -
[62]
Originally by: leocaldari GAME OVER OrangeFlounder/Riseone
oh common! dont leave us in the dark, tell us what happened, this is exciting
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Shiney Buttons
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Posted - 2011.01.06 13:52:00 -
[63]
everyone talks about trading bots... but where do you get one from?
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Confuzer
Volition Cult -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.06 13:54:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Confuzer on 06/01/2011 13:55:52 Edited by: Confuzer on 06/01/2011 13:54:59
Originally by: Caldariftw123
Originally by: Confuzer With 1700 orders out I hope they never think I am a bot :P
As for bot traders: when I look at my stats, OrangeFlounder is my number 1 person I buy from in Jita, VERY suspicious.
And seeing the items he is selling, they are from a very WIDE range. Somtimes I come into Jita, buy 10 items at large quantities and look! ALL from OrangeFlouder.
Oracleofjita is at the 2nd place btw, and for him goes exactly the same story. Also sells alot of items, and also is for all items the cheapest when I do a batch buy.
These guys should be looked into... not that they ARE bot traders, but one thing with bot traders: they should be at the top of my buy lists, as are these 2.
When one person buys, another person sells, which could very well mean you are on the top of their seller list ;) .. using your same logic this could very well indicate you are a bot! Or, it could indicate nothing of the kind other than coincidence that you are both in the same markets. Consider you yourself have 1700 orders, and in order to 'spot the bot' you have to be doing the same thing as them ie updating orders frequently, operating in the same markets as them, etc.
But I am not a bot. What I find suspicious is that in Jita is much competition. While you are updating one order, another gets 0.01's isked. So with a wide random range of buy orders from me, to find them all at 5 seconds interval with buying from the same person is rather, suspicious. And no, I am not working like that. Trust me, you cannot really conclude I am a bot from my behaviour, as it is not and very humanlike. Although sometimes I do find myself a bot when I click around the 5 accounts :P ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
leocaldari
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Posted - 2011.01.06 14:02:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Confuzer Aah, leocaldari is also in my list, but not even in the top 30 ;)
(and these orders are from 2008-01-28 to 2009-03-20)
that is natural.
items I trade have NO other real heavy trader at the same time.
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leocaldari
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Posted - 2011.01.06 14:11:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Ludacrys
Originally by: leocaldari GAME OVER OrangeFlounder/Riseone
oh common! dont leave us in the dark, tell us what happened, this is exciting
I will give you updates but not know
in phase 1: not a complete desaster for him. he sold the last 70 items to somebody who want to have the items
now in phase 2: comments when we we are going into phase 3
GAME OVER does not mean the fight has ended.
just mean with it: OrangeageFlounder cannot made any profit with his 300 items anymore.
my goal is stil to get a profit from him which is > 500mio
my pofit = his lost
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Confuzer
Volition Cult -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.06 14:24:00 -
[67]
But that is one item right?
I can say he is in every T2 item I trade. So one item should mean nothing to him... ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
leocaldari
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Posted - 2011.01.06 14:38:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Confuzer But that is one item right?
I can say he is in every T2 item I trade. So one item should mean nothing to him...
Im not wondering.
I don't knwow any other reason why he can give me 1 to 2 bill ISK every month
funny: my(OrangeFlounder) trading style is fundamental different. that is more than 100% correct
btw: the liason between Orange and me started with a gift of 1.2 billion ISK from him to me as he bought off the complete BZ-5 market
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AnakieNine
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Posted - 2011.01.06 14:58:00 -
[69]
I usually stay away from Jita but I would like thank Oracleofjita too, for the many billions I sucked out of him on a couple of days last year when visiting jita.
A couple of other players that are online who also like to be fleeced in the same way. Guess they are idiots or something? Beefive kayce Ravoc Market Cop Rudo Cop
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Confuzer
Volition Cult -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.06 15:03:00 -
[70]
Hhmm still in Amarr selling ships AnakieNine? ;) ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
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AnakieNine
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Posted - 2011.01.06 15:09:00 -
[71]
A little, but have slowed down a lot the last couple of months. I got to the the 2t mark and decided to take a break.
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.01.06 15:10:00 -
[72]
Originally by: AnakieNine I usually stay away from Jita but I would like thank Oracleofjita too, for the many billions I sucked out of him on a couple of days last year when visiting jita.
A couple of other players that are online who also like to be fleeced in the same way. Guess they are idiots or something? Beefive kayce Ravoc Market Cop Rudo Cop
Ah so I'm not alone in poking Rudo Cop a little? :D
For anyone interested he was heavily involved in Rocket Fuel, that has spiked rather a lot recently btw, and has moved, along with Kayce Ravoc (remember him from the Technetium discussions?) into Robotics.
And to the above guy, I didn't seriously mean you are a bot, but I also meant it's not always so clear who is a bot and who is not. Though I have to admit some of the names in this thread I have thought of as bots before ..
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Confuzer
Volition Cult -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.06 15:56:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Caldariftw123
Originally by: AnakieNine I usually stay away from Jita but I would like thank Oracleofjita too, for the many billions I sucked out of him on a couple of days last year when visiting jita.
A couple of other players that are online who also like to be fleeced in the same way. Guess they are idiots or something? Beefive kayce Ravoc Market Cop Rudo Cop
Ah so I'm not alone in poking Rudo Cop a little? :D
For anyone interested he was heavily involved in Rocket Fuel, that has spiked rather a lot recently btw, and has moved, along with Kayce Ravoc (remember him from the Technetium discussions?) into Robotics.
And to the above guy, I didn't seriously mean you are a bot, but I also meant it's not always so clear who is a bot and who is not. Though I have to admit some of the names in this thread I have thought of as bots before ..
I know you didn't mean I was a bot, I just tried to explain the the typical things of bots are matching with these guys, and I am not matching the typical things as you explained them.
2t? Wow nice... I took a break at 0.3t lol :D ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
leocaldari
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Posted - 2011.01.06 16:32:00 -
[74]
some thoughts about "managing your orders"
max order count: 305 -> you can manage 150 items with ONE BUY and ONE SELL order
so you have to check 300 orders
seconds you need to check/modify ONE order:
01: 300s -> 5m 02: 600s -> 10m 05: 1500s -> 25m 10: 3000s -> 50m 20: 6000s -> 100m -> 1h 40m 30: 9000s -> 150m -> 2h 30m 60: 18000s -> 300m -> 5h
how often can you check/modify all 300 orders in 24h if you are sitting in front of the screen, managing several accounts and traveling cross empire to check all hubs?
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.01.06 16:40:00 -
[75]
Originally by: leocaldari some thoughts about "managing your orders"
seconds you need to check/modify ONE order:
01: 300s -> 5m 02: 600s -> 10m 05: 1500s -> 25m 10: 3000s -> 50m 20: 6000s -> 100m -> 1h 40m 30: 9000s -> 150m -> 2h 30m 60: 18000s -> 300m -> 5h
lol are you kidding? You can update more than one order every five minutes. That five-minute timer is only for changing that same order again. You can continue changing other orders...
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.01.06 16:51:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
Originally by: leocaldari some thoughts about "managing your orders"
seconds you need to check/modify ONE order:
01: 300s -> 5m 02: 600s -> 10m 05: 1500s -> 25m 10: 3000s -> 50m 20: 6000s -> 100m -> 1h 40m 30: 9000s -> 150m -> 2h 30m 60: 18000s -> 300m -> 5h
lol are you kidding? You can update more than one order every five minutes. That five-minute timer is only for changing that same order again. You can continue changing other orders...
He means if it takes you 1 second to update an order and you have 300 orders, it will take you 300 seconds or 5 minutes to update all 300 orders.
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Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming
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Posted - 2011.01.06 16:54:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Caldariftw123
Originally by: AnakieNine I usually stay away from Jita but I would like thank Oracleofjita too, for the many billions I sucked out of him on a couple of days last year when visiting jita.
A couple of other players that are online who also like to be fleeced in the same way. Guess they are idiots or something? Beefive kayce Ravoc Market Cop Rudo Cop
Ah so I'm not alone in poking Rudo Cop a little? :D
For anyone interested he was heavily involved in Rocket Fuel, that has spiked rather a lot recently btw, and has moved, along with Kayce Ravoc (remember him from the Technetium discussions?) into Robotics.
And to the above guy, I didn't seriously mean you are a bot, but I also meant it's not always so clear who is a bot and who is not. Though I have to admit some of the names in this thread I have thought of as bots before ..
Thought that was just me. I recognized an above average number of names as potential bots.
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kyrieee
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.01.06 19:11:00 -
[78]
Originally by: KaarBaak
Originally by: Liberty Eternal Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 02/01/2011 16:08:41
Well the truth is that we are all wearing the shackles of a false value system. Who gets to determine that bots are immoral anyway? It's ironic that we are all using computerised technology to play a game, but have banned computerised technology from making our lives easier in playing that game. Even at the forefront of scientific knolwedge, man remains intellectually stunted by narrow-minded dogma. We punish those who innovate and act logically, because the herd morality dictates it.
I've always thought this a bit ironic as well. In a game involving advanced technology, we're not permitted to use advanced technology to play the game.
KB
It is not strange at all; a game is defined by its rules. We deliberately limit ourself equally and then compare our accomplishments.
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OrangeFlounder
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Posted - 2011.01.06 21:46:00 -
[79]
*sigh*
I'd hoped by sharing a little of what I do and why I might get past these allegations of being a bot.
There are two reasons you will see me in your purchase history more then almost anyone else. It's not rocket science it's just the methods I use. I import a large amount of goods into Jita, and only release them when the buy orders aren't filling up for a while. I figure if I am having trouble buying so is everyone else and sell order competition generally is low.
Second: My 'typical' order is for 100m or more, so I don't have to update every 5 minutes to be on top, only more often then other large traders. Most bots seem to come and go and never really accumulate substantial wealth, so in the big leagues it really is a human dominated game.
Other notes to defend myself with: There are plenty of EULA approved methods for keeping track of other region prices. You don't have to fly around while updating orders to know whats going on in Amarr or wherever.
AnakieNine: I think that list of bots you posted is just one or two people with multiple bots each. Too much similarity in how they trade.
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OrangeFlounder
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Posted - 2011.01.06 22:18:00 -
[80]
Originally by: leocaldari
Originally by: Ludacrys
Originally by: leocaldari GAME OVER OrangeFlounder/Riseone
oh common! dont leave us in the dark, tell us what happened, this is exciting
I will give you updates but not know
in phase 1: not a complete desaster for him. he sold the last 70 items to somebody who want to have the items
now in phase 2: comments when we we are going into phase 3
GAME OVER does not mean the fight has ended.
just mean with it: OrangeageFlounder cannot made any profit with his 300 items anymore.
my goal is stil to get a profit from him which is > 500mio
my pofit = his lost
So far I sold half of my items for a reasonable profit, but Leo has been pretty effective at driving down the price. His method seems to be to undercut with one or two small orders pretty substantially and then back them off after a while if they don't get followed. I do give him credit for being possibly the best at controlling items in Jita that I've had to deal with.
Honestly before this thread I was curious if he was a bot because of the similarity in the way and frequency he trades to the bots AnakieNine mentioned.
But I digress, Right now I can't continue bulk selling my remaining 130 or so Arby Heavies. After buying into the market and moving things up to 15m for a while I knew I had to choose between starving leo for buy orders to keep price up or watch him squeeze margins to nothing. I made the wrong choice and bought 80 units at 14.0-14.5. I bought a lot more then that in the mid 13s though, so the market has a way to go before I take a loss. Following Leos push I decided to just sell and got pretty lucky selling to SpacePope, who sold me the bulk of my inventory for almost 1m less p/u .
So now its time to move on to a different strategy on what to do with my inventory. I have a few methods available, but I'd welcome any (legitimate, viable) suggestions.
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Confuzer
Volition Cult -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.06 22:55:00 -
[81]
Well OrangeFlounder I do give you the benefit of the doubt... but if Eve would like to check, would you cooperate? I would :)... I would like to kill those bot traders out of the game cus that means more profit :P
I forget to mention "gatwtal".
He is the biggest seller to me. But he is in front only because I have logs from him starting in 2007. Maybe he is one of yer alts? ;) ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
TheZealot O0O0O
There's Something About Zealots...
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Posted - 2011.01.06 23:10:00 -
[82]
Dear Traders In MD,
I write to inform you that every trader that is successful or 0.01 ISKs me is a bot.
Sincerely, Every Trader In MD
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OrangeFlounder
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Posted - 2011.01.06 23:15:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Confuzer Well OrangeFlounder I do give you the benefit of the doubt... but if Eve would like to check, would you cooperate? I would :)... I would like to kill those bot traders out of the game cus that means more profit :P
I forget to mention "gatwtal".
He is the biggest seller to me. But he is in front only because I have logs from him starting in 2007. Maybe he is one of yer alts? ;)
With this name getting muddied so much by bot accusations I'm disinclined to reference what character I use when I generally post on these forums, but I have commented on this time and time again and never pass up the opportunity to do so.
Years of playing counter-strike when I was younger tought me that there will always be bots/hacks in any multiplayer game. Successful macro management is in drawing the difficulty line beyond the reach of average players, keeping the macros in very few hands.
The problem is that the features which macros rely upon are also used by players. Click heavy mechanics can always be macro'd but market macros require some way to pull prices from the game. Get rid of the easy access (exports and cache reader) and most bots will just fade away.
The other solution I hear about is to implement some sort of captcha. There are a few problems with this: The majority of the macro issue is mining, so it would have to apply to ships in space as well as the market. Do you want a popup captcha locking you out of controls in the middle of a fight? Or if it did just apply to the market then imagine the rage of the 400k players who don't trade.
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Valhallas
New Eden Robotics
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Posted - 2011.01.06 23:41:00 -
[84]
Originally by: leocaldari
PS3: don't ask me how it is working. that is may secret.
U got any secrets you can tell us in January, may is a long way off
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Confuzer
Volition Cult -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.07 00:08:00 -
[85]
Well a captcha can be nice, but you need to implement it well:
1) A player has issued a check on you, please fill in this captcha. After filling it in, you won't receive this message for an hour
2) We have detected constant use of your account for the past 24 hours. As this is suspicous, we ask you to fill this captcha.
Etc etc... :) ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
AnakieNine
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Posted - 2011.01.07 04:19:00 -
[86]
Originally by: OrangeFlounder
AnakieNine: I think that list of bots you posted is just one or two people with multiple bots each. Too much similarity in how they trade.
yes seems like one maybe two people. I came to that conclusion for slightly different reasons. More from the way they alternate accounts vrs item lines and even double up orders to try and stay under the radar and keep people out. That is IMO ofc. I don't aggressively trade Jita. In the markets I dominated for years I have only once come across a character that I even half felt might have been a bot and that one pretty much 100% verified. So it's not as wide spread as some people believe but they are there. This one was of the owner/user verity imo and it only lasted 3-4 weeks using brute force methods. I stopped trading and took a break. Coincidently this one started 2 days before a u-tube video appeared showing a Market bot in action. I followed it over 100 items. The account may have been banned as it did disappear for a while when it stopped. It hasn't been back in the markets since. Was also a real trader I battled 3+ years ago. Not the same info that appeared around the u-tube video.
@OrangeFlounder - I never seen you as a bot either, but your in different markets. The very few times I have moved into one or two of those items in jita I didn't feel any obvious bot presence. The items I have personally seen you in do work well via the old regional buy and pipe to Jita to sell. I ran a few similar test projects on T2 with ok results on separate accounts. Pretty much was unheeded at the time.
# leocaldari-I followed your abi cruise missile launcher domination with some interest for 3 years now and have often come close to having some fun there. Just for that reason alone. i.e Market domination on one item. :) *Just a check on your style and see if it is as different as you claim. :) The one time I did spend a couple of hours the price went up aggressively and I made a nice short term profit. I didn't have the time to stay in Jita and play the real game. The lower profits ofc made me move back to my more normal active trades away from jita, and just the slow long term trades from jita itself. I thought of removing the profit for a month and see what happened. A fun thing to do to annoy really active traders. :) It is also a good way to learn the real supply and demand of an item at very low to zero cost while not really spending any time actively trading the item.
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leocaldari
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Posted - 2011.01.07 10:36:00 -
[87]
Originally by: OrangeFlounder
So far I sold half of my items for a reasonable profit, but Leo has been pretty effective at driving down the price. His method seems to be to undercut with one or two small orders pretty substantially and then back them off after a while if they don't get followed. I do give him credit for being possibly the best at controlling items in Jita that I've had to deal with.
Honestly before this thread I was curious if he was a bot because of the similarity in the way and frequency he trades to the bots AnakieNine mentioned.
But I digress, Right now I can't continue bulk selling my remaining 130 or so Arby Heavies. After buying into the market and moving things up to 15m for a while I knew I had to choose between starving leo for buy orders to keep price up or watch him squeeze margins to nothing. I made the wrong choice and bought 80 units at 14.0-14.5. I bought a lot more then that in the mid 13s though, so the market has a way to go before I take a loss. Following Leos push I decided to just sell and got pretty lucky selling to SpacePope, who sold me the bulk of my inventory for almost 1m less p/u .
So now its time to move on to a different strategy on what to do with my inventory. I have a few methods available, but I'd welcome any (legitimate, viable) suggestions.
your points are so far correct.
1) since this thread you changed dramatically your activities in all items where I'm invested 2) I thought too you are thinking I'm a bot. 3) your luck to have this stupid trader in teh market. so you don't have a real loss 4) you are still invested in Arbalest Heavy 5) let's play the game and see what will happen.
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Confuzer
Volition Cult -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.01.07 11:26:00 -
[88]
Fun thread :) I have also looked at the youtube video of a market bot trader. It seemed genuine, helas. I think I could also make one, but I will never do that because 1) it gets me banned 2) it's not fair and will ruin the game imho.
[offtopic] Any of you ever heared of THE TERRORIST?
He tried scamming for a few months while buying all items on the market and reputting them at 2bil each so it seemed the normal price. I have made billions alone in days from him, milking him with very high items prices... [/offtopic] ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
Bozenski
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Posted - 2011.01.07 13:09:00 -
[89]
Originally by: KaarBaak
Originally by: Liberty Eternal Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 02/01/2011 16:08:41
Well the truth is that we are all wearing the shackles of a false value system. Who gets to determine that bots are immoral anyway? It's ironic that we are all using computerised technology to play a game, but have banned computerised technology from making our lives easier in playing that game. Even at the forefront of scientific knolwedge, man remains intellectually stunted by narrow-minded dogma. We punish those who innovate and act logically, because the herd morality dictates it.
I've always thought this a bit ironic as well. In a game involving advanced technology, we're not permitted to use advanced technology to play the game.
KB
The thing is, you're not playing the game. The bot is.
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leocaldari
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Posted - 2011.01.07 13:23:00 -
[90]
I found an item with a potential bot(Infinary)
I let you know when the job is done
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