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Playing solo and having fun just not possible?

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Rinkari	Posted - 2011.01.02 23:26:00 - [1] tl;dr version: risk for going into 0.0 space is nearly 100% loss of ship which forces you to take cheapy ship, rewards are lame in comparison because cheapy ships can't fight or mine effectively in 0.0, this encourages solo players to stay in carebearland and makes the game boring for anyone who doesn't want to get obligated to a corp, read some similar threads, they were all older, is my perception correct or am I missing something? Full version: I played Eve years ago and quit after a certain incident, but decided recently to come back. I've always enjoyed the IDEA of MMOs and general and Eve's openness in particular, but I hate having to play games together with other people. The problem I always have with MMOs is that when I join a guild/corp/whatever, I either wind up getting tied up helping noobs and lazy players in the corp all the time or getting stuck doing things the group wants to do instead of what I want to do and I'm too old and too married to get obligated to anything for longer than maybe an hour. So, anyway, I've tried playing Eve solo for awhile and it's pretty easy and brainless if you stay in carebear central, but that also makes it horribly boring. So I decided I'd rig up a cheap ship and try sneaking into 0.0 wormhole space to try and sneak some rare ores. Made sure my I caught a 9k Navitas on the market and slapped some cheap equipment on it, found a WH, snuck in, scanned down a belt, got about 200 m3 of Hemorphite (because the Arknonor is just too damn massive to be worth mining) on two trips. So, feeling ***y, I bought a 250k Iteron, slapped some cheap equipment on it and went back. Lost the Iteron right after it came out of warp at the belt. Somebody had scanned down my ship and was camping the belt for me. I didn't think it was that big of a deal because, honestly, I thought I'd lose the Navitas before I got any ore at all, so I just went back to my Navitas and logged off for awhile. However, when I came back later in the day and decided to go back in with the Navitas, the same guy was still camping the belt hours later*. And that's where I find Eve fails. I got to thinking about it and yea, you CAN sneak into 0.0 space and you CAN sneak out a few ore here and there, but if you take a cheap ship in you can't sneak much of anything. Which is fine, but if you take a big ship in - whether you're talking battleship or barge - you're putting tens of millions of ISK on the line and virtually guaranteeing you'll lose it just to get a few hundred thousand ISK more than you could in carebear space strip mining or running .5+ missions. Obviously it's no secret that CCP forces players in this game toward corps (which pretty much negates the only thing Eve has going for it: openness to make your own way how you want), but I want to play solo AROUND other people, not constantly WITH them. Why is that so much to ask from an MMO? I get that it's "massively multiplayer", but why do I have to always be buddy-buddy with all those other players, why not only play around them in the world they help shape? Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it: Eve forces too many people to stay in carebearland by virtually guaranteeing failure for even attempting to leave it, and that means there's no motivation to ever leave it without joining a corp which either keep large numbers of people in high sec or just leads them to quit without ever trying 0.0. Loners should be able to sneak into 0.0, risk being destroyed, but, when they succeed, get away with some decent loot. As it is now, though, loners can sneak into 0.0, but they either bring a big enough rig to do something fun and profitable and have a 99.999999% chance of being ganked by a corp or they can sneak in with a lesser ship, get away with less loot than if they just stayed in carebear world and have a lower risk of getting ganked. Why not even tthat out some?
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.01.02 23:27:00 - [2] Edited by: Lady Spank on 02/01/2011 23:31:56 You are wrong. EDIT: after reading further than the tl;dr your post shows you are just utterly clueless. Post with your main or STFU.
Rinkari	Posted - 2011.01.02 23:31:00 - [3] Originally by: Lady Spank You are wrong. No, I'm not
Acrior	Posted - 2011.01.02 23:32:00 - [4] ok to prove a point I just bought a firetail, fit with t2/meta 4 stuff and went to ardar got to top belt, had a nice fight with a wolf, went onwards to kourm but had to dock because my pet bird flew on my head so yeah i had fun you? protip: 0.0 isn't the only source of fun and faction frigs are cheap and effective just buy plex if you don't wanna farm, sheez
Jennifer Starling Amarr	Posted - 2011.01.02 23:32:00 - [5] At school they may teach you that space is mostly empty but EVE proves the contrary.
William Cooly Sol Enterprises	Posted - 2011.01.02 23:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Rinkari Originally by: Lady Spank You are wrong. No, I'm not A masterful rebuttal, sir Rinkari. I eagerly await your next proclamation of wisdom. - I troll stupid people.
Acrior	Posted - 2011.01.02 23:40:00 - [7] Originally by: Rinkari Originally by: Lady Spank You are wrong. No, I'm not witty retort
Doddy Burning Vendetta	Posted - 2011.01.02 23:42:00 - [8] Dunno tbh, last few weeks i have been running solo across wh space, 0.0 and lo sec and it has been the most fun i have had for years. If you are prepared to lose ships and have some good banter it can be great. I found basing from a wh with a lo sec static and dropping into a different part of lo sec every day a lot of fun. People who equate making isk with having fun are missing the point tbh. Ninja mining in wormholes with a navitas sounds as much fun as mining can possibly be to me. If there is no danger whats the point ffs.
Rinkari	Posted - 2011.01.02 23:46:00 - [9] Edited by: Rinkari on 02/01/2011 23:46:51 Since it's apparently only going to be fanboys replying to this I'll just say my final peace and let you enjoy your echo chamber: So many people never leave the NPC corps or highsec because Eve is a game for people who want to spend a lot of time doing Group PvP and nothing else. It's not an open-ended game, it doesn't encourage players to be innovative, and it ultimately locks itself into the same old failed grind-and-time tropes of every other MMO out there. And that's why so few people play it and why it will always be relegated to a minority status in the MMO world: it offers nothing new in MMOs and the only thing it claims to be good at - freedom - CCP actively neuters. Oh - and I shouldn't have said "fun". It's not that it wasn't briefly entertaining, the point was that it's unsustainable and will eventually lead to bankruptcy, making it a losing proposition.
Jovan Geldon Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire	Posted - 2011.01.02 23:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Rinkari I hate having to play games together with other people Why the **** are you playing an MMO then? Plenty of single player games out there.

Doddy Burning Vendetta	Posted - 2011.01.02 23:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Rinkari And that's why so few people play it and why it will always be relegated to a minority status in the MMO world: it offers nothing new in MMOs and the only thing it claims to be good at - freedom - CCP actively neuters. Indeed because there are literally hundereds of mmos bigger than eve If you fly through any part of non hi sec space the majority of people are running solo. All ratters are running solo, most plexers, most missioners etc. The only parts of the game which are not done solo or in very small groups are sov warfare, gatecamps and hi end plexes (inc wormhole space). Players in npc corps are a tiny portion of the server population so i don't really know where you are going there.
Sverige Pahis Caldari Random Selection. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2011.01.03 00:09:00 - [12] Blah blah eve's dying blah blah mining in navitas is good blah blah forced to join a corp blah blah forced to play with other humans in an MMO blah blah raging aspie doesn't want ot integrate blah blah make eve open to the mainstream WoW-mongs blah blah
Blacksquirrel	Posted - 2011.01.03 00:35:00 - [13] Quote: Why the **** are you playing an MMO then? Plenty of single player games out there. Yeah this. MMOs involve other people. It's not just "your" game. The word isn't "forced" it's encouraged...you are encouraged to join corps. There's nothing wrong with that either it's a game design...meaning yes that's how they want it. this notion of single playerness in MMOs is getting ridiculous. Why do people believe in such entitlement in an MMO? Accept that MMO's placate to group dynamics!!!
Spurty Caldari V0LTA	Posted - 2011.01.03 00:43:00 - [14] go play homeworld nothing at all should exist in an M M O for solo warriors Hoppit!
BellaDonna Nyghtshade	Posted - 2011.01.03 00:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Spurty go play homeworld nothing at all should exist in an M M O for solo warriors Assinine statement, equally as bad and faulty as the OP's lame assed arguments. There is ALWAYS room for rogues in an MMO. They tend to keep things fresh.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.01.03 00:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Spurty go play homeworld nothing at all should exist in an M M O for solo warriors And yet there IS opportunity for soloing, it's just not for babbies.
Ephemeron The Dirty Dozen	Posted - 2011.01.03 00:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Spurty go play homeworld nothing at all should exist in an M M O for solo warriors it is possible for a game to have well functioning solo and group elements. Indeed that was the case 2 years ago in EVE.
Alt FTW	Posted - 2011.01.03 01:03:00 - [18] Originally by: Blacksquirrel Quote: Why the **** are you playing an MMO then? Plenty of single player games out there. Yeah this. MMOs involve other people. It's not just "your" game. The word isn't "forced" it's encouraged...you are encouraged to join corps. There's nothing wrong with that either it's a game design...meaning yes that's how they want it. this notion of single playerness in MMOs is getting ridiculous. Why do people believe in such entitlement in an MMO? Accept that MMO's placate to group dynamics!!! When oh when are people going to stop repeating this absurd argument? MMO means that you share a gaming universe with other real life players. It doesn't mean at all that that requires necessarily cooperation, especially not in a corp. The fact that CCP hates solo players, and continously tries to force them into corps/alliances, doesn't mean that the premise/concept of EVE is not attractive to solo players. I for one love competing/fighting/sharing the eve universe with other real player, rather than simply the AI. However, I do not care for socialising or making online friendships in corps. There is real life for those things. To the OP: one (I, at least) can still have reasonable fun as a solo player, but it is nowhere near as good as it could be with a few small tweaks. Problem is, CCP has decided that solo players are the scum of the earth, and need to be eliminated at all cost. So don't expect things to get any better.
svetlana Constellation Guard	Posted - 2011.01.03 01:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Rinkari ... found a WH, snuck in, scanned down a belt, got about 200 m3 of Hemorphite ... on two trips. ... Loners should be able to sneak into 0.0, risk being destroyed, but, when they succeed, get away with some decent loot. ... by your own description you were able to successfully acheive your goal 2/3 attempts, which doesn't sound too bad. but isn't it contradictory to complain how repetively boring high sec is when by your own choice you wanted to go to the same belt over and over and over and were upset when suddenly you couldn't? after being successful in one place wouldn't you want to try a different belt or WH to avoid getting discovered? afaik everyone in eve is responsible for making their own fun, or misery. sounds like you had a bit excitement there more than anything, which is good!:)
Spyra Gryra Khanid Provincial Vanguard Black Inquisition	Posted - 2011.01.03 01:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Spurty go play homeworld nothing at all should exist in an M M O for solo warriors And yet there IS opportunity for soloing, it's just not for babbies. Yeah! You gotta be strong and tough and only the best is good enough. My corp and alliance are the very best pvpers in the entire history of video games.

Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.01.03 01:12:00 - [21] Originally by: Spyra Gryra Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Spurty go play homeworld nothing at all should exist in an M M O for solo warriors And yet there IS opportunity for soloing, it's just not for babbies. Yeah! You gotta be strong and tough and only the best is good enough.
Tellenta Gallente Pastry Productions Inc. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2011.01.03 01:15:00 - [22] I tried for a 1 v 1 mackinaw fight today, instead of taking his ice back he relocated further down the ice field. This is further proof that you can not have fun solo in this game. This is rock solid evidence rebuttals are useless as your opinion does not match mine and therefore worthless. I got 27 free ice thingies though and I didn't even have to mine it! awesome.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2011.01.03 01:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Rinkari And that's why so few people play it and why it will always be relegated to a minority status in the MMO world Haha. EVE is the 2nd largest western MMO. Only thing bigger is WoW and those free-to-play asian titles that are the incarnation of grinding. The fact that you can say that EVE doesn't reward innovate gameplay speaks more about what type of a gamer you are. Take some advice, you will never enjoy an MMO if that is how you view EVE. What you need is a themepark MMO that will hold your hand and entertain you, but make it so transparent to you that even after months of playing you still think it's you who's in the drivers seat; such MMOs don't exist. EVE is the closest you will get. Even if you happened to find such an MMO amongst the wast ocean of niche MMOs out there, such games require effort. Something you are clearly not willing or able to put into an MMO. They require you to outdo your fellow players. If you find that the gameplay you enjoy in EVE is not "sustainable", it's because you are not good enough at it, and other players are beating you. That's not to say you are bad, just that others are better; and that is why you see so many people staying in hi-sec. It's not because EVE doesn't reward innovative and out the box thinking, it's because it does and there's not much room at the top.
Feligast Minmatar Intentionally Destructive	Posted - 2011.01.03 01:48:00 - [24] I rate this thread 0/10 And the OP gets AIDS/10 for the troll attempt.
Jaina Sunspot Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2011.01.03 01:55:00 - [25] When I went on a I have to be solo spree I used an Arby for exploration in Low Sec and a second for PVP. It was a lot of fun and in a few months I will have a Pilgrim. I will definitely go on another solo PVE/PVP spree. I can not wait.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2011.01.03 01:55:00 - [26] 2/10 - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Sigma Special Tactics Group Fleet Coordination Coalition	Posted - 2011.01.03 01:59:00 - [27] Not able to solo? Lone wolfing in this game is like a trademark for me. It can be done, and it is being done, every day, by casual players. I have explained how, as have others, numerous times. One thing is admitted: CCP hates lone wolves. But a true player welcomes challenge. That's what the sub fee is for: playing a game. If they want to make the game harder, then bring it. The only way CCP is going to stop the lone wolf is to come up with some mechanic that has a ship self destruct on undock when not in fleet (yes some will cry this is what undocking in 0.0 is like - but that's only if you are dumb enough to dock in the first place). Even then, they will still find a way around it. As for "cheapy" ships - I use a T1 Cyclone for WH and 0.0 deep exploration and using real tactics kept it in one piece for almost 2 years. That ship has earned, at the present hull price I have seen at around 15M ISK each, paid for itself 40 times over plus the rigs and T2 modules (though there is much risk putting that much T2 in a T1 hull - beware). It can be done, and it can be done cheap. This is one of the great things about this game. If you actually take time to think about things, plan ahead, and don't allow yourself to get so self important that possibilities to solve problems become narrowed, you will do better than many of the other players. It's for this feature alone that Eve does not suffer from the "he who has no life and plays 23 hours a day wins" that makes other MMOs, those grindfests that they are, totally pointless.
Drakarin Gallente Absentia Libertas Solus	Posted - 2011.01.03 03:05:00 - [28] Originally by: Blacksquirrel Quote: Why the **** are you playing an MMO then? Plenty of single player games out there. Yeah this. MMOs involve other people. It's not just "your" game. The word isn't "forced" it's encouraged...you are encouraged to join corps. There's nothing wrong with that either it's a game design...meaning yes that's how they want it. this notion of single playerness in MMOs is getting ridiculous. Why do people believe in such entitlement in an MMO? Accept that MMO's placate to group dynamics!!! To be involved in a living, breathing, dynamic universe filled with human beings is awesome. It beats a single player game anyday, as AI cannot come to terms with our unpredictable nature. So, I love MMOs because of their depth, their scope, and their persistance and evolution. I do not play them just to group up with others. The notion that those who enjoy solo play should just go play a single player game is one of a very feable and short-sighted mind.
Blacksquirrel	Posted - 2011.01.03 04:06:00 - [29] Read the very last sentence of what I said... "MMOs placate to group dynamics." This isn't to say "go play a single player game" or people cannot solo....or should not solo. It means that the game is geared more towards group play. It's just focused that way and yes it was intentional.
MiniMatari	Posted - 2011.01.03 04:22:00 - [30] Qoute; "I didn't think it was that big of a deal because, honestly, I thought I'd lose the Navitas before I got any ore at all, so I just went back to my Navitas and logged off for awhile. However, when I came back later in the day and decided to go back in with the Navitas, the same guy was still camping the belt hours later." Heres a really novel idea......stop going back to the same belt! Theres lots of wormholes and 0.0 space is really really big, Be creative, have fun and don't fly what you can't afford to lose.

Rvlxnx Gallente	Posted - 2011.01.03 04:28:00 - [31] Originally by: MiniMatari Qoute; Heres a really novel idea......stop going back to the same belt! Theres lots of wormholes and 0.0 space is really really big, Be creative, have fun and don't fly what you can't afford to lose. ^ this HAVE FUN, GOOD LUCK, FLY WELL, FLY SAFE!
Xzar Fyrarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.01.03 04:32:00 - [32] What. ------------------------------------------------ One Cannot Fully Appreciate Peace Until They Have Experienced True Pain. ------------------------------------------------- - Xzar Fyrarr ;
Seul Manus	Posted - 2011.01.03 17:22:00 - [33] Edited by: Seul Manus on 03/01/2011 17:25:57 Here my 2 isk worth to all the worthy replies. A Navitas is if you read the description is classified as a trader ship for beginner traders, so why didn't you do some trading, quicker then sitting in a belt, and safer as well in a quick in and out trip with some goods that are in high demand. As for soloing, I don't really play the game enough to get involved with a corp, so I by choice play solo, and to amuse myself, and to have a structure to my Eve play I have a 13 phase Eve career plan, and each phase has several goals to go for, be it earning n amount of isk before I move on to the next phase, there are 10 security sectors in Eve, so in 10 phases is to slowly move out from the secure areas one sector at a time to the un secure areas, after the goal I have set myself for each phase is met. The game is what you make it, and the risks are of your own decession to make, you can be in a corp,and go into 00 and the lot of you can be podded, and boom goes your expensive ship, along with all the others. On the other hand you go into 00 in a capable ship able to defend itself, and don't go looking for trouble, as you out think the other players, thats what scanners are for, to see which area to avoid as you might be on a trading run, and making isk is more important then getting into something that will cost you your ship and cargo. But having a capable ship your ship can defend itself if you get attacked. He/she who turns and runs away, will live to fight another day. The advertising of Eve says that our in game actions can have a ripple effect across Eve, so if you are soloing in 00,and when attacked by a small corp fleet and you ship is able to pod your attackers you could inadvertantly have set up a chain of events that changes the layout of that 00 system. CCP may hate soloing, but if they change the nature of Eve to stop it they can kiss my ass and subscription goodbye.
Otto Toten Minmatar The Real OC Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2011.01.03 17:40:00 - [34] Seul Manus CCP may hate soloing, but if they change the nature of Eve to stop it they can kiss my ass and subscription goodbye. 1+
M'pact Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2011.01.03 19:32:00 - [35] CCP makes it difficult to solo in EVE because it should be more difficult to solo. Not impossible, just more difficult. Rinkari -- if you go to a wormhole system and somebody is actively defending it, it's time to find a different wormhole system. Or maybe talk with the guys who live there and see if you can strike a deal. Also, it is entirely possible to live the solo life while in a corp. It requires tolerance from the corp higher-ups though. One of my other characters lived in null-sec for about nine months. The first five months I pretty much did whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted. I set up my own POS to research BPOs and manufacture stuff. I did lots of solo roams and hunted neutrals that flew through our space. I ratted and mined and camped bubbles. During this whole time, most of the rest of the corp was at war in another region. I did eventually join them in the war effort and had a hell of a lot of fun for those last four months. ----- Marcel "M'pact" Paquet Greater impact than a planet-killing asteroid strike.
Alt FTW	Posted - 2011.01.03 19:44:00 - [36] Edited by: Alt FTW on 03/01/2011 19:44:55 Originally by: M'pact CCP makes it difficult to solo in EVE because it should be more difficult to solo. Not impossible, just more difficult. Obviously it is, and should be, more difficult to solo. No one disputes that. The problem is that CCP not only seems exclusively interested in corps/alliances (and hates players going solo), but they even actively discourage solo play. Incursion is a good (or bad, rather) example. Solo can still be fun, but it is increasingly limited by the non-sandbox approach that CCP takes in this matter. Ironically, in the long run, this will negatively affect coproration/soial players as well, as it limits everyone's options in the end. Oh, and: Seul Manus CCP may hate soloing, but if they change the nature of Eve to stop it they can kiss my ass and subscription goodbye. 1+
Doddy Burning Vendetta	Posted - 2011.01.03 20:00:00 - [37] Originally by: Alt FTW The problem is that CCP not only seems exclusively interested in corps/alliances (and hates players going solo), but they even actively discourage solo play. Incursion is a good (or bad, rather) example. Solo can still be fun, but it is increasingly limited by the non-sandbox approach that CCP takes in this matter. So you are saying ccp hate solo play when 90% of the content of the game since its creation have been designed for solo play? Before the advent of wormholes the only pve content in the game designed for group play was 10/10 plexes which you might need 3 or 4 people for. CCP finally introduce some group pve content (and pre-nerfs its rewards) and people say its an attack on solo play In pvp the only possible way to actively support solo play by ccp would be to impose limits, which would destroy the sandbox. The tendancy to blobs is entirely down to the players.
Drakarin Gallente Absentia Libertas Solus	Posted - 2011.01.03 20:05:00 - [38] Originally by: Doddy Originally by: Alt FTW The problem is that CCP not only seems exclusively interested in corps/alliances (and hates players going solo), but they even actively discourage solo play. Incursion is a good (or bad, rather) example. Solo can still be fun, but it is increasingly limited by the non-sandbox approach that CCP takes in this matter. So you are saying ccp hate solo play when 90% of the content of the game since its creation have been designed for solo play? Before the advent of wormholes the only pve content in the game designed for group play was 10/10 plexes which you might need 3 or 4 people for. CCP finally introduce some group pve content (and pre-nerfs its rewards) and people say its an attack on solo play In pvp the only possible way to actively support solo play by ccp would be to impose limits, which would destroy the sandbox. The tendancy to blobs is entirely down to the players. I don't think CCP much enjoys the PvE side of the game, so it's no surprise it's almost all solo. PvP is the opposite. They love it, and that's what their game is really based around. That's fine, but I'm firmly in the belief that you can incorporate good group dynamics while still encouraging players to solo as well. It doesn't have to be one or the other, but it is right now.
Turgesson	Posted - 2011.01.03 20:15:00 - [39] I don't know what the hell everyone else read but what i got was: Navatis + Iteron + Wormhole + Married + Old + Attention span that doesn't last more than an hour = Can't solo outside high sec. Well, using that math I think he's right. Please CCP fix it so old, married guys with ADD can shoot the expensive rocks?
Alt FTW	Posted - 2011.01.03 20:23:00 - [40] Edited by: Alt FTW on 03/01/2011 20:23:52 Originally by: Doddy So you are saying ccp hate solo play when 90% of the content of the game since its creation have been designed for solo play? Before the advent of wormholes the only pve content in the game designed for group play was 10/10 plexes which you might need 3 or 4 people for. CCP finally introduce some group pve content (and pre-nerfs its rewards) and people say its an attack on solo play In pvp the only possible way to actively support solo play by ccp would be to impose limits, which would destroy the sandbox. The tendancy to blobs is entirely down to the players. Sandbox by definition is solo, unless you actively discourage it. Obviously, forming groups in sandbox makes you stronger, and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is that CCP are actively going against sandbox (solo) play, and Incursion was only an example. There are many other PvE examples(moving all L5 missions, and many L4, to losec, for example); Dominion was an expansion focussed on alliance politics/warfare; PI, although you can do it solo, made especially sense for larger losec and 0.0 alliances, especially when Dust kicks in. Solo PvP is becoming increasingly difficult and tedious (see other threads), etc. etc. Now, obviously life is easier in a group. That's how it should be. But CCP is not only uninterested in solo players, they are even discouraged. And that ****ess off many players I've met in New Eden.

Doddy Burning Vendetta	Posted - 2011.01.03 20:29:00 - [41] Originally by: Drakarin PvP is the opposite. They love it, and that's what their game is really based around. That's fine, but I'm firmly in the belief that you can incorporate good group dynamics while still encouraging players to solo as well. It doesn't have to be one or the other, but it is right now. The closer to a sandbox a game is the more difficult solo play becomes as essentially more people is always better for anything. There are a few things they could do to at least make it fair. If they were to remove local for example. And have less bottlenecks. As it is you are flat out wrong about there being no solo play, people solo all the time. Going through lo sec you generally have 4 or 5 encounters with a single player for every blob you run into. Running around hi sec with a war dec on you are more likely to meet a single opponent than a blob unless you jump into amarr or jita. Jumping into hostile 0.0 you will generally find a solo enemy before a blob unless you are stupid enough to jump into a camp on a bottleneck. Basically if you aren't trying to take sov, kill structures, kill wts in a hub system or jumping into a bottleneck you can solo just fine.
Scorpionidae	Posted - 2011.01.03 20:34:00 - [42] I only read the title but I can most def say playing solo is very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very fun. Scorpionidae
Turgesson	Posted - 2011.01.03 20:41:00 - [43] Originally by: Alt FTW Sandbox by definition is solo, A sandbox is not solo......it's just a box filled with sand. And usually a hard spot where some kid's diaper leaked some sh!t out.
Doddy Burning Vendetta	Posted - 2011.01.03 20:46:00 - [44] Originally by: Alt FTW Edited by: Alt FTW on 03/01/2011 20:23:52 Originally by: Doddy So you are saying ccp hate solo play when 90% of the content of the game since its creation have been designed for solo play? Before the advent of wormholes the only pve content in the game designed for group play was 10/10 plexes which you might need 3 or 4 people for. CCP finally introduce some group pve content (and pre-nerfs its rewards) and people say its an attack on solo play In pvp the only possible way to actively support solo play by ccp would be to impose limits, which would destroy the sandbox. The tendancy to blobs is entirely down to the players. Sandbox by definition is solo, unless you actively discourage it. Obviously, forming groups in sandbox makes you stronger, and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is that CCP are actively going against sandbox (solo) play, and Incursion was only an example. There are many other PvE examples(moving all L5 missions, and many L4, to losec, for example); Dominion was an expansion focussed on alliance politics/warfare; PI, although you can do it solo, made especially sense for larger losec and 0.0 alliances, especially when Dust kicks in. Solo PvP is becoming increasingly difficult and tedious (see other threads), etc. etc. Now, obviously life is easier in a group. That's how it should be. But CCP is not only uninterested in solo players, they are even discouraged. And that **ess off many players I've met in New Eden. How on earth is sandbox solo? You have no idea what it means do you. Sandbox is no restrictions. Without restrictions players will always group up as without restrictions 2 players will always be better than 1. By defination group play will always be preferred in a sandbox. So in the eve sandbox a solo player can create a corp, create an alliance with that corp, claim sov with that alliance, build an outpost in that sov. As it is a sandbox he has to compete with groups of players (like 1000 man alliances)who have grouped up to do that and will obviously lose - because its a sandbox. If it wasn't a sandbox there would be some limitation which stops more players being better, such having an area where only 1 man alliances could claim sov (bloody stupid and not what eve is about). Similarly a player can fit a pvp ship, fly it anywhere valid (would be anywhere if it was a real sandbox btw) and attack anyone. Of course if the person he attacks has 100 mates he will lose - because its a sandbox**. The only way he wouldn't would be if there was some limitation which stops more players being better, like 1v1 pvp flagging or instanced battlezones (bloody stupid and not what eve is about). you see a pattern here. The only thing ccp have ever done which breached the sandbox (well other than logistics ships/mods i guess) in preference to group-play is the forthcoming incursions, which artificially fixes rewards to fleet size. This is also stupid and not what eve is about.
Ryhss Caldari 42nd Airborn	Posted - 2011.01.03 20:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Rinkari tl;dr version: risk for going into 0.0 space is nearly 100% loss of ship which forces you to take cheapy ship, rewards are lame in comparison because cheapy ships can't fight or mine effectively in 0.0, this encourages solo players to stay in carebearland and makes the game boring for anyone who doesn't want to get obligated to a corp, read some similar threads, they were all older, is my perception correct or am I missing something? Full version: I played Eve years ago and quit after a certain incident, but decided recently to come back. I've always enjoyed the IDEA of MMOs and general and Eve's openness in particular, but I hate having to play games together with other people. The problem I always have with MMOs is that when I join a guild/corp/whatever, I either wind up getting tied up helping noobs and lazy players in the corp all the time or getting stuck doing things the group wants to do instead of what I want to do and I'm too old and too married to get obligated to anything for longer than maybe an hour. So, anyway, I've tried playing Eve solo for awhile and it's pretty easy and brainless if you stay in carebear central, but that also makes it horribly boring. So I decided I'd rig up a cheap ship and try sneaking into 0.0 wormhole space to try and sneak some rare ores. Made sure my I caught a 9k Navitas on the market and slapped some cheap equipment on it, found a WH, snuck in, scanned down a belt, got about 200 m3 of Hemorphite (because the Arknonor is just too damn massive to be worth mining) on two trips. So, feeling ***y, I bought a 250k Iteron, slapped some cheap equipment on it and went back. Lost the Iteron right after it came out of warp at the belt. Somebody had scanned down my ship and was camping the belt for me. I didn't think it was that big of a deal because, honestly, I thought I'd lose the Navitas before I got any ore at all, so I just went back to my Navitas and logged off for awhile. However, when I came back later in the day and decided to go back in with the Navitas, the same guy was still camping the belt hours later*. And that's where I find Eve fails. I got to thinking about it and yea, you CAN sneak into 0.0 space and you CAN sneak out a few ore here and there, but if you take a cheap ship in you can't sneak much of anything. Which is fine, but if you take a big ship in - whether you're talking battleship or barge - you're putting tens of millions of ISK on the line and virtually guaranteeing you'll lose it just to get a few hundred thousand ISK more than you could in carebear space strip mining or running .5+ missions. Obviously it's no secret that CCP forces players in this game toward corps (which pretty much negates the only thing Eve has going for it: openness to make your own way how you want), but I want to play solo AROUND other people, not constantly WITH them. Why is that so much to ask from an MMO? I get that it's "massively multiplayer", but why do I have to always be buddy-buddy with all those other players, why not only play around them in the world they help shape? Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it: Eve forces too many people to stay in carebearland by virtually guaranteeing failure for even attempting to leave it, and that means there's no motivation to ever leave it without joining a corp which either keep large numbers of people in high sec or just leads them to quit without ever trying 0.0. Loners should be able to sneak into 0.0, risk being destroyed, but, when they succeed, get away with some decent loot. As it is now, though, loners can sneak into 0.0, but they either bring a big enough rig to do something fun and profitable and have a 99.999999% chance of being ganked by a corp or they can sneak in with a lesser ship, get away with less loot than if they just stayed in carebear world and have a lower risk of getting ganked. Why not even tthat out some? I like the cut of your jib. I feel the same way.
Alt FTW	Posted - 2011.01.03 21:00:00 - [46] Edited by: Alt FTW on 03/01/2011 21:02:23 Edited by: Alt FTW on 03/01/2011 21:01:18 Originally by: Doddy How on earth is sandbox solo? Let me clarify: what I meant by that is that sandbox is, as you say, without limititations or rules. As a consequence, each individual has a wide range of options to choose from (starting as a solo player). It may be in the interest of the solo player to then form groups (numbers makes you stronger), and no longer play solo. But in sandbox that should be a natural choice, not one actively encouraged by CCP. By encouraging corps/alliances, CCP is moving away from sandbox. By the way, I have no problem being killed in PvP because I came across a group of players. As a solo player, you're of course weaker. But that natural disadvantage of a solo player should not be exacerbated by active CCP policies to make it even more difficult.
Saji'us Gallente Pitch Black.	Posted - 2011.01.03 21:12:00 - [47] Quote: Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it: Eve forces too many people to stay in carebearland by virtually guaranteeing failure for even attempting to leave it, and that means there's no motivation to ever leave it without joining a corp which either keep large numbers of people in high sec or just leads them to quit without ever trying 0.0. Loners should be able to sneak into 0.0, risk being destroyed, but, when they succeed, get away with some decent loot. As it is now, though, loners can sneak into 0.0, but they either bring a big enough rig to do something fun and profitable and have a 99.999999% chance of being ganked by a corp or they can sneak in with a lesser ship, get away with less loot than if they just stayed in carebear world and have a lower risk of getting ganked. Why not even tthat out some? Low-Sec Solo Exploration: Pilgrim with a Cloak + probe launcher + Drones + Codebreaker&Analyzer = Solo exploration boat that can avoid gate camps and hack/tank/analyze any low-sec profession site. (Been doing this for years) 0.0 T3 Nulified&Covert fit T3 = Solo 0.0 boat that can avoid BUBBLE camps, and still tank/crack/analyze any 0.0 profession site & even some higher-end plex's. Solo PVE isnt dead. You have to think outside the box man.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2011.01.03 21:17:00 - [48] Originally by: Alt FTW active CCP policies to make it even more difficult. Exactly which policies are these?
Learol	Posted - 2011.01.03 21:20:00 - [49] I think your problem is with your mentality, and your binary assumption that there is only IN CORP and SOLO. You donÆt have to join a corp to run with people, you just have to get lucky and run into a gang in lowsec who answer comms and donÆt shoot you on sight, itÆs possible, honest.
Solenopsis	Posted - 2011.01.03 21:28:00 - [50] Originally by: Turgesson I don't know what the hell everyone else read but what i got was: Navatis + Iteron + Wormhole + Married + Old + Attention span that doesn't last more than an hour = Can't solo outside high sec. Well, using that math I think he's right. Please CCP fix it so old, married guys with ADD can shoot the expensive rocks? +1 Dude, That was some funny a$$ $hit. Literally spit coke out on my screen.

Daesis Wrack The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost	Posted - 2011.01.03 21:39:00 - [51] Playing solo and having fun is certainly possible. However, going on a mining op in an occupied wormhole with no idea how to scout that wormhole isn't a very good idea, regardless of how many people you have with you. You didn't get killed because soloing is impossible, you got killed because you have no idea what you're doing.
TimMc Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2011.01.03 21:43:00 - [52] 1/10 Even I can solo and I am terribad. And btw there are corps for people like you, people who are married and limited game time. Go look them up on recruitment forum.
Misstress Iteron	Posted - 2011.01.03 21:51:00 - [53] Solo joy. We have no idea how he did it but as you can see solo play is happening right now
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire	Posted - 2011.01.03 23:23:00 - [54] Originally by: Lady Spank Edited by: Lady Spank on 02/01/2011 23:31:56 You are wrong. EDIT: after reading further than the tl;dr your post shows you are just utterly clueless. Post with your main or STFU. seeing one way and accusing everybody of being wrong. Can you not force your opinion onto him? If you can't understand other people thoughts, why do you judge them?
Tellenta Gallente Pastry Productions Inc. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2011.01.03 23:46:00 - [55] Originally by: Skex Relbore Originally by: Alt FTW active CCP policies to make it even more difficult. Exactly which policies are these? The one where they threaten to break in to your house and kneecap you if you play for another minute solo. They cut the big toes off a friend of mine for mining ice semi-afk, he tried to prosecute but the judge threw it out because it's part of the EULA.
Delianora	Posted - 2011.01.04 00:15:00 - [56] I dont really reply to forum posts anymore but this troll was just too trolly! After making 100billion isk solo, I don't really play that much anymore...after 200 billion isk I realized how easy this game is and got some friends just to see what the big deal is... Years later I finally found a great group of people that let me fly solo and do what I want under the general umbrella of what the FC or alliance leader wants... Having rogue solo pilots, actually, is the best thing a FC wants on an extended campaign... 1) no voice, so you are flying solo with a mission like interdiction, cloaking, roaming etc 2) because of number 1, you are never spied out--not even your FC knows what you are doing on a day to day basis as u just do the priority mission 3) you get some blue status for chilling 4) you play solo, dont have to gang up or fleet up... As for making isk, you can make billions without botting easy... even solo... Here is one example, just probe out the medium pith boosters in low sec caldari sites or even the 4/10 gurista sites in hi sec... I dunno WHY ud mine in WH as those are now the most DANGEROUS places to play... OP said he was gone for a while but he prob didnt realize that WHs are filled with massive squads of cloaking t3 gank squads that make it highly lethal... These people travel 20-30 WHs a nite looking for targets... Anyway I cant be bothered to type in SWE anymore either but I hope the OP decides to "go solo" for real next time and not quit...
Doddy Burning Vendetta	Posted - 2011.01.04 00:24:00 - [57] Originally by: Alt FTW Edited by: Alt FTW on 03/01/2011 21:02:23 Edited by: Alt FTW on 03/01/2011 21:01:18 Originally by: Doddy How on earth is sandbox solo? Let me clarify: what I meant by that is that sandbox is, as you say, without limititations or rules. As a consequence, each individual has a wide range of options to choose from (starting as a solo player). It may be in the interest of the solo player to then form groups (numbers makes you stronger), and no longer play solo. But in sandbox that should be a natural choice, not one actively encouraged by CCP. By encouraging corps/alliances, CCP is moving away from sandbox. By the way, I have no problem being killed in PvP because I came across a group of players. As a solo player, you're of course weaker. But that natural disadvantage of a solo player should not be exacerbated by active CCP policies to make it even more difficult. But what exactly has ccp changed that actively worked against solo pvp players? Nothing. I don't see these policies, they are all just the same as they were at the start of eve. Its simply that the players themselves have come more and more together which is a natural result of the sandbox (this is human nature and why we are succesful as a species). What you are actually saying is that ccp should break the sandbox to prevent people being as effective working together.
Drakarin Gallente Absentia Libertas Solus	Posted - 2011.01.04 00:47:00 - [58] Originally by: Doddy Originally by: Alt FTW Edited by: Alt FTW on 03/01/2011 20:23:52 Originally by: Doddy So you are saying ccp hate solo play when 90% of the content of the game since its creation have been designed for solo play? Before the advent of wormholes the only pve content in the game designed for group play was 10/10 plexes which you might need 3 or 4 people for. CCP finally introduce some group pve content (and pre-nerfs its rewards) and people say its an attack on solo play In pvp the only possible way to actively support solo play by ccp would be to impose limits, which would destroy the sandbox. The tendancy to blobs is entirely down to the players. Sandbox by definition is solo, unless you actively discourage it. Obviously, forming groups in sandbox makes you stronger, and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is that CCP are actively going against sandbox (solo) play, and Incursion was only an example. There are many other PvE examples(moving all L5 missions, and many L4, to losec, for example); Dominion was an expansion focussed on alliance politics/warfare; PI, although you can do it solo, made especially sense for larger losec and 0.0 alliances, especially when Dust kicks in. Solo PvP is becoming increasingly difficult and tedious (see other threads), etc. etc. Now, obviously life is easier in a group. That's how it should be. But CCP is not only uninterested in solo players, they are even discouraged. And that **ess off many players I've met in New Eden. How on earth is sandbox solo? You have no idea what it means do you. Sandbox is no restrictions. Without restrictions players will always group up as without restrictions 2 players will always be better than 1. By defination group play will always be preferred in a sandbox. So in the eve sandbox a solo player can create a corp, create an alliance with that corp, claim sov with that alliance, build an outpost in that sov. As it is a sandbox he has to compete with groups of players (like 1000 man alliances)who have grouped up to do that and will obviously lose - because its a sandbox. If it wasn't a sandbox there would be some limitation which stops more players being better, such having an area where only 1 man alliances could claim sov (bloody stupid and not what eve is about). Similarly a player can fit a pvp ship, fly it anywhere valid (would be anywhere if it was a real sandbox btw) and attack anyone. Of course if the person he attacks has 100 mates he will lose - because its a sandbox**. The only way he wouldn't would be if there was some limitation which stops more players being better, like 1v1 pvp flagging or instanced battlezones (bloody stupid and not what eve is about). you see a pattern here. The only thing ccp have ever done which breached the sandbox (well other than logistics ships/mods i guess) in preference to group-play is the forthcoming incursions, which artificially fixes rewards to fleet size. This is also stupid and not what eve is about. Remote repairing. Fleet bonuses. Gang warfare links. ECM. Nano nerf. CCP does not like solo players. You're right about the sandbox element meaning more is better, but CCP adds salt to the wound.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.04 00:58:00 - [59] Originally by: Drakarin Remote repairing. Fleet bonuses. Gang warfare links. ECM. Nano nerf. CCP does not like solo players. You're right about the sandbox element meaning more is better, but CCP adds salt to the wound. Get a bomber, fill it with ammo and go roam around in 0.0 for a week or two. Its great fun.
Ephemeron The Dirty Dozen	Posted - 2011.01.04 01:01:00 - [60] Edited by: Ephemeron on 04/01/2011 01:03:55 Quote: Remote repairing. Fleet bonuses. Gang warfare links. ECM. Nano nerf. CCP does not like solo players. You're right about the sandbox element meaning more is better, but CCP adds salt to the wound. It's also important to note that high defense/offense ratio is discouraging solo and promoting blobbing. I explained it many times before, and it should be fairly strait forward to understand, by applying game theory. But in layman's terms - you need more people to kill effectively, and people will always do what is effective. And stronger defense allows the fight to drag longer, allowing more people to arrive to the fight before it ends, thus accumulating blobs (typically 1 sided). It's worth noting that over the years, CCP gradually increased the defense/offense ratio. Aside from the big 50% HP buff in 2005, there were other significant shifts in the ratio due to: ) boosters - almost entirely defensive in nature ) rigs - extremely favorable to defense, while very weak and very discouraging on offense (10% damage boost for 200 calib!) ) faction mods - very favorable to defense, allowing you to double or even triple (shield tank) your defense, while faction offensive mods barely give you a couple % advantage. (large guns/launchers and smartbombs are exception - but they are extremely rare) ) logistics - good way to significantly boost your fleet defenses, there's nothing like that for offensive power - short of tracking links, but that's barely a few % advantage in killing power. So yea, the trend has been set since the release of the game and have held firm.

Doddy Burning Vendetta	Posted - 2011.01.04 01:08:00 - [61] Edited by: Doddy on 04/01/2011 01:17:07 Originally by: Drakarin Remote repairing. Fleet bonuses. Gang warfare links. ECM. Nano nerf. CCP does not like solo players. You're right about the sandbox element meaning more is better, but CCP adds salt to the wound. So you mean we should all just have dps and local reps and 1v1? I don't get it. Apart from anything else ECM is a useful tool for solo players, nanos were terrible for solo players (a solo nano couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag whilst a solo non-nano couldn't touch a group of nanos), fleet bonus's and gang links boost a solo player as well, remote reps are great for repping your drones. All of these things have been in game for a long time (since the start for some of them), so how can they be ccp moving away from solo play? Does this mean that any mmo which contains the possibility of any remote healing or debuffs is anti-solo? You haven't mentioned the things which actually do hurt solo play which are Capitals/supercaps HP buff Local Passive sheild tanks Local Jump bridges Bottlenecks local neutral RR Local alts
Kanexus	Posted - 2011.01.04 01:11:00 - [62] my friend just recently subscribed back to eve after hearing me talk about fleets, ratting,PI, etc but he wont join a corp whatsoever....i invited him to the corp public and all he does is talk to them...he is currently mining in a retriever and he thinks omg i actually have isk now but the thing is he is scared to join 0.0....i ask him so when u thinkin bout joining he says not yet...been this way for like a month...and now he logs on less and less...since he only missions and mines he is getting bored...but refuses to go to 0.0 and join our corp...weird huh
Zaerlorth Maelkor The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.04 01:19:00 - [63] Thing OP doesn't realize is that whatever you do in EVE, you are always competing with other humans, not the brainless AI you mist encounter here and there. You have to prepare yourself and outthink those whom you are competing with. If this isn't something you want to do, then as others have suggested: Homeworld -> However, you might want to consider a few things, first of all; I now have one of those annoying sigs. second; you should probably move on to some more interesting things than reading this sig.
Alt FTW	Posted - 2011.01.04 01:51:00 - [64] Originally by: Zaerlorth Maelkor Thing OP doesn't realize is that whatever you do in EVE, you are always competing with other humans, not the brainless AI you mist encounter here and there. You have to prepare yourself and outthink those whom you are competing with. If this isn't something you want to do, then as others have suggested: Homeworld -> It seems to me that the OP actually relishes the competition with other humans. The problem is CCPs attempts to force cooperation. Intelligent competition is a very good thing, as Im sure the OP would agree.
Misanthra	Posted - 2011.01.04 02:01:00 - [65] Originally by: Turgesson Well, using that math I think he's right. Please CCP fix it so old, married guys with ADD can shoot the expensive rocks? They did....its called sites. Ninjya ops (mining, ratting, take your pick) and sites....perfect together. They have to find you, in a combat ship with no bonuses....added time to sneak a quicky in. OP had a lazy hunter who sat and looked for easy kills. Find some nice site as far away as possible from his new friend with some d-scan spamming just in case they moved to look for him...could get some rock "safely" then go back into the hole he used. Seen daytrippers from holes do this all then time (they stand out in 0.0...not the usual alliance members, pets, pets of pets, etc you see roaming everyday). Coming from WH space this should be second nature since no local there and you get carpel tunnel from d-scan spam from what I hear if done right. The troll factor is high with this one...or OP just been really friggin lucky using wh's.
William Cooly Sol Enterprises	Posted - 2011.01.04 02:14:00 - [66] Edited by: William Cooly on 04/01/2011 02:15:09 Hello. - I troll stupid people.
Chelone Junkyard Gunners	Posted - 2011.01.04 04:08:00 - [67] OP: sounds about right. WH = PvP heaven / gankville, solo = dead You can sneak into many 0.0 areas with enough patience and/or an alt scout though. I've done it a lot. Use lasers so you don't need ammo. Nothing stops you, the single player from running 2 accounts. Can pay for them with Plex. As for whether 0.0 ratting is better than highsec stuff... jury is out on that one.
Ronald Raygunn	Posted - 2011.01.04 05:45:00 - [68] Originally by: Spyra Gryra Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Spurty go play homeworld nothing at all should exist in an M M O for solo warriors And yet there IS opportunity for soloing, it's just not for babbies. Yeah! You gotta be strong and tough and only the best is good enough. And by best, we mean picking fights that we are sure to win! Yeah!
Radix Salvilines The Gummy Bears Blue Meanies	Posted - 2011.01.04 14:58:00 - [69] This: Originally by: Rinkari I either wind up getting tied up helping noobs and lazy players in the corp all the time or getting stuck doing things the group wants to do instead of what I want to do and I'm too old and too married to get obligated to anything for longer than maybe an hour. and this: Originally by: Rinkari I want to play solo AROUND other people, not constantly WITH them. You're not alone. I get the same thing here. After many corps I ended up in my own corp with some old buddies with a little more time coming and going (migrating to other corps for fun and back when they have enough). There are some people that like playing MMO - to be surrounded by other players, but not necessairly to play with them as Rinkari said. Everyone likes something else. I think the op's point is not to completely change EVE to promote only solo-play style but to create more options for solo-players (just some - to keep us happy - we know it is a game for corporations). Anyways... /signed
Lubomir Penev Sausages of Truth	Posted - 2011.01.04 15:00:00 - [70] Originally by: Rinkari when I came back later in the day and decided to go back in with the Navitas, the same guy was still camping the belt hours later. It looks like at least him managed to be solo and successful... There are no macrominers in EVE

Desya Dak'ann Caldari All Saints Syndicate Resonance Cascade Scenario	Posted - 2011.01.04 16:51:00 - [71] Quote: Quote: virtually guaranteeing failure for even attempting to leave it ok...if its virtually impossible to leave "carebear central" then how did all the alliances get to 0.0 in the first place. MMOs are about teamwork, but not all the time, why dont you join a 0.0 corp. You never have to help noobs and you only ever have to go on CTAs every week or so. So stop moaning, and stop staring at asteroids THIS IS NOW A WIDOT FAILTHREAD!


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