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Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
319
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Off grid boosting should not exist
From the CSM meeting minutes. I wholeheartedly approve of this zero tollerance approach. The off grid boosting alts are nervous though. We see them on the forums now posting suggestions on how to "balance" off grid boosting, on how to reach a "reasonable compromise", how off grid boosting is "good for the game" or "good for CCP" and other sorts of amusing rationalizations. It's reminiscient of the panic caused by the Falcon ECM range reduction and gives us insight into human psychology.
Anyway, I'm here to take a closer look at some of the rationalizations. There are roughly:
1st argument: "If off grid boosting is no longer possible, then small gangs won't have gang links anymore."
No ****, they were designed to be that way. Bringing a fully fledged fleet booster only makes sense for gangs of a certain size.
Besides stating the obvious, command ships can easily fit a gang link while maintaing good combat strength. You'll just have to make some choices.
2nd argument: "Removing off grid boosting will hurt solo and small gang pvp."
The existence of off grid boosting divides the playing field into two groups: those who have an off grid booster and those who don't. The first group is massively advantaged. This is not good for the health of solo and small gang PvP.
Removing the advantage will level the playing field and allow more players to compete on even ground (and that's precisely what some of these off grid boosting alts are afraid of).
3rd argument: "Off grid boosting is good for CCP's wallet"
First, let's put this into perspective: this is thinly disguised and selfish "I'll quit if you nerf my off grid boosting alt" blackmailing.
For us players who don't have access to CCP's statistics, it's impossible to know whether this will harm or benefit subscription numbers.
That said, I doubt that the type of player keeping an off grid boosting alt will stop using a second account. They want every advantage they can get, and even with off grid boosting removed, there are so many ways a second account remains useful. Personally I'm convinced that in the long term, it will be an extremely positive change for the game.
4th argument: Off grid boosting is not wrong per se
Off grid boosters directly influence the outcome of a battle without ever being present on grid. Every other ship in EVE must be present on grid to do the same (the one exception are fighters, but they can be shot down). Off grid boosting is clearly outside of the normal combat paradigm. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1480
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
off grid boosting alts should be the communal portapotty of the EVE community. |

Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 09:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
While I'm all for removing off-grid gang links it would have to be preceded by balancing the different command ships first. The Damnation can get a whole lot more EHP than the Vulture and while I fly Amarr that still not "fair". Amat victoria curam. |

Whadafool
Universal Might
21
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 09:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
you have my sword...... i mean yeah i agree Free EvE wallpapers
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=110114 |

Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1054
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
1st argument: "If off grid boosting is no longer possible, then small gangs won't have gang links anymore."
No ****, they were designed to be that way. Bringing a fully fledged fleet booster only makes sense for gangs of a certain size.
Besides stating the obvious, command ships can easily fit a gang link while maintaing good combat strength. You'll just have to make some choices.
Mr. Yamamoto, promoting blobbing since 2012
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |

Togg Bott
One Clone Gang
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
agreed the whiners..ooops PRO-OFF GRID supporters are making the exact same arguments that the falcon alt pilots and the nano pilots made.
and yes i DO fly command ships..be on grid or not be effective. |

Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
319
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Roime wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:
1st argument: "If off grid boosting is no longer possible, then small gangs won't have gang links anymore."
No ****, they were designed to be that way. Bringing a fully fledged fleet booster only makes sense for gangs of a certain size.
Besides stating the obvious, command ships can easily fit a gang link while maintaing good combat strength. You'll just have to make some choices.
Mr. Yamamoto, promoting blobbing since 2012
Just a variation of the "off grid boosting is good for small gangs" delusion.
What really promotes blobbing is the ****** attitude of being averse to combat on an even playing field. That's the same motivation that drives people to use off grid boosting too.
So yes, I have no doubt that some players who are incapable of adapting will resort to blobbing when they can't get an advantage through their off grid boosting alts anymore.
The rest will just adapt and get over it. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |

Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:What really promotes blobbing is the ****** attitude of being averse to combat on an even playing field.
Strategically, the playing field is even by definition. Tactically, an "even" field is an error.
That said, off-grid effects shouldn't exist. But that's got nothing to do with "fair" or "even". |

Cadfael Maelgwyn
Immortals of New Eden Rebel Alliance of New Eden
119
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yes, off-grid fleet boosting should be removed.
But the different command ships do need to be balanced.
Just look at the fitting issues with the Nighthawk. |

Jack Murdoc
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
It's easy, really. Change the price, and rebalance the command ships accordingly. Make it cheaper than a T2 cruiser hull, reduce their defensive capabilies and make them decent offensive ships with on-grid boosting capabilities far better than BC's. |

Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1055
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Contrary to the common belief, blobs (which by definition is any gang that is +1 pilot bigger than your own) are actually born from large organisations. Would you split your forces, if you had 50 guys on tap every night? Or enjoy the success and power that numbers bring? Do you really demand they display ehonoure and ballsyness by purposefully risking getting blobbed, when they have the option to counterblob?
A is a 200-man alliance, and they want to go out for some pew with their matesmatesmates. After 1.5 hours of desperate efforts of forming up, their fleet is 15 pilots, 20 Guardians and a couple of fleet command ships.
B is a 10-man corp, who have been roaming around all this time in their 6-guy "fleet", happily pewing their space enemies in similar gangs, supported by an OGB alt played by the FC who also triples as the scout and logii.
A & B meet, B are happy to engage as the links will improve their chances to get some kills and not get instapwned by the A blob.
Remove OGB, and the engagement never happens, because now the blob not only has the numbers, but also the boosts, until in 2014 when B have finally caved in and joined a large blobiance so they can blob against other blobs, because blobbing is the only way to blob and not get blobbed in EVE Blobline, because it's good game design to increase the blob superiority by making links viable only for blobs.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |

Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
321
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Roime wrote:A is a 200-man alliance, and they want to go out for some pew with their matesmatesmates. After 1.5 hours of desperate efforts of forming up, their fleet is 15 pilots, 20 Guardians and a couple of fleet command ships.
B is a 10-man corp, who have been roaming around all this time in their 6-guy "fleet", happily pewing their space enemies in similar gangs, supported by an OGB alt played by the FC who also triples as the scout and logii.
A & B meet, B are happy to engage as the links will improve their chances to get some kills and not get instapwned by the A blob.
And C decides to blob because it stands no chance against B otherwise, while D decides it would rather stay docked. This is why B has no choice but to engage A because other targets are scarce.
It's the same bullshit as with Falcon alts. Everybody had to have a Falcon alt because everbody else had a Falcon alt. The Falcon alt apologists used the exact same justification too "we need it to fight the blob!". An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9099
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Boosting alts, pffGǪ
Real pilots have 15M leadership SP on their mains.  GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1046
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
I agree, offgrid boosting is a bad mechanic. But your rationale against the 2nd argument is flawed...
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Anyway, I'm here to take a closer look at some of the rationalizations. There are roughly:
2nd argument: "Removing off grid boosting will hurt solo and small gang pvp."
The existence of off grid boosting divides the playing field into two groups: those who have an off grid booster and those who don't. The first group is massively advantaged. This is not good for the health of solo and small gang PvP.
Removing the advantage will level the playing field and allow more players to compete on even ground (and that's precisely what some of these off grid boosting alts are afraid of).
The existance of Falcons divides the playing field into two groups... The existance of RR divides the playing field into two groups...
Most specialty ships divide the field into the haves and have nots, if one side "haves not". The side that doesn't have the specialty ships relied on poor intel when they engaged.
The only thing that will allow small gangs to compete on a level playing field would be 2 opposing FCs looking for good fights instead of just hunting, or some sort of arena setting.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |

Azrin Stella Oerndotte
The Nommo
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Why not just make off grid gang links ineffective? That way the whole fleet boost chain won't be disrupted because one wing commander or squad leader is off grid due to split fleet or whatever. |

Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
322
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:I agree, offgrid boosting is a bad mechanic. But your rationale against the 2nd argument is flawed...
The existance of Falcons divides the playing field into two groups... The existance of RR divides the playing field into two groups...
Most specialty ships divide the field into the haves and have nots, if one side "haves not". The side that doesn't have the specialty ships relied on poor intel when they engaged.
I think you're wrong in making this comparison. Recons and logistics actually need to be piloted to be effective. An off-grid fleet booster is more like a passive bonus. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |

Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 12:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
Why not instead of nerfing off-grid boosting, increase the incentive to put them on-grid?
Take the Damnation for an example: Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Assault Missile and Heavy Missile velocity and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level
Command Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to armor hitpoints 3% bonus to effectiveness of Armored Warfare Links per level 4% bonus to effectiveness of Armored Warfare Links per level for ships on the same field of play(aka grid)
Role Bonus: 99% reduction in Warfare Link module CPU need. Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously. |

Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1055
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Roime wrote:A is a 200-man alliance, and they want to go out for some pew with their matesmatesmates. After 1.5 hours of desperate efforts of forming up, their fleet is 15 pilots, 20 Guardians and a couple of fleet command ships.
B is a 10-man corp, who have been roaming around all this time in their 6-guy "fleet", happily pewing their space enemies in similar gangs, supported by an OGB alt played by the FC who also triples as the scout and logii.
A & B meet, B are happy to engage as the links will improve their chances to get some kills and not get instapwned by the A blob.
And C decides to blob because it stands no chance against B otherwise, while D decides it would rather stay docked than fight B. This is why B has no choice but to engage blobs because other targets are scarce. It's the same bullshit as with Falcon alts. Everybody had to have a Falcon alt because everbody else had a Falcon alt. The Falcon alt apologists used the exact same justification too "we need it to fight the blob!".
C "blobs" (remember the first rule, +1 fleet size is always a blob) because they while they have only 10 more members in corp, they are thriving with high motivation and participation level, are organized enough to be able to form the fleet quickly and have inspiring FCs. Obviously they can't just leave 15 random guys docked up because fleet A is smaller.
D stays docked because while of similar size, a major chunk of them are in a different timezone, including their logis and FCs.
Alternatively, C are failfaggots and D cowards. It's always your own fleet that is just the right size, right  Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |

Cadfael Maelgwyn
Immortals of New Eden Rebel Alliance of New Eden
122
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jack Murdoc wrote:It's easy, really. Change the price, and rebalance the command ships accordingly. Make it cheaper than a T2 cruiser hull, reduce their defensive capabilies and make them decent offensive ships with on-grid boosting capabilities far better than BC's. I think you're taking the exact wrong approach.
Command ships should be super tanky, have decent firepower, and boost.
That way they can actually survive being shot at, since they're definitely the next target after ECM and Logi. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9103
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote:Why not instead of nerfing off-grid boosting, increase the incentive to put them on-grid? Because between choosing to risk losing the ship and its fleet-wide benefits (for a damnation, that can easily equate to millions of HP on the field across even a small subcap fleet) and not having those benefits go away three seconds into the fight, anyone with a bit of sense will choose the latter.
You'll have to take into consideration that these are prime targets that will be evaporated once the numbers go up. The on-grid benefits would have to be ridiculously large to outweigh that and that completely breaks them at the lower-end of the fleet size spectrum. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|

Sheynan
Lighting the blight
35
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Caldari 5 wrote:Why not instead of nerfing off-grid boosting, increase the incentive to put them on-grid? Because between choosing to risk losing the ship and its fleet-wide benefits (for a damnation, that can easily equate to millions of HP on the field across even a small subcap fleet) and not having those benefits go away three seconds into the fight, anyone with a bit of sense will choose the latter. You'll have to take into consideration that these are prime targets that will be evaporated once the numbers go up. The on-grid benefits would have to be ridiculously large to outweigh that and that completely breaks them at the lower-end of the fleet size spectrum. brain-barf edit: GǪin fact, in a sense, if you'd want to go that way, the solution would probably have to be rather backwards: you reduce the boost they give overall so that losing one won't make that much difference, but then we immediately go into Gǣso why bring one?Gǥ territory. I suppose you could fix that issue by making them generally appealing to fly for anyone, even the fleet CSes, so that the actual boosters can hide in the crowd of all those other people flying the same ship, only those others have filled up all their highs with tons of weaponry instead of command modules.
I think you are too much focused on actual command ships to do the job.
EVE allows fleet boosts to be fitted on: tier1/2 BCs, CSs, T3s, Carriers and Titans.
If a fleet is that large that they have to fear having their booster exploded instantely, then maybe they should go with less, but safer boosts p.ex on capitals, or better hidden boosts (Try finding the 3 boosting drakes or the boosting T3 in a pile of several hundred without metagaming). The choices are already present in the game, people just don't want to accept the downsides. Or you could always bring more commandships than the enemy can destroy in reasonable time.
P.S: The same goes for small gangs, if you don't want to risk a T3/CS then boost from a standard BC, get half the boni and be happy with that. |

Sarik Olecar
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
148
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
+1 Go big or go home. |

feihcsiM
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
I fully support this initiative to have rorquals sat on-grid in belts with mining ships.  It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. |

Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sheynan wrote:Tippia wrote:Caldari 5 wrote:Why not instead of nerfing off-grid boosting, increase the incentive to put them on-grid? Because between choosing to risk losing the ship and its fleet-wide benefits (for a damnation, that can easily equate to millions of HP on the field across even a small subcap fleet) and not having those benefits go away three seconds into the fight, anyone with a bit of sense will choose the latter. You'll have to take into consideration that these are prime targets that will be evaporated once the numbers go up. The on-grid benefits would have to be ridiculously large to outweigh that and that completely breaks them at the lower-end of the fleet size spectrum. brain-barf edit: GǪin fact, in a sense, if you'd want to go that way, the solution would probably have to be rather backwards: you reduce the boost they give overall so that losing one won't make that much difference, but then we immediately go into Gǣso why bring one?Gǥ territory. I suppose you could fix that issue by making them generally appealing to fly for anyone, even the fleet CSes, so that the actual boosters can hide in the crowd of all those other people flying the same ship, only those others have filled up all their highs with tons of weaponry instead of command modules. I think you are too much focused on actual command ships to do the job. EVE allows fleet boosts to be fitted on: tier1/2 BCs, CSs, T3s, Carriers and Titans. If a fleet is that large that they have to fear having their booster exploded instantely, then maybe they should go with less, but safer boosts p.ex on capitals, or better hidden boosts (Try finding the 3 boosting drakes or the boosting T3 in a pile of several hundred without metagaming). The choices are already present in the game, people just don't want to accept the downsides. Or you could always bring more commandships than the enemy can destroy in reasonable time. P.S: The same goes for small gangs, if you don't want to risk a T3/CS then boost from a standard BC, get half the boni and be happy with that. In that case why not make the change on the Modules themselves? 2% command Bonus is current, make is 3% for on Grid, and if you really want to nerf the off grid, reduce the standard off grid to 1% |

Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
383
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
which ever way you slice it boosting alts needing to be on grid means a decent number of accounts not being paid any more.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |

Medarr
ZeroSec
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Offgrid boosters... wait werent those them expensive ships sitting by their onesy off grid somewhere in a place they thought was safe?... |

jimmy alt
Creative Export Black Pearl Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
My Rorqual is an off gride booster. So don't touch nothing basterds. |

Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
166
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:46:00 -
[28] - Quote
jimmy alt wrote:My Rorqual is an off gride booster. So don't touch nothing basterds.
Oh come on... that is an exploit pactically, your Rorqual (and my Orca) should LOVE being on grid!... I mean they are fast, agile, well armed mining battleships of awesome power...Just let a on-grid hot-drop try to take them down...Muhahah... never, we are invincible!

Look at all the Macks in local...impressive... very impressive... I see you have fashioned a new exhumer... much like you father's... your skills as a miner are now complete...indeed you are powerful as CCP Devs have foreseen... |

Rroff
The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
The way to go about this isn't to just kill off-grid boosting overnight - anyone who actually knows anything about boosting wouldn't even think to suggest this - I'm not gonna waste time going into the complex details as most of the opponents to off-grid boosting aren't interested in that and just want something gone that they don't have the ingenuity to deal with and/or don't want to have to put the effort in to fight at the same level.
What CCP should do is put some work in to making on-grid boosting more attractive and move the focus away from off-grid boosting over time. I quite enjoy flying my eos as part of a fleet on grid but its far from ideal and only really feasible with a bit of luck in what you go up against and being a bit creative with the fit. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9108
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sheynan wrote:I think you are too much focused on actual command ships to do the job.
EVE allows fleet boosts to be fitted on: tier1/2 BCs, CSs, T3s, Carriers and Titans.
If a fleet is that large that they have to fear having their booster exploded instantely, then maybe they should go with less, but safer boosts p.ex on capitals, or better hidden boosts (Try finding the 3 boosting drakes or the boosting T3 in a pile of several hundred without metagaming). The choices are already present in the game, people just don't want to accept the downsides. Or you could always bring more commandships than the enemy can destroy in reasonable time. Sure. That's certainly one way of doing it, but you'll also lose out on breadth of bonuses if you do that, so the less-bonus bit hits twice. You'd have to waste an awful amount of fitting space to get more than one command mod on those other ship, so you'll get maybe one or two bonuses out of every boosterGǪ and you run out of booster slots fairly quickly.
I suppose it's a bit less of a problem for T3s since you can squeeze some pretty silly fitting space out of those if you play around a bit, but smaller gangs would struggle.
GǪand anyway, fleet CSes could use a boost regardless, the poor things.  GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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