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So, when is it actually griefing?

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Lady Skank Ban Evasion inc	Posted - 2011.01.11 12:27:00 - [61] Originally by: Major MouseTrap Well the op is kinda right new laws are going on the books every week.Some states, like Wisconsin, have both a bullying law (which recently passed) and separate statutes regulating telephones and other forms of electronic communication. Specifically, in Wisconsin it is a misdemeanor crime to threaten to ôinflict injury or personal harmö through the use of e-mail or another computerized communication system. It is also illegal to harass, annoy, or otherwise offend another person electronically. Each state is different with respect to the extent that they specifically address electronic forms of harassment. Educators, parents, and law enforcement officers need to be sure to carefully review and understand the statutes in their own state to understand the formal legal implications of participating in cyberbullying. More than 35 states have anti-bullying laws specifically mandating school districts adopt anti-bullying policies. And 15 states now have some type of cyberbullying law on the books, and another seven with pending legislation before their state legislators. Missouri and California have passed the strongest laws protecting victims of cyberbullying while handing down the harshest punishment to the cyber-bully. Each year more and more states are passing laws protecting children and adults alike from these types of attacks. Federal Cyberbullying Laws On April 2, 2009, a federal level bill addressing cyberbullying was placed before the House of Representatives titled the "Megan Meier Cyberbullying Prevention Act" (Bill H.R. 1966). The Megan Meier case caused law enforcement, parents and advocates to realize that in some cases adults were perpetrating some of the crimes, which may allow some jurisdictions to look at cyberbullying as a form of child abuse when an underage minor is involved None of this applies to a game, what will people do when they lose a game of chess? call the police because they are being bullied? as long as its game related the courts will do nothing so losing an Internet spaceship gives no grounds for a prosecution neither will calling somebody a Gallente pig. Telling somebody that you will come and kill them and burn down their house or forcing somebody to hand over virtual property by making real life threats to a persons safety would but that's a different kettle of fish and something that CCP would deal with as well.
Pookie McPook	Posted - 2011.01.11 12:59:00 - [62] Seriously, does this "Wiyrkomi Excavations" bunch even know what game they're playing? Why on earth would they believe that CCP would be remotely interested in a petition about being wardecced "against their will"? Why indeed would the OP think that it warranted confirming on the forums however. ----- Marmite. Rocket fuel of champions.
Darius Falc Gallente Dark Harlequins Fear.	Posted - 2011.01.11 13:30:00 - [63] Being a pirate and someone who spends most of my EvE life in low sec nicking things off the poor unfortunates dumb enough to fly haulers through low sec un-scouted, this topic interests me. For what it's worth, here is my halfpenny's worth. In low-sec this is a cut and dried case. If you're in low sec and you don't have the skills to protect yourself then anything that happens to you once or repeatedly is entirely your own fault. You were told it was unsafe before you jumped in and in your greater wisdom you still decided to do so. In High-sec this is harder. As an alliance we've just war decced a corporation largely because one of their members was a potty mouth when we blew up his hauler in low sec. Now they're a mining corp...they don't really stand a chance and have spent most of their time hiding in stations. Is this griefing? In the first instance I'd say no because we had a legitimate reason for declaring war on them....but say we continued at war with them until they were forced to disband? I think my answer would still be no because there was legitimate reason for the attack. So suppose we now take the instance where some poor corp has done nothing, you've war decced them because one of their Vexors "looked at you funny". Does it become griefing when you wipe them out over several months? This is a hard one....you can't judge it by real life standards because EvE is a virtual world with it's own rules. If someone were to pick on you consistently in a game of monopoly would you be able to take any action against them? Ultimately it comes down to this; EvE is not a nice safe galaxy where we can all pretend to be pixies or elves and get along with each other. It's a dark and dangerous galaxy out there where there are some very unpleasant individuals, corporations and alliances. Is it to the greater good of the EvE community to allow the world to find it's own mechanisms for dealing with griefing or does CCP intervene? Ultimately, I think all CCP can do is judge each case on its own merits but if I were them I would be erring on the side of not intervening unless a situation was clearly outrageous. Dunno if this helps. DF. ***********************************************
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 13:43:00 - [64] Originally by: Darius Falc In low-sec this is a cut and dried case. If you're in low sec and you don't have the skills to protect yourself then anything that happens to you once or repeatedly is entirely your own fault. You were told it was unsafe before you jumped in and in your greater wisdom you still decided to do so. Which is why most people stay away from Low-sec and low-sec pirates complain they don't get enough to kill. Funny that!
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.01.11 13:45:00 - [65] Griefing by the definition other games use IS allowed in EVE. So shut up k? Wherever you went - Here you are.
Darius Falc Gallente Dark Harlequins Fear.	Posted - 2011.01.11 13:53:00 - [66] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Darius Falc In low-sec this is a cut and dried case. If you're in low sec and you don't have the skills to protect yourself then anything that happens to you once or repeatedly is entirely your own fault. You were told it was unsafe before you jumped in and in your greater wisdom you still decided to do so. Which is why most people stay away from Low-sec and low-sec pirates complain they don't get enough to kill. Funny that! Er....I don't see a complaint? Was I complaining and just didn't realise it? Have you ever actually pirated in low sec? The EvE world has more than enough dumb people in it to satisfy even my lust to hear nice little pod squelching sounds. DF. ***********************************************
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 13:56:00 - [67] Originally by: Darius Falc Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Darius Falc In low-sec this is a cut and dried case. If you're in low sec and you don't have the skills to protect yourself then anything that happens to you once or repeatedly is entirely your own fault. You were told it was unsafe before you jumped in and in your greater wisdom you still decided to do so. Which is why most people stay away from Low-sec and low-sec pirates complain they don't get enough to kill. Funny that! Er....I don't see a complaint? Was I complaining and just didn't realise it? Have you ever actually pirated in low sec? The EvE world has more than enough dumb people in it to satisfy even my lust to hear nice little pod squelching sounds. DF. Keep yor pirate hat on. The complain part was more to do with past threads.
Tornan Minmatar Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:07:00 - [68] when they dont use lube or give you a reach around.
Aunty Nora	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:18:00 - [69] Quote: We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec stopped reading here.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:22:00 - [70] The act of grieving is loosely defined. If you cause a group of clan members to quit game because the game is no longer playable and they hold their hands together to do a formal complain to CCP, you may be liable for grieving players. The moral of the story is, do not cause them to quit the game in mass ragequit. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief

Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:24:00 - [71] Originally by: Aunty Nora Quote: We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec stopped reading here. Well spotted! Of course what he really means is that they can't compete in 0.0 so they stay in high-sec with the soft targets.
Draconyx	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:24:00 - [72] Flat out the CEO was bluffing. If anything the CEO of the Corp should have kicked the Alts and been done with them. By leaving the Alts in his/her Corp they are condoning there actions. The targets were not random, and there was a reason behind the war dec.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:42:00 - [73] Edited by: Forum Guy on 11/01/2011 14:43:20 Originally by: Draconyx Flat out the CEO was bluffing. If anything the CEO of the Corp should have kicked the Alts and been done with them. By leaving the Alts in his/her Corp they are condoning there actions. The targets were not random, and there was a reason behind the war dec. I see you would make a good CEO The way I see it, is, they were not getting much (if any) in the way of kill mails because the war-dec'd corp would not come out to play. So they war-dec'd another corp where the first corp had some alts. Just to try and get some more kill mails. If they are mercs they probably get a bonus on each kill mail although if I was paying them I would not pay for any kills in the second corp because I would have not contracted them to do so. As for refering to the second corp as an alt corp that's just bull. It's more likely it's just a corp with some alts in it like most other corps.
leich Amarr bish bash bosh	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:42:00 - [74] Ok lets try this another way. I log into Bad Company, Counter Strike or Call of Duty, I run round and shoot the same person over and over again. Is this Greifing. NO! I War Dec a corp i then also wardec there corp of alts. Is this Greifing NO! Just like the above it's part of the game. I Start Telling someone in Local i will hunt them down RL ect. This is Greifing This is not allowed i would end up banned. Anything else is just Bull.
Draconyx	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Forum Guy Edited by: Forum Guy on 11/01/2011 14:43:20 Originally by: Draconyx Flat out the CEO was bluffing. If anything the CEO of the Corp should have kicked the Alts and been done with them. By leaving the Alts in his/her Corp they are condoning there actions. The targets were not random, and there was a reason behind the war dec. I see you would make a good CEO Actually a good CEO would look @ it in 2 ways. 1) We are a industrial corp and you and your buddies pull a bunch of crap with alts and allowed yourselves to be tracked back to to my corp. Now I have to think of the welfare of the other 100 members of my corp and I know they have no interest in saving your ass's. So you get to leave, have nice day. " And based on the CEO comments they were not interested in taking on the war, however there letter I also found lacking" 2) Alright you did what ?, dumb ass, well the guys and gals need something different from mining anyways, so grab your PvP ships in that griefer corp your in and you are going to fight, or I am going to pod you and then kick you. Bottom line they were gutless no matter which way there alt corp handled it.
Jane Griffin	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:08:00 - [76] Originally by: leich Ok lets try this another way. I log into Bad Company, Counter Strike or Call of Duty, I run round and shoot the same person over and over again. Is this Greifing. NO! I War Dec a corp i then also wardec there corp of alts. Is this Greifing NO! Just like the above it's part of the game. I Start Telling someone in Local i will hunt them down RL ect. This is Greifing This is not allowed i would end up banned. Anything else is just Bull. This. I cant believe so many people are entertaining the idea that anything other than smartbombing outside starter stations or rl threats are griefing. I was wardecced by a guy we used to call lesbian dan at collage, he obviously held a grudge lol. Since he would not engage unless we were in pve ships and to avoid the tedium of station games i make 10 corps in a row, each wardecced, before finally leaving for null sec which was the end of his interest. I did ask CCP about the legitimacy of this but they upheld his right to wardec us, and our right to corp hop.
Funesta	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:13:00 - [77] I think you should just put yourself in the shoes of the guy who would receive the complaint from the mining corp's CEO. How would you expect a police officer, terrorist expert, or (much more likely) their secretaries to respond? What would go through their heads? "So a guy who is in charge of a company mailed us. He wants us to declare a group of people as terrorists for killing the corporation's employees without a good reason. However, the company in question is actually a fake company that mines fake stuff in a game. The guys killing his employees are actually just blowing up imaginary space ships in a game. Kind of like stealing stuff from someone else's farmville account, or turning off the power on the TV when my kid is playing Counterstrike. The only solution is to circular-file this critical document immediately!"
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:21:00 - [78] Edited by: Forum Guy on 11/01/2011 15:24:30 Edited by: Forum Guy on 11/01/2011 15:22:25 It really comes down to this: Those that think that what the op did was the right course of action, would war-dec the person behind the character making all that person's characters legitimate targets. Whereas, those of use that think what the op did was questionable, would war-dec the character and not the person.
Azelor Delaria Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:23:00 - [79] Originally by: JC Anderson Edited by: JC Anderson on 11/01/2011 12:24:04 What you are doing is not griefing in my book. There are certain situations where its hard to tell the difference though. Many merc corps will not take out contracts against specific individuals alone as that could be considered griefing. About a week ago in the C&P forums a GM replied to a thread where somebody was looking to hire mercs out against a single individual. The GM said that in that particular case, they in fact may consider it griefing despite the fact that they were being "hired" to do it. Also, word for word from the EULA. It's pretty vague in all honesty. (Somebody posted a link to it above... But if your lazy, then here it is.) Grief play What is grief play? Griefing A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account. An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated. Initially when we war decced the target corporation, the CEO of it promised to "stomp [us] into the dust". The target corporation then began a long, arduous campaign of making sure they were all docked when we wpould come by their home system of Kaaputenen, while spouting the usual carebear vitriol about how great they were at PvP in local while not actually undocking and proving it. When I found the alt corporation, I made sure that I published in local that a war dec was being voted on for it. The next day, they came out, popped a few of our ships (they had neutral RR, we didn't), and then stayed docked. Point was, we were able to do our job magnificently once we found them. :D *** * * *** "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."
Taedrin Gallente The Green Cross Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:32:00 - [80] Griefing is simply attempting to INTENTIONALLY cause another SPECIFIC person to be miserable in the game. No more, no less. So, griefing is NOT: 1) War deccing another corp and telling them to disband 2) War deccing another corp and telling them to leave the region 3) War deccing another corp and looting their officer fitted mission running ships Griefing IS: 1) War deccing another corp and telling them to disband, and then continue suicide ganking all of the members once they've disbanded anyways just to ** them off. 2) War deccing another corp indefinitely (or an excessively long period) and not offering them any terms of surrender, AND continuing to suicide gank any of the members who escape to an NPC corp. The OP definitely offered several terms: he wanted an Orca and a Rattlesnake dead and on their killboard. As much as I am opposed to kill mail whoring, this is definitely not griefing. ---------- Originally by:** Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.

Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:39:00 - [81] Read the TOS and you will know 2 things: 1. What CCP's definition of griefing is. 2. They do not even attempt to enforce it. Don't forget to keep your clone updated.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:40:00 - [82] Originally by: Taedrin The OP definitely offered several terms: he wanted an Orca and a Rattlesnake dead and on their killboard. As much as I am opposed to kill mail whoring, this is definitely not griefing. He certainly wanted that but not from the corp that he was contracted to war-dec.
Vabjekf Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:42:00 - [83] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Vabjekf But if someone does something that obviously does not benefit themselves at all its pretty clear they are just griefing. Lets look at what you just said there. A kid at school gets their dinner money taken by a school bully. So from your statement we can assume its not bullying/griefing because the bully benefits from it. Can you see why your statement is not right? No, my statement is correct. If the school bully took that money to take the money he is not a griefer, hes just a theif, or some sort of bandit/mugger/pirate/whatever. Now if he says he took that money to take the money but instead really did it to pick on the kid then he is a griefer. But we don't really know why he did it, so we cant say which he is.
Demolishar	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:44:00 - [84] If you're still scared of getting banned over griefing, you're not hardcore enough for that game.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:50:00 - [85] Edited by: JC Anderson on 11/01/2011 15:55:52 Originally by: Azelor Delaria Initially when we war decced the target corporation, the CEO of it promised to "stomp [us] into the dust". The target corporation then began a long, arduous campaign of making sure they were all docked when we wpould come by their home system of Kaaputenen, while spouting the usual carebear vitriol about how great they were at PvP in local while not actually undocking and proving it. When I found the alt corporation, I made sure that I published in local that a war dec was being voted on for it. The next day, they came out, popped a few of our ships (they had neutral RR, we didn't), and then stayed docked. Point was, we were able to do our job magnificently once we found them. :D Then I say they are the offenders! They get you all riled up for a fight and then end up using grief tactics by sitting in stations as you guys are forced into camping them day in and day out! Well not really... But it would be nice if we could look at it from that angle. ;) Originally by: Taedrin Griefing is simply attempting to INTENTIONALLY cause another SPECIFIC person to be miserable in the game. No more, no less. See? They are intentionally making your gameplay experience into a chore by sitting in stations and forcing you into a position of being miserable and bored!
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 16:02:00 - [86] Originally by: Azelor Delaria Initially when we war decced the target corporation, the CEO of it promised to "stomp [us] into the dust". The target corporation then began a long, arduous campaign of making sure they were all docked when we wpould come by their home system of Kaaputenen, while spouting the usual carebear vitriol about how great they were at PvP in local while not actually undocking and proving it. When I found the alt corporation, I made sure that I published in local that a war dec was being voted on for it. The next day, they came out, popped a few of our ships (they had neutral RR, we didn't), and then stayed docked. Point was, we were able to do our job magnificently once we found them. :D Put in bold the important part of your quote. So you asked for peoples opinion and left out vital information. Now I don't know if to believe you at all, sounds now like you could just be trying to make your position more acceptable. Sounds to me like you are still worrying about griefing.
Syn Callibri Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse Broken Chains Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.11 16:11:00 - [87] Edited by: Syn Callibri on 11/01/2011 16:14:37 My Corp. got wardec'd for an interesting reason...one of our members got the message "We gank you or we wardec your corp." and decided not to let the aggressors gank them (this bunch is known for podding for "lols" in hi-sec)...they decided that they didn't want to fight a fight that was impossible to win. SO...we got wardec'd fortunately we were able to disuade the aggressors by boring them into submission. I personally petitioned CCP to find out if this was griefing (for clarification) and the GM ruled it was not. Might not be griefing but it sure was a coercive act i/m/h/o...btw, that (fairly new) player left the game because of it. [21EL] Commander Tac-Ops / [21EL] I.S.C.
Azelor Delaria Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers	Posted - 2011.01.11 16:16:00 - [88] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Aunty Nora Quote: We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec stopped reading here. Well spotted! Of course what he really means is that they can't compete in 0.0 so they stay in high-sec with the soft targets. From the OP: Quote: We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec and low sec, passing war decs, doing 1v1s outside Dodixie Moon 20 station (and before anyone says anything, they're legit. No RR or anything unless someone breaks the rules), and roaming low sec for pirates. Entirety of the text, including the portion you conveniently "forgot". *** * * *** "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 16:23:00 - [89] Originally by: Azelor Delaria Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Aunty Nora Quote: We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec stopped reading here. Well spotted! Of course what he really means is that they can't compete in 0.0 so they stay in high-sec with the soft targets. From the OP: Quote: We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec and low sec, passing war decs, doing 1v1s outside Dodixie Moon 20 station (and before anyone says anything, they're legit. No RR or anything unless someone breaks the rules), and roaming low sec for pirates. Entirety of the text, including the portion you conveniently "forgot". No I did not forget it, just seemed a good way to add the main line of my post. Anyway have you really lived in 0.0 before? I always found 0.0 more interesting than high-sec.
Azelor Delaria Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers	Posted - 2011.01.11 16:27:00 - [90] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Azelor Delaria Initially when we war decced the target corporation, the CEO of it promised to "stomp [us] into the dust". The target corporation then began a long, arduous campaign of making sure they were all docked when we wpould come by their home system of Kaaputenen, while spouting the usual carebear vitriol about how great they were at PvP in local while not actually undocking and proving it. When I found the alt corporation, I made sure that I published in local that a war dec was being voted on for it. The next day, they came out, popped a few of our ships (they had neutral RR, we didn't), and then stayed docked. Point was, we were able to do our job magnificently once we found them. :D Put in bold the important part of your quote. So you asked for peoples opinion and left out vital information. Now I don't know if to believe you at all, sounds now like you could just be trying to make your position more acceptable. Sounds to me like you are still worrying about griefing. I'm really not too worried about griefing. I've taken enough psychology in recent years to make sure that if I'm going to grief someone, it's not going to affect their playstyle in this game. Well, excepting the fact that they will be wondering if that random Ibis heading their way might be one of my alt. ;) Relevant information was not left out of the OP. As I said, the war dec ended a while ago, but I wanted peoples take on what griefing is. I was hoping we'd get a "blue" post, but we haven't. They learned very quickly that we aren't a bunch of window lickers playing this game to make people cry. We're just playing to make people cry. No windows involved! *** * * *** "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."



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