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So, when is it actually griefing?

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Azelor Delaria Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers	Posted - 2011.01.10 23:29:00 - [1] This is a serious question, not a trololol post. I see the term "griefing" thrown around all the time, and would like some input. But some background on why I'm bringing it to the forums. The corporation I joined is a "PvP" corporation. We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec and low sec, passing war decs, doing 1v1s outside Dodixie Moon 20 station (and before anyone says anything, they're legit. No RR or anything unless someone breaks the rules), and roaming low sec for pirates. Recently we startd to pick up some mercenary contracts. Nothing major, since we;re not a huge mercenary corporation. We do, however, get the job done. Recently we were hired to war dec a group of griefers. As the diplomacy officer, it's my job to inform people of why they have been war decced, though not who our contractor is. I am also tasked with making sure that all ransoms are done "by the book". The griefers promised to fight us. with the CEO even promising to "stomp [us] into the ground" on multiple occassions. As we are based in Dodixie, the daily run to Kaaputenen would be long, arduous, and boring. We'd camp them in with a varying number of ships, ranging from a lone Vengeance to a few battleships. But they never fought. Finally we happened to be doing D-Scans to try to find a war taregt in Ikao. He wasin space, but we figured he'd be cloaked. Suddenly, I noticed a Hulk that was not named. It had the pilot's name, and that pilot was a war target. quickly alt-tabbing to my alt camping them in in Kaaputenen, we realized that the pilot was camped in, so the Hulk had to belong to an alt. We found them found they had several alts in a mining corporation. Like good mercs, we decced the alt corporation because we wanted to do the job. I even sent out a letter to the CEO of the alt mining corporation why we were deccing them. He wanted to try to "reason" with us. We gave him a basic list of demands: we knew that one of the WT alts had an Orca in the corporation. We wanted it dead. We also realized that during the war dec we had someone from the alt corp apply because he wanted to "fight" the WTs. Obvious alt is obvious, and we knew he flew a Rattlesnake. We wanted that on our killboard, too. He refused, claiming he couldn't "trust" us becase we were mercenaries. A few days afterwards, I got the following mail: Quote: Greetings. I have been thinking about the reasoning behind your corp war decing mine, and I came up with some realizations. Your corp stated the reason for the war is because you found some SF alts within our corporation, and you war dec'ed WEX to get those players to fight in SF. That the war has nothing to do with this corporation itself, just the specific players. I find that this reason goes beyond the scope of the MMORPG EVE Online. The war contract that your corp originally received was to dec SF, and the characters therein. I am almost certain that the contract said nothing about the physical players who pay to play the game, and all of their alts. War decing a corporation because the players have alts in that corp is nothing short of cyber harassment and cyber bullying. If you do not drop the war dec on Wiyrkomi Excavations, I will have no choice but to contact CCP and report your corporation for cyber harassment beyond the scope of the game, stating that the players themselves feel harassed and threatened by the reasons for this war dec. This is not a bluff. I will provide CCP with mails sent from your corporation to Carpet stating the reasons for the war dec above. If this does not work, then I will do everything in my power to get this filed as cyber terrorism under the Patriot Act. My whole point for the rant is: when is it griefing? Has there been a post on this, or can we assume that there will never be a definitive answer? *** * * *** "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."
Sinister Dextor	Posted - 2011.01.10 23:39:00 - [2] You sir, are a terrorist, and we don't take kindly to your sort round these parts. Your one chance is to high-tail it to I-Raq afore some god fearing Patriots come a knockin.
Azelor Delaria Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers	Posted - 2011.01.10 23:40:00 - [3] Originally by: Sinister Dextor You sir, are a terrorist, and we don't take kindly to your sort round these parts. Your one chance is to high-tail it to I-Raq afore some god fearing Patriots come a knockin. Well it's a good thing I made cookies! I wouldn't want my visitors to leave with empty stomachs! *** * * *** "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."
Clementina The Scope	Posted - 2011.01.10 23:41:00 - [4] What you are doing is not even close to griefing. You should continue for as long as your employer wills it and is paying you. If you find other alt corporations, declare war against them too. If you have a website, you should also post this somewhere, because these are some pretty good tears.
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2011.01.10 23:43:00 - [5] LOL patriot act. SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN
Samuel Caldara	Posted - 2011.01.10 23:45:00 - [6] Bull, that guy can go stuff it up his arse. You could have wardecc'd that corporation simply because you wanted to. You are just being nice and telling them the reason why they are being attacked. That is a game mechanic and is totally legitimate. If you couldn't be wardecc'd unless you wanted no one would ever be wardecce'd... I say go with it, war dec him and watch the tears flow... (P.S. what is the correct spelling of wardec? and wardecc'd?)
Azelor Delaria Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers	Posted - 2011.01.10 23:47:00 - [7] Originally by: Samuel Caldara Bull, that guy can go stuff it up his arse. You could have wardecc'd that corporation simply because you wanted to. You are just being nice and telling them the reason why they are being attacked. That is a game mechanic and is totally legitimate. If you couldn't be wardecc'd unless you wanted no one would ever be wardecce'd... I say go with it, war dec him and watch the tears flow... (P.S. what is the correct spelling of wardec? and wardecc'd?) This happened a while ago. The decs have since passed, but we ended up killing a Proteus and Megathron, putting our ISK Destroyed at over 1.1 Billion with those two ships. The griefers ended up pretty much disbanding after that. *** * * *** "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2011.01.10 23:51:00 - [8] Griefing is when you're screwing with people just to cause them grief. You, however, are being paid, and it's nothing personal at all, so on with the explosions. My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Jovan Geldon Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire	Posted - 2011.01.11 00:14:00 - [9] Quote: I will do everything in my power to get this filed as cyber terrorism under the Patriot Act Confirming that the entire world and every person inhabiting it is under the auspices of America's "justice" system.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.01.11 00:27:00 - [10] Probably the only activity that is actually defined as "greiefing" by CCP is can-baiting newbies in starter systems. Everything else is fair game as long as no RL threats are issued and communication is lacking non-RP-ed racism or other specifically forbidden things. Basically, "griefing" doesn't really exist in EVE outside of starter systems. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _

TimMc Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2011.01.11 01:10:00 - [11] lol thats nowhere near griefing. Griefing on the level CCP step in would be targetting 1 player and suicide ganking him and his clone without financial reasons until he quits eve. Anything less is just the game. I personally hunt down individuals alot, but thats because they fit their ships so nicely.
Anubis Xian Word Bearers of Chaos	Posted - 2011.01.11 02:03:00 - [12] You should have sent your employer an invoice to be approved for adding the alt corp to the contract before actually making it happen, but other than that blow them all to hell. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. CINA
Lilla Kharn Amarr	Posted - 2011.01.11 02:07:00 - [13] Patriot Act? Damn, I would have war dec'd these nubs with you. I would have lol'd at the chance to get arrested under the patriot act for war dec'ing in an internet spaceships game. ============================================= "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.11 02:11:00 - [14] Originally by: Akita T Probably the only activity that is actually defined as "greiefing" by CCP is can-baiting newbies in starter systems. Everything else is fair game as long as no RL threats are issued and communication is lacking non-RP-ed racism or other specifically forbidden things. Basically, "griefing" doesn't really exist in EVE outside of starter systems. This isn't true. If you harass any players just "for the lulz", and that's pretty much all you do, it's bannable. linkage
Scorpyn Warp Ghosts Omega Spectres of the Deep	Posted - 2011.01.11 02:14:00 - [15] Quote: Greetings. I have been thinking about the reasoning behind your corp war decing mine, and I came up with some realizations. Your corp stated the reason for the war is because you found some SF alts within our corporation, and you war dec'ed WEX to get those players to fight in SF. That the war has nothing to do with this corporation itself, just the specific players. I find that this reason goes beyond the scope of the MMORPG EVE Online. The war contract that your corp originally received was to dec SF, and the characters therein. I am almost certain that the contract said nothing about the physical players who pay to play the game, and all of their alts. War decing a corporation because the players have alts in that corp is nothing short of cyber harassment and cyber bullying. If you do not drop the war dec on Wiyrkomi Excavations, I will have no choice but to contact CCP and report your corporation for cyber harassment beyond the scope of the game, stating that the players themselves feel harassed and threatened by the reasons for this war dec. This is not a bluff. I will provide CCP with mails sent from your corporation to Carpet stating the reasons for the war dec above. If this does not work, then I will do everything in my power to get this filed as cyber terrorism under the Patriot Act. How am I supposed to be able to sleep now? This is way too funny Keep the war going
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 02:15:00 - [16] To the op, You surprise me as you are supposed to be a professional merc corp. The way I look at it is you were hired to war-dec a corp which you did. But you took it a stage further and decided to war-dec the people behind the characters by declaring a war-dec on another corp where they had alts. Which is making it kind of personal which could be seen as a kind of griefing.
Christopher AET	Posted - 2011.01.11 02:35:00 - [17] Or indeed a legitimate tactic by cutting the ISK flow to the original corporation. To kill an enemy group destroy their industry chain.
Vak'ran	Posted - 2011.01.11 02:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Forum Guy To the op, You surprise me as you are supposed to be a professional merc corp. The way I look at it is you were hired to war-dec a corp which you did. But you took it a stage further and decided to war-dec the people behind the characters by declaring a war-dec on another corp where they had alts. Which is making it kind of personal which could be seen as a kind of griefing. Bullcrap, in IC terms those alts are industrial capsuleers backing (some of) their war targets, meaning they have a very good (economical) reason to wardec them. In no way did the OP's corp go beyond the game. If you wish to talk griefing, threatening with silly local legislature that does not apply (this American Patriot Act thing) is griefing. It is the mining corp CEO's decision to resort to personal attack in the face of the concequences of his recruitment policy that is (or should be) the bannable offence here. Vak'Ran is your local official non-dedicated part-time advocate of reading comprehension and proliferation of intelligence on the EVE Online Forum
Brannor McThife Caldari Lambent Enterprises Black Thorne Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.11 02:56:00 - [19] Edited by: Brannor McThife on 11/01/2011 03:06:41 Edited by: Brannor McThife on 11/01/2011 02:59:05 Patriot Act? Lol. The US of A going to invade your country? Request extradition to the US? Tactic is completely part of modern warfare. Many centuries ago it was taboo to kill the wagon train people, etc. But then someone worked out that if you wipe out their supplies, you weaken them as a fighting force. Look at WW2, Germany's subs did this quite effectively for a long time. Logistics targetting is now part and parcel of all modern war tactics. Who is/was the CEO of WEX? Edit: Corp: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/corp/Wiyrkomi_Excavations CEO: Carpet Licker69ER -G
Ashlar Maidstone	Posted - 2011.01.11 03:21:00 - [20] After looking at the mail that you recieved from the corps that you war dec'ced, I am under the opinion that yes, this is griefing but targeting specific players and not the corporation(s) themselves. I can be wrong however but yes there is a limit as to how far you can go before it becomes a matter outside of the game. This would be also go beyond the scope of the game masters and CCP as a whole as you would then enter into a whole new arena. Cyber Terrorism is not new anymore as we all know from recent news. However when it becomes such that invoking the Patriot Act, may prove to be difficult even in a court of law, and a judge would really have to look at this form of griefing as harrassment or cyber bullying and rule accordingly.

Lilla Kharn Amarr	Posted - 2011.01.11 03:33:00 - [21] Ok, my opinion. Who gives a crap? You dec'd indy alts who are in a player corp in a way the game mechanics allow. They can leave, so what? You dec'd them, doesn't matter the 'reasons' behind it. It's allowed in the game mechanics. If it's griefing, so be it. But they have the ability to prevent it. So, again I ask, who cares? For you guys that sit here and say it's griefing, who cares? Maybe they should be in noob corps, maybe they should train up pvp. If CCP would want to consider it griefing they would get rid of indy skills entirely so people can't make 'indy corps', then claim griefing tactics. ============================================= "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.11 03:37:00 - [22] You wardec a corp because you got contracted to war dec that corp, fine. You follow around corp members and continually harass the new corps they join, that's griefing. The latter should not be allowed.
Aessoroz	Posted - 2011.01.11 03:45:00 - [23] Edited by: Aessoroz on 11/01/2011 03:45:17 Step 1. Open Corporation window Step 2. Open wars tab Step 3. open other wars tab Step 4. Search for "Unfortunate Soldiers" Step 5. Look at the obvious mining corp that is decced Step 6. Wardec mining corp for lulz
Cyprus Black Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2011.01.11 04:04:00 - [24] Originally by: Azelor Delaria Quote: Greetings. I have been thinking about the reasoning behind your corp war decing mine, and I came up with some realizations. Your corp stated the reason for the war is because you found some SF alts within our corporation, and you war dec'ed WEX to get those players to fight in SF. That the war has nothing to do with this corporation itself, just the specific players. I find that this reason goes beyond the scope of the MMORPG EVE Online. The war contract that your corp originally received was to dec SF, and the characters therein. I am almost certain that the contract said nothing about the physical players who pay to play the game, and all of their alts. War decing a corporation because the players have alts in that corp is nothing short of cyber harassment and cyber bullying. If you do not drop the war dec on Wiyrkomi Excavations, I will have no choice but to contact CCP and report your corporation for cyber harassment beyond the scope of the game, stating that the players themselves feel harassed and threatened by the reasons for this war dec. This is not a bluff. I will provide CCP with mails sent from your corporation to Carpet stating the reasons for the war dec above. If this does not work, then I will do everything in my power to get this filed as cyber terrorism under the Patriot Act. These are the words of a desperate and/or stupid man. Desperate in that you found their vulnerable spot and he has no recourse. Stupid in that, if he really believes what he's saying, this isn't greifing. It's not a reportable offense. It's not bullying nor harassment within the context of EvE. And there certainly is no clause in the Patriot Act that pertains to getting owned in a video game That last part of the letter made me laugh out loud. I'd love to be a fly on the wall if he actually tries to report you as a cyber terrorist. Just imagine the explanation he will have to give for wasting the governments time. If he does try to report you as cyber terrorists under the patriot act, he could face jail time for making a false report. So by all means, rattle his cage a little more ________ 45 minutes & 720 clicks per six hours. 3 hours & 2,880 clicks per day. 21 hours & 20,160 clicks per week. 4 days & 89,280 clicks per month. For the love of God, CCP. Fix PI.
Pipe Cleaner	Posted - 2011.01.11 04:16:00 - [25] I don't know who's more patheic--the guy who is threatening to call the po-po on a wardeccer BECAUSE OF PATRIOT ACT, or the guy who comes running to the forums scared that the FBI might be banging on his door any minute now
Lord Dragonmede	Posted - 2011.01.11 04:29:00 - [26] We will often wardec a corp under suspicion that it is an alt corp being used by war targets. This in our opinion is an acceptable tactic as alts are known to be used for spies, scouts, neutral RR, and hauling to trade hubs. "Alls fair in War" bucko. To meet your objectives of victory, you must at times expand your operations to include counter-espionage, and denial of logistical support and supply lines. None of this has any effect on anything outside of the EvE Universe.
Azelor Delaria Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers	Posted - 2011.01.11 04:38:00 - [27] Originally by: Pipe Cleaner I don't know who's more patheic--the guy who is threatening to call the po-po on a wardeccer BECAUSE OF PATRIOT ACT, or the guy who comes running to the forums scared that the FBI might be banging on his door any minute now I work for the government. I'm not really worried about the FBI...it's NCIS that scares the sht outta' me! =X ** * * *** "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2011.01.11 04:39:00 - [28] So how many wardecs are Wiyrkomi Excavations up to now I wonder?
Azelor Delaria Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers	Posted - 2011.01.11 04:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Pohbis So how many wardecs are Wiyrkomi Excavations up to now I wonder? I dunno'. But they joined an Alliance! *** * * *** "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."
Mess Enger	Posted - 2011.01.11 04:46:00 - [30] Edited by: Mess Enger on 11/01/2011 04:49:32 Originally by: Ashlar Maidstone After looking at the mail that you recieved from the corps that you war dec'ced, I am under the opinion that yes, this is griefing but targeting specific players and not the corporation(s) themselves. I can be wrong however but yes there is a limit as to how far you can go before it becomes a matter outside of the game. This would be also go beyond the scope of the game masters and CCP as a whole as you would then enter into a whole new arena. Cyber Terrorism is not new anymore as we all know from recent news. However when it becomes such that invoking the Patriot Act, may prove to be difficult even in a court of law, and a judge would really have to look at this form of griefing as harrassment or cyber bullying and rule accordingly. I won't play EVE without a lawyer anymore.

Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2011.01.11 04:58:00 - [31] Greifing from eve's perspective. Purposly single handedly picking out and targeting one person on a personal level ensuring that they are entirely unable to play at all. A single podding or territorial poddings shouldnt constitue greifing especially if you extend this courtesy to other 'targets'. But chasing a guy over 80 jumps just so you can specifically pod him again for the tenth time is pertty much there. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 11JAN11
Donatella D'Tren Harbingers of Chaos Inc. Mongoose Legion	Posted - 2011.01.11 05:21:00 - [32] Quote: filed as cyber terrorism under the Patriot Act. WAT. Permadec.
Apollo Gabriel Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2011.01.11 05:29:00 - [33] I help newbs out of w-space, I scram miners then let them go when I find them in low sec to remind them not to be dumb ... so I am not a griefer, not do I much like it when it happens to me (e.g. the point of the word) You sir did NOT grief, even if you had, it is a game. It is not bullying, it is not something one has to do to function, it is purely for entertainment. There are many games which offer zero harassment venues, as does Eve in its NPC corp system. You can war dec any PC corp for any reason, keep the war going for as long as you want, suicide gank every one of their toons when they leave for NPC corps and it still aint griefing. You want grief? warp scramble them for 8 hours sometime, that's grief. Best regards, Apollo Gabriel
Vabjekf Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.11 06:29:00 - [34] Its subjective. Its not going to be certain actions are and certain are not, its the reason you are doing them. If you are doing something for: 1. Profit 2. Revenge 3. Control of your turf 4. Something about them that makes you angry 5. Etc. Then its not griefing. If you are doing it just to make random people angry or for no tangible benefit to yourself then its griefing. Of course many griefers can hide behind one of the above things as a valid reason, and as i have no desire to have thought police and thought crimes its got to stay at that. But if someone does something that obviously does not benefit themselves at all its pretty clear they are just griefing. I will say that anyone who uses the term 'cyber bullying' is exempt. They deserve to be harassed as much as you can.
Major MouseTrap	Posted - 2011.01.11 07:05:00 - [35] Well the op is kinda right new laws are going on the books every week.Some states, like Wisconsin, have both a bullying law (which recently passed) and separate statutes regulating telephones and other forms of electronic communication. Specifically, in Wisconsin it is a misdemeanor crime to threaten to ôinflict injury or personal harmö through the use of e-mail or another computerized communication system. It is also illegal to harass, annoy, or otherwise offend another person electronically. Each state is different with respect to the extent that they specifically address electronic forms of harassment. Educators, parents, and law enforcement officers need to be sure to carefully review and understand the statutes in their own state to understand the formal legal implications of participating in cyberbullying. More than 35 states have anti-bullying laws specifically mandating school districts adopt anti-bullying policies. And 15 states now have some type of cyberbullying law on the books, and another seven with pending legislation before their state legislators. Missouri and California have passed the strongest laws protecting victims of cyberbullying while handing down the harshest punishment to the cyber-bully. Each year more and more states are passing laws protecting children and adults alike from these types of attacks. Federal Cyberbullying Laws On April 2, 2009, a federal level bill addressing cyberbullying was placed before the House of Representatives titled the "Megan Meier Cyberbullying Prevention Act" (Bill H.R. 1966). The Megan Meier case caused law enforcement, parents and advocates to realize that in some cases adults were perpetrating some of the crimes, which may allow some jurisdictions to look at cyberbullying as a form of child abuse when an underage minor is involved
Choujinburi Gallente The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple	Posted - 2011.01.11 07:19:00 - [36] This is comedy gold.
Agallis Zinthros SniggWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2011.01.11 07:32:00 - [37] Originally by: Selinate Originally by: Akita T Probably the only activity that is actually defined as "greiefing" by CCP is can-baiting newbies in starter systems. Everything else is fair game as long as no RL threats are issued and communication is lacking non-RP-ed racism or other specifically forbidden things. Basically, "griefing" doesn't really exist in EVE outside of starter systems. This isn't true. If you harass any players just "for the lulz", and that's pretty much all you do, it's bannable. linkage I'm gonna need source on the lulz thing, because I'm pretty sure Hulkageddon never stopped being a thing. It's not piracy, its surprise PVP.
Major MouseTrap	Posted - 2011.01.11 07:50:00 - [38] Example A. Bob a 17 year old kid playing eve online you are Tom 28 year old mechanic play eve online too. You (Tom) wardec Bob's corp, the kid agro you alot so you keep atacking him for weeks smack talking in local telling him you will kill him every time he undocks.On the third week bob brake's down asked you to leave him alone in his words (let me play quit harrassing me). You Tom love to here him cry in local so you keep it up....now the 17 year old kid is so upset he hurts him self. He leave a note blaming Tom on eve online. The parents get on his computer look at the log's they contact the police etc. Now the US news media picks up on the story its on CNN .....just the chat ...scamms...etc in Jita would make the Eve player's look like the devil after the media is done Eve online is stuck in legal muck and just plain looks bad after the media spin on it .......oo and Tom he was charged and is awaiting his day in court..............so remember people its just a game if someone is truly upset let it go............
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2011.01.11 07:51:00 - [39] Originally by: Schalac LOL patriot act. My thoughts exactly, get a grip ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.01.11 08:04:00 - [40] Originally by: Selinate Originally by: Akita T Probably the only activity that is actually defined as "greiefing" by CCP is can-baiting newbies in starter systems. Everything else is fair game as long as no RL threats are issued and communication is lacking non-RP-ed racism or other specifically forbidden things. Basically, "griefing" doesn't really exist in EVE outside of starter systems. This isn't true. If you harass any players just "for the lulz", and that's pretty much all you do, it's bannable. linkage It might not be true from a purely technical viewpoint, but from a practical viewpoint, other than RL-linked harassment, there's not much else except newbie starter system canbaiting that will ever be actually enforced punishments-wise. As long as the POTENTIAL for financial gain exists, just about any in-game violence is not just allowed, but actually encouraged. 3 day old player in Jita in a newbie frigate ? He might have some PLEX on him, suicide gank it ! Maybe he has some on him this time, I can't be bothered to fit cargo scanners, do it again ! Hey, I want to wardec this corp full of newbies, they'll surely pay for me to leave them alone ! If not now, maybe later. Hey, maybe this guy that annoyed me has enemies willing to pay me to chase him away, if I cause enough trouble for him maybe I'll come across one of his enemies and ask for payment to drive him away. And so on and so forth. I have yet to hear of a single case of "griefing" other than what I specifically mentioned (plus any other action that would break other parts of the EULA, of course) where CCP would even warn the player, let alone ban them, even temporarily. If anybody has any evidence of CCP actually handing out warnings for any "griefing", please, come forward, let your story be heard and hopefully confirmed. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _

Karn Velora	Posted - 2011.01.11 09:12:00 - [41] Originally by: Azelor Delaria Quote: Greetings. I have been thinking about the reasoning behind your corp war decing mine, and I came up with some realizations. Your corp stated the reason for the war is because you found some SF alts within our corporation, and you war dec'ed WEX to get those players to fight in SF. That the war has nothing to do with this corporation itself, just the specific players. I find that this reason goes beyond the scope of the MMORPG EVE Online. The war contract that your corp originally received was to dec SF, and the characters therein. I am almost certain that the contract said nothing about the physical players who pay to play the game, and all of their alts. War decing a corporation because the players have alts in that corp is nothing short of cyber harassment and cyber bullying. If you do not drop the war dec on Wiyrkomi Excavations, I will have no choice but to contact CCP and report your corporation for cyber harassment beyond the scope of the game, stating that the players themselves feel harassed and threatened by the reasons for this war dec. This is not a bluff. I will provide CCP with mails sent from your corporation to Carpet stating the reasons for the war dec above. If this does not work, then I will do everything in my power to get this filed as cyber terrorism under the Patriot Act. My whole point for the rant is: when is it griefing? Has there been a post on this, or can we assume that there will never be a definitive answer? There's plenty of things that should be considered griefing, that CCP don't give a ** about. This is not one of them. It's the unfortunate reality of EVE these days that a huge portion of gankers use high sec to grid in peace and then turn around to use the isk to gank people. They want 100% safety to grind, but they also want everyone else to be a target when it pleases them. To make matters worse, they are actually hiding behind a wall of alts. Needless to say, they don't have a leg to stand on. Hell, even if they had a point that deccing alts would (lol) be beyond the scope of the game - they are still out of luck, as their alts are financing their griefers - and that again turns them into fair play targets. Now... threatening players with bull** US legal action under the patriot act for playing the game is really, really bad. This is DEFINITELY something CCP want to know about. Inform CCP about this ASAP, and in the meantime, wipe them out.
EnslaverOfMinmatar Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2011.01.11 09:17:00 - [42] OP, start playing through a proxy :D uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ
Karn Velora	Posted - 2011.01.11 09:17:00 - [43] Originally by: Major MouseTrap Well the op is kinda right new laws are going on the books every week.Some states, like Wisconsin, have both a bullying law (which recently passed) and separate statutes regulating telephones and other forms of electronic communication. Specifically, in Wisconsin it is a misdemeanor crime to threaten to ôinflict injury or personal harmö through the use of e-mail or another computerized communication system. It is also illegal to harass, annoy, or otherwise offend another person electronically. Each state is different with respect to the extent that they specifically address electronic forms of harassment. Educators, parents, and law enforcement officers need to be sure to carefully review and understand the statutes in their own state to understand the formal legal implications of participating in cyberbullying. More than 35 states have anti-bullying laws specifically mandating school districts adopt anti-bullying policies. And 15 states now have some type of cyberbullying law on the books, and another seven with pending legislation before their state legislators. Missouri and California have passed the strongest laws protecting victims of cyberbullying while handing down the harshest punishment to the cyber-bully. Each year more and more states are passing laws protecting children and adults alike from these types of attacks. Federal Cyberbullying Laws On April 2, 2009, a federal level bill addressing cyberbullying was placed before the House of Representatives titled the "Megan Meier Cyberbullying Prevention Act" (Bill H.R. 1966). The Megan Meier case caused law enforcement, parents and advocates to realize that in some cases adults were perpetrating some of the crimes, which may allow some jurisdictions to look at cyberbullying as a form of child abuse when an underage minor is involved So, yea, they don't have a leg to stand on. The bullying acts simply clarify that all the usual bullying is still illegal - even if it's done over the internet. (**** they need a law to clarify that?) This doesn't in any way apply to "They are shooting me on a pvp game. Unfair." This is ridiculous.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2011.01.11 09:29:00 - [44] Originally by: Schalac LOL patriot act. + 1 lmao this sort of level of emotion is what makes the game so good .. heck, even myself lost it over the "free remap" thing (well i've still lost it . but thats another matter) watch out guys, the fbi is coming
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 09:33:00 - [45] Originally by: Vabjekf But if someone does something that obviously does not benefit themselves at all its pretty clear they are just griefing. Lets look at what you just said there. A kid at school gets their dinner money taken by a school bully. So from your statement we can assume its not bullying/griefing because the bully benefits from it. Can you see why your statement is not right?
Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.11 09:42:00 - [46] The alt system allows players to keep happily playing while avoiding non-consensual pvp. If the alts are discovered, it's fair game. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
rootimus maximus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2011.01.11 09:44:00 - [47] The CEO of Wiyrkomi Excavations should stop crying. According to his info, he has the title General of the armies. He should send some of those armies to deal with the corp that issued the wardec. Or change his title to something more suitable, like Pansy in Chief. Originally by: Forum Guy A kid at school gets their dinner money taken by a school bully. So from your statement we can assume its not bullying/griefing because the bully benefits from it. Can you see why your statement is not right? Either you're a troll, or you can't see the difference between RL and a PvP game.
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2011.01.11 09:44:00 - [48] Actually he does have a point but only if there is no direct interaction between the characters For example: Let's call our player JimBob. JimBob has two characters. One is a pirate. The other is a miner. JimBob does not trade or have any links between his two characters. You for some reason war dec the pirate character. Then somehow you find out the miner also belongs to JimBob. You war dec the miner because you know it belongs to JimBob What you've done here could be viewed as griefing because you are attacking JimBob just because it is JimBob's characters. It's gone to a personal level. If, however, JimBob trades between characters or there is some other link (one supports the other for example) then it is not griefing.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.11 09:47:00 - [49] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Vabjekf But if someone does something that obviously does not benefit themselves at all its pretty clear they are just griefing. Lets look at what you just said there. A kid at school gets their dinner money taken by a school bully. So from your statement we can assume its not bullying/griefing because the bully benefits from it. Can you see why your statement is not right? No because this is a pvp game while the dinner money is not.
Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.11 09:49:00 - [50] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 11/01/2011 09:50:21 Originally by: Lillith Starfire Actually he does have a point but only if there is no direct interaction between the characters For example: Let's call our player JimBob. JimBob has two characters. One is a pirate. The other is a miner. JimBob does not trade or have any links between his two characters. You for some reason war dec the pirate character. Then somehow you find out the miner also belongs to JimBob. You war dec the miner because you know it belongs to JimBob What you've done here could be viewed as griefing because you are attacking JimBob just because it is JimBob's characters. It's gone to a personal level. If, however, JimBob trades between characters or there is some other link (one supports the other for example) then it is not griefing. Bull****. JimBob's piracy means he instigates non-consensual pvp all the time. He has no right to be artificially protected from it by CCP or by law if people know who his alt is. -- Eventus stultorum magister.

Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 09:55:00 - [51] Originally by: rootimus maximus The CEO of Wiyrkomi Excavations should stop crying. According to his info, he has the title General of the armies. He should send some of those armies to deal with the corp that issued the wardec. Or change his title to something more suitable, like Pansy in Chief. Originally by: Forum Guy A kid at school gets their dinner money taken by a school bully. So from your statement we can assume its not bullying/griefing because the bully benefits from it. Can you see why your statement is not right? Either you're a troll, or you can't see the difference between RL and a PvP game. I know the difference alright, but I am also aware that there are real life people behind those characters.
rootimus maximus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2011.01.11 10:04:00 - [52] Originally by: Forum Guy I know the difference alright, but I am also aware that there are real life people behind those characters. What's your point? People die in computer games all the time. If they can't seperate that from reality then they really need pyschiatric help.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 10:15:00 - [53] Originally by: Arthur Frayn The alt system allows players to keep happily playing while avoiding non-consensual pvp. If the alts are discovered, it's fair game. A lot of war-decs are declared on non-pvp corps, for essentially easy kills. Not all alts are linked in the way people make out in these threads. The only reason to hit on the alts is to try and keep a player locked up in a station and not playing the game. In your mind cutting off the supply which might not be the case anyway. Main reason a non-pvper would keep an alt seperate from the corp they were in, is because of war-decs. When a war-dec is declared they park that character in a station and use the alt. Which is completely fair, it might not give the result that the people war-dec'ing want (as they are after kill mails as well as) but it does put a character out of action for awhile.
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2011.01.11 10:19:00 - [54] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 11/01/2011 09:50:21 Originally by: Lillith Starfire Actually he does have a point but only if there is no direct interaction between the characters For example: Let's call our player JimBob. JimBob has two characters. One is a pirate. The other is a miner. JimBob does not trade or have any links between his two characters. You for some reason war dec the pirate character. Then somehow you find out the miner also belongs to JimBob. You war dec the miner because you know it belongs to JimBob What you've done here could be viewed as griefing because you are attacking JimBob just because it is JimBob's characters. It's gone to a personal level. If, however, JimBob trades between characters or there is some other link (one supports the other for example) then it is not griefing. Bull***. JimBob's piracy means he instigates non-consensual pvp all the time. He has no right to be artificially protected from it by CCP or by law if people know who his alt is. No, JimBob's pirate character is. His miner has nothing to do with anything? So you're suggesting that it's still fine to dec someone's chars even if they have nothing to do with each other? The only* link being they are both owned by JimBob? That is griefing. Now if the characters had some ingame link to each other or you had some other legit reason to dec the other then sure, but for no other reasons then no it is personal griefing.
Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.11 10:31:00 - [55] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 11/01/2011 10:32:09 Originally by: Lillith Starfire Originally by: Arthur Frayn Bull***. JimBob's piracy means he instigates non-consensual pvp all the time. He has no right to be artificially protected from it by CCP or by law if people know who his alt is. No, JimBob's pirate character is. His miner has nothing to do with anything? So you're suggesting that it's still fine to dec someone's chars even if they have nothing to do with each other? The only* link being they are both owned by JimBob? That is griefing. Now if the characters had some ingame link to each other or you had some other legit reason to dec the other then sure, but for no other reasons then no it is personal griefing. You don't understand. Let me explain it for you: "JimBob" has plenty of ingame tools at his disposal to avoid griefing on any of his characters. He can temporarily move to an NPC corp(the best way to protect oneself), hire merc corps, stay in highsec if not wardecced, and even as last resort, he can log off for a week. The motive for those attacking him is irrelevant. Whether they know or not that he's the alt of a known pirate, they have a right to wardec him and engage him in pvp. No outside force should be protecting him because the game rules allow him to take steps to protect himself. Did you forget that Eve has a pretty clear warning label? If you undock, you put yourself at risk. No exceptions. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 10:36:00 - [56] Originally by: Arthur Frayn "JimBob" has plenty of ingame tools at his disposal to avoid griefing on any of his characters. He can temporarily move to an NPC corp(the best way to protect oneself), Not everyone wants to keep jumping in and out of corps. Main reason for that is the employment record each character has. Their play style might change over the life time of their character and who wants a crappy employment record.
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2011.01.11 10:46:00 - [57] Originally by: Arthur Frayn You don't understand. Let me explain it for you: "JimBob" has plenty of ingame tools at his disposal to avoid griefing on any of his characters. He can temporarily move to an NPC corp(the best way to protect oneself), hire merc corps, stay in highsec if not wardecced, and even as last resort, he can log off for a week. The motive for those attacking him is irrelevant. Whether they know or not that he's the alt of a known pirate, they have a right to wardec him and engage him in pvp. No outside force should be protecting him because the game rules allow him to take steps to protect himself. Did you forget that Eve has a pretty clear warning label? If you undock, you put yourself at risk. No exceptions. I don't disagree about the risk aspect. I am fully aware there can be war decs for any trivial reason. What I'm saying is that if the reason is "It's because it's a character of this player" then you are basically proving you are going after the player and trying to attack him regardless. Well I'll stop here because it's obvious some people can't tell the difference between characters and actual person.
Zaerlorth Maelkor The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.11 11:08:00 - [58] Originally by: Ashlar Maidstone After looking at the mail that you recieved from the corps that you war dec'ced, I am under the opinion that yes, this is griefing but targeting specific players and not the corporation(s) themselves. I can be wrong however but yes there is a limit as to how far you can go before it becomes a matter outside of the game. This would be also go beyond the scope of the game masters and CCP as a whole as you would then enter into a whole new arena. Cyber Terrorism is not new anymore as we all know from recent news. However when it becomes such that invoking the Patriot Act, may prove to be difficult even in a court of law, and a judge would really have to look at this form of griefing as harrassment or cyber bullying and rule accordingly. Another alt spotted! Wardec this one also! However, you might want to consider a few things, first of all; I now have one of those annoying sigs. second; you should probably move on to some more interesting things than reading this sig.
NupetietVer Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2011.01.11 11:49:00 - [59] LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Someone actually invoking cyber bullying. These tears are tasty.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.01.11 12:21:00 - [60] Edited by: JC Anderson on 11/01/2011 12:24:04 What you are doing is not griefing in my book. There are certain situations where its hard to tell the difference though. Many merc corps will not take out contracts against specific individuals alone as that could be considered griefing. About a week ago in the C&P forums a GM replied to a thread where somebody was looking to hire mercs out against a single individual. The GM said that in that particular case, they in fact may consider it griefing despite the fact that they were being "hired" to do it. Also, word for word from the EULA. It's pretty vague in all honesty. (Somebody posted a link to it above... But if your lazy, then here it is.) Grief play What is grief play? Griefing A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account. An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.

Lady Skank Ban Evasion inc	Posted - 2011.01.11 12:27:00 - [61] Originally by: Major MouseTrap Well the op is kinda right new laws are going on the books every week.Some states, like Wisconsin, have both a bullying law (which recently passed) and separate statutes regulating telephones and other forms of electronic communication. Specifically, in Wisconsin it is a misdemeanor crime to threaten to ôinflict injury or personal harmö through the use of e-mail or another computerized communication system. It is also illegal to harass, annoy, or otherwise offend another person electronically. Each state is different with respect to the extent that they specifically address electronic forms of harassment. Educators, parents, and law enforcement officers need to be sure to carefully review and understand the statutes in their own state to understand the formal legal implications of participating in cyberbullying. More than 35 states have anti-bullying laws specifically mandating school districts adopt anti-bullying policies. And 15 states now have some type of cyberbullying law on the books, and another seven with pending legislation before their state legislators. Missouri and California have passed the strongest laws protecting victims of cyberbullying while handing down the harshest punishment to the cyber-bully. Each year more and more states are passing laws protecting children and adults alike from these types of attacks. Federal Cyberbullying Laws On April 2, 2009, a federal level bill addressing cyberbullying was placed before the House of Representatives titled the "Megan Meier Cyberbullying Prevention Act" (Bill H.R. 1966). The Megan Meier case caused law enforcement, parents and advocates to realize that in some cases adults were perpetrating some of the crimes, which may allow some jurisdictions to look at cyberbullying as a form of child abuse when an underage minor is involved None of this applies to a game, what will people do when they lose a game of chess? call the police because they are being bullied? as long as its game related the courts will do nothing so losing an Internet spaceship gives no grounds for a prosecution neither will calling somebody a Gallente pig. Telling somebody that you will come and kill them and burn down their house or forcing somebody to hand over virtual property by making real life threats to a persons safety would but that's a different kettle of fish and something that CCP would deal with as well.
Pookie McPook	Posted - 2011.01.11 12:59:00 - [62] Seriously, does this "Wiyrkomi Excavations" bunch even know what game they're playing? Why on earth would they believe that CCP would be remotely interested in a petition about being wardecced "against their will"? Why indeed would the OP think that it warranted confirming on the forums however. ----- Marmite. Rocket fuel of champions.
Darius Falc Gallente Dark Harlequins Fear.	Posted - 2011.01.11 13:30:00 - [63] Being a pirate and someone who spends most of my EvE life in low sec nicking things off the poor unfortunates dumb enough to fly haulers through low sec un-scouted, this topic interests me. For what it's worth, here is my halfpenny's worth. In low-sec this is a cut and dried case. If you're in low sec and you don't have the skills to protect yourself then anything that happens to you once or repeatedly is entirely your own fault. You were told it was unsafe before you jumped in and in your greater wisdom you still decided to do so. In High-sec this is harder. As an alliance we've just war decced a corporation largely because one of their members was a potty mouth when we blew up his hauler in low sec. Now they're a mining corp...they don't really stand a chance and have spent most of their time hiding in stations. Is this griefing? In the first instance I'd say no because we had a legitimate reason for declaring war on them....but say we continued at war with them until they were forced to disband? I think my answer would still be no because there was legitimate reason for the attack. So suppose we now take the instance where some poor corp has done nothing, you've war decced them because one of their Vexors "looked at you funny". Does it become griefing when you wipe them out over several months? This is a hard one....you can't judge it by real life standards because EvE is a virtual world with it's own rules. If someone were to pick on you consistently in a game of monopoly would you be able to take any action against them? Ultimately it comes down to this; EvE is not a nice safe galaxy where we can all pretend to be pixies or elves and get along with each other. It's a dark and dangerous galaxy out there where there are some very unpleasant individuals, corporations and alliances. Is it to the greater good of the EvE community to allow the world to find it's own mechanisms for dealing with griefing or does CCP intervene? Ultimately, I think all CCP can do is judge each case on its own merits but if I were them I would be erring on the side of not intervening unless a situation was clearly outrageous. Dunno if this helps. DF. ***********************************************
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 13:43:00 - [64] Originally by: Darius Falc In low-sec this is a cut and dried case. If you're in low sec and you don't have the skills to protect yourself then anything that happens to you once or repeatedly is entirely your own fault. You were told it was unsafe before you jumped in and in your greater wisdom you still decided to do so. Which is why most people stay away from Low-sec and low-sec pirates complain they don't get enough to kill. Funny that!
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.01.11 13:45:00 - [65] Griefing by the definition other games use IS allowed in EVE. So shut up k? Wherever you went - Here you are.
Darius Falc Gallente Dark Harlequins Fear.	Posted - 2011.01.11 13:53:00 - [66] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Darius Falc In low-sec this is a cut and dried case. If you're in low sec and you don't have the skills to protect yourself then anything that happens to you once or repeatedly is entirely your own fault. You were told it was unsafe before you jumped in and in your greater wisdom you still decided to do so. Which is why most people stay away from Low-sec and low-sec pirates complain they don't get enough to kill. Funny that! Er....I don't see a complaint? Was I complaining and just didn't realise it? Have you ever actually pirated in low sec? The EvE world has more than enough dumb people in it to satisfy even my lust to hear nice little pod squelching sounds. DF. ***********************************************
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 13:56:00 - [67] Originally by: Darius Falc Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Darius Falc In low-sec this is a cut and dried case. If you're in low sec and you don't have the skills to protect yourself then anything that happens to you once or repeatedly is entirely your own fault. You were told it was unsafe before you jumped in and in your greater wisdom you still decided to do so. Which is why most people stay away from Low-sec and low-sec pirates complain they don't get enough to kill. Funny that! Er....I don't see a complaint? Was I complaining and just didn't realise it? Have you ever actually pirated in low sec? The EvE world has more than enough dumb people in it to satisfy even my lust to hear nice little pod squelching sounds. DF. Keep yor pirate hat on. The complain part was more to do with past threads.
Tornan Minmatar Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:07:00 - [68] when they dont use lube or give you a reach around.
Aunty Nora	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:18:00 - [69] Quote: We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec stopped reading here.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:22:00 - [70] The act of grieving is loosely defined. If you cause a group of clan members to quit game because the game is no longer playable and they hold their hands together to do a formal complain to CCP, you may be liable for grieving players. The moral of the story is, do not cause them to quit the game in mass ragequit. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief

Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:24:00 - [71] Originally by: Aunty Nora Quote: We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec stopped reading here. Well spotted! Of course what he really means is that they can't compete in 0.0 so they stay in high-sec with the soft targets.
Draconyx	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:24:00 - [72] Flat out the CEO was bluffing. If anything the CEO of the Corp should have kicked the Alts and been done with them. By leaving the Alts in his/her Corp they are condoning there actions. The targets were not random, and there was a reason behind the war dec.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:42:00 - [73] Edited by: Forum Guy on 11/01/2011 14:43:20 Originally by: Draconyx Flat out the CEO was bluffing. If anything the CEO of the Corp should have kicked the Alts and been done with them. By leaving the Alts in his/her Corp they are condoning there actions. The targets were not random, and there was a reason behind the war dec. I see you would make a good CEO The way I see it, is, they were not getting much (if any) in the way of kill mails because the war-dec'd corp would not come out to play. So they war-dec'd another corp where the first corp had some alts. Just to try and get some more kill mails. If they are mercs they probably get a bonus on each kill mail although if I was paying them I would not pay for any kills in the second corp because I would have not contracted them to do so. As for refering to the second corp as an alt corp that's just bull. It's more likely it's just a corp with some alts in it like most other corps.
leich Amarr bish bash bosh	Posted - 2011.01.11 14:42:00 - [74] Ok lets try this another way. I log into Bad Company, Counter Strike or Call of Duty, I run round and shoot the same person over and over again. Is this Greifing. NO! I War Dec a corp i then also wardec there corp of alts. Is this Greifing NO! Just like the above it's part of the game. I Start Telling someone in Local i will hunt them down RL ect. This is Greifing This is not allowed i would end up banned. Anything else is just Bull.
Draconyx	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Forum Guy Edited by: Forum Guy on 11/01/2011 14:43:20 Originally by: Draconyx Flat out the CEO was bluffing. If anything the CEO of the Corp should have kicked the Alts and been done with them. By leaving the Alts in his/her Corp they are condoning there actions. The targets were not random, and there was a reason behind the war dec. I see you would make a good CEO Actually a good CEO would look @ it in 2 ways. 1) We are a industrial corp and you and your buddies pull a bunch of crap with alts and allowed yourselves to be tracked back to to my corp. Now I have to think of the welfare of the other 100 members of my corp and I know they have no interest in saving your ass's. So you get to leave, have nice day. " And based on the CEO comments they were not interested in taking on the war, however there letter I also found lacking" 2) Alright you did what ?, dumb ass, well the guys and gals need something different from mining anyways, so grab your PvP ships in that griefer corp your in and you are going to fight, or I am going to pod you and then kick you. Bottom line they were gutless no matter which way there alt corp handled it.
Jane Griffin	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:08:00 - [76] Originally by: leich Ok lets try this another way. I log into Bad Company, Counter Strike or Call of Duty, I run round and shoot the same person over and over again. Is this Greifing. NO! I War Dec a corp i then also wardec there corp of alts. Is this Greifing NO! Just like the above it's part of the game. I Start Telling someone in Local i will hunt them down RL ect. This is Greifing This is not allowed i would end up banned. Anything else is just Bull. This. I cant believe so many people are entertaining the idea that anything other than smartbombing outside starter stations or rl threats are griefing. I was wardecced by a guy we used to call lesbian dan at collage, he obviously held a grudge lol. Since he would not engage unless we were in pve ships and to avoid the tedium of station games i make 10 corps in a row, each wardecced, before finally leaving for null sec which was the end of his interest. I did ask CCP about the legitimacy of this but they upheld his right to wardec us, and our right to corp hop.
Funesta	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:13:00 - [77] I think you should just put yourself in the shoes of the guy who would receive the complaint from the mining corp's CEO. How would you expect a police officer, terrorist expert, or (much more likely) their secretaries to respond? What would go through their heads? "So a guy who is in charge of a company mailed us. He wants us to declare a group of people as terrorists for killing the corporation's employees without a good reason. However, the company in question is actually a fake company that mines fake stuff in a game. The guys killing his employees are actually just blowing up imaginary space ships in a game. Kind of like stealing stuff from someone else's farmville account, or turning off the power on the TV when my kid is playing Counterstrike. The only solution is to circular-file this critical document immediately!"
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:21:00 - [78] Edited by: Forum Guy on 11/01/2011 15:24:30 Edited by: Forum Guy on 11/01/2011 15:22:25 It really comes down to this: Those that think that what the op did was the right course of action, would war-dec the person behind the character making all that person's characters legitimate targets. Whereas, those of use that think what the op did was questionable, would war-dec the character and not the person.
Azelor Delaria Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:23:00 - [79] Originally by: JC Anderson Edited by: JC Anderson on 11/01/2011 12:24:04 What you are doing is not griefing in my book. There are certain situations where its hard to tell the difference though. Many merc corps will not take out contracts against specific individuals alone as that could be considered griefing. About a week ago in the C&P forums a GM replied to a thread where somebody was looking to hire mercs out against a single individual. The GM said that in that particular case, they in fact may consider it griefing despite the fact that they were being "hired" to do it. Also, word for word from the EULA. It's pretty vague in all honesty. (Somebody posted a link to it above... But if your lazy, then here it is.) Grief play What is grief play? Griefing A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account. An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated. Initially when we war decced the target corporation, the CEO of it promised to "stomp [us] into the dust". The target corporation then began a long, arduous campaign of making sure they were all docked when we wpould come by their home system of Kaaputenen, while spouting the usual carebear vitriol about how great they were at PvP in local while not actually undocking and proving it. When I found the alt corporation, I made sure that I published in local that a war dec was being voted on for it. The next day, they came out, popped a few of our ships (they had neutral RR, we didn't), and then stayed docked. Point was, we were able to do our job magnificently once we found them. :D *** * * *** "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."
Taedrin Gallente The Green Cross Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:32:00 - [80] Griefing is simply attempting to INTENTIONALLY cause another SPECIFIC person to be miserable in the game. No more, no less. So, griefing is NOT: 1) War deccing another corp and telling them to disband 2) War deccing another corp and telling them to leave the region 3) War deccing another corp and looting their officer fitted mission running ships Griefing IS: 1) War deccing another corp and telling them to disband, and then continue suicide ganking all of the members once they've disbanded anyways just to ** them off. 2) War deccing another corp indefinitely (or an excessively long period) and not offering them any terms of surrender, AND continuing to suicide gank any of the members who escape to an NPC corp. The OP definitely offered several terms: he wanted an Orca and a Rattlesnake dead and on their killboard. As much as I am opposed to kill mail whoring, this is definitely not griefing. ---------- Originally by:** Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.

Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:39:00 - [81] Read the TOS and you will know 2 things: 1. What CCP's definition of griefing is. 2. They do not even attempt to enforce it. Don't forget to keep your clone updated.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:40:00 - [82] Originally by: Taedrin The OP definitely offered several terms: he wanted an Orca and a Rattlesnake dead and on their killboard. As much as I am opposed to kill mail whoring, this is definitely not griefing. He certainly wanted that but not from the corp that he was contracted to war-dec.
Vabjekf Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:42:00 - [83] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Vabjekf But if someone does something that obviously does not benefit themselves at all its pretty clear they are just griefing. Lets look at what you just said there. A kid at school gets their dinner money taken by a school bully. So from your statement we can assume its not bullying/griefing because the bully benefits from it. Can you see why your statement is not right? No, my statement is correct. If the school bully took that money to take the money he is not a griefer, hes just a theif, or some sort of bandit/mugger/pirate/whatever. Now if he says he took that money to take the money but instead really did it to pick on the kid then he is a griefer. But we don't really know why he did it, so we cant say which he is.
Demolishar	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:44:00 - [84] If you're still scared of getting banned over griefing, you're not hardcore enough for that game.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.01.11 15:50:00 - [85] Edited by: JC Anderson on 11/01/2011 15:55:52 Originally by: Azelor Delaria Initially when we war decced the target corporation, the CEO of it promised to "stomp [us] into the dust". The target corporation then began a long, arduous campaign of making sure they were all docked when we wpould come by their home system of Kaaputenen, while spouting the usual carebear vitriol about how great they were at PvP in local while not actually undocking and proving it. When I found the alt corporation, I made sure that I published in local that a war dec was being voted on for it. The next day, they came out, popped a few of our ships (they had neutral RR, we didn't), and then stayed docked. Point was, we were able to do our job magnificently once we found them. :D Then I say they are the offenders! They get you all riled up for a fight and then end up using grief tactics by sitting in stations as you guys are forced into camping them day in and day out! Well not really... But it would be nice if we could look at it from that angle. ;) Originally by: Taedrin Griefing is simply attempting to INTENTIONALLY cause another SPECIFIC person to be miserable in the game. No more, no less. See? They are intentionally making your gameplay experience into a chore by sitting in stations and forcing you into a position of being miserable and bored!
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 16:02:00 - [86] Originally by: Azelor Delaria Initially when we war decced the target corporation, the CEO of it promised to "stomp [us] into the dust". The target corporation then began a long, arduous campaign of making sure they were all docked when we wpould come by their home system of Kaaputenen, while spouting the usual carebear vitriol about how great they were at PvP in local while not actually undocking and proving it. When I found the alt corporation, I made sure that I published in local that a war dec was being voted on for it. The next day, they came out, popped a few of our ships (they had neutral RR, we didn't), and then stayed docked. Point was, we were able to do our job magnificently once we found them. :D Put in bold the important part of your quote. So you asked for peoples opinion and left out vital information. Now I don't know if to believe you at all, sounds now like you could just be trying to make your position more acceptable. Sounds to me like you are still worrying about griefing.
Syn Callibri Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse Broken Chains Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.11 16:11:00 - [87] Edited by: Syn Callibri on 11/01/2011 16:14:37 My Corp. got wardec'd for an interesting reason...one of our members got the message "We gank you or we wardec your corp." and decided not to let the aggressors gank them (this bunch is known for podding for "lols" in hi-sec)...they decided that they didn't want to fight a fight that was impossible to win. SO...we got wardec'd fortunately we were able to disuade the aggressors by boring them into submission. I personally petitioned CCP to find out if this was griefing (for clarification) and the GM ruled it was not. Might not be griefing but it sure was a coercive act i/m/h/o...btw, that (fairly new) player left the game because of it. [21EL] Commander Tac-Ops / [21EL] I.S.C.
Azelor Delaria Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers	Posted - 2011.01.11 16:16:00 - [88] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Aunty Nora Quote: We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec stopped reading here. Well spotted! Of course what he really means is that they can't compete in 0.0 so they stay in high-sec with the soft targets. From the OP: Quote: We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec and low sec, passing war decs, doing 1v1s outside Dodixie Moon 20 station (and before anyone says anything, they're legit. No RR or anything unless someone breaks the rules), and roaming low sec for pirates. Entirety of the text, including the portion you conveniently "forgot". *** * * *** "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 16:23:00 - [89] Originally by: Azelor Delaria Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Aunty Nora Quote: We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec stopped reading here. Well spotted! Of course what he really means is that they can't compete in 0.0 so they stay in high-sec with the soft targets. From the OP: Quote: We don't go to null sec as it's a joke. We stay in high sec and low sec, passing war decs, doing 1v1s outside Dodixie Moon 20 station (and before anyone says anything, they're legit. No RR or anything unless someone breaks the rules), and roaming low sec for pirates. Entirety of the text, including the portion you conveniently "forgot". No I did not forget it, just seemed a good way to add the main line of my post. Anyway have you really lived in 0.0 before? I always found 0.0 more interesting than high-sec.
Azelor Delaria Caldari Unfortunate Soldiers	Posted - 2011.01.11 16:27:00 - [90] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Azelor Delaria Initially when we war decced the target corporation, the CEO of it promised to "stomp [us] into the dust". The target corporation then began a long, arduous campaign of making sure they were all docked when we wpould come by their home system of Kaaputenen, while spouting the usual carebear vitriol about how great they were at PvP in local while not actually undocking and proving it. When I found the alt corporation, I made sure that I published in local that a war dec was being voted on for it. The next day, they came out, popped a few of our ships (they had neutral RR, we didn't), and then stayed docked. Point was, we were able to do our job magnificently once we found them. :D Put in bold the important part of your quote. So you asked for peoples opinion and left out vital information. Now I don't know if to believe you at all, sounds now like you could just be trying to make your position more acceptable. Sounds to me like you are still worrying about griefing. I'm really not too worried about griefing. I've taken enough psychology in recent years to make sure that if I'm going to grief someone, it's not going to affect their playstyle in this game. Well, excepting the fact that they will be wondering if that random Ibis heading their way might be one of my alt. ;) Relevant information was not left out of the OP. As I said, the war dec ended a while ago, but I wanted peoples take on what griefing is. I was hoping we'd get a "blue" post, but we haven't. They learned very quickly that we aren't a bunch of window lickers playing this game to make people cry. We're just playing to make people cry. No windows involved! *** * * *** "No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy."

Jane Griffin	Posted - 2011.01.11 16:33:00 - [91] Wardec for any or no reason is a legitimate strategy. Aimed at characters or players. Leaving corp to avoid wardec is a legitimate strategy. Staying docked to avoid pvp is a legitimate strategy. There is balance here.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.11 16:40:00 - [92] Originally by: Jane Griffin Wardec for any or no reason is a legitimate strategy. Aimed at characters or players. Leaving corp to avoid wardec is a legitimate strategy. Staying docked to avoid pvp is a legitimate strategy. There is balance here. Wardeccing for no reason is, buy definition, not a legitimate strategy since it isn't a strategy at all...
Alexandra Delarge Gallente The Korova	Posted - 2011.01.11 17:46:00 - [93] Edited by: Alexandra Delarge on 11/01/2011 17:46:32 Originally by: Selinate Wardeccing for no reason is, buy definition, not a legitimate strategy since it isn't a strategy at all... You must be new to Eve. You don't need a reason or a strategy to war dec someone. Everybody is free to dec anybody they want. You can declare war because someone has an ugly avatar, a silly name, support a different football team, prefer tea to coffee, etc etc etc. It's an internet spaceship game with a completely different set of rules to standard MMOs.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 17:51:00 - [94] Originally by: Alexandra Delarge Edited by: Alexandra Delarge on 11/01/2011 17:46:32 Originally by: Selinate Wardeccing for no reason is, buy definition, not a legitimate strategy since it isn't a strategy at all... You must be new to Eve. You don't need a reason or a strategy to war dec someone. Everybody is free to dec anybody they want. You can declare war because someone has an ugly avatar, a silly name, support a different football team, prefer tea to coffee, etc etc etc. It's an internet spaceship game with a completely different set of rules to standard MMOs. Think you misunderstand what Selinate is getting at, it more to do with the lack of planning (strategy) required initially although the strategy could come after the decision on it's implementation.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.11 17:56:00 - [95] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Alexandra Delarge Edited by: Alexandra Delarge on 11/01/2011 17:46:32 Originally by: Selinate Wardeccing for no reason is, buy definition, not a legitimate strategy since it isn't a strategy at all... You must be new to Eve. You don't need a reason or a strategy to war dec someone. Everybody is free to dec anybody they want. You can declare war because someone has an ugly avatar, a silly name, support a different football team, prefer tea to coffee, etc etc etc. It's an internet spaceship game with a completely different set of rules to standard MMOs. Think you misunderstand what Selinate is getting at, it more to do with the lack of planning (strategy) required initially although the strategy could come after the decision on it's implementation. ^^qft
Syn Callibri Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse Broken Chains Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.11 17:57:00 - [96] Originally by: Alexandra Delarge You must be new to Eve. You don't need a reason or a strategy to war dec someone. Everybody is free to dec anybody they want. You can declare war because someone has an ugly avatar, a silly name, support a different football team, prefer tea to coffee, etc etc etc. It's an internet spaceship game with a completely different set of rules to standard MMOs. ...and you must have no clue what the difference between game mechanics and good decision making is..."just because you CAN do someting, doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it". You CAN leap headlong off of a 50 story building (without a parachute), but SHOULD you? [21EL] Commander Tac-Ops / [21EL] I.S.C.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.01.11 17:58:00 - [97] Edited by: JC Anderson on 11/01/2011 18:01:17 Originally by: Syn Callibri ...and you must have no clue what the difference between game mechanics and good decision making is..."just because you CAN do someting, doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it". You CAN leap headlong off of a 50 story building (without a parachute), but SHOULD you? But.. we can have jet packs right? ;) Anyhow... A good portion of the war dec's are nothing more than a corp selecting other corps to fight for the hell of it. It is the case more often than not that the corp initiating the war dec knows absolutely nothing about the other corp outside of its name. Many will simply choose random corps based on member count. Some choose corps larger than their own because they want a good fight. Some choose mid ground and some simply want to gank as many people as possible and prefer to dec smaller corps than their own. Of course it doesn't always work out this way due to individual skill levels of the pilots on both sides. It's something that has always happened and something that people playing Eve need to accept. Your small industrial corp could very well be the next one to receive a dec from another corp out of something as simple as boredom.
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2011.01.11 18:04:00 - [98] Sounds like a thorough job is being done here on the original contract. I sure wouldn't call this griefing. The Patriot Act? Give me a break.
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.01.11 18:06:00 - [99] So, basically this is a thread in which a corp "were hired to war dec a group of griefers", but the OP doesn't know exactly what defines something as griefing. The comedy alt corp CEO mail aside, the crux of this thread is that the OP is dumb. Or did I miss something? Signature removed, please only use English on the forums. Zymurgist Okay sweet-cheeks xxx. Avon
Syn Callibri Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse Broken Chains Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.11 18:07:00 - [100] Originally by: JC Anderson But.. we can have jet packs right? ;) Smartazz. [21EL] Commander Tac-Ops / [21EL] I.S.C.

Chac San	Posted - 2011.01.11 20:16:00 - [101] Both sides of this are dumb. The CEO of the target alliance should just man up and either take his losses like a man and not throw in the cyber bullying crud The op is just flexing his epeen and ran off to the boards to flaunt it.
lachrymus Gallente Tie Rodarro Corp Hail Of God Society	Posted - 2011.01.11 20:20:00 - [102] Late to this but - as a member of a corp recently wardecced by Unfortunate Soldiers, I have to say they behaved like proper honourable soldiers. They are not griefers...
Major Snitch	Posted - 2011.01.11 20:32:00 - [103] Edited by: Major Snitch on 11/01/2011 20:35:34 CCP rule to remember .....You may not use ôrole-playingö as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy. You may not use any abusive, defamatory, ethnically or racially offensive, harassing, harmful, hateful, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, threatening or vulgar language. (Alternate spelling or partial masking of such words will be reprimanded in the same manner as the actual use of such words.) You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users. CCP reserves the right to wipe all user accounts and or inventory of characters whenever we deem it necessary. CCP reserves the right to close any user account and may do so for as long as it is deemed necessary. We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.
Corporal Punishment08 NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect	Posted - 2011.01.11 20:53:00 - [104] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Vabjekf But if someone does something that obviously does not benefit themselves at all its pretty clear they are just griefing. Lets look at what you just said there. A kid at school gets their dinner money taken by a school bully. So from your statement we can assume its not bullying/griefing because the bully benefits from it. Can you see why your statement is not right? What if the bully is poor and has no lunch money, and the kid he stole from was rich? didn't we all grow up on, and praise Robin Hood? Eat troll, eat. You must be hungry.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 23:11:00 - [105] Originally by: Corporal Punishment08 Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Vabjekf But if someone does something that obviously does not benefit themselves at all its pretty clear they are just griefing. Lets look at what you just said there. A kid at school gets their dinner money taken by a school bully. So from your statement we can assume its not bullying/griefing because the bully benefits from it. Can you see why your statement is not right? What if the bully is poor and has no lunch money, and the kid he stole from was rich? didn't we all grow up on, and praise Robin Hood? Eat troll, eat. You must be hungry. yawn You're an idiot!
GoBack 2WOW	Posted - 2011.01.11 23:18:00 - [106]
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 23:23:00 - [107] Originally by: GoBack 2WOW Did you come up with that name or did you mum help you? Why does everyone assume people are from WoW. News flash that's not the only other MMO around you know.
GoBack 2WOW	Posted - 2011.01.11 23:34:00 - [108]
Doddy Burning Vendetta	Posted - 2011.01.11 23:36:00 - [109] What constitutes griefing is pretty much down to ccps discretion, but this certainly isn't it. If you were to keep the war-decs up indefinately, war dec any other suspected alt corps, war dec any corp any of the members joined, suicide gank any members who went to npc corps and essentially didn't let any of them out of station ever again then maybe ccp would decide it was griefing. By my book the guy threatening you with the "patriot act" (lolamerica) is more griefing than anything you have done and you should petition him. He also needs to look up what cyber-terrorism actually is.
Corporal Punishment08 NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect	Posted - 2011.01.11 23:42:00 - [110] Originally by: Forum Guy Edited by: Forum Guy on 11/01/2011 23:31:45 Originally by: GoBack 2WOW Did you come up with that name or did your mum help you? Why does everyone assume people are from WoW. News flash that's not the only other MMO around you know. Oh so you're from some other lame MMO where everyone sits around and double fist-strokes eachother's epeens while dancing around in a field of flowers with rainbows in the background, where noone ever faces setbacks or hardships? Eat up poor troll. Your strength is getting low.

Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 23:45:00 - [111] Originally by: Corporal Punishment08 Originally by: Forum Guy Edited by: Forum Guy on 11/01/2011 23:31:45 Originally by: GoBack 2WOW Did you come up with that name or did your mum help you? Why does everyone assume people are from WoW. News flash that's not the only other MMO around you know. Oh so you're from some other lame MMO where everyone sits around and double fist-strokes eachother's epeens while dancing around in a field of flowers with rainbows in the background, where noone ever faces setbacks or hardships? Eat up poor troll. Your strength is getting low. If you really want to know, guess I could go back to the game I've played since 2005. But wait, no need I'm here already.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2011.01.11 23:55:00 - [112] Originally by: Forum Guy If you really want to know, guess I could go back to the game I've played since 2005. But wait, no need I'm here already. I'm surprised you stuck around so long given that you feel you have been griefed any time someone makes a move around you...
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.11 23:57:00 - [113] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Forum Guy If you really want to know, guess I could go back to the game I've played since 2005. But wait, no need I'm here already. I'm surprised you stuck around so long given that you feel you have been griefed any time someone makes a move around you... Ok, how did you come to that conclusion? I don't feel griefed, have you even read the thread?
Sig Sour	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:00:00 - [114] Edited by: Sig Sour on 12/01/2011 00:04:01 Originally by: Forum Guy Ok, how did you come to that conclusion? Because you were offended by someone by the name of goback towow posting a blank statement. Originally by: Forum Guy have you even read the thread? No I didn't read 4 pages of comments exchanged by idiots. How reckless of me.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:02:00 - [115] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Forum Guy Ok, how did you come to that conclusion? Because you were offended by someone by the name of goback towow posting a blank statement. is 2+2=5, also? Seems your logic and reasoning needs some work...
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:06:00 - [116] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Forum Guy Ok, how did you come to that conclusion? Because you were offended by someone by the name of goback towow posting a blank statement. I see you misunderstand (easily done as the medium is print), I'm not the sort of person that gets easily offended. As for the blank statement, the name was the statement.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:08:00 - [117] Originally by: Selinate Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Forum Guy Ok, how did you come to that conclusion? Because you were offended by someone by the name of goback towow posting a blank statement. is 2+2=5, also? Seems your logic and reasoning needs some work... You might want to set your forum alt as default so you do not make that mistake again. The logic is sound actually. ie: all ducks in the room quack when someone offends ducks - (Selinate quacks) - does this make Selinate a duck? y/n?
Mikhail Dmitriev	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:09:00 - [118] Originally by: Apollo Gabriel I help newbs out of w-space Soon I too will "help" newbs out of w-space. With missiles!
Sig Sour	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:10:00 - [119] Originally by: Forum Guy I'm not the sort of person that gets easily offended. So what, someone sold you a navy ship and it turns out it wasn't navy after all. Now you are going to post being all mad and stuff going on a rampage to turn Eve into happy land MMO?
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:11:00 - [120] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Selinate Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Forum Guy Ok, how did you come to that conclusion? Because you were offended by someone by the name of goback towow posting a blank statement. is 2+2=5, also? Seems your logic and reasoning needs some work... You might want to set your forum alt as default so you do not make that mistake again. The logic is sound actually. ie: all ducks in the room quack when someone offends ducks - (Selinate quacks) - does this make Selinate a duck? y/n? Sorry, but you are wrong again, Selinate is not an alt of mine. This is my only alt.

Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:13:00 - [121] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Forum Guy I'm not the sort of person that gets easily offended. So what, someone sold you a navy ship and it turns out it wasn't navy after all. Now you are going to post being all mad and stuff going on a rampage to turn Eve into happy land MMO? Ok now you are just trolling, maybe you should think about writing fiction. But then again I see you do already.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:17:00 - [122] Edited by: Selinate on 12/01/2011 00:18:44 Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Selinate Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Forum Guy Ok, how did you come to that conclusion? Because you were offended by someone by the name of goback towow posting a blank statement. is 2+2=5, also? Seems your logic and reasoning needs some work... You might want to set your forum alt as default so you do not make that mistake again. The logic is sound actually. ie: all ducks in the room quack when someone offends ducks - (Selinate quacks) - does this make Selinate a duck? y/n? Forum alt? Your logic is flawed again. Forum guy is not my alt. Nice try though. Your original logic flaw was the fact that an idiot posting as a get back 2 wow character does not constitute griefing, and is just an idiot. Someone getting annoyed at this and commenting about it does not necessarily mean that person is oversensitive. You are an idiot.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:21:00 - [123] Originally by: Selinate Forum alt? Your logic is flawed again. Forum guy is not my alt. Nice try though. This is why you deny with both your characters to make sure that you try to cover it up completely. Nice try yourself. Originally by: Forum Guy Ok now you are just trolling, maybe you should think about writing fiction. But then again I see you do already. Seriously if you cant handle normal PVP in Eve and you think its griefing to the point where you will entertain an argument about greifing in Eve.... go back to WoW.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:22:00 - [124] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Selinate Forum alt? Your logic is flawed again. Forum guy is not my alt. Nice try though. This is why you deny with both your characters to make sure that you try to cover it up completely. Nice try yourself. Originally by: Forum Guy Ok now you are just trolling, maybe you should think about writing fiction. But then again I see you do already. Seriously if you cant handle normal PVP in Eve and you think its griefing to the point where you will entertain an argument about greifing in Eve.... go back to WoW. LOL you honestly are a fool. Just because 2 people agree that you're an idiot, they MUST be the same person! Wow, this is the second time someone has mistaken me for being the same person as another character in this game.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:24:00 - [125] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Selinate Forum alt? Your logic is flawed again. Forum guy is not my alt. Nice try though. This is why you deny with both your characters to make sure that you try to cover it up completely. Nice try yourself. Originally by: Forum Guy Ok now you are just trolling, maybe you should think about writing fiction. But then again I see you do already. Seriously if you cant handle normal PVP in Eve and you think its griefing to the point where you will entertain an argument about greifing in Eve.... go back to WoW. I'm actually a purple 3 headed hydra, you won't believe the truth so you will probably believe that.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:27:00 - [126] Originally by: Forum Guy I'm actually a purple 3 headed hydra, you won't believe the truth so you will probably believe that. Hydras have 9 heads.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:29:00 - [127] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Forum Guy I'm actually a purple 3 headed hydra, you won't believe the truth so you will probably believe that. Hydras have 9 heads. Apparently this one doesn't. That's why he specified "3 heads".
Sig Sour	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:31:00 - [128] Originally by: Selinate Apparently this one doesn't. That's why he specified "3 heads". If you want to make up something you should at least get somewhat educated on the topic.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:34:00 - [129] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Selinate Apparently this one doesn't. That's why he specified "3 heads". If you want to make up something you should at least get somewhat educated on the topic. Same goes for you, claiming that Forum Guy is my alt.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:37:00 - [130] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Selinate Apparently this one doesn't. That's why he specified "3 heads". If you want to make up something you should at least get somewhat educated on the topic. It's actually a many headed serpent, 9 heads depends what film you watch or drawing you have seen. After all how do you portray a many headed serpent with out quantifying it.

Sig Sour	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:38:00 - [131] Originally by: Selinate Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Selinate Apparently this one doesn't. That's why he specified "3 heads". If you want to make up something you should at least get somewhat educated on the topic. Same goes for you, claiming that Forum Guy is my alt. It has already been proven that Forum Guy is your alt. You are just mad that your lies have been exposed as well as your lack of knowledge on hydras.
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:38:00 - [132] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Forum Guy I'm actually a purple 3 headed hydra, you won't believe the truth so you will probably believe that. Hydras have 9 heads. Actually, whilst 9 is frequently quoted number, the actual amount of heads varies greatly in the Greek texts. Signature removed, please only use English on the forums. Zymurgist Okay sweet-cheeks xxx. Avon
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:39:00 - [133] Originally by: Avon Actually, whilst 9 is frequently quoted number, the actual amount of heads varies greatly in the Greek texts. Did you read the actual Greek texts? -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Sig Sour	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:40:00 - [134] Originally by: Forum Guy It's actually a many headed serpent, 9 heads depends what film you watch or drawing you have seen. After all how do you portray a many headed serpent with out quantifying it. No THE hydra, the one that Hercules killed, had 9 heads. You really shouldn't dismember mythology like that.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:40:00 - [135] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Selinate Same goes for you, claiming that Forum Guy is my alt. It has already been proven that Forum Guy is your alt. You are just mad that your lies have been exposed as well as your lack of knowledge on hydras. Proof? Again, just because 2 people (and one of us vehemently) agree that you are an idiot does not mean they MUST be the same person.
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:42:00 - [136] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Avon Actually, whilst 9 is frequently quoted number, the actual amount of heads varies greatly in the Greek texts. Did you read the actual Greek texts? -Liang I badly translated 2 once with the help of my classics teacher. Bad days. Signature removed, please only use English on the forums. Zymurgist Okay sweet-cheeks xxx. Avon
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:42:00 - [137] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Selinate Same goes for you, claiming that Forum Guy is my alt. It has already been proven that Forum Guy is your alt. You are just mad that your lies have been exposed as well as your lack of knowledge on hydras. Proof? Again, just because 2 people (and one of us vehemently) agree that you are an idiot does not mean they MUST be the same person.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:45:00 - [138] Originally by: Avon I badly translated 2 once with the help of my classics teacher. Bad days. That's pretty cool. Do you happen to remember how many heads there were on the Hydras in the various texts? -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:50:00 - [139] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Avon I badly translated 2 once with the help of my classics teacher. Bad days. That's pretty cool. Do you happen to remember how many heads there were on the Hydras in the various texts? -Liang Honestly, no. I remember one gave the impression of a "swarm" of heads, but it was all a long time ago. (My education in the classics, not the Hydra - remarkable though it may seem that was even longer ago). I could probably check out some of the versions I still have, but I'd struggle with the Greek ones. I would probably be okay with the latin translations I have, but then we are moving further away from the source material I guess. Signature removed, please only use English on the forums. Zymurgist Okay sweet-cheeks xxx. Avon
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:51:00 - [140] Edited by: Forum Guy on 12/01/2011 00:51:15 Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Forum Guy It's actually a many headed serpent, 9 heads depends what film you watch or drawing you have seen. After all how do you portray a many headed serpent with out quantifying it. No THE hydra, the one that Hercules killed, had 9 heads. You really shouldn't dismember mythology like that. Like I said it's a many headed hydra they can't illustrate a many headed hydra without giving it a quantity. It could just as easily have been 8 or 10. Maybe 9 was just more aesthetically pleasing.

Sig Sour	Posted - 2011.01.12 00:52:00 - [141] Originally by: Avon Honestly, no. I remember one gave the impression of a "swarm" of heads, but it was all a long time ago. It was 9.
Taedrin Gallente The Green Cross Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.01.12 01:00:00 - [142] Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Taedrin The OP definitely offered several terms: he wanted an Orca and a Rattlesnake dead and on their killboard. As much as I am opposed to kill mail whoring, this is definitely not griefing. He certainly wanted that but not from the corp that he was contracted to war-dec. I hate to be late, but I was at class all afternoon. Whether or not you were hired to wardec someone is irrelevant to the argument. If it were relevant, then it would only imply that the "blame" would pass from the corporation conducting the wardec to the person who hired them. It would not change the "ethicality" of the wardec itself. Thus being hired to wardec a corporation or doing so "for no reason" has nothing to do with offering them terms of surrender, and does not change the fact that offering terms of surrender gives the victim a "way out". Even if these terms are impossible, the corporation can disband and the members go back to an NPC corp. ---------- Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
Sadayiel Caldari Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2011.01.12 01:06:00 - [143] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Avon Honestly, no. I remember one gave the impression of a "swarm" of heads, but it was all a long time ago. It was 9. it's commonly accepted between 5 and one hundred, but due some text, now it is considered 9 heads now if you wish to come and claim ur right, then i suggest go meet some ancient greek professor and discuss this with him about the proper text and proper translation of ancient greek to english.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.12 01:08:00 - [144] Edited by: Selinate on 12/01/2011 01:08:11 Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Avon Honestly, no. I remember one gave the impression of a "swarm" of heads, but it was all a long time ago. It was 9. The internetz disagree Gives a descripton of the hydra with the info on the constellation. Simply says the original poets said that the Hydra had more heads than a vase painter could paint. Specifically says "the number of heads vary" While the internetz is not always right, it is generally accepted that internetz > you.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2011.01.12 01:13:00 - [145] Originally by: Taedrin Originally by: Forum Guy Originally by: Taedrin The OP definitely offered several terms: he wanted an Orca and a Rattlesnake dead and on their killboard. As much as I am opposed to kill mail whoring, this is definitely not griefing. He certainly wanted that but not from the corp that he was contracted to war-dec. I hate to be late, but I was at class all afternoon. Whether or not you were hired to wardec someone is irrelevant to the argument. If it were relevant, then it would only imply that the "blame" would pass from the corporation conducting the wardec to the person who hired them. It would not change the "ethicality" of the wardec itself. Thus being hired to wardec a corporation or doing so "for no reason" has nothing to do with offering them terms of surrender, and does not change the fact that offering terms of surrender gives the victim a "way out". Even if these terms are impossible, the corporation can disband and the members go back to an NPC corp. Ok took me little while to see where you were coming from in response to my comment. I should have made it clearer, I was refering to the Orca and Rattlesnake not the terms offered.
Sadayiel Caldari Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2011.01.12 01:14:00 - [146] also as selinate points in some text, the hydra gets killed with fire, in other the monster had only 1 true mortal head, on another the hydra own blood it's so poisonous that after cover heracles sword it poison and kills the hydra.. good thing about greek mythos is that almost any one of them have like 5or 6 variations.
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.01.12 01:18:00 - [147] Edited by: Avon on 12/01/2011 01:18:55 Originally by: Sadayiel also as selinate points in some text, the hydra gets killed with fire, in other the monster had only 1 true mortal head, on another the hydra own blood it's so poisonous that after cover heracles sword it poison and kills the hydra.. good thing about greek mythos is that almost any one of them have like 5or 6 variations. Or 9. Sorry, I just had to do it :P serpens, quinquaginta habens capita, vel, ut quidam di****, septem Signature removed, please only use English on the forums. Zymurgist Okay sweet-cheeks xxx. Avon
Nyrawin	Posted - 2011.01.12 01:18:00 - [148] If you are unsure if something could be classed as griefing imho safe bet is to write petition to GMs about it. If they say it is not griefing then it is not griefing.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.01.12 02:33:00 - [149] Originally by: Forum Guy I'm actually a purple 3 headed hydra, you won't believe the truth so you will probably believe that. Aww man I bet you drop phat lewtz. <---(Is that proper leet speak terminology?) Anyhow.... I forgot what the heck this thread is about. :/
Jovan Geldon Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire	Posted - 2011.01.12 02:41:00 - [150] Originally by: Selinate herp Originally by: Forum Guy derp Originally by: Sig Sour durr Get a ****ing room

Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.12 03:23:00 - [151] Originally by: Jovan Geldon Originally by: Selinate herp Originally by: Forum Guy derp Originally by: Sig Sour durr Get a ****ing room Yes, you have no wit, give us some more witless comments, plz :P
Jane Griffin	Posted - 2011.01.12 05:22:00 - [152] Originally by: Selinate Edited by: Selinate on 11/01/2011 23:11:42 Originally by: Jane Griffin Wardec for any or no reason is a legitimate strategy. Aimed at characters or players. Leaving corp to avoid wardec is a legitimate strategy. Staying docked to avoid pvp is a legitimate strategy. There is balance here. Wardeccing for no reason is, by definition, not a legitimate strategy since it isn't a strategy at all... Are you really that detached from the GAME? The objective of pvp was implied by the OP. If the objective is to have pvp in empire, then a wardec for any or no further reason is a strategy to reach that objective. If you dont want empire pvp then a wardec is probably a bad idea and no doubt would be a mistake in strategy if you accidentally wardeced someone.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.12 05:25:00 - [153] Originally by: Jane Griffin Originally by: Selinate Edited by: Selinate on 11/01/2011 23:11:42 Originally by: Jane Griffin Wardec for any or no reason is a legitimate strategy. Aimed at characters or players. Leaving corp to avoid wardec is a legitimate strategy. Staying docked to avoid pvp is a legitimate strategy. There is balance here. Wardeccing for no reason is, by definition, not a legitimate strategy since it isn't a strategy at all... Are you really that detached from the GAME? The objective of pvp was implied by the OP. If the objective is to have pvp in empire, then a wardec for any or no further reason is a strategy to reach that objective. If you dont want empire pvp then a wardec is probably a bad idea and no doubt would be a mistake in strategy if you accidentally wardeced someone. umad? Also, I hate to repeat myself, so just review the original post you quoted :P
Grath Telkin Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.01.12 05:28:00 - [154] We've found it, the worst thread to ever be on the GD forums. You're all ******ed.
Jane Griffin	Posted - 2011.01.12 05:46:00 - [155] Originally by: Selinate Originally by: Jane Griffin Originally by: Selinate Edited by: Selinate on 11/01/2011 23:11:42 Originally by: Jane Griffin Wardec for any or no reason is a legitimate strategy. Aimed at characters or players. Leaving corp to avoid wardec is a legitimate strategy. Staying docked to avoid pvp is a legitimate strategy. There is balance here. Wardeccing for no reason is, by definition, not a legitimate strategy since it isn't a strategy at all... Are you really that detached from the GAME? The objective of pvp was implied by the OP. If the objective is to have pvp in empire, then a wardec for any or no further reason is a strategy to reach that objective. If you dont want empire pvp then a wardec is probably a bad idea and no doubt would be a mistake in strategy if you accidentally wardeced someone. umad? Also, I hate to repeat myself, so just review the original post you quoted :P You said wardeccing for no reason wasnt a strategy at all, i said that if the objective was to have pvp in empire then a wardec is a legitimate strategy, and that empire pvp was implied in the OP. What am i not getting? if you ask me to reread a post that i already have shown to be erroneous i will assume simple trolling. What makes you think i was mad?
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.12 05:52:00 - [156] Originally by: Jane Griffin You said wardeccing for no reason wasnt a strategy at all, i said that if the objective was to have pvp in empire then a wardec is a legitimate strategy, and that empire pvp was implied in the OP. What am i not getting? if you ask me to reread a post that i already have shown to be erroneous i will assume simple trolling. What makes you think i was mad? You never showed my post to be erroneous. Try again.
Jane Griffin	Posted - 2011.01.12 06:12:00 - [157] Originally by: Selinate Originally by: Jane Griffin You said wardeccing for no reason wasnt a strategy at all, i said that if the objective was to have pvp in empire then a wardec is a legitimate strategy, and that empire pvp was implied in the OP. What am i not getting? if you ask me to reread a post that i already have shown to be erroneous i will assume simple trolling. What makes you think i was mad? You never showed my post to be erroneous. Try again. You said there was no strategy to wardecing for no reason. I said that if there was an objective to get empire pvp then a wardec is a legitimate strategy even if there were no other reasons. The want for empire pvp is implied in the context of the thread. THAT, actually does prove your initial post to be erroneous at best and now probable trolling at worst. And to elucidate, this wasnt a 'second try' at this, it was me explaining to a troll what was already quite clear. I guess in that case your trolling was successful.
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2011.01.12 06:34:00 - [158] Edited by: Lillith Starfire on 12/01/2011 06:34:08 Originally by: Grath Telkin We've found it, the worst thread to ever be on the GD forums. You're all ******ed. Actually it wasn't so bad up until some people started to compare how big their snake was. Or something.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.12 08:12:00 - [159] griefing: when it's about the person, not the character.
Rellik B00n Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2011.01.12 11:17:00 - [160] I don't know who the people that play eve are anymore how the **** did this get to 6 pages? Here is a summary: Player plays eve, gets comedy mail. The end. Im assuming the real reason this is at 6 pages is because you are all bored at work, like me . -hi sec lolwarrior-

Alexandra Delarge Gallente The Korova	Posted - 2011.01.12 18:02:00 - [161] Originally by: Syn Callibri Originally by: Alexandra Delarge You must be new to Eve. You don't need a reason or a strategy to war dec someone. Everybody is free to dec anybody they want. You can declare war because someone has an ugly avatar, a silly name, support a different football team, prefer tea to coffee, etc etc etc. It's an internet spaceship game with a completely different set of rules to standard MMOs. ...and you must have no clue what the difference between game mechanics and good decision making is..."just because you CAN do someting, doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it". You CAN leap headlong off of a 50 story building (without a parachute), but SHOULD you? And you seem to have trouble seperating doing something suicidal in real life to doing something for fun in a video game.
Syn Callibri Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse Broken Chains Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.12 18:33:00 - [162] Edited by: Syn Callibri on 12/01/2011 18:33:48 Originally by: Alexandra Delarge Originally by: Syn Callibri Originally by: Alexandra Delarge You must be new to Eve. You don't need a reason or a strategy to war dec someone. Everybody is free to dec anybody they want. You can declare war because someone has an ugly avatar, a silly name, support a different football team, prefer tea to coffee, etc etc etc. It's an internet spaceship game with a completely different set of rules to standard MMOs. ...and you must have no clue what the difference between game mechanics and good decision making is..."just because you CAN do someting, doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it". You CAN leap headlong off of a 50 story building (without a parachute), but SHOULD you? And you seem to have trouble seperating doing something suicidal in real life to doing something for fun in a video game. Thank you for providing the assembled thread posters with conclusive evidence that you really are a bigger idiot than I gave you credit for... btw...the short bus to troll-ville is that way. [21EL] Commander Tac-Ops / [21EL] I.S.C.
X Dead	Posted - 2011.01.12 20:39:00 - [163] I may be wrong (and often am) but as a professional mercenary you should consider the fact that you gained intelligence about the activities of parties related to your primary designated target. As a value-add proposition to your employer, you can then ask for guidance on how the employer would prefer this to be actioned (leave alone, harass, infiltrate, etc). Either as a pro bono add on or for a fee (if you don't get paid it's a gift or a hobby and you ain't really mercing!). So, you get your response to the new target by default: "Intelligenace has revealed association to XX and our employer has instructed for us to challnge this association in this manner". Striking allies of targets to reduce support (physical, logistical, psychological)is a valid war tactic
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2011.01.12 22:12:00 - [164] Edited by: ShahFluffers on 12/01/2011 22:13:36 Waaaaaaaiiiiiit... how did this go from OP asking if he is griefing or not to; "stroke your epeen, you have done well"... to RL laws and semantic shell games on "what is griefing?"... to "the OP is dumb"... to Greek mythology... to "how many heads did the Hydra have?"... to a peeing contest between forum prostitutes? ... I'm confused. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Michwich	Posted - 2011.01.12 22:43:00 - [165] Edited by: Michwich on 12/01/2011 22:44:59 You can wardec whoever you want why give a reason? Oh right, roleplaying.... sigh pick one or the other, you want someone dead then do what it takes, you want to play mr diplomat then.. be consistent, dont do it, you were hired to wardec a corp. You may lose your reputation and potential business if youre seen as being personal instead of professional. Go back to your employer and tell them the situation and ask for more pay if they want you to wardec another corp.
Magnus Orin Minmatar United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2011.01.12 23:48:00 - [166] Confirming that the OP is a terrorist. Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you.


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