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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.02.19 09:54:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Absolute standard fittings, armor Tempest...
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Djerin
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.02.19 10:10:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Omara Otawan *EFT warrioring*
Get out! We're talking about Eve here, not about some EFT fittings... ---- Sarmaul's crosstrainorgtfo |
Gabriel Karade
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.02.19 11:53:00 -
[243]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 19/02/2011 11:55:44
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Joss56
By specific ship bonus and yes, sometimes you don't hit stuff (bs vs bs sized) when you are supposed to use the weapon systems having the gratest tracking of all close range weapons, it's ridiculous at that point.
If you cannot hit battleship targets with large blasters, you are doing something very stupid and the issue is on your end, sorry.
I do take issue with this knee jerk "if you can't hit Battleships..." because it ignores some very obvious flaws with the tracking formula (oh hai fixed 'sig radius').
For example just plug the numbers into the tracking formula, using Ion II's (better balance of damage vs. tracking) against a Battleship-sized target with perfect skills and implants; even with transversal velocities at 100m/sec, and be realistic - no engagement is going to ever start perfectly, especially when you have to MWD a battleship-sized hunk of metal into range - and at the 3.375km optimal range you miss 10% of the time. Bump that up to 200 m/sec and you miss just over 30% of the time.
Seriously? 10% misses when IÆm going at my platformÆs (a plated Megathron for example) base speed?....
(Re-run those numbers on a non-bonused ship and they are 15% and 45%.)
Therefore while yes, you are doing something very wrong if you can 'never' hit a Battleship, when you take into account a real engagement, with MWD sprint to target, Battleship-sized momentum when coasting, real effect that tracking has on the quality of hits... it isn't the same rosey EFT picture lots of people on these forums fall into the trap of believing. Of course you can throw your ship around to minimise transversal, carefully micromanage the range, but it does eventually come down to ôWhatÆs the point? hardly had a DPS advantage in the first place û fly something elseö (Note: IÆm as stubborn as a mule so I continue to fly my big blaster boats, but as kbÆs will attest, not very often these days).
I could go on all day about possible ways to change the tracking formula, of how 'sig radius' should be a function of distance e.t.c e.t.c but to be honest the easiest thing to do would be a fairly chunky boost to tracking speed, even up to 50% or more wouldn't have a massive impact on the smaller ships lots of people hold dear (due to the huge gulf in class sig radii) but would ensure 'good hits' at virtually all times vs. other Battleships.
BTW I donÆt disagree with your assessment on speed; that too is having/has had for a long while now, a massive impact.
P.s On the web front, I only just noticed (I don't usually look at them, hence being a couple of years late ) that a Domination Stasis Web Battery has a -97% velocity multiplier - and people are worried about moderate web bonuses on ships!
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
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Posted - 2011.02.19 12:36:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
P.s On the web front, I only just noticed (I don't usually look at them, hence being a couple of years late ) that a Domination Stasis Web Battery has a -97% velocity multiplier - and people are worried about moderate web bonuses on ships!
Maybe its got something to do with the fact that you dont anchor these web batteries everywhere you pvp... and every sane person stays the hell away from pos bashing as much as possible.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.19 12:56:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
when you take into account a real engagement, with MWD sprint to target, Battleship-sized momentum when coasting, real effect that tracking has on the quality of hits... it isn't the same rosey EFT picture lots of people on these forums fall into the trap of believing.
Dunno, it seems to me that it is namely people crying for tracking boost or whatnot who are pulling out graphs and EFT numbers how Blasters suck, not the other way round.
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Of course you can throw your ship around to minimise transversal, carefully micromanage the range, but it does eventually come down to ôWhatÆs the point?
There isn't. If you want effortless weapon platform, fly missile boat(or Minmatar).
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Space Tarantula Haklar
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Posted - 2011.02.19 13:10:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Kepakh (...)
There isn't. If you want effortless weapon platform, fly missile boat(or Minmatar).
... or Amarr... And it's actually the point this whole thread is about, "effortless" for way overall better results. funny isn't it
_________________________________________________________________________________ The day as*holes are sent into orbit, you won't stop rotating M. Audiard |
Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.19 13:13:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Space Tarantula Haklar
And it's actually the point this whole thread is about, "effortless" for way overall better results. funny isn't it
Err, not.
It is about balancing, something miles away from effortless. But I can understand that for some people those terms may blend into each other...
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Lain Umi
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Posted - 2011.02.19 14:08:00 -
[248]
Edited by: Lain Umi on 19/02/2011 14:08:58 experienced pvp'ers have been advocating for gallente changes for about a year and a half now. the issue is that all 3 races were buffed quite nicely, and all 3 offer cool unique things. the 3 are "balanced", in terms of contribution. gallente have a handful of boats that bring UTILITY to the table, and it's usually in the form of drones, which are subpar to the other weapon systems to begin with (other than sentries being superior to missiles for sniping).
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.02.19 14:23:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Djerin
Originally by: Omara Otawan *EFT warrioring*
Get out! We're talking about Eve here, not about some EFT fittings...
I'm pretty convinced by the fact of Gallente not getting any tweek or buff comes from EFT, it's the only logic explanation for dev's silence about gallente/failrails/blasters. Has almost everything in this suckers world people hide them selves from the truth behind numbers, the only thing they understand ****ing numbers, but whoever uses those ships knows pretty well that EFT numbers about Gallente are a great joke.
And most important, whoever understands that the formulas in are incorrect how can someone reasonable say "according to EFT". It's the only tool, i'm aware of that but whenever the tool uses broken stuff to give answers they/we should never use this tool. ________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
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freshspree
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Posted - 2011.02.19 16:13:00 -
[250]
I have no idea why i'm commenting on this thread again. Hybrids are going to get changed. I think i also linked the written report for the meeting CCP had with the CSM. So fear not ye hybrid users cause change is coming to a place near you. Meanwhile, i persuade thou to train other weapon systems. You are not limited to one weapon system so HTFU!
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.19 18:24:00 -
[251]
Originally by: freshspree
I have no idea why i'm commenting on this thread again. Hybrids are going to get changed. I think i also linked the written report for the meeting CCP had with the CSM. So fear not ye hybrid users cause change is coming to a place near you.
Making changes to Hybrids before balancing currently stupidly overpowered Minmatar is not going to bring any good and I more and more perceive blaster issues as a symptom, rather than specific imbalance.
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.02.19 18:26:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: freshspree
I have no idea why i'm commenting on this thread again. Hybrids are going to get changed. I think i also linked the written report for the meeting CCP had with the CSM. So fear not ye hybrid users cause change is coming to a place near you.
Making changes to Hybrids before balancing currently stupidly overpowered Minmatar is not going to bring any good and I more and more perceive blaster issues as a symptom, rather than specific imbalance.
Blasters & blaster ships are weak not because mini is good but because they are broken since QR. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2011.02.19 18:49:00 -
[253]
Originally by: freshspree
I have no idea why i'm commenting on this thread again. Hybrids are going to get changed. I think i also linked the written report for the meeting CCP had with the CSM. So fear not ye hybrid users cause change is coming to a place near you. Meanwhile, i persuade thou to train other weapon systems. You are not limited to one weapon system so HTFU!
um did you even read ccp's reply? they were stumped and skeptical, saying in other words that hybrids are fine and more data is needed. it was terrible. theres nothing on the horizon for hybrids.
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Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2011.02.19 18:51:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: freshspree
I have no idea why i'm commenting on this thread again. Hybrids are going to get changed. I think i also linked the written report for the meeting CCP had with the CSM. So fear not ye hybrid users cause change is coming to a place near you.
Making changes to Hybrids before balancing currently stupidly overpowered Minmatar is not going to bring any good and I more and more perceive blaster issues as a symptom, rather than specific imbalance.
projectiles, missiles and lasers all have their niche, and all got game. in other words, the game is well balanced if you take gallente out of the equation.
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Sonorah Crostansia
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2011.02.19 21:15:00 -
[255]
Fit projectiles to your Galente boats and be done with it.. Serious I plan on using Med projectiles on my Myrm soon because Gal weapons blow harder thatn a $2 hooker.
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freshspree
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Posted - 2011.02.20 06:48:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: freshspree
I have no idea why i'm commenting on this thread again. Hybrids are going to get changed. I think i also linked the written report for the meeting CCP had with the CSM. So fear not ye hybrid users cause change is coming to a place near you.
Making changes to Hybrids before balancing currently stupidly overpowered Minmatar is not going to bring any good and I more and more perceive blaster issues as a symptom, rather than specific imbalance.
A change to hybrids should make everything fine. No reason to change winmatar cause everything seems ok to me. Give range,tracking and damage where needed and hybrids will be fine. Let's not forget that galle ships have more ehp than minnie ships and making ridiculous changes to blasters in order to make them like autocannons will make them FOTM.
My advice is that CCP should propose changes to be made before implementing them. Cynabal, mach and dram also need speed or ehp reduction by 10-20%.
~Kepakh, you sound like a noob and not only do you mention overpowered like this is an arcade game you don't come up with points as to why minnie is overpowered. I don't care who and what your main is or has done but if you don't like hybrids why don't you train for something else?. Nobody is restricted to any one faction and you'll be mistaken to depend on only one faction.
There's no doubt that hybrids need to be changed but save yourself the time and train for the so called winmatar and be happy. If you don't want to, you can keep raging.
*yes, i use autocannons*
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Soon Shin
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Posted - 2011.02.20 07:27:00 -
[257]
Overall Hybrids need more damage. Blasters should receive a significant boost to their dps and tracking to justify their uses. I would say at least 30% more dps for the very small sphere of damage that they have compared to other weapons. Blasters need someone to tackle for them, there is no point in using a tackling ship and blaster ship, if 2 pulse laser or 2 autocannon or a 1/1 auto and pulse ship can kill the target faster. A tackling ship means a loss of dps from the tackling pilot.
Why bother getting damage and close up for a small increase in dps? It simply is not worth it. The dps needs to be significantly higher than it currently is for blasters to be useful.
Railguns should have an alpha between Artillery and Beams and dps between Artillery and Beams. A middle ground between Artillery and Beams. The size of Hybrid Charges should be halved. Railguns should have 30-50% increase in damage, but 10-25% decrease in ROF.
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freshspree
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Posted - 2011.02.20 07:45:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Soon Shin Overall Hybrids need more damage. Blasters should receive a significant boost to their dps and tracking to justify their uses. I would say at least 30% more dps for the very small sphere of damage that they have compared to other weapons. Blasters need someone to tackle for them, there is no point in using a tackling ship and blaster ship, if 2 pulse laser or 2 autocannon or a 1/1 auto and pulse ship can kill the target faster. A tackling ship means a loss of dps from the tackling pilot.
Why bother getting damage and close up for a small increase in dps? It simply is not worth it. The dps needs to be significantly higher than it currently is for blasters to be useful.
Railguns should have an alpha between Artillery and Beams and dps between Artillery and Beams. A middle ground between Artillery and Beams. The size of Hybrid Charges should be halved. Railguns should have 30-50% increase in damage, but 10-25% decrease in ROF.
I see where your coming from but 30% increase in damage sounds... It sounds like automatic K.O. when you get in range.
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Kn1v3s 999
Gallente Gung-Ho Guns
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Posted - 2011.02.20 10:21:00 -
[259]
when you get in range and when you can keep that range... so basically, very few times...
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.20 12:03:00 -
[260]
Originally by: freshspree
you don't come up with solid points as to why minnie is overpowered
There are 2 major issues with Minmatar:
1) Stupid projectile boost of last year. It needs to go away as there was never need for one in the first place. Rifters, Ruptures, Vagabonds nor Hurricanes and alike needed one.
2) Minmatar need their fitting to be nerfed.
Minmatar are out of balance by any means, especially on conceptual level. Minmatar are lacking drawbacks currently. They have speed, they have range, they have damage, they have EHP, their guns use no cap. I am wondering how you want to built reasonable Blaster platform right next to as you said 'Winmatar' without screwing up the game once again.
You cannot make any reasonable balance changes in a state of the game it currently is. If everyone is flying either Drake or Minmatar, you need to fix Drake and Minmatar before fixing anything else.
No more balancing of the type like Speed changes and Projectile buff - 2 debacles and there is no need for 3rd one.
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Bevil Smyth
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.02.20 12:48:00 -
[261]
Id like to see blaster fire have an innate slowing effect on ships when they hit, so you get dps and a webbing effect when you hit with them.
everything else about them can stay the same. ============================ 2003 and still alive! |
freshspree
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Posted - 2011.02.20 17:11:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: freshspree
you don't come up with solid points as to why minnie is overpowered
There are 2 major issues with Minmatar:
1) Stupid projectile boost of last year. It needs to go away as there was never need for one in the first place. Rifters, Ruptures, Vagabonds nor Hurricanes and alike needed one.
2) Minmatar need their fitting to be nerfed.
Minmatar are out of balance by any means, especially on conceptual level. Minmatar are lacking drawbacks currently. They have speed, they have range, they have damage, they have EHP, their guns use no cap. I am wondering how you want to built reasonable Blaster platform right next to as you said 'Winmatar' without screwing up the game once again.
You cannot make any reasonable balance changes in a state of the game it currently is. If everyone is flying either Drake or Minmatar, you need to fix Drake and Minmatar before fixing anything else.
No more balancing of the type like Speed changes and Projectile buff - 2 debacles and there is no need for 3rd one.
I still don't see everyone flying canes or is it me.
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Zemkhoff
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Posted - 2011.02.20 17:14:00 -
[263]
Edited by: Zemkhoff on 20/02/2011 17:15:57
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: freshspree
you don't come up with solid points as to why minnie is overpowered
There are 2 major issues with Minmatar:
1) Stupid projectile boost of last year. It needs to go away as there was never need for one in the first place. Rifters, Ruptures, Vagabonds nor Hurricanes and alike needed one.
2) Minmatar need their fitting to be nerfed.
Minmatar are out of balance by any means, especially on conceptual level. Minmatar are lacking drawbacks currently. They have speed, they have range, they have damage, they have EHP, their guns use no cap. I am wondering how you want to built reasonable Blaster platform right next to as you said 'Winmatar' without screwing up the game once again.
You cannot make any reasonable balance changes in a state of the game it currently is. If everyone is flying either Drake or Minmatar, you need to fix Drake and Minmatar before fixing anything else.
No more balancing of the type like Speed changes and Projectile buff - 2 debacles and there is no need for 3rd one.
There are many interesting ships besides hurricanes, ruptures, and vagabonds. The current FOTM of these ships + the angel line (which I do agree is OP and needs looking into) is more of a reflection on the state of the game than the state of these ships.
The increasing amount of blobbiness in EVE is what makes these ships so attractive. It's not that amarr is worse than minmatar, it has more to do with being in a slow plated ship when you know you are going to get out-numbered. You exaggerate two of your points greatly, a shield hurricane will do great damage, if it's within 20km and has barrage loaded. Anything beyond 20km and you are in reality doing 300-350 dps that decreases to less than 200 once you reach 30. Keep in mind that a drake does more up until its lock range.
As for the other two races, it's been proven that CCP shouldn't be trusted with a nerf bat and I'd rather have them buffed than have two interesting ship line-ups nerfed, because sure enough people will be whining about amarr just like they were before dominion.
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Songbird
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Posted - 2011.02.20 17:50:00 -
[264]
The way to fix failente and hybrids is to make rails the shortest range highest damage long range gun.
Right now tachyons have higher EFT DPS (46) than 800mm AC(43).And we're talking here long range vs short range weapon. Hell megabeams have 42.
If you give rails same dps as tachyons and severely cut their range, with a boost to tracking of course, you'll have an easy fix for hybrid weapons. And to top that all caldari boats that have bonus to range will start making sense.
BTW EFT dps for a 425mm rail is 36 - that's 10 less than tachyons or more than 20% difference.
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freshspree
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Posted - 2011.02.20 18:32:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: freshspree
you don't come up with solid points as to why minnie is overpowered
There are 2 major issues with Minmatar:
1) Stupid projectile boost of last year. It needs to go away as there was never need for one in the first place. Rifters, Ruptures, Vagabonds nor Hurricanes and alike needed one.
2) Minmatar need their fitting to be nerfed.
Minmatar are out of balance by any means, especially on conceptual level. Minmatar are lacking drawbacks currently. They have speed, they have range, they have damage, they have EHP, their guns use no cap. I am wondering how you want to built reasonable Blaster platform right next to as you said 'Winmatar' without screwing up the game once again.
You cannot make any reasonable balance changes in a state of the game it currently is. If everyone is flying either Drake or Minmatar, you need to fix Drake and Minmatar before fixing anything else.
No more balancing of the type like Speed changes and Projectile buff - 2 debacles and there is no need for 3rd one.
Lol, show me your cain that has EHP. plox!
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Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.02.20 20:08:00 -
[266]
adding insult to injury: has anyone looked at the current rates for gallente LP store items? or the usefullness of these items? ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
freshspree
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Posted - 2011.02.21 00:43:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Chi Quan adding insult to injury: has anyone looked at the current rates for gallente LP store items? or the usefullness of these items?
Lol, thx to the fail condition of hybrids.
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JoCool
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.21 01:49:00 -
[268]
To prevent the spirale from going up, we could just nerf all other weapons across the board by multiplying damage x 0.9
I'd love to see this (and more active tanking)
Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.02.21 02:05:00 -
[269]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 21/02/2011 02:09:34
Originally by: Djerin
Originally by: Omara Otawan *EFT warrioring*
Get out! We're talking about Eve here, not about some EFT fittings...
You must have gotten lost on your way to CAOD
Now I've got no idea what game you are playing, but the fact that some people actually posess the sheer audacity to complain about a ship needing 5 weapon upgrades being able to claw its niche back from a ship with 2 weapon upgrades just speaks volumes... never mind that ship being an armor tanker shoehorned into a shield fit.
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Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.02.22 17:20:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Omara Otawan ...stuff...
you MADE me do this. 'don't like being forced.
with drones no drones all had 1 web and 1 neut as applied effects
ships used: [Megathron, from TRI killboard] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Berserker II x4 Warrior II x1 Warrior II x4
NanoPest ArmorPest slightly changed the drones to reflect the 5 light ones you mentioned earlier -> 5 lights + 5 mediums
even eft says the mega sucks. what now? ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
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