EVE Search - Stacking penalty explained

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Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.01.30 10:21:00 - [1] I've seen a lot of people have the idea that it is useless to fit more than one module that that is subject to the stacking penalty. That is simply not the case. Let's say that we have a module that gives a 10% bonus. By fitting one you of course get the 10% bonus, when you fit 2 you get a total 17.4% bonus and so on all according to the stacking penalty formula. (mod_1...mod_n)^((1/n)^0.25) To make it more graphical for you have constructed this image. Here the solid line is if there were no stacking penalty at all and the crosses are the total bonus with a stacking penalty. I also made this image where you can see how much you get from each mod (of course this only makes sense when we have modules that give the same bonus. __________ Capacitor research
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.01.30 10:21:00 - [2] I've seen a lot of people have the idea that it is useless to fit more than one module that that is subject to the stacking penalty. That is simply not the case. Let's say that we have a module that gives a 10% bonus. By fitting one you of course get the 10% bonus, when you fit 2 you get a total 17.4% bonus and so on all according to the stacking penalty formula. (mod_1...mod_n)^((1/n)^0.25) To make it more graphical for you have constructed this image. Here the solid line is if there were no stacking penalty at all and the crosses are the total bonus with a stacking penalty. I also made this image where you can see how much you get from each mod (of course this only makes sense when we have modules that give the same bonus. Original Mr Floppyknickers sig
KingsGambit	Posted - 2005.01.30 10:36:00 - [3] That is great info...any chance of another graph identical to the first, except with grid lines and a different colour connecting the "with penalty" line? I can sorta understand the second one though my brain wants to see it the other way round! Perhaps a graph with an actual example (eg 1-8 Damage Mods)? Real numbers would be fantastic you cruncher you :) ------------- BYOC Crow Interceptor Deals
KingsGambit Caldari Knights	Posted - 2005.01.30 10:36:00 - [4] That is great info...any chance of another graph identical to the first, except with grid lines and a different colour connecting the "with penalty" line? I can sorta understand the second one though my brain wants to see it the other way round! Perhaps a graph with an actual example (eg 1-8 Damage Mods)? Real numbers would be fantastic you cruncher you :) ------------- My T2 Shop
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.01.30 10:49:00 - [5] Originally by: KingsGambit That is great info...any chance of another graph identical to the first, except with grid lines and a different colour connecting the "with penalty" line? I can sorta understand the second one though my brain wants to see it the other way round! Perhaps a graph with an actual example (eg 1-8 Damage Mods)? Real numbers would be fantastic you cruncher you :) I put grids on the images and they look now imo a whole lot better Heat sink II actually gives 10% increase to damage so those images could be useful for those gankageddon pilots. Will try to do one for ballistic controls I later today. __________ Capacitor research
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.01.30 10:49:00 - [6] Originally by: KingsGambit That is great info...any chance of another graph identical to the first, except with grid lines and a different colour connecting the "with penalty" line? I can sorta understand the second one though my brain wants to see it the other way round! Perhaps a graph with an actual example (eg 1-8 Damage Mods)? Real numbers would be fantastic you cruncher you :) I put grids on the images and they look now imo a whole lot better Heat sink II actually gives 10% increase to damage so those images could be useful for those gankageddon pilots. Will try to do one for ballistic controls I later today. Original Mr Floppyknickers sig
mahhy	Posted - 2005.01.30 11:32:00 - [7] Originally by: Dust Puppy I put grids on the images and they look now imo a whole lot better Heat sink II actually gives 10% increase to damage so those images could be useful for those gankageddon pilots. Will try to do one for ballistic controls I later today. Try the same graph with 150 low slots (yes 150) just for fun. Then look at the difference between a module and the previous module. You'll notice that the benefit the module gives compared to the previous module starts increasing at the 7th module for a 10% bonus. So module 7 gives a larger increase in damage mod (T2 HS being the example) compared to the 6th module. 8th module is in turn a bigger increase than 7th module. And it only grows from there. By the time you hit 29 modules, there is no stacking "penalty" and you end up gaining more than 10% Course who doesn't want a ship with 30 low slots! Course, if the percentage bonus increases, the point where you start seeing increased returns is decreased. With a 15% bonus you start seeing module 5 giving larger increases than module 4. Interesting thought considering where Tech 2 is and what we expect to see in Officer modules and future Tech 3.
mahhy MASS	Posted - 2005.01.30 11:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Dust Puppy I put grids on the images and they look now imo a whole lot better Heat sink II actually gives 10% increase to damage so those images could be useful for those gankageddon pilots. Will try to do one for ballistic controls I later today. Try the same graph with 150 low slots (yes 150) just for fun. Then look at the difference between a module and the previous module. You'll notice that the benefit the module gives compared to the previous module starts increasing at the 7th module for a 10% bonus. So module 7 gives a larger increase in damage mod (T2 HS being the example) compared to the 6th module. 8th module is in turn a bigger increase than 7th module. And it only grows from there. By the time you hit 29 modules, there is no stacking "penalty" and you end up gaining more than 10% Course who doesn't want a ship with 30 low slots! Course, if the percentage bonus increases, the point where you start seeing increased returns is decreased. With a 15% bonus you start seeing module 5 giving larger increases than module 4. Interesting thought considering where Tech 2 is and what we expect to see in Officer modules and future Tech 3.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.01.30 12:03:00 - [9] nada.kth.se for teh win! \o/ Very neat graphs and very informative. Thanks a lot -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2005.01.30 12:03:00 - [10] nada.kth.se for teh win! \o/ Very neat graphs and very informative. Thanks a lot - EVE is sick.
Hans Roaming	Posted - 2005.01.30 12:18:00 - [11] I think this should be made a sticky as it clearly illustrates the penalty, and big thanks to Dust Puppy. WTS: Male, 37, single, can fly starships, build rockets and dance Salsa. WTB: Female, plays eve, lives near London UK
Hans Roaming Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2005.01.30 12:18:00 - [12] I think this should be made a sticky as it clearly illustrates the penalty, and big thanks to Dust Puppy.
Dred 'Morte	Posted - 2005.01.30 12:19:00 - [13] I think same thing happens to shield resistance, example: if you have 60% resistance, enemy does you 40 damage, if you put a 50% hardener, you get something like 80% resistance, and then enemy does 20 damage. am i correct?
Dred 'Morte Winds of Dawn	Posted - 2005.01.30 12:19:00 - [14] I think same thing happens to shield resistance, example: if you have 60% resistance, enemy does you 40 damage, if you put a 50% hardener, you get something like 80% resistance, and then enemy does 20 damage. am i correct?
JaiMaster	Posted - 2005.01.30 15:34:00 - [15] correct you are Shields w/ photon hardners (mid) (50%) 0 - 100% dmg 1 - 50% dmg 2 - 25% dmg 3 - 12.5% dmg each additional mod halving the dmg done without it ------- Skill points. ISK. Ships, rare equipment. Its all just a means to an end... Your end.
JaiMaster Steel Frontier	Posted - 2005.01.30 15:34:00 - [16] correct you are Shields w/ photon hardners (mid) (50%) 0 - 100% dmg 1 - 50% dmg 2 - 25% dmg 3 - 12.5% dmg each additional mod halving the dmg done without it ------- Skill points. ISK. Ships, rare equipment. Its all just a means to an end... Your end.
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.01.30 22:03:00 - [17] Originally by: mahhy Try the same graph with 150 low slots (yes 150) just for fun. Then look at the difference between a module and the previous module. You'll notice that the benefit the module gives compared to the previous module starts increasing at the 7th module for a 10% bonus. So module 7 gives a larger increase in damage mod (T2 HS being the example) compared to the 6th module. 8th module is in turn a bigger increase than 7th module. And it only grows from there. By the time you hit 29 modules, there is no stacking "penalty" and you end up gaining more than 10% Course who doesn't want a ship with 30 low slots! Course, if the percentage bonus increases, the point where you start seeing increased returns is decreased. With a 15% bonus you start seeing module 5 giving larger increases than module 4. Interesting thought considering where Tech 2 is and what we expect to see in Officer modules and future Tech 3. Wow I always thought the bonus would just always decrease but you are right and I constructed a graph where we have 20% bonus instead of 10% and above the 5th module you start seeing the bonus increase again lookie __________ Capacitor research
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.01.30 22:03:00 - [18] Originally by: mahhy Try the same graph with 150 low slots (yes 150) just for fun. Then look at the difference between a module and the previous module. You'll notice that the benefit the module gives compared to the previous module starts increasing at the 7th module for a 10% bonus. So module 7 gives a larger increase in damage mod (T2 HS being the example) compared to the 6th module. 8th module is in turn a bigger increase than 7th module. And it only grows from there. By the time you hit 29 modules, there is no stacking "penalty" and you end up gaining more than 10% Course who doesn't want a ship with 30 low slots! Course, if the percentage bonus increases, the point where you start seeing increased returns is decreased. With a 15% bonus you start seeing module 5 giving larger increases than module 4. Interesting thought considering where Tech 2 is and what we expect to see in Officer modules and future Tech 3. Wow I always thought the bonus would just always decrease but you are right and I constructed a graph where we have 20% bonus instead of 10% and above the 5th module you start seeing the bonus increase again lookie Original Mr Floppyknickers sig
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.01.30 22:09:00 - [19] Originally by: JaiMaster correct you are Shields w/ photon hardners (mid) (50%) 0 - 100% dmg 1 - 50% dmg 2 - 25% dmg 3 - 12.5% dmg each additional mod halving the dmg done without it The shield hardeners do also have a stacking penalty so for using 2 of the same type you get (0.5*0.5)^((1/2)^0.25) = 0.312 or so you have a total resistance of 31.2%. Btw with a little rewriting of the formula you can shorten it if all the bonuses are the same to bonus^(n^0.75) Just remember if the bonus gives you 10% you put 1.1 and if it decreases by 10% you put in 0.9. __________ Capacitor research
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.01.30 22:09:00 - [20] Originally by: JaiMaster correct you are Shields w/ photon hardners (mid) (50%) 0 - 100% dmg 1 - 50% dmg 2 - 25% dmg 3 - 12.5% dmg each additional mod halving the dmg done without it The shield hardeners do also have a stacking penalty so for using 2 of the same type you get (0.50.5)^((1/2)^0.25) = 0.312 or so you have a total resistance of 31.2%. Btw with a little rewriting of the formula you can shorten it if all the bonuses are the same to bonus^(n^0.75) Just remember if the bonus gives you 10% you put 1.1 and if it decreases by 10% you put in 0.9. Original Mr Floppyknickers sig*
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.01.30 22:16:00 - [21] Another great post by Dust Puppy. Slight change of topic did you get time to look at the shield recharge curve? I am leaning towards saying its 2.6 to 2.7 at some where between 15 to 20%. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2005.01.30 22:16:00 - [22] Another great post by Dust Puppy. Slight change of topic did you get time to look at the shield recharge curve? I am leaning towards saying its 2.6 to 2.7 at some where between 15 to 20%. Passive shield tanking guide click here
qyros	Posted - 2005.01.30 22:40:00 - [23] Edited by: qyros on 30/01/2005 22:42:26 Originally by: Dust Puppy ... The shield hardeners do also have a stacking penalty so for using 2 of the same type you get (0.5*0.5)^((1/2)^0.25) = 0.312 or so you have a total resistance of 31.2%. ... Sorry professor, just a minor clarification and no dishonouring of your work. Resistance would be 1 - 0.312?.
qyros Stardust Heavy Industries Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2005.01.30 22:40:00 - [24] Edited by: qyros on 30/01/2005 22:42:26 Originally by: Dust Puppy ... The shield hardeners do also have a stacking penalty so for using 2 of the same type you get (0.5*0.5)^((1/2)^0.25) = 0.312 or so you have a total resistance of 31.2%. ... Sorry professor, just a minor clarification and no dishonouring of your work. Resistance would be 1 - 0.312?. _________________________________________________ Splagada - to reduce lag, CCP creates epileptics (Blinded On Jump)
dalman	Posted - 2005.01.30 23:00:00 - [25] Originally by: qyros Edited by: qyros on 30/01/2005 22:42:26 Originally by: Dust Puppy ... The shield hardeners do also have a stacking penalty so for using 2 of the same type you get (0.50.5)^((1/2)^0.25) = 0.312 or so you have a total resistance of 31.2%. ... Sorry professor, just a minor clarification and no dishonouring of your work. Resistance would be 1 - 0.312?. Yes, that is correct. When you look at resistance, the formula gives the % that go through. So for example, with 2 thermal shieldhardeners on, 0.312 0.8(from basic resistance) goes through, and the total resistance is 1 - 0.312 * 0.8. M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2005.01.30 23:00:00 - [26] Originally by: qyros Edited by: qyros on 30/01/2005 22:42:26 Originally by: Dust Puppy ... The shield hardeners do also have a stacking penalty so for using 2 of the same type you get (0.50.5)^((1/2)^0.25) = 0.312 or so you have a total resistance of 31.2%. ... Sorry professor, just a minor clarification and no dishonouring of your work. Resistance would be 1 - 0.312?. Yes, that is correct. When you look at resistance, the formula gives the % that go through. So for example, with 2 thermal shieldhardeners on, 0.312 0.8(from basic resistance) goes through, and the total resistance is 1 - 0.312 * 0.8. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.01.30 23:24:00 - [27] Edited by: Dust Puppy on 30/01/2005 23:24:26 Originally by: qyros Sorry professor, just a minor clarification and no dishonouring of your work. Resistance would be 1 - 0.312?. Thanks for that I always seem to think about how much damage leaks through Edit: Pottsey I made some measurements and replied in your old thread. __________ Capacitor research
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.01.30 23:24:00 - [28] Edited by: Dust Puppy on 30/01/2005 23:24:26 Originally by: qyros Sorry professor, just a minor clarification and no dishonouring of your work. Resistance would be 1 - 0.312?. Thanks for that I always seem to think about how much damage leaks through Edit: Pottsey I made some measurements and replied in your old thread. Original Mr Floppyknickers sig
Jack Winters	Posted - 2005.01.31 00:08:00 - [29] Do remember that the skill Tactical Shield Manipulation effects the damage that go thru, I do need some explanation to this. "Bonus: 5% reduced chance of damage penetrating the shield." Does this affect the ship with or without hardners. And at lvl5 how much damage does it stop? I'm Currently using a Ferox for agent level 3 missions, With my current shield tank, the rats don't get more than 0.1-40 dmg thru. 2x Hardners for what ever rat I go up against. But I would love to know if I could get 100% resistance in one type of damage. (I got Battlecruiser lvl5 and Tactical Shield... lvl5) In my view it would never get to 100%, but to 99,99^e%, I am not sure hoping I'm wrong :) ---- "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed" - Darth Vader
Jack Winters untaught Ka-Tet	Posted - 2005.01.31 00:08:00 - [30] Do remember that the skill Tactical Shield Manipulation effects the damage that go thru, I do need some explanation to this. "Bonus: 5% reduced chance of damage penetrating the shield." Does this affect the ship with or without hardners. And at lvl5 how much damage does it stop? I'm Currently using a Ferox for agent level 3 missions, With my current shield tank, the rats don't get more than 0.1-40 dmg thru. 2x Hardners for what ever rat I go up against. But I would love to know if I could get 100% resistance in one type of damage. (I got Battlecruiser lvl5 and Tactical Shield... lvl5) In my view it would never get to 100%, but to 99,99^e%, I am not sure hoping I'm wrong :) ---- "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed" - Darth Vader

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