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flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:47:00 -
[61]
/me hands out the popcorn again ...
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:49:00 -
[62]
Originally by: flakeys /me hands out the popcorn again ...
The in game board for EVE: Online, the popular Internet space ship game, needs a :popcorn: emote. I promise to get this implemented if you vote for me for CSM.
Two Shots Goonwaffe |
Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:55:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: flakeys /me hands out the popcorn again ...
The in game board for EVE: Online, the popular Internet space ship game, needs a :popcorn: emote. I promise to get this implemented if you vote for me for CSM.
Sorry, my Goonvote slot has been filled by Kalrand already. You could get him to add that to his platform, though, and I'll support him stealing it from you.
*eats KalPopcorn* Wait... my investment! *tries to spit it back up* I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:01:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: flakeys /me hands out the popcorn again ...
The in game board for EVE: Online, the popular Internet space ship game, needs a :popcorn: emote. I promise to get this implemented if you vote for me for CSM.
Perhaps you can suggest it for the new forums?
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:10:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: flakeys /me hands out the popcorn again ...
The in game board for EVE: Online, the popular Internet space ship game, needs a :popcorn: emote. I promise to get this implemented if you vote for me for CSM.
Perhaps you can suggest it for the new forums?
Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Two Shots Goonwaffe |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:17:00 -
[66]
Quote:
I like how you completely avoided the point that was expressed in my post (which in case you or some reader didn't know was me contradicting you), and much like a greasy-palmed politician deftly side-stepped the issue to offer an endearing, rehearsed line about your outstanding character. Now that you've taken a moment to remind us all that you're a good person with enough moral fiber to pass a herd of buffalo through your ethical colon, would you care to actually address my counter-claim to your claim?
If you want that I don't avoid your points, please type them in an English that I can understand, because I don't know what I missed.
In any case I got my answer off a petition to a GM: posting in game mails and chatlogs is not permitted.
Giving a full API key to unknowns exposes to the possibility of the contents being posted on the forums, therefore the reply applies.
Iirc it's forbidden to post the petitions text but I'll privately send a link to a screenshot to those who want to check.
Finally, you are welcome to not share my principles. I don't mind at all. Everyone his ways. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:22:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Giving a full API key to unknowns exposes to the possibility of the contents being posted on the forums, therefore the reply applies.
Not the best of arguments. Sending an evemail exposes to the possibility of the contents being posted on the forums, therefore sending evemails is facilitating breaking the rules?
If posting it is against the rules, that's something the person posting it should consider.
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Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:37:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
In any case I got my answer off a petition to a GM: posting in game mails and chatlogs is not permitted.
It's not permitted to be posted on the eve forums. You can post the information on pastebin, your blog, your FB page, or anywhere else you like.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Giving a full API key to unknowns exposes to the possibility of the contents being posted on the forums, therefore the reply applies.
Emphasis mine. The same 'possibility' exists whether the recipient is 'known' or 'unkown.' Please point me to the part of the EULA that says it's ok to disseminate Eve mails to 'known' persons but forbidden to send them to 'unkown' persons. You are clinging to the argument that it's somehow against the EULA players to send full API to people you don't trust and simultaniously state that it's perfectly legit to send full API keys to you personally. It's either OK or not OK to send out full API info to third parties. It cannot be both. Pick a side of the fence and stick with it because you are digging yourself an ever deeper hole by trying to play both sides.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:46:00 -
[69]
Quote:
It's either OK or not OK to send out full API info to third parties. It cannot be both
It's OK and it's being done even at alliance level, the relevant recruitment officer or w/e is not going to disclose what they get.
On the contrary, posting an API code for public access is not going to "bind" anyone to keep the contents private.
If the email contained something worth posting (it doesn't, but the idea stands), you can stay sure someone would post it. Sure, CCP would remove since it is indeed forbidden (as I stated in the previous post) it but it'd be on EvE-Search anyway and then someone else would export it to some third party site and so on.
Also, about digging deeper holes: no problem with me. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:56:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Grimhowl on 25/02/2011 18:02:40
Originally by: Edwin Rothbard
:words: Pick a side of the fence and stick with it because you are digging yourself an ever deeper hole by trying to play both sides.
I don't believe VV is trying to imply that one is against EULA and the other isn't. In terms of risk, giving access to potentially a great many unknown people, someone out there may be tempted to read through mails and post them on forums. This is especially true if they read this thread and decide to do it just to be a jerk. Although I disagree with why you are at odds with VV's arguement, I agree that it wouldn't be against the EULA for the poster of API; the person who actually posted the mails on the forum would be the one in breach rather than the party that gave them access to those mails.
If, however, the API poster in question gave explicit instructions in locating a particular mail that said person wants the forum to pay specific attention to this may be a breach due to the intent to circumvent current rules by being a trixy little troll.
Most importantly, the reason posting such mails and chatlogs is, as I am being led to believe, against the rules would likely be to have in place a mechanism to punish someone for harassment or what have you by posting said logs and/or falsifying them. This is much the same as those weird laws states have like not allowing the consumption of icecream in the middle of the road. In this way, it can be punished or ignored as is made necessary by ambiguous situations that are left up to the discretion of a CCP rep. This is relevant because it means that said "breach" would, by my logic, be likely to be ignored. So, this whole line of conversation is pointless.
Signed, Unnecessarily Verbose Poster Due to Boredom at Work. I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:57:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Sure, CCP would remove since it is indeed forbidden
It's not forbidden based on the EULA or TOS (or even the forum rules). Though CCP is free to moderate their forums in any way they like, there is nothing against disclosing the information anywhere else (or even posting it here anyway, and see if it gets moderated - against the rules or not, I've seen plenty of reports of ingame conversations posted).
Note you are moving the goalpost: you went from a "violation of the EULA" to "CCP doesn't like if you do it on their turf" - quite a difference.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:08:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Sure, CCP would remove since it is indeed forbidden
It's not forbidden based on the EULA or TOS (or even the forum rules). Though CCP is free to moderate their forums in any way they like, there is nothing against disclosing the information anywhere else (or even posting it here anyway, and see if it gets moderated - against the rules or not, I've seen plenty of reports of ingame conversations posted).
Note you are moving the goalpost: you went from a "violation of the EULA" to "CCP doesn't like if you do it on their turf" - quite a difference.
These are the GM textual words:
"Posting in game mails and chatlogs is not permitted".
Also, as the poster above said, it's indeed a disclosure by proxy but by self opening oneself by publishing something meant to be private (full API key, else why make a limited one to start with) makes the discloser an accomplice.
I am decently sure that if I reported a post like: "Please remove that stuff because it's been API phished from private in game convo" the forum mod would, even if nowhere is presented this particular case. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:11:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Grimhowl
I don't believe VV is trying to imply that one is against EULA and the other isn't.
From post #10 of this thread:
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Giving out a full API key to unauthorized 3rd party will be a breach of his privacy AND possibly of the EULA.
From post #16:
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
As you may see by reading ANY of my recent (months?) audits, I always add a disclaimer about how I am against API mail phishing and will never read and much less post any mail.
And from post #66
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Giving a full API key to unknowns exposes to the possibility of the contents being posted on the forums, therefore the reply applies.
Clearly she believes it's against the EULA for anyone to send their full API to an 'uknown' third party unless that third party happens to be her.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:14:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/02/2011 18:15:50 Clearly your understanding of simple English is even worse than mine.
Odd that in your zeal to link post after post, you missed #69. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:17:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Clearly your understanding of simple English is even worse than mine.
Odd that in your zeal to link post after post, you missed #69.
And you missed TOS rule #18
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Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:21:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Edwin Rothbard Clearly she believes it's against the EULA for anyone to send their full API to an 'uknown' third party unless that third party happens to be her.
I disagree; the way VV's arguement read to me it was the potential exposure of chatlog screenshots containing private conversation of an undisclosed third party that was the *possible* breach. </readingcomprehension> I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:36:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Two Shots on 25/02/2011 18:37:15
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
It's either OK or not OK to send out full API info to third parties. It cannot be both
Oh my how ignorant you are. You have no idea the hilarity that gets reposted.
edit: oops
Two Shots Goonwaffe |
Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:37:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 25/02/2011 18:52:59
Originally by: cosmoray If I release my full API code, what are the dangers to my account?
I guess the main danger to "your account" is people won't trust _you_ anymore, as mail sent to you obviously is not being kept confidential, as you're right now disclosing stuff sent to you by others.
And for sure VV doesn't want it to be public, because forwarding screenies to you probably wasn't wished for by his "client" either?!
Both of you did grab into a pile of crap right here, about to endanger both of your accounts.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:41:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/02/2011 18:49:15
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Clearly your understanding of simple English is even worse than mine.
Odd that in your zeal to link post after post, you missed #69.
And you missed TOS rule #18
That's a statement off a policy, the rest of the GM text including his name or other sentences was not posted.
From
Website terms Of Service section 6.7:
Quote: 6.7. When submitting any comments in any form to the Web Site, whether it be via chat services, bulletin board services, customer feedback email, or the like you, are solely responsible for the content of any comments you make. You agree that no comments submitted by you to the Web Site will:
I violate any right of any third party, including but not limited to copyright, trademark, privacy, or other personal or proprietary rights;
...
IV contain any personal information (other than your email address or user name).
From:
EULA:
Quote:
User Content that you cause to be communicated to the System may not (i) violate any statute, rule, regulation or law; (ii) infringe or violate the intellectual property, proprietary, privacy or publicity rights of any third party; (iii) be defamatory, indecent, obscene, child ****ographic or harmful to minors; or (iv) contain any viruses, Trojan horses, disabling code, worms, time bombs, "clear GIFs," cancelbots or other computer programming or routines that are intended to, or which in fact, damage, detrimentally interfere with, monitor, intercept or expropriate any data, information, packets or personal information.
Quote:
And for sure VV doesn't want it to be public, because forwarding screenies to you for sure wasn't wished for by his "client" either
No, the client expressly contacted me so that I'd forward his request to Cosmoray (as he could not contact him despite repeated tries), I even told him that I'd need proof of the chat being genuine.
Quote:
probanly wasn't wished for by his "client" either?!
Not a client of mine, but he did wish for it as per the above. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Two Shots
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:54:00 -
[80]
You are trying to argue that the legal definition of privacy in the real world applies to the goings-on in a game where espionage is a valid part of game mechanic.
Two Shots Goonwaffe |
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Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:59:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Grimhowl on 25/02/2011 19:02:10
Originally by: Two Shots You are trying to argue that the legal definition of privacy in the real world applies to the goings-on in a game where espionage is a valid part of game mechanic.
Nah, cuz otherwise VV'd be saying it was against the rules to post on another site. The statement is just that doing that shiz in this specific forum is a problem. It's just a further unwanted side-effect that it can still be found even after removal from forums then put on third party site.
On a separate point, in the context of the forums, the real world definition of privacy is very relevant. Less so if constrained to in-game methods of communication. We are all sort of dancing in a grey area, though. - I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
Mister Rocknrolla
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:03:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha EULA:
Quote:
User Content that you cause to be communicated to the System may not (i) violate any statute, rule, regulation or law; (ii) infringe or violate the intellectual property, proprietary, privacy or publicity rights of any third party; (iii) be defamatory, indecent, obscene, child ****ographic or harmful to minors; or (iv) contain any viruses, Trojan horses, disabling code, worms, time bombs, "clear GIFs," cancelbots or other computer programming or routines that are intended to, or which in fact, damage, detrimentally interfere with, monitor, intercept or expropriate any data, information, packets or personal information.
Doesn't this mean that the original Evemail/chatlog was a EULA violation by disclosing personal/private info in-game?
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Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:05:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla Doesn't this mean that the original Evemail/chatlog was a EULA violation by disclosing personal/private info in-game?
I think that was the forum EULA not the one for the game you quoted. The Evemail was done outside the forum and so it doesn't apply. - I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
I AM SPARTACUS
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:10:00 -
[84]
Internet spaceship lawyers! In spaaaaaaaace!
I AM EULACUS!
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:11:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha [..] the client expressly contacted me so that I'd forward his request to Cosmoray [..] Not a client of mine, but he did wish for it as per the above.
I'm not sure how much of the "full story" you've been told. Always consider to just know half the truth. I will not go into detail as I honor my word, but I can say this: I did choose not to do business with him. Some stuff has to be considered way too dangerous in the EVE universe, even though it wouldn't be a strict EULA violation!!
Anyway: You, VV, did disclose myself having had contact with that "client" without asking me if that'd be fine with me. It was not. You, to a lesser extent, did the same what you blame cosmoray for right now.
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:14:00 -
[86]
All those quotes but not the one where you agree that you have no expectation of privacy (see post #25).
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:14:00 -
[87]
Quote:
You are trying to argue that the legal definition of privacy in the real world applies to the goings-on in a game where espionage is a valid part of game mechanic.
Before eve-mails could be leaked, espionage would go its merry way.
EvE mails are e(lectronic) mails in their effect, interface and appearance. It comes natural for people to disclose more about private matters with such media.
Furthermore eve mails were retroactively made public without any consent, (exactly like EvE Gate BTW).
There are things that are in a deep grey area and European people (including me) have their laws that protect privacy in a vastly broader way than other countries.
If the e-mails inside EvE would be demonstrated to be used in the same semantic way of RL emails this could cause issues, boureaucrats don't care about EULAS (easily voidable) and would harass CCP forever. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:19:00 -
[88]
Quote:
Anyway: You, VV, did disclose myself having had contact with that "client" without asking me if that'd be fine with me. It was not. You, to a lesser extent, did the same what you blame cosmoray for right now.
Nothing about you was even asked by me (nor I want to know) but freely stated by the guy and in any case I did not divulge my full API to slam it in the face of the world. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:22:00 -
[89]
Originally by: I AM SPARTACUS Internet spaceship lawyers! In spaaaaaaaace!
I AM EULACUS!
Can I be your sidekick? - I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:27:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Nothing about you was even asked by me (nor I want to know) but freely stated by the guy
And this does give you the right to forward it? If it'd give you that right then cosmoray had any right to forward his inbox to the world, too, as he for sure didn't ask to get contacted by yourself on behalf of that "client"...
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