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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2011.02.24 03:30:00 -
[1]
After reading several reviews about collateral and security, I realise I haven't been audited since 2008 for my first business. I plan to rectify this.
When I return from travelling (I may be back Friday) I will release my API details on MD, allowing EVERYONE to conduct there own audit of me.
You get to see my highs and lows, my collateral holding, my loans, my trades, ........ EVERYTHING
Over the weekend, I will announce time, I will release the LIMITED API code.
I will also make the FULL API code available to well known auditors if they want it.
I will post in this thread the time that I will release the API codes. Then you get to have some fun.
TRUE TRANSPARENCY!!!
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Misty McGinnity
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Posted - 2011.02.24 04:05:00 -
[2]
>implying you have only 1 account.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari
T2 Technologies Unlimited
SRS.
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Posted - 2011.02.24 05:10:00 -
[3]
Honestly...you shot down the purpose of an audit as soon as you made this thread. No audit since 2008 is enough time for you to hide whatever it is that needs hiding.
At this point, it only serves to verify a few facts about the business you run.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.02.24 05:15:00 -
[4]
Hardly everything if you're only releasing your limited code to the public and the full code only to that seething mass of ego that MD 'auditors' have become.
Also, you'll be amazed at how little interest there will be even in releasing your full code. With AATP's API being public, the dozens of people constantly demanding public oversight very vocally but never with any real follow up action failed to notice the BPOs being unlocked and contracted to another corp several weeks ago.
So all well and good offering this, but with the few drama mouths on this forum being all bark but no bite it's yet another weapon in the arsenal of the smoke and mirrors tactician. Just like 'audits', and 'trustees', and 'boards'.
Not in the Exchange, don't invest! |
Brock Nelson
Caldari
T2 Technologies Unlimited
SRS.
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Posted - 2011.02.24 05:28:00 -
[5]
I agree with Ray, all you're doing is just bowing to people who's trying to bring you down.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.02.24 10:04:00 -
[6]
I'm sure all Cosmoray's investors will be pleased as it's a step in the right direction not just for him but for MD as a whole.
And Ray - you still posting here?
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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.02.24 10:18:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Liberty Eternal
I'm sure all Cosmoray's investors will be pleased as it's a step in the right direction not just for him but for MD as a whole.
I doubt his current investors give a flying **** about it but I think some of his clients might be concerned that this doesn't compromise their confidentiality.
Joint Venture Conglomerate |
RAW23
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Posted - 2011.02.24 10:34:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
I'm sure all Cosmoray's investors will be pleased as it's a step in the right direction not just for him but for MD as a whole.
And Ray - you still posting here?
I think this kind of step is more helpful for future investors (either directly in Cosmo or indirectly through using him as a third party) than current ones in that it will allow for some kind of asset assessment. However, given that most of Cosmo's isk is, I understand, invested or loaned out privately it will be difficult to know what his actual NAV is.
Same applies to Ray. The value of making your api keys public is partly derived from making sure that the public know this, a fact that your communication strategy of acting as an information blackhole hardly supports. But the principle value of public api keys would be simply for new investors to confirm that you have what you say you have before investing. As to monitoring, this seems completely pointless given that you don't respond to basic information requests by your shareholders and there are, to my knowledge, no structures in place to stop you doing whatever you feel like. Despite all this, it is not a bad thing that the api is available for those who wish to avail themselves of it.
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.24 10:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jackie Fisher
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
I'm sure all Cosmoray's investors will be pleased as it's a step in the right direction not just for him but for MD as a whole.
I doubt his current investors give a flying **** about it but I think some of his clients might be concerned that this doesn't compromise their confidentiality.
Well the limited API will only reveal his characters on the account, skills, and wallet balance.
The full API to an auditor will of course reveal everything. However determining what is collateral and what Cosmo owns is impossible, but it will show who he is loaning ISK out to if there is a journal transaction for it.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.24 11:56:00 -
[10]
Cosmo, you and I had a customer (BP holding iirc) who refused to have his information given to 3rd parties in any way.
I stuck thru the MD flames to honor his will, what assurance may you give that you won't disclose that?
There is also a confidential mail I sent you with screenshots of in game chat off a customer of yours (that wanted to talk with me to send you his requests since you seem to be unreachable). Giving out a full API key to unauthorized 3rd party will be a breach of his privacy AND possibly of the EULA.
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
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Posted - 2011.02.24 13:00:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
...breach of his privacy AND possibly of the EULA.
LOL what? 
CCPDev> Good news everyone. We released a tool that allows anyone full access to your in game Eve mails through your full API key.
player123> Great! I'll start using is right away.
CCPDev> You can't.
player123> why not?
CCPDev > Because it violates the EULA.
You are making a vield legal thread against Cosmo. Don't do that. I understand that you don't want your super secret stuff out in the open for the world to see. Fair enough. All you had to say was "Cosmo I sent you some info in confidence in game and I expect you to keep it that way."
Of course you don't really believe it to be a violation of the EULA anyways. Otherwise you would turn down doing full-API audits on the grounds they could be a possible violation of the EULA.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2011.02.24 13:31:00 -
[12]
TBH I still don't really understand the differences between limited and full API.
I am only concerned here with account security. If I release my full API code, what are the dangers to my account?
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Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
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Posted - 2011.02.24 13:40:00 -
[13]
Originally by: cosmoray
If I release my full API code, what are the dangers to my account?
The crappy thing is it exposes your in game Eve mails. CCP is changing the API to be more granular so can toggle the mails on or off. This is my big complaint with the current API system. What isn't clear to me is whether deleted mails still show via the API. Someone else will have to chime in over other security concerns.
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Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.24 14:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
With AATP's API being public, the dozens of people constantly demanding public oversight very vocally but never with any real follow up action failed to notice the BPOs being unlocked and contracted to another corp several weeks ago.
Was that the big announcement?
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Marcus Baltar
Savaran Zhayedan Spah
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Posted - 2011.02.24 16:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Ray McCormack
With AATP's API being public, the dozens of people constantly demanding public oversight very vocally but never with any real follow up action failed to notice the BPOs being unlocked and contracted to another corp several weeks ago.
Was that the big announcement?
Probably.
Of course, the only "official" shares, AATPH, show no unlock or lock BPO votes (so where are the BPOs?) and contracts do not show with any API.
Even if you dug out the few mentions of the API on the forums I believe it goes through a proxy - the only link I found on the AATP website does not work.
Then there are the facts that a AATPH dividend was last paid in July 2010 and the last "balance sheet" in Septemner 2010 looked like this says what?
Cosmoray (back to the OP) - I do not believe releasing any API puts your actual account more at risk (I think the hacking risk is the same as not releasomg it?), but the in-game information is another matter.
Deleted evemails are probably not viewable, but then are no longer available as an in-game asset/confirmation.
--
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.24 16:57:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 24/02/2011 17:01:26
Quote:
You are making a vield legal threat against Cosmo. I understand that you don't want your super secret stuff out in the open for the world to see
It's not as easy as that.
A Cosmo customer (not mine, I don't recall about having heard of him before) contacted me so that I would contact him. The alledged reason is that Cosmo is not reachable.
Then he said me things to tell him with screenshots to "prove" it. He did not authorize others to look at his in game chat, I don't even think the EULA would allow for it and for sure I don't want consequences even with a 1% probability it's against the EULA.
As for the secret stuff, it's nothing really that important. I would not care to have that posted anywhere but the customer lack of authorization still stands.
Quote:
Of course you can't really believe it to be a violation of the EULA otherwise you would turn down doing full-API audits on the grounds they could be a possible violation of the EULA.
It does not apply. As you may see by reading ANY of my recent (months?) audits, I always add a disclaimer about how I am against API mail phishing and will never read and much less post any mail.
The possible recipients of Cosmo's API, though, never posted any disclaimer they wouldn't. They are not bound by any term.
Quote:
TBH I still don't really understand the differences between limited and full API.
I am only concerned here with account security. If I release my full API code, what are the dangers to my account?
No dangers to your account (*). Though, a guy with full API will directly or indirectly get:
- All your eve mails including full body text. None seems to know if such text may be retrieved even if you delete all your mails on your client side.
- Where you have any office, including low sec and 0.0
- Where you have a POS
- Where you hold collateral and whose guy the collateral is
- Who you loaned money to, including people who refused to appear on the forum.
(*) Actually there are some little dangers, in case you called your account in a common, certain way. With info you will post - even for a limited API key - it's possible to attempt a brute force attack directly on your true account. It's why CCP are going to remove that info given even by the limited API key.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.24 22:20:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
- Where you hold collateral and whose guy the collateral is
When did contracts get an API?
There is no way in hell to tell if the 100,000 units of Item X are yours or collateral. It just shows up as an asset at a certain location.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.24 22:40:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
- Where you hold collateral and whose guy the collateral is
When did contracts get an API?
There is no way in hell to tell if the 100,000 units of Item X are yours or collateral. It just shows up as an asset at a certain location.
You might find it odd, but not all those who give collateral to hold use a contract. Some want a direct trade.
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.24 22:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
You might find it odd, but not all those who give collateral to hold use a contract. Some want a direct trade.
True, though I prefer contracts as I have a record just in case of a computer failure on my end.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2011.02.24 23:00:00 -
[20]
Awesome!! go back about a year or two and on this forum is my limited API released and hasn't changed since it was originally generated.. It'll be nice to know another known face in MD isn't scared of releasing their API to the public..
Only took a couple of years extra time to do what you where pushed EBANK directors to do.. Congratulations for not being a hypocrite 
Yeah, I took the liberty of poking a stick because I raised the to challenge then, and proposed you do the same, but it never came about... until now 
Amarr for Life |
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Misty McGinnity
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Posted - 2011.02.24 23:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Hardly everything if you're only releasing your limited code to the public and the full code only to that seething mass of ego that MD 'auditors' have become.
So all well and good offering this, but with the few drama mouths on this forum being all bark but no bite it's yet another weapon in the arsenal of the smoke and mirrors tactician. Just like 'audits', and 'trustees', and 'boards'.
The bold part summarizes this thread well. much lol's
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.24 23:14:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Misty McGinnity
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Hardly everything if you're only releasing your limited code to the public and the full code only to that seething mass of ego that MD 'auditors' have become.
So all well and good offering this, but with the few drama mouths on this forum being all bark but no bite it's yet another weapon in the arsenal of the smoke and mirrors tactician. Just like 'audits', and 'trustees', and 'boards'.
The bold part summarizes this thread well. much lol's
/me looks around the thread
/me doesn't see anyone demanding his full API key.
Hell I wouldn't even think of asking for his full API key. I could care less.
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Misty McGinnity
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Posted - 2011.02.24 23:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Breaker77
/me looks around the thread
/me doesn't see anyone demanding his full API key.
Hell I wouldn't even think of asking for his full API key. I could care less.
u seem mad.
i was only pointing out that what ray posted was a very clever troll against auditors. your response makes me think that you are indeed a little bit butthurt.
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.02.24 23:41:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Misty McGinnity
ray...clever
 Should never be used in the same post.
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.02.25 00:01:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Giving out a full API key to unauthorized 3rd party will be a breach of his privacy AND possibly of the EULA.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
He did not authorize others to look at his in game chat, I don't even think the EULA would allow for it and for sure I don't want consequences even with a 1% probability it's against the EULA.
VV, you're full of ****e.
Firstly, the EULA is not an agreement between players but between CCP and individual players, so cosmoray only has to make sure he sticks to his agreement with CCP, and CCP gave him the API key as a safe way to release information on his character - it is up to him to decide who he wants to release it to.
Secondly the EULA explicitly mentions that you "have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms". Of course that's in there because CCP logs all conversations, but regardless of intention, this statement you and everyone else agreed to is still very much the opposite of what you're claiming would be in the EULA.
Next time you refer to a document, try reading it first.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.25 00:27:00 -
[26]
Quote:
VV, you're full of ****e
1) Never got why you are so depressingly confrontative (or worse) in the large majority of your replies to anyone.
2) CCP tends to forbid to repost even simple in game things, I don't want a 3rd party private convos being forwarded to another 3rd party that could even publish it in a nonconsensual way.
If I am overly conservative about EULAS and such, I will just exceed in safety. Not going to exceed in the opposite.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
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Posted - 2011.02.25 00:29:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Selene D''Celeste on 25/02/2011 00:36:28
Estel hit the nail on the head. Giving out an API would never be against the EULA, unless it was stolen and you were violating the EULA via impersonation.
Originally by: SencneS
Awesome!! go back about a year or two and on this forum is my limited API released and hasn't changed since it was originally generated.. It'll be nice to know another known face in MD isn't scared of releasing their API to the public..
Only took a couple of years extra time to do what you where pushed EBANK directors to do.. Congratulations for not being a hypocrite
Yeah, I took the liberty of poking a stick because I raised the to challenge then, and proposed you do the same, but it never came about... until now
Aside from the fact that a limited API key is pretty useless with regards to security, have you even done anything in the past two years that didn't involve speaking without thinking, let alone anything useful?
______________________________
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.25 00:35:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste
Estel hit the nail on the head. Giving out an API would never be against the EULA, unless it was stolen and you were violating the EULA via impersonation.
In case saying it 3 times was not clear enough, he can give the API to whoever he wants. It's the possibility that a 3rd party would phish his mail via API and post "confidential" screenshots sent in a trust relationship that don't fly with me.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Misty McGinnity
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Posted - 2011.02.25 00:36:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
VV, you're full of ****e
1) Never got why you are so depressingly confrontative (or worse) in the large majority of your replies to anyone.
2) CCP tends to forbid to repost even simple in game things, I don't want a 3rd party private convos being forwarded to another 3rd party that could even publish it in a nonconsensual way.
If I am overly conservative about EULAS and such, I will just exceed in safety. Not going to exceed in the opposite.
implying you have something to hide.
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
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Posted - 2011.02.25 00:38:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste
Estel hit the nail on the head. Giving out an API would never be against the EULA, unless it was stolen and you were violating the EULA via impersonation.
In case saying it 3 times was not clear enough, he can give the API to whoever he wants. It's the possibility that a 3rd party would phish his mail via API and post "confidential" screenshots sent in a trust relationship that don't fly with me.
While that would be something that cosmoray should consider and could reflect poorly on him, this isn't an EULA issue since it's all part of CCP defined functionality for accessing information, and as yet we don't have a way to fine-tune the API. Luckily that should be here within the next year. I just wanted to clarify, anyway =)
______________________________
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Clown Pron
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Posted - 2011.02.25 00:45:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Misty McGinnity
Shut the **** up
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.02.25 00:52:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
1) Never got why you are so depressingly confrontative (or worse) in the large majority of your replies to anyone.
I'm afraid you have to wrong impression of me. I can be confrontational sometimes, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply to "the large majority" of my replies. I have made nearly 7200 posts, many of them quite decent and sometimes even helpful.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
2) CCP tends to forbid to repost even simple in game things,
Name one 'simple' ingame thing, other than killmails - I wouldn't consider communication with CCP employees and bugs/exploits to be simple.
With these three categories, I believe most restrictions are covered.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I don't want a 3rd party private convos being forwarded to another 3rd party that could even publish it in a nonconsensual way.
You don't want it so you refer to some fictional rules; I'm not sure if that's the best way to support your opinion.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
In case saying it 3 times was not clear enough, he can give the API to whoever he wants. It's the possibility that a 3rd party would phish his mail via API and post "confidential" screenshots sent in a trust relationship that don't fly with me.
Great - so I can sabotage any audit by unilaterally sending information which I don't want the auditor to see to the auditee and then claiming confidentiality. Seems like a good system to me!
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Misty McGinnity
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Posted - 2011.02.25 00:57:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Clown Pron
Originally by: Misty McGinnity
Shut the **** up
U mad?
trollface.jpg
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Clown Pron
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Posted - 2011.02.25 01:04:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Misty McGinnity
Originally by: Clown Pron
Originally by: Misty McGinnity
Shut the **** up
U mad?
trollface.jpg
No, everybody wants you to stfu, biomass, uninstall and buy a gun
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Misty McGinnity
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Posted - 2011.02.25 01:10:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Clown Pron
No, everybody wants you to stfu, biomass, uninstall and buy a gun
he mad.
interesting Audits can easily be sabotaged by sending a mail, further de-bunking there "need"
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Krythas
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Posted - 2011.02.25 01:26:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Misty McGinnity
interesting Audits can easily be sabotaged by sending a mail, further de-bunking there "need"
Why only interesting audits ? and who's "need" is it ? if it's an interesting audits "need" then why would they need to have a "need" and what exactly is a "need" anyway ? is it like a pony ? I like ponys.
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
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Posted - 2011.02.25 02:00:00 -
[37]
Originally by: cosmoray
After reading several reviews about collateral and security, I realise I haven't been audited since 2008 for my first business. I plan to rectify this.
When I return from travelling (I may be back Friday) I will release my API details on MD, allowing EVERYONE to conduct there own audit of me.
You get to see my highs and lows, my collateral holding, my loans, my trades, ........ EVERYTHING
Over the weekend, I will announce time, I will release the LIMITED API code.
I will also make the FULL API code available to well known auditors if they want it.
I will post in this thread the time that I will release the API codes. Then you get to have some fun.
TRUE TRANSPARENCY!!!
Is it just me or does this sound overly dramatic for just releasing audit data? Hmmm.
______________________________
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.02.25 04:45:00 -
[38]
Originally by: cosmoray
FULL API KEY:
JrQKHWpeZbFG6GUR8eEKoUqilsNoFRD2IbzK7BSpCLn5ppLdg77fnoz8a6xkrRL9
Useless without your userid. And effectively useless if not cached through a proxy, people will just be fighting for the next few days to beat the cache timers.
Not in the Exchange, don't invest! |
Ave Volta
Black Frog Logistics
Red-Frog
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Posted - 2011.02.25 06:30:00 -
[39]
It's threads like these that remind me that when important issues come up, you can always trust MD to come together in the spirit of colaboration and brotherhood to tackle the great questions of industry.
This thread has brought out the best in everyone! 
--------------------------------
RED FROG ALLIANCE: Here, There, and Everywhere. |
Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.25 11:10:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Ray McCormack
With AATP's API being public, the dozens of people constantly demanding public oversight very vocally but never with any real follow up action failed to notice the BPOs being unlocked and contracted to another corp several weeks ago.
Was that the big announcement?
Quoted because I didn't see an answer.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.02.25 11:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ave Volta
This thread has brought out the best in everyone!
Yeah, I hate the fact I'm having to re-associate douche-bags to portraits, used to be I could skip posts just from their ugly mugshots.
Not in the Exchange, don't invest! |
Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.02.25 13:02:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Yeah, I hate the fact I'm having to re-associate douche-bags to portraits, used to be I could skip posts just from their ugly mugshots.
Finally a post from Ray I can agree with!
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Femaref
Armageddon Day
WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2011.02.25 13:27:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: cosmoray
FULL API KEY:
JrQKHWpeZbFG6GUR8eEKoUqilsNoFRD2IbzK7BSpCLn5ppLdg77fnoz8a6xkrRL9
Useless without your userid. And effectively useless if not cached through a proxy, people will just be fighting for the next few days to beat the cache timers.
Damn, you don't know anything, do you?
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2011.02.25 13:38:00 -
[44]
Am I missing something here?
Do I have to post the user ID for it to provide all the info?
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Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
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Posted - 2011.02.25 13:46:00 -
[45]
Originally by: cosmoray
Am I missing something here?
Do I have to post the user ID for it to provide all the info?
The API key is only valid with a user ID.
However I would strongly recommend not to publish it.
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Shields are like pants, they're supposed to come off. Armor is like the condom once its gone ur ****ed |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2011.02.25 15:39:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste
......have you even done anything in the past two years that didn't involve speaking without thinking, let alone anything useful?
Yes, I stuck around with the mess you helped create at EBANK, and did what I could in a what some call vain attempt in recovery. You're just as responsible for EBANK's mess as anyone else who was there, nice to see you can so easily shrug the burden of responsibility to "customers" off your back.
Running at the first sign of trouble and out right abandoning that sense of responsibility isn't exactly a glorified sign of security either.
Amarr for Life |
flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.02.25 15:41:00 -
[47]
/me starts handing out popcorn ...
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2011.02.25 15:50:00 -
[48]
Originally by: flakeys
/me starts handing out popcorn ...
It'll be a short show - My character has completed it's lines.
Amarr for Life |
flakeys
The Great cornholio's
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 15:53:00 -
[49]
/me asks for a refund to the seller for 50 kilo of popcorn
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Two Shots
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 15:54:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 24/02/2011 17:01:26
Quote:
You are making a vield legal threat against Cosmo. I understand that you don't want your super secret stuff out in the open for the world to see
It's not as easy as that.
A Cosmo customer (not mine, I don't recall about having heard of him before) contacted me so that I would contact him. The alledged reason is that Cosmo is not reachable.
Then he said me things to tell him with screenshots to "prove" it. He did not authorize others to look at his in game chat, I don't even think the EULA would allow for it and for sure I don't want consequences even with a 1% probability it's against the EULA.
As for the secret stuff, it's nothing really that important. I would not care to have that posted anywhere but the customer lack of authorization still stands.
Dear VV,
Get your head out of your butt. You are alleging that players of EVE: Online, the popular Internet space ship game, are required to respect the expressed requests of other players in regards to information disclosed "in private". Were this to be true, then espionage would be against the EULA and could be avoided entirely by the CEO of a corporation placing some fine-print disclaimer in his corporation's description. If you really believe that a request, even if agreed to by both parties, to keep information private is somehow binding, then you are utterly wrong.
"Dear potential corporation member and/or out-of-game services user; let it be henceforth stated than any information regarding the activities or disposition of the alliance or corporation, its assets or members, its holdings or influence, < Insert some more legalese here to cover all possible permutations of things that could in any way affect a space ship guild > shall be considered confidential information disclosed to you, the user, in private counsel; therefore, any release of the < aforementioned block of legalese > to any party not expressly authorized to you in writing from the < list of people who can tell you it's okay to release intel > SHALL RESULT IN US CRYING TO CCP ABOUT YOUR EULA VIOLATION, YOU BEING BANNED FROM THIS SPACE SHIP GAME, AND A REAL LIFE LAWSUIT SHALL BE LEVIED AGAINST THREE GENERATIONS OF YOUR DESCENDANTS.
Seriously. Take a step back, and realize this game is not nearly as big a deal as you and a lot of other people would like it to be.
Two Shots
Goonwaffe |
|
|
Estel Arador
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:07:00 -
[51]
Careful Two Shots, or VV will accuse you of being a meanie!
|
Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:09:00 -
[52]
I'd like to take this opportunity to announce my candidacy.
|
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:10:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
I'd like to take this opportunity to announce my candidacy.
Do we need to send you our API key before we can vote for you?
Joint Venture Conglomerate |
Two Shots
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:10:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Careful Two Shots, or VV will accuse you of being a meanie!
Two Shots
Goonwaffe |
Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:11:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Jackie Fisher
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
I'd like to take this opportunity to announce my candidacy.
Do we need to send you our API key before we can vote for you?
Umm, duh.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:13:00 -
[56]
Originally by: cosmoray
Am I missing something here?
Do I have to post the user ID for it to provide all the info?
I strongly advise you to not post it, because it can be used to attempt a brute force attack against your account.
In fact come the new API, for that reason, the user ID won't be to be included any more.
Originally by: Two Shots
Seriously. Take a step back, and realize this game is not nearly as big a deal as you and a lot of other people would like it to be.
The game per se is not a big deal to me at all.
I just happen to give a big importance to diligence, customers privacy and committment towards those who trusted me with any tangible or intangible value / information.
This is regardless of being a game, RL or whatever and takes precedence over context. I.e. even if it's a game I feel bound to respect the same principles of outside the game.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:18:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 25/02/2011 16:19:06
I just threw up in my mouth.
*Edit* And for the reading impaired.
:1615118
: JrQKHWpeZbFG6GUR8eEKoUqilsNoFRD2IbzK7BSpCLn5ppLdg77fnoz8a6xkrRL9
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Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:20:00 -
[58]
Originally by: flakeys
/me asks for a refund to the seller for 50 kilo of popcorn
Won't happen.
Your KalPopcorn sale was actually bundled along with many other sellers and released as a set of KalCDOs onto the market.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:36:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kalrand
Won't happen.
Your KalPopcorn sale was actually bundled along with many other sellers and released as a set of KalCDOs onto the market.
Sounds like a opportunity to get in on the popcorn market, and sweet market it is!
Insight incident, setup shop to sell popcorn.
Like how McAfee employee virus writers to write non-impact viruses to justify their product. Or Advertisers pushing Malware that looks like Virus protection, emulates your machine is riddled with scary sounding viruses, then sell you the Virus Protection to remove it.. 
Amarr for Life |
Two Shots
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:43:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Two Shots
Seriously. Take a step back, and realize this game is not nearly as big a deal as you and a lot of other people would like it to be.
The game per se is not a big deal to me at all.
I just happen to give a big importance to diligence, customers privacy and committment towards those who trusted me with any tangible or intangible value / information.
This is regardless of being a game, RL or whatever and takes precedence over context. I.e. even if it's a game I feel bound to respect the same principles of outside the game.
I like how you completely avoided the point that was expressed in my post (which in case you or some reader didn't know was me contradicting you), and much like a greasy-palmed politician deftly side-stepped the issue to offer an endearing, rehearsed line about your outstanding character. Now that you've taken a moment to remind us all that you're a good person with enough moral fiber to pass a herd of buffalo through your ethical colon, would you care to actually address my counter-claim to your claim?
Two Shots
Goonwaffe |
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:47:00 -
[61]
/me hands out the popcorn again ...
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Two Shots
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:49:00 -
[62]
Originally by: flakeys
/me hands out the popcorn again ...
The in game board for EVE: Online, the popular Internet space ship game, needs a :popcorn: emote. I promise to get this implemented if you vote for me for CSM.
Two Shots
Goonwaffe |
Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:55:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: flakeys
/me hands out the popcorn again ...
The in game board for EVE: Online, the popular Internet space ship game, needs a :popcorn: emote. I promise to get this implemented if you vote for me for CSM.
Sorry, my Goonvote slot has been filled by Kalrand already. You could get him to add that to his platform, though, and I'll support him stealing it from you.
*eats KalPopcorn* Wait... my investment! *tries to spit it back up*
I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
Estel Arador
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 17:01:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: flakeys
/me hands out the popcorn again ...
The in game board for EVE: Online, the popular Internet space ship game, needs a :popcorn: emote. I promise to get this implemented if you vote for me for CSM.
Perhaps you can suggest it for the new forums?
|
Two Shots
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 17:10:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: flakeys
/me hands out the popcorn again ...
The in game board for EVE: Online, the popular Internet space ship game, needs a :popcorn: emote. I promise to get this implemented if you vote for me for CSM.
Perhaps you can suggest it for the new forums?
Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Two Shots
Goonwaffe |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 17:17:00 -
[66]
Quote:
I like how you completely avoided the point that was expressed in my post (which in case you or some reader didn't know was me contradicting you), and much like a greasy-palmed politician deftly side-stepped the issue to offer an endearing, rehearsed line about your outstanding character. Now that you've taken a moment to remind us all that you're a good person with enough moral fiber to pass a herd of buffalo through your ethical colon, would you care to actually address my counter-claim to your claim?
If you want that I don't avoid your points, please type them in an English that I can understand, because I don't know what I missed.
In any case I got my answer off a petition to a GM: posting in game mails and chatlogs is not permitted.
Giving a full API key to unknowns exposes to the possibility of the contents being posted on the forums, therefore the reply applies.
Iirc it's forbidden to post the petitions text but I'll privately send a link to a screenshot to those who want to check.
Finally, you are welcome to not share my principles. I don't mind at all. Everyone his ways.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Estel Arador
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 17:22:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Giving a full API key to unknowns exposes to the possibility of the contents being posted on the forums, therefore the reply applies.
Not the best of arguments. Sending an evemail exposes to the possibility of the contents being posted on the forums, therefore sending evemails is facilitating breaking the rules?
If posting it is against the rules, that's something the person posting it should consider.
|
Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 17:37:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
In any case I got my answer off a petition to a GM: posting in game mails and chatlogs is not permitted.
It's not permitted to be posted on the eve forums. You can post the information on pastebin, your blog, your FB page, or anywhere else you like.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Giving a full API key to unknowns exposes to the possibility of the contents being posted on the forums, therefore the reply applies.
Emphasis mine. The same 'possibility' exists whether the recipient is 'known' or 'unkown.' Please point me to the part of the EULA that says it's ok to disseminate Eve mails to 'known' persons but forbidden to send them to 'unkown' persons. You are clinging to the argument that it's somehow against the EULA players to send full API to people you don't trust and simultaniously state that it's perfectly legit to send full API keys to you personally. It's either OK or not OK to send out full API info to third parties. It cannot be both. Pick a side of the fence and stick with it because you are digging yourself an ever deeper hole by trying to play both sides.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 17:46:00 -
[69]
Quote:
It's either OK or not OK to send out full API info to third parties. It cannot be both
It's OK and it's being done even at alliance level, the relevant recruitment officer or w/e is not going to disclose what they get.
On the contrary, posting an API code for public access is not going to "bind" anyone to keep the contents private.
If the email contained something worth posting (it doesn't, but the idea stands), you can stay sure someone would post it. Sure, CCP would remove since it is indeed forbidden (as I stated in the previous post) it but it'd be on EvE-Search anyway and then someone else would export it to some third party site and so on.
Also, about digging deeper holes: no problem with me.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 17:56:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Grimhowl on 25/02/2011 18:02:40
Originally by: Edwin Rothbard
:words:
Pick a side of the fence and stick with it because you are digging yourself an ever deeper hole by trying to play both sides.
I don't believe VV is trying to imply that one is against EULA and the other isn't. In terms of risk, giving access to potentially a great many unknown people, someone out there may be tempted to read through mails and post them on forums. This is especially true if they read this thread and decide to do it just to be a jerk. Although I disagree with why you are at odds with VV's arguement, I agree that it wouldn't be against the EULA for the poster of API; the person who actually posted the mails on the forum would be the one in breach rather than the party that gave them access to those mails.
If, however, the API poster in question gave explicit instructions in locating a particular mail that said person wants the forum to pay specific attention to this may be a breach due to the intent to circumvent current rules by being a trixy little troll.
Most importantly, the reason posting such mails and chatlogs is, as I am being led to believe, against the rules would likely be to have in place a mechanism to punish someone for harassment or what have you by posting said logs and/or falsifying them. This is much the same as those weird laws states have like not allowing the consumption of icecream in the middle of the road. In this way, it can be punished or ignored as is made necessary by ambiguous situations that are left up to the discretion of a CCP rep. This is relevant because it means that said "breach" would, by my logic, be likely to be ignored. So, this whole line of conversation is pointless.
Signed,
Unnecessarily Verbose Poster Due to Boredom at Work.
I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
|
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:57:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Sure, CCP would remove since it is indeed forbidden
It's not forbidden based on the EULA or TOS (or even the forum rules). Though CCP is free to moderate their forums in any way they like, there is nothing against disclosing the information anywhere else (or even posting it here anyway, and see if it gets moderated - against the rules or not, I've seen plenty of reports of ingame conversations posted).
Note you are moving the goalpost: you went from a "violation of the EULA" to "CCP doesn't like if you do it on their turf" - quite a difference.
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:08:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Sure, CCP would remove since it is indeed forbidden
It's not forbidden based on the EULA or TOS (or even the forum rules). Though CCP is free to moderate their forums in any way they like, there is nothing against disclosing the information anywhere else (or even posting it here anyway, and see if it gets moderated - against the rules or not, I've seen plenty of reports of ingame conversations posted).
Note you are moving the goalpost: you went from a "violation of the EULA" to "CCP doesn't like if you do it on their turf" - quite a difference.
These are the GM textual words:
"Posting in game mails and chatlogs is not permitted".
Also, as the poster above said, it's indeed a disclosure by proxy but by self opening oneself by publishing something meant to be private (full API key, else why make a limited one to start with) makes the discloser an accomplice.
I am decently sure that if I reported a post like: "Please remove that stuff because it's been API phished from private in game convo" the forum mod would, even if nowhere is presented this particular case.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:11:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Grimhowl
I don't believe VV is trying to imply that one is against EULA and the other isn't.
From post #10 of this thread:
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Giving out a full API key to unauthorized 3rd party will be a breach of his privacy AND possibly of the EULA.
From post #16:
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
As you may see by reading ANY of my recent (months?) audits, I always add a disclaimer about how I am against API mail phishing and will never read and much less post any mail.
And from post #66
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Giving a full API key to unknowns exposes to the possibility of the contents being posted on the forums, therefore the reply applies.
Clearly she believes it's against the EULA for anyone to send their full API to an 'uknown' third party unless that third party happens to be her.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:14:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/02/2011 18:15:50
Clearly your understanding of simple English is even worse than mine.
Odd that in your zeal to link post after post, you missed #69.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Estel Arador
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:17:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Clearly your understanding of simple English is even worse than mine.
Odd that in your zeal to link post after post, you missed #69.
And you missed TOS rule #18
|
Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:21:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Edwin Rothbard
Clearly she believes it's against the EULA for anyone to send their full API to an 'uknown' third party unless that third party happens to be her.
I disagree; the way VV's arguement read to me it was the potential exposure of chatlog screenshots containing private conversation of an undisclosed third party that was the *possible* breach. </readingcomprehension>
I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
Two Shots
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:36:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Two Shots on 25/02/2011 18:37:15
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
It's either OK or not OK to send out full API info to third parties. It cannot be both
Oh my how ignorant you are. You have no idea the hilarity that gets reposted.
edit: oops
Two Shots
Goonwaffe |
Lederstrumpf
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:37:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 25/02/2011 18:52:59
Originally by: cosmoray
If I release my full API code, what are the dangers to my account?
I guess the main danger to "your account" is people won't trust _you_ anymore, as mail sent to you obviously is not being kept confidential, as you're right now disclosing stuff sent to you by others.
And for sure VV doesn't want it to be public, because forwarding screenies to you probably wasn't wished for by his "client" either?!
Both of you did grab into a pile of crap right here, about to endanger both of your accounts.
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:41:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/02/2011 18:49:15
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Clearly your understanding of simple English is even worse than mine.
Odd that in your zeal to link post after post, you missed #69.
And you missed TOS rule #18
That's a statement off a policy, the rest of the GM text including his name or other sentences was not posted.
From
Website terms Of Service section 6.7:
Quote:
6.7. When submitting any comments in any form to the Web Site, whether it be via chat services, bulletin board services, customer feedback email, or the like you, are solely responsible for the content of any comments you make. You agree that no comments submitted by you to the Web Site will:
I violate any right of any third party, including but not limited to copyright, trademark, privacy, or other personal or proprietary rights;
...
IV contain any personal information (other than your email address or user name).
From:
EULA:
Quote:
User Content that you cause to be communicated to the System may not (i) violate any statute, rule, regulation or law; (ii) infringe or violate the intellectual property, proprietary, privacy or publicity rights of any third party; (iii) be defamatory, indecent, obscene, child ****ographic or harmful to minors; or (iv) contain any viruses, Trojan horses, disabling code, worms, time bombs, "clear GIFs," cancelbots or other computer programming or routines that are intended to, or which in fact, damage, detrimentally interfere with, monitor, intercept or expropriate any data, information, packets or personal information.
Quote:
And for sure VV doesn't want it to be public, because forwarding screenies to you for sure wasn't wished for by his "client" either
No, the client expressly contacted me so that I'd forward his request to Cosmoray (as he could not contact him despite repeated tries), I even told him that I'd need proof of the chat being genuine.
Quote:
probanly wasn't wished for by his "client" either?!
Not a client of mine, but he did wish for it as per the above.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Two Shots
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:54:00 -
[80]
You are trying to argue that the legal definition of privacy in the real world applies to the goings-on in a game where espionage is a valid part of game mechanic.
Two Shots
Goonwaffe |
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|
Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 18:59:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Grimhowl on 25/02/2011 19:02:10
Originally by: Two Shots
You are trying to argue that the legal definition of privacy in the real world applies to the goings-on in a game where espionage is a valid part of game mechanic.
Nah, cuz otherwise VV'd be saying it was against the rules to post on another site. The statement is just that doing that shiz in this specific forum is a problem. It's just a further unwanted side-effect that it can still be found even after removal from forums then put on third party site.
On a separate point, in the context of the forums, the real world definition of privacy is very relevant. Less so if constrained to in-game methods of communication. We are all sort of dancing in a grey area, though.
-
I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
Mister Rocknrolla
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 19:03:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
EULA:
Quote:
User Content that you cause to be communicated to the System may not (i) violate any statute, rule, regulation or law; (ii) infringe or violate the intellectual property, proprietary, privacy or publicity rights of any third party; (iii) be defamatory, indecent, obscene, child ****ographic or harmful to minors; or (iv) contain any viruses, Trojan horses, disabling code, worms, time bombs, "clear GIFs," cancelbots or other computer programming or routines that are intended to, or which in fact, damage, detrimentally interfere with, monitor, intercept or expropriate any data, information, packets or personal information.
Doesn't this mean that the original Evemail/chatlog was a EULA violation by disclosing personal/private info in-game?
|
Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 19:05:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
Doesn't this mean that the original Evemail/chatlog was a EULA violation by disclosing personal/private info in-game?
I think that was the forum EULA not the one for the game you quoted. The Evemail was done outside the forum and so it doesn't apply.
-
I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
I AM SPARTACUS
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 19:10:00 -
[84]
Internet spaceship lawyers! In spaaaaaaaace!
I AM EULACUS!
|
Lederstrumpf
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 19:11:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
[..] the client expressly contacted me so that I'd forward his request to Cosmoray [..] Not a client of mine, but he did wish for it as per the above.
I'm not sure how much of the "full story" you've been told. Always consider to just know half the truth. I will not go into detail as I honor my word, but I can say this: I did choose not to do business with him. Some stuff has to be considered way too dangerous in the EVE universe, even though it wouldn't be a strict EULA violation!!
Anyway: You, VV, did disclose myself having had contact with that "client" without asking me if that'd be fine with me. It was not. You, to a lesser extent, did the same what you blame cosmoray for right now.
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:14:00 -
[86]
All those quotes but not the one where you agree that you have no expectation of privacy (see post #25).
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 19:14:00 -
[87]
Quote:
You are trying to argue that the legal definition of privacy in the real world applies to the goings-on in a game where espionage is a valid part of game mechanic.
Before eve-mails could be leaked, espionage would go its merry way.
EvE mails are e(lectronic) mails in their effect, interface and appearance. It comes natural for people to disclose more about private matters with such media.
Furthermore eve mails were retroactively made public without any consent, (exactly like EvE Gate BTW).
There are things that are in a deep grey area and European people (including me) have their laws that protect privacy in a vastly broader way than other countries.
If the e-mails inside EvE would be demonstrated to be used in the same semantic way of RL emails this could cause issues, boureaucrats don't care about EULAS (easily voidable) and would harass CCP forever.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 19:19:00 -
[88]
Quote:
Anyway: You, VV, did disclose myself having had contact with that "client" without asking me if that'd be fine with me. It was not. You, to a lesser extent, did the same what you blame cosmoray for right now.
Nothing about you was even asked by me (nor I want to know) but freely stated by the guy and in any case I did not divulge my full API to slam it in the face of the world.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 19:22:00 -
[89]
Originally by: I AM SPARTACUS
Internet spaceship lawyers! In spaaaaaaaace!
I AM EULACUS!
Can I be your sidekick?
-
I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
Lederstrumpf
|
Posted - 2011.02.25 19:27:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Nothing about you was even asked by me (nor I want to know) but freely stated by the guy
And this does give you the right to forward it? If it'd give you that right then cosmoray had any right to forward his inbox to the world, too, as he for sure didn't ask to get contacted by yourself on behalf of that "client"...
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Ave Volta
Black Frog Logistics
Red-Frog
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:43:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
There are things that are in a deep grey area and European people (including me) have their laws that protect privacy in a vastly broader way than other countries.
If the e-mails inside EvE would be demonstrated to be used in the same semantic way of RL emails this could cause issues, boureaucrats don't care about EULAS (easily voidable) and would harass CCP forever.
Bureaucrats harassing CCP over EvE-mails? Seriously? Delusions of grandeur of the highest order.
Just about anything should be more important than protecting the privacy of imaginary internet space people. If any of my elected officials were concerned about this, rather the the endless quantity of real life pressing issues, I would be seriously annoyed.
CCP's primary concern here is that it wants it's game to be enjoyable, and to give players some measure of control over their own personal correspondence in-game. Nothing more. The fact of the matter is that CCP also gave players a tool to intentionally expose this information at their discretion to the public at large, with the intentional side effect being the exposure of personal in-game correspondence.
VV, if you are unhappy with CCP's decision to include EvE-mails in the full-api release, I suggest you take it up with them, as opposed to taking it up with other players who are using the tools as provided.
If you are concerned about your private conversations being made public because someone else chooses to release their full-api, then maybe you should choose another communication method that falls outside the vectors that the full-api intentionally exposes.
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RED FROG ALLIANCE: Here, There, and Everywhere. |
Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:46:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 25/02/2011 19:46:58
Originally by: Lederstrumpf
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Nothing about you was even asked by me (nor I want to know) but freely stated by the guy
And this does give you the right to forward it? If it'd give you that right then cosmoray had any right to forward his inbox to the world, too, as he for sure didn't ask to get contacted by yourself on behalf of that "client"...
I don't think you get it. VV thinks all evemails are private and subject to EU privacy laws so they cannot be made public, with of course one exception (all rules have an exception), and that's when he's doing it.
Also the fact that he's quoting the EULA to support his argument in one post and claiming the EULA is worthless anyway a couple of posts later is no way shape or form contradictory; after all, VV could never contradict himself.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:03:00 -
[93]
Quote:
And this does give you the right to forward it?
Since I don't want to talk private things here I prefer to talk you in game.
Quote:
If it'd give you that right then cosmoray had any right to forward his inbox to the world, too
It's like forwarding a phone call to its recipient, people can tell you their stuff including (unsolicited) random names.
I am obliged to forward it verbatim.
If the originator likes to talk unsolicited stuff and the end recipient prefers to shout it out then I am unable to do anything.
Quote:
I don't think you get it. VV thinks all evemails are private and subject to EU privacy laws so they cannot be made public, with of course one exception (all rules have an exception), and that's when he's doing it.
When did I publish an evemail so to be such exception?
Quote:
Also the fact that he's quoting the EULA to support his argument in one post and claiming the EULA is worthless anyway a couple of posts later is no way shape or form contradictory; after all, VV could never contradict himself.
EULA is a license agreement, as such it has to be followed by us. If it's found to be breaching a law, states usually impose law > EULA and then the EULA "falls back" to the next statements that cover the cases where it cannot be used at full (i.e. the additional disclaimers at the end that try and contain the effects of such an override by law).
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:03:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Ave Volta
The fact of the matter is that CCP also gave players a tool to intentionally expose this information at their discretion to the public at large, with the intentional side effect being the exposure of personal in-game correspondence.
^^ this
Originally by: Estel Arador
VV thinks all evemails are private and subject to EU privacy laws so they cannot be made public, with of course one exception (all rules have an exception), and that's when he's doing it.
^^ and this
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Two Shots
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:07:00 -
[95]
A bunch of hypocrites ITT.
Two Shots
Goonwaffe |
Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:15:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Estel Arador
I don't think you get it. VV thinks all evemails are private and subject to EU privacy laws so they cannot be made public, with of course one exception (all rules have an exception), and that's when he's doing it.
Also the fact that he's quoting the EULA to support his argument in one post and claiming the EULA is worthless anyway a couple of posts later is no way shape or form contradictory; after all, VV could never contradict himself.
This is simply attacking a straw man. As stated earlier there is one very simple core reason why it could be seen as breach. Nothing else matters. Making public on the forum indirectly or otherwise a screenshot of private chatlogs is the central point. If you can refute that there is a history of CCP removing posts containing similar effects then you have an arguement against his case. Further, this supposition was noted as being a possibility and not certain fact. the initial statement contained within it cautions that he wasn't sure if it was actually against the EULA;. The implication, in context, is that it's frowned upon regardless of the extent to which it is discouraged and in what terms.
Ultimately, I don't think it's actually a problem to post one's own Full API. I freely admit I'm having fun playing at devil's advocate and this is very entertaining. Thanks for a good debate, for once, internets. :D
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I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:33:00 -
[97]
Quote:
The fact of the matter is that CCP also gave players a tool to intentionally expose this information at their discretion to the public at large, with the intentional side effect being the exposure of personal in-game correspondence
If this was true, it would be CCP's interest to make players use this feature on their own media (i.e. forums), even just for bragging rights a la C&P.
It's not so, it's forbidden to intentionally expose such information on CCP's media.
Furthermore, if CCP really wanted to give such tool, they would not have made the effort at creating a limited API key, they'd just leave "the" key for everyone to use & abuse at will.
Quote:
^^ and this
Prove I posted an ingame mail? I don't want to think that all you can do is to quote someone else's opinions like a parrot.
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:34:00 -
[98]
What a lively thread
You know, I was just mulling .. an EVE auditor is pretty much self appointed, as with many other things in-game like CEO and whatnots. Now, a customer to this auditor, by virtue of association, had already willingly released his greatest top secrets to the auditor(s) - this implies FULL TRUST.
Now my question, ladies and gentleman, wtf is all these wall-o-text for the past 3-4 pages about?
CEO/director goes rogue? hahaha ... why did you trust him?
Auditor goes rogue ... hahaha, serves you right ... oh wait a sec, someone wants to you on EULA and whatnots!?
Great, I love this game |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:42:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/02/2011 20:46:58
Quote:
You know, I was just mulling .. an EVE auditor is pretty much self appointed
After having studied with / at 3 other auditors I started offering my services and people accepted them.
Therefore they "appointed" me, not myself.
Quote:
as with many other things in-game like CEO and whatnots
Yeah, because in EvE you can be in an one man corp with SO MANY other roles...
Quote:
Now, a customer to this auditor
He's a Cosmoray customer, never heard of this guy before nor will after.
Quote:
had already willingly released his greatest top secrets to the auditor(s) - this implies FULL TRUST
The "secrets" were just to tell Cosmoray a thing. The thing has been delivered to Cosmoray verbatim and in full. He had precisely all what he asked for.
Quote:
CEO/director goes rogue? hahaha ... why did you trust him?
?
Quote:
Auditor goes rogue
??
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Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:53:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Edwin Rothbard on 25/02/2011 20:53:57
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Edwin Rothbard
^^ and this
Prove I posted an ingame mail? I don't want to think that all you can do is to quote someone else's opinions like a parrot.
First you attack my ability to read english then you call me a parrot. You might want to look at this page.
You don't appear to understand the meaning of 'third party' and 'public' when it comes to private communications. If player1 and player2 have a private conversation anyone later given the text of that exchange is both the 'third party' AND the 'public.' You seem to think that if player2 sends the contents of the private conversation to unrelated player3 that's all fine and dandy as long as YOU are player3.
It doesn't matter if player3 is you, some 'unkown,' or someone's FB page in all three examples they are the public third party. You are of the mistaken belief that you are really just player2.5 and that it's ok for YOU to have access to private communications as long as you don't further disseminate it to others. There's no player2.5 here only 1/2/3 and you are player3 everytime you accept someone's full API regardless of how trustworthy you claim to be.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:57:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 25/02/2011 21:02:47
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
After having studied with / at 3 other auditors I started offering my services and people accepted them.
Therefore they "appointed" me, not myself.
See, you get defensive when you think people poke holes in you, completely missing the entire context of the whole paragraph and what it was trying to describe. Please, re-read again slowly and think what it means.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Yeah, because in EvE you can be in an one man corp with SO MANY other roles...
See the above.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
He's a Cosmoray customer, never heard of this guy before nor will after.
Yes, it was stated very clearly in your first post. There is no need to keep repeating it for the umpteenth time.
However, since he is Cosmo's customer, why are vehemently arguing? People would see this "forcing" your own values onto other people, do you agree or disagree?
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
The "secrets" were just to tell Cosmoray a thing. The thing has been delivered to Cosmoray verbatim and in full. He had precisely all what he asked for.
Are you always this literal at reading rhetorics?
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
?
I would advise reading slowly and re-reading it until the meaning sinks.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
??
See above.
Edit: sheesh, another missing word + missing para |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:04:00 -
[102]
Real life privacy laws may apply if the data in which is being exposed is owned by the user. In this case it is not.. CCP Own 100% of all the data contained within EVE and it's universe. Which means if I wanted to post an EVEMail someone sent me about how they hate me because I sold them a Shuttle for 900mil, I can without the risk of being sued by the person in real life.
Why? because the shuttle, the ISK, the medium in which I obtained the declaration of hate, the server, and the service is 100% owned by CCP. Which means the only people that could sue me is CCP for releasing the information they own to the public. Since CCP don't care about that I am not worried.
Even if I posted an EVEMail that was sent to me disclosing a persons real life Name, Address, Phone number, and password identification number, I can't be sued in real life. But I would be banned from using EVE by CCP.
VV - You never seemed to consider the fact that anything we say or do in EVE or the forums becomes the property of CCP the very second we post it or press the send button. To that end, they are the ONE AND ONLY entity that have any real life legal recourse. Since they own the environment in which that information was disclosed then they have the ability to remove the post.
The ONLY thing they declare is that privacy rules is souly focused around that which is real life information like... "Hi, my name is Dude, and I live at 123 ABC Street, Nowhereville, Delaware, my Phone number is +1 (555) 867-5309" That information is of something real life, not "Hi, my Name is SencneS, and I live in Jita." CCP own that information, they own SencneS, everything SencneS holds, and they own Jita, and the data contained within it.
Now if I found out something about your character and posted it on the forums, there is not one privacy law anywhere in the world that you could site that wouldn't be tossed out of any court anywhere around the world the second you mentioned it.
Amarr for Life |
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente
C C P
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:10:00 -
[103]
Locking thread as this thread has gone way off topic.
Zymurgist
Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online
Contact Us |
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Grimhowl
Heroes of NewEden
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:14:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Edwin Rothbard
:words:
Erm... no. While it might be true that an individual person collectively make up the public when gather with other individual peoples, this does not make them a "public" third party when contacted privately.
I understand that you're really excited to play the "gotchya!" card on VV, but I don't see where VV has personally posted private information even through use of his own right to plaster his full API anywhere and everywhere or any other indirect obfuscated method. Even where concerns the alleged unmasking of the person in evemails in question I really don't see how anyone would have known it was german-name who talked with VV except those that already had access to VV *or* Cosmoray's private evemail inbox.
I can't help but wonder at such conviction to slander VV baselessly unless you have some hidden stake in this somewhere. I find your repetitious accusations and sliding around of words distasteful. Also, you haven't acknowledged my challenge to refute the core arguement that started all of this. You don't have to, of course, just noting that you haven't.
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I don't want the world, I just want your half. |
Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:31:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
It's like forwarding a phone call to its recipient, people can tell you their stuff including (unsolicited) random names.
I am obliged to forward it verbatim.
Just drop it. Nobody can force you to agree on "forwarding calls verbatim". It's your choice to accept those kinds of jobs or decline them. If you agree to be at service for some customer to forward private data it's your fault to accept that job. "I'm not guilty, I just got hired!" -- As an auditor you should be aware there's jobs one should not accept.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If the originator likes to talk unsolicited stuff and the end recipient prefers to shout it out then I am unable to do anything. Quote:
You're right, it's too late for you/cosmoray to do anything about it now. Funny constellation of an information leak. And the good thing is this leak might keep both of your asses out of trouble, even though you don't recognize it yet. If you want my advice: Do not touch those shares until the "client" decides to go public with his story, which is what I did advise him to do when he did contact me...
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