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Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 14:41:00 -
[1]
Dramiels are completely imbalanced in multiple roles, and as a frigate pilot a few years now its sad to see them destroy the otherwise balanced frigate class (now after rocket changes. thx ccp). I'll quote my post from SHC where we discussed this. These are well thought out changes as from someone who both fly and fight dramiels:
needed changes:
- 10-20% speed nerf, get it below 800m/s when webbed and using faction ab
- grid nerf so fitting t2 extender, largest guns with only a micro core is impossible (150s are ok)
- remove one drone (bandwidth)
- remove falloff bonus. its too powerful to have both a tracking and falloff bonus and combined with its drones it means you can hardly beat it even if you could somehow kite it (see hookbills). make it fit arties if it wants to kite rail/rocket boats.
- cut lock range to that of a taranis. they shouldnt be fleet tacklers
I was teaching my pvp class yesterday and kept thinking how well balanced most of the frigate bracket is now EXCEPT for dramiels which are so stupidly op i dont even know what ccp was thinking.
the other big problem with drams is the price in combination with how good they are. 70 mil means the only fights you will get with one is ***gotry (ab+shield boost faction fits) that wont engage anything threatening (eg pretty much nothing) and people will have backup to bail them out every time. There are no casual duels with drams. but because they absolutely have no disadvantage (good dps, best speed, good EHP, good agility, good range, good tracking) people feel forced to fly them and this has ruined frigate pvp and created Dramiels Online.
Some have suggested removing a midslot which I disagree with because it will make it too generic and close to useless for soloing
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Kesi Raae
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Posted - 2011.02.25 14:48:00 -
[2]
I want my solo pvp environment back, most places are a ghost town except for Dramiels.
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TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
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Posted - 2011.02.25 14:50:00 -
[3]
Edited by: TimMc on 25/02/2011 14:49:54
What would the falloff bonus be replaced by?
Supporting anyway.
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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.02.25 14:51:00 -
[4]
Long overdue.
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Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 14:53:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Podcat on 25/02/2011 14:55:53
 Originally by: TimMc
Edited by: TimMc on 25/02/2011 14:49:54
What would the falloff bonus be replaced by?
Supporting anyway.
does it need another bonus? I dont think so. if you wanted to do it you could nerf the speed then give it 5% speed per level of minmatar frig until it was the same (with the suggested 20% speed reduction). You could also give it an optimal bonus instead to boost its small niche role as a kiting artillery ship (optimal bonus wont change much for AC fit). Its just that falloff + tracking is too good combined and leaves no weakness to exploit.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Laechyd Eldgorn
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.02.25 15:33:00 -
[6]
because dramiel
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.02.25 15:47:00 -
[7]
I would rather have the speed of the rest of the frigates increased to be closer to that of the dram.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Alain Colcer
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.02.25 15:53:00 -
[8]
Supported, dramiels are the bane of Faction War complexes.
Minor sites were supposed to be run by destroyers and frigates, perfect for the "entry level" tasks in militia fleets, pirates and enemies camp this locations with dramiels and once they are in, you are never out.
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Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 15:58:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Bagehi
I would rather have the speed of the rest of the frigates increased to be closer to that of the dram.
I'm not sure thats necessary, but I dont have strong opinions about it. however you would still need to change the other stats I suggested to balance things. speed is just one of the things unbalancing the dramiel.
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
Alvin Agrippa
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:08:00 -
[10]
Sounds good.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:25:00 -
[11]
Did you try to fit a plate and web on a dramiel...?
How about Slicer?
Make all frigs go inty speeds with AF DPS+EHP or none. Exceptions like Slicer and Dramiel and speed difference between AF and faction crap are silly.
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Marko box
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:30:00 -
[12]
I second the op's opinion
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Podcat
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:42:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kepakh
Did you try to fit a plate and web on a dramiel...?
How about Slicer?
Make all frigs go inty speeds with AF DPS+EHP or none. Exceptions like Slicer and Dramiel and speed difference between AF and faction crap are silly.
not quite sure what you mean. I guess its just a troll or do you mean that you want all ships to be the same or are you saying that slicers are too fast (they are not they are slower than crusaders)?
vid: Dishonor - combat evolved |
z0de
The Bastards
The Bastards.
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Posted - 2011.02.25 16:58:00 -
[14]
yo
á
á
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Podcat
not quite sure what you mean.
Dramiel: dual prop + scram + web + plate. Did you try that? That directly refers to your suggested changes because I find your proposal too narrowed against certain specific fit, rather than ship as a whole.
Slicer is indeed slower than Sader but still way too fast for range, EHP and DPS it can project. Speed needs to come with DPS drawback. This was balanced pre-nano as you had to fill your lows with speed mods at the expense of damage. Because of stacking penalty and speed nerf, this no longer works so you have ships like Dramiel, Slicer or Cynabal that get this speed without any penalty - they are fast, have tank and deal good DPS.
If you want to have GTFO boats, sure but don't expect to kill much with them => balance.
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Smuggo Smuggins
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:05:00 -
[16]
YES!
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Youssef Daunch
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:22:00 -
[17]
Uh-yeah.
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freshspree
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Podcat
not quite sure what you mean.
Dramiel: dual prop + scram + web + plate. Did you try that? That directly refers to your suggested changes because I find your proposal too narrowed against certain specific fit, rather than ship as a whole.
Slicer is indeed slower than Sader but still way too fast for range, EHP and DPS it can project. Speed needs to come with DPS drawback. This was balanced pre-nano as you had to fill your lows with speed mods at the expense of damage. Because of stacking penalty and speed nerf, this no longer works so you have ships like Dramiel, Slicer or Cynabal that get this speed without any penalty - they are fast, have tank and deal good DPS.
If you want to have GTFO boats, sure but don't expect to kill much with them => balance.
Fast ships dealing high dps still fit in. I think EHP is what is meant to be affected. High dps and pretty fast with low ehp makes sense. Reducing dps makes you stick around for much longer which isn't necessary.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:36:00 -
[19]
Originally by: freshspree
High dps and pretty fast with low ehp makes sense.
No they don't and never did. Also, neither Dramiel, Slicer or Cynabal have low EHP.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.02.25 17:59:00 -
[20]
So I take it Genos is finally tired of the Angel FoTM? 
Not sure if all those changes are needed.
It is enough to gimp the fittings to a point where dualprop+tank becomes a practical impossibility (ie. DP or tank, but not both).
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.25 18:59:00 -
[21]
I'm against any more speed nerfs.
If anything, other ship classes need a speed boost. Speed should play important role in combat - it is one of the few factors that depends on player skill more than character skill. Having a speed advantage should be very important.
The only nerf I support for Dramiel is reduction of drone bay.
Dramiel should remain the most powerful faction frigate, but it should cost more. Double the cost of BPCs and the price will justify its effectiveness.
Don't make EVE more boring by cutting the elite out of small scale PvP.
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Chodie101
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:38:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Chodie101 on 25/02/2011 19:48:01
Originally by: Ephemeron
I'm against any more speed nerfs.
If anything, other ship classes need a speed boost. Speed should play important role in combat - it is one of the few factors that depends on player skill more than character skill. Having a speed advantage should be very important.
The only nerf I support for Dramiel is reduction of drone bay.
Dramiel should remain the most powerful faction frigate, but it should cost more. Double the cost of BPCs and the price will justify its effectiveness.
Don't make EVE more boring by cutting the elite out of small scale PvP.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
Also not supporting because OP thread title is talking about balance for all frigates and then he singles one in particular out in his post.
I am a firm believer that if something is deemed to be out of balance, balance should be sought by buffing alternatives rather than nerfing the thing that's good.
There's been far too much nerfing over recent years, and I really don't like it.
Lately things *seem* to have gotten better - for example, this time last year, Amarr was clearly the way to go for fleet PVP engagement - since then minmatar [gunnery] has been buffed and all of a sudden, with no nerfing required, there is a genuinely valuable, viable alternative.
Fantastic.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:44:00 -
[23]
Supported.
Signature removed. |
Raimo
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Don't make EVE more boring by cutting the elite out of small scale PvP.
You will get elite back if Dramiel gets nerfed as myriads of ship/fitting combos become viable again and people can more freely go about outsmarting each other...
And yes, I along many others in Genos did exploit the living crap out of dual prop Drams after the faction ship boost but that's what you get for being an early adopter tbh  (And I personally proved their invincibility a myth maybe 60+ times )
But the fact remains that these days the frigate game is just dramiels online which makes it boring for us all. I support the OP wholeheartedly.
- I'd personally emphasize the changes to lock range, speed etc to get tackling ceptors their jobs back, as well as nerfing the falloff bonus to deny the AC Dram the ability to both get under guns *and* kite in scram range with the same fit and ammo. Also for general 1v1 balance the DPS/EHP ratio does indeed need some toning down.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 19:53:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Chodie101
Also not supporting because OP thread title is talking about balance for all frigates and then he singles one in particular out in his post.
I am a firm believer that if something is deemed to be out of balance, balance should be sought by buffing alternatives rather than nerfing the thing that's good.
The thing is, frigates are balanced quite nicely right now, except for the Dram. I don't necessarily disagree on an overall frigate boost/ balance "shake" but that's a thing that is a lot of work to do for CCP, OTOH putting the Dram in place would be quite trivial for them and it is really making the frigate game much worse for a good while now.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:07:00 -
[26]
Quote:
You will get elite back if Dramiel gets nerfed as myriads of ship/fitting combos become viable again and people can more freely go about outsmarting each other...
This already works right now. You can kill a Dramiel using something other than a Dramiel. A quick review of killboards would show that to be true. There are even cases when a Dramiel gets killed by frigates of other type.
Elite PvP is all about overcoming challenges. If I get a 100 mediocre choices, where every choice is just as good as the other, then there's hardly any challenge. You just pick whatever and go with it, knowing whatever the enemy got isn't gonna be any better. In that situation, the number of people in fleet becomes more important than what each individual flies.
The Blob hates anything elite, the blob wants uniformity.
When I successfully kill a Dramiel, I feel much better about my accomplishment than I do killing any other frig. I don't want to lose that feeling of accomplishment.
The only thing that bothers me is that Dramiel doesn't cost enough. It should hurt more to lose.
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Chodie101
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:09:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Chodie101 on 25/02/2011 20:09:50
Originally by: Raimo
(And I personally proved their invincibility a myth maybe 60+ times )
But the fact remains that these days the frigate game is just dramiels online which makes it boring for us all. I support the OP wholeheartedly.
Well, I don't know what exactly you did to prove their invincibility a myth, unless you died a lot in them, which merely goes to reinforce Ephemeron's point that fast ships require good piloting skills rather than high SP.
As for the frigate game currently being Dramiels online - I do agree, but this can be balanced by buffing the others and thereby offering viable alternatives to a) flying a dramiel and b) killing a dramiel with something other than another dramiel - why make a good thing sh*tty, when you can make many sh*tty things good?
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:26:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ephemeron
There are even cases when a Dramiel gets killed by frigates of other type.
Wut? Some other frigate can kill a Dramiel? That's outrageous... |
Raimo
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:27:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote:
You will get elite back if Dramiel gets nerfed as myriads of ship/fitting combos become viable again and people can more freely go about outsmarting each other...
This already works right now. You can kill a Dramiel using something other than a Dramiel. A quick review of killboards would show that to be true. There are even cases when a Dramiel gets killed by frigates of other type.
Elite PvP is all about overcoming challenges. If I get a 100 mediocre choices, where every choice is just as good as the other, then there's hardly any challenge. You just pick whatever and go with it, knowing whatever the enemy got isn't gonna be any better. In that situation, the number of people in fleet becomes more important than what each individual flies.
The Blob hates anything elite, the blob wants uniformity.
When I successfully kill a Dramiel, I feel much better about my accomplishment than I do killing any other frig. I don't want to lose that feeling of accomplishment.
The only thing that bothers me is that Dramiel doesn't cost enough. It should hurt more to lose.
Let's drop the "elite" moniker now, ok? It's making the thread silly and it's not "elite" in the slightest to fly a Dramiel these days...
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.02.25 20:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Raimo
Let's drop the "elite" moniker now, ok? It's making the thread silly and it's not "elite" in the slightest to fly a Dramiel these days...
Dramiel and faction/pirate ships are something like Legendary Gear so in fact, yes it is elite PVP, in WoW though...sadly in EVE very soon(already) too.
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