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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.06 00:46:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Val''Dore on 06/03/2011 00:55:39
 Originally by: Original Concept Thread
The odd name for this thread basically means Killing the Tier System.
Pros and Cons of the current tier system for tech I ships:
Pros
Cons
- Obsoletes nearly half the Tech I ship lineup simply by existing
- Arbitrarily dictates ship build cost
- Impacts balance excessively
- Has no logical basis
I see several ways to go about committing tiericide:
- Reduce all class appropriate skill requirements to lvl 1 (the skill that affects the bonuses)
- Change material cost to be based on mass (Tech 1 only)
- Adjust hp, cap, and fitting values to be more normalized
- Make the ship bonuses and slots be the differentiating factors
- Tweak individual ships to be more unique if there is excessive overlap
- Possibly add role bonuses to each ship to further define them (such as the Omen's could be 50% optimal range, Caracal's might be 25% shield resist, Stabber's could be 50% webifier range, etc)
Any thoughts?
Link to Original Thread
Addendums to be added.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.06 01:12:00 -
[2]
Reserved for Addendums
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Rented
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Posted - 2011.03.06 03:50:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Rented on 06/03/2011 03:50:31
Posting to confirm the Tier system is terrible.
Battleship tiers are mostly just fine, but a large portion of cruisers/frigates are tier-ed into awfulness... this is sad 
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.06 05:18:00 -
[4]
as always, i support this idea
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.06 10:16:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Rented
Edited by: Rented on 06/03/2011 03:50:31
Posting to confirm the Tier system is terrible.
Battleship tiers are mostly just fine, but a large portion of cruisers/frigates are tier-ed into awfulness... this is sad
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.06 10:46:00 -
[6]
I sort of agree, but I think you're coming at it from the wrong angle.
The problem that needs fixing is that a whole bunch of the available T1 ships are worthless garbage, the fact that CCP decided to make some of them worthless garbage as some quirk of a tier system is rather beside the point (and really, there's a number of higher-tier ships that are worthless garbage as well). I agree that basing varied material costs and skill requirements on the tier system is fairly pointless, but tweaks to the actual attributes of each ship should be done on the basis of making that individual ship useful and balanced, not as part of a drive to remove tiering.
Half a thumbs up, I guess.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.06 12:07:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
I sort of agree, but I think you're coming at it from the wrong angle.
The problem that needs fixing is that a whole bunch of the available T1 ships are worthless garbage, the fact that CCP decided to make some of them worthless garbage as some quirk of a tier system is rather beside the point (and really, there's a number of higher-tier ships that are worthless garbage as well). I agree that basing varied material costs and skill requirements on the tier system is fairly pointless, but tweaks to the actual attributes of each ship should be done on the basis of making that individual ship useful and balanced, not as part of a drive to remove tiering.
Half a thumbs up, I guess.
It goes hand in hand really. The higher tier ships that people generally consider useless are really just suffering from a niche or complete lack of a role. Such as the Maller... the thing should be the Cruiser Harbinger.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
grypher
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Posted - 2011.03.06 14:31:00 -
[8]
+1 of course.
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Jahpahjay
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Posted - 2011.03.06 15:39:00 -
[9]
Let's give eve some "new" and improved ships to work with. It should be fairly easy to implement given that there won't be any new ship modules to make--just tweaking existing code to make the ships on par with each other.
Granted I know it's not as easy as saying it, but hopefully this is low hanging fruit and an easy win for all of eve and it's diverse citizens.
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.03.06 20:06:00 -
[10]
You're talking about a whole expansion's worth of work here. If it was an option between the T1 rebalance (and despite the terminology, that is exactly what you're talking about) and practically everything else that could be done to improve the game, I'd put the T1 rebalance on the bottom of the list. Sure, it could be done, and sure it might make the game a little more interesting for 15 minutes until people figure out the new fotm, but the effort/reward ratio is divide by zero.
This is not a "thousand papercuts" or "size doesn't matter" proposal, it's a "no other expansion this cycle" proposal, and that sounds like an absolutely awful idea.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.03.06 20:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: mkmin
You're talking about...
They managed to redesign all the faction frigates and add new faction hulls all as a side note to an expansion.
Also note the rejuvenating effect the new scrams, webs and speed balancing (ie. QR) had on PvP, that too was a side note to an expansion.
Besides, if proposals are to be restricted by whatever may require :effort: from the Devs, then there would just be one thread here, namely "FIX LAGZOR!".
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Fistme
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Posted - 2011.03.06 20:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: mkmin
You're talking about a whole expansion's worth of work here. If it was an option between the T1 rebalance (and despite the terminology, that is exactly what you're talking about) and practically everything else that could be done to improve the game, I'd put the T1 rebalance on the bottom of the list. Sure, it could be done, and sure it might make the game a little more interesting for 15 minutes until people figure out the new fotm, but the effort/reward ratio is divide by zero.
This is not a "thousand papercuts" or "size doesn't matter" proposal, it's a "no other expansion this cycle" proposal, and that sounds like an absolutely awful idea.
if you think that the eve community would not welcome a large scale "expansion" that addresses the balance of all t1 ships (most people fly t1 ships btw) then you're being silly.
I can almost guarantee you that if CCP overhauled all t1 ships TONS of old players would come back to see what has been changed. I've come back multiple times for expansions that have far less content than what is being suggested here...
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.03.06 20:37:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: mkmin
You're talking about...
They managed to redesign all the faction frigates and add new faction hulls all as a side note to an expansion.
Also note the rejuvenating effect the new scrams, webs and speed balancing (ie. QR) had on PvP, that too was a side note to an expansion.
Besides, if proposals are to be restricted by whatever may require :effort: from the Devs, then there would just be one thread here, namely "FIX LAGZOR!".
Yes, because an ad hoc rebalance of faction frigs made all of them used not just the dramiel.  And the speed nerf didn't cause all kinds of bugs, and break the balance on dozens of other ships and 2 full races. They are still fixing the unanticipated imbalances caused by the speed nerf, and it was almost 2 years ago. Now the suggestion is to redesign every single T1 ship in the game, essentially from scratch, and make sure all the T2, T3, and faction ships, with the limitless number of potential fittings, stay in complete balance. Just because a suggestion is presented as simple, does not make an idea simple. And the ultimate results would be a simple change of the flavor of the month.
I maintain that there is no significant gameplay reward to do an entire rebalance at this time, especially considering the massive amount of resources needed to do the job well instead of halfassed. Also considering other aspects of in-space needs to be rebalanced, balancing the ships first would mean once other more necessary balances are done, the ship rebalancing would then be broken and all those developer resources completely wasted.
It's not a bad idea long-term, just not a good idea right now.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.06 21:45:00 -
[14]
Most of the rebalance is native to dumping tiers. Further tweaking would be warranted or not on an individual hull basis.
I'm sure CCP is better than any of us at planning out what they are spending dev time on.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Fistme
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Posted - 2011.03.06 21:45:00 -
[15]
Anyone who is suggestion that a total revamp of t1 ships as "simple" is foolish, this i can agree upon. However re-balancing a large part of the game all at once has some key advantages even outside the overly simple explanation of "making everything useful".
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Sahmul
The Grimreapers.
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Posted - 2011.03.06 23:18:00 -
[16]
Support, ships should be balanced on role, not some arbitrary "tier"
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Vertisce Soritenshi
O.W.N. Corp
OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.07 01:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sahmul
Support, ships should be balanced on role, not some arbitrary "tier"
lol...Wut? So you want to make it even more like "rock, paper, scissors" than it already is? Sorry...not supported. You take away the Tier system and you ruin the diversity in the game.
Then once the Tier system is revamped you have to revamped the skills system to go along with it. It will never happen. Tier system is here to stay.
NO BOOBIES LEFT BEHIND! |
Sahmul
The Grimreapers.
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Posted - 2011.03.07 02:57:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Originally by: Sahmul
Support, ships should be balanced on role, not some arbitrary "tier"
lol...Wut? So you want to make it even more like "rock, paper, scissors" than it already is? Sorry...not supported. You take away the Tier system and you ruin the diversity in the game.
Then once the Tier system is revamped you have to revamped the skills system to go along with it. It will never happen. Tier system is here to stay.
You know, I'd prefer Rock-Paper-Scissors balance to Rifter-Rifter-Rifter that we have in place at the moment. I say this as someone who adores the Rifter incidentally, but it also shouldn't be the obvious choice for every bloody role except maybe scanning.
Balance based on roles will increase diversity, not reduce it, because you will be able to choose a ship to fit a role, rather than just doing a few hours training and using the Rifter for everything.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.07 04:22:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Originally by: Sahmul
Support, ships should be balanced on role, not some arbitrary "tier"
lol...Wut? So you want to make it even more like "rock, paper, scissors" than it already is?
You must be one of those who think one ship should do everything, rather than using the correct ship for the purpose.
Quote:
Sorry...not supported. You take away the Tier system and you ruin the diversity in the game.
What a foolishly ignorant statement.
Quote:
Then once the Tier system is revamped you have to revamped the skills system to go along with it.
The skill system would need exactly zero changes related to removing tier.
Quote:
It will never happen. Tier system is here to stay.
Not your call to make. |
Naomi Ito
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Posted - 2011.03.07 09:49:00 -
[20]
Supported! 
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Jagga Spikes
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.03.07 11:06:00 -
[21]
making ships useful? yes.
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: Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
whaynethepain
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Posted - 2011.03.07 12:05:00 -
[22]
Yea, nice one.
"The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP."
Yea, me and my mates want more ship types, I want faction destroyers, we have discussed formation flying too, this would be very useful.
Nice one, cheers.
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Levistus Junior
Trojan Trolls
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.03.07 12:10:00 -
[23]
Supported, although not sure whether this should take priority over other, more urgent stuff.
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Tub Chil
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Posted - 2011.03.07 12:52:00 -
[24]
while supporting this I realize that nothing will change in the space for the next 2-3 years. shoes, jackets, sunglasses and sexy asses are way too important.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.07 16:48:00 -
[25]
Frigates are fun. People use T1 frigates from time to time no matter their SP. T1 cruisers... not so much. Honestly, the only people who use T1 cruisers are people who haven't yet trained BC or T2 cruisers. Most people blow through the T1 cruiser phase in less than a month. As such, in the grand scheme of things, rebalancing ships that are rarely used isn't worth the time or effort right now.
Rebalance frigates (T1, faction, T2)? Yes. Battleship tiers make sense. T2 cruisers could use a bit of rebalancing (but not terribly important either right now).
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.07 16:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bagehi
Frigates are fun. People use T1 frigates from time to time no matter their SP. T1 cruisers... not so much. Honestly, the only people who use T1 cruisers are people who haven't yet trained BC or T2 cruisers. Most people blow through the T1 cruiser phase in less than a month.
Most people get to BSes as fast as the skill system allows, that doesn't mean that is the smart thing to do.
Quote:
As such, in the grand scheme of things, rebalancing ships that are rarely used isn't worth the time or effort right now.
The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen.
Quote:
Battleship tiers make sense.
No they don't, but I'll bite the bait anyway: Why?
Quote:
T2 cruisers could use a bit of rebalancing (but not terribly important either right now).
Nothing is terribly important right now, but T2 are not part of this topic either way.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.07 17:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Val'Dore
Most people get to BSes as fast as the skill system allows, that doesn't mean that is the smart thing to do.
BSs are usually a bad idea. Most end up sticking with BCs, which is the logical choice for players between 1-12 months.
Originally by: Val'Dore
The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen.
From a skill perspective or from a construction cost perspective?
Originally by: Val'Dore
No they don't, but I'll bite the bait anyway: Why?
A tier 1 BS < tier 2 BS < tier 3 BS
When it comes to tank, damage output, and versatility, the higher the tier BS, the more you get out of it.
Originally by: Val'Dore
Nothing is terribly important right now, but T2 are not part of this topic either way.
Sure, I was just pointing out that rebalancing is needed throughout the game.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.03.07 18:53:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Val'Dore
The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen.
Then what's the point? Cost differences either don't matter or are actually a good thing (gives rookies something to work for.) Skill training differences don't matter.
Changing those 2 parts of the tier system would affect absolutely nothing without a complete rebalance of all ships of every size, every tech level, and of every class, plus all the weapon systems, and every module. Intensive computer simulations would need to be run to calculate that no ships will have an advantage over the others and thus become the "flavor of the month" and make the rest obsolete. And when you're done, the state of a game where every single thing is balanced, it will mean that there cannot be any way for any ship to gain an advantage over another which means every ship feels exactly like every other ship. That is bad for gameplay (and the reason I find vanilla shooters like Halo boring) and a complete waste of massive amounts of dev time to get the results you are looking for.
Ships will never be completely balanced, and that's okay. Small balancing changes are made all the time. If you have something specific, propose it. As a general "everything should be fixed" well, no duh, sherlock. I hope the devs are smart enough to realize how poorly thought out this idea is, and what a massive waste of time it would be to carry out.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.03.07 21:12:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Val'Dore
The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen.
No, the important thing is the rebalance part. Tiering on its own is not an issue at all.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.07 22:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Val'Dore
The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen.
No, the important thing is the rebalance part. Tiering on its own is not an issue at all.
They go hand in hand I spose. You can't have a tier system and have balance too.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.08 13:31:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Val'Dore
They go hand in hand I spose. You can't have a tier system and have balance too.
Sure you can, its just a question of how much is dictated by the tiering and how much is down to individual ship attributes. Right now (to this extent I agree with your premise) there's too much seemingly dictated by tier, hence things like the low end frigates hopelessly lacking in slots and EHP.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.08 19:16:00 -
[32]
Exactly, most of the evidence of the tier system are the inherent imbalances, so by nuking the tier system, we nuke the imbalances. So you are right.
We just need more thumbs up posts.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.09 19:22:00 -
[33]
There has to be more detractors or something that can say their piece.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
ITTigerClawIK
Amarr
Galactic Rangers
Galactic-Rangers
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Posted - 2011.03.09 23:31:00 -
[34]
i personaly never really thought of the different ships as in different teirs when i first started playing EVE i more thought of them as a different hull with a different role , and i think thats how they should be in the first place with relitively different stats and miniral req's for the different hull types based on size of ship and what it is designed for, like more combat oriantated ships would require more megacite due to it being used more in weapon systems and so on and so forth
Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected]) |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.10 01:57:00 -
[35]
Right, however currently, all of that is arbitrary and unrelated to role or mass.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.13 03:21:00 -
[36]
Shameless Bump. Where are the freakin trolls?
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
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Posted - 2011.03.14 12:16:00 -
[37]
The isk difference between a Tier 1 BC and a Tier 2 BC is next to nothing, but the performance difference is enormous, making almost all of the Tier 1 BCs useless. Same goes for frigates, cruisers and BS's.
The tier system is horrible.
____________________________________________
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.20 01:35:00 -
[38]
I wouldn't call an 80 to 150% price difference nothing. It may be chump change to us, but the price differentiation is significant.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Dark Drifter
Amarr
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.20 18:35:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Val'Dore
It goes hand in hand really. The higher tier ships that people generally consider useless are really just suffering from a niche or complete lack of a role. Such as the Maller... the thing should be the Cruiser Harbinger.
maller to proph <-amazing buffer capability
omen to harby <-exelent gankage at range
this is the thinking
to our departed friend EDD "april 09" fly true man |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.21 03:04:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Dark Drifter
Originally by: Val'Dore
It goes hand in hand really. The higher tier ships that people generally consider useless are really just suffering from a niche or complete lack of a role. Such as the Maller... the thing should be the Cruiser Harbinger.
maller to proph <-amazing buffer capability
omen to harby <-exelent gankage at range
this is the thinking
Which is the problem, some of those ships are pregimped by the tier system. The Omen does good theoretical DPS, but it fails at the actual application of DPS. The Prophecy and Maller both fill a niche role that really doesn't need so many ships in it. If the Proph had 8 turrets, it might be viable with no dmg bonus.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
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Vance Black
Caldari
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
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Posted - 2011.03.21 03:20:00 -
[41]
The problem with the teir system was never that it simply exists, just that CCP have lets face it, been pretty poor at revisiting old balance problems and fixing broken ships.
Lack of iteration is what is causing the issues with old ships, its nothing to do with teirs whatsoever, when was the last time stock T1 ships were even looked at balance wise?
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Your clone is mine |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.03.21 05:01:00 -
[42]
do it!
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.21 06:09:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vance Black
The problem with the teir system was never that it simply exists, just that CCP have lets face it, been pretty poor at revisiting old balance problems and fixing broken ships.
They have have a spotty record with that sure. They are good about revisiting things that affect the richest players, but not so much about the general populace. I don't think I've seen a patch since Sovereignty was implemented that didn't have a lot of changes to 0.0 specific game content inlcuded.
Quote:
Lack of iteration is what is causing the issues with old ships, its nothing to do with teirs whatsoever, when was the last time stock T1 ships were even looked at balance wise?
I'm don't think iteration means what you think it means.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Nyalnara
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2011.03.21 11:09:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Tub Chil
while supporting this I realize that nothing will change in the space for the next 2-3 years. shoes, jackets, sunglasses and sexy asses are way too important.
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Vance Black
Caldari
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
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Posted - 2011.03.24 03:54:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Vance Black on 24/03/2011 03:56:32
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Vance Black
The problem with the teir system was never that it simply exists, just that CCP have lets face it, been pretty poor at revisiting old balance problems and fixing broken ships.
They have have a spotty record with that sure. They are good about revisiting things that affect the richest players, but not so much about the general populace. I don't think I've seen a patch since Sovereignty was implemented that didn't have a lot of changes to 0.0 specific game content inlcuded.
Quote:
Lack of iteration is what is causing the issues with old ships, its nothing to do with teirs whatsoever, when was the last time stock T1 ships were even looked at balance wise?
I'm don't think iteration means what you think it means.
Iteration means the act of repeating a process usually with the aim of approaching a desired goal or target or result. Each repetition of the process is also called an "iteration," and the results of one iteration are used as the starting point for the next iteration. (had to double check wikipedia, havent done any programming in a few years since i left uni)
CCP Tuxford rebalanced the Tech level 1 ships a few years back (the original balancing process), (cant remember exact dates). They have not been revisited since. That sounds like a lack of iteration to me.
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Your clone is mine |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.24 03:56:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Vance Black
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Vance Black
The problem with the teir system was never that it simply exists, just that CCP have lets face it, been pretty poor at revisiting old balance problems and fixing broken ships.
They have have a spotty record with that sure. They are good about revisiting things that affect the richest players, but not so much about the general populace. I don't think I've seen a patch since Sovereignty was implemented that didn't have a lot of changes to 0.0 specific game content inlcuded.
Quote:
Lack of iteration is what is causing the issues with old ships, its nothing to do with teirs whatsoever, when was the last time stock T1 ships were even looked at balance wise?
I'm don't think iteration means what you think it means.
Iteration means the act of repeating a process usually with the aim of approaching a desired goal or target or result. Each repetition of the process is also called an "iteration," and the results of one iteration are used as the starting point for the next iteration.
CCP Tuxford rebalanced the Tech level 1 ships a few years back, (cant remember exact dates). They have not been revisited since. That sounds like a lack of iteration to me.
You should be more specific about what iteration you refer to then since that was impossible to glean from your post.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Vance Black
Caldari
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
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Posted - 2011.03.24 03:57:00 -
[47]
check the edit
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Your clone is mine |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.24 17:39:00 -
[48]
Right, anyway, doesn't change the fact that Tuxford didn't dump the tier system and it still needs to be axed.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.10 17:45:00 -
[49]
Back from the honeymoon. Now for the Nyx Bump.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2011.04.11 01:15:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Dark Drifter
maller to proph <-amazing buffer capability
A buffer is nothing without something backing it up. A tank only matters when you're being shot at, gank always helps. Who cares if you have double the ehp, but paying for that with having half the dps, one third the speed, no dronebay, the agility of a glacier...
Being obvious bait is not a role.
Originally by: Dark Drifter
omen to harby <-exelent gankage at range
Are you aware that a rail thorax(or even a laserax) outdamages an omen at that range? The same is true of a caracal, or a shield rupture.
Not only do those ships outperform it at it's intended role, but they also have the flexibility that it doesn't. There is no reason to pick an omen over another cruiser unless you can't fly them.
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Heavenly Blues
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Posted - 2011.04.11 11:42:00 -
[51]
Not supported.
Where is the CCP that is capable of producing balanced content? Everything they have touched the last 3 years has turned into ****.
Fix all the damn bugs. CCP is incapable of producing quality content. Just leave it alone before they **** it up even more.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.11 15:26:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Heavenly Blues
Not supported.
Where is the CCP that is capable of producing balanced content? Everything they have touched the last 3 years has turned into ****.
Fix all the damn bugs. CCP is incapable of producing quality content. Just leave it alone before they **** it up even more.
Thanks for the bump.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.17 19:12:00 -
[53]
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Crazy KSK
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Posted - 2011.04.18 00:49:00 -
[54]
*wonders why he didn't support this already*
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Kiev Duran
Alpha Empire
ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2011.04.18 15:31:00 -
[55]
I for one would like to see more of the ships underused due to something as arbitrary as tier, such as the Ferox.
Originally by: Adaera
Caldari special ops
"If a problem can't be solved with missiles - you're just not using enough!"
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.19 00:58:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kiev Duran
I for one would like to see more of the ships underused due to something as arbitrary as tier, such as the Ferox.
I like the Ferox, but yeah, it could definately use a bit of a stat boost to really shine next to other BCs.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Mr DurkaDur
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Posted - 2011.04.19 01:07:00 -
[57]
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.19 12:27:00 -
[58]
For the record, I suspect that CCP is thinking about tiering issues, as I made a general comment about imbalance within the frigate range in one of the round tables at Fanfest and Chronotis asked (unprompted) whether I was talking about tiers.
Still, can't hurt to keep talking about it.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.19 16:18:00 -
[59]
Indeed, thanks for that tidbit.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Sepheir Sepheron
Genco
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Posted - 2011.04.19 17:28:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Val'Dore
The important thing is removing tiers, the rebalance might not even need to happen.
No, the important thing is the rebalance part. Tiering on its own is not an issue at all.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2011.04.20 05:32:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
For the record, I suspect that CCP is thinking about tiering issues, as I made a general comment about imbalance within the frigate range in one of the round tables at Fanfest and Chronotis asked (unprompted) whether I was talking about tiers.
Ah, that was you. I remember the conversation, something like "Why is it that ever frig except for the Rifter sucks? They're ****ing HORRIBLE, DO SOMETHING!!!" 
Supporting the proposal of removing or at least toning down the tier concept.
________________________
CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation. |
Khaeros
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Posted - 2011.04.20 05:57:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Sahmul
...ships should be balanced on role, not some arbitrary "tier"
+1
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Sephiroth CloneVII
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Posted - 2011.04.21 02:44:00 -
[63]
supported, it wouldn't take a insane amount of resources, we are not asking for uber new graphics or anything, just balancing them in base number of slots, changing base stats.
Have the ships differing in the ability's that increase per level, and type of slots they have (highs of missiles or guns, one more mid or one more low).
Allot of people here could think up some pretty simple numbers close to what it should be, just takes implementation.
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.04.21 15:35:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Swynet on 21/04/2011 15:35:19
Originally by: Val'Dore
It goes hand in hand really. The higher tier ships that people generally consider useless are really just suffering from a niche or complete lack of a role. Such as the Maller... the thing should be the Cruiser Harbinger.
Let me give you another example, I'll not even try with BC's or C's Gallente class, it's an old horse:
Hyperion - The Megathron fills the same role much better making the Hyperion pointless and an expensive hangar queen.
Dominix- versatility, is there any other BS in the game except the Rattlesnake that can fill the same number of roles?
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.22 17:58:00 -
[65]
Well, the Hyperion would be a much more viable boat if it hadn't been intended to replace the Megathron instead of just giving the Gallente a decent sniper BS. But in tiericide, one of those two would need a change, hell even before tiericide.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Rykuss
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Posted - 2011.05.04 23:18:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Val'Dore
Well, the Hyperion would be a much more viable boat if it hadn't been intended to replace the Megathron instead of just giving the Gallente a decent sniper BS. But in tiericide, one of those two would need a change, hell even before tiericide.
I agree and support this.
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Teranul
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Posted - 2011.05.05 00:08:00 -
[67]
Just making sure I've shown my support for this.
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TheMahdi
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Posted - 2011.05.05 01:23:00 -
[68]
Supported as always.
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Renarla
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Posted - 2011.05.05 03:21:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Renarla on 05/05/2011 03:21:05
+1
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.05.05 05:44:00 -
[70]
In case I didn't support this already.
Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody! |
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Oeduard Kriegge
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Posted - 2011.05.05 08:10:00 -
[71]
Yup
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2011.05.05 11:14:00 -
[72]
Sure. Also, ponies would be sweet.
I do support this, but I think there's a rather idealized idea of how easy balancing it all would actually be. By that I mean, removing the tier system would be hard. If you try doing balance on that many ships at once, you're bound to screw something up.
What we really need is a team of designers called "Team Judgement" or something, a team dedicated specifically to ship and module balance. Lots of mathematicians and hardcore designers, you know what I'm saying? I mean a team specifically dedicated to balance, looking for trends and such.
I support this topic because it's a good idea. But I'm not sure it'd be even remotely easy.
Also, one last thing that bugged me: Tiers provide progression within ship classes. Removing the tier system would kill that progression. It's not a huge pro of the tier system, but it is a pro.
Anyway, supported.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.05.06 04:11:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Sure. Also, ponies would be sweet.
My Alliance for a Pony.
Quote:
I do support this, but I think there's a rather idealized idea of how easy balancing it all would actually be. By that I mean, removing the tier system would be hard. If you try doing balance on that many ships at once, you're bound to screw something up.
Not at all. Develop a standardized ruleset for stats and then make each deviation a subset of rules.
For example. The Battlecruiser class has 9900 hp total. The standard would be 3300/3300/3300 hull/armor/shield. Racial flavor would put Minmatar at -20% Hull and +10% Armor/Shield. Caldari -10% Hull/Armor and +20% Shield. Amarr at -10% Hull/Shield and +20% Armor. Gallente -20% Shield and +10% Hull/Armor. The Cyclone is a Shield oriented ship so would get a further +10% to shield and -10% to armor. The Hurricane would fit the standard Minmatar Deviation.
Each race will have at least one ship at the Racial Deviation of the Standard. Then you simply tweak individual ships around that. Race neutral ships would be the 'purest'.
Quote:
What we really need is a team of designers called "Team Judgement" or something, a team dedicated specifically to ship and module balance. Lots of mathematicians and hardcore designers, you know what I'm saying? I mean a team specifically dedicated to balance, looking for trends and such.
CCP could pay me $1000 to do it for them. I have half a mind to do it for free anyway.
Quote:
I support this topic because it's a good idea. But I'm not sure it'd be even remotely easy.
It's only hard if you try to do it without a solid foundation.
Quote:
Also, one last thing that bugged me: Tiers provide progression within ship classes. Removing the tier system would kill that progression. It's not a huge pro of the tier system, but it is a pro.
Actually, they force progression. But since progression in EvE is entirely based on sp, knowledge, associations, and ISK... there is no need for a mundane planned obsolescence of entire lines of ships.
Quote:
Anyway, supported.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Tekedo
Danger Girl.
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Posted - 2011.05.06 04:23:00 -
[74]
+1
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Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
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Posted - 2011.05.06 04:42:00 -
[75]
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Gynoceros
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Posted - 2011.05.06 06:33:00 -
[76]
Supported, except for battleships. There are useful battleships in all tiers and the prices (50M - 150M) are high enough that the separation still makes financial sense.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.06 07:15:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Black Dranzer
What we really need is a team of designers called "Team Judgement" or something, a team dedicated specifically to ship and module balance. Lots of mathematicians and hardcore designers, you know what I'm saying? I mean a team specifically dedicated to balance, looking for trends and such.
This is something the CSM are intending to push for in the very near future.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.05.06 17:01:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Gynoceros
Supported, except for battleships. There are useful battleships in all tiers and the prices (50M - 150M) are high enough that the separation still makes financial sense.
Battleships suffer from Tiering too.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.05.21 19:54:00 -
[79]
Pot hole!
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Swynet
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Posted - 2011.05.22 11:05:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Gynoceros
Supported, except for battleships. There are useful battleships in all tiers and the prices (50M - 150M) are high enough that the separation still makes financial sense.
Battleships suffer from Tiering too.
Gallente: the battleship tiers is non sense. The price tag/bill of materials has nothing reasonable imho.
You have the noob BS that becomes nasty stuff in the hands of some troglodyte full lvl5 skills (yes a few century's of game for those)
The two gun bs's lack of pg/cpu/cap recharge/slots with price tags difference of 100%, skill intensive for both but only one is worthy and gives you for your isk in most situations -until you fly with Minie counterpart and decide to cross train ASAP, but it's another thread story.
Honestly, what's the purpose of Tiers system if the only [stuff] different is the build cost? -shouldn't the tiers system define specific roles?
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Alara IonStorm
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Posted - 2011.05.22 21:26:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 22/05/2011 21:37:14
Save the T1 Cruiser Line Up.
Things like the T1 Logi's
EWAR Ships like the Bellicose and Celestis.
The Omen and Stabber
The Thorax, Moa, Maller.
Poor fitting, Slot Layout, Bonuses have plauged these ships. T2 Battlecruisers are a similar price and can handle almost any role better. Like the T1 Logi's there role isn't even managed well do to poor fitting/cap/bonuses.
Ships like the Punisher, Maller and Prophecy have a Laser bonus so bad most people cram Capless Autocannons on. At least they gave the Abaddon a Dmg Bonus along with the Armor Resist. The Moa and Ferox that both have less range and Dmg then a good Drake.
Some serious role redefine and balance changes would be nice.
No more useless ships.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.05.26 03:23:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Swynet
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Gynoceros
Supported, except for battleships. There are useful battleships in all tiers and the prices (50M - 150M) are high enough that the separation still makes financial sense.
Battleships suffer from Tiering too.
Gallente: the battleship tiers is non sense. The price tag/bill of materials has nothing reasonable imho.
Any race really, none of the Tech 1 ships have any significant differences in technology, so the comparative cost and ability imbalances make little sense.
Quote:
Honestly, what's the purpose of Tiers system if the only [stuff] different is the build cost? -shouldn't the tiers system define specific roles related to lvl skills?
In theory, yes. But in actuality, all tiers do is arbitrarily gimp stats and entire lines of ships.
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Save the T1 Cruiser Line Up.
Things like the T1 Logi's
EWAR Ships like the Bellicose and Celestis.
The Omen and Stabber
The Thorax, Moa, Maller.
Poor fitting, Slot Layout, Bonuses have plauged these ships. T2 Battlecruisers are a similar price and can handle almost any role better. Like the T1 Logi's there role isn't even managed well do to poor fitting/cap/bonuses.
It almost seems like Tech 1 ships were prenerfed for tiering reasons so that Tech 2 ships can be that much more powerful in direct comparison.
Quote:
Ships like the Punisher, Maller and Prophecy have a Laser bonus so bad most people cram Capless Autocannons on. At least they gave the Abaddon a Dmg Bonus along with the Armor Resist. The Moa and Ferox that both have less range and Dmg then a good Drake.
To be fair, lasers are the most damaging weapons with no ships bonus applied.
Quote:
Some serious role redefine and balance changes would be nice.
Precisely the goal of Tiericide.
Quote:
No more useless ships.
See above.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Alara IonStorm
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Posted - 2011.05.26 05:30:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Val'Dore
.To be fair, lasers are the most damaging weapons with no ships bonus applied.
Not really, between the better fitting of Autocannons allowing for more tank, Dmg selection and being completely capless, without a combet bonus they are just better. Cap Use is a terrible bonus for these ships, it gets completely ignored for fitting capless weapons. There should be an incentive to fit them, if people want the better fitting, capless ones they can still use them but if they want a weapons bonus that will help them in combat then fit lasers. A Cap Bonus without a weapons bonus is just sad.
It wouldn't overpower the ship, HAM's have the same range as pulse and Heavies longer range then Beams so the Prophecy wouldn't be any more powerful then the Drake. The Maller would still have no Frig Defense and the Punisher would have to give up tank to fit them. I think a Dmg Bonus along with Teiracide would be a good thing to get Lasers to be used on these ships.
Quote:
See above.
That wasn't really a question to be answered, more of a statement...
Of Support.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.05.26 08:53:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/05/2011 08:53:26
Originally by: Val'Dore
Quote:
No more useless ships.
Precisely the goal of Tiericide.
You need to be careful of the balance between ship classes, as well as between ships in a class. I'm thinking specifically of the balance between cruisers and battlecruisers here, as well as between battlecruisers and the awful close-range HACs that no-one flies (Deimos and Sacrilege).
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.05.26 12:40:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/05/2011 08:53:26
Originally by: Val'Dore
Quote:
No more useless ships.
Precisely the goal of Tiericide.
You need to be careful of the balance between ship classes, as well as between ships in a class. I'm thinking specifically of the balance between cruisers and battlecruisers here, as well as between battlecruisers and the awful close-range HACs that no-one flies (DieMost and Sacrilege).
Sorry, I just had to 
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.05.26 13:51:00 -
[86]
I actually saw someone flying a Deimos a few days ago. But when I killed it, despite their Falcon, Eve-Kill refused to accept the mail, saying that it was malformed! Maybe I should have edited the ship type to "Diemost"...
Battleclinic, being more old-fashioned, was happy to accept the mail with this museum-piece on though.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.05.26 16:44:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
That wasn't really a question to be answered, more of a statement...
Of Support.
I know that. 
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Dirlewanger
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Posted - 2011.05.27 12:29:00 -
[88]
Tiers should die. They do a lot of harm to t1 frigs and cruisers, but the best example are the Tier 1 BCs. They weren't much good; the Tier 2 ones became what BCs should have been from the start; and the Tier 1s became absolute crap (except the Brutix which is half-crap). By all means make them different, but do not impose an absolute disadvantage in grid, cap, armor, shield and - much worse - slots.
They should go the way of multiple-Q agents (but I miss this, ammounted a bit to a tax on stupidity), or BPCs equal to BPOs.
Its a system that has outlived any possible usefulness.
Omen and maller are like harbinger and prophecy. Everybody would use the omen like they do the rupture if it weren't castrated. The proph could still be a low dps, huge tank ship, but become useful by actually having another slot layout. This would give a choice. As is, no choice at all and the ship might not exist.
Apply to tier 1 and 2 BS as well, mind. The tier 3 are heavier, less agile, more sig versions so they ok.
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EnthusiGASM
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Posted - 2011.05.29 20:34:00 -
[89]
Edited by: EnthusiGASM on 29/05/2011 20:38:34
Interesting idea. As it is, there is no tier 3 missile only battleship (Caldari being the black sheep of Eve), so if this bumped up or brought down all battleship tiers to the same level (i.e: hit points and such) I guess that would satisfy... somewhat...
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Ai Mei
Starfish Operating Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.29 21:25:00 -
[90]
you can eliminate the tier system but what is it going to do? if you stream line the costs and make them all equal there will be no variation.
Do we really need to make this game so bland like the character creator? Hey remember when bloodlines meaned something? Now every character starts out practically the same with no advantage over another in areas, no weaknesses in areas, just a cookie cutter.
Removing the tier system would do that just to ships, they would be bland boring and there would be no advantage to flying one ship over another.
now lets break down the 1-6 on the list.
1. This is to prevent those little kids who buy buy plex from buying lots of big ships before they are really able to fly them. Seriously do you want someone in a sniper abbadon with only amarr bs 1 on your fleet op?
- NO. This is there to ensure people are ready to fly the ship properly.
2. So what change nothing? The heavier ships already weigh more. Also dont fix what isnt broken with material costs.
3. No, we dont need cookie cutter ships, we already have cookie cutter characters we dont need them in ships. There is no reason the dominix should have the same cap as a thron or a hyperion.
4. they are already like that.
5. elaborate - tweaks should be done on some ships.
6. NO, tech 1 is exactly that. TECH 1. they are not supposed to have super powers like their tech 2 variants. If you start giving tech 1 ships those special role powers like the tech 2 variants then you are going to erase the line that defines the need to shoot for tech 2 ships.
Eve is already getting too easy as it is, not make it any easier and bland.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.05.29 21:45:00 -
[91]
Why does this not have a support post from me in it?
Tier system needs to go. It's outdated, poorly designed and has no place in this game. |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.05.29 23:37:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Ai Mei
you can eliminate the tier system but what is it going to do? if you stream line the costs and make them all equal there will be no variation.
I never said there should be no variation. Only that any variation should be based on roles not tiers.
Quote:
Do we really need to make this game so bland like the character creator?
You mean how everyone looks like a Drake, Abaddon, Nyx, or Aeon with slightly different hair?
Quote:
Hey remember when bloodlines meaned something?
Yeah, I remember that. Then I remember Achura... and the insanity sauce that followed that.
Quote:
Now every character starts out practically the same with no advantage over another in areas, no weaknesses in areas, just a cookie cutter.
Oh I dunno, my character looks better than yours.
Quote:
Removing the tier system would do that just to ships, they would be bland boring and there would be no advantage to flying one ship over another.
I have no idea why you would think such a ridiculous thing. Unless you own a bunch of bpos.
Quote:
now lets break down the 1-6 on the list.
You can try
Quote:
1. This is to prevent those little kids who buy buy plex from buying lots of big ships before they are really able to fly them. Seriously do you want someone in a sniper abbadon with only amarr bs 1 on your fleet op?
- NO. This is there to ensure people are ready to fly the ship properly.
They would only need Amarr BS 1 to fit the requisite rack of 1400s. Anyone is welcome to my fleet ops, I don't discriminate.
Quote:
2. So what change nothing? The heavier ships already weigh more. Also dont fix what isnt broken with material costs.
So you DO own bpos!
Quote:
3. No, we dont need cookie cutter ships, we already have cookie cutter characters we dont need them in ships. There is no reason the dominix should have the same cap as a thron or a hyperion.
I never indicated they should. You came up with that on your own.
Quote:
4. they are already like that.
Thank you Captain Obvious.
Quote:
5. elaborate - tweaks should be done on some ships.
Hyperion and Megathron. Even without Tiericide they are prime examples of tweaking being necessary.
Quote:
6. NO, tech 1 is exactly that. TECH 1. they are not supposed to have super powers like their tech 2 variants. If you start giving tech 1 ships those special role powers like the tech 2 variants then you are going to erase the line that defines the need to shoot for tech 2 ships.
The relationship between Tech I and II should be about technology advancements, not roles. Lots of Tech I ships have role bonuses.
Quote:
Eve is already getting too easy as it is, not make it any easier and bland.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.05.30 10:31:00 -
[93]
Quote:
you can eliminate the tier system but what is it going to do? if you stream line the costs and make them all equal there will be no variation.
I really wish it was painful being as stupid as this guy.
Is a Drake the same as a Ferox? Not by a long shot.
Is a Drake better than a Ferox? Yup...
Why?
If they both had the same role, the tier system would be justified - but they don't, which means it's not just ships that get shafted for no real reason - it's entire playstyles.
The Breacher is laughably inferior to the Rifter but flies completely differently. The only reason it's in the sorry state it is is, you guessed it, the tier system.
If it was eliminated, you'd see nothing but greater variation.
More viable ships = more variety = more choice = better game.
_________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
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Posted - 2011.05.30 11:56:00 -
[94]
The tier system is just a sorry excuse of not trying to balance T1. As a result, there are ships that essentially exist only for completeness. Admitted, they have some flavour, such as minor speed and play style differences, but "buffing" these aspects would help considerably to see more of these lower-tier ships.
CCP's method of selecting tech two models in the past was "pick those ships with a cool model which are under-used" (according to some document). How about balancing a bit to make the ends meet right where things start, T1. After all, in today's EVE, a smart-ish player who follows the tutorials has a million or two after day one. It isn't like the old days when we needed to warp uphill both ways and mine veldspar to afford that mighty tier 2 frigate.
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Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.30 20:55:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Tub Chil
while supporting this I realize that nothing will change in the space for the next 2-3 years. shoes, jackets, sunglasses and sexy asses are way too important.
110% true.
Wolves are after kiddies $$$$$$$$$$$$.
=====
* Your signature file is broken. Please use one that will display - Fallout |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.06.03 07:34:00 -
[96]
Right, this topic is not going away.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.06.13 21:26:00 -
[97]
I hate how the good ideas tend to drown... throwing out the life ring.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.06.26 04:57:00 -
[98]
Maybe it is a waste of time, but I'm bumping this anyway.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Mattio11
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.26 05:20:00 -
[99]
yeah i like the idea of tweaking the ships so that it's their unique abilities/bonuses that set them apart. rather than being simply superior in HP and resists etc.
_____________________________________
"NO! TRY NOT!... Do. Or do not. ...There is no try!" |
Runawaypally
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2011.06.26 07:03:00 -
[100]
I definatly support the removal of the Tier system. I dont appreciate being herded into a certain hull to keep up with others. I would rather choose my own path without having to swallow a whole lot of disadvantage with it.
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Hansi Shimpansi
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Posted - 2011.06.26 19:21:00 -
[101]
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.06.28 16:16:00 -
[102]
Thanks for the support.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
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