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Deros
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Posted - 2005.02.02 16:57:00 -
[1]
Ok, so the changes i have tested so far to the 1400s aren't too bad, they are an improvement on what they were, if they hit the shots are now up from 250-350 to 450 or so. This is good. :)
However what the 1400's need to make them really feasable are a 100k warp in option in the game, optimal with phased plasme with a couple of tracking computers is ~45k, that is fine, ok, so you warp in @ 60km from an object or bookmark, by the time that you have targeted anything, they are already well under your optimal, and even with a MWD, which you cant run forever you wont outrun ships permanently.
Phased plasma is -25% range, +40% range gives approx a 100k optimal, which is pretty much useless at the current ranges.
The solution as i see it is more warp in distances, 60km helped, but further is needed imo.
Deros
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Hera III
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Posted - 2005.02.02 17:12:00 -
[2]
Hear Hear 
First and Former North American Director of <FROG MORTON IND.> |

Lord Anubis
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Posted - 2005.02.02 17:48:00 -
[3]
2005.02.02 17:20:11 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes Ammatar Navy Maller, wrecking for 1900.4 damage.
there a lot better plus u use them right u wont miss this was done at 60K range
i can hit cruiser at 25k with no real probs
You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it
wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia |

Hoolk
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Posted - 2005.02.02 18:02:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Lord Anubis 2005.02.02 17:20:11 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes Ammatar Navy Maller, wrecking for 1900.4 damage.
there a lot better plus u use them right u wont miss this was done at 60K range
i can hit cruiser at 25k with no real probs
Guess thats a mission ship moving straight towards you?
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Lord Anubis
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Posted - 2005.02.02 18:04:00 -
[5]
as i said before still think we need better tracking or at least an opt range incress so our peak ant at a short range
You cant beat Death But you can make the bastard work hard for it
wtb Jerek Zuomi's Insignia |

Lizanne
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Posted - 2005.02.02 18:50:00 -
[6]
The problem with 100km warp is that "ennemies" jsute have to move at 101km then warp at 20km from where you are... 
Well! Jack-of-all-trade means less specialized... So fit different ammos in your 1400mm to suit possible cruiser attacks. You'll do less concentrated damage but you'll be able to attack from a wide variety of ranges.
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Deros
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Posted - 2005.02.02 18:54:00 -
[7]
untrue, you cant warp unless you are 150k+ away from an object, so if they move away, u warp to them, and there has to be something around you for them to warp to.
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.02.02 19:31:00 -
[8]
Yes, we need a 100km warp-in to help with all long range setups. An increase in ammo capacity wouldn't hurt.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.02.02 19:35:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Hakera on 02/02/2005 20:00:17
post dps figures, one off wrecking shots dont tell you much except the upper limit which of course will be on average 10% higher than pre-patch.
And yes to fill their niche role as long range snipers you need longer warp ins or bm's until they are introduced, however dont rule out a 1200mm loadout and tank and 60-70k (beyong pulse range) its a very nice setup with only need for 1 rcu on the proper tanks while dishing some decent dmg now.
Also the boost is much more noticable on the small & med turrets where tracking was less of a problem so I would say polish your wolf/jaguar/claw/stiletto/muninn etc of first and play with that, the difference is much more apparant.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |

lollerskates
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Posted - 2005.02.02 19:37:00 -
[10]
warp to @ 100 option sounds good...
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Damien Vox
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Posted - 2005.02.02 19:50:00 -
[11]
My 720's and 280's are much better now. Haven't tested 1400's since I've never used them before. I get constant 200+ hits on out of my 720's now.
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.02.02 19:57:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Grimpak on 02/02/2005 20:14:54 *imagines how powerfull his T2 280s are in his jag now*
....realy need to test that
EDIT: and yes... 80km and 100km warp to option plz... -------------------
Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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Vicker Lahn'se
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Posted - 2005.02.03 01:45:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lizanne The problem with 100km warp is that "ennemies" jsute have to move at 101km then warp at 20km from where you are... 
Well! Jack-of-all-trade means less specialized... So fit different ammos in your 1400mm to suit possible cruiser attacks. You'll do less concentrated damage but you'll be able to attack from a wide variety of ranges.
Your warp drive cannot lock on to ships that aren't in your gang.
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Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2005.02.03 02:17:00 -
[14]
definitely need the 100km warp in option. Gonna need it anyway when the dreadnaughts and XL turrets come in anyway.
Once they do a little drop down menu for 15, 20,40,60,80,100km, CCP would never have to mess with it again.
It's too sensible of a solution. Guess that means it will take about 6 months to implement, given the known track record.

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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.02.03 03:29:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Hakera wolf/jaguar/claw/stiletto/muninn etc of first and play with that, the difference is much more apparant.
Yeah, I noticed that 280s are pretty damn nice now on a rifter. Should be able to one-shot most frigates in a wolf now.
Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Daakkon
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Posted - 2005.02.03 03:52:00 -
[16]
they should give a 100km warp-in for those specific guns fitted
www.dark-cartel.com |

Deros
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Posted - 2005.02.03 17:16:00 -
[17]
now that would be interesting, 425mm Hybrids and 1400mm getting an extra option for long range.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.02.04 11:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lord Anubis as i said before still think we need better tracking or at least an opt range incress so our peak ant at a short range
I assume you mean the DOT peak as in Hammer's graphs? And what you'd like is to shift the peak to the right. The trouble is, under the current mechanics, increasing optimal won't do that - it will produce a damage plateau, as seen (and widely moaned about) on the megapulse.
Originally by: Deros now that would be interesting, 425mm Hybrids and 1400mm getting an extra option for long range.
The question is, would you put it on the gun, or the ships supposed to be using them? Cause if it's on the gun, I can see a lot of other setups incorporating a single 1400mm gun just to get the extra warp-in options - especially snipocs.
The big problem with the current combat system and shifting range peaks like that is that tracking and fall-off seem to have different practical effects. Fall-off effects are fixed, easily modelled and fairly easy to tweak. It is a long-range-limiting device that has no effect at closer ranges. Tracking, on the other hand has highly variable effects, and suffers from "effect drift". It's a short-range-limiting effect, but often ends up noticably supressing even long-range effects
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Deros
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Posted - 2005.02.04 14:34:00 -
[19]
i guess that may be true, but i suppose if the bonus was added to the ship then people would complain that their ship only has 2 bonuses, whereas those given it would appear to have 3.
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Muad 'dib
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Posted - 2005.02.04 15:14:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Muad 'dib on 04/02/2005 15:16:20 Edited by: Muad 'dib on 04/02/2005 15:14:52 y not give ship classes different warp in ranges? Does a frig really need to warp in @ 60km, when it can warp out in a few seconds??
hows about. . . .
Frigs__________:15 30 Destroyers_____:15 30 45 AF_____________:15 30 45 60 Cruisers________:15 30 45 60 HAC___________:15 30 45 60 75 BattleCruisers__:15 30 45 60 75 BattleShips____:15 30 45 60 75 90
well something like that anyway 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 /|\. '/\' The Wild West Made Me Quicker On The DRAW Than You |

Matthew
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Posted - 2005.02.04 15:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Deros i guess that may be true, but i suppose if the bonus was added to the ship then people would complain that their ship only has 2 bonuses, whereas those given it would appear to have 3.
Yeah, even if the 3 bonuses on the one ship only add up to be as useful as the 2 on the other ship. The number of bonuses isn't really as important as the overall benefit of them.
Though personally, I'd like the extra warp-in distances to be possible on any ship - I'm not sure of any reason why they shouldn't be - they'd be completely usless for most other ships anyway...just like "warp at 20km" is for 1400mm users.
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Rex Martell
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Posted - 2005.02.04 16:15:00 -
[22]
Doesn't make a lot of sense to have long range sniper Set-ups and not a matching warp option.
15 20 40 60 80 100 for all ships sounds good, There are some nice cruiser class snipers out there as well. "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his" |

voidvim
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Posted - 2005.02.04 16:37:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Muad 'dib
hows about. . . .
Frigs__________:15 30 Destroyers_____:15 30 45 AF_____________:15 30 45 60 Cruisers________:15 30 45 60 HAC___________:15 30 45 60 75 BattleCruisers__:15 30 45 60 75 BattleShips____:15 30 45 60 75 90
well something like that anyway 
this is not a bad idea
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Alowishus
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Posted - 2005.02.04 16:46:00 -
[24]
They should have a skill that adds predetermined warp in ranges. Level one you get 70km, lvl2 = 80km, lvl3 = 90km, lvl4 = 100km, lvl5 = 110km. Call it "Advanced Warpdrive Operation" and make it require Large Hybrid/Projectile level 5.
As a side note, maybe you have a skill that does the oposite and gives you 10km, 7.5km, 5km, 2.5km and 1km. Call that one "Precision Warping".
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |

Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.04 16:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Alowishus They should have a skill that adds predetermined warp in ranges. Level one you get 70km, lvl2 = 80km, lvl3 = 90km, lvl4 = 100km, lvl5 = 110km. Call it "Advanced Warpdrive Operation" and make it require Large Hybrid/Projectile level 5.
As a side note, maybe you have a skill that does the oposite and gives you 10km, 7.5km, 5km, 2.5km and 1km. Call that one "Precision Warping".
What about Tachyons? And Beam lasers in general for that matter. Like it or not, theyre longrange guns.
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Alowishus
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Posted - 2005.02.04 16:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Marnix
Originally by: Alowishus They should have a skill that adds predetermined warp in ranges. Level one you get 70km, lvl2 = 80km, lvl3 = 90km, lvl4 = 100km, lvl5 = 110km. Call it "Advanced Warpdrive Operation" and make it require Large Hybrid/Projectile level 5.
As a side note, maybe you have a skill that does the oposite and gives you 10km, 7.5km, 5km, 2.5km and 1km. Call that one "Precision Warping".
What about Tachyons? And Beam lasers in general for that matter. Like it or not, theyre longrange guns.
Ok, how about this: It requires Large Rail/Arty/Beam SPECIALIZATION Level 1.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |

BigJim Beef
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Posted - 2005.02.04 18:54:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Alowishus
Originally by: Marnix
Originally by: Alowishus They should have a skill that adds predetermined warp in ranges. Level one you get 70km, lvl2 = 80km, lvl3 = 90km, lvl4 = 100km, lvl5 = 110km. Call it "Advanced Warpdrive Operation" and make it require Large Hybrid/Projectile level 5.
As a side note, maybe you have a skill that does the oposite and gives you 10km, 7.5km, 5km, 2.5km and 1km. Call that one "Precision Warping".
What about Tachyons? And Beam lasers in general for that matter. Like it or not, theyre longrange guns.
Ok, how about this: It requires Large Rail/Arty/Beam SPECIALIZATION Level 1.
Or maybe something like warp drive op 4 and long range targetting 4?
As for Precision warping, warp drive op 4 and one of the nav skills at 4 maybe?
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Simon Greed
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Posted - 2005.02.04 19:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Alowishus They should have a skill that adds predetermined warp in ranges. Level one you get 70km, lvl2 = 80km, lvl3 = 90km, lvl4 = 100km, lvl5 = 110km. Call it "Advanced Warpdrive Operation" and make it require Large Hybrid/Projectile level 5.
Best idea ever! It would indeed increase the enjoyment for Minmatars, as well as other races. It would also add more tactics to PvP as well as PvE.
Originally by: Alowishus As a side note, maybe you have a skill that does the oposite and gives you 10km, 7.5km, 5km, 2.5km and 1km. Call that one "Precision Warping".
Also a good idea, but I fear that it doesn't go along with current insta-jumping problem i hear CCP is working on...
/Simon Greed
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.04 19:54:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Alowishus
Ok, how about this: It requires Large Rail/Arty/Beam SPECIALIZATION Level 1.
Sounds good. Sounds awesome, actually.
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Ugleb
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Posted - 2005.02.07 01:26:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Alowishus They should have a skill that adds predetermined warp in ranges. Level one you get 70km, lvl2 = 80km, lvl3 = 90km, lvl4 = 100km, lvl5 = 110km. Call it "Advanced Warpdrive Operation" and make it require Large Hybrid/Projectile level 5.
As a side note, maybe you have a skill that does the oposite and gives you 10km, 7.5km, 5km, 2.5km and 1km. Call that one "Precision Warping".
I like the advanced warpdrive operation skill alot. Fire support/artillery is designed to be used at long range, so the option to star at long ranfe should exist. Linking it to skills also gives older characters room to refine their specialisation.
Precision warping would lead make it impossible the blockade stations/gates I think, which makes it very hard to catch someone who doesnt want to be caught. If you cant trap an oppoenent its going to make wars very frustrating to fight, as your opponent wont fight at all unless he thinks he has you outgunned. It's hard enough as it is now with bookmarked insta jumps.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.02.07 11:47:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Ugleb Precision warping would lead make it impossible the blockade stations/gates I think, which makes it very hard to catch someone who doesnt want to be caught. If you cant trap an oppoenent its going to make wars very frustrating to fight, as your opponent wont fight at all unless he thinks he has you outgunned. It's hard enough as it is now with bookmarked insta jumps.
Well, as you say, anyone that really wants to get past a blockade will probably have or get an insta to do it anyway. And there's always the good old warp-bubble to catch people out with.....would actually mean an effective blockade would actually have to be organised as a blockade, rather than as an anrgy mob.
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Deros
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Posted - 2005.02.07 14:30:00 -
[32]
to be honest i think all these ideas are great, but i would rather be given a 100km warp in option and let them think the rest over later.
Deros
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Incub
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Posted - 2005.02.07 15:03:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Incub on 07/02/2005 15:03:44 the warp options are fine, yes its a ***** to get a 100km out, but if you get a mate to set you up there then you're fine. remember, if you can get out there by simply warping in at 100km, so can your enemy...
250's are definitely more versatile, but All the cool kids are using 280's. |

Orb Lati
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Posted - 2005.02.07 23:53:00 -
[34]
Yes we ned larger warp in ranges. but i also feel that 100km is too short as well.
I would suggest that the add more ranges up to a max of 200km.
My resoning is this. If you restrict warp in ranges to only 100km max then you always know that any ship setup for long range is always going to enter combat at 100km, so all the enemy needs to do is have a short range blaster ship at that point for an easy kill (CPU and Grid requirements for long range guns effectly kill any tanking ability). Note that most gates are on the edge of a system and tend to have all the celestral objects in one general direction.
However if you increase warp in ranges well beyond any possible long range setups you introduce a tactical element to wapring into combat. Players can attempt to anticipate the location of thier targets and warp in at their optiumal and due to the lower DOT of a long range setup any short range blaster ships will usually have the opertunity to warp out then back and land on top of thier opponet.
Also i would want CCP the bring back the warp in option to ships beyond 150km, as if somebody in a long range setup warps in to far then they themselves are at risk asa a blaster ship might be able to warp up to them.
Also why can we not have options for distance when we warp to gang member (or any object beyond 150km)
"We Worship Strength, because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |

Mr Wales
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Posted - 2005.02.08 03:08:00 -
[35]
I would say 200km is way too big. 100km would be awesome. With the new Cerberus now in game it makes sense that CCP push the warp in point back. I say this because without any mods this ships default locking range is just over 100km without any mods.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.02.08 13:06:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Orb Lati Also i would want CCP the bring back the warp in option to ships beyond 150km, as if somebody in a long range setup warps in to far then they themselves are at risk asa a blaster ship might be able to warp up to them.
That would cause a lot of problems, and make for some very silly tactics. Lets take an example of the long-range guy starting 100km away from the blaster ship. If the blaster ship wants to attack, he has to close the 100km gap on normal drive. If we do as you suggest, he gets another option - fly away from the long-range guy till he gets to 150km, then warp-to at 15km and sidle up to optimum range. At most this requires the covering of 50+15 = 65km. That's 35km worth of vulnerable travel time saved. In terms of time-to-close, there would be no point ever operating beyond a 75km range, and uber 120km+ snipers would be completely messed up. It would be completely counter-productive to do this and increase warp-in ranges at the same time...the increased warp-in ranges would enlarge the battlefield, but allowing warping to hostile ships would mean only a very small portion of this battlefield was ever used.
Originally by: Mr Wales I would say 200km is way too big. 100km would be awesome. With the new Cerberus now in game it makes sense that CCP push the warp in point back. I say this because without any mods this ships default locking range is just over 100km without any mods.
Mmm, we could extend that logic further, and maybe say the maximum warp-in option you can have in a given ship is governed by your locking range? Could have the in-game story argument that further out, your sensors can't lock the gravitational signature, so can't dump you out of warp properly.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.02.08 13:11:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Matthew
That would cause a lot of problems, and make for some very silly tactics. Lets take an example of the long-range guy starting 100km away from the blaster ship. If the blaster ship wants to attack, he has to close the 100km gap on normal drive. If we do as you suggest, he gets another option - fly away from the long-range guy till he gets to 150km, then warp-to at 15km and sidle up to optimum range. At most this requires the covering of 50+15 = 65km. That's 35km worth of vulnerable travel time saved. In terms of time-to-close, there would be no point ever operating beyond a 75km range, and uber 120km+ snipers would be completely messed up. It would be completely counter-productive to do this and increase warp-in ranges at the same time...the increased warp-in ranges would enlarge the battlefield, but allowing warping to hostile ships would mean only a very small portion of this battlefield was ever used.
You could argue also, that a long range ship has to travel a looooong distance to become effective should a short range ship warp in at 15km.
So the short range ships have effective ranges to gank long range ships, but not visa versa? There is always the option to warp out, for both sides, although admitdely this is harder when warping in at 15km cos your in warp scramble range.
I belive the warp in ranges should be modified, to make it fair for both long and short range setups. -
"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally." - Unknown Warrior
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.02.08 13:42:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino You could argue also, that a long range ship has to travel a looooong distance to become effective should a short range ship warp in at 15km.
So the short range ships have effective ranges to gank long range ships, but not visa versa? There is always the option to warp out, for both sides, although admitdely this is harder when warping in at 15km cos your in warp scramble range.
I belive the warp in ranges should be modified, to make it fair for both long and short range setups.
I was arguing in favour of long-range warp-in options. What I was arguing against was giving people the ability to warp-to a ship that was more than 150km away from them, simply because the ability would make arriving at the longer warp-in ranges pointless, as the enemy could then use warp-to to close the gap too fast. If we keep this as it is now (i.e. not possible to warp-to hostile ships), then both would have good warp-in options.
Of course, the other option would be to allow you to warp out to a longer range if you're too close, as well as to a shorter range if you're too far - say, a "Warp 150km away from target" option. So that way the long-range setups would have a tactical warp option too. Of course, then battles would degenerate into endless warping for position, and tackling intys would become essential to getting any sort of proper combat at all. So probably best to leave the warp-to-ship feature as is, and just give the long-range ships some extra range options.
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Sally
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Posted - 2005.02.08 15:34:00 -
[39]
This is easy: make minimal warp range 200km. Then you can safely give options to warp up to 120 km range. Btw, that idea with sensor range = max warp range is good. Of course, 60 km should still be the minimum regardless of sensor ranges. -- Stories: #1 --
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Arud
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Posted - 2005.02.08 16:05:00 -
[40]
Originally by: voidvim
Originally by: Muad 'dib
hows about. . . .
Frigs__________:15 30 Destroyers_____:15 30 45 AF_____________:15 30 45 60 Cruisers________:15 30 45 60 HAC___________:15 30 45 60 75 BattleCruisers__:15 30 45 60 75 BattleShips____:15 30 45 60 75 90
well something like that anyway 
this is not a bad idea
a very nice idea, I like it, I would like to extend it so that battleships can max out at 100km instead of 90km the idea behind this is very nice, devs please take notice
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Vigilant
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Posted - 2005.02.08 16:09:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Arud
Originally by: voidvim
Originally by: Muad 'dib
hows about. . . .
Frigs__________:15 30 Destroyers_____:15 30 45 AF_____________:15 30 45 60 Cruisers________:15 30 45 60 HAC___________:15 30 45 60 75 BattleCruisers__:15 30 45 60 75 BattleShips____:15 30 45 60 75 90
well something like that anyway 
this is not a bad idea
a very nice idea, I like it, I would like to extend it so that battleships can max out at 100km instead of 90km the idea behind this is very nice, devs please take notice
My Only issue with these range ideas...Is sometimes in Frig ya want to warp in at 60 km just to Scan Belts in Low Sec. Sometimes you warp in at 15 or 30 km and some big meany is already there Eeek....OUCH !!!
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ByBy Baby
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Posted - 2005.02.09 11:32:00 -
[42]
So all this about warp in? I thought this thread where about projectiles and the changes. I would love to have 100km + range of warp in. And with that sad. Have any one tried the large projectiles and found them use full after the patch. I have and I would like to know if itÆs just me or if the 1400, 1200 are still paper weight.
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Deros
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Posted - 2005.02.11 02:58:00 -
[43]
the 1200 and 1400 are useful, both before and after the patch, since the patch they do nearer if not the damage that they should, but even with 3 tracking mods (mid slot), or low slot, or a combination of the two they do not hit with enough reliability without being a fair way off your target. in this case say that we are using phased plasma, this would give an optimal approx 44-50k, however the guns will not hit anything including a cruiser with any degree of reliability until you are as much as 55-60k away.
the problem that i have found is that you cannot maintain this distance for any great length of time with a mwd or AB.
this is what i have found, and i still have not had the chance to test out close range guns, however the tempest especially is imo designed to be an artillary platform, out of the range of most ships in the battle, but able to deal a large amount of damage, from which its design stops it having the tanking ability of say a raven.
so, yes for the tempest to have a real role in a battle, or in eve, it either needs projectiles (long range) to have a tracking increase ( which i cant see happening ) or the possibility to actually come in at a long range and not have the targets at 20k by the time you have locked them. the example i used is -25% ammo, carbonised lead gives an optimal of ~100k, at the moment you cant effectivly get anywhere near this range unless you are in a planned battle.
Deros
:( Deros
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ByBy Baby
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Posted - 2005.02.11 09:33:00 -
[44]
If you starting to hit well at 55-60 with the next closest ammunition (emp is the closest one with -50% range) and you have this silly locking range minmatar ships have you really need to fill up all your mid with sensorboster and tracking computers II to hit something. And that laves you with the possibility to armor tank. But you really need 3-4 gyros, to make the damage needed to take out a target. And that leaves you with ether 2-3 low slots, witch donÆt make a good tank at all. (And donÆt forget the fitting req)
So we do have a problem here. Me and a lot of mini pilotÆs have been patients and waited 6 moths for a fix and the only thing we got is small boosts that donÆt cut it. I know there have been talks about more small ôtweaksö but CCP must let us know what they are thinking. What is there next tweak or is it going to be one? The lack of response is just make us more frustrated, and this is taking the fun out of the game.
I have been with this game for more than 1 year and I have seen more and more of the older players that I started with stop playing for this reason. So canÆt you CCP or any one who has the information and/or can push the dev to just make a post with this info. We, the player base really need to know whatÆs going on.
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