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Nadea Semah	Posted - 2011.03.16 17:24:00 - [91] Originally by: Echo Mae I killed a spider today, and felt no remorse. Does that mean I am evil? spiders are evil, that means you are good! ROFL IN short, I do thank you for all your responses folk, they are very much appreciated :) The reference to chess, monopoly, FPS, so forth makes since, And I see how you apply it to eve.. As previously mentioned by others though, we are a sandbox, which more closely represents real life? then a chess board?? (being that you can be what you want to be if you apply yourself, etc etc) where as chess is fairly straight forward. kill king, win.
Samir Duran Xadi	Posted - 2011.03.16 17:34:00 - [92] its a game who cares if human beings are behind each pilot and destroyed assets take hours of hard real time work. its an internet game after all and every little anonymous nerd can grief with no consequences.
Karl Planck Walt Disney Productions	Posted - 2011.03.16 17:42:00 - [93] Tza, I don't think you get it. They are making fun of you for trying to make the comparison in the first place. Taking a piece in chess is not just allowed, its built into the game on purpose. Stealing in EVE is not just allowed, its built into the game on purpose. Omega, I really hope that English isn't your first language. This was absolutely terrible to read. I felt obligated to read it because it was a "response" to my post, but dude, cmon! I'm going to try and break this down, we'll see how it goes. Originally by: Omega Sunset Paragraph 1: People are connected to this game because they pay real money to play it. P2: its more than just a game because we spend money on it and players interact with each other P3: Ethical issues are complicated. Anarchy would make some people show their true colors. P4: A complex moral system exists in a lawless environment and there is no clear reason to act for the betterment of the group or like an ahole. P5: This game draws aholes in and I don't like it. P6: People should be nice to each other (IRL) That is about the best i can do to understand what you posted. Most of this has already been stated. Your inclusion of RMT already goes along the lines that others have used that involve I spend my money on this so it means something when I lose my a**. Other than that this post has nothing new in it. Thank u for trolling me ------------------------------------------------- Don't debate with morons. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2011.03.16 17:47:00 - [94] Originally by: Samir Duran Xadi its a game who cares if human beings are behind each pilot and destroyed assets take hours of hard real time work. its an internet game after all and every little anonymous nerd can grief with no consequences. I care. Simply because I know how I feel when hours of my own "work" goes down the drain. Just because it's an internet game that enables you to grief, does that mean you should grief? Does griefing somebody give you pleasure? I know many folks that play eve argue that yes, it certainly does give them pleasure. That doesn't work for everyone though, I guess. What is true, I think, is that eve would be dull if everyone was polite and respectful, so the game needs folks willing and ready to set aside moral qualms.
Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous Scum Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.16 17:54:00 - [95] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: A pair of false dichotomies is twice as logically invalid as a single false dichotomy. If that's all you've got to defend your religious viewpoint, I don't know why Pascal wager would be false. Pascal's wager is trivial to disprove. I will show you: God wont let you in to heaven unless you send me a million ISK. The cost to you is negligible; the reward infinite. Therefore you should send me a million ISK. waits for wallet blinky No ISK? Pascal's wager is the rhetorical equivalent of sneaking a divide-by-zero into the equation. You can apply it to anything, and still get the same answer. Whether it's prayer to the christian God, Allah, Buddha, merciful Poseidon, or just sending poor Malcy a mill or two. It also fails to take into account that most Gods are jealous, so praying to the wrong one can have strong negative consequences... Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Karl Planck Walt Disney Productions	Posted - 2011.03.16 17:55:00 - [96] Originally by: Nadea Semah As previously mentioned by others though, we are a sandbox, which more closely represents real life? then a chess board?? (being that you can be what you want to be if you apply yourself, etc etc) where as chess is fairly straight forward. kill king, win. The way you worded this is a bit confusing. Are you asking that real life is more closely related to eve than playing chess? If not, i will edit, but if so then the answer is an astounding NO. Playing a game (eve is a game after all) is much more close to playing another game than it is living your life. Even though the game is designed so that you have a large degree of freedom, that freedom is within the context of a game. You CAN bring a large portion of yourself into the game, but its not required and a large number of people don't. Thus, to assume that everyone is "as themselves" as you are is false assumption. Again, I would point to my earlier post on the subject and challenge you to think of how much would you really trust that people are being themselves in the game. ------------------------------------------------- Don't debate with morons. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Riedle Minmatar Paradox Collective Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.03.16 17:56:00 - [97] Originally by: Omega Sunset Edited by: Omega Sunset on 16/03/2011 17:15:10 Originally by: Karl Planck This is completely different. Well it's just one aspect of the bridge between the two, irl vs. game fantasy. There is more to the question of the OP, more underneath, in that does it not already for some, to some degree, bleed into irl motivation via irl monetary gain. The way the question was put is as if there is no question to it already being present, as though it was not present or in some way didn't qualify. The old saying comes to mind "it's just a game", well that being true if you removed the human element, then sure it's just a game and all it could be as being void of you and I. But add money and power, or at least the illusion of power, just the power to screw with someone, then the human element is fully present just the same as some derive fun or pleasure from enacting such things. And money as already mentioned, and people often put money at the top of their list anyway as something that can cause recognizable irritation when abusers take advantage of a system. We all know it effects us, easy to recognize I mean, from our irl vantage point. Heart issues are less understandable, something not easily quantified, and not easily factored into that bridge without a universally definitive yardstick to measure by.. apart from consciousness sake which for most has some bearing to a degree. Of course we can always negate that over time, by our own understanding, by training it within ourselves to be so, or void of. Then comes the final stroke, what do we do when irl becomes less restrictive, or not restrictive at all, by one means or another, and not just for a knowingly short measure of time. I think for the most part, we really can't answer that question. Yet some know quite well where they would stand in such a situation. My personal stance is however, I don't really want to live in a dystopian society. Not that we have come anywhere close to utopia. I think most would choose utopia over dystopia, or to some degree of utopia as we may have it now. But if given no choice in that matter, and usually that is how it works out, to what measure do we participate in the activities of a society that has fallen into any sort of lawlessness? And do we choose to recognize that what may once have been "wrong", is still "wrong". If now a society is in the majority opinion that what once was "wrong" is no longer the case, does that make it right? And if so, do we participate? It's a moral dilemma. And before someone reads between the lines and says that I blame the game in some way, not at all. It's less about a game doing or training for harm, as it is an inevitable environment that draws people that already seek to do harm, that are already fully capable and versed in it's execution. And I'm not saying all people, but just that there is a dark fantasy side that is present that people wish to enact the things they presently resist or in some cases currently do to some degree. So you could possibly find that people that chase after RMT (as an example mentioned) may have already done similar things irl already. Yet some that have not and will not but do in-game. My personal practice is to just not do it. Not flawless though (not speaking of RMT, never done that), but that is the human condition. I can only say I wont do it today, be it in-game or irl. So today I won't, and I'll not worry about the past and not worry about tomorrow. That is about as good as we can do. I think that if we as a race, the human race, practiced that and with a measure of compassion for one another, we may survive another day as a human race. Yet, don't tread on me ;) Holy crap batman.. What the F is this? I mean.. o.0
Plocsk	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:02:00 - [98] Originally by: Karl Planck Tza, I don't think you get it. They are making fun of you for trying to make the comparison in the first place. Taking a piece in chess is not just allowed, its built into the game on purpose. Stealing in EVE is not just allowed, its built into the game on purpose. In chess, do you take a piece because it is part of the game, or to upset your opponent? In EVE, do you kill a ship because it is part of the game, or to make your victim cry? Inb4 chess griefers! But seriously, I know loads of people who play only to harvest delicious tears.
Tza Omi	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:03:00 - [99] Eve is not just a wargame, Eve is a community with very few rules excluding very few activities. Its not that stealing is built into the game but that it is not excluded. Because of its lack of rules and consequences it allows ppl in the community to interact as their spirit dictates, and I'm saying the griefer scammer spirit is an evil one. Case closed.
Karl Planck Walt Disney Productions	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:06:00 - [100] i know loads of chess players that have gotten bored with the game by easy opponents and find ways to beat them for tears (winning a game with only pawns left etc.). So yea, all depends on how you want to play the game. And by the way, your question is a bit misleading. The game mechanic isn't their to extract tears (like taking a piece or blowing up a ship) its the way that its utilized. ------------------------------------------------- Don't debate with morons. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:09:00 - [101] Edited by: Cearain on 16/03/2011 18:08:55 This is an interesting question. It gets gray as to what is "in game" and what is out of game. Even then its unclear where the line is drawn. I do think there is a line btw. I think allot of people are quick to claim its pretty much all "in game" and its immoral. They just role play a scammer in the game etc. Then of course they sell that character in the character bazaar and start another character to do what? Yep ôrole playö another scammer. They don't want to admit that what they do is actually not part of ôrole playö in a game and indeed they are just lying for their own personal gain (not having to pay real dollars for a monthly subscription) IÆm not saying shooting someoneÆs ship or being a pirate in the game is unethical. But lying to someone in your ôrealö voice over vent in order to get enough isk to save 15 dollars for your next month of play might be. I agree there is a ôrole play defenseö (that is the claim ôits just a gameö) to this but I really think that stretched way too far in many cases. Here is a thread where I already discussed this fairly in depth with some other players. On page six of the thread we started talking about ethics in eve. I think by the end of the thread most people could see there was a bit more to it- at least they started to stop answering questions that challenged their views. http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=36255&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75 -Cearain Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906
Baaldor Igneus Auctorita Gentlemen's Agreement	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:09:00 - [102] Justifying self worth through a video game. Priceless.
Karl Planck Walt Disney Productions	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:11:00 - [103] Originally by: Tza Omi Eve is not just a wargame, Eve is a community with very few rules excluding very few activities. Its not that stealing is built into the game but that it is not excluded. Because of its lack of rules and consequences it allows ppl in the community to interact as their spirit dictates, and I'm saying the griefer scammer spirit is an evil one. Case closed. Wait a freaking second there champ. You do know that this game, this UNIVERSE, was created. Built piece by piece by lines of code, intential crafted and put together by a team of creative individuals. This is NOT a universe that was discovered and modified so that we could participate in it. Trade windows: risky quick transactions Margin trading: has a good side but also an "evil" side, dev supported POS theft: because it is risky to put things in a CHA, but you have to in the absence of station (built in risk based on trust) there is plenty of other things BUILT INTO THIS GAME by the dev's so that you have the FREEDOM to play it how you would like and punish you for not knowing all of the rules. ------------------------------------------------- Don't debate with morons. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:21:00 - [104] Originally by: Plocsk In chess, do you take a piece because it is part of the game, or to upset your opponent? Yes. Originally by: Tza Omi Eve is not just a wargame, Eve is a community with very few rules excluding very few activities. Its not that stealing is built into the game but that it is not excluded. Because of its lack of rules and consequences it allows ppl in the community to interact as their spirit dictates Except, of course, that it is built into the game. On purpose. It does have rules and consequences. They were also built in. On purpose. So no, it's not because of a lack of those or any kind of oversight. It's by design. Case blown wide open.
Ozmodan Minmatar Massively Mob Massively Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:24:00 - [105] The problem with Eve is, most players can't disassociate a MMO from playing an FPS. Playing a MMO requires an entirely different mindset as things are not ethereal as in a FPS. The ones who tell you it is just a game are the ones who just don't get it. All you have to do is look at the level of cheating that goes on in these games to understand the mentality that many approach this game. How anyone can cheat at anything and think it is ok is amazing, yet even in Eve we see illegal bots everywhere. There are few honorable players in this game, best to assume your opposition is not.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:25:00 - [106] In EvE, all players are immortal. How do you do something evil to an immortal? You can't kill them, and they have the resources and time to replace absolutely anything you can take from them. You cant literally **** in eve, so what evil can you do?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:28:00 - [107] Originally by: Ozmodan The problem with Eve is, most players can't disassociate a MMO from playing an FPS. Playing a MMO requires an entirely different mindset as things are not ethereal as in a FPS. The ones who tell you it is just a game are the ones who just don't get it. àor the other way around. Quote: All you have to do is look at the level of cheating that goes on in these games to understand the mentality that many approach this game. Are you talking about FPSes or MMO:s? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Baaldor Igneus Auctorita Gentlemen's Agreement	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:29:00 - [108] Originally by: Ozmodan The problem with Eve is, most players can't disassociate a MMO from playing an FPS. Playing a MMO requires an entirely different mindset as things are not ethereal as in a FPS. The ones who tell you it is just a game are the ones who just don't get it. All you have to do is look at the level of cheating that goes on in these games to understand the mentality that many approach this game. How anyone can cheat at anything and think it is ok is amazing, yet even in Eve we see illegal bots everywhere. There are few honorable players in this game, best to assume your opposition is not. That is utter crap.
Omega Sunset Caldari Roughnecks	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:32:00 - [109] Originally by: Karl Planck Thank u for trolling me Actually my post was thoughtful, was not an attack against you... but that's EVE forums for you I guess. You are welcome, now come over here so I can hit you with my troll club Originally by: Riedle Holy crap batman.. What the F is this? I mean.. o.0 Try reading this: Originally by: Nadea Semah and what is the basis for your answer? Didn't write it for you. Don't expect you to understand and I pointed out it's not something easy to understand. If you don't already know about what I said, then you won't catch it from my minimalistic post. You'll need to hit the books to begin to grasp it. Life experience helps too. Maybe Batman will know? I'd start with Homer though, but only for a start. Pilot's Journal
Karl Planck Walt Disney Productions	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:42:00 - [110] Edited by: Karl Planck on 16/03/2011 18:42:50 Omega, not even joking man. I won't even say anything about the content of your posts, assuming I misunderstood you. But you HAVE to realize that your extremely long post was hardly even English. Really, it made no sense (not the content, the way you stated it). If you were trying to be "minimalistic" (post that long says no) then you really cut the legs out from under your argument by not being clear enough. And you can be as arrogant as you want with comments like "Don't expect you to understand" (by the way, this is the kind of bad English I am talking about), but unless you actually make an effort to make that readable your just making yourself look like and a**hat. ------------------------------------------------- Don't debate with morons. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

Ana Vyr	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:44:00 - [111] Chess is a set piece battle in which you are starting out with equal assets. The objective it to defeat the other player through structured rules (and out of game distractions in some cases as well...trying to rattle your opponent). Eve is a virtual life scenario where battles are not equal unless you've made a mistake picking your fights. You don't have to spend three weeks of playing chess to "buy" your rooks for a given game as you might in eve. I can see the comparisons to chess, but I don't think the two scenarios are similar enough to use chess as a way of explaining the motivations of people who play eve. There's more at stake in eve...which in many ways makes it more compelling a game.
Awesome Possum Original Sin. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:46:00 - [112] just pointing out that ethics/morality are all based on opinions and assumptions and that there's no such thing as a universal morality. that is all. ♥
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:48:00 - [113] Originally by: Ana Vyr Chess is a set piece battle in which you are starting out with equal assets. The objective it to defeat the other player through structured rules (and out of game distractions in some cases as well...trying to rattle your opponent). EVE is a PvP-centric game where you start out with equal assets. The objective is toà wellà do pretty much anything you like, which (considering that it's a PvP-centric game) will entail defeating the other player(s) through structured rules. The inequality you talk about is the same inequality as when a pawn is up against a queen (and you can spend part of the session to "buy" new queens). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:53:00 - [114] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Plocsk In chess, do you take a piece because it is part of the game, or to upset your opponent? Yes. If your intent is to upset a player (in real life) then you are doing it to provoke grief. And that makes you just as disfunctional as someone that takes the game too seriously, if not more. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Karl Planck Walt Disney Productions	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:55:00 - [115] Edited by: Karl Planck on 16/03/2011 18:56:49 Originally by: Ana Vyr Chess is a set piece battle in which you are starting out with equal assets. The objective it to defeat the other player through structured rules (and out of game distractions in some cases as well...trying to rattle your opponent). Eve is a virtual life scenario where battles are not equal unless you've made a mistake picking your fights. You don't have to spend three weeks of playing chess to "buy" your rooks for a given game as you might in eve. I can see the comparisons to chess, but I don't think the two scenarios are similar enough to use chess as a way of explaining the motivations of people who play eve. There's more at stake in eve...which in many ways makes it more compelling a game. Two things here. The battle analogy isn't a correct. Yes, in chess you start out with the same pieces. In EVE everyone starts out with a rookie ship and builds w/e they want (be that alliances, awesome toys, a pile of bodies in the corp hanger, a contact list brimming with reds). You are correct that they are not the the same, and yes, there is more at stake in eve. However, its certain people like Tza that are attempting to apply arguments holding people to a false standard in EVE. The fact that they are false is obvious in chess where as it is not so clear in EVE due to the complexity of the mechanics. In the scope of dealing with the moral arguments like "The simple fact of the matter is there are no tears in chess, its just a contest of skill and thought," these two games are equivalent (i.e., someone crying over a game of chess is about as stupid as someone crying in eve). Edit* TIPPIA! you beat me to it ------------------------------------------------- Don't debate with morons. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:56:00 - [116] So Tippia, if my objective in EvE is to make the most ISK, am I playing the game wrong? You tend to make it clear in your posts that PvP is the "only" objective in EvE despite numerous ways to play the game that don't involve blowing up ships. Is your position that PvP (ship combat I mean) is the only valid playstyle?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:57:00 - [117] Edited by: Tippia on 16/03/2011 18:59:22 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 If your intent is to upset a player (in real life) then you are doing it to provoke grief. In real life, perhaps. In games, it's quite often used to provoke mistakes. Originally by: Ana Vyr So Tippia, if my objective in EvE is to make the most ISK, am I playing the game wrong? No. What gave you that idea? Quote: You tend to make it clear in your posts that PvP is the "only" objective in EvE Yes. And you provided a good example of it. Quote: despite numerous ways to play the game that don't involve blowing up ships. No. Not despite. Because there are numerous ways that don't involve blowing up ships. All of them involve beating the other players. All of them (okà not all, there are two exceptions) are PvP. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Baaldor Igneus Auctorita Gentlemen's Agreement	Posted - 2011.03.16 19:03:00 - [118] Originally by: Ana Vyr Chess is a set piece battle in which you are starting out with equal assets. The objective it to defeat the other player through structured rules (and out of game distractions in some cases as well...trying to rattle your opponent). Eve is a virtual life scenario where battles are not equal unless you've made a mistake picking your fights. You don't have to spend three weeks of playing chess to "buy" your rooks for a given game as you might in eve. I can see the comparisons to chess, but I don't think the two scenarios are similar enough to use chess as a way of explaining the motivations of people who play eve. There's more at stake in eve...which in many ways makes it more compelling a game. The view you have is what you have emotionally invested in the game. In which makes you a target. You are nothing but pixels. I am allowed to scatter and steal your pixels. It is a game, nothing more and nothing less.
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2011.03.16 19:07:00 - [119] Originally by: Baaldor The view you have is what you have emotionally invested in the game. In which makes you a target. You are nothing but pixels. I am allowed to scatter and steal your pixels. It is a game, nothing more and nothing less. To me, a game in which there is no emotional investment, be that chess or EvE, is not one worth playing at all. Don't you try to win when you game? Don't you invest time and thought into what you do in game? Is your time and thought worthless?
Fredfredbug4 Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.16 19:09:00 - [120] The main fun of games is to be able to do something that you wouldn't usually be able to do in real life. With EVE anything that doesn't violate game rules is possible which is a lot as scamming is even allowed. I stay pretty close to my own morals. I try to bring good to a wretched and cruel world. Right now I am practicing combat in PVE but in the near future I hope to be a pirate and scammer hunter. If I see a carebear under attack I will move in to fight off the pirates and leave before the miner's corp decides to gank me as well.



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