Originally by: Nadea Semah

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For those that (arguments sake) were raised with strong ethical and moral backgrounds- based on religion, or what not..

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Originally by: Mighty Dread

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Right but you can't come to the rescue of another player who is not in your corp/alliance without being penalized and/or Concordokkened.

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Originally by: Alpheias

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didn't find one with popcorn so you get one with strawberries instead!

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Originally by: Arthur Frayn

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Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 17/03/2011 09:26:24

Originally by: Nadea Semah

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For those that (arguments sake) were raised with strong ethical and moral backgrounds- based on religion, or what not..

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I object to the notion that religion can be the source of any kind of ethical framework.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: EglantinFinfleur

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Common sense dictates that anybody with a hint of good will towards his fellow man won't engage in gratuitous ganking or scamming, given the fact that losing ships or isk equals quite a lot of time lost.

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Common Sense? In my experience that's short-hand for "unexamined assuption".

I'll repeat my earlier question: why is it harder to belive that a normally good person can pretend to be an ebil piwate than it is to believe that they can pretend to be an immortal, god-like starship captain?

In other words, why do you think people can't engage in "moral roleplaying"?

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Is it a coincidence that the jerks out to harass choose to be grief players in Eve? I think not. They choose to be so because the game allows them to use it as a tool to bring real life discomfort to others.

To say that good people choose to "role-play" to be an ******* is laughable. There's no such thing as role-playing a jerk. Hell, take these forums as an example. Usually, the hostile loud-mouthed players against anyone that chooses to play differently from them (ie play a carebear) are grief players. Those usually ridiculing and showing e-peens are grief players.

So to answer your question on why is it harder to belive that a normally good person can pretend to be an ebil piwate than it is to believe that they can pretend to be an immortal, god-like starship captain?

Because their lack of ethics roles over and shows even when posting on the forums, where usually there is no role-playing. The way they carry themselves. And you can defend them and pretend that they're pastors and good samaritans in real life. But I'm betting on that they're either lying or restraining themselves due to real life consequences to their actions.

And your comeback a few posts ago that in cricket it's allowed to taunt and grief, I wasn't talking about whether it is allowed and legal on certain games or not. You see, that's not what this is about. It's about questioning whether it is ethically acceptable to do so. In my opinion, no, it isn't. I don't care that in cricket it is ok to spit on the players. To me, it's not what any sport should be about, unless it's a spitting competition, I guess :\.

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Originally by: Maikeruko

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Of course. First though, I'd like to point out that idea of morality is artificial. There is no such thing as morality. Humans are just arrogant enough to believe we know what's "right."

However, my moral compass from real life indeed passes into EVE. I have never and will never engage in PVP. I refuse to deprive another person of an item which, although virtual, cost a living being hours of their life and could possibly emotionally harm them by its loss. This is a game, but it's a damn important one to a lot of people. If you take actions that could upset people and you don't care, you're a jerk.

Eve is an incredibly cutthroat game. I'm making my home solar system slightly more livable by not being a total asshat.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Maikeruko

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Of course. First though, I'd like to point out that idea of morality is artificial. There is no such thing as morality. Humans are just arrogant enough to believe we know what's "right."

However, my moral compass from real life indeed passes into EVE. I have never and will never engage in PVP. I refuse to deprive another person of an item which, although virtual, cost a living being hours of their life and could possibly emotionally harm them by its loss. This is a game, but it's a damn important one to a lot of people. If you take actions that could upset people and you don't care, you're a jerk.

Eve is an incredibly cutthroat game. I'm making my home solar system slightly more livable by not being a total asshat.

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What would you say to an American Football player who refused to tackle an opposing player because he was opposed to violence in pursuit of selfish aims?

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: EglantinFinfleur

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Common sense dictates that anybody with a hint of good will towards his fellow man won't engage in gratuitous ganking or scamming, given the fact that losing ships or isk equals quite a lot of time lost.

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Common Sense? In my experience that's short-hand for "unexamined assuption".

I'll repeat my earlier question: why is it harder to belive that a normally good person can pretend to be an ebil piwate than it is to believe that they can pretend to be an immortal, god-like starship captain?

In other words, why do you think people can't engage in "moral roleplaying"?

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Is it a coincidence that the jerks out to harass choose to be grief players in Eve? I think not. They choose to be so because the game allows them to use it as a tool to bring real life discomfort to others.

To say that good people choose to "role-play" to be an ******* is laughable. There's no such thing as role-playing a jerk. Hell, take these forums as an example. Usually, the hostile loud-mouthed players against anyone that chooses to play differently from them (ie play a carebear) are grief players. Those usually ridiculing and showing e-peens are grief players.

So to answer your question on why is it harder to belive that a normally good person can pretend to be an ebil piwate than it is to believe that they can pretend to be an immortal, god-like starship captain?

Because their lack of ethics roles over and shows even when posting on the forums, where usually there is no role-playing. The way they carry themselves. And you can defend them and pretend that they're pastors and good samaritans in real life. But I'm betting on that they're either lying or restraining themselves due to real life consequences to their actions.

And your comeback a few posts ago that in cricket it's allowed to taunt and grief, I wasn't talking about whether it is allowed and legal on certain games or not. You see, that's not what this is about. It's about questioning whether it is ethically acceptable to do so. In my opinion, no, it isn't. I don't care that in cricket it is ok to spit on the players. To me, it's not what any sport should be about, unless it's a spitting competition, I guess :\.

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Originally by: Baaldor

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You wouldn't think someone with such supposed high moral fiber be associated with a bunch of immoral ****wits, especially playing a game that supports and promotes this kind of behavior.

Unless of course you are an attention ***** trying to be that special snow flake.

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Originally by: Baaldor

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You wouldn't think someone with such supposed high moral fiber be associated with a bunch of immoral ****wits, especially playing a game that supports and promotes this kind of behavior.

Unless of course you are an attention ***** trying to be that special snow flake.

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You prove my point rather well, Baaldor.

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Originally by: Romo Skywind

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Maikeruko

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Of course. First though, I'd like to point out that idea of morality is artificial. There is no such thing as morality. Humans are just arrogant enough to believe we know what's "right."

However, my moral compass from real life indeed passes into EVE. I have never and will never engage in PVP. I refuse to deprive another person of an item which, although virtual, cost a living being hours of their life and could possibly emotionally harm them by its loss. This is a game, but it's a damn important one to a lot of people. If you take actions that could upset people and you don't care, you're a jerk.

Eve is an incredibly cutthroat game. I'm making my home solar system slightly more livable by not being a total asshat.

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What would you say to an American Football player who refused to tackle an opposing player because he was opposed to violence in pursuit of selfish aims?

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There's nothing wrong with flag football

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Is it a coincidence that the jerks out to harass choose to be grief players in Eve? I think not. They choose to be so because the game allows them to use it as a tool to bring real life discomfort to others.

To say that good people choose to "role-play" to be an ******* is laughable. There's no such thing as role-playing a jerk. Hell, take these forums as an example. Usually, the hostile loud-mouthed players against anyone that chooses to play differently from them (ie play a carebear) are grief players. Those usually ridiculing and showing e-peens are grief players.

So to answer your question on why is it harder to belive that a normally good person can pretend to be an ebil piwate than it is to believe that they can pretend to be an immortal, god-like starship captain?

Because their lack of ethics roles over and shows even when posting on the forums, where usually there is no role-playing. The way they carry themselves. And you can defend them and pretend that they're pastors and good samaritans in real life. But I'm betting on that they're either lying or restraining themselves due to real life consequences to their actions.

And your comeback a few posts ago that in cricket it's allowed to taunt and grief, I wasn't talking about whether it is allowed and legal on certain games or not. You see, that's not what this is about. It's about questioning whether it is ethically acceptable to do so. In my opinion, no, it isn't. I don't care that in cricket it is ok to spit on the players. To me, it's not what any sport should be about, unless it's a spitting competition, I guess :\.

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1. Evil => Griefer
2. Evil <=> Griefer
3. Neither.

Originally by: DeliciousHamBeast

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It's entirely possible to roll-play as some sort of horrible jerk - some people do it all the time. There are people who play games simply to grief or harass other player (they can be found in every multiplayer game and every forum), but not everyone who pirates/pvps/market pvps/scams are here to do that. I could try to draw parallels with chess or competitive sports or even monopoly, but that hasn't worked so far so I'll try this: Eve is a PVP game, if you're flying around in space carrying shinies and I blow you up and take them - well I'm gaining something in a competitive game. If you're missioning and selling your loot on the market and I'm 0.001-isking you to death I'm still working to better my position in a competition. Saying that by doing this I secretly have no personal ethics and am not a "good person" is, in your own words "laughable".

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Quote:

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Speaking of "good" people... How do you decide whether or not a person is a good person? Is it how nice and polite they are to other people, or how much money they donate to charity, what? Arbitrary labels like "good person" don't really lend strength to an argument, considering it's pretty darn subjective.

</ barely coherent ramble>

Coffee time!

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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Originally by: Arthur Frayn

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Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 17/03/2011 09:26:24

Originally by: Nadea Semah

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For those that (arguments sake) were raised with strong ethical and moral backgrounds- based on religion, or what not..

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I object to the notion that religion can be the source of any kind of ethical framework.

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The whole western civilization had heavy influences from religion, and other "big blocks" (middle east and far east) had their own religions drawing the very base values used in those societies. Of course there were people that would oppose them or try subvert them both from the outside and from the inside and a whole lot of rotten apples, but the bases are there.

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Originally by: Eternum Praetorian

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Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 16/03/2011 20:49:31
EVE Can Be Viewed As A Study Of The Human Condition




How many things do you not do simply because you fear it's consequence?


If there are no cops on the road would you speed?
Answer: Yes.


If you could not be arrested for shoplifting at your favorite electronics store would you take that big screen HD TV you have been wanting?
Answer: Yes.


If a truly beautiful woman (I mean stunningly beutiful) showed genuine interest in your tubby, overweight aging body would you cheat if no one would ever know?
Answer: Yes.


If that same woman proclaimed her undying love for you (and she was wealthy) would you leave your current marriage, kids and family to move overseas and be with her? (Really think about it)
Answer: Yes.



I can keep going and going with this (for like pages ) bringing into question everything that you base your entire moral reality on in Real Life. Eve is unique in that it allows for the individual (you) to exist in a world totally free of all moral consequence. "Because after all "It is just a game"




Here in EVE you are presented with choices every day that may only come once or twice in your life outside of EVE. Choices like "Should I steal this because it will benefit me greatly?" or "Should I pester this person until I get my desired emotional response?" all the while you KNOW that whatever you do will not effect you in any way shape or form. Because it is ONLY a game. Right?


. . .




Here, in this digital RL simulator you can get a glimpse of yourself (and the choices you are capable of making) in an arena that absolves you of all consequence, repercussions and yes, even your God. Your God doesn't care what you do in EVE now does it?



Yes this is just a game...
But a human is at the keyboard playing it, and in order for it to exist you must make a choice.
That choice can only reflect the "You" free of the consequences of your actions. Because eve is far to complex to be a simple "First person shooter.


It is a unique environment that requires that you make choices in order to play.




When Leonardo Da vinci took it upon himself to paint people as they truly are on the inside This Is What He Depicted Eve is just an unexpected doorway to help bring mankind's purest, undiluted nature to the surface.

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Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

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Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 17/03/2011 16:24:48

Originally by: DeliciousHamBeast

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It's entirely possible to roll-play as some sort of horrible jerk - some people do it all the time. There are people who play games simply to grief or harass other player (they can be found in every multiplayer game and every forum), but not everyone who pirates/pvps/market pvps/scams are here to do that. I could try to draw parallels with chess or competitive sports or even monopoly, but that hasn't worked so far so I'll try this: Eve is a PVP game, if you're flying around in space carrying shinies and I blow you up and take them - well I'm gaining something in a competitive game. If you're missioning and selling your loot on the market and I'm 0.001-isking you to death I'm still working to better my position in a competition. Saying that by doing this I secretly have no personal ethics and am not a "good person" is, in your own words "laughable".

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I somewhat agree with you on this. But I am not, by any means, suggesting that all pirates are bad people. PVP is indeed an integral part of this game.

What I am proposing is that grief (and mean-spirited) play is not only not necessary but it's brought forth by (RL) disfunctional people to begin with. I'm also saying that these players tend to accomodate themselves quite well as pirates in this game, because the game (and this type of play specifically) facilitates their behavior. And I'm also proposing that you cannot role-play a jerk or bully. You either are or you aren't. When your intentions are to insult or ridicule someone you are no longer doing this in-game. You are trying to emotionally hurt someone in real life. You can no longer chug it up to "it's just a game" because you yourself are no longer treating it as such.

I know there are good people (however many) out there that play pirates. But these aren't the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about the many mean-spirited players that are out to intenionally ruin other people's game experience. You see it on these forums every day (visit C&P). People that play specifically to rile other players and get them to lash out ("collect tears"). Perhaps because they're loud and obnoxious they tend to make it seem worse than it really is. I admit that it's a possibility.

Quote:

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Speaking of "good" people... How do you decide whether or not a person is a good person? Is it how nice and polite they are to other people, or how much money they donate to charity, what? Arbitrary labels like "good person" don't really lend strength to an argument, considering it's pretty darn subjective.

</ barely coherent ramble>

Coffee time!

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Golden rule. Don't like grief? Don't do it.

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Originally by: Cipher Jones

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Originally by: Eternum Praetorian

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My Stuff

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You're a real pice of **** IRL if you really mean that.

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Originally by: Lex Dante

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Originally by: Burial Day

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The issue is more complicated than bringing up extreme hypotheticals and calling the whole thing disproved.

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What "extreme hypotheticals"? I simply stated that EVE is a giant state machine which we cause to transition through states. That's code. How is that "hypothetical"?

Originally by: Burial Day

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I suggest you look up what an appeal to authority is. [...V]ery easy to provide logical proof[...] The issue is more complicated[...] The amount of literature [...] is staggering.

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Right, I'm the one who needs to brush up on his fallacies. Evidence, do you provide it? Or do you hide behind 'logic', 'literature' and 'obviousness'? Then I guess you know exactly how fallacious your argument is.

Originally by: Burial Day

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Injury (and hence morality) involves much more than mere killing. I'm sure you agree how small-minded your claim is.

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Okay, so if I scam someone I'm changing a different property of the state machine that is EVE. Why is that somehow "much more" than "merely" changing a property that indicates the life status of a player?

Originally by: Burial Day

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I said it would be easy to turn real life into a game, not that anyone else had done it[...] The amount of literature on how society and culture are 100% constructs (i.e., human games) is staggering.

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So which is it? Life is just like a game or it isn't?

And even if this is true and at a base level they share simulation aspects in common, why do one set of rules from one game necessarily carry over to another? Because God said so? Because you do?

Do you decry Noughts & Crosses as a disgusting allegory to overpopulation-driven race war? Of course you don't, because that's ridiculous. To state that anyone is acting "immorally", that their in-game behaviour is any indicator of their actual real world behaviour, is just as painfully juvenile and about as deep an examination of human morality as The Matrix was on the nature of reality, little more than a ****-smear.

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Originally by: DeliciousHamBeast

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I've met plenty of good people who happen to also be pirates, several have even blown me up.

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Originally by: Eternum Praetorian

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Originally by: Cipher Jones

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Originally by: Eternum Praetorian

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My Stuff

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You're a real pice of **** IRL if you really mean that.

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Why? This is an observable quality of (at the very least) a vast majority of the Human population? Why does stating this on a video game forum make me a real piece of RL ****?

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Originally by: Sisohiv

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The game doesn't actually lack Morality and ethics. It lacks a point.
<more stuff of interest was here>

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Originally by: Cipher Jones

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Originally by: Eternum Praetorian

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Originally by: Cipher Jones

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Originally by: Eternum Praetorian

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My Stuff

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You're a real pice of **** IRL if you really mean that.

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Why? This is an observable quality of (at the very least) a vast majority of the Human population? Why does stating this on a video game forum make me a real piece of RL ****?

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No, the vast majority of people do not act as you have suggested in the scenarios I quoted you on.

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Originally by: Emperor Cheney

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Comment on EvE/RL supposed discrepancy, that has been addressed a dozen times in this thread.

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