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AristotleOnassis	Posted - 2011.04.01 04:23:00 - [121] Hi. Apple is crunchy, but not really filling Banana's are filling, but not really crunchy Hence Apple are overpowered Lasers are best in situation A but not B Blasters are best in situation B but not A hence laser is overpowered.
Paikis Red Federation	Posted - 2011.04.01 04:26:00 - [122] Originally by: AristotleOnassis Lasers are best in situation A but not B Blasters are best in situation B but not A hence laser is overpowered. Situation B never happens. Hence laser is overpowered. /thread.
Trust'me im'honest	Posted - 2011.04.01 04:43:00 - [123] Originally by: AristotleOnassis Hi. Apple is crunchy, but not really filling Banana's are filling, but not really crunchy Hence Apple are overpowered But you see this confuses me because oranges aren't filling or crunchy so surely oranges need to be buffed. But holy **** balls do I love orange juice oooooh god, NOTHING is more refreshing SWEET NECTAR OF THE GODS I COULD DRINK THEE ALL DAY!
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.01 05:39:00 - [124] Originally by: AristotleOnassis Hi. Apple is crunchy, but not really filling Banana's are not really any more filling than apples, and not really crunchy Hence Apple are overpowered Lasers are best in situation A by about 300% Blasters are best in situation B by about 5%, and even then that's only on paper hence laser is overpowered. Fixed your post.
Doug Drafto	Posted - 2011.04.01 05:58:00 - [125] Originally by: AristotleOnassis Hi. Apple is crunchy, but not really filling Banana's are filling, but not really crunchy Hence Apple are overpowered Lasers are best in situation A but not B Blasters are best in situation B but not A hence laser is overpowered. No. The point is that blasters aren't good in any situation. Crunchy or filling, hence they suck.
Darius Brinn Iberians	Posted - 2011.04.01 07:10:00 - [126] Originally by: AristotleOnassis Lasers are best in situation A but not B Blasters are best in situation B but not A hence laser is overpowered. Dear Santa, I know we still have 9 months of being good before being eligible for presents, but when it's due time, this year I'd like to find my blaster ships in some B situations, for a change. EvE to me seems to be exclusively made of A situations. Even near blaster optimal, A is all I seem to find.
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2011.04.01 09:26:00 - [127] If you want to entertain terrible real life analogies It's more like You can kill someone with an Axe which will do slightly more damage per swing vs per shot, but you have to get close to people, and it's harder to escape since it weighs you down, also you are more likely to get trapped and ganged up on, people can kite you and shoot you with their guns while you cannot catch up to them. You can kill someone with a Gun and stay 50 yards away from the fight the entire time, you can also move faster because it doesn't weigh as much, and you can carry more equipment so you're more versatile. Are people saying you can't kill people with the Axe? No. Are you better off with the gun 95% of the time? Yes. ---
Swynet	Posted - 2011.04.01 09:30:00 - [128] Originally by: Suitonia If you want to entertain terrible real life analogies It's more like You can kill someone with an Axe which will do slightly more damage per swing vs per shot, but you have to get close to people, and it's harder to escape since it weighs you down, also you are more likely to get trapped and ganged up on, people can kite you and shoot you with their guns while you cannot catch up to them. You can kill someone with a Gun and stay 50 yards away from the fight the entire time, you can also move faster because it doesn't weigh as much, and you can carry more equipment so you're more versatile. Are people saying you can't kill people with the Axe? No. Are you better off with the gun 95% of the time? Yes. Lets do babies together ________________________________________________ Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
Flex Nebura Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.01 09:39:00 - [129] Originally by: Suitonia If you want to entertain terrible real life analogies It's more like You can kill someone with an Axe which will do slightly more damage per swing vs per shot, but you have to get close to people, and it's harder to escape since it weighs you down, also you are more likely to get trapped and ganged up on, people can kite you and shoot you with their guns while you cannot catch up to them. You can kill someone with a Gun and stay 50 yards away from the fight the entire time, you can also move faster because it doesn't weigh as much, and you can carry more equipment so you're more versatile. Are people saying you can't kill people with the Axe? No. Are you better off with the gun 95% of the time? Yes. And the gun works at axe range too. So even in those 5% of the time, you are still in the fight. And the differences only escalate as the fight grows. If there are 5 kiters and 5 brawlers... Every time the brawlers manage a kill they have to start from scratch getting close to their new target.. all the while the kiters are picking them off..
Crellion Parental Control HELL4S	Posted - 2011.04.01 11:30:00 - [130] Hi all. I am using all systems of all races across two accounts. Blasters now days have no competitive advantages. You can use them with a minor discomfort in some situations and a major discomfort in more situations but as I have the ability to choose I never choose them anymore... It has become so bad over the years that nowadays if CCP said they cant fix them in the usual suggested way (add dps or tracking or range or remove cap usage <good idea>) or by affording additional advantages to the designated blaster boats and rail boats that dont have an alternative (i.e. fix deimos, eagle, brutic, mega, rokh, leave alone Ishtar Domi Cerberus etc etc) I would even wellcome at this stage the thrid oddball alternative of giving them a twist (something like 2% webbing effect per gun) ... If you suggested this three years ago I would pos you but now I ll take aything CCP might be willing to throw our way.... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Proxyyyy Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.04.01 14:05:00 - [131] Originally by: Flex Nebura Originally by: Suitonia If you want to entertain terrible real life analogies It's more like You can kill someone with an Axe which will do slightly more damage per swing vs per shot, but you have to get close to people, and it's harder to escape since it weighs you down, also you are more likely to get trapped and ganged up on, people can kite you and shoot you with their guns while you cannot catch up to them. You can kill someone with a Gun and stay 50 yards away from the fight the entire time, you can also move faster because it doesn't weigh as much, and you can carry more equipment so you're more versatile. Are people saying you can't kill people with the Axe? No. Are you better off with the gun 95% of the time? Yes. And the gun works at axe range too. Was hella funny already, but you killed it! 'currently rolling on the floor laughing' So, giving Gallente ships more damage would just be a "axe" with a larger blade? By the way, cant you throw a axe? Also, Serpentis ships would be even worse without factin-web range (IMO) and you still miss frigates with a 90% web in a Vigilant. Once their orbit settles, it's mainly drones doing damage (decided to fight 7 assault frigates @ a gate).I noticed the Ashimmu misses even cruisers more than often (heavy pulse). Missing shots in my optimal is nothing new to me, because it happens from time to time in all my engagements. A taranis once abused my daredevil(rail). i could'nt track him to well in a tight orbit.
Jame Jarl Retief	Posted - 2011.04.01 15:02:00 - [132] Originally by: Proxyyyy By the way, cant you throw a axe? Great idea. That way the other guy will have a gun AND an axe... j/k
AristotleOnassis	Posted - 2011.04.01 15:02:00 - [133] and no. banana's are insanely filling. two is practically enough for lunch. a dozen apple's? lol axe is also wrong to trademark a gallente. dominix's and ishtar's drone all could reach further then scorch. if they wanted to.
Flex Nebura Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.01 17:39:00 - [134] Originally by: Proxyyyy Originally by: Flex Nebura Originally by: Suitonia If you want to entertain terrible real life analogies It's more like You can kill someone with an Axe which will do slightly more damage per swing vs per shot, but you have to get close to people, and it's harder to escape since it weighs you down, also you are more likely to get trapped and ganged up on, people can kite you and shoot you with their guns while you cannot catch up to them. You can kill someone with a Gun and stay 50 yards away from the fight the entire time, you can also move faster because it doesn't weigh as much, and you can carry more equipment so you're more versatile. Are people saying you can't kill people with the Axe? No. Are you better off with the gun 95% of the time? Yes. And the gun works at axe range too. Was hella funny already, but you killed it! 'currently rolling on the floor laughing' So, giving Gallente ships more damage would just be a "axe" with a larger blade? By the way, cant you throw a axe? Also, Serpentis ships would be even worse without factin-web range (IMO) and you still miss frigates with a 90% web in a Vigilant. Once their orbit settles, it's mainly drones doing damage (decided to fight 7 assault frigates @ a gate).I noticed the Ashimmu misses even cruisers more than often (heavy pulse). Missing shots in my optimal is nothing new to me, because it happens from time to time in all my engagements. A taranis once abused my daredevil(rail). i could'nt track him to well in a tight orbit. /me pistolwhips Proxyyyy
RisingDragon	Posted - 2011.04.01 22:26:00 - [135] Edited by: RisingDragon on 01/04/2011 22:28:20 Compare the market.com! I think the biggest proof something is wrong is shown quite clearly in the t2 ship market specifically with ships meant for pvp assault. Ive ignored the t1 market as there is very little profit margi (the ships being produced for almost base value). The claims large hybrids are worse doesnt reflect significantly but then t2 battleships are a different kettle of fish and there seems to be acceptance that small hybrids (blasters at least) are ok. The weapons themselves were ignored as they each have different styles (3 types of blaster/rails, 2 types of beam/pulse, 2 types of artillery/ac's, 1 type of HAM/HM), best named and also that hybrids are used by two races where lasers and projectiles are used by 1. This really leaves the t2 HAC's and Field Commandships as they are mostly pvp based yet are selling above base price. Current Jita prices (descending value) Heavy assault cruisers Vagabond (Projectiles) - 132.3m (100%) Sacrelige* (Missiles) - 121.3m (91.8%) (-8.2%) Munin (Projectiles) - 121.0m (91%) (-9%) Zealot (Lasers) - 117.5m (88.9%) (-11.1%) Ishtar (Drones) - 111.0m (84%) (16%) Cerberus (Missiles) - 110.0m (83.2%) (16.8%) Deimos Hybrids) - 82.0m (62%) (38%) Eagle (Hybrids) - 72.0m (54%) (46%) The difference between the ships is quite vast but the two hybrid boats are another league apart from the rest of the field (even upto the worst non hybrid) *I ignored the person selling 12 sacrilege's for 115m when the best buy offer was 118m Commandships - (field command only) Absolution (Lasers) - 225.0m (100%) Slepnir (Projectiles) - 217.9m (96.8%) (-3.2%) Nighthawk (Missiles) - 215.0m (95.6%) (-4.5%) Astarte (Hybrids) - 140.0m (62.2%) (-37.8%) Again the hybrid boat is significantly cheaper. CCP know perfectly well blasters/hybrids are underpowered and the only explanation for not beefing them up is that its an intentional nerf to force cross training. Other wise they lied through their teeth when they said blasters work as intended
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.01 23:16:00 - [136] Originally by: Proxyyyy Also, Serpentis ships would be even worse without factin-web range (IMO) and you still miss frigates with a 90% web in a Vigilant. Once their orbit settles, it's mainly drones doing damage (decided to fight 7 assault frigates @ a gate).I noticed the Ashimmu misses even cruisers more than often (heavy pulse). Missing shots in my optimal is nothing new to me, because it happens from time to time in all my engagements. A taranis once abused my daredevil(rail). i could'nt track him to well in a tight orbit. A 90% web don't gives you god mode at point blank, it makes you a more effective tackler in general scenarios. However it also enable you to play 1oX a lot more effective(by raising the point where they can out tackle you and are in full control of range to a point that is actually suitable for real TQ solo PVP) or steamroll ships with peak dps in very skilled hands that know how to take full advantage of superior range/transversal control at point blank. It is pretty powerful if played right, even if it will not create the next FOTM(by the simple lack of power in bigger scenarios). It boosts blaster pvp back in the position it was pre QR(speed difference is a lot lower, targets can shut down your mobility more effective, give or take). Additional changes are required(mostly speed/agility and settle the DPS/EHP balance with a DPS buff), however a lot of ground is gained if blaster ships perform a bit more like back in the days at point blank again. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
oldmanst4r Minmatar oldmanst4r's Corporation	Posted - 2011.04.02 03:02:00 - [137] Just throwing this out there, eh.....I'm not a balancing expert and I don't really fly gallente so take this with like 10 grains of salt or something. Feel free to flame/destroy/slighly modify my idea. For every appropriate gallente blaster boat: Role Bonus: +100% to MWD speed boost +100% bonus to mass with MWD active +100% MWD capacitor usage. What this does is kill your agility and cap with MWD on but it allows you to go tremendous speeds in a straight line for short bursts. That way you can close on ships that are kiting you with good piloting and timed overheated mwd pulses. However, if the other pilot is smart he can burn away in a different direction and you'll miss him because you can't turn and if you keep your mwd on for any extended period of time you'll cap out leaving you unable to use your blasters when you finally do close range. Any thoughts? Originally by: CCP Shadow snip Castration successful. Shadow.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.03 09:05:00 - [138] Originally by: oldmanst4r Just throwing this out there, eh.....I'm not a balancing expert and I don't really fly gallente so take this with like 10 grains of salt or something. Feel free to flame/destroy/slighly modify my idea. For every appropriate gallente blaster boat: Role Bonus: +100% to MWD speed boost +100% bonus to mass with MWD active +100% MWD capacitor usage. What this does is kill your agility and cap with MWD on but it allows you to go tremendous speeds in a straight line for short bursts. That way you can close on ships that are kiting you with good piloting and timed overheated mwd pulses. However, if the other pilot is smart he can burn away in a different direction and you'll miss him because you can't turn and if you keep your mwd on for any extended period of time you'll cap out leaving you unable to use your blasters when you finally do close range. Any thoughts? The problem with this is that you not only need to bring the blaster ship to a position where it can do damage but also stop it exactly in this position/or at least show it down enough to don't drift out of range again and track your target. A skilled pilot can already burn out of your path to ensure you will miss your predicted spot where you want to stop in web/scram range. This change would only make it worse without improving the other key problem about range/traversal control within web range. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.04.03 18:57:00 - [139] I think the answer to OP question is: CCP are not really sure how to fix them. Some people say to boost tracking and damage but CCP said they were worried this would make them OP(?). Besides this would not really solve the real issues of blasters unless the buff was big and can you see that happening? Fixing the gallente and a few caldari ships would be a big and risky job. Can't see them doing it tbh. There are also some suggestions surrounding ammo ranging from interesting to ludicras.
Lonesome Joe	Posted - 2011.04.03 22:31:00 - [140] I find there is just a lot of downsides to Blasters in real situations. Blasters seem to necessitate a ship that can quickly get in close to a target (get under hostile guns) so that they can be effective. With this logic it appears they are better suited to Minmatar ships than Gallente. Then you add the cap drain of Blasters, multiplied by the fact you had to MWD to target (upping your sig rad making you a better target for whatever already has you in range), possibly about to activate your own scram/web, possibly about to be Nueted and so even less cap, well...I just see your cap drained and sitting there about to die and not even able to get out of scram/web range yourself.
Wolfy2449 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2011.04.03 23:56:00 - [141] Originally by: Lonesome Joe I find there is just a lot of downsides to Blasters in real situations. Blasters seem to necessitate a ship that can quickly get in close to a target (get under hostile guns) so that they can be effective But why not simply use autocanons, you will do the same damage and without the need to close to the ship In whole fight dps blasters and auto cannons have the same damage not to say blasters have less Signature removed for being not EVE related. Zymurgist
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.04.04 00:14:00 - [142] Originally by: Wolfy2449 Originally by: Lonesome Joe I find there is just a lot of downsides to Blasters in real situations. Blasters seem to necessitate a ship that can quickly get in close to a target (get under hostile guns) so that they can be effective But why not simply use autocanons, you will do the same damage and without the need to close to the ship In whole fight dps blasters and auto cannons have the same damage not to say blasters have less Scandalous lies Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Justin Cody Caldari Instant Annihilation Everto Rex Regis	Posted - 2011.04.04 04:41:00 - [143] Originally by: Wolfy2449 what i dont understand is that gallente ships, which are supposed to be blaster ships have HORRIBLE speed, especially the cruisers. I mean they are very very slow compared to some other cruisers and gallente are supposed to be close range ships you nailed the problem for blasters...its speed of the ships wielding them, For rails the problem is lack of alpha...because DPS is not relevant for sniping. Don't believe me? Look at the Tempest. Remind people that profit is the difference between revenue and expense. This makes you look smart. Scott Adams
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.04 05:27:00 - [144] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Originally by: Wolfy2449 Originally by: Lonesome Joe I find there is just a lot of downsides to Blasters in real situations. Blasters seem to necessitate a ship that can quickly get in close to a target (get under hostile guns) so that they can be effective But why not simply use autocanons, you will do the same damage and without the need to close to the ship In whole fight dps blasters and auto cannons have the same damage not to say blasters have less Scandalous lies You doing it wrong. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Wolfy2449 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2011.04.04 05:57:00 - [145] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Originally by: Wolfy2449 Originally by: Lonesome Joe I find there is just a lot of downsides to Blasters in real situations. Blasters seem to necessitate a ship that can quickly get in close to a target (get under hostile guns) so that they can be effective But why not simply use autocanons, you will do the same damage and without the need to close to the ship In whole fight dps blasters and auto cannons have the same damage not to say blasters have less Scandalous lies You doing it wrong. eft warriors r always doing it wrong Signature removed for being not EVE related. Zymurgist
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.04 06:07:00 - [146] Originally by: Wolfy2449 eft warriors r always doing it wrong EFT is a awesome tool, most people just using it wrong(like a gedon out damage a mega, or the target is a BS at close range, instead of a BC at med range that you shoot 90% of the time down in low sec). This picture might be a lot closer to reality of solo/small gang pvp than many like to admit: Linkage The green line is the mega, blue the cane, red the pest(not in a terrible at setup, but the common nano pest). ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.04.04 11:43:00 - [147] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Originally by: Wolfy2449 Originally by: Lonesome Joe I find there is just a lot of downsides to Blasters in real situations. Blasters seem to necessitate a ship that can quickly get in close to a target (get under hostile guns) so that they can be effective But why not simply use autocanons, you will do the same damage and without the need to close to the ship In whole fight dps blasters and auto cannons have the same damage not to say blasters have less Scandalous lies This graph shows large gun combat in large, slow ships. The graphs for Cruisers and BattleCruisers as well as re-game situations (like being webbed to **** or needing to switch targets without moving 10km) seem to be missing from your example?
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.04.04 15:23:00 - [148] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Wolfy2449 eft warriors r always doing it wrong EFT is a awesome tool, most people just using it wrong(like a gedon out damage a mega, or the target is a BS at close range, instead of a BC at med range that you shoot 90% of the time down in low sec). This picture might be a lot closer to reality of solo/small gang pvp than many like to admit: Linkage The green line is the mega, blue the cane, red the pest(not in a terrible at setup, but the common nano pest). ZOMG! Shieldfit fit gank ships outdamage a bricked mega! STOP THE PRESSES An actual comparison That one uses same target and speed as yours, except for two important differences, 1) My megathron fit is actually somewhat decent 2) Some shield blaster ships are thrown in as well. Anyway, please continue, tell me how that eve combat never takes place within 20km etc etc. Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.04 21:20:00 - [149] Edited by: The Djego on 04/04/2011 21:22:24 Edited by: The Djego on 04/04/2011 21:20:51 Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Wolfy2449 eft warriors r always doing it wrong EFT is a awesome tool, most people just using it wrong(like a gedon out damage a mega, or the target is a BS at close range, instead of a BC at med range that you shoot 90% of the time down in low sec). This picture might be a lot closer to reality of solo/small gang pvp than many like to admit: Linkage The green line is the mega, blue the cane, red the pest(not in a terrible at setup, but the common nano pest). ZOMG! Shieldfit fit gank ships outdamage a bricked mega! STOP THE PRESSES An actual comparison That one uses same target and speed as yours, except for two important differences, 1) My megathron fit is actually somewhat decent 2) Some shield blaster ships are thrown in as well. Anyway, please continue, tell me how that eve combat never takes place within 20km etc etc. It is actually not a gank fit on the pest -> 2 gyro, 2 TE standard nano fit. The mega is the standard 3 MFS, Neutron fit(also not really the gank version). I for myself consider the pest actually as a very good gank BS today and my standards are kind of high(fap fap 1600 DPS mega pilot representing). A blaster ship itself, if you want to archive gank, isn't really useful outside a peak dps situation, what it needs to be able to archive and more important keep up against a target even against the odds, both of it is practically impossible since QR against anybody non afk. So I take the 90-85% with the pest, since it is still a lot better than most other ships can deliver in real solo/small gang combat. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Swynet	Posted - 2011.04.05 11:57:00 - [150] Quote: Other wise they lied through their teeth when they said blasters work as intended When it's up to keep people paying subs and make them stay longer everything goes, and having to cross train instead of doing it for the fun of a pirate ship costs cheaper than an extension to keep you playing. takes his pills ________________________________________________ Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.

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