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Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.04.19 12:06:00 - [211] Edited by: Sable Schroedinger on 19/04/2011 12:07:05 Personally, I think the only real changes needed to Hybrids is for the range of Rails being lowered (with a related increase in damage) to a level where a high skilled caldari with spike hits out to 250 (adjust for ship class, not meaning that a frig should hit that far ;) ) it really is silly that caldari can't use their bonus on some ships due to the max lock range. Either than, or change the max lock range since the game has moved on a lot since it was put in. Nerf tracking on pulse lasers - the tracking boost was part of making lasers work when they were the most complained about weapon system. However, this was fixed in an effective damage boost when resistances were lowered, however the previous attempts weren't rolled back. tweak the effect of TEs on fall off and optimal (not remove it, just a tweak to lower some of the sillier ranges). The lack of effect on fall off was complained about by projectile users when projectiles were seen as bottom of the pack. Whilst I like the change, I think its gone a little far. Tweak the max speed of blaster boats, maybe at the expense of agility so that they don't compete with Minmatar if that becomes a risk. Think that should just about do it. -------------------------------------------- SF Recruiting
Violine Ming Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2011.04.19 21:49:00 - [212] Originally by: Kelio Rift Edited by: Kelio Rift on 19/04/2011 00:40:11 Isn't Faction Warfare = Blob Wars? Back to the topic... 1. Uhmmm, no. If you look at the top 10, many of those km's were in smaller group fights --so no. 2. I was on topic. The fact that pre-web-nerf, the Gallente faction milita was mainly populated by Gallente ships. I was away from Eve for a couple of years, went out and looked at the killboards (thinking of re-joining) and noticed how things have changed. It's just one more piece of evidence that hybrids are a mess.
Debrie	Posted - 2011.04.20 03:06:00 - [213] Edited by: Debrie on 20/04/2011 03:09:14 personally I think Rails are "ok" great range and RoF ( destroyer reaching out n touching someone @ 100 km is very managable with frigate rails ) as for Blasters ..... tracking at there optimals are abysmal and damage just beyond there optimal is the same (my full rack of large nuetrons (largest blasters available) 1/3rd into fall off does less damage than the same ship with dual 250 rails (smallest rails available) @ same range 15 km's)(T1 guns anyhow) increase tracking 10% and damage an additional 10% see how they perform before more changes
Songbird Gallente T.I.E. Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.11 15:28:00 - [214] Again rails are not ok - they have abysmal damage - the only other guns with that little damage are the artilleries and they have the huge alpha going on for them. The guns rails should be comparable with are the lasers both have : 2 damage types, both use cap, they have comparable ROF, rails use ammo but also less cap, lasers use more cap but have the unlimited ammo and insta change. The big difference is that lasers have 20-30% more damage so long range setups are viable, FFS people use lasers for rokhs even- it's freaking unbelievable.
Swynet	Posted - 2011.05.11 15:39:00 - [215] Originally by: Songbird FFS people use lasers for rokhs even- it's freaking unbelievable. Has the Shield/T2 Autos Dominix, It's perfectly Gallente design. When you start using other stuff than racial one because you're more efficient than there is some problem. When auto canons are the best option because they can do the same job than lasers and are far better than blasters, then that is a problem. I'm not asking for Autos/arty's nerf, just asking my racial guns become an viable and acceptable option in most cases and not just 1% of the time in 1% of the fleets/gangs.
Precisionist	Posted - 2011.05.11 16:44:00 - [216] Yo CCP why are you not fixing these turrets, its pretty obvious they are the worst, both blasters and rails.
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.05.11 17:37:00 - [217] Edited by: Von Kroll on 11/05/2011 17:37:34 Originally by: Swynet I'm not asking for Autos/arty's nerf, just asking my racial guns become an viable and acceptable option in most cases and not just 1% of the time in 1% of the fleets/gangs. One thing to remember is that the community whined about projectiles just like we are about hybrids, and when CCP buffed them, everyone started complaining that Projectiles were OP. Maybe if they'd left the tracking enhancers as they were, it wouldn't be so bad. My point is just that if CCP buffs rails, don't expect a small tweak--expect the sledgehammer approach they used on projectiles and ECM. I wasn't around for the laser buff, but I assume it was a similar type of change. I'd rather have what we have now, than go through another "buff [insert either lasers or proj]" after a hybrid buff is done in the usual manner.
Van Steiza Battlestars	Posted - 2011.05.11 18:55:00 - [218] Granted they are not the best at down range pvp ie 10km plus in a battleship you dont have a problem with null but obvoiusly in bcs its a problem. But thats what makes blasters different.... the skull****ing close range dps of them you just need to be a smart pilot to get someone in your range although it is hard it makes the fight more worth it in the end when you do win. Ive had no trouble in my Vindicator soloing :p although its pimped ----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters.
Kunming Viziam	Posted - 2011.05.11 18:57:00 - [219] You cant increase lock range without fundamentally changing the game. 250km is the max distance from the center of a grid, if u increase max lock range then u need to increase the size of grids too, sounds complicated.. Blasters just need more pure dmg IMO, once a blasterboat is on its target it should just melt it in seconds, thats not the case most of the time and at best its 5-10% more dmg than a pulseboat, which has 500% more range. If blasters had really serious dmg output ppl would dare to take on all the disadvantages and fight point blank range, ATM its simply not worth it considering the alternatives.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.11 23:53:00 - [220] Originally by: Kunming You cant increase lock range without fundamentally changing the game. 250km is the max distance from the center of a grid, if u increase max lock range then u need to increase the size of grids too, sounds complicated.. Grid sizes are dynamic; the game can change them on the go. It would be trivial to set the base grid size as something larger than it currently is.
Leekana Gallente Digital Messiahs	Posted - 2011.05.12 07:19:00 - [221] I think the biggest thing, is that CCP doesn't want to turn rails into replica's of projectile turrets. Honestly I don't want that either... I am not well educated on rails. But with my little experience and what I have seen they do need some love. Mostly I think they need a dmg upgrade, I think its dumb ccp made gallente so drone dependent with "some" of their ship fits. No other race is effected so greatly in their ability to dps on a "Secondary" damage addition. And yes I think drones are a supportive form of dmg. (though EW drones, sentries, and heavies, can shine). No one wants to rely entirely on a damage source that can be nuetralized in almost every aspect of the game. CCP in my opinion should lower the range on rails buffing their damage. Increase the tracking and range on blasters. Lets face it, flying a bs like a rifter in pvp isn't always practical. Honestly most of the gallente ships need some looking into. And not by the standard and performance that other ships provide. But in a fashion that keeps hybrids unique. TL;DR, I agree CCP will probably over do it on any change they make. But these aren't exactly new and exciting ideas. And unless someone can post hard numbers to balance them out. It will be omg sniping rohk 1300 dps at 120km, lulzlulzlulz The BIG Lottery
Concubinia Scarlett	Posted - 2011.05.12 11:02:00 - [222] Personal preference would be to leave hybrids as they are, and change the ship bonuses, give Gallente ships much better drone bonuses, make them their 'primary' weapon system. Increase their drone damage & speed and bonus the web/neut/TP drones to actualy make them a useful and viable alternative on these ships. So in terms of primary & secondary weapons make it: amarr = laser/drones minnie = proj/missile caldari = missiles/hybrids gallente = drones/hybrids
Songbird Gallente T.I.E. Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.12 13:22:00 - [223] Amarr also have the khanid ships which are mainly missile based. but that's beside the point. It's obvious something's gotta give - situation is not good for gallente ships and weapon systems. I don't care if the change is to give all gallente ships 50more drone bandwidth and let the sentry drones actually follow their mom ship, or the rails get higher damage and less range so they will allow gallenteans to have long range equivalent of AC's/pulse lasers. Change is needed
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.05.12 13:44:00 - [224] Hybrids are fine. There are worst problems in EVE Blasters are the best weapons for station camping. And station camping and gate camping is 99% of EVE PVP. They have a super important role here. high sec gates drop you 12km. and stations are directly in optimal What needs fixing is cruise missiles. As long as cruise missiles are never used for pvp, they are much much much much worst then hybrids and need fixing. Maybe an additional explosion velocity and alpha bonus on the raven to compensate.
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.05.12 14:25:00 - [225] Originally by: Straight Edged Hybrids are fine. There are worst problems in EVE What needs fixing is cruise missiles. I'd say hybrids aren't necessarily "fine", but I agree that there are worse problems. You guys can stop me if you're tired of hearing it, but if you buff railgun damage, and buff blaster range, the combination of typical Gallente damage bonuses, and Caldari range bonuses create problems. For example, if railguns got a 5% overall increase in damage, then you'd have a situation where a shield-tanked Brutix, for example, would be able to put out over 550 DPS at 14+13 in gun damage alone. Throw in drones, and you're over 700 DPS on a BC, without any pimp mods or goofy fits. Even though the Caldari boats would get competitive levels of damage, the Gal boats would get a bit OP. The range buff wouldn't be as big of a problem I guess, but still, you're looking at 30km optimals with a Rokh using Null.
Onictus	Posted - 2011.05.12 16:51:00 - [226] Yet 550 dose drakes with litteally 3 times the tank of a shield brutix are fine?
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.12 17:01:00 - [227] Originally by: Straight Edged Hybrids are fine. There are worst problems in EVE What needs fixing is cruise missiles. yeah because a weapon system used by maybe 3 ships not being useful in pvp is definitely a bigger problem than a weapon system used by literally half the races in the game, across several ship classes Originally by: Von Kroll You guys can stop me if you're tired of hearing it, but if you buff railgun damage, and buff blaster range, the combination of typical Gallente damage bonuses, and Caldari range bonuses create problems. For example, if railguns got a 5% overall increase in damage, then you'd have a situation where a shield-tanked Brutix, for example, would be able to put out over 550 DPS at 14+13 in gun damage alone. Throw in drones, and you're over 700 DPS on a BC, without any pimp mods or goofy fits. Even though the Caldari boats would get competitive levels of damage, the Gal boats would get a bit OP. Let's look at some examples shall we? A megathron does a whopping 10% more raw DPS than an armageddon, and the geddon has 300% more range. A 700 DPS brutix? A shield gank harbinger can do 900 with a t2 fit. If you think blasters/rails are fine then you must really not realize just how much pulses and ACs got boosted. Originally by: Von Kroll The range buff wouldn't be as big of a problem I guess, but still, you're looking at 30km optimals with a Rokh using Null. You are aware of the fact that a pulse apoc can be fit to hit 100km yes? Or that a mach/vargur can easily get 100km falloff with ACs? A battleship with a range bonus being able to hit out at 30km? That's 2 thirds the optimal of a non-range-bonused BS using pulses(for less dps I might add)! Clearly this would be OP
Ilah Gruhbarn	Posted - 2011.05.12 17:03:00 - [228] well if blastors are bad due the range maybe other two turret system are slightly op i think some nerf to lazors and slightly less to ac are in order. not long time ago ac,s were terrible and i still think artys are(lag&blob made high alpha viable but that doesn't mean artys are good) now blastors are at the bottom,thanks to CCP or should i say buff to ac,s so...how about CCP take an crap at lazors like they did @ two above lowering range so that blastors can have "more room" to close in. anyway my point would be lower short weapon ranges so that they are in line with blastors and in line with "short range" weapons in the tittle being able to have 60k+ optimal range in "short range" is just completely pushing "long range" weapons in PVP sniper mode and certain missions only,in other words making them obsolete in a way/less usable in general. my two unbaked cents.
Darius Brinn Iberians	Posted - 2011.05.12 18:03:00 - [229] Originally by: Straight Edged Blasters are the best weapons for station camping. Oh, no they aren't. Their range is abysmal, and if you manage to actually catch your target, their DPS is lackluster for the troubles this gives you, and how inefficient are the ships that mount them. Blasters are frustrating because even if you manage to get into damn range, the damage difference between them and autocannons/pulses are so pathetic that blaster users usually get outdamaged at their optimal if the target actually moves. Also, the bonus in Gallente ships suck. No, really. Their bonus suck. Both battlecruisers have ACTIVE ARMOR TANKING bonus. WTF, CCP? Armor tanking makes you SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW. Which is not good if your best T2 medium blasters have 2km optimal. Hybrids SUCK, mostly because the ships designed to mount them are SLOW BRICKS. That's why their poor performance is less evident in smaller ships. Frigates can almost get away with it, Battlecruisers and Battleships cannot. Yes, you can kill with blasters. And with rails. They shoot, they do damage, it can be done. But why bother, when lother turrets get the job done much more effectively, applying more damage at much better ranges? When people mounts OTHER turrets on their Hybrid-bonused ships, something is horribly wrong.
EnslaverOfMinmatar Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.12 18:30:00 - [230] Yeah, boost blasters because I want to go from OMGPWNPEWPEWPEW**D to OMGWTFPWNPEWPEWPEW**D uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ [yellow]Signature removed. Please submit a petition for fu
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.05.12 18:50:00 - [231] Originally by: Cambarus A megathron does a whopping 10% more raw DPS than an armageddon, and the geddon has 300% more range. A 700 DPS brutix? A shield gank harbinger can do 900 with a t2 fit. If you think blasters/rails are fine then you must really not realize just how much pulses and ACs got boosted. You're comparing a tier 1 BC versus a tier 2 BC. Compare a Prophecy to a Brutix and a Geddon to a Hype. And my point on the damage buff was for Rails, not blasters. I didn't say hybrids were fine. My point is that balancing them is going to be tough for CCP because of the ship bonuses for both Caldari and Gallente gunboats. You are aware of the fact that a pulse apoc can be fit to hit 100km yes? Or that a mach/vargur can easily get 100km falloff with ACs? A battleship with a range bonus being able to hit out at 30km? That's 2 thirds the optimal of a non-range-bonused BS using pulses(for less dps I might add)! Clearly this would be OP Look, the problems of scorch are a separate issue. I think a lot of people think scorch is unbalanced. And Mach/Vargurs are pirate boats, mega expensive, and not really relevant to what we're talking about here. Do we, as a community, want another "scorch" to complain about after CCP "tweaks" rails? I have almost perfect hybrid skills--I've invested a lot of training into them, and I don't fly other ships, so I'm not biased here. All I'm saying is that we should all be careful what we wish for. The only people happy with Scorch are laser users (and some of them would even admit its potentially unbalanced) and everyone complains about what the last change did to projectiles. We could potentially see the same backlash after a hybrid buff--that's all I'm saying.
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.12 22:33:00 - [232] Originally by: Von Kroll Originally by: Cambarus A megathron does a whopping 10% more raw DPS than an armageddon, and the geddon has 300% more range. A 700 DPS brutix? A shield gank harbinger can do 900 with a t2 fit. If you think blasters/rails are fine then you must really not realize just how much pulses and ACs got boosted. You're comparing a tier 1 BC versus a tier 2 BC. Compare a Prophecy to a Brutix and a Geddon to a Hype. And my point on the damage buff was for Rails, not blasters. I didn't say hybrids were fine. My point is that balancing them is going to be tough for CCP because of the ship bonuses for both Caldari and Gallente gunboats. You are aware of the fact that a pulse apoc can be fit to hit 100km yes? Or that a mach/vargur can easily get 100km falloff with ACs? A battleship with a range bonus being able to hit out at 30km? That's 2 thirds the optimal of a non-range-bonused BS using pulses(for less dps I might add)! Clearly this would be OP Look, the problems of scorch are a separate issue. I think a lot of people think scorch is unbalanced. And Mach/Vargurs are pirate boats, mega expensive, and not really relevant to what we're talking about here. Do we, as a community, want another "scorch" to complain about after CCP "tweaks" rails? I have almost perfect hybrid skills--I've invested a lot of training into them, and I don't fly other ships, so I'm not biased here. All I'm saying is that we should all be careful what we wish for. The only people happy with Scorch are laser users (and some of them would even admit its potentially unbalanced) and everyone complains about what the last change did to projectiles. We could potentially see the same backlash after a hybrid buff--that's all I'm saying. oh noo maybe ccp ****s up the buff and hybrids become imba op just like projectiles atm ,oh nooo lets dont do anything only 90% fly matar ships anyway still lots of diverity can be found in the rest 10% even after hybrid boost still cald/gall ship would be the worst of every ship type slowest unfittable abominations with huge sig radius and cap issues so dont do anything ccp , just change the games name to matar online pls, console gamers doesnt like to choose anyway so this game would be much better with only one race
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.05.13 01:29:00 - [233] As i said again. There are worse problems then hybrids. Blasters are fine, because stations eject ships right into optimal. And high sec system gates place stuff 15km, well in the range of blasters. Sure , lasers have 50km, but its mostly useless as stuff will be in 15km range. Furthermore, gallente DO have means to shoot to 60km. We call it drones. But cruise missiles is not used AT ALL in pvp. This is the one which needs fixing. If cruise missiles doesnt get fixed, why should hybrids gets it? No one uses cruise missiles in PVP. as i said. it needs double the alpha, maybe 5 times more flight speed (with 5 times less flight time). It also needs a better explosion size and velocity. It also needs to be cheaper, on top of another missile slot on both raven and CNR. It also should move faster as the range goes higher, with an unlimited flight speed. It should hit a 249km target within 5 seconds. It needs also to be immune to defenders. Maybe double the EHP of each missiles. Faction one's should also be cheaper. Range T2 should put more damage. maybe triple what they do now as faction seems better
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.13 02:03:00 - [234] Originally by: Von Kroll Look, the problems of scorch are a separate issue. I think a lot of people think scorch is unbalanced. And Mach/Vargurs are pirate boats, mega expensive, and not really relevant to what we're talking about here. Do we, as a community, want another "scorch" to complain about after CCP "tweaks" rails? Given that projectiles and lasers are pretty well balanced with each other atm, I'd say giving hybrids their own "scorch" isn't such a bad idea. The long range ammo for both lasers AND ACs have distinct uses., null just makes the blasters perform worse at ALL ranges than their energy turret counterparts. As far as crazy expensive matari ships go, they're the only ones with range bonuses. Even without them, 60km falloff is trivial and you still get insane range for a short ranged turret. Torps can also easily be spat out to 60km or so, so the point remains valid that it really isn't a problem to have a 30km optimal with blasters, using long range ammo, on a ship with the largest optimal range bonus in the game. Originally by: Von Kroll I have almost perfect hybrid skills--I've invested a lot of training into them, and I don't fly other ships, so I'm not biased here. All I'm saying is that we should all be careful what we wish for. The only people happy with Scorch are laser users (and some of them would even admit its potentially unbalanced) and everyone complains about what the last change did to projectiles. We could potentially see the same backlash after a hybrid buff--that's all I'm saying. People complain that lasers are OP. People complain that ACs are OP. People complain that blasters are UP. Were people complaining that blasters are OP, as with the other turrets, you could argue that the game is at least SOMEWHAT balanced, because there will always be people who think something is OP just because it's different. If CCP made changes to blasters that made people scream ZOMGBLASTERSAREOPPPPPPP! while still having people whine about scorch and still having people whine about the projectile buffs, then we'll know CCP did something right with blasters.
Aznwithbeard Minmatar OMGROFLSTOMP	Posted - 2011.05.13 03:07:00 - [235] Originally by: Lazer Bear From what i know blasters have been weak for a LOOONG LOOOOOOOONG time, and almost everyone agrees that they are the weakest weapon ingame and that it sucks Why ccp doesnt fix them then? Oh really? please tell me then what other race can have a T1 cruiser making over 800 dps? /thread. stop whining about blasters. theyre facemelting DPS. MWD+ scram + blasters = the end. Guns don't kill people. onowait.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.13 04:31:00 - [236] Originally by: Aznwithbeard Originally by: Lazer Bear From what i know blasters have been weak for a LOOONG LOOOOOOOONG time, and almost everyone agrees that they are the weakest weapon ingame and that it sucks Why ccp doesnt fix them then? Oh really? please tell me then what other race can have a T1 cruiser making over 800 dps? /thread. stop whining about blasters. theyre facemelting DPS. MWD+ scram + blasters = the end. 1)Show me this supposed 800 DPS cruiser. 2)The problem with blasters is that they only get a 10-15% damage increase over other guns, while having less than a third the range. It's a slight damage increase, definitely NOT facemelting DPS.
Songbird Gallente T.I.E. Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.13 04:56:00 - [237] I bet he means that thorax with 5 overheated blasters with void , 4 damage mods and 5 medium drones does 800 dps. Too bad that by the time it gets into it's 3.4km turret range it will be in hull :). Which is my point exactly: 0-5km range is not fleet range, because you'd spend most of your time going from 1 target to the next. The ships in close combat fleets need to have 25-45km range, which most sensible blaster fits don't. One look at the statistics gives us the picture: most popular weapon in eve is : heavy missile launcher. It's not that it has great damage - it just starts applying it's mediocre damage from 60km distance. I'm not sure if blasters are even in top 20 : So we have battle cruiser weapon with 60km range #1, battle cruiser weapon with 3km range - not in top 20* - I wonder what does that tell us? *I'm unable to find the statistic webpage - not sure if blasters weren't in the top 10 or top 20.
Voith	Posted - 2011.05.13 05:16:00 - [238] Edited by: Voith on 13/05/2011 05:21:08 Because they aren't on the ships of the two races CCP gives a ** about: Caldari and Minmatar. stop spamming this forum with your waste of time threads. If CCP wanted Hybrids to not suck they would have fixed them years ago. They didn't. Stop ing in the wind and train for Caldari or Winmatar like a good little boy in a "sandbox". Give the ** up and stop wasting time on these threads.
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.05.13 05:17:00 - [239] There is more to the hybrid issue than just blasters.
Cephelange du'Krevviq Caldari Seventh Exploration and Engagement Command	Posted - 2011.05.13 07:07:00 - [240] Edited by: Cephelange du''Krevviq on 13/05/2011 07:07:37 Originally by: Voith Edited by: Voith on 13/05/2011 05:21:08 Because they aren't on the ships of the two races CCP gives a ** about: Caldari and Minmatar. Since when do Caldari ships not use hybrids? Their ships generally get bonuses in either missiles or hybrid weapons. See: Merlin: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range per skill level Moa: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range per skill level Ferox: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range per skill level Rokh:** 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret optimal range per skill level

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