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GM Power abuse in Pirate Gatecamps

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Mynx La'Rue Royal Order of Security Specialists	Posted - 2011.04.06 07:34:00 - [1] Edited by: Mynx La''Rue on 06/04/2011 07:39:11 Hey guys, the reason i post it in this forum is simply because i didnt find a better one - and it seems to be fitting because it touches the areas of surely crime and also pvp. The reason i post it at all is that i would be interested in your opinion about the actions of the GM (reasonable or wrong) and maybe even an official statement cause my first ticket was shot down by the GM concerning this, the 2nd is unanswered. As a "disclaimer" maybe first a general word to the topic i wanted to open. Pirate (or all for this matter) gatecamps are not only competely ok in my eye, but also part of what makes the game great - freedom. That is not the point. The point is GMs influencing inGame events by abusing their power. Please read on. What happened ? The well known Amamake / Osoggur gate (spelling?) was camped on the LowSec side by pirate (as usual) which managed to get a nice whooping 99% of the ships flying through and about 90% of all pods - amazing how many ppl still dont know how to avoid getting podded in lowSec. The setups was as usual, a Smartbombing BS to kil pods and light ships warping to the gate from one side, T3s, BCs, Cynabals and other stuff sensor boosting to get ppl warping in from empire. As i said above, gatecamps are a part of the game and ppl who fly in this area really should know about this by now. PPL still flying in without either asking before jumping, taking the other way around of flying to the gate directly on 0 .. well ... NEARLY deserve to die. But watching in a cloaky 20 ppl dying with pods in under 10 minutes made me decide to help the helpless and annoy the pirates for i also at the point simply had the time to do it (on a sidenote, many ppl tried to battle the pirates especially on that gate to drive them off but having neutral alts on all gates and warping on safespots when the local count goes up but 1.2 made this nearly impossible). So i went with the alt of a friend and my char on both sides, and when a new player jumnped into system i informed him that the gate was camped by smartbombing pirates. Some ppl headed the warning, others (amazingly) still jumped in and (not really surprisingly) died - natural selection i guess. But ofc the pirates missed some nice juicy kills (several freighters and industrtials, also a marauder and other stuff listened, thansk me in local or by mail and went the other way / avoided this gate. The reaction was as expected, first insults by the pirates and their alts, then they actualy made a ticket for spamming and ... voila ... a GM named Horse appeared and gaged the character warning about the gatecamp on the empire side. This made me ... wtf ? An immediately triggered talk with the GM lead to nothing substantional and i got no answer about the rules of gagging (tiomes, repetitions, ...). The "Spamming" was writing the warning in local whenever someone new jumped in which went from once every 20-30s up to once a minute ot two. There was no question about botting for i was at the computer and immediately responding (also talking in local to some folks on empire side) so stripped down a character was gagged (forbidden to write into local) because he was warning other ppl about the gatecamp whenever someone jumped in. Try to discuss it without flaming please, but i really wonder what you think about a) the action of the GM and b) if the "spamming" policy in this case was really fitting. Eve is so great because oft the freedom it gives players on all sides. GMs acting on behalf of one side or the other that way is not only disturbing but makes me worry quite a bit. fly dangerous, Mynx
Kitty McKitty Gallente Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.04.06 07:48:00 - [2] Abuse of petitions is just as pro as gatecamping. Furthermore, I am certain that your side of the story is 100% unbiased so I couldn't possibly comment further. ~~~
Ifly Uwalk Caldari Empire Tax Collection Agency	Posted - 2011.04.06 08:05:00 - [3] If it really happened as you describe then the good GM Horse was obviously way out of line. I'm not seeing him gag anyone in Jita local.
Gentle Bra State War Academy	Posted - 2011.04.06 08:16:00 - [4] I ignored your irritating local spam.... then I got podded
Brusanan Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:09:00 - [5] Edited by: Brusanan on 06/04/2011 09:10:42 Edited by: Brusanan on 06/04/2011 09:09:07 <3 GM Horse. It's obvious here that your gag had nothing to do with the gatecamp. Spammers are annoying and all deserve to be gagged. And yes, I think GM Horse should take a trip to Jita. ______
Mynx La'Rue Royal Order of Security Specialists	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:13:00 - [6] Edited by: Mynx La''Rue on 06/04/2011 09:14:57 Thats not really the point. The point is simply, is it spamming to write a warning in local whenever someone new comes in so he dosnt fly blindly into a gatecamp ? Can a GM actually justify gagging someone warning others that they are flying into a trap - this is simply getting involved in inGame mechanics a GM has no right to get his hands in at all. And ofc this has to be seen in context of the gatecamp. And i expect a GM to see and judge the situation as a whole before taking actions.
Gibbo5771	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:14:00 - [7] I once "swore" in local and got gagged for 24 hours. Not allowed to say "crap" on the interwebs is funny, GMs suck
Brusanan Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Mynx La'Rue Thats not really the point. The point is simply, is it spamming to write a warning in local whenever someone new comes in so he dosnt fly blindly into a gatecamp ? And ofc this has to be seen in context of the gatecamp. And i expect a GM to see and judge the situation as a whole before taking actions. You were spamming. Spamming is spamming. It doesn't matter what your reason was, you were being obnoxious in local, someone petitioned it, and you got gagged for breaking the rules. ______
Soldarius Caldari Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:24:00 - [9] Pure *gotry on the part of petitioners. GM Horse is worse one for falling for an obvious abuse of petition system. The obvious solution to annoying spam is to block the offender, not petition. General Losers should HTFU instead of crying to GMs. Originally by:** CCP Shadow ...I cannot guarantee (my) sobriety or decency.
Dartauw Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Soldarius Pure ***gotry on the part of petitioners. GM Horse is worse one for falling for an obvious abuse of petition system. The obvious solution to annoying spam is to block the offender, not petition. General Losers should HTFU instead of crying to GMs. U mad.. Spaming up local for what ever noble reason is not cool, mmkay. The fact that someone used it to their advantage is just a bonus for them. We already have one Jita, and not even Jita wants to be Jita.
Azhpol Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:40:00 - [11] Originally by: Brusanan Originally by: Mynx La'Rue Thats not really the point. The point is simply, is it spamming to write a warning in local whenever someone new comes in so he dosnt fly blindly into a gatecamp ? And ofc this has to be seen in context of the gatecamp. And i expect a GM to see and judge the situation as a whole before taking actions. You were spamming. Spamming is spamming. It doesn't matter what your reason was, you were being obnoxious in local, someone petitioned it, and you got gagged for breaking the rules. Pretty sure we know who was running the camp with help of a GM friend Ever notice that while EVE has the spam reporting feature just like WoW, in eve its very specifically isk spammers, and if you use it to report someone spamming normally you can be banned? Sure sounds like spamming is against the official rules there
Dartauw Retired Pirate Club	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:46:00 - [12] Just to add some actual content to the tread: I've had random people at our gatecamp, warning travelers of the camp. Some stayed an hour after getting popped, some made it their mission in EvE to stop us by warning our clientFle. One noob got popped and hung around for a week, waring to our gate at random ranges, getting popped and poded repeatedly and talking crap in local. The only time a GM was ever involved and directly intervened was when the "white knight" would loose patience from seeing all the lemmings jump in regardless and started spaming local.
Brusanan Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:47:00 - [13] Originally by: Azhpol Pretty sure we know who was running the camp with help of a GM friend Ever notice that while EVE has the spam reporting feature just like WoW, in eve its very specifically isk spammers, and if you use it to report someone spamming normally you can be banned? Sure sounds like spamming is against the official rules there How many things are there that can get you gagged/banned in Eve, and how many have an option in the right click menu? Even if there is no "Report Spammer" option in the right click menu, the EULA still has rules against spamming. They added the "Report ISK Spammer" function because isk spammers need to be dealt with quickly, and without requiring GM intervention. Everything else is less urgent, and can wait for a normal petition to be filed. ______
Valkyriane Blood Money Inc. The Blood Money Cartel	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:53:00 - [14] Gatecamping with a blobb and bubbles are for people who don¦t have balls or/and skills to fight fair agains others... Most of alls, they are not pirates!
Icer Xx Tempest Legion	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:56:00 - [15] Let's be honest, our GM's are scrubs that havn't registered on the game, let alone play the game. Comparing our GM to a competent manager of anything other than horse dung, is like comparing goonswarm to neurosurgeons.
Awesome Possum Original Sin. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS	Posted - 2011.04.06 10:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Dartauw Originally by: Soldarius Pure ***gotry on the part of petitioners. GM Horse is worse one for falling for an obvious abuse of petition system. The obvious solution to annoying spam is to block the offender, not petition. General Losers should HTFU instead of crying to GMs. U mad.. Spaming up local for what ever noble reason is not cool, mmkay. The fact that someone used it to their advantage is just a bonus for them. We already have one Jita, and not even Jita wants to be Jita. you're a whiner ♥
Jak'rat	Posted - 2011.04.06 10:14:00 - [17] Originally by: Mynx La'Rue The "Spamming" was writing the warning in local ... every 20-30s That'd be spam, yes. That'd also make the local channel un-usable for everyone else since you turned it into your private crusade platform. So yeah, that could warrant a gag especially if people were asking you to shut up and you carried on. As someone else said - we don't know the whole story. Personally, I'd have just blocked not reported, but if I was living in that system mining or missioning it'd **** me off to just see "oh noes, I lost my shipz do not loose urs" every half minute. Let them jump. Let them learn.
Mynx La'Rue Royal Order of Security Specialists	Posted - 2011.04.06 11:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Jak'rat Originally by: Mynx La'Rue The "Spamming" was writing the warning in local ... every 20-30s That'd be spam, yes. That'd also make the local channel un-usable for everyone else since you turned it into your private crusade platform. So yeah, that could warrant a gag especially if people were asking you to shut up and you carried on. As someone else said - we don't know the whole story. Your making it sound a bit to easy and also simplyfy it too much. a) I said i posted the warning into the channel whenever a new pilot came in, which was between min 20-30s and max once a minute or two. b) i was neither **ed nor angry, i havnt lost a ship in those gatecamps for over 6 month now (you can check the Heretic Army board), the reason i warned ppl was simply out of the goodof my heart. As strange as it may ound in eve. Well .. and to of the pirates a bit, yes. c) LowSec side there was ofc a constant flow of personal insults, comments of my sexual preferences and relationship with my mother as the pirates tried to insult me beeing angry loosing money. But there, and also on the other (HighSec) side only Pirates (on 2 alts watching the gate for the Pilots on Osoggur site) complained and tried to outspam me (everytime i wrote a warning spamming "lols" etc). I checked every comment in locals, from anyone without pirate relation i got thanks and good jobs as tells and statements. Also posting a single warning in local every 20s to 2 minutes dosnt make the local unusable. The problem is simply, where to you draw the line ? The GM simply let the pirates use him and his powers to use inGame goals. Which is clearly wrong. I asked him .. howmany ppl per minute can i warn to not be vien as a spammer ? Where he gave me no answer cause "if he told me that theres potential to abuse" - excuse me ? I asked him if it would change something if i spoke to everyone in system seperately like "Marok in Merlin, DONT jump into Amamake, gate is camped" and his answer was .. "no, this is still spamming." This is just rediculous. I remember a Gag put on Goonfleet after they invaded some systems and where spamming German 2rd Reich paroles all over local. This Gag was even reversed and stated it was a mistake. But warning ppl is ? Is a conversation between 3 PPL over local a SPAM which can end in a gag ? ofc they can use tells, mails or feetchat, but what if they dont ? Someone who gives enemy positions for a fleet over local constandly following the enemy because hes not in a fleet but wants to do something. Gag ? The matter is by far not as easy as you make it sound, and the risk for abuse is simply immense. What is the Spamming policy for ? Jita and ISK Spammers ? They are constandly going on in Rens, Jita and Co without a ban. Scams posted every 30s in local ? "OMG i leave the game and double all money, ssend me 1 million and i send 2 back..." - even those dont get gaged. But intel as a warning over local for pilots fresh warped in are ? Seriously ... ;) Originally by:** Jak'rat it'd **** me off to just see "oh noes, I lost my shipz do not loose urs" every half minute. Let them jump. Let them learn. As i said, i never lost a ship. Which is still beside the point. But EVE is a sandbox game where freedom of action is written in capital letters. You can kill whomever you like. You can scam ppl if they are stupid enough. You can betray your friends and dissolve whole alliances, stealing their stuff. But you cant warn ppl not to fly into a trap without a GM gagging you ? Dont you see the pickle here ?
iCaldari	Posted - 2011.04.06 11:28:00 - [19] I vouch this. Ive had the same exact problem and it was also in amamake. Its really stupid why the ** would we be gagged when all we're doing is warning people for not going through that gate?? Like, its all part of the game, if the pirates dont want me to say something in local , then DEAL WITH IT or GTFO. The local chat is eve, and if gms dont want this kind of situations to be available, then take the local chat out of eve, and stop being ing idiots gagging that dont spam!! Its not like Im spamming a contract to sell every in minute just as everyone does in Jita, however they are not gagged!! WTF IS THIS **??
Misunderstood Genius	Posted - 2011.04.06 11:31:00 - [20] Originally by: Jak'rat Originally by: Mynx La'Rue The "Spamming" was writing the warning in local ... every 20-30s That'd be spam, yes. That'd also make the local channel un-usable for everyone else since you turned it into your private crusade platform. So yeah, that could warrant a gag especially if people were asking you to shut up and you carried on. As someone else said - we don't know the whole story. Personally, I'd have just blocked not reported, but if I was living in that system mining or missioning it'd **** me off to just see "oh noes, I lost my shipz do not loose urs" every half minute. Let them jump. Let them learn. For what is local useful finally? You think that keeping local informed about a gate camp is spamming? I could also define that the gate camp is spamming the gate and makes it unusable for other players. As long as this is a MMORPG and ships and stuff have a real value in time, ISK and RL money it should be more than legal that one or more player warn other players about losing stuff. Because this is a total different intension compared to the usual SCAM. Due to ppl jumping in and out all the time you have to drop a message all the time to get sure that they will read it. OFC the "gate camp lobby" wants to call this as spam because it sucks when a ppl takes the time to keep others informed and make their lol game boring and useless. To call a GM - and probably a "friendly GM" - for this is the typical reaction of such type of guys who like to gank all the time and can't accept that this game is a multiplayer game with the possibility to role play or communicate. I would petition this and escalate to a Senior GM teaching GM Horse the rules.
admiral fovios Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.04.06 12:00:00 - [21] Edited by: admiral fovios on 06/04/2011 12:02:40 Originally by: Jak'rat That'd be spam, yes. That'd also make the local channel un-usable for everyone else since you turned it into your private crusade platform. What are the other uses for local? Outside of trade hubs (where real spam occurs), it's basically unused. Edit: Also, the GMs actions betray his true intentions. The simple solution is tell the "spammer" what he's doing is considered spam, rather than insta-gagging. The fact that a gag was step one is unreasonable, and quite suggestive that GM Horse did not have the noblest intentions.
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.04.06 12:06:00 - [22] Edited by: Barakkus on 06/04/2011 12:07:16 They're only going to respond to petitions, they won't be visiting Jita to shut people on a whim up because people are trying to "sell" ****. I think they should just make Jita local not work, but probably won't happen. Probably won't visit Jita for a petition about spamming either because they would never get any other petition answered having to go there to mute thousands of people all the time. Would be nice though if they just removed local from Jita, Rens and Ammar :P You should not be spamming the same message every 20 seconds or whatever it was, it was probably excessive. Just anchor a can and name it "this gate is camped on the other side" or something if you really want to warn people and leave it at that. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
TipsyMcStagger Caldari Spruillo WarDec Corp	Posted - 2011.04.06 12:07:00 - [23] Edited by: TipsyMcStagger on 06/04/2011 12:08:14 IBTL Obviously one of the pirate camp was gm alt. GM's dont just show up insystem and gag ppl for 'spamming'. If they do it's not consistent enough for me to ever believe it's not biased.
Poisona Buccaneer Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.04.06 12:10:00 - [24] Originally by: Mynx La'Rue Edited by: Mynx La''Rue on 06/04/2011 07:39:11 So i went with the alt of a friend and my char on both sides, and when a new player jumnped into system i informed him that the gate was camped by smartbombing pirates. Mynx See Mynx La'Rue its people like you that pirates hate plus what do you get out of it by telling peopld whats hiding on the other side. Pirate's fuel the carebear market in a good chunk. Stay in empire where you belong mate and go 'back to jita.....kid'
Prince Spiderman	Posted - 2011.04.06 12:15:00 - [25] Originally by: admiral fovios Edited by: admiral fovios on 06/04/2011 12:02:40 Originally by: Jak'rat That'd be spam, yes. That'd also make the local channel un-usable for everyone else since you turned it into your private crusade platform. What are the other uses for local? Outside of trade hubs (where real spam occurs), it's basically unused. Don't let us discuss about high-sec local. It's too complex, bizzar, hilarious and different all the time. Low-sec local is used for smack, noob and pirate tears, epeen, gf??? Best tears are pirate tears. The taste is disgusting and your pee is burning like hell after drinking them. If the story is true then it's nothing new in EVE. Pirates can't lose and playing dirty by abusing a petition or a friendly GM makes sense. That's their style to play. Killing is fine. Losing is like: "You and your falcon are pathtic." "Go and learn real PvP." "You just suck because you fail." "Without your two more accounts you are nothing." ... you wanna hear more about local bull like this? The GM should be perma-banned to a calling center.
0Lona 0ltor	Posted - 2011.04.06 12:28:00 - [26] Set up an Ammake player chat? and drop a high sec box advertising it at the gate. Ie Ammake <---->Varus Intel Anti Pirate Channel. Create warnings in there and you can automate them with the just joined info. You can also ban corps doing the pirating but not their alts.
MrWhitei God Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E	Posted - 2011.04.06 12:46:00 - [27] You could always personalise the message next time with char names your trying to help, instead of the copy,paste same text. tbh tho. Im surprised you got petitioned and very surprised you got gagged
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.04.06 12:47:00 - [28] Non shocker, GMs are terrible and play favorites. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators Hell's Hide-Out	Posted - 2011.04.06 12:55:00 - [29] Convo target and privatley warn them SKUNK (o)
Mynx La'Rue Royal Order of Security Specialists	Posted - 2011.04.06 13:00:00 - [30] I have ofc opened another ticket and tried to escalate the situation to the next level, but got no response to it so far. What is important for me right now, is especially to hear what the rest of the community thinks about it. Simply because the potential for abuse is immense, and the use of GM powers for s special cause - either because the GM is willingand personally sympathising of one side, or just naiv - hurts the EVE system greatly. Originally by: Poisona Buccaneer See Mynx La'Rue its people like you that pirates hate plus what do you get out of it by telling peopld whats hiding on the other side. Pirate's fuel the carebear market in a good chunk. Stay in empire where you belong mate and go 'back to jita.....kid' That comment actually made me smile quite a lot. Above is the sum of desperate justifing something that dosnt needs to be justivied. Pirating is a way of lifestyle in EVE, as justified and good or evil then 0.0 Warfare, Merc Work, Mission Running or Faction Warfare. Everyone carves out his personal playground out of the sandbox he enjoys. And ofc everyone dislikes other factions ... a pirate moans about a carebear complaining he got suicide ganked. Or ppl dont like Pandemic Legion because of them using HAC or Tengu fleets to destroy their beloved sniperfleets. Or hate the Goons. Or the other Faction in Faction Warfare because they are blobbing. Again, thats not the point m8. Ofc those pirates at the gate where **ed because i warned several juicy kills they missed. Thats part of the game. As its part of the game they cought some of the other guys jumping through. Your futile and childish attempts to insult in your posting while yourself beeing pro are exactly that. futile and childish. And far from the topic. I myself am active way over a year in Faction Warfare and was active in PVP before that, finding myself basically never in HighSec at all, home in Auga and fighting every day. But what is real PVP? The Faction Warfare i do? Sitting all day on a gate killing single targets and warping immediately to a safespot warned by alts whenever something comes in that can be a danger to me? 0.0 Blob warfare with several hundret ships on every side ? Roaming PVP in medium or small groups or even solo searching fights? It dosnt matter. Its EVE, you play your way and talks about who is 1337, l33ter and the l33test are just philosophical at best, **ed most of the time. Pirates use the system to their advantage, they shouldnt cry if someone else uses it the same way. Pirates stimulate the market as do wars, carebears deliver ships without no war would be possible. PPl like me use other forms of pvp and enjoy the benefits of both sides (pirates give me things to shoot beside the normal wartargets and carebears deliver the hardware). Wanna on one side or the other ? Why ? The system only works cause everything works perfectly together. Its not about playstyles and who has the longest and coolest. Its about GMs using their power to influence game mechanics for one side or the other. Originally by:** Prince Spiderman Best tears are pirate tears. ... That's their style to play. Killing is fine. But losing is a "NO WAY" option followed by typical local quotes like: "You and your 1.000 Falcons and Logistics are pathetic." "Go and learn real PvP." "You just suck because you would fail without your blob." "Without your two more accounts you are nothing." ... you wanna hear more about local bull like this from a 10 men camp using 4 Scimitars or Guardians plus pre-placed probes all the time? There is a special kind of pirates for that but yes, this is so very true. There are exception ofc but especially the kind of pirates who are taking no risks at all tend to act this way.

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