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Mynx La'Rue
Royal Order of Security Specialists
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:03:00 -
[31]
Originally by: MrWhitei God You could always personalise the message next time with char names your trying to help, instead of the copy,paste same text.
tbh tho. Im surprised you got petitioned and very surprised you got gagged
I actually asked the GM if this would mnake any difference .... if i warn the new player personally telling him "Mr.OMGFreighterFUllOfGold, dont jump into Amamake, the gate is camped" but his clear answer was "no, it dosnt change anything its still considered spamming".
Tbh i was quite surprised about both things also m8, especially the 2nd. And while i actually really enjoyed the TICs trying to insult me and emoraging in local the thing i am ****ed is the abuse of powers by the gm.
And the danger therein.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators Hell's Hide-Out
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:05:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Mynx La'Rue
What is important for me right now, is especially to hear what the rest of the community thinks about it. Simply because the potential for abuse is immense, and the use of GM powers for s special cause - either because the GM is willingand personally sympathising of one side, or just naiv - hurts the EVE system greatly.
Seriously, get your alt back into the system and spam local chat trying to get people INTO lowsec (thus assisting the pirates)
I will petition you for spam, you will be gagged *again* and there will be no basis for suggesting Horse was pirate biased as he would have gagged any spamming, both one who was hindering and one who was helping the pirates.
Very simple test, though you will have to abandon your indignant crusade of righteousness which may be damaging for your self image.
SKUNK (o)
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Dartauw
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:18:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Barakkus Just anchor a can and name it "this gate is camped on the other side" or something if you really want to warn people and leave it at that.
This man gets it. You won't be stopped for relaying information about a gate camp, but you will get gaged for spaming if you warn people by spaming.
OP is starting to reach for straws and for every second of GM's time he's waisting on this the less sympathy he gets from me. If you really feel that the GM is misusing his power, contact Internal Affairs.
Also, why isn't this thread locked for discussing petitions?
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Dartauw
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:21:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: Dartauw
Originally by: Soldarius Pure ***gotry on the part of petitioners. GM Horse is worse one for falling for an obvious abuse of petition system.
The obvious solution to annoying spam is to block the offender, not petition. General Losers should HTFU instead of crying to GMs.
U mad..
Spaming up local for what ever noble reason is not cool, mmkay. The fact that someone used it to their advantage is just a bonus for them.
We already have one Jita, and not even Jita wants to be Jita.
you're a whiner
This doesn't even feel like a genuine insult, more like when a 12 year old is trying to get the attention of a girl by pulling her hair.
Thanks for the attention, but I'm, happily married.
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Ezekeil Rage
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:22:00 -
[35]
I think the most pertinent topic to take from this is the nebulous, inexact definition of spamming. We can be breaking the rules w/o knowing exactly what the rules are! ------------------------------------------------------ Shadow-war - you should click this link |
Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:32:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Barakkus Edited by: Barakkus on 06/04/2011 12:07:16 They're only going to respond to petitions, they won't be visiting Jita to shut people on a whim up because people are trying to "sell" ****. I think they should just make Jita local not work, but probably won't happen. Probably won't visit Jita for a petition about spamming either because they would never get any other petition answered having to go there to mute thousands of people all the time. Would be nice though if they just removed local from Jita, Rens and Ammar :P
You should not be spamming the same message every 20 seconds or whatever it was, it was probably excessive. Just anchor a can and name it "this gate is camped on the other side" or something if you really want to warn people and leave it at that.
An anchored can could have been there for months. The gag is out of order. If it annoyed people, how about using the block feature? As for Jita, lol. It's amusing that it's not ok to warn people about imminent death, but the GMs are so ****ing useless that Jita is left to rot under 15 tons of **** spam? ffs, the inconsistency is diabolical. And par for the course.
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Diesel47
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Posted - 2011.04.06 13:32:00 -
[37]
Just goes to show what kinda noobs gatecamp all day.
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Misunderstood Genius
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:06:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/04/2011 13:00:12 Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/04/2011 12:56:11 Convo target and privatley warn them.
If a pirate was to have his alt in highsec spamming "OMG GET INTO AMMAKE, THERE IS A SANSHA MOTHERSHIP IN HULL" every time a pilot jumped into the high sec system in an effort to tempt them into lowsec, he would be gagged in the same way you were gagged spamming in order to PREVENT people jumping into lowsec.
So no favoratism... just Spamming is bad.
SKUNK
You losers are so creative in finding crap arguments. Your try would be comparable to SCAM because you are spamming bullsh*t in local to cheat players losing their stuff while warning about a gate camp is a real situation on the other side to keep players safe from an existing trap. But I doubt that ppl like you want or will understand the simple difference. "Back to hide in station when your guys log... kid!"
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:10:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Chesty McJubblies
Originally by: Barakkus Edited by: Barakkus on 06/04/2011 12:07:16 They're only going to respond to petitions, they won't be visiting Jita to shut people on a whim up because people are trying to "sell" ****. I think they should just make Jita local not work, but probably won't happen. Probably won't visit Jita for a petition about spamming either because they would never get any other petition answered having to go there to mute thousands of people all the time. Would be nice though if they just removed local from Jita, Rens and Ammar :P
You should not be spamming the same message every 20 seconds or whatever it was, it was probably excessive. Just anchor a can and name it "this gate is camped on the other side" or something if you really want to warn people and leave it at that.
An anchored can could have been there for months. The gag is out of order. If it annoyed people, how about using the block feature? As for Jita, lol. It's amusing that it's not ok to warn people about imminent death, but the GMs are so ****ing useless that Jita is left to rot under 15 tons of **** spam? ffs, the inconsistency is diabolical. And par for the course.
I'd rather have them answering petitions than sitting in Jita all the time to mute thousands of people non stop. There's a finite number of GMs, and their time is better spent answering petitions than moderating Jita. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Theodoric Darkwind
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:24:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Soldarius Pure ***gotry on the part of petitioners. GM Horse is worse one for falling for an obvious abuse of petition system.
The obvious solution to annoying spam is to block the offender, not petition. General Losers should HTFU instead of crying to GMs.
Pretty much, if I were the OP I would address this with Internal Affairs, reeks of GM favoritism. Warning people about a gate camp does not = spamming. Of course you would think people would just automatically assume the Ossugur>Amamake gate is camped most of the time but they still jump in.
There really and truly is no reason to ever go into Amamake, if you really need to get into metropolis lowsec there are other less camped entry points, Resbroko and Otou tend to not be camped much but Hagilur is camped fairly often, and there are other even more roundabout ways of getting into metropolis lowsec.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators Hell's Hide-Out
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:24:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/04/2011 14:25:05
Originally by: Misunderstood Genius
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/04/2011 13:00:12 Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/04/2011 12:56:11 Convo target and privatley warn them.
If a pirate was to have his alt in highsec spamming "OMG GET INTO AMMAKE, THERE IS A SANSHA MOTHERSHIP IN HULL" every time a pilot jumped into the high sec system in an effort to tempt them into lowsec, he would be gagged in the same way you were gagged spamming in order to PREVENT people jumping into lowsec.
So no favoratism... just Spamming is bad.
SKUNK
You losers are so creative in finding crap arguments. Your try would be comparable to SCAM because you are spamming bullsh*t in local to cheat players losing their stuff while warning about a gate camp is a real situation on the other side to keep players safe from an existing trap. But I doubt that ppl like you want or will understand the simple difference. "Back to hide in station when your guys log... kid!"
Well firstly its not illegal to scam so thats your main point out the window.
But the scenario i present can be expanded to cover your misgivings.
1) I can sit in a higsec system and warn of a non exsisting gate camp. DO NOT JUMP INTO ZINKON THERE IS A GATE CAMP THERE!!!!!! After a while, GM horse will come into system and gag me for spamming. This aids nobody and shows no favouritism as there was no gate camp in the first place.
GM Horse simply stopped me spamming local.
2) I can spot a faction rat in a belt in a camped low sec system, and pop next door into highsec and spam local with "THERE IS A FACTION RAT IN THE BELT NEXT DOOR!!!!". Pilots going into lowsec would be popped by the camp, but at no point was I lying about a faction rat. After a while GM horse will come into system and gag me for spamming. This actualy HINDERS the pirates and refutes the OPs agruments that the GMs are biased.
GM Horse simply stopped me spamming local.
3) The OP sits in local and shouts THERE IS A CAMP NEXT DOOR every 45 seconds as new people arrive. After a while, GM horse arrives in local and gags him for spamming. This helped the pirates.
GM Horse simply stopped him spamming local.
In All Cases The Message In local was irrelevant. Who profitied from the spamming was irrelevant. The repetitive spamming WAS REVLEANT and resulted rightly in a gag
SKUNK (o)
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Lady Go Diveher
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:34:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Lady Go Diveher on 06/04/2011 14:40:15 Edited by: Lady Go Diveher on 06/04/2011 14:37:24 OP:
Whether you're for or against lowsec PVP / piracy, what you are doing is actually spamming in the local channel to prevent the legitimate use of others of a gameplay tactic.
Your "good deed" benefits one group by removing benefits from the other.
Players have hundreds of ways of knowing danger is ahead. If they don't, their loss. They're ****ing idiots.
'Spamming' into Jita/Amarr local your sell/buy orders, 'legitimate' or not, is also legitimate gameplay and should not be removed. Users are able to block this, should they not wish to see it.
Therefore, what you were doing is spamming pointlessly and the GM was exactly right.
EDIT: no you were not warning freighters / Marauders and other high-cost & skill ships/pilots. You were 'saving' a few shuttles / noobships and plucky haulers. Loading Amamake on battleclinic will show this to be true. Don't big-up yourself. EDIT2: Please show me all the freighter kills from where you were gagged and thus unable to warn.
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Ezekeil Rage
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:41:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Therefore, what you were doing is spamming pointlessly and the GM was exactly right.
Whether what she was doing was pointless or productive is immaterial to the subject. Whether it was for the benefit or hindrance of others, is also immaterial. The important thing from all of this, is that the rules for what exactly is construed as "spam" seems to be arbitrarily determined, if what was told is truthful and accurate.
I wouldn't consider messages directed towards individuals in local to be spam. I wouldn't consider a varying message every 30s in local spam. The same message, typed in exactly the same manner, at precise intervals in rapid succession, causing instant screen scroll - I would consider spam.
What we should try and get out of this are precise definitions. Otherwise, how can we avoid breaking rules? ------------------------------------------------------ Shadow-war - you should click this link |
Lucas Quaan
Rens 911 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:42:00 -
[44]
This is interesting. I was in Amamake for a while last night when this was going on and in my opinion it was definitely not spam. If indeed even typing personal messages would have had the same outcome, this then begs the question what local is for in the first place.
If it is a policy to arbitrarily gag people without warning, they should probably clarify this with a defined limit of how many lines per minute you are allowed to say. Looking at my logs, I have personally had conversations in other local channels that clearly exceeded the frequency of the case at hand, unless of course here the message itself was considered objectionable.
It would benefit us all to have some answers on this issue, but more importantly to free karttoon.
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Lady Go Diveher
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:46:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Ezekeil Rage Whether what she was doing was pointless or productive is immaterial to the subject. Whether it was for the benefit or hindrance of others, is also immaterial. The important thing from all of this, is that the rules for what exactly is construed as "spam" seems to be arbitrarily determined
As it should be. Case by case basis is the only way to deal with something like this.
OP was clearly trying to stop someone else (the pirates) playing the game by her actions. The EULA is clear on how this sits.
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Fearless Femme
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:49:00 -
[46]
Most of you are idiots and completely illogical. Suppose the OP had simply carried on a conversation with someone in local chat. A very long one. Is that spamming? No. Spamming local doesn't refer to most of what is going on in Jita or, by your own logic, it would be stopped. For the previous poster, if the issue were legitimate game play, then the OP could have sat in local typing 'OMG' every 20 secs and it wouldn't be spam, so you can shut up now. Spamming local is when those people (often in Jita) post big blocks of images in endless series so that no one can even read local and which serves no purpose at all.
So OP, put the GMs to the test. Go into that system again. In local, have a conversation with someone, anyone, an alt, yourself, God, whoever. Just keep using your key phrase "smart bomb gate camp in [system name]" over and over during the conversation. "Did you see that *phrase*, Other Guy?" "have you ever had to jump into a camp like *phrase*?" and so on. If you've got an alt or a buddy, no one can complain.
btw to the ***hole who petitioned you, if your gameplay style is so weak that all it takes to make it useless is local chat, you're an idiot. |
Ezekeil Rage
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:55:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher As it should be. Case by case basis is the only way to deal with something like this.
OP was clearly trying to stop someone else (the pirates) playing the game by her actions. The EULA is clear on how this sits.
I disagree with both points.
1) The policy in place for the particulars of what defines "spam" needs to be made public. Legislation should not be arbitrarily enforced. Ever.
2) By that logic, any hindrance to the way another person plays the game is disallowed. Miner's may no longer have fear of operating in null sec space, as pirates are no longer allowed to stop them from playing the game. The pirates in this case had the freedom to do whatever they wanted still, OP just operated in opposition - which is both desirable and encouraged.
You can't have it both ways. You can't agree that the reason for what she was doing was immaterial, then declare it be against the EULA and also say that enforcement needs to be discretionary when the reason doesn't factor into the issue at hand. ------------------------------------------------------ Shadow-war - you should click this link |
Icer Xx
Tempest Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:58:00 -
[48]
Spamming isn't even a major concern of the GM's. Spamming is not mentioned in the EULA in any way shape or form, and is out of the jurisdiction of members attemptiong to regulate that.
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Aiwha
Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:59:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Brusanan
Originally by: Mynx La'Rue Thats not really the point. The point is simply, is it spamming to write a warning in local whenever someone new comes in so he dosnt fly blindly into a gatecamp ?
And ofc this has to be seen in context of the gatecamp. And i expect a GM to see and judge the situation as a whole before taking actions.
You were spamming. Spamming is spamming. It doesn't matter what your reason was, you were being obnoxious in local, someone petitioned it, and you got gagged for breaking the rules.
Guess who? The pirates who's parade he was raining on.
There's no such thing as overkill, only degrees of effectiveness. |
Lucas Quaan
Rens 911 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2011.04.06 14:59:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher Whether you're for or against lowsec PVP / piracy, what you are doing is actually spamming in the local channel to prevent the legitimate use of others of a gameplay tactic.
Your "good deed" benefits one group by removing benefits from the other.
Players have hundreds of ways of knowing danger is ahead. If they don't, their loss. They're ****ing idiots.
'Spamming' into Jita/Amarr local your sell/buy orders, 'legitimate' or not, is also legitimate gameplay and should not be removed. Users are able to block this, should they not wish to see it.
Therefore, what you were doing is spamming pointlessly and the GM was exactly right.
I'm afraid I must point out an inconsistency to your argument here. There is nothing inherently different in relaying, as it where, "intel" or promoting your contracts. Both are considered legitimate gameplay and thus allowable under local chat rules. Furthermore, neither prevents legitimate gameplay for any other parties, such as the pirates on the gate or your competitors in the contract market. The only aspect that would push either into spam would be the frequency with which they are posted.
One could then argue, like the OP, that every new member entering local chat would be a new audience for the message and thus warrant a repetition thereof. If there is somehow an official policy with regards to this, it would behove us all to free karttoon.
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Misunderstood Genius
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Posted - 2011.04.06 15:00:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Misunderstood Genius on 06/04/2011 15:06:03 I recognize a white shark near the beach and I am spamming local all the time with my megaphone: "DO NOT GO INTO WATER! THERE'S A SHARK!" I recognize a white shark near the beach, dropped a red ball into the water before and I am spamming local all the time with my megaphone: "THE ONES WHO'S PICKING UP MY SON'S BALL WILL RECEIVE 10 BUCKS FOR IT!"
In both cases a public officer will force me to shut up for voice spamming the people. That makes sense indeed.
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Velocity Prime
Misfit Toys Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2011.04.06 15:01:00 -
[52]
I think the real question here is, when are CCP going to stop hiring ******s to be GM's?
Smuggling, booster sales, recruitment. Visit my blog. |
Icer Xx
Tempest Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.06 15:21:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Velocity Prime I think the real question here is, when are CCP going to stop hiring ******s to be GM's?
Probably when the only people that apply stop being ******s.
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Lady Go Diveher
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Posted - 2011.04.06 15:55:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Ezekeil Rage
1) The policy in place for the particulars of what defines "spam" needs to be made public. Legislation should not be arbitrarily enforced. Ever.
Challenge for you - write the rule. Write it, post it here, and I will show you ways it can be manipulated to the advantage of those seeking to break it. Who then have written evidence they're 'right' or 'misinformed.' There's a reason why GM's correspondence is banned and this is it.
Quote: 2) By that logic, any hindrance to the way another person plays the game is disallowed. Miner's may no longer have fear of operating in null sec space, as pirates are no longer allowed to stop them from playing the game. The pirates in this case had the freedom to do whatever they wanted still, OP just operated in opposition - which is both desirable and encouraged.
She did not, however, operate in opposition using ANY gameplay mechanic available. She simply spammed it up to stop others playing the game. Miners have many ways of doing the above safely within the game, using chat to manipulate to their advantage is not one of them.
I've bolded the part that is just your personal opinion and should have zero bearing on any decision.
Out of context example: 'Market PVP'
Case a: 2 players are in a buy / sell war over Hurricanes in Amarr. Both use all the gameplay elements to their advantage, both player skill and market skills.
Case b: 2 players are in a buy / sell war over Hurricanes in Amarr. One player uses gameplay elements to their advantage. The other player spams local with stories of projectile nerfs and "OMG THE PRICE IS ALREADY FALLING SELL FAST!" every 20-30 seconds to try to influence the price.
One is clearly intended by CCP, the other not.
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Misunderstood Genius
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Posted - 2011.04.06 16:01:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Ezekeil Rage
1) The policy in place for the particulars of what defines "spam" needs to be made public. Legislation should not be arbitrarily enforced. Ever.
Challenge for you - write the rule. Write it, post it here, and I will show you ways it can be manipulated to the advantage of those seeking to break it. Who then have written evidence they're 'right' or 'misinformed.' There's a reason why GM's correspondence is banned and this is it.
Quote: 2) By that logic, any hindrance to the way another person plays the game is disallowed. Miner's may no longer have fear of operating in null sec space, as pirates are no longer allowed to stop them from playing the game. The pirates in this case had the freedom to do whatever they wanted still, OP just operated in opposition - which is both desirable and encouraged.
She did not, however, operate in opposition using ANY gameplay mechanic available. She simply spammed it up to stop others playing the game. Miners have many ways of doing the above safely within the game, using chat to manipulate to their advantage is not one of them.
I've bolded the part that is just your personal opinion and should have zero bearing on any decision.
Out of context example: 'Market PVP'
Case a: 2 players are in a buy / sell war over Hurricanes in Amarr. Both use all the gameplay elements to their advantage, both player skill and market skills.
Case b: 2 players are in a buy / sell war over Hurricanes in Amarr. One player uses gameplay elements to their advantage. The other player spams local with stories of projectile nerfs and "OMG THE PRICE IS ALREADY FALLING SELL FAST!" every 20-30 seconds to try to influence the price.
One is clearly intended by CCP, the other not.
Funny is: CCP will not care about this but GM Daddy will appear in Ossogur local, where is usually silence to gag one player trying to warn about a camp.
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Firebolt145
The Hatchery
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Posted - 2011.04.06 16:04:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Firebolt145 on 06/04/2011 16:04:42 Whether or not this is considered 'spamming', I don't know. But imo the GM was a bit trigger-happy; best course of action would be to warn you first.
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Rorschach Hunter
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.06 16:43:00 -
[57]
If your messages are the only thing in Local, and you keep spewing them every minute, then YES you're a spammer. I blocked you because page after page of exactly the same sentence was getting ruddy annoying, somebody else obviously got more offended or decided to get at you using the ammunition you provided.
Maybe you got harshly done, but it's kind of funny that you're so indignant about getting slapped down when you're so convinced you were playing the White Knight - while the stories of what the GM did / said are getting more wild every time you post.
And yeah, people chat in Local channels. Maybe not all the time but if you live in a system you get to see the same names, start up rambling chats while you mine, or mission (or gate camp for that matter). Difference being you could be having a long conversation that is "blocking" Local, but anyone can join in and the conversation evolves. Hard to join in with a wall of repeat text.
As somebody said, just park a can there. "This gate is often camped by pirates". Or if you're really wetting yourself to be some kind of instant-relay information hero, start a live updates intel channel and leave a can with the name. Job done.
Rorsch
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Zen Sins
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Posted - 2011.04.06 17:00:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Challenge for you - write the rule. Write it, post it here, and I will show you ways it can be manipulated to the advantage of those seeking to break it. Who then have written evidence they're 'right' or 'misinformed.' There's a reason why GM's correspondence is banned and this is it.
That's an interesting challenge and I look forward to seeing attempts to define "spam". I think it's a bit like one of the US Supreme Ct. Justices who is paraphrased as saying, "I don't know how to define ****ography, but I know it when I see it." It's up to the GMs to make that call on spam. Once you define it, griefers will delight in custom-tailoring spam that falls outside of the definition, but clearly IS spam.
Also, as to the subject of warning... A warning invites debate, which invites argument, and would probably just inflame the situation. Temp gags for 10-30 minutes or even an hour are such a light punishment that they almost ARE warnings.
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Awesome Possum
Original Sin. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
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Posted - 2011.04.06 17:02:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Jak'rat
Originally by: Mynx La'Rue
The "Spamming" was writing the warning in local ... every 20-30s
That'd be spam, yes. That'd also make the local channel un-usable for everyone else since you turned it into your private crusade platform. So yeah, that could warrant a gag especially if people were asking you to shut up and you carried on. As someone else said - we don't know the whole story.
Personally, I'd have just blocked not reported, but if I was living in that system mining or missioning it'd **** me off to just see "oh noes, I lost my shipz do not loose urs" every half minute. Let them jump. Let them learn.
no, typing something in local every 20-30s isn't spam. ♥
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Aaron Aardvark
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.06 17:09:00 -
[60]
If what the OP did is considered spamming then I see lots of people that I should petition every day. Can a GM clarify how long a gap is needed between messages? |
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