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bR Fortuna
Muppet Factory
Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.04.06 18:48:00 -
[1]
I'm on the verge of purchasing a mothership. At first I was 100% about the Nyx. Then I started to also consider the Aeon. Im posting to get various opinions on what people think about the two ships in question.
Yes the Nyx is obviously the most popular of the motherships for its shear damage. One has got to also consider the Aeon for its tank. I'm torn at the moment between the two. Any input/comments on what you think should follow. 
P.S. Looking for knowledgable comments of people who have experience with motherships, not random nubs who can check them out in ship info.
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demonfurbie
Minmatar
Drunken Wookies
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.04.06 19:06:00 -
[2]
it i had to pick again id pick aeon, however at this point i dont feel the need to retrain bs 5/carrier 5 i may in the near future tho.
sure the extra 2k dps (max skill no drone control units) on a nyx is nice but the aeon still does 8000dps and has over double the hitpoints when you take in to account the bonuses
the nyx has a nicer drone bay but a nicer drone bay when only 20 bombers can be deployed is that just nice, the aeon can still do 20 bombers with more hitpoints.
how ever on the aeon you can only hold 20 bombers and 19 fighters so when you need to use fighters you are at a slight disadvantage. but thats not all that often and its not that much when you take in to account the survivability of it
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Mona X
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.04.06 19:24:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: bR Fortuna
Yes the Nyx is obviously the most popular of the motherships for its shear damage.
Aeon have much more dps on half armor than Nyx's pilot in pod. :P
Join Eve-Online, meet interesting people, grief them. |
Kitty McKitty
Gallente
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.04.06 19:38:00 -
[4]
Unless you only intend to use it for PVE activity the extra DPS of the Nyx will go unnoticed. The Aeon outclasses it in every other aspect when in fleets.
~~~
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2011.04.06 19:43:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Kitty McKitty
Unless you only intend to use it for PVE activity the extra DPS of the Nyx will go unnoticed. The Aeon outclasses it in every other aspect when in fleets.
The Nyx is the best for 60 second station hugging carrier kills as well as when you want to get in quick kill some dreads on a pos and get back out. In those circumstances the extra damage is worth having because you want to be on the field for the minimum amount of time possible.
But generally for alliance level blobbing the Aeon is better.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.06 19:46:00 -
[6]
Nyx's damage advantage helps minimize exposure for short tactical engagements. Aeon's higher EHP makes it more sustainable for fleet engagements.
The more pilots on the field, the better the Aeon looks.
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bR Fortuna
Muppet Factory
Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.04.06 21:33:00 -
[7]
Epic input guys. Thanks. Any additional opinions?
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Sergeant Failfit
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Posted - 2011.04.06 21:52:00 -
[8]
go caldari!!!
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bR Fortuna
Muppet Factory
Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.04.06 22:01:00 -
[9]
Oh you mean a bait mothership?
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.07 00:46:00 -
[10]
Originally by: bR Fortuna
Epic input guys. Thanks. Any additional opinions?
I know we are enemies, but i was at the same crossroad myself recently. Nyx or Aeon?
On EFT alone i thought the Aeon was better, as its tank was THE highest in the game, so i chose to get an Aeon. i think having the extra HPs is better than having the ability to deal more HPs.
Besides, i think a fleet of Aeons would be more intimidating than a fleet of Nyxs, cause having to burn through up to 50m EHP per ship is a pretty big ask of anyone
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Koshs SC
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Posted - 2011.04.07 01:06:00 -
[11]
if its gonna die, its gonna die. The extra buffer won't save it.
10k dps in very nice, but so is 8k. Not a big difference at that point.
Pick one you like, and fly it. thats pretty much the only thing that really matters.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 02:11:00 -
[12]
Sure, if you're going to die, you're going to die -- but because it takes them twice as long to run through your buffer, it'll sure save a crapload of other ships while they're shooting at you.
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MISTER JITA
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Posted - 2011.04.07 02:30:00 -
[13]
ok, the Thanatos or Archon?
Does the extra ehp matter at sub super cap level?
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 02:34:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Aamrr on 07/04/2011 02:35:22
Originally by: MISTER JITA
ok, the Thanatos or Archon?
Does the extra ehp matter at sub super cap level?
Archon. Not only do you get way more EHP, you also get more ehp from remote reps. Thanatos is a lol-PvE carrier and I laugh at people stupid enough to train it.
Edit: Thanatos can't triage for crap, either.
Edit2: Nor does it get the vitally important remote cap transfer bonus. Neuted ships do not tank well.
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MISTER JITA
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Posted - 2011.04.07 02:44:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Aamrr
Edited by: Aamrr on 07/04/2011 02:35:22
Originally by: MISTER JITA
ok, the Thanatos or Archon?
Does the extra ehp matter at sub super cap level?
Archon. Not only do you get way more EHP, you also get more ehp from remote reps. Thanatos is a lol-PvE carrier and I laugh at people stupid enough to train it.
Edit: Thanatos can't triage for crap, either.
Edit2: Nor does it get the vitally important remote cap transfer bonus. Neuted ships do not tank well.
Damn it... well at least I found out before training gallente bs 5
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 02:55:00 -
[16]
Let me emphasize one very, very important fact:
The time spent training for a carrier VASTLY dwarfs the amount of time spent training your racial battleship to 5. You SHOULD NOT choose which race of capitals to fly based on what battleships you fly, especially because all capital ships have a racially-dependent skill to train, and the longer you spend in capitals the more you're locked into that race.
Think very carefully before you train capitals, because the race you choose is almost certainly going to be the race you're in. It's marginally feasible to fly different dreads/titans from your carriers/supercarriers, but...
...well, choose wisely.
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Frances
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Posted - 2011.04.07 03:15:00 -
[17]
I am glad I read this thread. I was about to start training for Thanatos and possibly Nyx because I already have Gallente boats. I will likely instead switch to Amarr or Caldari now.
What about the little guys. The Tristan is pretty spiffy looking. Non-Gallente I gotta go with the Hurricane, shame its not as fast as it looks. |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 03:17:00 -
[18]
Well, look at it this way -- at least you didn't train for minmatar caps 
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.07 03:18:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Frances
I am glad I read this thread. I was about to start training for Thanatos and possibly Nyx because I already have Gallente boats. I will likely instead switch to Amarr or Caldari now.
I guess i cheated, i bought 3 extra accounts and trained 3 chars to fly carriers: 2 Amarr and one Gallente.
The Archon is such a solid ship. I use to hate them before i flew them, but i was convinced to train 2 chars up for them and i have never looked back.
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Zesoft
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Posted - 2011.04.07 03:19:00 -
[20]
Should I even ask if I can train for a Chimera?
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 03:31:00 -
[21]
Chimera's a solid ship for what it does. It's the shield Archon, and many of the arguments for the Archon (high EHP, good repair efficiency, capacitor transfer for spider tanking) apply to the Chimera as well. I like it.
I'm not quite as fond of it, though, for a couple reasons.
1.) Most people fly armor capitals. There's a couple reason for this, but it has a lot to do with slave implants for supercapitals and 1600 plates for battleships. Armor just works better on bigger ships.
2.) Archon has more capacitor. Caldari ships have a nice capacitor buffer, but they tend to lack recharge. This makes it particularly difficult to do a sustainable triage Chimera, since you tend to run out of cap about 4 minutes in. It's workable, though.
3.) Archon has better fittings. Shield modules consume a crapload of CPU, and powergrid scales exponentially with ship size; CPU scales approximately linearly. Long story short, a triage Archon gets to use all of its high slots. Chimeras have to compromise with a smartbomb or something similar.
4.) Utility midslots. Sensor boosters and ECCM are your friend. Chimera doesn't really get to use them.
5.) Damage control unit. Spider tanking archons get to use it. Chimeras often forgo it for an extra capacitor power relay.
That said, it's still my second favorite capital ship, and if you know you're going to be with a shield alliance, knock yourself out.
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Zesoft
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Posted - 2011.04.07 03:40:00 -
[22]
Yep. Archon hooooo~
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.07 03:42:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Headerman on 07/04/2011 03:42:12
Plus there is the fact the Archon looks like a hoverboard from Back To The Future 2...
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rumncock
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Posted - 2011.04.07 05:34:00 -
[24]
Edited by: rumn**** on 07/04/2011 05:36:09
I asked myself this question too not long ago, here's 2 arguments to consider:
-In a super cap slug fest where not all ships on field die, there will be a lot of nyx'es on field. All the 100% nyx fleet has to do against the 50% nyx 50% aeons is primary the nyx'es over the aeon's and their fleet will kill more super cap's than your 50/50 nyx/aeon's fleet. Once it's obvious you're losing more than them there's a big chance you'll try to pull out (lag allowing), inevitable lose 1-2 extra tackled ones and never see the part where anyone shoots an aeon. Few fights continue until both super cap fleets have completely annihilated each other.
-How big is your wallet, how is your super replaced, by yourself or through alliance/corp policy?
Myself, in an move of utter selfishness opted for the aeon, simply because I prefer not being primary with my current wallet size.
edit: considering the fail entity you're from though and what you're doing right now I guess I should have told you to come see me in your wyvern instead :)
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MISTER JITA
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Posted - 2011.04.07 05:59:00 -
[25]
Originally by: rumn****
Edited by: rumn**** on 07/04/2011 05:36:09
I asked myself this question too not long ago, here's 2 arguments to consider:
-In a super cap slug fest where not all ships on field die, there will be a lot of nyx'es on field. All the 100% nyx fleet has to do against the 50% nyx 50% aeons is primary the nyx'es over the aeon's and their fleet will kill more super cap's than your 50/50 nyx/aeon's fleet. Once it's obvious you're losing more than them there's a big chance you'll try to pull out (lag allowing), inevitable lose 1-2 extra tackled ones and never see the part where anyone shoots an aeon. Few fights continue until both super cap fleets have completely annihilated each other.
-How big is your wallet, how is your super replaced, by yourself or through alliance/corp policy?
Myself, in an move of utter selfishness opted for the aeon, simply because I prefer not being primary with my current wallet size.
edit: considering the fail entity you're from though and what you're doing right now I guess I should have told you to come see me in your wyvern instead :)
What if one side has 100% nyxes and 100% aeons.
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.07 06:30:00 -
[26]
Originally by: MISTER JITA
Originally by: rumn****
Edited by: rumn**** on 07/04/2011 05:36:09
I asked myself this question too not long ago, here's 2 arguments to consider:
-In a super cap slug fest where not all ships on field die, there will be a lot of nyx'es on field. All the 100% nyx fleet has to do against the 50% nyx 50% aeons is primary the nyx'es over the aeon's and their fleet will kill more super cap's than your 50/50 nyx/aeon's fleet. Once it's obvious you're losing more than them there's a big chance you'll try to pull out (lag allowing), inevitable lose 1-2 extra tackled ones and never see the part where anyone shoots an aeon. Few fights continue until both super cap fleets have completely annihilated each other.
-How big is your wallet, how is your super replaced, by yourself or through alliance/corp policy?
Myself, in an move of utter selfishness opted for the aeon, simply because I prefer not being primary with my current wallet size.
edit: considering the fail entity you're from though and what you're doing right now I guess I should have told you to come see me in your wyvern instead :)
What if one side has 100% nyxes and 100% aeons.
Then the Aeons would most likely win, due to Slaves
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 06:34:00 -
[27]
It'd be a slaughter either way. Slaves really don't have much to do with it.
Aeons have a somewhat larger percentage of their hit points in armor, but it's not THAT much larger. The analysis is as simple as "AeonEHP*AeonDPS > NyxEHP*NyxDPS", and slaves don't change that equation much.
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Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
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Posted - 2011.04.07 07:46:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Aamrr
It'd be a slaughter either way. Slaves really don't have much to do with it.
Aeons have a somewhat larger percentage of their hit points in armor, but it's not THAT much larger. The analysis is as simple as "AeonEHP*AeonDPS > NyxEHP*NyxDPS", and slaves don't change that equation much.
I would think that slave sets will count as most alliance fleets will have max skilled boosters whether T3 or regular command, and in some cases Erebus bonus, slaves will make a difference, even without these slaves will still be a telling influence because of the Aeons higher armour hp and better slot layout for tanking.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 08:52:00 -
[29]
The point is that all those modifiers are just percentage increases. Doubling everyone's HP doesn't change the outcome (unless alpha is a legitimate concern, and FFS these are supercaps). The only real factor is that slaves only increase armor, and Aeons have a larger percentage of their HP in armor, so they get a bit more benefit.
Even without implants or gang link bonuses of any sort, a Nyx will only do 25% more damage, while an Aeon will have about 50% more hp. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who's going to win that engagement.
The only real question is whether the Nyx fleet will be stupid enough to stick around.
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Frances
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Posted - 2011.04.07 10:33:00 -
[30]
I wonder how the Hel fleet would do in these theoretical engagements with it's repair boni at work.
What about the little guys. The Tristan is pretty spiffy looking. Non-Gallente I gotta go with the Hurricane, shame its not as fast as it looks. |
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Dodgy Past
Amarr
Zor Industries
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.07 11:30:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Zesoft
Should I even ask if I can train for a Chimera?
Once this question would have made people think you were a foolish carebear.
But since shield tanking is as common as armour tanking in fleet engagements there is a definite place for the Chimera, so it's worth considering which you need more in fleets, shield or armour... especially taking into account which one your alliance struggles to get when they need them.
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Dodgy Past
Amarr
Zor Industries
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.07 11:32:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 07/04/2011 11:32:28
Originally by: Aamrr
The point is that all those modifiers are just percentage increases. Doubling everyone's HP doesn't change the outcome (unless alpha is a legitimate concern, and FFS these are supercaps). The only real factor is that slaves only increase armor, and Aeons have a larger percentage of their HP in armor, so they get a bit more benefit.
Even without implants or gang link bonuses of any sort, a Nyx will only do 25% more damage, while an Aeon will have about 50% more hp. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who's going to win that engagement.
The only real question is whether the Nyx fleet will be stupid enough to stick around.
Actually doubling the EHP while leaving the DPS alone will definitely benefit the people with more EHP, since their advantage has been doubled while the disadvantage has remained the same, so the same fleet would be able to take on an even larger fleet.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.10 00:33:00 -
[33]
Err...no. No it wouldn't. Learn 2 Maths.
If it worked the way you're suggesting, the double HP buff would have made Abaddons unstoppable. All it really did was nerf alpha a bit and generally slow stuff down.
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rumncock
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Posted - 2011.04.10 02:42:00 -
[34]
Originally by: MISTER JITA
What if one side has 100% nyxes and 100% aeons.
considering my overview is usually filled up with nyx'es and just a single aeon or perhaps two it seems like such an far off concept but yea sure, in that case I'd put my money on the aeon's with all other factors being equal.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.10 03:20:00 -
[35]
To be honest, an "optimal" setup would be composed of just one or the other, since the Nyxes just get primaried off the field first. It's what game theorists refer to as a Nash Equilibrium.
Adding an Aeon to a pure-Nyx fleet doesn't give as much damage as another Nyx would, and the tank doesn't matter until all the Nyxes are already dead and you've lost.
Similarly, adding a Nyx to a pure-Aeon fleet doesn't help much, since that Nyx only gets to do 25% more damage during the time it takes to kill him, as naturally he's going to be shot first. Doing 25% more damage 2/3 the time gives you only 83% as much damage. Not a good trade.
In practice, this doesn't matter -- nobody's going to be stupid enough to tell a mom pilot, "Nah, you didn't bring the right type, go home." A case of theory not matching practice, I suppose.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.10 04:53:00 -
[36]
Hel.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Tali Lei
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Posted - 2011.04.10 05:26:00 -
[37]
Yeah, any theorists for the Hel vs Aeon (or opposing equivalent)?
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Lucious Shakiel
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Posted - 2011.04.10 08:01:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tali Lei
Yeah, any theorists for the Hel vs Aeon (or opposing equivalent)?
That is what I am curious to hear. I am currently training all of the carrier skills except for the relevant BS V. I am waiting to soak up as much knowledge as I can before making a final choice.
How would Hel/Nid fleet match up against the others. It is my understanding the the minnie boats are the squishiest, but those rep bonus's look sexy.
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Emperor Ryan
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Dirt Nap Squad.
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Posted - 2011.04.10 11:12:00 -
[39]
Originally by: bR Fortuna
Epic input guys. Thanks. Any additional opinions?
Its pretty Simple BR, The Aeon Offers more than the Nyx, The Aeon runs Over double the EHP and With slaves you get a bit more a boost than you do with Slaves on a Nyx, In large fleets the Aeons are not Primays if there are Nyxes and Hels/Wyverns on the field.
Also if your not taking to much fire, the Aeon can last a Logoffski much more than an Nyx could, The Only valid point for the Nyx is the sheer dps which is usefull for hotdropping solo or in small groups to kill people on stations and such who have agression. and for Top damage dealer. neddless to say i am buying a nyx for the hotdrop aspect but i have an aeon toon as well for fleet work.
- Emperor
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Emperor Ryan
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Dirt Nap Squad.
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Posted - 2011.04.10 11:14:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Lucious Shakiel
Originally by: Tali Lei
Yeah, any theorists for the Hel vs Aeon (or opposing equivalent)?
That is what I am curious to hear. I am currently training all of the carrier skills except for the relevant BS V. I am waiting to soak up as much knowledge as I can before making a final choice.
How would Hel/Nid fleet match up against the others. It is my understanding the the minnie boats are the squishiest, but those rep bonus's look sexy.
This is really easy on a super cap level, The hel currelt serves no real purpose, Dont get me wrong its one of the best looking ships in the game, but its Bonuses are pointless, It normlay sheild tanks making the mods very price compaired to a armour tank, And it gets priamed due to the fact that it sheild tanked and its avaluble killmail, It does the same DPS as an Aeon and does have any tank in comparsian of that of the aeon.
TL;DR Hel for looks, Aeon for Surviablity
- Emperor
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ovenproofjet
Caldari
Therapy.
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.10 14:19:00 -
[41]
The way I look at it is if I'm going to be spending 20billion isk on a ship, I want it to say alive. Quite plain and simple, dead = no use to anyone
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Irani Firecam
Lords 0f Justice
Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.10 14:35:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Tali Lei
Yeah, any theorists for the Hel vs Aeon (or opposing equivalent)?
It's been my experience also, that all Minmatar supercapitals win the 'getting primaried first in an engagement' achievement. Due to the fact that they have less hitpoints than their Caldari shield tanking equivalent, and they can only receive shield remote repairs - whereas the armour tankers can still benefit from shield repairs.
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Click here for my high resolution renders. |
FT Diomedes
Gallente
The Fimbriani
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.04.10 15:13:00 -
[43]
I went for the Aeon with my Supercarrier pilot. I went for it because of the extra EHP with the Slave set. I haven't had the opportunity to use it much, but I like it a lot. I figure that after I lose it in spectacular fashion, I'll get a Nyx, just for the heck of it.
---
This doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.10 15:41:00 -
[44]
For a more selfish analysis...
Nyxes always get primaried first, but they do more damage while they're on the field. If your alliance is paying for your super and you want to killmail *****, get a Nyx. Otherwise, get an Aeon and logoffski.
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Rheakith
Gallente
The Maverick Navy
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.04.10 16:17:00 -
[45]
Nyxes will break the hostile RR faster then the others. The Hel and Nyx are the only moms whos bonus helps the fleet and not just themselves.
Unless you have all Aeons or all Wyverns then the Nyx works better. It isn't all about EHP.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.10 17:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tali Lei
Yeah, any theorists for the Hel vs Aeon (or opposing equivalent)?
Well in theory the more Hels fielded the stronger they get. The problem is almost everyone in supercaps is self centered and not altruistic.
Ten Hels would beat ten Aeons. But in EvE today, there is only 0.6 Hels for every Twenty Aeons.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Irani Firecam
Lords 0f Justice
Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.10 18:07:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Tali Lei
Yeah, any theorists for the Hel vs Aeon (or opposing equivalent)?
Well in theory the more Hels fielded the stronger they get. The problem is almost everyone in supercaps is self centered and not altruistic.
Ten Hels would beat ten Aeons. But in EvE today, there is only 0.6 Hels for every Twenty Aeons.
I don't see how fielding more Hels will make the Hel blob stronger, virtually no supercapitals have a more than at most 1 capital remote repairer fitted due to the need to field more fighter bombers. After all, a proper capital fleet will have carriers performing that task.
The only ways a supercarrier benefit a fleet is 1) do more dps (Nyx), or 2) survive longer to continue to apply dps (Aeon, Wyvern).
Doing damage is the role of a supercarrier, supporting supercarriers and repairing them is the role of a carrier.
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Click here for my high resolution renders. |
Lucious Shakiel
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Posted - 2011.04.10 20:00:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Irani Firecam
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Tali Lei
Yeah, any theorists for the Hel vs Aeon (or opposing equivalent)?
Well in theory the more Hels fielded the stronger they get. The problem is almost everyone in supercaps is self centered and not altruistic.
Ten Hels would beat ten Aeons. But in EvE today, there is only 0.6 Hels for every Twenty Aeons.
I don't see how fielding more Hels will make the Hel blob stronger, virtually no supercapitals have a more than at most 1 capital remote repairer fitted due to the need to field more fighter bombers. After all, a proper capital fleet will have carriers performing that task.
The only ways a supercarrier benefit a fleet is 1) do more dps (Nyx), or 2) survive longer to continue to apply dps (Aeon, Wyvern).
Doing damage is the role of a supercarrier, supporting supercarriers and repairing them is the role of a carrier.
I can agree with that. But, I mentioned the Nidhoggur as well. Would a Nid supporting one of the above fleets get primaried because of it's rep bonus's, and are it's rep bonus's difference making enough to justify lower EHP. I like the fact that the minnie ship can shield or armor rep as well.
I'll still probably train Amarr at the end of the day though lol.
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Irani Firecam
Lords 0f Justice
Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.10 20:09:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Irani Firecam on 10/04/2011 20:11:36
Edited by: Irani Firecam on 10/04/2011 20:11:07
Originally by: Lucious Shakiel
I can agree with that. But, I mentioned the Nidhoggur as well. Would a Nid supporting one of the above fleets get primaried because of it's rep bonus's, and are it's rep bonus's difference making enough to justify lower EHP. I like the fact that the minnie ship can shield or armor rep as well.
I'll still probably train Amarr at the end of the day though lol.
My post was in the context of the thread, ie. supercarriers.
If you are in a supercapital engagement, the easiest to kill supercapitals will normally be targeted first, it doesn't make too much of a difference whether you are in an Archon or Nidhoggur when you have fighter bombers shooting you.
Also, it is worth mentioning that the Nidhoggur and Thanatos does not recieve any bonus for remote energy, which is a standard module for any carrier when joining a supercapital fleet, since supercapitals have terrible capacitor recharge rates.
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Click here for my high resolution renders. |
Emperor Ryan
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Dirt Nap Squad.
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Posted - 2011.04.10 21:34:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Irani Firecam
Edited by: Irani Firecam on 10/04/2011 20:11:36
Edited by: Irani Firecam on 10/04/2011 20:11:07
Originally by: Lucious Shakiel
I can agree with that. But, I mentioned the Nidhoggur as well. Would a Nid supporting one of the above fleets get primaried because of it's rep bonus's, and are it's rep bonus's difference making enough to justify lower EHP. I like the fact that the minnie ship can shield or armor rep as well.
I'll still probably train Amarr at the end of the day though lol.
My post was in the context of the thread, ie. supercarriers.
If you are in a supercapital engagement, the easiest to kill supercapitals will normally be targeted first, it doesn't make too much of a difference whether you are in an Archon or Nidhoggur when you have fighter bombers shooting you.
Also, it is worth mentioning that the Nidhoggur and Thanatos does not recieve any bonus for remote energy, which is a standard module for any carrier when joining a supercapital fleet, since supercapitals have terrible capacitor recharge rates.
Thats what Archons and Chimeras are for
- Emperor
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 01:15:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Headerman on 11/04/2011 01:14:55
(Long poast)
Well... say for example you have 11 Hels, each with 3 Cap shield transporters all repping one other Hel with the following setup:
[Hel, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Pith X-Type Photon Scattering Field
Pith X-Type Heat Dissipation Field
Pith X-Type Ballistic Deflection Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster
Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger
Capital Shield Transporter I
Capital Shield Transporter I
Capital Shield Transporter I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
The 10 hels repping with their 3 reppers gives nigh on 70k reps per 5 seconds, or 14k reps per second.
In the above fit, the lowest resist is Exp at 78.9%.
Now if there were 11 Aeons attacking in the following setup:
[Aeon, New Setup 1]
Corpus X-Type Armor EM Hardener
Corpus X-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Corpus X-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener
Corpus X-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger
ECCM - Radar II
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Tyrfing x20
They would be dealing 8k exp DPS each, resulting in 88k DPS. Now with a 21.1% hole in explosive damage, this would result in 18,568 DPS getting through.
sooo.... 18,568 - ~14k results in roughly 4,568 damage per second NOT being repped.
Now the Hel setup above has approx. 2,861,662 shield hit points.
2,861,662 / 4,568 = 626.46 seconds before the Hel loses shields (other Hels cap capacity not withstanding).
So, 11 Hels Vs 11 Aeons, with the Hels lewest resist of 78.9%, and the Aeons dealing all of that one damage, one Hel (in a perfect Cap world) would last a bit over 10 minutes.
I can only imagine that with less Hels Vs less Aeons, the Hels would last longer, if they never ran out of cap.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 01:28:00 -
[52]
Hah. If you're going to bring reps into the equation, the Aeon still wins. A 5% resist bonus correlates to 33% more EHP per raw HP. 33% > 25%.
The fact that those Aeons also have the option to use cap transfer to generate cap for their reps only makes the matchup even more hopeless.
If you applied Pantheon spider-tanking principles to Aeons, you could easily get a 33k EHP/sec tank PER AEON on the field. And unlike the pantheon setup, these Aeons would actually be able to survive a doomsday. Or a dozen...
Now, granted, the node would lag out before you'd ever actually be able to use it effectively -- any situation which requires that kind of tank will also destroy any sort of time-sensitive logistics setup. But it works on paper dammit!
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 01:33:00 -
[53]
Lets try the other foot....
I have added 3 DCU's to each Hel and equipped them with 23 Tyrfings:
[Hel, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Pith X-Type Photon Scattering Field
Pith X-Type Heat Dissipation Field
Pith X-Type Ballistic Deflection Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster
Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger
Capital Shield Transporter I
Capital Shield Transporter I
Capital Shield Transporter I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Tyrfing x23
From 11 such ships, they give out 101800 DPS of explosive damage.
Unbonused and using the previous Aeon fit out, the Aeons Exp resist is 90.9%, resulting in 9.1% of 101,800 DPS through.
This equates to 9263.8 damage getting through every second.
The above Aeon fit has approx. 2,376,000 armour hit points.
2,376,000 / 9264 = 256.47 seconds before the Aeons armour fails
256 seconds after an aeon recieves damage from 11 Hels, it will have 0 armour, as opposed to 1 hel in 11 lasting over 600 seconds.
Just for kicks i will try just 20 Tyrfings, and remove the DCUs from the hell:
This means there is 88,000 DPS from 11 Hels.
88,000 / 9.1 = 8008 DPS
2,376,000 / 8008 = 296 seconds. So with 220 Tyrfings attacking one Aeon, that Aeon would last 296 seconds.
296 seconds for an Aeon, over 600 for a Hel being repped up.
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 01:42:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Headerman on 11/04/2011 01:45:59
Yeah it sure works on paper :) I am getting to my conclusion though 
Remember the Aeon does not get a bonus for cap transfer, only a bonus to energy and armour range, so they would need Archons for cap, as would the Hels.
My last calculations will be done assuming each of the 11 Hels has 3 Cap armour reppers as thus:
[Aeon, New Setup 1]
Corpus X-Type Armor EM Hardener
Corpus X-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Corpus X-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener
Corpus X-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger
ECCM - Radar II
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Tyrfing x20
Assuming each Cap RR reps 1500 HP per second, that gives approx 9,000 HP per second repped.
This basically eliminates 9,000 of incoming DPS. Assuming the 11 Hels have 20 Tyrfings each, this results in 79,000 DPS.
79,000 / 9.1 = 7,189 of raw damage per second.
2,376,000 / 7,189 = 330 seconds before an Aeons armour was eliminated. I think i have to go and rejig some numbers...
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 02:46:00 -
[55]
Care to explain why the heck the Aeon is firing into the Hel's strong resist?
That might have something to do with your crappy analysis.
Now let's start putting some remote repair augmentors and egress port maximizers on those Aeons, use those new meta-2 cap transfer and remote repair modules, get a proper talisman powergenerator setup...
...and as I said, each Aeon will be repping 33k EHP per second, while putting out 8000 DPS. You can put as many drone control units on those Hels as you like, but those hit points aren't going anywhere.
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 02:51:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Aamrr
Care to explain why the heck the Aeon is firing into the Hel's strong resist?
That might have something to do with your crappy analysis.
Now let's start putting some remote repair augmentors and egress port maximizers on those Aeons, use those new meta-2 cap transfer and remote repair modules, get a proper talisman powergenerator setup...
...and as I said, each Aeon will be repping 33k EHP per second, while putting out 8000 DPS. You can put as many drone control units on those Hels as you like, but those hit points aren't going anywhere.
As i said, the exp hole in the Hel is the biggest, as is the exp hole on the Aeon, so wtf are u talking about?
And i am dealing with straight armour/shield HP, not EHP
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 02:57:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Aamrr on 11/04/2011 03:03:58
This is what I get for not reading such long posts in more detail. What a crappy fit...
You need 2 invulns and 4 specific hardeners, at least, which leaves one slot for SeBo. If you're anticipating remote sensor boosting, I've seen some even add an extra photon resist.
That said, your Aeon sucks. If you're going to go for a true remote rep setup, you need to do it properly, with Pantheon style remote-capacitor generation using talismans and egress port maximizers, projected onto Aeons with remote repair augmentors.
Look, I'll post a link.
Edit: and for the record, those numbers are conservative, since EFT doesn't properly handle projected talismans. Lag permitting, a group of Pantheon Aeons can permatank a group 3x their size right up until the groups get so large you can alpha through a supercapital armor buffer.
Yeah. The node will crash first.
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 03:04:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Aamrr
Edited by: Aamrr on 11/04/2011 02:57:55
This is what I get for not reading such long posts in more detail. What a crappy fit...
You need 2 invulns and 4 specific hardeners, at least, which leaves one slot for SeBo. If you're anticipating remote sensor boosting, I've seen some even add an extra photon resist.
That said, your Aeon sucks. If you're going to go for a true remote rep setup, you need to do it properly, with Pantheon style remote-capacitor generation using talismans and egress port maximizers, projected onto Aeons with remote repair augmentors.
Look, I'll post a link.
Edit: and for the record, those numbers are conservative, since EFT doesn't properly handle projected talismans.
On paper, the fit is irrelevent. On paper the cap transfer is irrelevent. On paper EHP is irrelevent.
Do try to keep up.
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Irani Firecam
Lords 0f Justice
Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.11 03:08:00 -
[59]
Assuming that such a ******ed situation even exists where you have two sides fielding exactly eleven Aeon against eleven Hel with these fits you have produced, there is nothing preventing any of the ships from simply warping off and/or jumping out of the system because they have no points.
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Click here for my high resolution renders. |
Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 03:12:00 -
[60]
Yes i know. I also know this scenario would never work in reality (i did write that down as well).
In theory the Hels strength is its repping, and it's enormous shield HP to sustain the reps (as opposed to the Nids paper thin armour/shields).
In reality though, you are gonna get lag, jammers, titans and everything else screwing up a pantheon. CCP believes the Hel is a viable SC because of it's theoretical spider repping ability, and the ONLY way this will ever work is if there is now lag (which i also said).
So in all there are 2 ways to fix the hell:
1) Fix lag
2) change the bonus
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Irani Firecam
Lords 0f Justice
Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.11 03:32:00 -
[61]
Clearly, the minmatar capitals needs a bonus that is in keeping with their racial philosophy, that is '5% bonus to max velocity per level', plus the inclusion of the much needed 1000MN microwarpdrives.
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Click here for my high resolution renders. |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 03:32:00 -
[62]
But as I pointed out earlier, the Aeon is inherently superior at capacitor generation and repping ability. So even if you miraculously "fixed lag," the Aeon would still do it better.
I would be 100% in favor of a buff to the Nidhoggur's/Hel's rep amount bonus. 7.5% at a bare minimum. 10% might even be reasonable, given lower EHP and they share, and the disastrously poor fitting of the Nidhoggur itself.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 03:44:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Irani Firecam
Clearly, the minmatar capitals needs a bonus that is in keeping with their racial philosophy, that is '5% bonus to max velocity per level', plus the inclusion of the much needed 1000MN microwarpdrives.
Don't you mean 1GN microwarpdrives?
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 03:49:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Headerman on 11/04/2011 03:50:48
Originally by: Aamrr
But as I pointed out earlier, the Aeon is inherently superior at capacitor generation and repping ability. So even if you miraculously "fixed lag," the Aeon would still do it better.
I would be 100% in favor of a buff to the Nidhoggur's/Hel's rep amount bonus. 7.5% at a bare minimum. 10% might even be reasonable, given lower EHP and they share, and the disastrously poor fitting of the Nidhoggur itself.
+1 to that. Also given the whole point of the Hel/Nis is to rep, a buff in cap capacity would also be pretty in line with whats needed
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 04:22:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Aamrr on 11/04/2011 04:22:38
I'm not so inclined to give them that. Minmatar are NOT known for their capacitor, and in fact it's one of the primary weaknesses of the race. There is nothing wrong with having a carrier (especially the Nidhoggur) being dependent on cap transfer. Fly with an Archon or a Chimera.
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Twisted Girl
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.11 08:06:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Twisted Girl on 11/04/2011 08:10:23
As a person that accually fly supercarrier(nyx),and have passed over 300kills in mine so far, I dont rly thing what race u pick matters thaaat much as long as ure a armor tanker.
U can argue to death over if a fleet with mostly nyxes vs aeons is bether than the other way ect, but in the end I would simply pick a supercarriers based on ure characters skillset/isk.
For my use I would personally never trade my nyx for a aeon,(I love way too much the little extra dmg the nyx got when Im killing carriers/jf/dreads in docking range/slowboating to forcefield) however I do reconsize that the aoen hull is abouyt 4-5b cheaper on the open market.
The whole tank vs dps discussion ( solo)logofski or any solo activity Aoen might do bether, but then again most supers isnt solo and the ehp doesnt matter that much in a typical huge cap fleet fest where u got tons of RR on both sides. local "tank/ehp" isnt gonna usually be the decive matter when the only difference is that its gonna take u 30s longer to die or not, very few ppl shoot aoens anyways, so you prob wont even notice this unless ure alrdy lost the fight and then the ehp is prob not gonna save u.
so unless ure planing to only solo drop, it doesnt rly matter what u pick. But I know our fc favours dps over ehp as in most of the chases ure simply using supercarriers as a dps tool. the ehp added from a aeon wont be noticed prob anyways since fleet either A) won b) lost horrible and all the nyxes dies and u simply last 20s longer.
I would compare it to trying to tank ure sniping bs in a sniping bs fest. ure added ehp doesnt rly matter in most chases:P
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 13:03:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Twisted Girl
stuff
wow. That was painful to read. That said, you DO realize that resists make remote repair more effective, right? Right?! The Aeon gets 33% more out of a suicide triage than a Nyx does. Surely that's worth considering...
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bR Fortuna
Muppet Factory
Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.04.11 15:38:00 -
[68]
Right on!!
My questions have been answered and must insight provided in this thread guys. Thanks in large part to Mr. Amarr guy, your views seems to be mostly bias but extremely accurate. Thanks also twisted, input most appericated. Thanks to all others who threw in their 2 and even 3 cents (leave it to a goon to throw in EFT analysis).
"P.S. Looking for knowledgable comments of people who have experience with motherships, not random nubs who can check them out in ship info OR EFT."
-It seems I should have added that in my initial post.
Aeon it is.
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Twisted Girl
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:19:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Twisted Girl on 11/04/2011 18:23:13
Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: Twisted Girl
stuff
wow. That was painful to read. That said, you DO realize that resists make remote repair more effective, right? Right?! The Aeon gets 33% more out of a suicide triage than a Nyx does. Surely that's worth considering...
if u accually been in supercap brawls u would know that triage carriers get insta popped by fighterbombers/dded as soon as the fight start , and no fc in their right mind would shoot supercaps with triage carriers on the field(unless its a hel derp:p). 7-8 nyxes should 1 volly a triage carrier anyways.
So even if aeons in theori benefit more for getting RR, no RR will be alive at that point anyways(most nyxes will be dead aswell, so even Supercap RR is gonna be rly limited)
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yo |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:30:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Aamrr on 11/04/2011 18:30:16
Ehh, you do present a compelling argument. Fair point.
Edit: You could wait to deploy the suicide triage until after the Aeons start taking damage, but by that time you've pretty much already lost, so yeah...
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:43:00 -
[71]
I probably should have put my posts into a seperate thread, but i just wanted to highlight the areas of the Hel that CCP thinks it's all good with.
It's just too bad the battlefield gives too many variables to make a Hel fleet work, add in the fact that a boosting Leviathan initially gives empty shield capacity that the Hels have to rep up themselves, as well as no direct Slave implant set equivalent, it is pretty much a no contest.
Aeon for me thanks.
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Lucious Shakiel
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Posted - 2011.04.12 10:26:00 -
[72]
But,
The Aeon looks stupid.
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.04.12 10:28:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Lucious Shakiel
But,
The Aeon looks stupid.
Who cares?
________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99
In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
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DarkAegix
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Posted - 2011.04.12 11:57:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Lucious Shakiel
But,
The Aeon looks stupid.
I like it :(
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freshspree
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Posted - 2011.04.12 13:38:00 -
[75]
Edited by: freshspree on 12/04/2011 13:41:53
Gratz m8. Funny enough, it's easy to tell which is better just by playing with EFT! Unless you want the NYX for its looks.
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bR Fortuna
Muppet Factory
Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.04.13 15:36:00 -
[76]
I understand that its entirely a matter of opinion but I myself think that the Hel is one of if not best looking ships in game.
And yes the Aeon looks like a hotdog with cancer but such things can be overlooked. Much like the use of a paper bag or a light switch....
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Headerman
Minmatar
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.13 23:51:00 -
[77]
I don't mind the Aeon, cause you know CCP will eventually fix its looks
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.14 00:03:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Aamrr on 14/04/2011 00:03:47
I LIKE the Aeon :(
Edit: The way it looks, I mean.
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freshspree
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Posted - 2011.04.14 04:27:00 -
[79]
I have a question so I thought I should post in this thread. Shouldn't the wyvern be better than the aeon because of similar EHP plus much better passive shield recharge. I mean buffing all that shield hp with huge resists just like a rattler or scorp navy should make it tank better.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.14 04:38:00 -
[80]
Originally by: freshspree
I have a question so I thought I should post in this thread. Shouldn't the wyvern be better than the aeon because of similar EHP plus much better passive shield recharge. I mean buffing all that shield hp with huge resists just like a rattler or scorp navy should make it tank better.
Wyvern
Shield recharge time: 40000000.5 s
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Isan'na
Malicious Destruction
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Posted - 2011.04.14 05:00:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Isan''na on 14/04/2011 05:03:30
Originally by: Aamrr
Wyvern
Shield recharge time: 40000000.5 s
Translates to 1.268 years, just so ya know.
EDIT: actually, that's the EVElopedia figure, but I'm pretty sure time durations there are in ms. So that'd actually be 40000 s, or 11 hours. Still, point stands.
<Isan>
MALD, your best source for Concord LP.
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RAPT0R JESUS
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Posted - 2011.04.14 05:21:00 -
[82]
Supercap preference in fleet fights really comes down to the situation. For many situations DPS is the most important quality of the mums (IE burning triage etc.). On the other hand though, large (and I mean large) high lag situations with multiple supers is where the Amarr supers shine. In this situation the more HP your supers can take before they pop the more chances you have of either evac'ing your fleet or popping more of the hostile supers.
Personally, I love my Aeon a ton regardless of the fact it's horribly ugly simply because I'll be the last to be primaried on the field ^.^
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