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Turning Points in the History of Eve and How CCP Ruined it

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:21:00 - [1] Every now and then I get an email in my inbox inviting me to reactivate my account for a few days for free and see what has changed. Invariably I take them up on the offer, hoping to see vast improvements in the gameplay. Unfortunately there is nothing compelling about the game anymore and I invariably end up canceling again. This got me to thinking about what exactly killed Eve for the PvPer? There are four main turning points of note that we can point to that have pushed Eve into becoming a carebear game that has a bit of "arena" PvP. 1) The creation of CONCORD. Concord was supposed to be this mild mannered police force when it was created but the developers went to great pain to tell us that they were not invincible and that they could be defeated. Many of us screamed that the introduction of CONCORD would invariably lead to them becoming ubiquitous and undefeatable. We argued that once introduced the non-pvpers would demand that they be more and more effective until they were invincible. We were, of course, flamed out of existence, excoriated as being irrational and overreacting. 2) Addition of Zydrine and Megacyte to NPC drone loot via compounds. Prior to the introduction of dropped refillable compounds the only source for zydrine and megabyte was 0.0. This made a very compelling reason to go to 0.0 to gain more riches. Only so much could be made in empire and to strike it rich you had to go to 0.0. However, that all changed when zydrine and mega were added to empire space. We argued that this would mean most of 0.0 would be a worthless wasteland and that zed and mega farmed in empire would overtake 0.0 imported. Again we were flamed to hell and back. 3) Introduction of the level 4 mission. This was a carebears dream. The carebear could patiently work himself up billions of isk with very little in danger. It also presented a further reason to avoid 0.0 like the plague. Why risk ratting expensive rats in 0.0 when you could burn through missions in peace in high sec. 0.0 went from being the end game to being a 99% complete wasteland. There are 2 or three areas in all of 0.0 now that are worth even owning. The rest of it is a glorified WOW arena. 4) The introduction of Jump drive. Once upon a time alliances made huge convoys of freighters to get critical equipment into 0.0. Those convoys were often attacked by those with the moxy and that required their protection. Supply lines were critical to maintain and the deeper you went in 0.0 the harder it was. After the introduction of jump drives, carriers and jump freighters load up in empire and jump safely to POS shields and stations. Interdiction is pretty much impossible if the logistics people have any idea what they are doing. Strategic warfare was eliminated. Since these events Eve has been trending more and more towards the carebear. CCP has made half hearted attempts to shore up pvp but introducing new and expensive types of ships doesn't do anything to address the fundamental problems introduced into the game. Furthermore, CCP has been unwilling to provide the tools for players to carve out their own little kingdoms in 0.0. Currently the blob rules 0.0 space and strategic warfare is a joke at best. CCP has failed to introduce things like faction bubbles, faction locked gates, player deployed gate guns or any of a billion ideas proposed by hundreds of players over the years. ..... Continued below ....
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:25:00 - [2] .... Continued from original post .... It makes one wonder what happened. Those that created eve were visionaries. They advertised a hard-nosed, pvp centric game. Did the bean counters get ahold of eve and demand that it be made like WoW? Did the bean counters point at the success of WoW and say "yeah do it like they did!!" That is the only logical conclusion I can reach. After all no one in the MMOG industry has innovated since eve came out. Stripping off graphics and sound, almost all other MMOGs play exactly the same. The industry has almost frozen turning out clones of the same tired old gameplay. The beancounters seem to have forgotten what it is like to innovate, take risks and come up with something new. Instead their eyes glaze with avarice at the WoW market and fail to consider there might be other untapped markets out there. So many games purport to be the next best thing in pvp; Shadowbane, Darkfall, Mortal Online, and all of them end up getting flushed down the toilet of carebearism and turned into wow clones. Is it possible that no one is able to innovate anymore in the industry? Like movies that have gotten so stale in their creativity that they are remaking old classics, the MMOG industry seems to be slapping new graphics on the same gameplay once a year. Once the players find out that the game is the same, the would be pvpers drift away, and are flamed out the door. A vast audience that is of yet untapped. An audience that includes myself as well as most of the old eve pvpers that no longer play anymore. At any rate this post is likely to get flamed as well. Just as all of the other posts on those 4 turning points have gotten flamed. Its just too bad that we end up being right about these things so often. The irony of the carebear is that despite being the "non-violent" type in game, those that are carebears are often nasty violent in the forums. shrug Go figure. CCP could change their tune and start pushing eve back to a pvp centric game. I doubt they will but they could. I guess I will await my next email of free time to find out.
Xavier Isaacson Minmatar Surface Detail	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:25:00 - [3] Edited by: Xavier Isaacson on 15/05/2011 10:27:43 Your stuff, I can haz? Also, I should point out that yes, this thread is likely to get flamed to hell and back because all you are doing is whining. You offer no insights, no proposals for change, in fact you offer nothing at all but a stellar example of bitter vet syndrome. Oh and by the by, I've been playing EVE for almost 7 years, which in a lot of peoples eyes makes me a vet. The difference between me and you is that I recognise the need for change in an ever changing world. Originally by: Verone BBC Trust are a sack of arses.
Koss Rells	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Xavier Isaacson Your stuff, I can haz? How original. Only a feeble mind could think of such a reply to such a post.
ZenSun Total Mayhem. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:28:00 - [5] Things change.. Adapt or die.
Xavier Isaacson Minmatar Surface Detail	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:29:00 - [6] Originally by: Koss Rells Originally by: Xavier Isaacson Your stuff, I can haz? How original. Only a feeble mind could think of such a reply to such a post. Just making a placeholder for a longer comment is all. Also it could be argued that only a feeble mind offers nothing new, which is pretty much sums up the entirety of your massive post. Originally by: Verone BBC Trust are a sack of arses.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Xavier Isaacson Edited by: Xavier Isaacson on 15/05/2011 10:27:43 Your stuff, I can haz? Also, I should point out that yes, this thread is likely to get flamed to hell and back because all you are doing is whining. You offer no insights, no proposals for change, in fact you offer nothing at all but a stellar example of bitter vet syndrome. Oh and by the by, I've been playing EVE for almost 7 years, which in a lot of peoples eyes makes me a vet. The difference between me and you is that I recognise the need for change in an ever changing world. Clearly you failed to read the whole post. That or you suffer from insipid stupidity. I stated that there have been billions of ideas proposed by hundreds of players over the years to revive both 0.0 and pvp, to give tools to create more coherent and lifelike kingdoms in 0.0. I need not go over all of those suggestions yet again. They are easily findable for all to see. I wouldnt be surprised if you had played several years but if you have and agree with where the game is, that just means you have been an empire rat the majority of your gameplay time. Perhaps a builder of ships, a trader, who knows. But a pvper would have to be out of his friggin mind to agree with the direction of the game as it stands.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:35:00 - [8] I for one am glad to see you whining on the forums and making these terrible threads again for the entertainment of the EVE population. PS. Is your daughter still as hot as she used to be?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue I for one am glad to see you whining on the forums and making these terrible threads again for the entertainment of the EVE population. PS. Is your daughter still as hot as she used to be? My daughter is 5 you pedophile.
Sarmatiko	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:39:00 - [10] Edited by: Sarmatiko on 15/05/2011 10:43:06 YC113.10.05 Angel Cartel Incursions to the Amarr/Khanid border systems. More PVE. Go ahead, cry more Originally by: Rells Fortunately I have ample firearms to protect her from creeps like you. You know, countries where people without brain or sense of humor are prohibited from gun ownership is much more safer than your current cowboy land.

Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:39:00 - [11] One proposal to change EVE drastically: remove clones. Joking aside, I'm sometimes a bit sad that I haven't played EVE in the starting days when a battleship was still an impressive vessel, there wasn't T2 stuff and the universe was still a vast and mostly empty explorable area without capital hotdrops.
Daemeon Fyral Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:39:00 - [12] Okay, so you have a couple good points, the core problem I see you having though is that you seem too want eve to be this giant pvp playground. and sure that may be fun for you for many other players that just isn't the way they roll. Sure eve isn't perfect and they are "working on" ways to try and fix some of its issues. The way things are currently actually works fairly well in my opinion, if someone wants safety they can stick to high-sec, they want to get involved in alliances they can head to 0.0 and if they just want to go and shoot at people theres always low-sec. EVE will never be perfect, and it will never fit everyones play style. if they make changes you either adapt to it (which alot of the veterans have) or you leave (which is what you did) as for them "pushing away certain players" as I mentioned there is no way they could ever appease everyone, hell half of the changes that you lambaste as "ruining the game" are the exact same changes that prevented me and probably a lot of other players like me from leaving after the free trial. CONCORD for example, smart idea in my opinion, gives a bit of a safe haven for new players while they get on their feet instead of being killed instantly the second they undock for the first time. new player retention = more people to shoot at in the long term. Sure I think they could be scaled back a little bit, make it so if your smart about it you MIGHT be able to escape em. but at the end of the day their presence helps the game far far more than it hurts it. if even for every 1 person that quits because they can't pew pew anywhere and everywhere eve manages to retain even 2 new players who wouldn't have stayed otherwise then their existence is justified. Also, can I haz your stuff?
Tosser Galore	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:42:00 - [13] 0.0 is nerfed again, again and again. Supply lines should be crucial. So begone "intricate" net of jump bridges. (it's the same story in every game; it caters to teh blooooooooooooob) Remove Local. L4 is currently as good as or better than a lot of content (income wise) in 0.0. Ps. Bring back Yulai.
Xavier Isaacson Minmatar Surface Detail	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:45:00 - [14] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Xavier Isaacson Edited by: Xavier Isaacson on 15/05/2011 10:27:43 Your stuff, I can haz? Also, I should point out that yes, this thread is likely to get flamed to hell and back because all you are doing is whining. You offer no insights, no proposals for change, in fact you offer nothing at all but a stellar example of bitter vet syndrome. Oh and by the by, I've been playing EVE for almost 7 years, which in a lot of peoples eyes makes me a vet. The difference between me and you is that I recognise the need for change in an ever changing world. Clearly you failed to read the whole post. That or you suffer from insipid stupidity. I stated that there have been billions of ideas proposed by hundreds of players over the years to revive both 0.0 and pvp, to give tools to create more coherent and lifelike kingdoms in 0.0. I need not go over all of those suggestions yet again. They are easily findable for all to see. I wouldnt be surprised if you had played several years but if you have and agree with where the game is, that just means you have been an empire rat the majority of your gameplay time. Perhaps a builder of ships, a trader, who knows. But a pvper would have to be out of his friggin mind to agree with the direction of the game as it stands. Perhaps it might be a good idea for you to re-read my posts Mr Rells, since I paid you the courtesy of reading your giant wall of whine. You did not offer any fresh insights, you did not back up ANY of your comments or statements with evidence of any kind at all and clearly did not read my post properly. I can confidently state that not once did I say I agreed with all of the changes, nor that I was entirely satisfied with the direction of the game. And whilst I do now reside in empire it is more due to the fact that this suits my current available time in real life. I dwelt in both low security space and null sec space for quite some time when I was a new player and continued to do so for many years and found it to be quite satisfying. In fact there is still a great deal of satisfaction to be had living in null sec. I happily confess that CCP have made mistakes, some of which have been rectified, others that haven't, but as I stated before, I recognise the need for (and to be utterly clear here, this does not mean "agree with any and all") changes in an ever changing world. I hope this clarifies things for you. Originally by: Verone BBC Trust are a sack of arses.
Elayae Gallente Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:47:00 - [15] PvP orientated players (or killers) are parasitic on the other types of MMO players. MMO types Although I agree with your points, to get more PvP orientated players you need larger numbers of the other types to get even more PvP players. EVE needs a good basis and balance in all MMO type departments, which has been done pretty good with the division of different security areas in the game. The first step that is going reverse a bit of your point 4 is the new jump drive adjustment, hopefully followed up by a zero security package of new things and goals for the PvP player. Zero security changes
Dalmont Delantee Gallente Shiloh Technologies	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:48:00 - [16] I can see your points, but also agree with the other guys, adapt or die, games change. EVE has so many options, if pvp is the only thing you want to do then its there, you just have to find it. Take comfort in knowing that its probably some pimply faced twit, or 40 year old virgin, who gleens everytime mommy offfers to take them to needle point lessons
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Elayae PvP orientated players (or killers) are parasitic on the other types of MMO players. MMO types Although I agree with your points, to get more PvP orientated players you need larger numbers of the other types to get even more PvP players. EVE needs a good basis and balance in all MMO type departments, which has been done pretty good with the division of different security areas in the game. The first step that is going reverse a bit of your point 4 is the new jump drive adjustment, hopefully followed up by a zero security package of new things and goals for the PvP player. Zero security changes You have it backwards. The PvPers were here before the carebears. And most of them have gone. The jump bridge adjustment is irrelevant and will only aid superalliances, hurting all other smaller alliances. If you want to be an empire dweller that is up to you, but it does make you wholly disqualified to talk about the issues I address in my post. Originally by: Dalmont Delantee I can see your points, but also agree with the other guys, adapt or die, games change. EVE has so many options, if pvp is the only thing you want to do then its there, you just have to find it. As I said to the other person, epire dwelers have no frame of reference to qualify them to talk on issues of 0.0 or pvp. Your statement alone would indicate you have not been out to 0.0 at all. It would also indicate you missed the other themes of the post.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:55:00 - [18] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 15/05/2011 10:37:58 Originally by: Destination SkillQueue I for one am glad to see you whining on the forums and making these terrible threads again for the entertainment of the EVE population. PS. Is your daughter still as hot as she used to be? My daughter is 5 you pedophile. But you knew that of course. You are just a disgusting vermin of an insect pedophile. Fortunately I have ample firearms to protect her from creeps like you. LMAO! I almost forgot about that one. Was a good read back then.
Dalmont Delantee Gallente Shiloh Technologies	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Elayae PvP orientated players (or killers) are parasitic on the other types of MMO players. MMO types Although I agree with your points, to get more PvP orientated players you need larger numbers of the other types to get even more PvP players. EVE needs a good basis and balance in all MMO type departments, which has been done pretty good with the division of different security areas in the game. The first step that is going reverse a bit of your point 4 is the new jump drive adjustment, hopefully followed up by a zero security package of new things and goals for the PvP player. Zero security changes You have it backwards. The PvPers were here before the carebears. And most of them have gone. The jump bridge adjustment is irrelevant and will only aid superalliances, hurting all other smaller alliances. If you want to be an empire dweller that is up to you, but it does make you wholly disqualified to talk about the issues I address in my post. Originally by: Dalmont Delantee I can see your points, but also agree with the other guys, adapt or die, games change. EVE has so many options, if pvp is the only thing you want to do then its there, you just have to find it. As I said to the other person, epire dwelers have no frame of reference to qualify them to talk on issues of 0.0 or pvp. Your statement alone would indicate you have not been out to 0.0 at all. It would also indicate you missed the other themes of the post. Actually I live in 0.0. Thnx bai Take comfort in knowing that its probably some pimply faced twit, or 40 year old virgin, who gleens everytime mommy offfers to take them to needle point lessons
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:58:00 - [20] Edited by: Rells on 15/05/2011 10:58:31 Originally by: Serpents smile Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 15/05/2011 10:37:58 Originally by: Destination SkillQueue I for one am glad to see you whining on the forums and making these terrible threads again for the entertainment of the EVE population. PS. Is your daughter still as hot as she used to be? My daughter is 5 you pedophile. But you knew that of course. You are just a disgusting vermin of an insect pedophile. Fortunately I have ample firearms to protect her from creeps like you. LMAO! I almost forgot about that one. Was a good read back then. Anyone who thinks that is funny is patently sick. That is the reason my house is armed to theteeth of course. Because there are, unfortunately, a lot of psychotic wackos like you two out there. Despite my irritation at the game I know most poeple out there in the eve world are not as disgusting as you. Hopefully you will be caught, or shot by a father, before you hurt a child.

Aeronwen Carys Empire of Dust	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:02:00 - [21] Edited by: Aeronwen Carys on 15/05/2011 11:02:47 Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 15/05/2011 10:58:31 Originally by: Serpents smile Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 15/05/2011 10:37:58 Originally by: Destination SkillQueue I for one am glad to see you whining on the forums and making these terrible threads again for the entertainment of the EVE population. PS. Is your daughter still as hot as she used to be? My daughter is 5 you pedophile. But you knew that of course. You are just a disgusting vermin of an insect pedophile. Fortunately I have ample firearms to protect her from creeps like you. LMAO! I almost forgot about that one. Was a good read back then. Anyone who thinks that is funny is patently sick. That is the reason my house is armed to theteeth of course. Because there are, unfortunately, a lot of psychotic wackos like you two out there. Despite my irritation at the game I know most poeple out there in the eve world are not as disgusting as you. Hopefully you will be caught, or shot by a father, before you hurt a child. You need to chill out and get off the forums mate. I think you've had one too many cups of coffee today. You aren't reading anything anyone has to say, you dismiss anyone who disagrees with you and then start threatening to kill people and hoping they die. Go play Call of Duty for a while, or perhaps you would prefer to go hunting?
Void Kraken	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:06:00 - [22] Rells...? Rells...? Oh, right, 5 day reactivation offer.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:08:00 - [23] Edited by: Rells on 15/05/2011 11:08:20 Originally by: Aeronwen Carys Edited by: Aeronwen Carys on 15/05/2011 11:02:47 Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 15/05/2011 10:58:31 Anyone who thinks that is funny is patently sick. That is the reason my house is armed to theteeth of course. Because there are, unfortunately, a lot of psychotic wackos like you two out there. Despite my irritation at the game I know most poeple out there in the eve world are not as disgusting as you. Hopefully you will be caught, or shot by a father, before you hurt a child. You need to chill out and get off the forums mate. I think you've had one too many cups of coffee today. You aren't reading anything anyone has to say, you dismiss anyone who disagrees with you and then start threatening to kill people and hoping they die. Go play Call of Duty for a while, or perhaps you would prefer to go hunting? I didnt threaten anyone with a different opinion about eve. I threatened those that think the molestation of my 5 year old would be funny. And absolutely I threaten them. They better stay in their respective sludge holes. If they come anywhere close to my children they will find out I am deadly serious. Arguing about a game is one thing. Threatening a 5 year old girl in real life is something I will call out for the sick crap it is. As for gaming, COD is a superfluous, shallow waste of time.
Sorted Highwaymen	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:09:00 - [24] Good post; I know so many that are waiting for the "next game". CoHo and WoT have been helping us pass the time, but something more long term is still missing. I want to get on board with a game whos developers know where they are going and stick with it, and not merrily driving us over the hill to HelloKitty. Substance has been sold out for subs.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:09:00 - [25] Yes, CCP did all wrong. EVE population increased from 40.000 to 360.000, EVE is more diverse and richer than ever before. There are more out-of-game activites like Festivals, Lotteries, Books, Contests etc. than ever before. Yeah, CCP did all wrong and some people know it all better. Not that CCP did all right, no one does! But saying that they did all wrong is pretty messed up.
Dalmont Delantee Gallente Shiloh Technologies	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Aeronwen Carys Edited by: Aeronwen Carys on 15/05/2011 11:02:47 Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 15/05/2011 10:37:58 Originally by: Destination SkillQueue I for one am glad to see you whining on the forums and making these terrible threads again for the entertainment of the EVE population. PS. Is your daughter still as hot as she used to be? My daughter is 5 you pedophile. But you knew that of course. You are just a disgusting vermin of an insect pedophile. Fortunately I have ample firearms to protect her from creeps like you. LMAO! I almost forgot about that one. Was a good read back then. Anyone who thinks that is funny is patently sick. That is the reason my house is armed to theteeth of course. Because there are, unfortunately, a lot of psychotic wackos like you two out there. Despite my irritation at the game I know most poeple out there in the eve world are not as disgusting as you. Hopefully you will be caught, or shot by a father, before you hurt a child. You need to chill out and get off the forums mate. I think you've had one too many cups of coffee today. You aren't reading anything anyone has to say, you dismiss anyone who disagrees with you and then start threatening to kill people and hoping they die. Go play Call of Duty for a while, or perhaps you would prefer to go hunting? Nah it won't be coffee he's drinking, more likely neat moonshine. Any mention of guns always makes me think of redneck eating travellers with their mum/sister in a box under their bed. Maybe I've watched too much X-Files... Take comfort in knowing that its probably some pimply faced twit, or 40 year old virgin, who gleens everytime mommy offfers to take them to needle point lessons
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:10:00 - [27] Edited by: Ghoest on 15/05/2011 11:14:37 Edited by: Ghoest on 15/05/2011 11:12:51 Nothing is "ruined", many still play the game , even though its not ideal - the title is bad. And although things could be better but I doubt most people even agree that some of that stuff is a problem. But I do agree that jump drives made little sense. They pretty much removed hauler as target of pirates, which makes little sense. Imagine if pirates of the 1700s had tried to make a living attcking warships. Thats the silliness we have now. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Aeronwen Carys Empire of Dust	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Dalmont Delantee Nah it won't be coffee he's drinking, more likely neat moonshine. Any mention of guns always makes me think of redneck eating travellers with their mum/sister in a box under their bed. Maybe I've watched too much X-Files... I actually laughed out loud at that X-files stuff, thanks, I needed that Also, I wonder if he hears the soundtracks for Vietnam based war movies and/or the theme music from "The hills have eyes" in his head?
Sorted Highwaymen	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:16:00 - [29] Originally by: Gnulpie Yes, CCP did all wrong. EVE population increased from 40.000 to 360.000, EVE is more diverse and richer than ever before. There are more out-of-game activites like Festivals, Lotteries, Books, Contests etc. than ever before. Yeah, CCP did all wrong and some people know it all better. Not that CCP did all right, no one does! But saying that they did all wrong is pretty messed up. Eve was built on a niche market, they then changed the game to ater to the masses of whining ***gots. Eve has gone down hill in quality, became softer and easier; so it appeals to more people. This is why subs have gone up. From a business standpoint its good, from a loyalty to the origional fan base view point its a big "fufufufu ahahahah monies monies monies"
Darin Ahan Parmana	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:17:00 - [30] Posting in "I don't like something about EVE Online so EVE Online MUST be turning into World of Warcraft" thread #98743. I realize I'm a complete and utter noob since I've only been playing since just before Exodus, so I'm not a bitter, jaded and all-knowing authority myself, but here's a thought: It's 2011. Most of what you're whining about happened in 2003 and 2004. You're saying PvP in EVE turned to crap about seven years ago and it's been a carebear game since. Yeah, right.

Ghoest	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:20:00 - [31] I live less than 50 miles from Home PA. Oddly enough its not really a redneck town. Not that we dont have some here in PA. But yes we all have guns. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Shania Fox	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:20:00 - [32] So they give you 5 days, so you come back to post, even though you almost certainly knew things would have not changed that much. There's a new character creator if that helps 3 main groups to Eve, PvPers, PvEers and a hybrid of both. CCP are a business they have to try and balance between the groups, so there will always be somethings that will not be popular with 1 or possibly 2 of the groups. Games evolve not always in the ways we like, there are some aspects I don't particularly like but I know others do, so I leave it at that. CONCORD probably evolved into it current state because of griefing going on in high sec (started in 2005 but this must have been before that), it's usually the behaviour of the players that instigate such a change.
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:22:00 - [33] Imagine for a second that there is no concord, no level 4 missions and therefore no carebears in game (yep there are also 10x less active accounts but let's ignore that for a second). Would you return then? Did you answer "Yes"? Well then why don't you return right now, and play in 0.0 which still has lots of players, and no carebears? Just how you like it! The only reason I see is that you are jealous of empire dwellers that can earn without playing in 0.0. But is there point in this jealousy? You are not jealous of WoW players are you? Because you don't play WoW. So why are you jealous of high sec dwellers if you don't play there anyway? So as you see there is no logic in your intent. I believe that it is because the real reason you don't play is that you're bored of the game and hence, no matter what changes would CCP make according to your demands, you would cancel in a month of two anyway, since the any games are just not for you any longer.
Valek Noor Amarr Eternal Phoenix Rises	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:23:00 - [34] some nice points, nice post shame its gone off topic a little... Would like to add you forgot one very important event. The ASCN Vs BoB war in which devs were found cheating to win at PVP......... There is no right or wrong, only consequences
Dalmont Delantee Gallente Shiloh Technologies	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Darin Ahan Parmana Posting in "I don't like something about EVE Online so EVE Online MUST be turning into World of Warcraft" thread #98743. I realize I'm a complete and utter noob since I've only been playing since just before Exodus, so I'm not a bitter, jaded and all-knowing authority myself, but here's a thought: It's 2011. Most of what you're whining about happened in 2003 and 2004. You're saying PvP in EVE turned to crap about seven years ago and it's been a carebear game since. Yeah, right. Quoted for truth! Take comfort in knowing that its probably some pimply faced twit, or 40 year old virgin, who gleens everytime mommy offfers to take them to needle point lessons
Serpents smile	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:42:00 - [36] Hey Rells, question even if it may offend you even more, lol, since you don't PLAY this game sans the 5 day reactivation invites, what makes you such an "expert" on how EVE got "killed for the PvPer"? You clearly have no idea how things work these days in 0.0. And if anything, it's the player base that are responsible for how thing turn around these days with PvP, Just think of the giant nap fest called 'NC'. And I wrote 'you clearly have no idea', since you're obviously living in the past. 'When everything was better'. Newsletter for you Rells, EVE evolved. If you don't like it, then please be so kind to silently dissolve out of our game.
Spurty Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:45:00 - [37] Op has rose tinted glasses on. Everything you mention, it got abused. Fizzt!
Zanes Shoubje	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:46:00 - [38] Who the **** plays EVE for the PVP.
Aeronwen Carys Empire of Dust	Posted - 2011.05.15 12:05:00 - [39] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 15/05/2011 10:58:31 Originally by: Serpents smile Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 15/05/2011 10:37:58 Originally by: Destination SkillQueue I for one am glad to see you whining on the forums and making these terrible threads again for the entertainment of the EVE population. PS. Is your daughter still as hot as she used to be? My daughter is 5 you pedophile. But you knew that of course. You are just a disgusting vermin of an insect pedophile. Fortunately I have ample firearms to protect her from creeps like you. LMAO! I almost forgot about that one. Was a good read back then. Anyone who thinks that is funny is patently sick. That is the reason my house is armed to theteeth of course. Because there are, unfortunately, a lot of psychotic wackos like you two out there. Despite my irritation at the game I know most poeple out there in the eve world are not as disgusting as you. Hopefully you will be caught, or shot by a father, before you hurt a child. erm, just wondering A: How anyone here knows you have a five year old daughter unless you told them? and why would you discuss your children with total strangers on an internet game forum. B: If this person actually knew your daughter was only 5 years old. Also, the sensible thing to do would be to report said person for comments that could be considered offensive, rather than publicly threatening to kill them not once, but numerous times. For your own good, seek professional mental health care.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.05.15 12:11:00 - [40] ITT: Some random dude who is absolutely SURE he is a special snowflake, who does not play the game, *****ing and whining that it isn't done in the way he wants. @Rells: I'm sure you think you are some oracle of insight, but you aren't. If you were, you'd be involved, not occasionally jumping in and sniping away. Either grow a pair and play - to effect change - or quit wasting our time. We have enough special snowflakes who actually play, so we really don't care about what you think are the problems or solutions. @CCP: Please quit sending this guy the 5-day reactivation offers. He isn't gonna and wouldn't spend his money to reactivate on his own.

GIGAR Caldari	Posted - 2011.05.15 12:26:00 - [41] tldr; EVE is too easy also I agree with some of it ------------ "I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy
Arec Bardwin	Posted - 2011.05.15 12:29:00 - [42] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue PS. Is your daughter still as hot as she used to be? Oh dear... Not this again.
Lidia Prince Caldari Caldari Aegis	Posted - 2011.05.15 12:40:00 - [43] 1) Bawww, I can't camp and shoot stuff in high-sec even in tanked BSs coz of CONCORD! =( 2) Bawww, noone comes to our system for mining, no fun camping gates there! =( 3) Bawww, noone comes to our system for mission running, no fun camping gates there! =( 4) Bawww, noone goes through our system via normal gates, we can't camp noone! =( Ninja, please. Instead of whining and camping all day you could at least try and, for starters, raid other systems and WHs. Or pew-pew someone in low-secs, it's crowded with wanna-be pirates. And since someone already made dibs on your stuff... CAN I HAS YOUR DAUGHTER?! I'm not a pedo of course, only when she's ready. When she'll be 10 or something.
Zoroa Aulx-Gao Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.05.15 12:48:00 - [44] I must say that reading OP's post is far less irritating than multiple variations of 'u mad trololol', 'baww', 'can i has ur stuff' etc. You made some good points OP.
TravisWB	Posted - 2011.05.15 13:02:00 - [45] Bitter Vet Tears.
Riddick Liddell	Posted - 2011.05.15 13:06:00 - [46] Originally by: ZenSun Things change.. Adapt or die. Another feeble attempt to be hip. Then again, speaking of knock off, wannabe's I see your alliance. To the OP. Its hardware and the nature of PvP that killed EVE, not CCP. You can't "do PvP" for long term. It is in its nature, last man standing and that sort of goes against the whole MMO concept. Everyone talks about the Russian Alliances, they do so well in EVE. They follow all the rules nobody else follows. They don't make "Armor tanking" fleets because EVE is not about tanking. Its about dps. They fit for optimals hrmony. They don't assign roles based on skill sets, they do so based on fps because reality is, its a video game. What is killing EVE? Old age.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.05.15 13:18:00 - [47] I don't have really a problem with jump drives tbh, but as for the rest, the OP is basically correct. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.05.15 13:21:00 - [48] Edited by: Mutnin on 15/05/2011 13:26:20 I realized yesterday that meaningful PVP would likely not return to this game, when I read a topic about incursions. One of the posters said tell them "GF" in local if someone out PVE'd you. The only thing that can be done is carve out some sort of fun or leave the game. CCP is just catering to what the average player wants and the average player is a carebear. The reason all MMO's end up being the same, is they are all based on "grind". EVE is no different, although you still have the opportunity to do your grind in a PVP centric way, but even that is becoming harder and harder. Overall CCP has pushed the ISK faucets of EVE to revolve around shooting little red X's over & over & over again. Gaining your ISk from straight up PVP is almost impossible to sustain with the current blob warfare mentality. This leaves mainly infiltration + theft, scaming and the market as the only true means to create real wealth by PVP. Of those 4, I'm sure ccp will eventually nerf 3 of them into no-existence to keep the average player's happy. In the end carebears will kill this game because they can't help but make it boring. It's just their nature. EVE universe has become more of a litter box than a sandbox, it's just the way it is and CCP isn't going to change it because FoTM the subs are flowing in.
Holy One	Posted - 2011.05.15 13:25:00 - [49] Quote: Those that created eve were visionaries. That's the thing. They weren't. They just copied Diaspora and iterated on it some. BBQ makes me hungry for more...
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.05.15 13:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Mutnin Edited by: Mutnin on 15/05/2011 13:27:33 I realized yesterday that meaningful PVP would likely not return to this game, when I read a topic about incursions. One of the posters said tell them "GF" in local if someone out PVE'd you. The only thing that can be done is carve out some sort of fun or leave the game. CCP is just catering to what the average player wants and the average player is a carebear. The reason all MMO's end up being the same, is they are all based on "grind". EVE is no different, although you still have the opportunity to do your grind in a PVP centric way, but even that is becoming harder and harder. Overall CCP has pushed the ISK faucets of EVE to revolve around shooting little red +'s over & over & over again. Gaining your ISk from straight up PVP is almost impossible to sustain with the current blob warfare mentality. This leaves mainly infiltration + theft, scaming and the market as the only true means to create real wealth by PVP. Of those 4, I'm sure ccp will eventually nerf 3 of them into no-existence to keep the average player's happy. In the end carebears will kill this game because they can't help but make it boring. It's just their nature. EVE universe has become more of a litter box than a sandbox, it's just the way it is and CCP isn't going to change it because FoTM the subs are flowing in. PvP is a negative sum game: wealth is destroyed in every engagement, so it's necessary to have an external source of ISK creation But I wish I wish I wish that EVE had a working bounty hunter system. That would solve SO many issues with the game. Not the least of which would be "how to make ISK PvPing" Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.

KaiDoh Maru Minmatar M'8'S	Posted - 2011.05.15 13:40:00 - [51] Edited by: KaiDoh Maru on 15/05/2011 13:42:16 Originally by: Rells 4) The introduction of Jump drive. Once upon a time alliances made huge convoys of freighters to get critical equipment into 0.0. Those convoys were often attacked by those with the moxy and that required their protection. Supply lines were critical to maintain and the deeper you went in 0.0 the harder it was. After the introduction of jump drives, carriers and jump freighters load up in empire and jump safely to POS shields and stations. Interdiction is pretty much impossible if the logistics people have any idea what they are doing. Strategic warfare was eliminated. Totally agree with everything you say, especially point (4). I'd like to go further by pointing out that before jump bridges and jump drives people had to travel through 0.0 to transport new ships and equipment to their 0.0 base and loot from 0.0 to empire. This created travel pipes that were a haven of small scale / solo pvp that were great for the game. Now once we're through 0.0 entry points we jump bridge to safety. Furthermore, the proliferation of cloaking technology has also hurt the game imho - cloaked warping was great for covert ops who relied on going unseen to scout or transport very small valuable items. This was a niche ship that had next to no combat ability or transport capacity. Now every other ship can warp cloaked - we have cloaking haulers to transport all our carebear goodies with little risk. The tools available to avoid other players have become too great. Now instead of individual players / small groups meeting in 0.0 and having to interact and fight we simply avoid one another. Risk vs reward is totally out of whack and it is hurting the game. I remember a time when I had to fly my hauler or new shiny ship through the gauntlet that was 0.0 and incur a risk of actually losing it (omg I know!). When small groups / solo players roamed 0.0 both hunting targets and providing a target themselves. 0.0 is now more than ever about insta-warping frigates, cloakers or blobs. Small scale and solo pvp is the foundation on which this game is built and it relies on people actually putting themselves in harms way. I remember a time when the way I fitted my ship, the skill points I had accumulated and my individual piloting made a real difference as oppose to the blob warfare eve is saturated in. People wonder why eve has become so stale over recent years but is it any wonder with so many tools available to avoid risk and get into situations where the outcome of a fight isn't always in our favour.
Illwill Bill Talu Shaya Talu Shaya Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 13:55:00 - [52] Edited by: Illwill Bill on 15/05/2011 14:06:58 I'm bored at work, so I'm going to bite, despite it being against my better judgement. While I agree that CONCORD is a flawed mechanic, there is a need for policing of high-security space, seeing as it is impossible for players to take control and police it themselves, like you can do in 0.0. Say whatever you want, but not everyone wants to live in 0.0. I kinda like lowsec as it is, but considering it's current state, turning hisec into a desolate wasteland doesn't seem like a brilliant idea. After all, most players live there. There is no question that the mission loot/drone poo nerf wasn't enough. The way I see it, the entire mineral and mining system needs to be looked at. CCP has an excellent system for distributing belts in WH space, and I can't see why something similar cannot be applied to hisec. Remove belt rats while at it; they don't make any sense anyway. At least not outside their factions' home space. However, making all other space completely dependent on 0.0 would be as absurd as the current situation, so a fair distribution of resources are needed. Remember, 0.0 is not an end-game, but merely another part of the sand-box. Lvl 4 missions aren't worse than any other missions, apart from the fact that they're an even larger ISK faucet. Actually, they're usually just other boring variations of the same task Still, the last time I checked up on the subject, it seemed to the be rat bounties that were the largest faucet, and not the mission rewards themselves. I agree that someone needs to shut a few faucets, but I can't see why you'd need to limit those to lvl 4 missions. When it comes to jump drives, well please read about the latest changes to jump brigdes. I think they will add some of the dynamic you seem to be longing for. The thing that bothers me when I read your posts, is your view on 0.0 as something superior to anything else in this game. Unfortunately, 0.0 is just another section of space, just with a little less concord and gate guns, and a little more Internet spaceship drama. I live in WH space, and I rather like it here. Out here we don't have the ability to seal off gates with 50-man gatecamps (well technically we do, but the WH's would collapse before we all got in position) or to have a safe, docked environment which our enemies do not have access to. I don't complain about this or tell CCP what they did wrong. Instead, I try to adapt and learn, and to have fun in the process. Perhaps you should do the same. CCP is currently looking at 0.0 as a whole. Why don't you come up with some constructive suggestions instead of explaining what they did wrong? Not only will that contribute to a better forum experience for all of us, but your suggestions actually have a chance to be heard. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2011.05.15 14:25:00 - [53] I really shouldn't but... You first argue that things that make the game more safer in no sec space is turning the game towards "carebear" and next you argue that no sec players haven't been allowed to carve out their own kingdoms/empires. Isn't having a kingdom where "you are the law" the epitome of safety for those in charge? Essentially making it a "carebear" haven for those people? And if there aren't any added security for yourself in your own kingdom doesn't that break the whole idea of having carved something out as everybody can trespass as they want? -- Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Lorebook - Mysteries of W-space
Sarmatiko	Posted - 2011.05.15 14:40:00 - [54] Edited by: Sarmatiko on 15/05/2011 14:41:20 Originally by: Arec Bardwin Originally by: Destination SkillQueue PS. Is your daughter still as hot as she used to be? Oh dear... Not this again. Ah thanks for sharing. Just as I thought guy like OP should be cut off from the internet or someday he can go for a walk with beloved gun and craziness in the head.
Fuzzy Wuzzi	Posted - 2011.05.15 15:43:00 - [55] Originally by: Rells So many games purport to be the next best thing in pvp; Shadowbane, Darkfall, Mortal Online, and all of them end up getting flushed down the toilet of carebearism and turned into wow clones. DF got turned into a wow clone? I didn't play it past beta but that was the last thing I expected to happen to it.
Fuzzy Wuzzi	Posted - 2011.05.15 15:52:00 - [56] Originally by: Illwill Bill Instead, I try to adapt and learn, and to have fun in the process. Perhaps you should do the same. CCP is currently looking at 0.0 as a whole. Why don't you come up with some constructive suggestions instead of explaining what they did wrong? Not only will that contribute to a better forum experience for all of us, but your suggestions actually have a chance to be heard. I thought his suggestions were pretty constructive. As someone who played UO in its glory years, and all the games he listed, I completely understand his desire for interesting PvP as it is the most exhilarating experience you will get out of a game. I like the whole idea of making 0.0 a place where you can get rich a lot quicker if you're willing to risk going there.
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.15 15:57:00 - [57] CCP basically removed the entire Risk vs Reward dynamic from EvE. Now you are better off being a carebear in empire for the most part. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Royaldo Gallente Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch. Sev3rance	Posted - 2011.05.15 16:03:00 - [58] Dont you make this kind of thread once a year? Take the leap man and quit for good. You will feel better. And for the record. NPC corps and plex ruined it.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2011.05.15 16:22:00 - [59] You can't have a economy 99% player driven, 99% of the items used in by players are made by players, and the material used to make those items are gathered by players with ZERO locations where you can simply buy them from NPCs. In EVE If you remove ALL safeguards for carebears you instantly break the economy as not everyone wants to PVP, some just want to build an empire based on industry, and have zero interest in killing. You break carebears will to play the game you start to lose all materials, all industrials, all tycoons.. How long is it you think PVP will happen and quickly it narrow down when PVP players run out of supplies? So as much as PVP is loved, you simply MUST have carebears and industrials to make PVP last. To keep carebears you need to make space safe for them to a reasonable point. You can go an kill carebears left and right as much as you like, but there are consequence. CONCORD give carebears the sense of protection, and a sense of revenge for when they are ganked they feel better knowing that Concord will destroy those that killed him. You want PVP without consequence, do it in 0.0... Oh what? 0.0 too hard for you because those in 0.0 know how to fit ships, and have 20mil SP in combat skills.. learn to play PVP better loser, no free and easy kills for you. The only points I agree with is Zydrine and Mega to high-sec. Level 4 missions. Alliances need Jumpdrives, there is so much evidence that jumpdrives have improved 0.0 combat life it's not funny. You want to know a CRAPPY PVP area's definition is? A part of space in which alliances hold the same space for years, alliance never move, never get smaller, never get larger.. THAT is crap PVP. Since jumpdrives and massive fleets are in game there is space that changes from time to time. THAT is combat. THAT is PVP.. Live with it. Amarr for Life
Fuzzy Wuzzi	Posted - 2011.05.15 16:35:00 - [60] Originally by: SencneS In EVE If you remove ALL safeguards for carebears you instantly break the economy as not everyone wants to PVP, some just want to build an empire based on industry, and have zero interest in killing. You break carebears will to play the game you start to lose all materials, all industrials, all tycoons.. I don't think anyone was suggesting to remove all the safeguards? I think we can all agree that rewards currently for going to 0.0 space doesn't match the risk.

Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2011.05.15 16:56:00 - [61] There are still tens of thousands of people who're actively PvPing in game and who're perfectly happy. True, some forms of PvP have taken a bit of a beating but that's life. Adapt or die. CCP should just take you off their mailing list so that the rest of us don't have to listen to this bitter, misinformed, mindless dribble every time they give a free 5 day reactivation out. Go back to picking flowers in a field in Warcraft or whatever you do when you're not crying for attention on these forums when you can get a free handout of game time. Honestly, if you're so bitter over Eve, get lost and play something else and let the rest of the community enjoy the game they choose to play. >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Pesky LaRue Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2011.05.15 17:12:00 - [62] Originally by: Verone There are still tens of thousands of people who're actively PvPing in game and who're perfectly happy. True, some forms of PvP have taken a bit of a beating but that's life. Adapt or die. CCP should just take you off their mailing list so that the rest of us don't have to listen to this bitter, misinformed, mindless dribble every time they give a free 5 day reactivation out. Go back to picking flowers in a field in Warcraft or whatever you do when you're not crying for attention on these forums when you can get a free handout of game time. Honestly, if you're so bitter over Eve, get lost and play something else and let the rest of the community enjoy the game they choose to play. Whilst I don't disagree with all of Rells' points, I agree with almost everything Verone says here. Rells, stop coming back. The game will NEVER be what you want it to be, let it go and move on. Seriously. .
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.05.15 17:16:00 - [63] Originally by: Malcanis I don't have really a problem with jump drives tbh, but as for the rest, the OP is basically correct. Are you part of a 0.0 alliance? Im curious. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 17:21:00 - [64] Originally by: Jowen Datloran I really shouldn't but... You first argue that things that make the game more safer in no sec space is turning the game towards "carebear" and next you argue that no sec players haven't been allowed to carve out their own kingdoms/empires. Isn't having a kingdom where "you are the law" the epitome of safety for those in charge? Essentially making it a "carebear" haven for those people? And if there aren't any added security for yourself in your own kingdom doesn't that break the whole idea of having carved something out as everybody can trespass as they want? Why shouldnt you? Its a valid question. The difference is that players are in control of the security, not some arbitrary and indefeatable game mechanic. Other players can then try to disrupt that kingdom and its security. The content is being generated by the players, not the game developer.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 17:37:00 - [65] Edited by: Rells on 15/05/2011 17:37:19 Originally by: Fuzzy Wuzzi I don't think anyone was suggesting to remove all the safeguards? I think we can all agree that rewards currently for going to 0.0 space doesn't match the risk. I'm suggesting nothing of the sort. There are thousands of suggestions that have been made over the years that could reinvigorate PvP but they require an attitude change of shifting eve from being a carebear reactive effort to a visionary, player focused effort. Its the change in focus that needs to happen first. Instead of sitting around saying, "How can we get people to walk in stations?" They need to sit down and ask, "What's wrong about PvP and how do we fix it." However I fear there are no more PVP centric developers left in eve so they wouldn't have any idea what is wrong with it. Originally by: Verone There are still tens of thousands of people who're actively PvPing in game and who're perfectly happy. True, some forms of PvP have taken a bit of a beating but that's life. Adapt or die. Wow. Blast from the past. Assuming the character wasn't sold of course. You were one of the people constantly flaming predictions that came true over and over again. It was people like you that said "oh dont be stupid, concord will never be invincible" and other similar things. How many more years will it take you to admit we turned out to be right all along? Originally by: Verone CCP should just take you off their mailing list so that the rest of us don't have to listen to this bitter, misinformed, mindless dribble every time they give a free 5 day reactivation out. You chose to read the thread. You chose to reply. Your own fault. Stop blaming others for your stupidity. No one put a gun to your head and said "read and reply." You are the cause of your own misery. And as usual neither you nor the other flamers here affect me in the slightest. They present a comical vision something like some spittle spewing moron cursing at a zen monk while he merely sits placidly and smiles. The reality is that none of you are important to my life, so I don't give a darn what any of the people here think about me. Originally by: Verone Go back to picking flowers in a field in Warcraft or whatever you do when you're not crying for attention on these forums when you can get a free handout of game time. Did you read the post? Anyone who had would realize I wouldnt be playing wow. Or are you just too dumb to figure that out? Ok, Ok ... my bad ... I will spell it out for you. WoW is the biggest peice of crap, timesinking gimick on the MMOG market. Good enough or do I have to put it in braille? Originally by: Verone Honestly, if you're so bitter over Eve, get lost and play something else and let the rest of the community enjoy the game they choose to play. Bitter over a video game? Nah. I wouldn't qualify it as that. Disappointed is more accurate. I have had a life sufficiently filled with emotional and personal pain and ultimate triumph that Eve doesn't posses the ability to embitter me. What is interesting is that people will dismiss honestly offered criticism without countering it in any way, rather attacking the character of the poster. Is it possible that people have lost the ability to intelligently debate anything? As for you Verone, your opinions and posts have always, for years, been part of the problem. -- Founder of Agony Unleashed but NOT currently CEO of it. Opinions expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily represent opinions of AGONY.
Voith	Posted - 2011.05.15 17:44:00 - [66] Eve has always been a shadow of what it could be. Allowing multiple characters or accounts per person guaranteed that.
Eyup Mi'duck Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.15 17:48:00 - [67] Pure PvP is at the top of the EVE foodchain. PvP'ers carnivorous activity doesn't actually create anything, it just consumes and redistributes stuff made by the herbivores and pond life lower down the food chain. And yes, it takes a lot of herbivores to feed one carnivore - hence the EVE demographics and CCP's motivation to help carebears. Without carebearing, EvE's economy would grind to a halt. IMHO it was the introduction of bubbles that ruined a whole chunk of the game. It threw up a fence around 0.0 that has stopped much of the traffic in and out of nullsec, and created the need for jumpdrives. Being able to leapfrog along critical traderoutes has killed many types of gameplay. Now nullsec is only really viable with a jumpdrive and connections. Yes I am an 8 year old player, and now live self sufficiently in empire space, getting my high-end mins from L4 drone missions, and additional revenue from manufacturing, PI and research. It was the bubbles drove me to this. It was either that, or become a serf in a mega-corp wracked by political ego-maniacs and high tax rates. Not my style. C'est la vie, yes it could be so much better but it's still a damn good game.  Get over it!  Learn and move on. 
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 17:55:00 - [68] Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck IMHO it was the introduction of bubbles that ruined a whole chunk of the game. It threw up a fence around 0.0 that has stopped much of the traffic in and out of nullsec, and created the need for jumpdrives. Being able to leapfrog along critical traderoutes has killed many types of gameplay. Now nullsec is only really viable with a jumpdrive and connections. In the past 4 days I have flown a merlin around 7 different regions in 0.0 without being touched. Carebears have always had an over-inflated view of the danger of PvP. Making no ship be ever catchable is not the answer, in fact it adds to the problem. COmplete safety should never be hand anywhere in Eve. That was the fervent mantra of CCP at release and anyone who doubted it was flamed to a charcoal powder. It is that desire for complete safety and enrichment of the carebear that is at the heart of the problems. And, as I pointed out before, billions of items were made when the game wasnt safe pretty much anywhere. To think they wouldnt be would be a fatal underestimation of the player base. Sort of like when CCP came out with titans and said "dont be stupid, there will only be 2 or 3 in all of eve." Those of us that said, there will be hundreds as the players will grind to build them, were flamed to hell and back. -- Founder of Agony Unleashed but NOT currently CEO of it. Opinions expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily represent opinions of AGONY.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 17:58:00 - [69] Originally by: Fuzzy Wuzzi Originally by: Rells So many games purport to be the next best thing in pvp; Shadowbane, Darkfall, Mortal Online, and all of them end up getting flushed down the toilet of carebearism and turned into wow clones. DF got turned into a wow clone? I didn't play it past beta but that was the last thing I expected to happen to it. So strip away the graphics. Strip away the sound developments. Boil the game down to its basic gameplay. Once you get there, DAoC, EQ, AC, WOW and the rest become virtually identical. I challenge you to come up with a single fundamental difference. -- Founder of Agony Unleashed but NOT currently CEO of it. Opinions expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily represent opinions of AGONY.
Trocent Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2011.05.15 18:14:00 - [70] Originally by: ZenSun Adapt or die. This. Thank you. I was beginning to feel like people did not live by this motto anymore.

EmoKidWithKantana Snuff Box	Posted - 2011.05.15 18:16:00 - [71] Originally by: Rells Wall of text Hah! i was sure you had quit playing Rells! I have fond memmories of you playing docking games and being terrible with a buffer-falcon a few years ago, it's good to see that you have not turned any brighter since! Keep being useless <3
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.15 18:24:00 - [72] Originally by: SencneS In EVE If you remove ALL safeguards for carebears you instantly break the economy as not everyone wants to PVP, some just want to build an empire based on industry, and have zero interest in killing. You break carebears will to play the game you start to lose all materials, all industrials, all tycoons.. Actually, carebears are better off in a game with pvp everywhere. True there would be less of them since most people are sheeple and can't survive much of anything. Quote: How long is it you think PVP will happen and quickly it narrow down when PVP players run out of supplies? They wouldn't run out of supplies at all. PvPers, at least the ones not suiciding Hulks in Domain, know full well they need industrialists. It is the industrialists that don't seem to realize they need the pvpers and it is hurting them more than an explosion ever could. Quote: To keep carebears you need to make space safe for them to a reasonable point. You can go an kill carebears left and right as much as you like, but there are consequence. CONCORD give carebears the sense of protection, and a sense of revenge for when they are ganked they feel better knowing that Concord will destroy those that killed him. In my experience the carebear doesn't give a rats ass that the ganker lost his ship too. He just turns into the most violent verbal sociopath known to EvE. Quote: You want PVP without consequence, do it in 0.0... Oh what? 0.0 too hard for you because those in 0.0 know how to fit ships, and have 20mil SP in combat skills.. learn to play PVP better loser, no free and easy kills for you. There are consequences to pvping in 0.0. They are just player driven, not godmode NPCs. Quote: Alliances need Jumpdrives, there is so much evidence that jumpdrives have improved 0.0 combat life it's not funny. If by that you mean that only alliances with brown noses, big lips, or 100+ Supercaps can even claim space... then yes. Quote: You want to know a CRAPPY PVP area's definition is? A part of space in which alliances hold the same space for years, alliance never move, never get smaller, never get larger.. THAT is crap PVP. Since jumpdrives and massive fleets are in game there is space that changes from time to time. THAT is combat. THAT is PVP.. Live with it. The only time 0.0 has ever been more stagnant than it is right now was before anyone was ever out there. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
FeralShadow NME1	Posted - 2011.05.15 18:43:00 - [73] Rells, I agree with basically all of your points, especially the one about the supply lines. I remember alliances slowly falling apart because they couldn't get the people required to run freighters into null sec to support their mates. I'm not sure getting rid of jump drives is the answer (dreads and carriers and titans and moms sure need them still) but maybe make it so freighter convoys make a comeback. It's too easy for a single person or two people to just jump mass loads of items out to null sec with the only possible victim being the cyno alt. _______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
Bane Necran Furtim Vigilans	Posted - 2011.05.15 18:50:00 - [74] While i agree with some of what you said about 0.0, simply wanting it to be easier to blow people up is pretty shortsighted in terms of game development. You can already attack people anywhere providing you wardec them, don't mind losing a ship to CONCORD, or hunt them down within their 0.0 space, making it even easier will cause all the easy victims to just quit the game because they get blown up every couple minutes instead of every couple weeks. There has to be a happy medium. PvP enthusiasts generally prefer easy victims over fighting eachother. The game has to accommodate the prey portion of the playerbase just a little in order to keep them around.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.15 19:01:00 - [75] Originally by: Bane Necran While i agree with some of what you said about 0.0, simply wanting it to be easier to blow people up is pretty shortsighted in terms of game development. You can already attack people anywhere providing you wardec them, don't mind losing a ship to CONCORD, or hunt them down within their 0.0 space, making it even easier will cause all the easy victims to just quit the game because they get blown up every couple minutes instead of every couple weeks. There has to be a happy medium. PvP enthusiasts generally prefer easy victims over fighting eachother. The game has to accommodate the prey portion of the playerbase just a little in order to keep them around. You appear to know nothing about pvpers. Ganks bore them. They are perpetually in search of a good fight. Sure there are people that blob up but usually that is for other reasons such as the fact that blobbing is the only way to feasibly protect assets in 0.0. Your perspective is one of a carebear speaking about things he doesn't understand. -- Founder of Agony Unleashed but NOT currently CEO of it. Opinions expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily represent opinions of AGONY.
Fuzzy Wuzzi	Posted - 2011.05.15 19:06:00 - [76] The whole idea that pvpers need carebears for supplies is pretty ludicrous. Right now, cheapest/easiest way is to buy them from carebears because they have driven prices down with their massive amounts of supply. But, if the prices kept rising and got to the point where it would be cheaper/easier to make an industrial toon and supply your pvper main, then that's what would be done. Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck Without carebearing, EvE's economy would grind to a halt. I highly doubt it, just the people who spend 24/7 at a station refreshing their market orders would be gone.
Fuzzy Wuzzi	Posted - 2011.05.15 19:08:00 - [77] Originally by: Rells You appear to know nothing about pvpers. Ganks bore them. They are perpetually in search of a good fight. Exactly. There is absolutely nothing exciting about being in a blob and killing one solo ship. Gate camping = the most boring form of pvp, ever.
Bane Necran Furtim Vigilans	Posted - 2011.05.15 19:12:00 - [78] Edited by: Bane Necran on 15/05/2011 19:13:30 Originally by: Rells appear to know nothing about pvpers. Ganks bore them. They are perpetually in search of a good fight. Sure there are people that blob up but usually that is for other reasons such as the fact that blobbing is the only way to feasibly protect assets in 0.0. Your perspective is one of a carebear speaking about things he doesn't understand. Most people say 'gf' to everything, including completely one sided engagements. Gathering pages of Killmails is the driving force behind PvP for the majority, not some pursuit of good and fair fights. I know there's a few PvP enthusiasts which aren't like that, and prefer a fight that isn't completely one sided, but even if all your changes were implemented there would still be hardly any of those.
Fuzzy Wuzzi	Posted - 2011.05.15 19:15:00 - [79] Originally by: Bane Necran Gathering pages of Killmails is the driving force behind PvP for the majority, not some pursuit of good and fair fights. I think that's because it's just so damn rare to find a fair fight these days... maybe if it were easier that wouldn't be the case.
Solhild	Posted - 2011.05.15 19:36:00 - [80] Originally by: Dalmont Delantee I can see your points, but also agree with the other guys, adapt or die, games change. EVE has so many options, if pvp is the only thing you want to do then its there, you just have to find it. This.

FeralShadow NME1	Posted - 2011.05.15 19:57:00 - [81] Edited by: FeralShadow on 15/05/2011 19:57:21 Honestly I dont think anybody here is saying things that are "make it easier to kill people". We simply want to make it so the people who are doing logistics, etc. have to WORK for it, instead of cynoing into a POS that you can't feasably attack, rinsing and repeating. Even if the logistics freighter had to have 20 BS gang to guard it and nobody could touch that "blob" it'd still be better than cynoing the logistics as current because then the 21 people are actually working at it and have to take risks. It's the OPPORTUNITY, not so much the actual killing. _______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
Xtreem Gallente Fire Mandrill	Posted - 2011.05.15 20:02:00 - [82] long time no see!! hey rells!
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.15 20:04:00 - [83] Rells, You've done all this before. Many times before. You come to the forums raging on how carebears have inappropriately touched you and how because of it, you will now quit the game for good, only to reappear months later spewing the same hateful **. You've made it clear. You loath carebears. Time after time you come back professing this over and over again threatening to quit. This is not your first time. 50 years from now when Eve finally dies you'll come back talking ** on how carebears killed Eve and how they caused the floods of 2020. Here's some friendly advice. Don't let the hate consume you. You're going to give yourself ulcers raging about us. I honestly think it would do you good if you quit (for real this time) and play something different that you may enjoy and be satisfied paying for. Eve is obviously not the game for you. For your own sake, move on. It's time. Don't you think? Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Voith	Posted - 2011.05.15 20:07:00 - [84] Originally by: Fuzzy Wuzzi The whole idea that pvpers need carebears for supplies is pretty ludicrous. Right now, cheapest/easiest way is to buy them from carebears because they have driven prices down with their massive amounts of supply. But, if the prices kept rising and got to the point where it would be cheaper/easier to make an industrial toon and supply your pvper main, then that's what would be done. Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck Without carebearing, EvE's economy would grind to a halt. I highly doubt it, just the people who spend 24/7 at a station refreshing their market orders would be gone. There was a time when there was almost no carebears because Concord could be tanked. I for one did not enjoy paying 50million for a cruiser.
Waaaaaagggh	Posted - 2011.05.15 20:19:00 - [85] if you remove the crutches like this... you make a game with an insane learning curve even more insane. good luck getting anyone to play it. Making eve harder (undock and die puny noobling!) will cause more new players to go play wow. Is that what you want?
Captain Megadeath	Posted - 2011.05.15 20:41:00 - [86] Originally by: Voith There was a time when there was almost no carebears because Concord could be tanked. I for one did not enjoy paying 50million for a cruiser. This, plus the fact that the Eve pop was around 5000'ish
Venessa Albosa	Posted - 2011.05.15 22:55:00 - [87] meh 0.0 is for the weak -1.0 is where the real boys live
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.15 23:28:00 - [88] Originally by: Venessa Albosa meh 0.0 is for the weak -1.0 is where the real boys live Are those the boys surrounded by bigger boys protecting them or the boys that cloak and go afk? ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Venessa Albosa	Posted - 2011.05.15 23:39:00 - [89] There arent that many big boys in -1.0 and I highly doubt they do much protecting
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.15 23:41:00 - [90] Too busy standing behind their leaders? cough ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide

Venessa Albosa	Posted - 2011.05.15 23:52:00 - [91] Edited by: Venessa Albosa on 15/05/2011 23:52:35 I bet you havent figured out yet that -1.0 space is where wormhole'eers live and that you think im talking about nullsec
Uuali	Posted - 2011.05.16 00:19:00 - [92] Hmpf, constant sov war, cta and mega alliances with pet corps killed it for me. Nothing but hurry up and wait and the one ***** in every corp ***ing at everybody else for not jumping when some bigwig says "how high". Null sec is a sov game. Most people don't want to battle for sov when they come on. That is ALL it really is especially after the sov mechanics were changed.
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.16 01:23:00 - [93] Originally by: Venessa Albosa I bet you havent figured out yet that -1.0 space is where wormhole'eers live and that you think im talking about nullsec The first rule of W-space is you don't talk about W-space. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Barbelo Valentinian Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.05.16 01:49:00 - [94] Edited by: Barbelo Valentinian on 16/05/2011 01:56:22 Thought provoking stuff. I agree with some of the points Rells makes. But, some ruminations ... I think the truth of the matter is simply that the game was so sketchy and so under-populated when it was first put together that it suited a certain kind of immersive, realistic PvP. The early adopters had a certain kind of mentality that was attracted to that vibe, and they were the ones who supported the game in its lean years. But actually CCP's intent all along was probably to create a more fleshed-out, full-on s-f sim that appealed to a broader market (and quite rightly so). A dangerous s-f universe, to be sure, always risky, but more fleshed-out and full of content than it originally was. Rells mistakes that early lack of content for intentional "sandbox" design that was meant to put content-creation in the hands of the players. No: it was just a sketchy game to begin with. Certainly player-driven content was always part of the vision, but the broader vision was more like multiplayer Elite, with a lot of dev-made content too. So two things happened in tandem: as more "carebear" elements (in reality, the game being filled out as the devs had originally intended) were introduced, the game got more popular (it is after all the best s-f sim available). At the same time, the open PvP aspect, while it's responsible for EVE's USP (emotional engagement and heavy adrenalin jags), also attracted a certain type of griefer mentality. These two elements were in tension. The asshats had to be kept in check. Rells thinks "PvP-er" means the knightly kind of PvP-er who's looking for good fights. To most carebears, "PvP-er" means "asshat", because that's the kind of "PvP-er" most of them encounter. The upshot of it all is that now you have two types of "carebear" - high sec PvE-er and null sec PvP-er. And then you have the influx of asshats, plus a small remnant of the original "knightly" (or "pirately" ) early PvP adopters, in low sec. The "real" PvP-ers (who form the majority of PvP-ers in EVE) are in 0.0 "carebearing" away in their own safe spaces, botting and blobbing. The asshats are also in low sec, or they gatecamp, or play silly games with n00bs in Empire, but are kept in reasonable check by CONCORD. Perhaps, at the end of the day, there are just too many people playing it for the size of the Universe that it is (it's not as immersive anymore and doesn't feel like the kind of wild, open space it felt like in the beginning, with brave adventurers carving out their own destiny - it's all convoluted, cloying politics, just like in real life). Rells says in the early days materiel was made even though it was a harsh PvP environment. Again, I submit that that may simply be an artefact of there having being less players in those halcyon days. ***** "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
Hermann Fegelein Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.16 01:50:00 - [95] No offense but that is seriously what the OP sounded like. For each of his points he tried to point fingers at CCP and carebears. Ironically carebears make the ships and modules that the PVP side of EVE use. No carebears= no ships= no PVP. ------------------------------------------------ Brigen sie mich Fegelein! FEGELEIN! FEGELEIN FEGELEIN!
Fuzzy Wuzzi Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.05.16 04:41:00 - [96] Originally by: Hermann Fegelein No pvpers= no demand for ships= no carebears. Fixed. In my experience pvpers are a lot more resourceful than carebears and can easily figure out how to supply themselves. It'd just be more expensive without bears.
flank steak	Posted - 2011.05.16 04:51:00 - [97] If 0.0 isnt your thing anymore then maybe you should spend your 5 days trying things that CCP has added to the game that improves PvP elements instead of *****ing about it. Why dont you go gank people in there C1 WHs and loot their sites? Oh wait its because 0.0 iS wHaTs SuPeR c00l
Nyabinghi Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2011.05.16 05:09:00 - [98] Edited by: Nyabinghi on 16/05/2011 05:14:09 As for Concord I always felt that it needed to evolve. For the criminal Concord is simply an inconvenience at best. Low sec gate guns can be tanked. Low sec criminal pilots merely have to wait out the rather short 15 minute aggression timer to be able to get around free and clear as if they were no longer a hostile criminal. Criminals can raise their sec status by ratting and doing missions which are rewarding endeavors anyways. Suicide ganking obviously does not have significant drawbacks nor does smart bombing at low sec gates. For anyone who desires to take on the criminal element in low sec it doesn't matter how notorious the criminal/crop/alliance is, what their sec status is, that they might have significant bounties on them, that they are obviously there at that very moment to commit a criminal act, you cannot touch them without being treated like a criminal by Concord yourself. You cannot preemptively do anything but first must wait till the damage is already done. I think the player base is strong enough now that more control of policing EVE could be handed over to the players away from the rather primitive Concord. I'm pretty sure by this you'd have more active PVPers out and about. I've seen Alliance space in 0.0 made safe by way of active players policing, much more so than Concord in low sec. As for blob warfare I don' think anyone likes it. I appreciate CCP wanting to encourage teamwork but as it stands now it's like a whole squadron of B-52s coming to a knife fight. Solo PVP is almost completely dead and it looks like small gang warfare is headed that way too. Players don't want to take the risks and so wait till they can 4 to 1 any possible opposition or otherwise push some giant "I-Win" button. I don't know what it would take to encourage players to solo or small gang PVP as oppose to blob warfare, to take risks, CCP would have to make such attractive again. These days, in many places it's not even worth poking your nose into low sec unless you've brought an armada with you to deal with the potential over sized gate camp on the other side.
Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp White Angels.	Posted - 2011.05.16 05:21:00 - [99] Edited by: Elzon1 on 16/05/2011 05:25:48 Originally by: Rells 1) The creation of CONCORD. Concord was supposed to be this mild mannered police force when it was created but the developers went to great pain to tell us that they were not invincible and that they could be defeated. Many of us screamed that the introduction of CONCORD would invariably lead to them becoming ubiquitous and undefeatable. We argued that once introduced the non-pvpers would demand that they be more and more effective until they were invincible. We were, of course, flamed out of existence, excoriated as being irrational and overreacting. I agree with this and I think Concord should be player supplied (ships,modules,etc.). Insurance rates should be determined by insurance premium compared to ship death rates. Also, you shouldn't get your insurance payout if you get popped by concord. Insurance really shouldn't be applicable to anyone not in highsec as highsec is where concord can protect you. Anyone in lowsec or nullsec will be exacerbating the ship death rates and therefore affecting insurance premiums. So basically, you should only get your insurance payout if concord fails to protect your ship from being destroyed by another player in highsec. So, if you get popped in lowsec, nullsec, or from getting popped because you were ganking in highsec you shouldn't get a payout. Insurance would therefore be subject to ship type death rate and ship construction costs. Players could supply concord by selling to concord buy orders. Concord would construct their own stuff and distribute it to forces in various areas. Concord could possibly need convoys to distribute resources to various areas, something to pop. The rate of concord ship deaths would be an added cost to the insurance premiums according to their respective insured ship types. Almost forgot, concord's capabilities should be comparable to what players can accomplish with their fitting and battle tactics. Edit: Concord would only buy enough to resupply their destroyed ships, modules, etc. Buy orders would be according to market value of destroyed items. In addition, insurance prices would change once every 3 months or sooner to reflect market prices, CCP was supposed to be doing this and it seems they haven't. I don't know where, I don't know when... but something awful is going to happen xD
Eian	Posted - 2011.05.16 05:27:00 - [100] Originally by: Xavier Isaacson Originally by: Koss Rells Originally by: Xavier Isaacson Your stuff, I can haz? How original. Only a feeble mind could think of such a reply to such a post. Just making a placeholder for a longer comment is all. Also it could be argued that only a feeble mind offers nothing new, which is pretty much sums up the entirety of your massive post. Inferiority complex much? Haha ****ing tool.

Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.05.16 06:24:00 - [101] i'd love to remove zydrine and megacyte from drone loots, I'd love to mine them in 0.0 and form a cartel. Seriously, jump drives and compounds ruin my null game. Uhhm, I weren't around before Concord and lvl 4 missions, I am not huge fan of either, so... I wish that missions paid more, but you had a limit on how many you can be given.
Fuzzy Wuzzi Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.05.16 06:44:00 - [102] Originally by: Opertone Seriously, jump drives and compounds ruin my null game. Was jump drives a feature that was requested or something? Was traveling through a bunch of gates, regardless of whether they were camped or not, just too tedious for people?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.16 07:57:00 - [103] No, the cat cant be put back in the bag. Concord cant be ditched now, nor can we restore the old market paradigms. We can, however, change the focus of development to pvp, give players more tools to pupulate 0.0 space and carve out a niche, nerf jump drives to reinstate logistical warfare, and massively increase 0.0 so that empire is nothing compared to the riches that can be obtained in 0.0. There have been hundreds of proposals on the board to do all of these things. Unfortunately most replyers to this thread are carebears. Not surprising since many, if not most, pvpers have left the game. Carebears cant see past their own preconcieved notions and inappropriate moral judgements of online game combat. And despite their claim to non-violence in game, they are some of the nastiest people on the forums. They simply dont want to have that ever come back to haunt them i suppose. -- Founder of Agony Unleashed but NOT currently CEO of it. Opinions expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily represent opinions of AGONY.
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.05.16 08:36:00 - [104] Edited by: Azhpol on 16/05/2011 08:38:53 Originally by: Rells I don't give a darn what any of the people here think about me. If this was true you wouldn't talk so much, or bother with statements how you don't care about what people think of you. As a matter of fact, if you didn't care you wouldn't even respond to the obvious trolls Originally by: Rells Is it possible that people have lost the ability to intelligently debate anything? Quite. After all, in order to debate you would have to be able to admit to being wrong, and no one in this thread appears to be able to do that. If you don't admit you are wrong about anything, you aren't intelligently debating, you are arguing, and you know what they say about arguing on the internet. You also might want to try decoupling your points and accept that some of them might be wrong in the game as it exists today, even tho you think they are destroying your personal gameplay. Oh, and btw, 4 days in 0.0 flying around in a merlin? Did you consider that you weren't actually a threat alone, and your killmail would have been almost embarrassing to post while risking being hotdropped, and are therefor not worth engaging? Might want to understand current tactics before you assume its totally safe. Try doing that in a ship worth something, thats catch-able, and see how long you last. Btw, if you want the old eve back with all its wonder and glory, go play Perpetuum Online, I understand it was made by BoB players who didn't like the fact that eve was evolving and had left them behind, much like yourself. You might just like it there(oh and its cheaper than eve too!) TL;DR: If you want a debate, learn the rules, and til then go find a game that caters to your snowflake self. Edit: Don't mistake this for disagreement with all your points, not many players and almost no pvpers are actually happy with the state of the game right now. Its just that going backwards isn't the answer, and you will never gain help with the attitude you display. The moment you threatened physical harm to someone for flaming you(and thats all the daughter remark in this particular thread was) you lost all credibility. I recommend a new character if you want anyone to ever take you serious again. ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main!
Scorpii Orion	Posted - 2011.05.16 08:39:00 - [105] Yet Another Bitter Vet Thread
Scorpii Orion	Posted - 2011.05.16 08:46:00 - [106] Originally by: Rells 3) Introduction of the level 4 mission. This was a carebears dream. The carebear could patiently work himself up billions of isk with very little in danger. It also presented a further reason to avoid 0.0 like the plague. Why risk ratting expensive rats in 0.0 when you could burn through missions in peace in high sec. 0.0 went from being the end game to being a 99% complete wasteland. There are 2 or three areas in all of 0.0 now that are worth even owning. The rest of it is a glorified WOW arena. Without level 4 missions, we all would be flying t1 frigates with empty pockets. You do realise, that money have to be bumbed into the system, otherwise system begins to crash... There isn't even nearly enough belt rats or anomalies in 0.0 to feed all mission runners. Also, why in earth 0.0 should be the most populated area instead of safe empire space? Outlaw space is as it should, quite empty and dangerous space and high security space filled with travellers.
The Old Chap	Posted - 2011.05.16 08:48:00 - [107] Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Perhaps, at the end of the day, there are just too many people playing it for the size of the Universe that it is (it's not as immersive anymore and doesn't feel like the kind of wild, open space it felt like in the beginning, with brave adventurers carving out their own destiny - it's all convoluted, cloying politics, just like in real life). THIS, and: Originally by: Nyabinghi As for blob warfare I don' think anyone likes it. I appreciate CCP wanting to encourage teamwork but as it stands now it's like a whole squadron of B-52s coming to a knife fight. Solo PVP is almost completely dead and it looks like small gang warfare is headed that way too. THIS. Just about sums it up. I'd love to get rid of the mega-alliances and encourage a more frontier-like environment for scallywags and scumbags.
Scorpii Orion	Posted - 2011.05.16 08:49:00 - [108] Originally by: Rells Unfortunately most replyers to this thread are carebears. Ohh, 'im so 1337 pvpeeeer' card at the table!
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.05.16 08:53:00 - [109] Originally by: Scorpii Orion Also, why in earth 0.0 should be the most populated area instead of safe empire space? Outlaw space is as it should, quite empty and dangerous space and high security space filled with travellers. While from a realism perspective you are right, thats not very game-like, and invincible police who know your every move aren't very realistic either. We need Concord, but if your gonna make an argument that is nominally based on realism, Concord should not have a 100% catch rate, which they do. ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main!
Scorpii Orion	Posted - 2011.05.16 08:55:00 - [110] Originally by: Azhpol Originally by: Scorpii Orion Also, why in earth 0.0 should be the most populated area instead of safe empire space? Outlaw space is as it should, quite empty and dangerous space and high security space filled with travellers. While from a realism perspective you are right, thats not very game-like, and invincible police who know your every move aren't very realistic either. We need Concord, but if your gonna make an argument that is nominally based on realism, Concord should not have a 100% catch rate, which they do. So, you can already suicide gank everything in the game. You cry that you should get away with it without loss? Seriously with insurance your loss is like, 1-2 m ISK anyway.. Griefing and pvp isn't the same thing...

Vaju Katru	Posted - 2011.05.16 09:19:00 - [111] Put LvL4 missions in lowsec. Problem solved.
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.05.16 10:45:00 - [112] Originally by: Scorpii Orion Originally by: Azhpol Originally by: Scorpii Orion Also, why in earth 0.0 should be the most populated area instead of safe empire space? Outlaw space is as it should, quite empty and dangerous space and high security space filled with travellers. While from a realism perspective you are right, thats not very game-like, and invincible police who know your every move aren't very realistic either. We need Concord, but if your gonna make an argument that is nominally based on realism, Concord should not have a 100% catch rate, which they do. So, you can already suicide gank everything in the game. You cry that you should get away with it without loss? Seriously with insurance your loss is like, 1-2 m ISK anyway.. Griefing and pvp isn't the same thing... Lol, you misunderstood me, I am not against Concord in the slightest. Noobs need protection, and Concord provides that. I'm not arguing your point, just the flaw in the logic you provided. P.S. I'm a 0.0 PvPer, not a ganker. Never actually ganked in my 4 years of playing, unless WTs count, no matter how many roams I have been on. ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main!
Miso Hawnee	Posted - 2011.05.16 10:52:00 - [113] Originally by: Rells really really long post CCP Sold out. Profits > Quality. They need pve content to cash in on the WoW crowd. Right now their business model is based on a revolving playerbase where people last 7 months. Why polish content when your profit base wont be around long enough to notice? NEW SHINY THINGS FOR OUR MARKETING SPAM! WE ONLY HAVE TO DUPE THEM FOR 7 MONTHS!
Aeronwen Carys Empire of Dust	Posted - 2011.05.16 11:45:00 - [114] Originally by: Miso Hawnee Originally by: Rells really really long post CCP Sold out. Profits > Quality. They need pve content to cash in on the WoW crowd. Right now their business model is based on a revolving playerbase where people last 7 months. Why polish content when your profit base wont be around long enough to notice? NEW SHINY THINGS FOR OUR MARKETING SPAM! WE ONLY HAVE TO DUPE THEM FOR 7 MONTHS! Citation needed me thinks. I find it fascinating how many of you people state personal, biased opinion as fact.
Miso Hawnee	Posted - 2011.05.16 12:32:00 - [115] Originally by: Aeronwen Carys Originally by: Miso Hawnee Originally by: Rells really really long post CCP Sold out. Profits > Quality. They need pve content to cash in on the WoW crowd. Right now their business model is based on a revolving playerbase where people last 7 months. Why polish content when your profit base wont be around long enough to notice? NEW SHINY THINGS FOR OUR MARKETING SPAM! WE ONLY HAVE TO DUPE THEM FOR 7 MONTHS! Citation needed me thinks. I find it fascinating how many of you people state personal, biased opinion as fact. This isn't wikipedia. I'm not going to write a college level dissertation for every forum post to appease the likes of you. My post is an opinion. Get over it. If it means that much to you, read the QEN.
Goldman Suchs	Posted - 2011.05.16 12:55:00 - [116] Originally by: Ghoest I live less than 50 miles from Home PA. Oddly enough its not really a redneck town. Not that we dont have some here in PA. But yes we all have guns. And that is why I will never live in the USA (that and lack of health care). I guess Europe is Empire and the USA is low sec - you're pretty much on your own.
Baraka Obama	Posted - 2011.05.16 14:06:00 - [117] As a carebear, I agree with you 100%. The 4 items you highlighted should be addressed in your favor. I never left empire because I felt the risk of 0.0 significantly outweighed the reward.
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2011.05.16 14:57:00 - [118] Edited by: Verone on 16/05/2011 15:01:06 Originally by: Rells Originally by: Verone There are still tens of thousands of people who're actively PvPing in game and who're perfectly happy. True, some forms of PvP have taken a bit of a beating but that's life. Adapt or die. Wow. Blast from the past. Assuming the character wasn't sold of course. You were one of the people constantly flaming predictions that came true over and over again. It was people like you that said "oh dont be stupid, concord will never be invincible" and other similar things. How many more years will it take you to admit we turned out to be right all along? Still the same old me. As for flaming people's predictions lol, what are you smoking? The only people I flame on these forums are the tools like you who have no concept of how Eve works and are so utterly hopeless at the game and engaging with the community that they become outcast, bitter vets who have to get their rocks off by whining on the forums. Originally by: Rells Originally by: Verone CCP should just take you off their mailing list so that the rest of us don't have to listen to this bitter, misinformed, mindless dribble every time they give a free 5 day reactivation out. You chose to read the thread. You chose to reply. Your own fault. Stop blaming others for your stupidity. No one put a gun to your head and said "read and reply." You are the cause of your own misery. And as usual neither you nor the other flamers here affect me in the slightest. They present a comical vision something like some spittle spewing moron cursing at a zen monk while he merely sits placidly and smiles. The reality is that none of you are important to my life, so I don't give a darn what any of the people here think about me. Yeah, I chose to read it because I enjoy reading the whines of misinformed bitter vets who've been out of the game so long they don't even know how the most fundamental of game mechanics have changed. We don't affect you? Eve doesn't affect you? Then why do you come back here whining like a baby whenever you get the chance of a free handout from CCP? Originally by: Rells Originally by: Verone Go back to picking flowers in a field in Warcraft or whatever you do when you're not crying for attention on these forums when you can get a free handout of game time. Did you read the post? Anyone who had would realize I wouldnt be playing wow. Or are you just too dumb to figure that out? Ok, Ok ... my bad ... I will spell it out for you. WoW is the biggest peice of crap, timesinking gimick on the MMOG market. Good enough or do I have to put it in braille? Hurr Durr? It was sarcasm, but I can see even that is lost on someone who's as much of a whining bitter vet as yourself Originally by: Rells Originally by: Verone Honestly, if you're so bitter over Eve, get lost and play something else and let the rest of the community enjoy the game they choose to play. Bitter over a video game? Nah. I wouldn't qualify it as that. Disappointed is more accurate. I have had a life sufficiently filled with emotional and personal pain and ultimate triumph that Eve doesn't posses the ability to embitter me. What is interesting is that people will dismiss honestly offered criticism without countering it in any way, rather attacking the character of the poster. Is it possible that people have lost the ability to intelligently debate anything? It would appear that you have, that's for sure. What more did you expect, coming here flaming a game that the people here love, and pay to play? Originally by: Rells As for you Verone, your opinions and posts have always, for years, been part of the problem. Your whining has always been part of the problem that's softened the game up. Do us all a favor and go back to your life that's apparently so awesome, although I'm suspecting that's as much of a pile of crap as the rest of your posting, if you feel to post here. >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Cloora APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2011.05.16 15:04:00 - [119] Originally by: Goldman Suchs And that is why I will never live in the USA (that and lack of health care). I guess Europe is Empire and the USA is low sec - you're pretty much on your own. And that is why we don't want people like you here in the USA. BTW, I have healthcare and always have had it because I have a JOB. We don't cater to losers who don't want to pull their own weight. I also own a gun and go shooting with other like minded individuals who also own guns and we all end up not shooting anyone. Except criminals. US is like EVE and Europe is like WoW? The only problem is just like in EVE where people try to make it more like WoW instead of just going to play WoW, people in the US are trying to make it more like Europe instead of just moving there. ------------------------------------------ CEO and Major Shareholder of the APEX Conglomerate Producer of Starsi brand softdrinks and Torped-Os! brand cereal as well as many other fine products
Nyabinghi Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2011.05.16 15:34:00 - [120] I think the reason why many players, so called carebears, resist PVP is that a) a lot of what passes as PVP these days are actually grossly one sided encounters and really who wants to be the easy victim of every PVP encounter b) the mindset that your opponent will most likely have much more skill points than you and thus be able to fit their ship better, survive longer, do more damage, etc. and therefore there is no point in PVPing until you've trained up what appears to be a never ending list of skills for X amount of months or years c) that PVPing is something that so called pirates, gankers and null sec dwellers do and if you don't want to be one of those types of players then there is no point in PVPing. I have no problem with players not wanting to PVP and actually I hope WIS (walking in stations) opens up new opportunities beyond the military industrial complex which everything currently is based upon. However I think a lot of players can do and enjoy both "carebearish" activities and PVP. I think a lot of so called carebears can learn to enjoy PVP, even if only casually, if those above mentioned issues (a,b,c) can be properly addressed by CCP.

Kain Kodiak	Posted - 2011.05.16 16:35:00 - [121] As both a highsec carebear and a former lowsec and 0.0 pirate, Shut up, don't like the game don't play. This is the best game I've played, and every time I get bored with it (which happens, everyone needs a break now and then), or run into other issues that don't allow me to play, I still come back, because there is still nothing like EVE. I've been playing since 2006 and from then till now, the only choice I see that needs addressed is making 0.0 better, add in the things you mentioned in your post, the player owned sentry guns would be nice, but not necessary 0.0 is a wasteland, but one controlled by players, with the fierce need to defend it. They should deepen it, and add more quality systems to fight over, so it draws empire players out to fight, think American gold rush, but that takes time, and they are currently working on things EVERY player has been screaming about for years, station walking, so reactivate and come play and wait like the rest of us, or don't, it is a sandbox after all, this game is what you make it.
Fuzzy Wuzzi Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.05.16 16:53:00 - [122] Originally by: Cloora We don't cater to losers who don't want to pull their own weight. Obama begs to differ. Originally by: Verone YOU'RE A **ING BITTER VET. OK? YOU'RE A BITTER **ING VET. YOUR POINTS DON'T MATTER BECAUSE YOU SIR, ARE A BITTER VET. Enough with the bitter vet insult please! The guy obviously has somewhat valid points.
Sha Dar CONCORD Developments	Posted - 2011.05.16 16:55:00 - [123] Originally by: Azhpol Noobs need protection, and Concord provides that Wrong, Concord does not provide protection, nor invulnerability, and more importantly most definitely NOT SAFETY. What concord does provide is consequence for actions, and the quicker victims of said actions realise that the better.
Kyra Felann Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.05.16 17:14:00 - [124] Originally by: Voith Eve has always been a shadow of what it could be. Allowing multiple characters or accounts per person guaranteed that. Confirming that this is the single biggest problem with EVE. -----WARNING SIGNATURE BELOW----- Bring back the NeoNeoCom!
Valrandir Gallente Distant Thunder Perihelion Alliance	Posted - 2011.05.16 17:35:00 - [125] Be silent peons. Rells is right. This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2011.05.16 17:40:00 - [126] Originally by: Valrandir Be silent peons. Rells is right. Rells is always right. Even when he's wrong. At least in his mind. Try to convince him otherwise. An exercise in futility. --------
Rasta Rocketman Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.05.16 17:43:00 - [127] Edited by: Rasta Rocketman on 16/05/2011 17:45:14 Originally by: Rells Every now and then I get an email in my inbox inviting me to reactivate my account for a few days for free and see what has changed. Invariably I take them up on the offer, hoping to see vast improvements in the gameplay. Unfortunately there is nothing compelling about the game anymore and I invariably end up canceling again. This got me to thinking about what exactly killed Eve for the PvPer? There are four main turning points of note that we can point to that have pushed Eve into becoming a carebear game that has a bit of "arena" PvP. ... I've been here since the beginning as well and been a PvPer that entire time, and I'd agree with the spirit of some of what you've said. My angle is a bit different because I enjoy small gang PvP which is all but extinct compared to the early days of eve, but your point is well taken. When carriers first came out and I found out they could be used to haul large amounts of goods without jumping through a single gate (except the cyno character to get to destination one time), that was the moment I realized very clearly that CCPs focus was not to promote PvP in Eve. Before then and since then much of the gameplay has been catered to the carebears of eve...but tbh I cannot blame them. You're right that this was not the vision of the original game, but they are running a business, and carebears are probably where the easy, stable/recurring subscription money is. I played eve religiously in the first 2 years, when everything was risky (remember tank CEO camping 1 jump outside Yulai in a Raven and killing everything that passed?) and the excitement of playing eve at that time was truly awesome. On the other hand, when we first started playing in Castor there were barely 1500 players online at peak times, and a few hundred online during slow times. You could roam 30 jumps in 0.0 and not run into a single other person. At that time I was afraid eve would not last as a game. Whatever CCP has done in the past years has turned eve into the game it is now with 50K peak players/20k players at slow times. This is a huge improvement and probably saved the game from shutting down in its infancy. My point is that the game is still here and thriving, and I'm glad for that because it's awesome and I'd hate to see it go. It has taken some turns that I don't agree with, but overall still a very impressive game. _______________________________________________
garus banta	Posted - 2011.05.16 17:57:00 - [128] Edited by: garus banta on 16/05/2011 17:59:16 You fail to realize a very important point. When you started playing eve, the very first pod pilots to begin their adventure in new eden,all were balanced. All of you had the same starting point and skill sets which had to be trained up. Fast forward 5 years into the future as new players join the game. You have an unfair advantage over noobs, they can't compete with you, you make their lives miserable, and unlike your experience in eve theirs is much more harsh. They can't start like you, with every player balanced. They start UNBALANCED. Do you see where I'm going with this? The introduction of lv4, jump bridges, was not meant for you. It was meant for smaller / younger players. Now one can argue that it's unfair but the truth is you are a dinosaur. You are too old to play eve online and your character has too much experience. You need to retire your toon and start over. But most people will not biomass a 100 million SP, so, to keep the game balanced empire space has to be rewarding as well. It's not easy in empire either, there is much more competition then 0.0 or even lowsec. Making money via lv4 is also no picnic either, and you are dead wrong about the risk. lv 4 has risks if you don't know what you are doing, it also takes a few months of grinding to get to level 4. So please old man, stop *****ing about the old days and enjoy your retirement. You are obsolete.
Kunming Viziam	Posted - 2011.05.16 18:16:00 - [129] Agree on ALL points Rells has made. I started way back in beta, and back then especially the community was much different, people wanted challange and conflict. Today no one wants a challange (Im not talking about a fairfight, fights in EVE are never fair), I dont understand the community of today, every 2nd person simply wants some cheap fight for giggles. I dont think its the younger players, alot of us were pretty young back in 2003 and none of us acted like monkeys on coke! I think the forums speak for themselves on this anyway.. many good arguements get lost in instant trolling and flaming attempts.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.16 18:32:00 - [130] Originally by: Scorpii Orion Without level 4 missions, we all would be flying t1 frigates with empty pockets. Strangely there were a large array of numerous classes of shops before the introduction of level 4 missions. The actual facts of history prove that you are incorrect, colossally incorrect. Which is not surprising. Originally by: Scorpii Orion You do realise, that money have to be pumped into the system, otherwise system begins to crash... No, pumping money into a system creates inflation. Ever take an economics class in college by chance? Overabundance of supply creates deflation and overabundance of money creates inflation. Inflation has never worked in the favor of any MMOG out there including eve. Originally by: Scorpii Orion Also, why in earth 0.0 should be the most populated area instead of safe empire space? Outlaw space is as it should, quite empty and dangerous space Spoken like someone who has never left empire. If you think there is no consequence in 0.0 you have never lived there. The difference is that in 0.0, consequence is delivered by players, not an arbitrary, idiotic game mechanic. Of yourse your reference to 0.0 as outlaw space tells us all we need to know aobut your gameplay. Originally by: Scorpii Orion Griefing and pvp isn't the same thing... And this inane statement confirms it. You are a carebear. A cute, cuddly, rainbow on the chest, carebear. Scared of anything resembling a challenge. Originally by: Miso Hawnee CCP Sold out. Profits > Quality. Absolutely spot on. Originally by: Goldman Suchs And that is why I will never live in the USA (that and lack of health care). I guess Europe is Empire and the USA is low sec - you're pretty much on your own. I have never not had health care. I dont know anyone who has ever not had healthcare. I also lived in europe and I know what their idea of healthcare is. If you need a flu shot, its great. If you need a trauma 1 surgeon, a cardiologist, an oncologist or a neurosurgean, you are, frankly, screwed. Name one major medical invention in the past 30 years that has been invented in europe. Every american can walk into an emergency room and cant be refused treatment even if they cant afford it. Furthermore thare are over 100 charitable organizations in america that help the truly unfortunate get their prescriptions and so on. Despite what your socialist european media tells you, the stories of americans dieing in the streets are apocryphal at best. The difference is most americans dont need to be a peasant slave of the government. They are individualists that like to do stuff for themselves. Europeans prefer the be peasants of their "masters" in government. When it comes to guns, the first stept in totalitarianism is to disarm the population. -- Founder of Agony Unleashed but NOT currently CEO of it. Opinions expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily represent opinions of AGONY.

Hermann Fegelein Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.16 20:24:00 - [131] Originally by: Fuzzy Wuzzi Originally by: Hermann Fegelein No pvpers= no demand for ships= no carebears. Fixed. In my experience pvpers are a lot more resourceful than carebears and can easily figure out how to supply themselves. It'd just be more expensive without bears. Only for PVP oriented ships. Ships that can do well in missions as well as industrials will still be in demand. Even if missions are removed then EVE will turn into a space mining game, which wouldn't be fun for many people but whatever. Also the PVP community still has most of the benefits here despite how much you want to whine about not having as much as you used to. CCP not deciding to take major action against botting is resulting in very low ship and module prices. PVP can still happen anywhere at anytime, maybe with some CONCORD intervention but is still possible. By taking advantage of game mechanics high sec PVP is possible Sovereignty in Nullsec has allowed the corps to have major wars and keep carebears out Another thing, the actions of carebears don't effect you at all, in fact the prices get lower and lower because of the increasing amount of carebears. The changes that the OP was crying about is no biggy. If they didn't kill the game then then the game is fine now. ------------------------------------------------ Brigen sie mich Fegelein! FEGELEIN! FEGELEIN FEGELEIN!
Kunming Viziam	Posted - 2011.05.16 20:38:00 - [132] But Rells, socialism is good.. it means even if ur kids are dumb they'll get a good education Seriously dont bite troll bait, national/racial discussions usually end in a locked thread. Back to topic: EVE got toned down in hardcoreness over the years, this was a compromise by CCP to attract the more casual player. Unfortunately the more casual player (I've been playing more casual as well actually) didnt understand EVE, or didnt had enough time to understand EVE. I played other MMOs and mentioned EVE in chats, the players that tried it had one thing in mind "EVE is the game where you work your arse off for months to lose it all in seconds".. this was the idea EVE was portraying. So, I can understand that those that enjoy the theme but not the game would like a melange environment with low risk where they can just enjoy the scenery, but this is a game its meant to be difficult and challanging, especially in the end game.
Jack Abramof	Posted - 2011.05.16 20:54:00 - [133] Edited by: Jack Abramof on 16/05/2011 20:54:29 Originally by: Rells I have never not had health care. I dont know anyone who has ever not had healthcare. I also lived in europe and I know what their idea of healthcare is. If you need a flu shot, its great. If you need a trauma 1 surgeon, a cardiologist, an oncologist or a neurosurgean, you are, frankly, screwed. Name one major medical invention in the past 30 years that has been invented in europe. Maybe you should stick to talking about Eve online where you may have a clue, fyi neither you or myself knows who invented what during the last 30 years since neither you or myself are doctors. However saying that if you need 1 specialist in europe, you re screwed is very silly. Our doctors are as good in europe as they re in the states or anywhere else, why should it be different ?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.05.16 20:55:00 - [134] Edited by: MotherMoon on 16/05/2011 20:56:22 he's right on a number of points though. everyone used to scream *wrap to zero ruined pvp" it wasn't wrap to zero, it was drone salvage.0.0 should be the ONLY PLACE to grind/mine some materials. Back then people would serious defend their little spot on the map so they could get these materials in order to build their army. however rell, take into account, if most of your concerns WERE acted on by ccp, then conchord being as strong as it is right now, wouldn't be an issue anymore. it's the combination of conchord with drone loot. lvl 4 missions, that messes up the whole system.
LHA Tarawa	Posted - 2011.05.16 22:01:00 - [135] I have only been playing for 2 years, so do not recall any of the changes mentioned in the OP. Since I started, there has always been undefeatbale CONCORD, always been L4 high sec missions, always been stations and jump drives. However, as a new player, I think I may have a slighlt different POV than the OP. Let's say I just started playing. I accept the tutorial curior mission that is intended to teach you how to dock, warp, jump, etc. I undock, warp to jump gate, jump in and POOF. I get killed by someone that has been playing for 5 years. What happens? I log out and never even activate my trial account into a paid subscription. Now, let's say I have been playing a few months and am pretty easily doing L3 missions making.. maybe 1 million ISK an hour. So, I would have to grind for like... oh 40 hours to be able to buy and fot a battlecruiser. Well, I would not have been out losing ships left and right in PVP if I had to grind that long to replace them. Instead of spengin 75% of my time in PVP and 25% grinding, would would have been spending 75% or more grinding and maybe 25% missioning... if I was still bothering to even play. POS mechanics suck. I can't imagine trying to live in 0.0 without a station. Without jump? So I have to sit in station for a few hours waiting for enough people to log in to go chase off the station camp. Weeeee... that sounds like fun. Yes, PVP is fun, but make it all PVP and you lose most of the potential player base. Yes, maybe high sec L4s pay too close to low sec ratting, but really, most low sec ratting is no more risky than high sec missions if you are doing it right. High sec missions gives me something easy to do on my alt while I wait for the reds to clear our area in 0.0.... making me more ISK to buy ships to replace my PVP losses so I can do more PVP. If you hate the changes listed in the OP, then I must assume you want a game with 10K hard core PVPers that are all 7+ year vets roaming through 5000 solar systems, hoping to bump into each other, with everyone flying in frigs because there is no safe way to make the ISK needed to replace more expensive ships. Virtually no new players would join a game were they could so easily be destroyed by anyone else. Virtually no one that only plays 5-10 hours a week would play if there was norhign you culd do without joining in a riving gang to go PVP, and maybe shoot a few rats while scouting for the enemy. Have they "dumbed down" Eve to apeal to the masses instead of the few hard-core PVPers that were first in? YEP! Any company interested in profits would... Which of course can be simplified to Any company would. So, if you envision a game where players have absolute free reign to roam around anywhere, killing any other payer at any time.... then keep dreaming. Such a game would be unable to continually attract the ample supply of new players needed to replace those that move on, nor grow income sufficiently to continue development of the game.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2011.05.16 23:44:00 - [136] Originally by: LHA Tarawa So, if you envision a game where players have absolute free reign to roam around anywhere, killing any other payer at any time.... then keep dreaming. Such a game would be unable to continually attract the ample supply of new players needed to replace those that move on, nor grow income sufficiently to continue development of the game. Your view of 0.0 and PvP is from the point of view of a carebear and, as such, is not a complete one. Carebears tend to vastly overestimate the lethality of 0.0, the amount of points and equipment needed to be effective in PvP and their own importance in the economy. There are many people who are as sick of empire as I am and risk ratting in 0.0 and make a significant amount of isk. Unfortunately there are less than 50 systems in all of 0.0 where that really pays off versus the risk. Most of 0.0 is a barren wasteland and that is one of the maor problems. I also dont buy the premise that there isnt an audience for a player driven game. You would call it a PKer game but I know better and that is why I call it player driven. In a player driven game it is the players that enforce peace as it exists. Someone going out and griefing a Veto player is likely to feel the wrath, not of CONCORD, but of a more virulent and persistent threat of the Veto corp and alliance itself. People in 0.0 group up for collective safety and just attacking anyone is a game few can play. Those that play it have to very good and are under constant pressure. It isnt black and white as carebears see it. It isnt "safe carebear game or total PKer uncontrolled insanity." A player driven game uses different, player made, mechanics to govern political issues. However, I have not advocated the crushing of high sec at this time. What is done is done. However, CCP could do many things to make PvP in 0.0 and living in 0.0 more rewarding than living in the safety of empire. The whole rixk vs reward thing could be fixed fairly easily by ccp. They dont lack the technology or tools, merely the will to do so. -- Founder of Agony Unleashed but NOT currently CEO of it. Opinions expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily represent opinions of AGONY.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.05.17 00:04:00 - [137] Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 16/05/2011 15:01:06 had to remove the full quote due to the post word count but its on the last page. Verone, I am impressed with your putdowns towards this guy. He raises interesting arguments in his first post but it becomes clear he is simply clueless to the way the game has actually adjusted over the years. Also I was sad that Veto never spoke to me when I tried to chat with them ingame when I met them in lowsec, but then again its common practice not to fraternise with the enemy
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.05.17 01:13:00 - [138] I have to agree with Rells that the risk vs reward dynamic was much better when there was more need in hisec space for minerals from 0.0 People who wanted to go all shooty shooty made a lot of ISK from those who didn't want to PvP, but needed what the PvPers had access to. It was all very gold-rush-gunslinging-prospector and it had an excitement about it. Now 0.0 is more about moon-goo and powerblocs. Mining in 0.0 is not the income source it once was - and when it is done the tools now available make it a one-man-and-his-alt system cleanout session (and then jump the minerals away). Eve has evolved in many ways, but that hasn't really made it a better game - in some ways the development has moved away from that exciting risky universe, and that is a shame. Eve is still a good game, but I do understand what Rells is talking about (and agree with him in many respects). For me the fun came not just from the killing, but from the dying - or at least the fear that it could happen at any time. It was exciting because of the risk, not in spite of it. That is what Eve lacks now. Eve may be far more popular than it was "back in the day"; but does that mean it is better now? Justin Bieber is popular. Retro sig
Aarin Wrath Caldari East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.17 01:32:00 - [139] Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 17/05/2011 01:36:32 Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Valrandir Be silent peons. Rells is right. Rells is always right. Even when he's wrong. At least in his mind. Try to convince him otherwise. An exercise in futility. Yup that sounds like my opinion of Rells too. A sad bitter vet who believes he is always right, reality be damned. I really wish he diden't take up the 5 day offer and just stayed away.
Jorhan Brimve Stahl	Posted - 2011.05.17 02:18:00 - [140] Originally by: Rells 1)We argued that once introduced the non-pvpers would demand that they be more and more effective until they were invincible. Apocalypse with 1400mm arties doesn't care about invincible CONCORD. Quote: 2) Only so much could be made in empire and to strike it rich you had to go to 0.0. However, that all changed when zydrine and mega were added to empire space. We argued that this would mean most of 0.0 would be a worthless wasteland and that zed and mega farmed in empire would overtake 0.0 imported. Again we were flamed to hell and back. Statistics or it didn't happen. Your opinion doesn't count, since I know for a fact that people mine in 0.0 and w-space, plus we all know what drone regions export. Also you might want to calculate how many drone missions should you loot to build a tier 3 battleship. Quote: 3) Introduction of the level 4 mission. This was a carebears dream. The carebear could patiently work himself up billions of isk with very little in danger. It also presented a further reason to avoid 0.0 like the plague. Yeah, because we all know that poor people in 0.0 only made like 100mil per hour in those sweet sanctums. Also we all know that radar/mag plexes in 0.0 are utterly useless and combat plexes don't produce anything of value. Quote: Since these events Eve has been trending more and more towards the carebear. That's why CONCORD reacts instantly and there are no insurance payouts for suicide ganks. And you can't loot other people's stuff and can't wardec anyone. Damn carebears!

Tobiaz Spacerats	Posted - 2011.05.17 03:07:00 - [141] Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck Pure PvP is at the top of the EVE foodchain. PvP'ers carnivorous activity doesn't actually create anything, it just consumes and redistributes stuff made by the herbivores and pond life lower down the food chain. And yes, it takes a lot of herbivores to feed one carnivore - hence the EVE demographics and CCP's motivation to help carebears. Without carebearing, EvE's economy would grind to a halt. IMHO it was the introduction of bubbles that ruined a whole chunk of the game. It threw up a fence around 0.0 that has stopped much of the traffic in and out of nullsec, and created the need for jumpdrives. Being able to leapfrog along critical traderoutes has killed many types of gameplay. Now nullsec is only really viable with a jumpdrive and connections. Yes I am an 8 year old player, and now live self sufficiently in empire space, getting my high-end mins from L4 drone missions, and additional revenue from manufacturing, PI and research. It was the bubbles drove me to this. It was either that, or become a serf in a mega-corp wracked by political ego-maniacs and high tax rates. Not my style. C'est la vie, yes it could be so much better but it's still a damn good game. Most of EVE's PvP is funded by alts, which is a bit too schizophrenic for your analogy to work, I think.
Fuzzy Wuzzi Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.05.17 03:09:00 - [142] Originally by: Avon People who wanted to go all shooty shooty made a lot of ISK from those who didn't want to PvP, but needed what the PvPers had access to. It was all very gold-rush-gunslinging-prospector and it had an excitement about it. I yearn for this, CCP, plz bring it back! Carebears will whine at first but thank you later for making their game more exciting!
Zaerlorth Maelkor The Maverick Navy Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2011.05.17 03:26:00 - [143] Originally by: Rells When it comes to guns, the first stept in totalitarianism is to disarm the population. You did not just turn this into a pro-guns thread. Everything you have said and will say from now on is invalid. However, you might want to consider a few things, first of all; I now have one of those annoying sigs. second; you should probably move on to some more interesting things than reading this sig.
Rells Caldari Fusillade.	Posted - 2011.05.17 16:38:00 - [144] Originally by: Avon I have to agree with Rells that the risk vs reward dynamic was much better when there was more need in hisec space for minerals from 0.0 People who wanted to go all shooty shooty made a lot of ISK from those who didn't want to PvP, but needed what the PvPers had access to. It was all very gold-rush-gunslinging-prospector and it had an excitement about it. Now 0.0 is more about moon-goo and powerblocs. Mining in 0.0 is not the income source it once was - and when it is done the tools now available make it a one-man-and-his-alt system cleanout session (and then jump the minerals away). Eve has evolved in many ways, but that hasn't really made it a better game - in some ways the development has moved away from that exciting risky universe, and that is a shame. Eve is still a good game, but I do understand what Rells is talking about (and agree with him in many respects). For me the fun came not just from the killing, but from the dying - or at least the fear that it could happen at any time. It was exciting because of the risk, not in spite of it. That is what Eve lacks now. Eve may be far more popular than it was "back in the day"; but does that mean it is better now? Justin Bieber is popular. Avon, you and I dont often agree but I agree with you here. The real shame is that it doesnt have to end this way. It can be changed. Many of the high sec issues will not go away but 0.0 can be made to be significantly richer than empire (boosters, more valuable moons, rat buffs) and CCP could spend some significant time working on tools to allow players to not just hang out in 0.0 for arena style battle but actually build kingdoms out there. Its all possible. However, I fear they will never do it. Look at their current intiatives and you see where their heart now lies; in carebearing and irrlevant fluff like walking in stations. -- Founder of Agony Unleashed but NOT currently CEO of it. Opinions expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily represent opinions of AGONY.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.05.17 16:46:00 - [145] Yesterday, you said you had spent 4 days tooling around in nullsec, so if you are to be believed, this is the last day of your free Eve. Goodbye.
Rells Caldari Fusillade.	Posted - 2011.05.17 16:58:00 - [146] Originally by: Xylengra Yesterday, you said you had spent 4 days tooling around in nullsec, so if you are to be believed, this is the last day of your free Eve. Goodbye. Never fear, I have a lot of isk and could mess around with my current experiment for months without giving CCP another dime. I appreciate your concern though. ;) -- Founder of Agony Unleashed but NOT currently CEO of it. Opinions expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily represent opinions of AGONY.
Corbulo Typhonius Caldari	Posted - 2011.05.17 17:55:00 - [147] Originally by: Rells Every now and then I get an email in my inbox inviting me to reactivate my account for a few days for free and see what has changed. Invariably I take them up on the offer, hoping to see vast improvements in the gameplay. Unfortunately there is nothing compelling about the game anymore and I invariably end up canceling again. This got me to thinking about what exactly killed Eve for the PvPer? There are four main turning points of note that we can point to that have pushed Eve into becoming a carebear game that has a bit of "arena" PvP. 1) The creation of CONCORD. Concord was supposed to be this mild mannered police force when it was created but the developers went to great pain to tell us that they were not invincible and that they could be defeated. Many of us screamed that the introduction of CONCORD would invariably lead to them becoming ubiquitous and undefeatable. We argued that once introduced the non-pvpers would demand that they be more and more effective until they were invincible. We were, of course, flamed out of existence, excoriated as being irrational and overreacting. 2) Addition of Zydrine and Megacyte to NPC drone loot via compounds. Prior to the introduction of dropped refillable compounds the only source for zydrine and megabyte was 0.0. This made a very compelling reason to go to 0.0 to gain more riches. Only so much could be made in empire and to strike it rich you had to go to 0.0. However, that all changed when zydrine and mega were added to empire space. We argued that this would mean most of 0.0 would be a worthless wasteland and that zed and mega farmed in empire would overtake 0.0 imported. Again we were flamed to hell and back. 3) Introduction of the level 4 mission. This was a carebears dream. The carebear could patiently work himself up billions of isk with very little in danger. It also presented a further reason to avoid 0.0 like the plague. Why risk ratting expensive rats in 0.0 when you could burn through missions in peace in high sec. 0.0 went from being the end game to being a 99% complete wasteland. There are 2 or three areas in all of 0.0 now that are worth even owning. The rest of it is a glorified WOW arena. 4) The introduction of Jump drive. Once upon a time alliances made huge convoys of freighters to get critical equipment into 0.0. Those convoys were often attacked by those with the moxy and that required their protection. Supply lines were critical to maintain and the deeper you went in 0.0 the harder it was. After the introduction of jump drives, carriers and jump freighters load up in empire and jump safely to POS shields and stations. Interdiction is pretty much impossible if the logistics people have any idea what they are doing. Strategic warfare was eliminated. Since these events Eve has been trending more and more towards the carebear. CCP has made half hearted attempts to shore up pvp but introducing new and expensive types of ships doesn't do anything to address the fundamental problems introduced into the game. Furthermore, CCP has been unwilling to provide the tools for players to carve out their own little kingdoms in 0.0. Currently the blob rules 0.0 space and strategic warfare is a joke at best. CCP has failed to introduce things like faction bubbles, faction locked gates, player deployed gate guns or any of a billion ideas proposed by hundreds of players over the years. ..... Continued below .... In a way I do agree, I personaly am a carebear ATM, I do wish to go into low sec and even 0.0, Yet from what you say, There is no reason bar fighting, I do agree there should be hidden richs in 0.0 to tempt people to come out, As I'v never been there, The rest of you will know what's out there better than I do but I do hope there is something very valuable out there to make it worthleaving high sec, Other wise it's pointless, As I'v stated I have no ambition to go into 0.0, Yet I hope they improve it for everyone else and make it worth it. [url=http://BIGLottery.BIG-EVE.com/][/url]
Kerppe Krulli	Posted - 2011.05.17 18:30:00 - [148] I've played EVE off and on for years now and watched it grow every time I came back. CCP is doing what they should, growing a game and the company. How many subs were in this game when it was mostly PVP, how many subs are in this game now? Guess which number CCP cares about? The game has grown from High sec, low sec, 0.0, WH. Each has a unique play style. The discussion to force people out of high sec sounds more like you want more targets to simply kill for the **** of it because you can. This will cause a vast majority of those "carebears" to quit the game which equals less subs which equals fired developers and lessening of server resources which equals a crappier game. You need to look at the game as a whole and how it is constantly growing and evolving. CCP is doing a great job growing the game and the company. The other discussions regarding minerals are similarly self-serving and are aimed only at lining someone's personal pockets rather than balancing the entire game. People live in high sec and WH why shouldn't they have access to the resources to make stuff without being entire dependent on 0.0 space? What makes 0.0 space so revered. Currently the best Moons rats belts and ice are in 0.0, it sounds more like the 0.0 alliances and players want a complete lock to dictate all prices and thus really inflate their wallets. This is not game balance and adding the minerals elsewhere does not break anything, it balances the needs of people enjoying high sec and people in 0.0. As to 0.0 space, currently there is a forum to let CCP know when you will have a fight out there so the node doesn't crash. In its current form, CCP could never run servers with even half the high sec population in 0.0 space, the game experience would degrade and cause people to quit and more whines about how bad the game is. Its amazing how far this game has come over the years and I'm excited on how it will grow and change. Nothing stays the same and you must adapt to the new changes. Remember, CCP has to balance the needs of current users but still make the game exciting and fulfilling enough to attract new users. That is their only concern.
Ghurthe	Posted - 2011.05.17 18:47:00 - [149] I completely agree that the proliferation of Megacyte and Zydrine was the start of the big declines in pvp. Drone loot was one cause, and lately, the introduction of things like grav sites to all space with high mining indices. This normalization of 0.0 space has to stop, make nullsec work again.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2011.05.17 19:01:00 - [150] Edited by: Le Skunk on 17/05/2011 19:03:35 Originally by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl Apocalypse with 1400mm arties doesn't care about invincible CONCORD. That's why CONCORD reacts instantly and there are no insurance payouts for suicide ganks. And you can't loot other people's stuff and can't wardec anyone. Damn carebears! Fairly irrelevant * Buy item in jita 4-4 * Put in jump freighter * Undock, Cyno to station in lowsec before being tacklable * Spam dock * Undock, wait 30 seconds, cyno to staion in 0.0 whilst not being tackelable * Spam dock Repeat Process a few times * Arrive in 0.0 system, dock and put Item on market. * Reverse process with 11 gillion worth of moon goo. There is, in reality and baring a computer failure, absolutley ZERO risk for the item bought in the heart of empire and transported as far as possible in eve to the depths of 0.0 None at all. Even spitter stations were removed by ccp some months ago as that posed a TINY WEE RISK that if you were slack and messed up you wouldnt be able to redock. As for wardecs... RIGHT CLICK... LEAVE CORP. Done! Hooray for Risk vs Reward SKUNK (o)

Jorhan Brimve Stahl	Posted - 2011.05.17 19:37:00 - [151] Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 17/05/2011 19:40:47 Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 17/05/2011 19:03:35 Originally by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl Apocalypse with 1400mm arties doesn't care about invincible CONCORD. That's why CONCORD reacts instantly and there are no insurance payouts for suicide ganks. And you can't loot other people's stuff and can't wardec anyone. Damn carebears! Fairly irrelevant * Buy item in jita 4-4 * Put in jump freighter * Undock, Cyno to station in lowsec before being tacklable * Spam dock * Undock, wait 30 seconds, cyno to staion in 0.0 whilst not being tackelable * Spam dock Repeat Process a few times * Arrive in 0.0 system, dock and put Item on market. * Reverse process with 11 gillion worth of moon goo. Right, because you can light a cyno at Jita 4-4 undock and anyone can transport anything anywhere using a jump freighter. Obviously you've missed hundreds of suicide ganks against both haulers and mission-fit ships. Anyway, it's not the point since OP insists that EVE Is Dying (tm) BECAUSE OF CAREBEARS (tm). IIRC those carebears were whining about both ganks and wardecs for at least three years now, but somehow these activities didn't fall victims to nerfbat of doom. Quote: As for wardecs... RIGHT CLICK... LEAVE CORP. Done! Hooray for Risk vs Reward Damn those POSes quitting wardeced corps and people disbanding wardeced alliances at once! Oh, and certain Kestrel with 74 plexes didn't happen. Also, this crap about "risk vs. reward" boils down to "people do what I don't like and get away with this!". W-space is more profitable than highsec. 0.0 is more profitable than highsec. Highsec's crushing advantage is that it is convenient. To anyone telling me that all EVE space must be a second full-time job I have only one answer: sod off.
elenasa	Posted - 2011.05.17 19:44:00 - [152] A gate is doscovered in Eveworld that has not been seen before. It allows only frigate size ships to pass through, and what it leads to is a universe that is unchartered, unexplored, untainted by exploitation and colonisation. In this part of space, or new universe in a multi-verse, there is no security, no police, no laws, no rules, no conventions, no safe areas, and, very significantly: no way back. If CCP were to open-up such a server, who would jump through?
Jorhan Brimve Stahl	Posted - 2011.05.17 19:54:00 - [153] Originally by: elenasa. It allows only frigate size ships to pass through, and what it leads to is a universe that is unchartered, unexplored, untainted by exploitation and colonisation. In this part of space, or new universe in a multi-verse, there is no security, no police, no laws, no rules, no conventions, no safe areas, and, very significantly: no way back.[/quote Do you mean c1-c2 w-space without probe launcher?
Wolfric Draksmile	Posted - 2011.05.17 20:06:00 - [154] I agree with one thing. 0.0 should be like Wormholes withaout local. But the scanner should be enhance A radar should automaticall rescan. all 15s, All 30s?
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.05.17 20:07:00 - [155] Originally by: garus banta Edited by: garus banta on 16/05/2011 17:59:16 You fail to realize a very important point. When you started playing eve, the very first pod pilots to begin their adventure in new eden,all were balanced. All of you had the same starting point and skill sets which had to be trained up. Fast forward 5 years into the future as new players join the game. You have an unfair advantage over noobs, they can't compete with you, you make their lives miserable, and unlike your experience in eve theirs is much more harsh. They can't start like you, with every player balanced. They start UNBALANCED. Do you see where I'm going with this? The introduction of lv4, jump bridges, was not meant for you. It was meant for smaller / younger players. Now one can argue that it's unfair but the truth is you are a dinosaur. You are too old to play eve online and your character has too much experience. You need to retire your toon and start over. But most people will not biomass a 100 million SP, so, to keep the game balanced empire space has to be rewarding as well. It's not easy in empire either, there is much more competition then 0.0 or even lowsec. Making money via lv4 is also no picnic either, and you are dead wrong about the risk. lv 4 has risks if you don't know what you are doing, it also takes a few months of grinding to get to level 4. So please old man, stop *****ing about the old days and enjoy your retirement. You are obsolete. /thread eve can't be fresh, just like you can't eat 5 L of honey without rash.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2011.05.17 20:09:00 - [156] Edited by: Le Skunk on 17/05/2011 20:17:24 Originally by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl Right, because you can light a cyno at Jita 4-4 undock and anyone can transport anything anywhere using a jump freighter. All your points are totaly wrong So you have no issue with my point that you can transport an item from jita to the depths of 0.0 with no risk. Thats ok is it? Good Good. The scarey return journey is indeed a risky one, and goes as follows. * Cyno to station one jump off highsec. * Spam dock. * Undock, stop ship, are unlockable for 30 seconds wherupon you instantly dock if ANY sign of trouble. * If no trouble outside, warp to ZERO on a high sec gate and jump through * 3 Jumps to Jita through no system lower then 0.8. Switching to an armor tanked cloaky legion can be done in station for small items. Item has now gone from jita 4-4 to deep nullsec and back to jita 4-4 with ABSOLUTLEY NO RISK baring a computer failure, Quote: Obviously you've missed hundreds of suicide ganks against both haulers and mission-fit ships. Missed them? Ive been the one firing. No hauler need be ever suicide ganked (use a cloaky or an orca) and faction items have nosedived so badly in price (due to 0.0 cheesers semi afking/macroing through anoms) most mission ships aint worth the bother (baring the idiots who fit all officer) The only peeps who get suicide ganked are the ones who have taken shortcuts, are carrying to much in the wrong hull, are not aware of the game mechanisms, or are killed for a loss out of grief tactics. Quote: Anyway, it's not the point since OP insists that EVE Is Dying (tm) BECAUSE OF CAREBEARS (tm). IIRC those carebears were whining about both ganks and wardecs for at least three years now, but somehow these activities didn't fall victims to nerfbat of doom. * Insurance has been nerfed rasing suicide prices * War dec avoidance has been judged legal by ccp * War dec prices were made cumulative * Concord timers have been sped up * Sec drops have been increased Theres a few off the top of my head. Quote: Damn those POSes quitting wardeced corps and people disbanding wardeced alliances at once! Oh, and certain Kestrel with 74 plexes didn't happen. * Poses exist in lowsec and nullsec and dont need a wardec to kill so thats totally irrelevant. * If you have ever wardecced an alliance the first thing you notice is 5-10 corps immediatly dropping the alliance to avoid the dec. * Kestrel popped was an example of a pilot choosing the wrong ship for his haul (see above). If put in the correct ship, the 74 plex would have been transported RISK FREE! CONCLUSION Everything you said was demonstratably wrong and you should think before posting on subjects you do not known about SKUNK (o)
Sorted Highwaymen	Posted - 2011.05.17 20:18:00 - [157] Le Skunk 1 point, Random noob 0 points. We have a clear winner. Mr Skunk. Random Noob, your posting privilages should be revoked.
Dranadar Gallente Privateer Industrial Operations	Posted - 2011.05.17 20:20:00 - [158] Originally by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl crap. ahahahaha your an idiot. Dranadar - Space Monkey
Whistler Vinci	Posted - 2011.05.17 20:23:00 - [159] Originally by: Dranadar Originally by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl crap. ahahahaha your an idiot. posting to confirm. That guy's a tool
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2011.05.17 20:27:00 - [160] Agree with point 2-4, in fact I'd expand on the mega/zydrine point and say it should be purely from mining in null and a major requirement for supercap building. Hell, even make the size of the actual minerals ten times the size of today so it's a ***** to haul them, and make it unable to get them from reprocessing. (Nullsec) miners need some love, and supercap production needs to be helluva lot more expensive, it seems like the perfect fit to match them together. When it comes to point one tho; it'd be way too abuse if there was a weakened CONCORD around. Players can easily field hundreds, if not thousands of players if they want. A proper RR BS blob that could tank CONCORD? They'd effectively shut down highsec pipes, tradehubs, etc. It'd be beyond griefing. It has to be a limit somewhere. Maybe slow down CONCORD somewhat, and make it possible to deagress and get out in a reasonable time, or similar. Either case, refreshing post, to see some constructive points that isn't the usual whineage. +internets to you, sir. -

O Wren Caldari Argonauts of BAcon	Posted - 2011.05.17 20:30:00 - [161] Originally by: Sarmatiko Edited by: Sarmatiko on 15/05/2011 10:43:06 YC113.10.05 Angel Cartel Incursions to the Amarr/Khanid border systems. More PVE. Go ahead, cry more Originally by: Rells Fortunately I have ample firearms to protect her from creeps like you. You know, countries where people without brain or sense of humor are prohibited from gun ownership is much more safer than your current cowboy land. oooo geee whiz you shur got big brainz there stud
O Wren Caldari Argonauts of BAcon	Posted - 2011.05.17 20:33:00 - [162] Originally by: Dalmont Delantee I can see your points, but also agree with the other guys, adapt or die, games change. EVE has so many options, if pvp is the only thing you want to do then its there, you just have to find it. This. Short, well put, no immature jabs. In other words DEAL
Jorhan Brimve Stahl	Posted - 2011.05.17 20:47:00 - [163] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 17/05/2011 20:18:08 Edited by: Le Skunk on 17/05/2011 20:17:24 All your points are totaly wrong Note to self: use bold yellow letters next time, they prove that I'm right. Quote: The scarey return journey is indeed a risky one, and goes as follows. One Another You can search their killboard for more fun stuff Quote: Switching to an armor tanked cloaky legion can be done in station for small items. Small items like large control tower. Call me when you'll be able to haul one in a cloaky Legion. Quote: Missed them? Ive been the one firing. No hauler need be ever suicide ganked (use a cloaky or an orca) and faction items have nosedived so badly in price (due to 0.0 cheesers semi afking/macroing through anoms) most mission ships aint worth the bother (baring the idiots who fit all officer) So you whine because you're doing it wrong and missed all the shinies. Quote: * Insurance has been nerfed rasing suicide prices It was a fix to effective insurance exploit. Artillery update partially fixed the problem. Quote: * War dec avoidance has been judged legal by ccp So what? Staying docked at station is also legal. Quote: * War dec prices were made cumulative Now you're ***ing because you don't get a free lunch. Quote:** * Concord timers have been sped up Good kills can be scored anyway. Quote: * Sec drops have been increased Disco-phoons didn't care last time I've checked. Quote: Theres a few off the top of my head. I'm tempted to make a joke about it's contents. Quote: * Poses exist in lowsec and nullsec and dont need a wardec to kill so thats totally irrelevant. It is relevant since you can blow stuff up in highsec and draw defenders into a pitched battle as well. Quote: * If you have ever wardecced an alliance the first thing you notice is 5-10 corps immediatly dropping the alliance to avoid the dec. I've been, they did, some stayed and provided killmails. Quote: * Kestrel popped was an example of a pilot choosing the wrong ship for his haul (see above). If put in the correct ship, the 74 plex would have been transported RISK FREE! OH CRAP SMART PEOPLE ARE BETTER OFF!!!!11oneone Hint: most of people aren't that smart and you can get them if you're smarter. Seems to me that you aren't. Quote: Everything you said was demonstratably wrong and you should think before posting on subjects you do not known about Conclusion: HTFU.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2011.05.17 21:10:00 - [164] Edited by: Le Skunk on 17/05/2011 21:11:58 Your post was very difficult to read. Try using paragraphs, colored text, text alignment and decoration. 1) Freighter kill mails. Used the wrong ship hull (see post 149) 2) Large Control Tower Use a cloaky hauler instead of legion. legion was given as example of small item 100% safe transfer. 3) Missed the Kills My posts have simply been to back up one of the themes of the OP regarding risk, in particular the saftey in transporting items around the galaxy. I have proved this in my posts. 4) Nerfs not happening. Well so you have changed from saying wardecs and suicide ganking have not been nerfed to quibbling how bad the nerfs that happened were. Do you understand this and how you have fundementaly altered your argument in just one post to agree with my point? RE insurance: A dev blog about suiciding reveals Quote: CCP Fear says, "The highly requested feature of removal of insurance in CONCORD related events will be implemented in the near future." Its on the cards, and its entirely due to suicide ganking not to insurance fraud outside stations. RE wardecs That face that people DO drop alliances as you agree shows you DO NOT have to be in a wardec and so DO NOT have to suffer risk CONCLUSION Reread the conclusion in post 149. SKUNK (o)
Jorhan Brimve Stahl	Posted - 2011.05.17 21:13:00 - [165] Originally by: Le Skunk words, "conclusion", words Continue grasping straws as much as you want. I'll have my profits, CCP will have their profits, you'll be boned. Have fun.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2011.05.17 21:16:00 - [166] Originally by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl Originally by: Le Skunk words, "conclusion", words Continue grasping straws as much as you want. I'll have my profits, CCP will have their profits, you'll be boned. Have fun. Game, set and match Le Skunk! SKUNK (o)
Jorhan Brimve Stahl	Posted - 2011.05.17 23:01:00 - [167] Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 17/05/2011 23:05:23 Originally by: Le Skunk Quote: CCP Fear says, "The highly requested feature of removal of insurance in CONCORD related events will be implemented in the near future." Its on the cards, and its entirely due to suicide ganking not to insurance fraud outside stations. Nerfbat strike followed several events, one of them a few major rants about ability to turn profit by suiciding (either by CONCORD or self-destruct) ships built from minerals purchased at market price. IIRC one of those threadnoughts was made by Bellum Eternum from Death of Virtue. Details are a bit fuzzy, but I think he promised to build as many Abaddons as possible and make a crapload of isk from insurance payouts. People popped battleships right in Jita, some of them were bright enough to do it at safe spot and salvage wrecks for added profit. So nerf was "widely requested" because insurance was a source of instant free isk, not because suicide gankers had great profit margins for at least a year. "serious security reported by CCP Fear \| 2008.08.06 02:58:31 \|" "near future" Guess it's not near enough yet? Way to screw up the context, eh?
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.05.18 05:59:00 - [168] Originally by: Sha Dar Originally by: Azhpol Noobs need protection, and Concord provides that Wrong, Concord does not provide protection, nor invulnerability, and more importantly most definitely NOT SAFETY. What concord does provide is consequence for actions, and the quicker victims of said actions realise that the better. Wrong. Concord DOES provide protection. Just as the police protect the people(you do realize that the police have no legal obligation to protect YOU, only society as a whole?) Concord protects noobs by providing a reason not to attack them. Sure, if you are willing to lose your ship you can get that gank in, but how is that different than the guy who goes on a killing rampage knowing he will get caught, arrested, and with any luck executed? Are the police not protectors? I never said Concord made for a gankproof noob, and no one wants that either. But they do keep alot of people from messing with em, so they actually have a chance to learn how to handle it from the few who will take the loss. ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main!
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.05.18 07:32:00 - [169] Originally by: Sarmatiko Edited by: Sarmatiko on 15/05/2011 10:43:06 YC113.10.05 Angel Cartel Incursions to the Amarr/Khanid border systems. More PVE. Go ahead, cry more Originally by: Rells Fortunately I have ample firearms to protect her from creeps like you. You know, countries where people without brain or sense of humor are prohibited from gun ownership is much more safer than your current cowboy land. Hate to defend the idiot, but statistically countries that have banned gun ownership have higher violent crime rates than countries where we have the right to shoot someone in the face for infringing on our personal rights. Asking anyone who has ever committed a violent crime, and 90% make sure the victim doesn't have a gun first because criminals are FAR more afraid of armed citizens than they are the police. The people hate police who pull the trigger, but love a citizen who defends themselves, so police try not to shoot, while a citizen is gonna do whatever he feels he needs to defend himself, his family, and his livelihood. I'd rather the criminals fear me, than have to fear them because they have the guns I am not allowed to get(since they have no reason not to break the law) Oh, and to those people pointing out that letting this turn into a RL politics thread will get it locked... Don't we WANT this ******ation locked? ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main!
Rells Caldari Fusillade.	Posted - 2011.05.20 04:34:00 - [170] Originally by: Azhpol Originally by: Sha Dar Originally by: Azhpol Noobs need protection, and Concord provides that Wrong, Concord does not provide protection, nor invulnerability, and more importantly most definitely NOT SAFETY. What concord does provide is consequence for actions, and the quicker victims of said actions realise that the better. Wrong. Concord DOES provide protection. Just as the police protect the people(you do realize that the police have no legal obligation to protect YOU, only society as a whole?) Concord protects noobs by providing a reason not to attack them. Sure, if you are willing to lose your ship you can get that gank in, but how is that different than the guy who goes on a killing rampage knowing he will get caught, arrested, and with any luck executed? Are the police not protectors? I never said Concord made for a gankproof noob, and no one wants that either. But they do keep alot of people from messing with em, so they actually have a chance to learn how to handle it from the few who will take the loss. This difference is that this is a game, not real life. Get some perspective. Killing someone in a video game is not the same as doing so in real life. And despite the impressions of most carebears, PvPers arent latent mass murderers in real life. Your attitude shows the problem with carebears in a game designed to be player run. -- Founder of Agony Unleashed but NOT currently CEO of it. Opinions expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily represent opinions of AGONY.

OverlordY	Posted - 2011.05.20 04:59:00 - [171] Edited by: OverlordY on 20/05/2011 05:03:38 SO basicly, the Op wants eve to have a 100% pvp player base? lol talk about killing the game over night. Goodluck with that mate. more PVE = more players = more subs = more money = rich CCP - CCP = business - Businesses = there to earn money. Pure fact. Thus the incarna, drawing in the PVE players, that will leave a month later anyway.
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.05.20 21:08:00 - [172] Originally by: Rells This difference is that this is a game, not real life. Get some perspective. Killing someone in a video game is not the same as doing so in real life. And despite the impressions of most carebears, PvPers arent latent mass murderers in real life. Your attitude shows the problem with carebears in a game designed to be player run. Well, I AM a pvper, and PvE the bare minimum to stay in pvp hulls, so I'd like to think I actually have some perspective on the pvp life... I'm also someone who want to get some RL friends into the game(I assume you have those) and would like it if they actually played long enough to learn to fight a gank. If they don't feel the presence of concord, thats just not gonna happen, no matter how hardcore. Eve is too crowded nowadays for noobs not to be protected, unlike the early days of the game. ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main!
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.05.20 21:43:00 - [173] Most of your complaints -- and mine -- are solved by Wormhole space. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
BLACK D0G Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2011.05.20 23:59:00 - [174] Ron Burgundy: Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast! Brian Fantana: It jumped up a notch. Ron Burgundy: It did, didn't it? Brick Tamland: Yea, I stabbed a man in the heart. Ron Burgundy: I saw that! Brick killed a guy. Did you throw a trident? Brick Tamland: Yea, there were horses and a man on fire and I killed a guy with a trident. Ron Burgundy: Brick, I've been meaning to talk to you about that. You should find yourself a safe house or a relative close by because you're probably wanted for murder. BLACK D0G is for SALE!
Constantinus Maximus Paxian Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2011.05.21 00:07:00 - [175] Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 21/05/2011 00:08:04 edit: wall The more I think about it recently I think CCPs failure was a failure to take their devs along for the ride. They lost a lot of the good people when it became apparent that the corporation was going to swallow any profits instead of putting them back into the resources who made it all possible. All the creative minds and people who gave a **** left a long time ago. CCP pay is horrible for software engineering. Only thing that would make it worthwhile is the fact that such a low wage would be good money in a broke country. The absolute poorness of the web team and the fail that is evegate and "the new forums" goes someway to showing the lack of calibre HR is able to attract. So many things have been completely miss-managed from top to bottom in the past 2-3 years, but if you take it all back to when they lost all the good devs, that might just be the moment it all went bad. CCP have failed to take their customers along with them, however it might just be that the original failure was them not bringing their devs along for the ride. Hope we all checked the right boxes in the survey, marketing department runs the trailers, I mean expansions, I mean trailers. Guess passion and creativity only have value in hindsight.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.21 00:12:00 - [176] Quote: Clearly you failed to read the whole post. Clearly you made a post worthy of failing to read. All is as it should be. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
Renan Ruivo Caldari Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance	Posted - 2011.05.21 06:02:00 - [177] You're all telling me that Jump freighters are untoucheable? That mission boats are invincible? That mission running is fun? Here's a funny thing. One poster here complained about new people managing to make so much more money than he himself was capable of doing when he had the same in-game age. The same poster, however, also complained on another thread that back then having 1 billion isk gave you much more buying power than it does now. You didn't have more power back then, and you don't have more power now (cept for having more skill-points, but that's not the issue here). The main issue here is that today you cannot achieve the same results by doing the same things you did back then. Today you have to re-learn that which you knew. So it's really one option for you. Adapt or die. ____________ I like woman because breasts
Usagi Tsukino Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2011.05.21 09:22:00 - [178] Rells, 2004 player here, so take this for what it's worth. I disagree with you regarding CONCORD. While I do wish there response time was a bit... slower... (Maybe they get held up at SpaceKrispyKreme?) Anything that allows new players and inexperienced players some level of safety and security is fine in my book because while we all aren't that douche who sits on a spawn point sniping people as they resurrect, there are plenty of people who are. I want new people in this game. I want them to come in, grow, learn about EVE, give CCP money and then hopefully form a really terrible alliance with lots of faction/officer mods on their carebear ships to run crappy plexes in Syndicate. If CONCORD protects them till that day, I say YAY! As for #4, It's not just jump drives. CCP could nerf 0.0 to the bone, and not much would change because of a general attitude that has developed among most sov holders that null needs to be Empire 2.0, and for that to happen you need to have these massive power blocks, rather than small, constantly warring city-states. Unless CCP were to make some kind of sov mechanic that actually punishes 'blueing', like 'more than 50 blues on grid, a space tsunami spawns', there really isn't anything that will happen to stop that. Null sec sov holders don't want to fight. They want to carebear. They want to sell moon goo. They want to tell everyone they have sov. Alarm clock POS/TCU ops just happen to be one of those unfortunate side effects. ___ *Chaotic Dreams*

CCP Spitfire C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2011.05.21 09:45:00 - [179] Offtopic posts removed. Please refrain from political discussions on our forums (and generally try to keep it civil). Thanks! Spitfire Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online

Brusanan Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance	Posted - 2011.05.21 10:19:00 - [180] Originally by: Rells CCP has failed to introduce things like faction bubbles, faction locked gates, player deployed gate guns or any of a billion ideas proposed by hundreds of players over the years. 99.9% of the ideas the players come up with are complete ****. That's why CCP doesn't take most of their ideas seriously. Also, posting in what is almost definitely a troll thread. ______



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