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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.05.18 07:54:00 -
[61]
- Bombers have already been hit with the bat with no noticeable effect as it came after sub-caps stopped being used in super bouts for anything other than clearing bubblers .. so that won't happen and won't work. - Cyno's are probably being nerfed (spool-up time), not to limit super capabilities but rather capitals in general.
What I would like to see: - Removal of all but one or two highs on SC's, Carriers are the capital logistics platform. Would make all SC blobs non-starters and provide a weaker link to exploit. - Downward tweak of SC EHP to half that of Titan's. - Removal of eWar immunity when in Empire. - Higher CSAA vulnerability (ex. prohibitive online requirement to make POS toothless or gimped shields) -or- hard limit on CSAA numbers (1-2 per iHub w. expensive upgrade to have more). - Boost to dreads.
Originally by: Straight Edged Please dont...
Please don't think ISK value is a balancing metric, you only make yourself look like a fool.
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KHAN SUNE
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Posted - 2011.05.18 08:12:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Miso Hawnee
Originally by: KHAN SUNE Guys for gods sake go and get laid!!
hey sailor, looking for a good time?
Now how the hell did you know i'm in the navy?
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.05.18 09:00:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Gnulpie on 18/05/2011 09:03:51
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Gnulpie With 1 trillion isk you can get maybe 60 supercarriers or 6.666 battleships (16 bil per SC, 150 mil per BS).
The BS would MELT the supercarriers in absolutely no time.
[...]
There are only two problems: 1) You don't get 6000+ people together for that. 2) The server would die horribly.
The problem isnt so much that it is impossible to get 6k people (okay it is a major problem), but it is also that it is ridiculous that the only counter besides more of the same, is outnumbering your opponents 20 to 1 (roughly what you need if you want to kill a supercap with subcaps, with caps you need arround 10 to 1 or so). I think that pretty much fills the definition of overpowered.
Why is that ridiculous? Can you kill 60 BS (which good fit and knowing what they are doing) with the same amount of frigs? Hardly. Why do you think that fleetbattles often consist of BS vs BS or at least BS vs ships that are equally or more expensive (as in HAC or T3) and not BS vs frigs?
The argument that you can kill a shipblob with only another shipblob of the same pricetag is pretty valid for everything shiptype in EVE I think. No, that is not what makes SC so special. The special thing is that they create a lot of lag and that the servers can cope with them. That is the real problem, together with their high mobility from one area to another.
Edit: Would it help if the mobility of SC would be reduced? Maybe only once every xx hours? Or 0 lightyears directly after the jump and then every hour the jumprange is increased by 0.1 lightyears until the max range is reached? |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.18 09:57:00 -
[64]
So the problem is not highest DPS, or the EHP of a POS, or the ewar immunity with ****load of utility slots and enormous drone bay, but the lag? So if they double FB and fighter DPS and half the ammount of drones they can have out they are balanced? Lol no, they are horribly overpowered, completely regardless of lag.
Being forced to outnumber an opponent 20 to 1 or bringing more of the same = overpowered, simple as that.
Regarding your BS example, first the BS dont promote botting so much, so that is one difference. But more important, what BS type are you talking about? Ahacs can do pretty good against some (that they are as expensive doesnt matter, it means they got a counter, and also one that doesnt encourage botting), against others BCs can be very effective. If you want to use frig sized ships there is definately not the need to outnumber them 20 to 1 to win, with equal numbers you might even beat quite some BS setups, largest issue will be breaking logistics. Last, but most definately not least, ever considered bombers? Cheaper, smaller, and can absolutely devastate BS fleets if used correctly. You can also go larger, like carriers, which then are countered by dreads, which are countered by BS. So not one type to pwn them all.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.05.18 10:11:00 -
[65]
The main problem I see with Supercarriers is after their buff there is a huge leap in power between level 1 and level 3 in racial carrier. Probably the Supercarriers should of been t2 or something more at their current level of power.
At the same time I see the problem being there is no equivalent superdreadnought. Titan doesn't qualify as it costs twice as much as the Supercarrier. Need something about equal in firepower, cost and construction time.
What the game really needs is some sort of Drone Interdiction (A Drone Screening Vessel). Where the ship has tremendous bonus to damage, tracking etc vs drones/fighters/fighter-bombers. Might be a level 3 Interdictor based off of Destroyer Hulls (though be nice to see a new original hull for it) and a Level 3 Heavy Interdictor off of Cruiser Hulls (would be nice to see a new hull used though).
You can then approach one of two ways. It can have an effect similar to the warp bubbles but instead of preventing warp it deals damage to just drones (incl fighters and fighter bombers) or you can have another weapon mod like anti-drone/anti-fighter weapon that can only be fitted on that hull and deals extroardinary damage to drones, fighters and fighter bombers. Both types would only attack/damage enemy drones not friendly ones.
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Ticarus Hellbrandt
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Posted - 2011.05.18 10:45:00 -
[66]
bombers should just be removed then dreadnoughts will have more purpose.
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Pheleus
Habitual Euthanasia
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Posted - 2011.05.18 10:52:00 -
[67]
I like the only bomber no drone idea.
But tbh the truth is 50sc's worth of other ships would be a fair fight so not sure what ccp can do that wont make them completely useless to the point were 5bil in ships beats 15bil ship which just makes no sense. It would be like a rifter soloing a mach wouldnt it.
And they are not OP if you consider training time cost unless you are a sad ***got getting killed by a blob of them.
titans are way more overpowered.
My idea is simple make titans and SC worht 4x there current build price so people care when they lose them at present 10-15bil to replace a super for high SP characters is **** all.
stupid filter
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bartos100
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.05.18 11:43:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Gnulpie Edited by: Gnulpie on 18/05/2011 09:03:51
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Gnulpie With 1 trillion isk you can get maybe 60 supercarriers or 6.666 battleships (16 bil per SC, 150 mil per BS).
The BS would MELT the supercarriers in absolutely no time.
[...]
There are only two problems: 1) You don't get 6000+ people together for that. 2) The server would die horribly.
The problem isnt so much that it is impossible to get 6k people (okay it is a major problem), but it is also that it is ridiculous that the only counter besides more of the same, is outnumbering your opponents 20 to 1 (roughly what you need if you want to kill a supercap with subcaps, with caps you need arround 10 to 1 or so). I think that pretty much fills the definition of overpowered.
Why is that ridiculous? Can you kill 60 BS (which good fit and knowing what they are doing) with the same amount of frigs? Hardly. Why do you think that fleetbattles often consist of BS vs BS or at least BS vs ships that are equally or more expensive (as in HAC or T3) and not BS vs frigs?
The argument that you can kill a shipblob with only another shipblob of the same pricetag is pretty valid for everything shiptype in EVE I think. No, that is not what makes SC so special. The special thing is that they create a lot of lag and that the servers can cope with them. That is the real problem, together with their high mobility from one area to another.
Edit: Would it help if the mobility of SC would be reduced? Maybe only once every xx hours? Or 0 lightyears directly after the jump and then every hour the jumprange is increased by 0.1 lightyears until the max range is reached?
i would love to see your 60 man BS gang meet a well skilled 10 man bomber squad with bombs :) if they manage 1 good bombrun all your 60 BS are gone or very badly hurt and ready to die with the next bomb run or a few torps
total value of he SB gang 200 mil ? total value of the BS gang 6 bil ?
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Millie Clode
Amarr Insert Cool Name Here
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Posted - 2011.05.18 11:51:00 -
[69]
I fully agree. 49 is a perfectly sensible number of supercaps to field at once. Anything more than that and it's SUPER LAME. ---------- Who, me? |
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.05.18 11:55:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Sealiah SC are fine at the moment... We need some bigger ships that are even less cost effective to kill the SC to make them the uber-ship. Make the new ship like the old titan, a few dozens in the game and when you hear about one, people shiver.
Base price - 300b.
BOOM! This guy has cracked it for us! CCP HIRE THIS MAN!
jesus christ.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.18 12:38:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Pheleus I like the only bomber no drone idea.
But tbh the truth is 50sc's worth of other ships would be a fair fight so not sure what ccp can do that wont make them completely useless to the point were 5bil in ships beats 15bil ship which just makes no sense. It would be like a rifter soloing a mach wouldnt it.
And they are not OP if you consider training time cost unless you are a sad ***got getting killed by a blob of them.
titans are way more overpowered.
My idea is simple make titans and SC worht 4x there current build price so people care when they lose them at present 10-15bil to replace a super for high SP characters is **** all.
stupid filter
If I buy for 2B rifters (yeah i am poor), will CCP give me pilots for all those rifters? Ship balance needs to be on a per ship base, not per ISK. Why would it be a problem if 5B worth of ships can beat 15B worth of ships? Get for 15B worth of dreads and I show you what BS worth 5B will do to those dreads, and no one is complaining dreads need to be better against BS.
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Hakkar'al Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.18 14:09:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Kash Nirukhi These days there's no use to subcaps anymore. The mothership has taken over the role of virtually any other ship.
As Lady Spank hinted, I feel roaming supercaps would be hilarious. That said, RMT-alliances are fielding quite a few these days.
Not on roams unfortunately.
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Mithrasith
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Posted - 2011.05.18 15:02:00 -
[73]
Maybe have CCP make destroyers=Bomber killing machines.
Of course they would need to also make them more immune to smart-bombing or something, but that might actually give destroyers a freaking role.
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Shawna Gray
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.18 15:26:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Hakkar'al Gallente
Originally by: Kash Nirukhi These days there's no use to subcaps anymore. The mothership has taken over the role of virtually any other ship.
As Lady Spank hinted, I feel roaming supercaps would be hilarious. That said, RMT-alliances are fielding quite a few these days.
Not on roams unfortunately.
Roams are irrelevant for sov warfare, and if you really wanted to you could roam with one small ship and hotdrop the supers when needed.
Supers have to be nerfed.
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Blacksquirrel
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Posted - 2011.05.18 15:34:00 -
[75]
I've said they need to implement flak cannons that are awesome against drones and fighters. People for some reason dont like the notion of AOE damage in eve...unless it has to do with smart bombs for some reason.
I'm guessing lag? But with that argument we'd never have missiles either.
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Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium
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Posted - 2011.05.18 16:20:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Blacksquirrel I've said they need to implement flak cannons that are awesome against drones and fighters. People for some reason dont like the notion of AOE damage in eve...unless it has to do with smart bombs for some reason.
I'm guessing lag? But with that argument we'd never have missiles either.
I could see a potential actual use for some sort of retooled defender missiles. Give them huge bonus to damage fighter / bombers and have them auto-target and hit those types of drones.
You could then have viable screens of 'flak' ships walling off anything the supers were going after. Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Open for Recruitment!
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Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium
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Posted - 2011.05.18 16:32:00 -
[77]
I think the point is that something that is elite, extremely powerful, and 'relatively' expensive needs to have balanced restrictions on it.
As it currently stands there are no disincentives to deploy massive supercap blobs. You cannot blame the players for exploiting assets that are available to them under the current system.
Deploying a super carrier or titan for battle should be expensive, more difficult, more risky (all-in), and a tide-turner, not the defacto standard ship of use.
Since isk and expenses have lost all meaning for the larger groups, changing the costs will effect nothing, it needs to be balance/game mechanics that change this.
1. Cyno range / cost / spool-up should be directly proportional to what is being cynod onto the field. I would even suggest at best battleships required to cyno capitals and capitals required to cyno supercapitals. Hot drops are stupid, you know they are. Having a lenghty spoolup and giving people a chance to leave would cut this tactic right out of the game, while leaving it just fine for larger sov fights that last longer anyway.
Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Open for Recruitment!
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Martyr Theos
The NecroMonger Faith
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Posted - 2011.05.18 16:46:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Martyr Theos on 18/05/2011 16:50:29 I have advocated for a "Nova Bomb" weapon for frigate pilots... but nobody seemed to like the idea. Nevermind that it would be a massive hoot for every pilot to be able to wield a "field clearing" daisy-cutter... nevermind that it would instantly make blobs obsolete.... nevermind that such dynamite is the obvious solution to breaking the cement molded empires in zero into fluid fun.
Just no support from the forum for big bombs in the hands of solo anarcho-terrorists I guess. (and this I don't understand given the communities' worship of griefing...) "Got License?" - TNMF |
Xtreem
Gallente Fire Mandrill
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Posted - 2011.05.18 17:02:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Blacksquirrel Increase dreadnought range and give them a bonus against super caps. Give them another high slot. Essentially create an anti super cap ship thats not so great against smaller ships.
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Epsilon Artiste
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Posted - 2011.05.18 17:03:00 -
[80]
What if supers could only jump once per 24 hours? Committing supers means a bit more now since they're stuck in that system for the next 24 hours and can't hop back to staging/home system all safe and sound once they're brought the pain.
Want to gank that ratting carrier? Okay, now you're stuck in that system for the day and can't head home or be used for another day. Would add another element like baiting hostile supers into jumping to one system then attack another system.
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Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium
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Posted - 2011.05.18 19:07:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Epsilon Artiste What if supers could only jump once per 24 hours? Committing supers means a bit more now since they're stuck in that system for the next 24 hours and can't hop back to staging/home system all safe and sound once they're brought the pain.
Want to gank that ratting carrier? Okay, now you're stuck in that system for the day and can't head home or be used for another day. Would add another element like baiting hostile supers into jumping to one system then attack another system.
+1 Fantastic idea Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Open for Recruitment!
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Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
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Posted - 2011.05.18 20:03:00 -
[82]
A very simple change would make things a lot better:
"Super Capitals can not target non-capital ships."
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.18 20:04:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Kerfira A very simple change would make things a lot better:
"Super Capitals can not target non-capital ships."
Which will result in some comical kills
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Velicitia
Open Designs
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Posted - 2011.05.18 20:08:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Silas Vitalia
Originally by: Epsilon Artiste What if supers could only jump once per 24 hours? Committing supers means a bit more now since they're stuck in that system for the next 24 hours and can't hop back to staging/home system all safe and sound once they're brought the pain.
Want to gank that ratting carrier? Okay, now you're stuck in that system for the day and can't head home or be used for another day. Would add another element like baiting hostile supers into jumping to one system then attack another system.
+1 Fantastic idea
24 hours might be a bit much -- but yes, something that keeps them committed for a good long while. Downside to this is that the guys owning them will "turtle" in their corners of space, rather than jump up for a weekend of crushing their enemies...
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Speaker4 theDead
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Posted - 2011.05.18 20:28:00 -
[85]
Wow, so many things could be said about all the whining in this thread, but I think i'll just stick with....
"Learn to adapt, or learn to die quietly"
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Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard Vanguard Imperium
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Posted - 2011.05.18 21:19:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: Silas Vitalia
Originally by: Epsilon Artiste What if supers could only jump once per 24 hours? Committing supers means a bit more now since they're stuck in that system for the next 24 hours and can't hop back to staging/home system all safe and sound once they're brought the pain.
Want to gank that ratting carrier? Okay, now you're stuck in that system for the day and can't head home or be used for another day. Would add another element like baiting hostile supers into jumping to one system then attack another system.
+1 Fantastic idea
24 hours might be a bit much -- but yes, something that keeps them committed for a good long while. Downside to this is that the guys owning them will "turtle" in their corners of space, rather than jump up for a weekend of crushing their enemies...
'Turtling' would be a decision to make. Real Empires have to make decisions to keep their armies for home defense or to go conquering and leave the back door open and vulnerable.
In eve you can do both, instantly, with no penalties and no need for strategic long term planning. You can travel halfway across the map from your home systems, drop fleets, and be home in time for dinner. No risk, no consequences, no 'front lines'.
Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Open for Recruitment!
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Iku
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Posted - 2011.05.19 01:45:00 -
[87]
we could also improve the doomsday to a real doomsday that also instapops motherships? or we could disable the hit and run tactics b disabling the jumpdrive for an hour, maybe two after the ship aggro's?
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.05.19 01:52:00 -
[88]
why is this a topic?
of course they are overpowered. they take years to train for and cost 20billion ISK.... are we really whining that newb BC gangs can't compete with seasoned/rich alliances?
and if they were actually overpowered then you wouldn't see them dieing so often. get in an alliance that has cap support and make sure they don;t pick fights with bigger fish. its really that simple.
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.05.19 16:23:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Speaker4 theDead Wow, so many things could be said about all the whining in this thread, but I think i'll just stick with....
"Learn to adapt, or learn to die quietly"
Jesus you can't even meme correctly..
Originally by: Arnakoz why is this a topic?
of course they are overpowered. they take years to train for and cost 20billion ISK.... are we really whining that newb BC gangs can't compete with seasoned/rich alliances?
and if they were actually overpowered then you wouldn't see them dieing so often. get in an alliance that has cap support and make sure they don;t pick fights with bigger fish. its really that simple.
They don't take years. 20billion is not much. Nobody is whining about BC's being underpowered against them, gangs of subcaps take down lone SC's all the time. They are complaining that there is literally no counter to the 50+ blobs of supercaps (not even another 50+ blob of supercaps, thanks to the lag that would ensue).
Your comments lead me to believe that you have never fought outnumbered, never used maneuvers or tactics to gain an advantage, and never flown your ship manually. Are you mad because you've never had a good fight? We should all join forces, into a giant red vs blue, select one target at a time while all 4000 of us click "orbitlol" and press f1 once in a while, is that what you're saying? Sounds a lot like missioning to me...
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Mithrasith
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Posted - 2011.05.19 16:44:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Iku we could also improve the doomsday to a real doomsday that also instapops motherships? or we could disable the hit and run tactics b disabling the jumpdrive for an hour, maybe two after the ship aggro's?
Some interesting idea's.
I wonder if this is what CCP is talking about when they reference disabling or destroying specific modules (aka jump drive).
Also I always thought that the DoomsDay device should wang your own fleet ships too. That would have balanced it out.
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