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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.02 13:53:00 -
[31]
"The close-range penalty is due to tracking speed."
oops, heh, that's what I meant.
It just came out back to front. The damage they can do is the same, but the chances of them hitting you are reduced, thus, less damage.
Edited by: drunkenmaster on 02/07/2003 13:56:11
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Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2003.07.02 14:06:00 -
[32]
How about this ?
Just make falloff equal to 50% of the optimal range ?
--
Intergalactic Teeth Pullers
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.07.02 14:08:00 -
[33]
TomB, how about range bonuses on Caldari cruisers from the Caldari cruiser skill? My Blackbird does not get the extra 15% it should from level 3 CC skill. I've reported this ages ago.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Selena PhalanX
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Posted - 2003.07.02 14:27:00 -
[34]
About the ammo range modifier, why would you want to cut from both opti and falloff?
If you'd want that its more likely that opti should be cut only by 25% of the modifier and the falloff by 75%.
Just my two cents.
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Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2003.07.02 14:45:00 -
[35]
Because if I am using ammo that is big and heavy enough to effect the optimal range, then it should IMHO also effect the falloff.
But, seeing as it's a vacuum, there shouldn't be a range ;)
Just let the round keep on going, and hit some poor miner in the next asteroid belt 3 days later, and get a sec hit for it too :)
--
Intergalactic Teeth Pullers
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein |
Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:49:00 -
[36]
---buggy quote text-biggerer eschewed:
Varsuuk: We know that the Minmatar ships are a bit too weak at this time, making them faster or more aggressive as their nature is will be sorted out. But I can't promise you when this will happen.
---
I lub you. ;)
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Cymoril
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Posted - 2003.07.02 17:37:00 -
[37]
Maybe the devs are planning on tech level 2 and higher ammo in the future?
All the power (or more power), and less range mods?
Something to think about before you get all bent out of shape over range mods. |
MindBender
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Posted - 2003.07.02 17:55:00 -
[38]
Cymoril,
It is not so much the dmg mods that people are complaining about. It is the obvious imbalance that they create between the weapons classes. When best Hybrid (description says these are supposed to be long range guns) using highest dmg ammo ends up having almost 1/2 the range of best projectile (description says med range) using highest dmg ammo and 1/2 the range of best laser using highest dmg crystal there is a problem.
The optimal range is still longer on hybrids however hybrids can almost not hit OUTSIDE of optimal range whereas both projectile and laser seem to hit with the same consistancy out to their MAX range. And since both of these weapon types have massive falloff values hybrids are no longer an option.
I spent about 2 weeks training time to bring hybrid skills up to level 4. This change does 2 things to my char. First that 2 weeks I spent training has been totally wasted. Second I now have to spend that same amount of time training a new weapon skill to be able to kill the same NPC's I am now killing. Not to mention I now have to go buy or find all new weapons. It also means that all of the ships that give bonus to hybrid weapons just became obsolete.
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Virulence
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Posted - 2003.07.02 18:31:00 -
[39]
minmatar ships SHOULD be weak. here is why:
they are a just recently formed 'empire'. they didnt have the R&D in order to compete with the gallente, which are mostly traders, caldari which are really into militarization and especially the amarr who are expansionist, militaristic, and have the most resources of all the empires. i mean this is a mmorpg with emphasis on rpg. there should be consequences for picking the underdog race, namely, you have a disadvantage. all the ships should reflect their respective EMPIRE not some sort of artificial balancing because of whiners.
Edited by: Virulence on 02/07/2003 18:33:12
shadows and dust |
Kalki Nibiru
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Posted - 2003.07.02 19:01:00 -
[40]
I only read the first page (it had all the info I needed) but this is some info for you people not in the know.
Antimatter is not something that destroys real matter, or neutralizes it or anything of the sort. Antimatter is a real substance and scientists can create it today (albeit in very minute quantities--millionths of a gram here). Do a search on google and try to piece together the bits of info you can about the subject if you want to know more (there isnt to much info about it), but to give you a quick summary of what anti matter is he ya go: In physics we have atoms and electrons, the further you look at atoms you find quarks and other sub atomic particles, while we have these, we also have anti-atoms, anti-electrons, and anti-quarks............the list goes on. I forget how we make anti-matter, but its something like firing two atoms at each other at high velocities over a long distance.
Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate
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<Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market?
<Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.07.02 20:36:00 -
[41]
|-optimal--|-Faloff---------------|
|--100%---|90%-----50%-----0%| <<Accuracy (tracking and skills combine to define what exactly 100% is but within optimal you always have your full chance, in falloff you have less than your full chance)
Thats how I understand optimal and falloff working
if you reduce optimal it also reduces the max range and lowers the relative accuracy at most ranges, lower accuracy means poorer hits for less damage or no hits.
Hybrids have a higher optimal, lower falloff because that means if there in range there more likely to have a 100% accuracy than not, whereas hybrid have short optimals and long falloffs - meaning there accuracy starts to drop off very early
Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 02/07/2003 20:42:09
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.07.02 21:34:00 -
[42]
Importand announcement hidden inside this thread:
Changes done to Minmatar cruisers and battleships; they have more base speed now than before - 5% speed bonus is OUT - 5% projectile ROF is in.
If you want to test this, this is on the Test server - if you want to comment, go right ahead.
"Where is my hat?" |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.02 21:43:00 -
[43]
Rightho Folks: Listen up. I vill only say zis vonce! (j/k)
Just finsihed some testing on Chaos with TomB.
Essentially my point was that a Railgun equipped Moa had no chance against a porjectile equipped Moa.
The Moa can mount 4 dual425scouts and only 3 250 prototypes.
The projectile guns can still hit out to the same or greater total range than the proto 250.
The projectile doesnt use cap and all that cap can go into boosting shields.
So - heres what we did:
2 moas, one with 3 (THREE) protoype 250s, one with 4 dual425 scouts, 2 shield boosters and low and mid slot cap recharge bonuses.
FIrst fight:
28km
Hybrid usess Anti-matter, projectile uses EMP. The shorter ranged 250 proto ship tries to close down the distance - but cant.
The projectile ship wins as soon as the prototype ship runs out of cap - one dead Moa. Projectile owns.
However:
Second fight:
Hybrid uses thorium charges. Proj uses Depleted Uranium (same range mods)
Hybrid Moa (remember only 3 guns) absolutely totally overwhelmingly owns the Porjectile Moa.
Simply because the projectile Moa is now inside optimal range. The projectile Moa tired to increase range so that both guns are in falloff- but it simply cant do it. It cant even keep up with shield recahrge and is out cap very quickly.
- - -
I will admit to being extremely dubious about the changes and the only posible way i would be convinced is via a hard test .
Have to say im convinced. You get inside the optimal range of a railgun and you are going to get hurt (until you can get close enough to orbit it, for say a frigate, in which case it cant touch you, we also tested that for proj and hybrid railguns).
Stas wise and even powergrid wise it looks all in the projectiles favour - isnt the case in practice though. (RoF changes are in also and taken into account in this test btw)
So - its actually fairly well balanced. Looking good so far anyway.
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.07.02 22:44:00 -
[44]
cool change on the minnie ships TomB :) I notice your ships/combat guy though ;) so any chance the minnie indys could get a similar one ? right now most of them are slower than the competition without the racial speed bonus and a touch faster with it - which kinda wastes the bonus considering there supposed to be the fastest race anyway :P (Also the Mammoth being the biggest most powerfull indy of the speed-race being unable to fit an MWD (it gets to 49.9 grid max with current tech) when the Bestower (low tech ship of slow/low tech amarr) and Iteron V both can .. is odd)
ahem anyway sorry getting OT *slaps own wrist :P*
*edit add* Oh and was my little explanation of accuracy above your last post right ? I'd love to know :)
Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 02/07/2003 22:52:19
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Samus
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Posted - 2003.07.02 22:50:00 -
[45]
"Combat should get bit more tactical..." ie appease the carebears. Ammo capacity on proj weapons will be ridiculously low if you stick to those numbers, and the range penalties on some of the better railgun ammo is a bit too much still.
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Juju Mojo
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Posted - 2003.07.02 22:53:00 -
[46]
 Quote:
Importand announcement hidden inside this thread:
Changes done to Minmatar cruisers and battleships; they have more base speed now than before - 5% speed bonus is OUT - 5% projectile ROF is in.
If you want to test this, this is on the Test server - if you want to comment, go right ahead.
I just logged on to test, and these are the stats I saw when looking at the Minmatar cruisers and battleships in the market:
Scythe - 165 m/sec
Bellicose - 150 m/sec
Stabber - 180 m/sec
Rupture - 150 m/sec
Typhoon - 120 m/sec
Tempest - 105 m/sec
And no mention of them getting any speed boost based on the skill level of the pilot. So, I pulled my trusty Stabber out of the hanger and took it for a spin... getting the bonus for my navigation skill, but nothing else.
So the 5% speed bonus is indeed OUT, but there is no increase in base speed. Please please fix this before tomorrow. Us Min's are very proud of our fast ships, and creeping around at the same speed as those, ahem, 'other' races will not do at all.
Thanks in advance! |
Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.02 22:57:00 -
[47]
Hmmm.. well something is definetly odd.
I used to go 228m/s in the rupture but now I got 199m/s
If the cruiser bonus doesn't work, and only navigation does, I would got 180m/s. But I got 199m/s
So what seems is that the ship indeed got a speed bonus, but the ship bonus isn't working afterall.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
annoing
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Posted - 2003.07.02 23:02:00 -
[48]
To TOMB:
When you say 'should survive longer in battle' you are obviously talking to those who want to, like to, or have to, fight in a PvP situation.
What about those of us who actively avoid pvp because we spend all our time hunting npc pirates? where does this 'balance' suit me? oh that right, it doesnt.
Where does all this balancing suit those who use energy turrets? oh thats right, it doesnt. Or hybrids...again...it doesnt.
So we are told to be more tactical? use more drones or missiles maybe? well. and im sure you'd remember if you tried, Amarr cruisers are not missile complient and the Maller has no drone capabilities either. Parity and balance? where?
i admit that i have spent all day moaning in these forums in as many threads as i can to stick the knife into you lot and yet another of your worthless patches. But you lot deserve it. Balance and parity...look it up in the dictionary because im sure it describes something different to you than it does to me.
Fix something that is actually broken and affects everyone, like the market bugs and exploits.
Now have me banned from the forum because im as bored of writing this as you lot are in reading it. Just wish the DEVS would actually listen to the ordinary player and not the big corps who have friends in high places.
LOL at the 'balance' statement from Tomb...good one. Balance the fact that proj take so little pwr, have better range and damage now and therefore a proj user can now fit all those lovely mods to improve armour/sheild/speed ec that the rest of us have had to do without because our 'balance' is guns that take so much of our limited pwr and drain our cap so seriously when used. Love the 'balance' joke. I feel an award for best joke on a forum coming on..."and the winner is!!"
quick ban me before i do all this again in another thread and make even more enemies of the dev lovers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Inquisition
Long live the Inquisition
Long live the Emperor
Long live Amarr!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
Juju Mojo
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Posted - 2003.07.02 23:08:00 -
[49]
Something is definately off then. Maybe the problem is only with the Stabber (well, and all the speeds listed on the ships as you veiw their info in the market)? I am flying at 216 in my Stabber. I have level 4 navigate, so doing the math that means my base speed (180) plus navigate would be, 216. The Stabber seems to have gotten no increase to base speed at all. |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.02 23:15:00 -
[50]
<<<Balance the fact that proj take so little pwr, have better range and damage now and therefore a proj user can now fit all those lovely mods to improve armour/sheild/speed ec that the rest of us have had to do without because our 'balance' is guns that take so much of our limited pwr and drain our cap so seriously when used. Love the 'balance' joke. I feel an award for best joke on a forum coming on..."and the winner is!!">>>
annoing - you didn't read any of my post did you?
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annoing
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Posted - 2003.07.03 00:12:00 -
[51]
MORKT:
you are right, i didnt, but i have now...and it still doesnt change what i said. Lasers are useless now and thats that. Projectiles still own over hybrids now too. All that lovely pwr to play with settings with will ultimately give the better advantage. As for the proj ship not being able to vclose you doen...in tactics i wouldnt even try. id wait for you to try to close in on me instead.
The patch is crap, badly thought out and useless in the extreme to those of us unlucky to be born amarr.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Inquisition
Long live the Inquisition
Long live the Emperor
Long live Amarr!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
Stegorak
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Posted - 2003.07.03 00:18:00 -
[52]
The 5% bonus to medium projectile turret ROF on Minmatar cruisers is not working properly. You should get a decrease in the ROF time but what you actually get is an increase: if you have Minmatar Cruiser lvl3 you get 15% increase in ROF time instead of 15% decrease.
It's not really a bonus but a penalty. |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.03 00:39:00 -
[53]
<<<it still doesnt change what i said. Lasers are useless now and thats that. Projectiles still own over hybrids now too. All that lovely pwr to play with settings with will ultimately give the better advantage. As for the proj ship not being able to vclose you doen...in tactics i wouldnt even try. id wait for you to try to close in on me instead. >>>
power - used it for low-slot mods and cap recharger. Still lost.
Hybrid guy doesnt need to close down the range - the projectile guy does. Thats the point. I think you're a tad confused over this.
<<<<id wait for you to try to close in on me instead>>>
You'd be waiting in your pod for me to close in on you then.
Let me reiterate:
Railgun outranges the projectile - especially in optimal range where damage differential is significant.
3 railguns beats 4 scouts hands down in given situ~.
Despite cap benefit, despite mods, despite bluster and angst.
I can only suggest trying it on chaos to see for yourself rather than dismissing out of hand.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.07.03 00:43:00 -
[54]
The base speed for Minmatar cruisers/battleships is now on Test - 5% ROF Bonus should also work now.
"Where is my hat?" |
Juju Mojo
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:28:00 -
[55]
Yes indeed, the base speeds has been increased now. This is what I am seeing on test now:
Scythe - 185 m/sec
Bellicose - 170 m/sec
Stabber - 200 m/sec
Rupture - 170 m/sec
Typhoon - 140 m/sec
Tempest - 130 m/sec
So the ships are flying at a flat 20 m/sec faster (except the Tempest). I guess I would have to say on the one hand, I am glad you took the time to fix it so promptly. But on the other hand, I am disappointed with the actual base speeds. Prior to this, a skilled Minmatar pilot could get his ship going 25% faster than base speed. Now, the ships just seem marginally faster than the other race's ships (and in some cases, are actually slower than comparable ships). Observe:
Ammar Maller - 160 m/sec
Caldari Moa - 155 m/sec
Gallente Thorax - 165 m/sec
Minmatar Rupture - 170 m/sec
Ammar Omen - 175 m/sec
Caldari Caracal - 170 m/sec
Gallente Vexor - 155 m/sec
Minmatar Stabber - 200 m/sec
Ammar Arbitrator - 155 m/sec
Caldari Blackbird - 175 m/sec
Gallente Celestis - 175 m/sec
Minmatar Bellicose - 170 m/sec
Ammar Auguror - 150 m/sec
Caldari Osprey - 150 m/sec
Gallente Exequror - 155 m/sec
Minmatar Scythe - 185 m/sec
Now, prior to this, the Minmatar cruisers/battleships could attain base speeds (and by base, I am refering to actual base + cruiser skill level) of:
Scythe - 206 m/sec
Bellicose - 187.5 m/sec
Stabber - 225 m/sec
Rupture - 187.5 m/sec
Typhoon - 150 m/sec
Tempest - 131 m/sec (this one is the only one that seems nearly correct compared to it's pre-change stats)
I guess the reason I am raising such a fuss about this is because it is already quite difficult to actually use that speed bonus to your advantage in battle. A marginal speed bonus doesn't matter much. Only when you are significantly faster can you really use it to alter the outcome of the fight. Worse still, Minmatar ships aren't very heavy on the medium slots, so some ships can STILL fly faster just by virtue of the extra medium slot (Moa, for example). If a Rupture and a Moa are facing off, and each has 2 medium modules used up by one sheild booster and one sheild hardener (just for example, it really doesn't matter what they have in those two slots, as long as they each have the same thing), then that leaves one medium slot on the Rupture for an afterburner, and two medium slots on the Moa for two afterburners, which let's it still outpace the Rupture.
Whew. Didn't mean to be so long winded. I'm just very passionate about Minmatar ships and their speed. It is what sets us appart from the other races, and we need a lot of it before it really matters. I hope you see it this way too. |
Varsuuk
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:40:00 -
[56]
Yes, to the Mammoth commenter:
I too have the cash fro mammoth 'upgrade' had it from the day I bought a hoarder (I was lucky mammies werent out I'd have bought it as the best simply as kneejerk) but I can't see buying my races 'best'
It is slower (a speed race) for a bit more cargo - that's good but it galls me u can trick up most races ships (of LOW end) faster than the mammoth.
We can't even equip an MWD if we wanted to - it shouldnt be easy, should need the right skills or mods (not UBER just good choices) but others can, therefore we have no speedster. If the mammoth is the oddity, then the hoarder if it's meant to be the speed-trader should get the powercore to mount one, although I'd prefer seeing this reserved for the top ship - I am not a designer.
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.07.03 02:41:00 -
[57]
I flew a mammoth in beta and I've been flying the current FH Megamaid (II actually, since I was in beta heh) for over a month now in live .. it is by a very large margin the best looking indy of the lot and that fifth medium slot goes some way to helpign with the speed (currently with 5x Monopropelant AB's I can hit about 990m/s ,, LiF's would be faster .. have to fit Diag 1's or reactor control 1's to fit them on with engineering 5 mind .. so no/few CE's :/) but it is a bit gimpy as they go .. bestower beating it by far on cargo with that bonus despite only needing level 1 skill compared to 4 (though I dont regret spending those 8 days to fly the megamaid) and the mwd issue :/
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.03 04:02:00 -
[58]
I also agree that Minmatar ships are actually SLOWER now then what they were. We need more then 20m/s. A 5-10m/s advantage over a moa means little when the moa is better twice as good in almost every stat compared to the stabber.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Flisher Ofatale
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Posted - 2003.07.03 04:23:00 -
[59]
don't forget that speed also go again'st you in close combat, the more fast you move, the better tracking you need yourself to target...
What is recusrivity? it's recusrive... |
ProphetKiller
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Posted - 2003.07.03 04:33:00 -
[60]
THANK YOU DEV TEAM! These are some of the changes we have been waiting for! These will make combat a little more fun and the new modules will be fun to find:) I'll be getting off work and coming home to a new patch:) Now i'm getting gitty... well... not really... but I am excited to hear about the positive changes. GJ dev team. <applause>
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