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TomB	Posted - 2003.07.01 23:31:00 - [1] Hello Hello We will be introducing alot of fixes and changes to combat in the next patch. Combat should get bit more tactical than before and alot more balance, people will be able to survive longer in battle and we also have new defence modules somewhere out there (no hints). The major changes that will be done are that turrets with lower tracking speed will be poor to use at short range, and almost impossible to hit small objects at high transversal speed. Frigate for example with 150mm Railguns or Artillery Cannons will get their ass kicked by another with short range high tracking turrets, cruiser with 4X 250mm Railguns will have a hard time with a frigate using close-up weapons at close range, and so will battleships with 1400mm Howitzers vs. Cruisers at close range. The physics engine has already been updated to the test server with code for accuracy and we will be balancing combat now a-lot. So if you plan to help on testing combat, expect alot of reboots on the test server, we will try to get people on the in-game "eve-chaos" chat channel and on the #eve-chaos (irc.coldfront.net) IRC chat channel to notify when a reboot is about to take place. Please no flames if you don't get words on the reboot :Ì Short list of importand bug fixes for combat (from a very big list): * Hybrid weapons have had their ammo capacity reduced a bit and the uber ammo capacity of the meta types has been fixed. * Medium and Large Projectile turrets have had their ammo capacity reduced alot to reflect the ammo capacity of the small projectile turrets (artilleries 20 rounds, howitzers 10 rounds). * Rapid Firing skill now stacks per level. * Surgical Strike bug affecting all damage modification attributes has been fixed. * Small, Medium and Large turret skills stacking for damage has been fixed. If you have any comments, please speak up anywhere you feel like. Edited to correct IRC server address "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.07.01 23:41:00 - [2] Maybe forgot to add some comments about NPC Pirates: NPC Pirates should get a bit tougher after next patch but not as tough as they are currently on the test server. I will try to get them updated at the same time as turrets get an update. But still people should beware that the current NPC Pirates on the Live server are far to easy to kill at higher level. The reason is mostyl because of the stacking turret skills and the surgical strike bug. A player should never be able to take out 3-4 big cruiser NPC Pirates solo on a cruise himself. Players have been getting used to it on the Live server, so we will reduce their abilities abit, specially since they have an advantage of no limits on ammo and capacitor. Instead we will bring you some bigger pirates also to play with. And also, currently hybrid weapons have had tuning on tracking speed if players are intressted. We will see how combats comes from these changes and then change projectiles and lasers as well and tune these all together. And my last also; forgot to add that range modifier for ammo is now working. "Where is my hat?"
StoreSlem	Posted - 2003.07.01 23:48:00 - [3] about projectiles. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=14519
Hippey	Posted - 2003.07.01 23:59:00 - [4] Great new TomB. I was hoping that tracking indeed would become more of a tactical factor. I will go to chaos and test this soon for you. Is there any word on when ship balancing might get a real hard look into. For example, Minmatar have no cruiser with more then 3 medium slots, Caldari have one with 6. Also, can we see Minmatar ships actually have a bigger speed advantage then 20m/s over the "slow" but heavily armored Caldari ships? ------------------------------------------- If you kill them, they will die! Sport the war, war support The sport is war, total war When victory's really a massacre. The final swing is not a drill It's how many people I can kill!
Shauna	Posted - 2003.07.01 23:59:00 - [5] Two questions: 1) Since surgical strike is being fixed... will the high end weapon mods (ie. stamped heat sinks) be returned to their previouls 17% bonus levels? 2) It was mentioned that a solo cruiser shouldn't be able to take on 4-5 similar-level pirate cruisers. What is the expected balance for, say, a high-end cruiser outfitted for combat versus the low end pirate cruisers?
Vegeta	Posted - 2003.07.02 05:08:00 - [6] "Instead we will bring you some bigger pirates also to play with." You have just made my day 2005.04.25 16:40:42 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes LawrenceNewton [WARAG], wrecking for 2706.9 damage.
Varsuuk	Posted - 2003.07.02 05:39:00 - [7] I agree on ships (I am a min) I WANT to see differences in ships, but please consider that most ships will have 1 sort of speed boost (not necessarily MWDs now ;P) and that the boosted speed is likely to cut diffs dramatically. Buteven when this is not so, the speed diff of 20 (not all min ships are faster than equiv other races like cald) the guy above stated, does not compare to the med slots - THOSE allow for 'fun' modules and things like webby, ruptors for defensive offense and shield hardeners etc way too much to list. Min have less med and small - fine, but balance this properly with other advantages (we also have nearly nill drons - fine again but balance it) If SPEED is it only... :( then make the speed matter more - tracking will be in, so up the speed to make us rely on speed more? I dunno, currently I am training on my 2 mins one of each of the other races cos I am not too satisfied and I hate that :( (note will NEVER EVER train an Amarr spits dog's ship type tho)
Muaddid	Posted - 2003.07.02 05:55:00 - [8] Question to TomB >> does the hybrid dmg bonus that gallente frigates/cruisers/BS have will be fixed ? atm a gallente cruiser using small or large hybrids wont get the bonus, only on medium... BS on large only, frigs on small only... On vacations (need a new sig too)
TomB	Posted - 2003.07.02 06:31:00 - [9] Muaddid: I did not know about this bug, I'll try to get this fixed for upcoming patch. Varsuuk: We know that the Minmatar ships are a bit too weak at this time, making them faster or more aggressive as their nature is will be sorted out. But I can't promise you when this will happen. "Where is my hat?"
Jaabaa	Posted - 2003.07.02 07:18:00 - [10] Quote: We know that the Minmatar ships are a bit too weak at this time, making them faster or more aggressive as their nature is will be sorted out. Yes, :) great news :) :) Quote: But I can't promise you when this will happen. I can't wait for Minmatar to stop being the "cruiser" underdog :) -- Jaabaa - CEO - Dental Drilling Corporation
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.07.02 07:22:00 - [11] I played for a couple of hours on chaos last night, and it all seems to be working very well. The new tracking seems to be pretty good also, so you can't totally ream frigates with a 250mm hybrid any more. It takes time (I only had 250's and AM M on chaos) Didn't have time to go up against any cruisers, but after reading this, it's probably just as well :) .
Temujin Destovai	Posted - 2003.07.02 08:11:00 - [12] Finally ;) This is much needed good news. The Chronicles of Xanadu
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.07.02 08:32:00 - [13] \o\\o//o/ Let go test this :) [Heterocephalus glaber]
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2003.07.02 08:49:00 - [14] I just went through the fitting process: --- 250mm RG (Base specs) Damage: 2.5 Opt Range: 20000 Falloff: 10000 ROF: 6 --- Skill mod: Damage: 2.875 Opt Range: 23000 Falloff: 10000 ROF: 4.875 --- Fit 2x Basic Magnetic Field Stabilizers Damage: 3.17 Opt Range: 23000 Falloff: 10000 ROF: 4.38 --- Load Antimatter-M Damage: 3.17 Opt Range: 11500 Falloff: 10000 ROF: 5.1 --- I think that the ammo should only effect the falloff, and not the optimal range. Or maybe only change the optimal range with 50% effect and the falloff at 100%. i.e. from: Opt Range: 23000 Falloff: 10000 to Opt Range: 17250 (-(230000.550%)) Half Falloff: 5000 (-(100001.050%)) Full Edit: "Basic Magnetic Field Stabilizer"s work again after server restart. Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 02/07/2003 09:45:41 -- Intergalactic Teeth Pullers "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2003.07.02 09:34:00 - [15] I just went through the fitting process again: --- 650mm Art (Base specs) Damage: 3.25 Opt Range: 7500 Falloff: 25000 ROF: 13.5 --- Skill mod: Damage: 3.25 Opt Range: 8625 Falloff: 25000 ROF: 10.9 Med Proj Skill does not change damage mod --- Fit 2x Basic Gyro Stabilizers Damage: 4.3 Opt Range: 8625 Falloff: 25000 ROF: 9.86 --- Load EMP-M Damage: 4.3 Opt Range: 4312.5 Falloff: 25000 ROF: 9.86 --- If the ammo were to do as I suggested in previous post then it would look like: Opt Range: 6468.75 Falloff: 12500 -- Intergalactic Teeth Pullers "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2003.07.02 09:54:00 - [16] 250mm RG with Antimatter-M - Kinetic Damage: 38 - Thermal Damage: 31 - Total: 69 (in 10 secs to match the 650mm Art: 138) Opt Range: 11500 Falloff: 10000 ROF: 5.1 --- 650mm Art with EMP-M - Kinetic Damage: 17 - EM Damage: 43 - Explosive Damage: 34 - Total: 84 Opt Range: 4312.5 Falloff: 25000 ROF: 9.86 -- Intergalactic Teeth Pullers "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Conception	Posted - 2003.07.02 10:05:00 - [17] yup better change full only the falloff, not optimal range, because with this the rails are 2 week. they are designed as long range weapons and suddenly they hit only from a distance where projectiles hit too. on eve-i.com forum was a nice example for the laser weapon. Optimal: 14400m Sharpshooter lev4: 1.20x Radio: 1.6x 144001.21.6 = ~27km so a laser weapon hit from far away and a designed long range weapon have to go 50% closer... what a perfect tuning Mit freundlichen Gr³¯en / with kind regards Conception
Demangel	Posted - 2003.07.02 10:19:00 - [18] I like 99% of these changes if taken by the numbers, but... I'm not too sure hyrbids are getting enough love. I'll have to try and test em maybe to see, but for the life of me I STILL feel hybrids using AM ammo should outrange projectiles using EMP ammo. Currently if you use Anti Matter Ammo your absolute max range is LESS than the projectiles, and somehow that screems imbalanced to me. IE why would you use Anti matter at all since it does less (Antimatter of all things does LESS!? The stuff that is supposed to be able to cancel out normal matter with tremendous energy!?) damage, and gives such poor range? I still have to test chaos, but if this wasn't fixed: 425MM scout near ultimate max range using EMP ammo will do more damage than a 250MM hyrbid at the same range. IE 425 has a ultimate max of 31KM with EMP? right? 250MM prototype hybrid has an ultimate max range of 22-24KM or something like that with Antimatter right? Now I'm not sure any longer what the ROF is for the 425MM scout, but unless your changed it, last I heard it was unboosted at about .5 seconds SLOWER than the Hybrid prototype... .5 seconds? should be more like 2.5 or something maybe LOL Oh well I'll just need someone to pass me a med projectile skill pack and a 425MM scout and a 250MM prototype and check it out. But by eyeballing it, it still "looks" unbalanced for the cost of so much CPU and Powergrid to use the hybrid instead of the 425MM, and I KNOW unless you changed it, the 425 probably holds more than enough ammo still to not make the 250MM worth it... even 20 ammo is a LOT for a gun like that with so little drawbacks... Oh well like I said I need to test all this myself anyway so This is more of a question than a comment heheh I can live with hybrids having poorer range with Anti matter than Projectiles with EMP ammo, but only if projectile turrets suffer damage penalties properly from extended ranges. IE Does Damage degrade with range now? Even if it does the projectiles will still outrange the hybrids by a lot, but maybe from a far enough range the damage will be minimal? IE does a 250MM arty (projectile) firing at 15KM with EMP s do less cumulative/average doamage than a 150MM hybrid with Antimatter S at the same range? Actually if your sticking with -50% for antimatter the 150MM rail will actually NEVER reach 15KM LOL how silly of me... >;( so again the projectile will do more damage at longer range... PLEASE put AM ammo back to -30% at least then we stood a chance at using them ;) It SHOULD you know... thats if your being faithfull to the whole point of hybrids anyway. :) Not asking for hyrbids to be satans uber hammer of death at any range or anything, just that they do what they are supposed to: have a range advantage that makes up for the less damage of the rounds themselves. Oh well time to go try and test. Now lets see... do I bust out the 250MM arty for frigate splatting on my cruiser, or the 125MM hybrid? Oh well hehehe practice makes perfect :) Edited by: Demangel on 02/07/2003 10:31:10 Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit.
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.07.02 10:51:00 - [19] Hmmm, satans uber hammer of death. Now there's something that would fill a top slot... .
Doom	Posted - 2003.07.02 10:54:00 - [20] All I can say is please stop using Antimatter ammo in your examples. There ARE other ammos. A Long range Railgun should be firing a less volatile ammo of it wants to be a sniping weapon. Short range Blasters are what antimatter ammo was really meant for... they have almost no range to penalize. Long range Progectiles SHOULD do more damage (per shot) than railguns... We are talking about slow firing big hitters. Damage over time should be similar however. Short range Projectiles.... Well, nobody really cares :) Other than that... I gotta say that I have been waiting for this day to come for quite some time :) You can not escape your Doom...
soltys	Posted - 2003.07.02 10:55:00 - [21] Why do 250mm have tracking: 0.02 (?) optimal: 5k, falloff 15k rof 7.5 (!?) damage 3.25 whereas: 150mm railgun: tracking: 0.03 optimal: 12k, falloff 6k rof: 4 damage 2.5 Railgun is definitely longrange gun, so imo, it should have bigger damage modifier, worse rof, and worse tracking. DoT should be the same, maybe bigger (due to energy requirement). Also long range weapon probably shouldn't hold more rounds than medium range weapon. 250mm doesn't aspire to be long range gun after all. And as always, howitzers are even more useless now then they were before (tracking cut to half). ---------------------------------------------------------- Damage stats: click version v1.1.02 retail.
Busko Moonwalker	Posted - 2003.07.02 11:24:00 - [22] Proj guns are low tech and should make less damge :D the big adv with them should be no energy usage when fired. And laser should TAKE way more then Hybrid in power grid (actualy i dont know how much they take :D dont remeber :D ) Thats what is feeding them. The big adv with lasers are no ammo :D Hybrids Power core usage should be lowered i think. But the new tracking and ammo changes will not work in PvP battle or when you run around solo. Battels are WAY TO SHORT give all the ships EXTRA 50% shield and armor and stuff will change. what good is my Rail gun tha have a optimal at 24K when i drop from warp at 20 to 15 K from pirats or jumpgates. With this paper armor and shield i will be in a pod before i even get off 1 shot. I think CCP have spined away from the pros and cons of the gun in the hunt for balance. I bet peeps are sick and tired to recheck there ships after every patch coz something may have been changed. Whit all this PIP nerfing going on :(. /Busko
Guilbert	Posted - 2003.07.02 12:03:00 - [23] (Frigate for example with 150mm Railguns or Artillery Cannons will get their ass kicked by another with short range high tracking turrets, cruiser with 4X 250mm Railguns will have a hard time with a frigate using close-up weapons at close range, and so will battleships with 1400mm Howitzers vs. Cruisers at close range.) so whats that gonna change? make frigates now a treat to cruisers? not at all,frigates gets webbed and there goes his bonus in close range fighting.there are no counter measures gainst webbing and even if,fighting frigates dont have any slots left. anyhow wasnt the higher mm guns ment to be the better waepons? like artillery saying its the best gun mountable on a frigate.. i luv frigates and im really waiting for some changes that would actually make them any usefull in pvp.. Mess with the best.. ..and die like the rest
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.07.02 12:17:00 - [24] guilbert, if someone is webbing you, you can still shoot at them, and if it's a cruiser, then the closer you are to webbing range, the less damage their guns will do (unless they have blasters) You could also target lock him, ECM burst to clear the lock, or just stack up on ECM kit. Also bear in mind that a single frigate will never be a threat to a cruiser, unless the cruiser pilot is asleep. But when you get 2 or 3 frigates, it will put a cruiser in serious trouble. They can only web one person at a time. And if they're carrying a webber, then they must have cut short their 'fighting' loadout. You're proposing a situation where everybody has the right loadout for the job (webbers). The chances of this happening are very slim. For instance, the cruiser might have a load of Radar ECM kit, but your ship might use gravimetric targetting, and thus he will have two or three modules that can't do anything against you. Situational combat like this is very hard to balance due to the enormous amount of variables that could come to battle. But I think it will stop the whole issue of the 'uber-weapons'. A 425 scout with EM might have the power, but as long as you are quicker, and can sit at 25km with thorium charges, the battle is yours. same with missiles. And drones. .
Demangel	Posted - 2003.07.02 12:37:00 - [25] Ok then Doom Explain to me how the 425MM is balanced to the 250MM prototype? As far as sniping goes... bigger + better bullet in real life generally means better range and hitting power. So don't tell me sniping weapons should hurt less, and since this ISN'T sniping we're talking about i STILl think your wrong... Also if AM ammo was MEANT for blasters then what is EMP's made for? why is it wrong to compare AM and EMP? Want me to compare Carbonized lead and Iron charges? you might learn something else... how about iridium charges? go play with the numbers and you will see that there is a point to using AM ammo... and the other types, but the point for using AM ammo is silly. stop trying to wieght the tests so you come out looking good. ;) I KNOW you will still be using EMP M on your 425 scout... Also how come blasters have thier optimal killed by AM so badly? Not killed you say? -50% not so bad you say? try going from 700M (already insainly short), to 350M optimal... see how you like it ;) Have you ever even USED a hyrbid before? again I'm not looking for hybrids to be the best, just balanced. On chaos today some folks played with 425MM's and unless they where lying they still owned 250MM prototypes at ANY RANGE. Also look at the potential damage of the ammo types: Hybrids are supposed to be good long range projectile weapons, they are meant to pay for this with cap use and fitting requirements. Right now the best hybrids are being outranged, outdamaged, and outclassed by the best projectile guns. SMALL turrets arn't so bad 250MM light arties DO have a disgustingly slow ROF. But again people are forgetting the gyrostabalizers... With two or three of them on with the right skills the projectile turrets WILL have a ROF that can meet or beat that of ANY hybrid. Magnetic stabs have disgusting requirements, meaning even in cruisers if you mount five of them without a co processor your not going to have any room for even a low end medium hybrid. mount four and you can mount ONE gun... Mount three or four gyros though in a maller and you can still mount anything else you want by comparison. go and try it on Chaos my friend, and your eyes will be opened. Or is that really why your arguing with me? do you REALLy want to keep powning people in your cruiser with your L337 425MMs? Anyway no disrespect, just friendly ribbing ;) hope you see the point though hybrids are all but broken on Chaos now. at -30% range from Antimatter ammo it was a close enough gap between ranges that I could live with it... but at -50% it's just plain broken... End of story. Edited by: Demangel on 02/07/2003 12:39:10 Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit.
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.07.02 12:47:00 - [26] if AM M is -50% then what of the other ammo types? could someone with access to chaos get the range mods for all ammo? I know it's a tall order, but the information could be useful. .
Mara Nightshade	Posted - 2003.07.02 12:54:00 - [27] Does the agility modifier also affect the possibility of being hit? I think it will make the frigates a lot more intresting if it evades hits easier than a plump cruiser or battle ship. ----------------------------------------------- Catch Up! Mara Nightshade -----------------------------------------------
Demangel	Posted - 2003.07.02 12:56:00 - [28] Guilbert frigates WILL be more useful in PVP now, but I made a point some time ago: cruisers offer more options as well as more slots armor and bigger guns: YES: a cruiser with all short range weapons with webbifiers and such WILL own a large group of frigates easily enough. No: a cruiser with all long range weapons wil not own frigates. the webifier will likely not be mounted on long range oriented cruisers very often after this patch, and although some people will do just that, they are paying cap and med slot to be able to do so... So that means against another cruiser they will have one less med slot to throw at an enemy. It's a game of tactics and strategy, in a well balanced game of such, every type of unit has a valid reason for being involved in every situation, and there is always a valid counterresponse to that unit. Remember if there are five of you fighting that cruiser with a webber, that cruiser needs to use up five targetting thingies... if his max is four, he can't hit you all at once. meaning someone will do some decent damage without being scratched. those five frigates cost a fraction of what the cruiser costs... meaning the loss of even four of them means nothing. Remember your a diversion/strike craft. Not meant for sieging or slugging it out. your role is to harrass the big guys, and guard them from other little guys. Trust me this isn't quite perfect yet, but it;s close enough now that you as a frigate fan (heck I miss flyin em too sometimes), WILL have a role in PVP after this patch. Just be ready to adapt to new tactics, and be ready to die a bit more than I would in my cruiser. Considering how cheap it is to fly a frigate and have the skills to do it well, you could die two or three times for every one time I die, and not be in as bad a shape. If your solo, even WITH the new mechanics, your better off just running 90% of the time anyway, that is also pretty accurate and fair. Just remember your proper role and I think you will be happy, I know I would be. so like I said: perfect? no... Better? oh hell yes! furthermore in a proper group: 1 cruiser +5 frigates, most players will concentrate ALL fire on the cruiser till its down. that leave you free to do your job pretty much of harrassing the enemy cruiser, and defending YOUR cruiser against THERE frigates. think about it: 1 cruiser +5 frigates against the same sized enemy group. The first side to lose a ship is now at a real disadvantage no matter what class it is... and now NOT haviung either an anti frigate cruiser, or a flight of frigates in your groupings will mean your at a disadvantage. think about it :) Edited by: Demangel on 02/07/2003 12:59:52 Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit.
BSOD	Posted - 2003.07.02 13:11:00 - [29] "guilbert, if someone is webbing you, you can still shoot at them, and if it's a cruiser, then the closer you are to webbing range, the less damage their guns will do (unless they have blasters)" Minor error here: The close-range penalty is due to tracking speed. Stationary or near-stationary (webified) target = sitting duck at close range. A single frigate against a cruiser should not have a chance unless the cruiser pilot is unprepared or asleep. But in such a situation, 2-3 frigates would chew that cruiser alive. ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises
Demangel	Posted - 2003.07.02 13:26:00 - [30] BSOD I wouldn't say NO chance, but I agree that a snowballs chance in hell is about accurate hehehe. A lone frigate against an unprepared (badly loaded out) cruiser should be able to take a bite out of the cruiser. IF: The cruiser lacks any short range weapons/webbifiers AND the frigate manages to get close enough without dying. HOWEVER: the cruiser would almost always be capable of warping out before a lone frigate could hope to do enough damage to it to completely kill it's shields. your right though, three frigates now DO have a VERY good chance of killing a Cruiser that is outfitted for long range fighting... Before it took three-four top of the line perfectly outfitted frigates with highly skilled characters controlling them and the cruiser had to be low end, damaged or equiped with very basic weapons... Now a guy two weeks into the game should stand a chance of being of some use in PVP. He won't be l337 or anything, but worth having as part of an escort in the rear of the fleet :) Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit.
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.07.02 13:53:00 - [31] "The close-range penalty is due to tracking speed." oops, heh, that's what I meant. It just came out back to front. The damage they can do is the same, but the chances of them hitting you are reduced, thus, less damage. Edited by: drunkenmaster on 02/07/2003 13:56:11 .
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2003.07.02 14:06:00 - [32] How about this ? Just make falloff equal to 50% of the optimal range ? -- Intergalactic Teeth Pullers "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Valeria	Posted - 2003.07.02 14:08:00 - [33] TomB, how about range bonuses on Caldari cruisers from the Caldari cruiser skill? My Blackbird does not get the extra 15% it should from level 3 CC skill. I've reported this ages ago. Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage.
Selena PhalanX	Posted - 2003.07.02 14:27:00 - [34] About the ammo range modifier, why would you want to cut from both opti and falloff? If you'd want that its more likely that opti should be cut only by 25% of the modifier and the falloff by 75%. Just my two cents.
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2003.07.02 14:45:00 - [35] Because if I am using ammo that is big and heavy enough to effect the optimal range, then it should IMHO also effect the falloff. But, seeing as it's a vacuum, there shouldn't be a range ;) Just let the round keep on going, and hit some poor miner in the next asteroid belt 3 days later, and get a sec hit for it too :) -- Intergalactic Teeth Pullers "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2003.07.02 15:49:00 - [36] ---buggy quote text-biggerer eschewed: Varsuuk: We know that the Minmatar ships are a bit too weak at this time, making them faster or more aggressive as their nature is will be sorted out. But I can't promise you when this will happen. --- I lub you. ;) You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Cymoril	Posted - 2003.07.02 17:37:00 - [37] Maybe the devs are planning on tech level 2 and higher ammo in the future? All the power (or more power), and less range mods? Something to think about before you get all bent out of shape over range mods.
MindBender	Posted - 2003.07.02 17:55:00 - [38] Cymoril, It is not so much the dmg mods that people are complaining about. It is the obvious imbalance that they create between the weapons classes. When best Hybrid (description says these are supposed to be long range guns) using highest dmg ammo ends up having almost 1/2 the range of best projectile (description says med range) using highest dmg ammo and 1/2 the range of best laser using highest dmg crystal there is a problem. The optimal range is still longer on hybrids however hybrids can almost not hit OUTSIDE of optimal range whereas both projectile and laser seem to hit with the same consistancy out to their MAX range. And since both of these weapon types have massive falloff values hybrids are no longer an option. I spent about 2 weeks training time to bring hybrid skills up to level 4. This change does 2 things to my char. First that 2 weeks I spent training has been totally wasted. Second I now have to spend that same amount of time training a new weapon skill to be able to kill the same NPC's I am now killing. Not to mention I now have to go buy or find all new weapons. It also means that all of the ships that give bonus to hybrid weapons just became obsolete.
Virulence	Posted - 2003.07.02 18:31:00 - [39] minmatar ships SHOULD be weak. here is why: they are a just recently formed 'empire'. they didnt have the R&D in order to compete with the gallente, which are mostly traders, caldari which are really into militarization and especially the amarr who are expansionist, militaristic, and have the most resources of all the empires. i mean this is a mmorpg with emphasis on rpg. there should be consequences for picking the underdog race, namely, you have a disadvantage. all the ships should reflect their respective EMPIRE not some sort of artificial balancing because of whiners. Edited by: Virulence on 02/07/2003 18:33:12 shadows and dust
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2003.07.02 19:01:00 - [40] I only read the first page (it had all the info I needed) but this is some info for you people not in the know. Antimatter is not something that destroys real matter, or neutralizes it or anything of the sort. Antimatter is a real substance and scientists can create it today (albeit in very minute quantities--millionths of a gram here). Do a search on google and try to piece together the bits of info you can about the subject if you want to know more (there isnt to much info about it), but to give you a quick summary of what anti matter is he ya go: In physics we have atoms and electrons, the further you look at atoms you find quarks and other sub atomic particles, while we have these, we also have anti-atoms, anti-electrons, and anti-quarks............the list goes on. I forget how we make anti-matter, but its something like firing two atoms at each other at high velocities over a long distance. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2003.07.02 20:36:00 - [41] \|-optimal--\|-Faloff---------------\| \|--100%---\|90%-----50%-----0%\| <<Accuracy (tracking and skills combine to define what exactly 100% is but within optimal you always have your full chance, in falloff you have less than your full chance) Thats how I understand optimal and falloff working if you reduce optimal it also reduces the max range and lowers the relative accuracy at most ranges, lower accuracy means poorer hits for less damage or no hits. Hybrids have a higher optimal, lower falloff because that means if there in range there more likely to have a 100% accuracy than not, whereas hybrid have short optimals and long falloffs - meaning there accuracy starts to drop off very early Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 02/07/2003 20:42:09 . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
TomB	Posted - 2003.07.02 21:34:00 - [42] Importand announcement hidden inside this thread: Changes done to Minmatar cruisers and battleships; they have more base speed now than before - 5% speed bonus is OUT - 5% projectile ROF is in. If you want to test this, this is on the Test server - if you want to comment, go right ahead. "Where is my hat?"
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.07.02 21:43:00 - [43] Rightho Folks: Listen up. I vill only say zis vonce! (j/k) Just finsihed some testing on Chaos with TomB. Essentially my point was that a Railgun equipped Moa had no chance against a porjectile equipped Moa. The Moa can mount 4 dual425scouts and only 3 250 prototypes. The projectile guns can still hit out to the same or greater total range than the proto 250. The projectile doesnt use cap and all that cap can go into boosting shields. So - heres what we did: 2 moas, one with 3 (THREE) protoype 250s, one with 4 dual425 scouts, 2 shield boosters and low and mid slot cap recharge bonuses. FIrst fight: 28km Hybrid usess Anti-matter, projectile uses EMP. The shorter ranged 250 proto ship tries to close down the distance - but cant. The projectile ship wins as soon as the prototype ship runs out of cap - one dead Moa. Projectile owns. However: Second fight: Hybrid uses thorium charges. Proj uses Depleted Uranium (same range mods) Hybrid Moa (remember only 3 guns) absolutely totally overwhelmingly owns the Porjectile Moa. Simply because the projectile Moa is now inside optimal range. The projectile Moa tired to increase range so that both guns are in falloff- but it simply cant do it. It cant even keep up with shield recahrge and is out cap very quickly. - - - I will admit to being extremely dubious about the changes and the only posible way i would be convinced is via a hard test . Have to say im convinced. You get inside the optimal range of a railgun and you are going to get hurt (until you can get close enough to orbit it, for say a frigate, in which case it cant touch you, we also tested that for proj and hybrid railguns). Stas wise and even powergrid wise it looks all in the projectiles favour - isnt the case in practice though. (RoF changes are in also and taken into account in this test btw) So - its actually fairly well balanced. Looking good so far anyway.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2003.07.02 22:44:00 - [44] cool change on the minnie ships TomB :) I notice your ships/combat guy though ;) so any chance the minnie indys could get a similar one ? right now most of them are slower than the competition without the racial speed bonus and a touch faster with it - which kinda wastes the bonus considering there supposed to be the fastest race anyway :P (Also the Mammoth being the biggest most powerfull indy of the speed-race being unable to fit an MWD (it gets to 49.9 grid max with current tech) when the Bestower (low tech ship of slow/low tech amarr) and Iteron V both can .. is odd) ahem anyway sorry getting OT slaps own wrist :P edit add Oh and was my little explanation of accuracy above your last post right ? I'd love to know :) Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 02/07/2003 22:52:19 . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Samus	Posted - 2003.07.02 22:50:00 - [45] "Combat should get bit more tactical..." ie appease the carebears. Ammo capacity on proj weapons will be ridiculously low if you stick to those numbers, and the range penalties on some of the better railgun ammo is a bit too much still.
Juju Mojo	Posted - 2003.07.02 22:53:00 - [46] Quote: Importand announcement hidden inside this thread: Changes done to Minmatar cruisers and battleships; they have more base speed now than before - 5% speed bonus is OUT - 5% projectile ROF is in. If you want to test this, this is on the Test server - if you want to comment, go right ahead. I just logged on to test, and these are the stats I saw when looking at the Minmatar cruisers and battleships in the market: Scythe - 165 m/sec Bellicose - 150 m/sec Stabber - 180 m/sec Rupture - 150 m/sec Typhoon - 120 m/sec Tempest - 105 m/sec And no mention of them getting any speed boost based on the skill level of the pilot. So, I pulled my trusty Stabber out of the hanger and took it for a spin... getting the bonus for my navigation skill, but nothing else. So the 5% speed bonus is indeed OUT, but there is no increase in base speed. Please please fix this before tomorrow. Us Min's are very proud of our fast ships, and creeping around at the same speed as those, ahem, 'other' races will not do at all. Thanks in advance!
Hippey	Posted - 2003.07.02 22:57:00 - [47] Hmmm.. well something is definetly odd. I used to go 228m/s in the rupture but now I got 199m/s If the cruiser bonus doesn't work, and only navigation does, I would got 180m/s. But I got 199m/s So what seems is that the ship indeed got a speed bonus, but the ship bonus isn't working afterall. ------------------------------------------- If you kill them, they will die! Sport the war, war support The sport is war, total war When victory's really a massacre. The final swing is not a drill It's how many people I can kill!
annoing	Posted - 2003.07.02 23:02:00 - [48] To TOMB: When you say 'should survive longer in battle' you are obviously talking to those who want to, like to, or have to, fight in a PvP situation. What about those of us who actively avoid pvp because we spend all our time hunting npc pirates? where does this 'balance' suit me? oh that right, it doesnt. Where does all this balancing suit those who use energy turrets? oh thats right, it doesnt. Or hybrids...again...it doesnt. So we are told to be more tactical? use more drones or missiles maybe? well. and im sure you'd remember if you tried, Amarr cruisers are not missile complient and the Maller has no drone capabilities either. Parity and balance? where? i admit that i have spent all day moaning in these forums in as many threads as i can to stick the knife into you lot and yet another of your worthless patches. But you lot deserve it. Balance and parity...look it up in the dictionary because im sure it describes something different to you than it does to me. Fix something that is actually broken and affects everyone, like the market bugs and exploits. Now have me banned from the forum because im as bored of writing this as you lot are in reading it. Just wish the DEVS would actually listen to the ordinary player and not the big corps who have friends in high places. LOL at the 'balance' statement from Tomb...good one. Balance the fact that proj take so little pwr, have better range and damage now and therefore a proj user can now fit all those lovely mods to improve armour/sheild/speed ec that the rest of us have had to do without because our 'balance' is guns that take so much of our limited pwr and drain our cap so seriously when used. Love the 'balance' joke. I feel an award for best joke on a forum coming on..."and the winner is!!" quick ban me before i do all this again in another thread and make even more enemies of the dev lovers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Inquisition Long live the Inquisition Long live the Emperor Long live Amarr! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Juju Mojo	Posted - 2003.07.02 23:08:00 - [49] Something is definately off then. Maybe the problem is only with the Stabber (well, and all the speeds listed on the ships as you veiw their info in the market)? I am flying at 216 in my Stabber. I have level 4 navigate, so doing the math that means my base speed (180) plus navigate would be, 216. The Stabber seems to have gotten no increase to base speed at all.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.07.02 23:15:00 - [50] <<<Balance the fact that proj take so little pwr, have better range and damage now and therefore a proj user can now fit all those lovely mods to improve armour/sheild/speed ec that the rest of us have had to do without because our 'balance' is guns that take so much of our limited pwr and drain our cap so seriously when used. Love the 'balance' joke. I feel an award for best joke on a forum coming on..."and the winner is!!">>> annoing - you didn't read any of my post did you?
annoing	Posted - 2003.07.03 00:12:00 - [51] MORKT: you are right, i didnt, but i have now...and it still doesnt change what i said. Lasers are useless now and thats that. Projectiles still own over hybrids now too. All that lovely pwr to play with settings with will ultimately give the better advantage. As for the proj ship not being able to vclose you doen...in tactics i wouldnt even try. id wait for you to try to close in on me instead. The patch is crap, badly thought out and useless in the extreme to those of us unlucky to be born amarr. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Inquisition Long live the Inquisition Long live the Emperor Long live Amarr! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Stegorak	Posted - 2003.07.03 00:18:00 - [52] The 5% bonus to medium projectile turret ROF on Minmatar cruisers is not working properly. You should get a decrease in the ROF time but what you actually get is an increase: if you have Minmatar Cruiser lvl3 you get 15% increase in ROF time instead of 15% decrease. It's not really a bonus but a penalty.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.07.03 00:39:00 - [53] <<<it still doesnt change what i said. Lasers are useless now and thats that. Projectiles still own over hybrids now too. All that lovely pwr to play with settings with will ultimately give the better advantage. As for the proj ship not being able to vclose you doen...in tactics i wouldnt even try. id wait for you to try to close in on me instead. >>> power - used it for low-slot mods and cap recharger. Still lost. Hybrid guy doesnt need to close down the range - the projectile guy does. Thats the point. I think you're a tad confused over this. <<<<id wait for you to try to close in on me instead>>> You'd be waiting in your pod for me to close in on you then. Let me reiterate: Railgun outranges the projectile - especially in optimal range where damage differential is significant. 3 railguns beats 4 scouts hands down in given situ~. Despite cap benefit, despite mods, despite bluster and angst. I can only suggest trying it on chaos to see for yourself rather than dismissing out of hand.
TomB	Posted - 2003.07.03 00:43:00 - [54] The base speed for Minmatar cruisers/battleships is now on Test - 5% ROF Bonus should also work now. "Where is my hat?"
Juju Mojo	Posted - 2003.07.03 01:28:00 - [55] Yes indeed, the base speeds has been increased now. This is what I am seeing on test now: Scythe - 185 m/sec Bellicose - 170 m/sec Stabber - 200 m/sec Rupture - 170 m/sec Typhoon - 140 m/sec Tempest - 130 m/sec So the ships are flying at a flat 20 m/sec faster (except the Tempest). I guess I would have to say on the one hand, I am glad you took the time to fix it so promptly. But on the other hand, I am disappointed with the actual base speeds. Prior to this, a skilled Minmatar pilot could get his ship going 25% faster than base speed. Now, the ships just seem marginally faster than the other race's ships (and in some cases, are actually slower than comparable ships). Observe: Ammar Maller - 160 m/sec Caldari Moa - 155 m/sec Gallente Thorax - 165 m/sec Minmatar Rupture - 170 m/sec Ammar Omen - 175 m/sec Caldari Caracal - 170 m/sec Gallente Vexor - 155 m/sec Minmatar Stabber - 200 m/sec Ammar Arbitrator - 155 m/sec Caldari Blackbird - 175 m/sec Gallente Celestis - 175 m/sec Minmatar Bellicose - 170 m/sec Ammar Auguror - 150 m/sec Caldari Osprey - 150 m/sec Gallente Exequror - 155 m/sec Minmatar Scythe - 185 m/sec Now, prior to this, the Minmatar cruisers/battleships could attain base speeds (and by base, I am refering to actual base + cruiser skill level) of: Scythe - 206 m/sec Bellicose - 187.5 m/sec Stabber - 225 m/sec Rupture - 187.5 m/sec Typhoon - 150 m/sec Tempest - 131 m/sec (this one is the only one that seems nearly correct compared to it's pre-change stats) I guess the reason I am raising such a fuss about this is because it is already quite difficult to actually use that speed bonus to your advantage in battle. A marginal speed bonus doesn't matter much. Only when you are significantly faster can you really use it to alter the outcome of the fight. Worse still, Minmatar ships aren't very heavy on the medium slots, so some ships can STILL fly faster just by virtue of the extra medium slot (Moa, for example). If a Rupture and a Moa are facing off, and each has 2 medium modules used up by one sheild booster and one sheild hardener (just for example, it really doesn't matter what they have in those two slots, as long as they each have the same thing), then that leaves one medium slot on the Rupture for an afterburner, and two medium slots on the Moa for two afterburners, which let's it still outpace the Rupture. Whew. Didn't mean to be so long winded. I'm just very passionate about Minmatar ships and their speed. It is what sets us appart from the other races, and we need a lot of it before it really matters. I hope you see it this way too.
Varsuuk	Posted - 2003.07.03 01:40:00 - [56] Yes, to the Mammoth commenter: I too have the cash fro mammoth 'upgrade' had it from the day I bought a hoarder (I was lucky mammies werent out I'd have bought it as the best simply as kneejerk) but I can't see buying my races 'best' It is slower (a speed race) for a bit more cargo - that's good but it galls me u can trick up most races ships (of LOW end) faster than the mammoth. We can't even equip an MWD if we wanted to - it shouldnt be easy, should need the right skills or mods (not UBER just good choices) but others can, therefore we have no speedster. If the mammoth is the oddity, then the hoarder if it's meant to be the speed-trader should get the powercore to mount one, although I'd prefer seeing this reserved for the top ship - I am not a designer.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2003.07.03 02:41:00 - [57] I flew a mammoth in beta and I've been flying the current FH Megamaid (II actually, since I was in beta heh) for over a month now in live .. it is by a very large margin the best looking indy of the lot and that fifth medium slot goes some way to helpign with the speed (currently with 5x Monopropelant AB's I can hit about 990m/s ,, LiF's would be faster .. have to fit Diag 1's or reactor control 1's to fit them on with engineering 5 mind .. so no/few CE's :/) but it is a bit gimpy as they go .. bestower beating it by far on cargo with that bonus despite only needing level 1 skill compared to 4 (though I dont regret spending those 8 days to fly the megamaid) and the mwd issue :/ . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Hippey	Posted - 2003.07.03 04:02:00 - [58] I also agree that Minmatar ships are actually SLOWER now then what they were. We need more then 20m/s. A 5-10m/s advantage over a moa means little when the moa is better twice as good in almost every stat compared to the stabber. ------------------------------------------- If you kill them, they will die! Sport the war, war support The sport is war, total war When victory's really a massacre. The final swing is not a drill It's how many people I can kill!
Flisher Ofatale	Posted - 2003.07.03 04:23:00 - [59] don't forget that speed also go again'st you in close combat, the more fast you move, the better tracking you need yourself to target... What is recusrivity? it's recusrive...
ProphetKiller	Posted - 2003.07.03 04:33:00 - [60] THANK YOU DEV TEAM! These are some of the changes we have been waiting for! These will make combat a little more fun and the new modules will be fun to find:) I'll be getting off work and coming home to a new patch:) Now i'm getting gitty... well... not really... but I am excited to hear about the positive changes. GJ dev team. <applause>
Sphinxx	Posted - 2003.07.03 04:42:00 - [61] "What is recusrivity? it's recusrive..." Did you mean recursive? And what the hell are you talkin about? Try speakin good old "american" not that mathmatical jargin... ahhaha Lookin for a deal on Caldari ships and other goods??? Please visit our site and make an inquiry as to what it is that you need and when we can provide you with it! What can we do to earn your business today? Offer you the best service and prices around on anything we offer! www.ebfrontieralliance.com
D'ou	Posted - 2003.07.03 07:07:00 - [62] I must agree, 20m/s is about as good as another flashing light on a minmatar cruiser. I'd say a minimum of 100m/s is needed to actually live up to being faster than other cruisers, and I mean minimum. 20m/s is barely anything if you are going to try, for instance, to cover enough ground (space?) to get close enough to shoot a smart rail user with your projectiles. By the time your 20m/s can get you close enough to fire effectively, you are as dead as you would be going 20m/s slower. And to the one saying minmatar should just have terrible ships, you might as well condemn minmatar from being in game and remove them. They need to be balanced in one way or another because this is a competitive game. I repeat, key word here is GAME. Not some space drama/tragedy.
Von Thoma	Posted - 2003.07.03 08:17:00 - [63] Hi there, I am playing strategic wargames since they are out on the computer and before I played boardgames (Advanced Squad Leader from Avalon Hill) you needed hours to build the stacks up and so on ... so dev please don't call EVE strategic in this phase, but if you really want to go this way, I thank you and you are on the right way, still small steps but at least it changed from an action game, what it was now to a slower action game. WHY ... in my opinion distance, could be overcome too fast and too many shots ... all this could be solved very easy ... YES HALF the speed OF ALL SHIPS !!! at least maybe even make them only 33% of it ... BUT ALSO double OR triple the time you could shoot ... really that would be the NEXT step to a strategic game away from an action game. SO NEXT WHAT YOU WILL HAVE IN YOUR GAME IS THAT you could even CHANGE Ammuniation while in battle ... you are closer change the ammuniation ... hey you see you couldn't do any damage to him ... use different typ of ammuniation ... THAT would be a startegic part ... but give us time to see it WE are no computers ... MORE STRATEGIC PART IN THE GAME: REDUCE SHIPSPEED REDUCE ROUNDS OF FIRE per second. ... Next step would be even from where you are shooting AFTER the shield is down !!! Hope this could be a useful idea ... THX for reading Hope there is a way to make it a real strategic game.
Endureth	Posted - 2003.07.03 08:34:00 - [64] I played Advanced Squad Leader also, it was a tactical game, not strategic. EVE, is overall a strategic game, but ship to ship combat is tactical. EVE is a different sort of monster than ASL was though. I will have to see how combat works in the new patch, but from what I am hearing, it's a good start to some much-needed positive changes. A start. A start. A start. There is still a lot of work to do. -E
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.07.03 09:16:00 - [65] I left the pvp to morkt and tomB on chaos last night, and tried the NPC's with my new guns. It actually takes more than 4 mouse clicks and F1-4 to beat a group of cruisers now. Which is a relief. NPC farming was so horribly predictable before, that once you had targetted all the ships, you only had to turn your guns on and go do something else. Arming your ship wasn't simply a case of picking the 'best' gun and loading it with the 'best' ammo. Different guns/ammo will suit different tactics. I'm gonna prepare some ships to sell out in the 0.0's, business will be gooooood tonight. Sorta wish I hadn't recycled several thousand units of M hybrid ammo the other night :/ .
Silmaril	Posted - 2003.07.03 09:17:00 - [66] Von Thoma, I think you're getting mixed up between a strategy game, and strategic elements in combat. As Endureth said, eve is a whole different ball game. Its not a strategy game, but that doesn't mean there is no strategy involved (at least after the patch anyways.) Edited by: Silmaril on 03/07/2003 09:18:53 "Do not waste your tears. I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men."
Serge	Posted - 2003.07.03 09:49:00 - [67] one question to the wepon testers: Has the ROF issue with fast firing guns (ROF=1sec) already been adressed? atm fast firing or similar skills which increase ROF give a DECREASE of ROF with these fast-firing wepons. *********************************************** ... "we suddenly have a good 2 dozen Chicken Littles running about proclaiming tha
TomB	Posted - 2003.07.03 10:06:00 - [68] So, a patch will come in one hour from now with the new changes for combat to the Live server. The changes will affect your gameplay alot. I urge all players to test these combat changes on easy targets to begin with, test ammo and how the accuracy is working, before going deep into space where you could get into trouble. I would like to thank everyone who helped us with testing on the Test server and who were at #eve-chaos, also all comments and feedback I got here on the forums about these change ... and special thanks to the BH Team. Edited by: TomB on 03/07/2003 10:08:49 "Where is my hat?"
TomB	Posted - 2003.07.03 10:07:00 - [69] Serge: it's fixed, coming in this patch. "Where is my hat?"
Serge	Posted - 2003.07.03 10:32:00 - [70] Thanks for the reply! Now looking forward to some hopefully interesting experience with the patched issues ;) *********************************************** ... "we suddenly have a good 2 dozen Chicken Littles running about proclaiming tha
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.07.03 11:12:00 - [71] I can't wait to get home and see how much non AM/EMP ammo I can sell :) Just a bit gutted we recycled an assload of M ammo a couple of nights ago :/ And I'm glad to see that skills will play a bigger part in battle now, too. I'm also gonna keep an eye on the map, I got a feeling that the best loot drops tonight will be from overconfident players. (me included) .
Lithorus	Posted - 2003.07.03 11:14:00 - [72] I have to say I'm quite dissapointed with the ship changes. The lack of medium slots in our ships is not worth 5% decrease in ROF. And as someone said these changes will actually make us slower than before. One thing I would like to see was an added 5% decrease in reload time. That I think would make things more balanced. Either that or give us a ship with atleast 4 medium slots.
Lithorus	Posted - 2003.07.03 12:02:00 - [73] Edit: nvm Edited by: Lithorus on 03/07/2003 12:02:51
Smoke	Posted - 2003.07.03 14:45:00 - [74] F**K they screwed me over! I chose minmatar, because i wanted to be fast, a galaxtic trade runner of sorts.The names smoke! They screwed me over and my stabber's virtually useless. 20m/s speed bonus, thats like someone could ram me and give me that bonus! Im not gunna play anymore! i was gunna start exploring/or join the alliance and fight.But they messed it all up!Dammit i just got new agent, cruiser, skills guns, lif burners and there nothing now. later.. and like that.....GONE!
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.07.03 14:50:00 - [75] smoke, are you serious? You're gonna quit because your improved ship isn't improved enough? relax a bit, put yer feet up, have a nice cup of tea. also, I made someone go about 5km/s from a well aimed ramming run. :) .
Smoke	Posted - 2003.07.03 14:59:00 - [76] It just annoy's me. I wont quit, but just mightly fekked off. Is it me or are we paying for being beta testers! and like that.....GONE!
Kelewan	Posted - 2003.07.03 15:00:00 - [77] Drunk the master rammer lol ----------------------------------------------- "I am watching you through a camera" - Artie Ziff
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2003.07.03 18:22:00 - [78] uh did min ships LOSE a med slot?! was the speed bonus really 20 m/s?! Yeesh.. they said "significantly faster" in the patch notes. I was expecting around 50 "realistically." Argh. So... everyone else gets damage bonus and such, we get... firing rate. Hmm. "Minmatar cruisers and battleships have had their speed bonus removed, instead they will get much more base speed and now also ROF bonus (Rate of Fire) for projectile weapons per navigation skill level. This does not apply for Minmatar frigates." I assume he means SHIP COMMAND skill level not Navigation! He's right, i'm going to be lots slower. 20 m/s is not "much more base speed" and will in no way compensate for the 5% per level speed bonus i was getting before, will it. I had, say, in a stabber: 180 base Navigation skill bouses let's say L3, 15% now it's 207 Min Cruiser bonuses for ship special of speed also L3 another 15% now it's 238 without any modules. Post-patch: 200 base nav bonuses 15% for L3 230 ... and that's it. My base speed is slower. I say again, S L O W E R. Until the patch notes, noone knew for sure what acutal changes or bonus would be... doesn't at least one dev like minmatar ships and run the numbers on them? 8) I hope this is addressed asap. The base with a 50m/s would be 230 so clearly it'll be faster (premodule speed with nav-3 would be 264). Bonus of 30 would be nearly meaningless (the "significant increase" means that prepatch 238, post 241). A minimum of 40m/s boost to all min crusiers is necessary to actually improve stats over the loss of the speed ship special. I don't know how this was overlooked. So we're underpowered, underslotted, and slower. hides in station You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Juju Mojo	Posted - 2003.07.03 19:20:00 - [79] *UPDATE* I made my post anout Minmatar ship speeds last night before I went to bed. Today I logged on to the live server and these are the new speeds for Minmatar cruisers/battleships (numbers in parenthesis are the old maximum speeds based on having level 5 skill): Scythe - 195 m/sec (206 m/sec) Bellicose - 195 m/sec (187.5 m/sec) Stabber - 215 m/sec (225 m/sec) Rupture - 185 m/sec (187.5 m/sec) Typhoon - 140 m/sec (150 m/sec) Tempest - 130 m/sec (131 m/sec) So the Scythe, Stabber, and Typhoon took approximately a 10 m/sec loss, and the Bellicose got a 7.5 m/sec increase over what their _potential_ speeds would have been. (The Rupture and Tempest are pretty close to what they would have been anyway.) I didn't mean to get anyone up in arms with the information I posted previously, I just wanted to give TomB some feedback about his changes before they went live. I'm willing to give these newest values a try (although I am still a little saddened by the net loss of 10 m/sec on my Stabber. I chose it because of it's blazing speed for a cruiser, although it still is the fastest, it just isn't the fastest by quite such a big margin any more). At this point I think all us Minies are going to have to go do some feild testing and see how our ships perform with all the other changes to combat as well. Thanks TomB! Although I haven't had enough time to test but a fraction of all the things you guys have changed, so far I think you and your associates are doing a fantastic job. Keep up the good work.
Ilia Volyova	Posted - 2003.07.04 20:44:00 - [80] Well, but for Lvl5 in cruiser you would need around 40 days with good per and wil values.. I would rather take the lvl4 mods to compare the ships.
Ironbuck	Posted - 2003.07.07 15:31:00 - [81] OK i have been playing new patch since itd release (i fly a rupture) and use medium proj and laser turrets. I now find that my hvy beam laser is doing considerably more dam than my proj turret on average and it has a faster tracking speed and better range even with a mutilfreq crystal. My 650mm cannon has basically now become a weapon which rarely hits for more than 40dam :( but occasionaly does 3x times that amount?? Proj wepaons have become utter pants in close now, the 650mm hardly ever hits even bad NPC pirates under 10km now !! and i have many lvl 4 combat skills which add to its to hit/dam/tracking speed to. I hate to think how bad itd be if i wasnt using three proj mods and two track speed mods?? Please sort out the minmatar cruisers also they are so second rate it unbelievable. The rupture is arguably the best (though some prefer stabber) and it is bettered in ALL ways by the other three top lvl cruisers from the other races. Moa is better at ECMS and cpu by a lot. Maller has more turrets and hits. Gallente one (cant remember name) has similar hits and 3x the drone space. Only vague benefit it has is 10ms quicker (WOW) and has missile slots (where maller has none) which mightbe ok if missiles didnt suck the big one :)
Karif	Posted - 2003.07.07 18:44:00 - [82] Well, here's my observations: Projectiles fire too slow now. Perhaps toning down the damage multiplier, upping the ROF, and adjusting the ammo capacity would be the best way to make projectiles a bit more effective than they are now, without going oberboard. Hybrids seem to be about right, but my testing isn't complete. The short range blasters may need tuning. Lasers seem to track too fast and it is far to easy to switch between short/medium/long range lenses. Be a few days before I can give them a good grinding. =============================== Deception + Information + Skill
Andrey	Posted - 2003.07.08 09:55:00 - [83] Quote: Instead we will bring you some bigger pirates also to play with. I am interested if there any 'bigger' ships actually in game now? I could not find any ....
Serge	Posted - 2003.07.09 10:20:00 - [84] yah - well, projectiles over and out ... I used 650 ari and 150 scout and now I'm back at beam wepons ... no question, medium projectile wepons were killed! --> ammo issue,ROF,tracking ... I really dont see a point in using them any more! Pirate drop that nice laser guns that need very few cap and give good damage over greater range than these crappy ari! I mean c'mone, optimal range of 650 ari of 5000m with EM? an ammo thats supposed to take out shields? *********************************************** ... "we suddenly have a good 2 dozen Chicken Littles running about proclaiming tha
Will McBlack	Posted - 2003.07.10 06:51:00 - [85] Warp Scrambling Police.... I thought the scrambling range was 20km max, at least thats what my warp scramblers tell me and what I've experienced vs pirats. Howerver, Police Officers seem to happily scramble me at 30km! What I did: Testserver, took out an Incursus, searched the spawn place in Osmeden, a lot of noob ships in mid space there. I destroyed one, police shows up, ok thats normal. They warped in about 15km of me and start to scramble me... ok fine. I set a course at 180 degrees angle of the police fire up ABs and as I write this the nearest cop is 50km away (and the furtest away is 150+km), however, I am still warp scrambled. This seems like a bug to me :)
Anya Stark	Posted - 2003.07.10 18:13:00 - [86] "Lasers seem to track too fast and it is far to easy to switch between short/medium/long range lenses. Be a few days before I can give them a good grinding." Aw man, never say stuff like that in the offical forums, say it in Eve-i or something. "The Powers that Nerf" won't respond by restoring projectiles or improving hybrids, they'll just nerf the hell out of beams until nothing works. That was their response to carebear whining about 425 dual scouts right? I continue to believe that the solution to overpowered stuff(to keep us all happy) is to make other stuff stronger to compensate rather than crippling the good ones. The answer to the original Gyro 1s and stamped Heat sinks was to double our shields and put out the better extenders and hardeners available now. That would have been just as easy, and wouldn't have made the people who spend tons of time and/or Isk getting that stuff feel like doofuses. I spend a lot of Isk on my current loadout (various M projectiles, all scouts plus gyro 1s), after losing the sweet looted loadout I had before the patch to overconfidence in the face of 200K worth of constantly respawning Liquidators and Marauders. Like really, I spent at least 6-7 mil Isk just before the patch. Now I need to go out and spend that again on energy weapons and mods? Not like I can hunt for them if what is being said about the changes to loot tables is accurate (ie. no one if getting weapons, especially not decent ones). Besides, what's the point if they're just gonna nerf the good beams like 2 days after I get/buy them? Stark. Edited by: Anya Stark on 10/07/2003 18:16:04
Crimmer	Posted - 2003.07.12 21:00:00 - [87] I do have a question about the combat situation. Currently I have a Rifter Frigate and I equiped a M-12 Standard Missle Launcer with F.O.F. FireFly missles. I tried to fire one last night and I couldn't fire the missle until I was 5m away from my target. What's wrong? I thought I could be 20m away. Is there a skill I don't know about that affects my distance from my target to fire a missle? Because I keep getting the "Distance is not suitable for fire" message and I have to be literally 5m close to my target to fire.
Von Thoma	Posted - 2003.07.14 06:32:00 - [88] So it seems next ISSUE we have to cut this stupid beam lasers ... and I really mean it that way ! So please DEVS have a look at them and REDUCE them down to fit to the other weapons. HEY they even don't have to use ammuniation ... so they should have a setback, not too much, but of course one. All others have to pay and use cargo bay for their weapons. So they could even use that cargo bay for heavy missles (cruise or torpedo) ... And I mean IT seems Projectil and Hybrid is now in a range they should be, so only small adjustment to them. I am using different sorts of Hybrid AND HAVE ALL SKILLS around 4, even some 5 ... and I am doing between 60-90 Dam with best Hybrid Weapon at optimum Range ... before patch it was 100-150 BUT IT IS OKAY, a lot better. I see that the responsible guy from CCP is working on it and that's good ... I am looking forward that he would continue that way and send all the children to hell ... who want their GOD Weapon to do 600 Damage again, get lost and play your 3D shooter again. Good work last patch, it is the right way ... go on TomB and your Team. THX for making the game more enjoyable. Edited by: Von Thoma on 14/07/2003 06:34:16
Redundancy	Posted - 2003.07.15 16:56:00 - [89] Been around for a while, and the changes have been on the live server for a while too. Time to unsticky. Redundancy

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