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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 00:36:00 -
[1]
Much like the neural remap we have once a year, I would like to be able to pool all my current skills, and redistribute them one a year as well.
Often you set out on a career path only to find it's not really what you wanted or thought it would be.
Then you need to re-train for another path. Granted, it's a plus for CCP becuase it guarantees that you will be at the game much longer while your new skills train up, but it's pretty bad for the player as he waits a month or two or three to get those new skills up to speed.
Annual redistribution may lessen the pain and make the game more enjoyable.
Just a thought.
Discuss.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 00:41:00 -
[2]
Removes the point of having attributes. Vastly diminishes the point of having skills. Removes choice and consequences. Removes variety. Encourages FOTM. Kills the character market. Vastly favours old characters over new ones.
Bad idea all around. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Sofa Raddis
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Posted - 2011.06.11 00:47:00 -
[3]
I'd have to strongly disagree I'm afraid, for reasons already mentioned.
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Hello Pretty
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Posted - 2011.06.11 00:49:00 -
[4]
No we should just be able to buy our skill points with rl money. Save a whole bunch of time.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.11 00:50:00 -
[5]
No, this is a non-starter. "I have a degree which I worked long and hard for. You know I think there may be better opportunity for me with a different degree and skill set. I'm going to swap it tomorrow." Negative, the choices you make in this game have consequences.. and you can't just change your skill 'tree' quickly to whatever else you like. (wow player).
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2011.06.11 00:51:00 -
[6]
This would make sense if there was a skill limit. like you could only ever get 40 mil sp.
or if you could actually train every skill in the game to max.
No one has maxed out skills, thus a remap is a terrible idea.
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Aoki Ayumi
University of Caille
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Posted - 2011.06.11 01:03:00 -
[7]
No
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.06.11 01:08:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 11/06/2011 01:09:52
Originally by: MotherMoon This would make sense if there was a skill limit. like you could only ever get 40 mil sp.
or if you could actually train every skill in the game to max.
No one has maxed out skills, thus a remap is a terrible idea.
Even then it would be questionable and remove consequences and specialists..
@OP: no chance in hell
Also, basic skills in electronics, engineering, mechanic, navigation, gunnery, missiles, drones will most of the time not be wasted. If you think you need to do something different than before - do it, that's all the freedom you can ask for right there.
Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody! |
Alotta Baggage
Amarr Coarition of Poorry Stereotyped Asian Peopre
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Posted - 2011.06.11 01:11:00 -
[9]
Skirr point rerocating wourd make asian stereotyping arts useress and unnecessary
Originally by: Valkoinen Heteromies
I for one would love to be able to walk on stations and fly spaceships in the body of a little cute catgirl!
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.06.11 01:13:00 -
[10]
Absolutely not.
You deserve to be biomassed for starting an another awful thread for this awful idea. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
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Kinta Huron
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.06.11 02:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tippia Removes the point of having attributes. Vastly diminishes the point of having skills. Removes choice and consequences. Removes variety. Encourages FOTM. Kills the character market. Vastly favours old characters over new ones.
Bad idea all around.
- No it doesn't - Nope - Character Bazaar, neural remaps and caracter re-costomization etc.. already exists so this reason is instant fail. - It promotes variety if anything - So what - New Eve account owners will still buy older characters off Bazaar and CCP could make it a micro-transaction so no money loss to them. - So what Respec could add a more enlivening experience to Eve for an older player while also creating more lastingness and variety, with the freedom to experiment with different career paths as well.. this would be dam fun period! So suck it! it's coming whether you want it or not with all the up coming micro-transactions, that's pretty much guaranteed.
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Masamune Dekoro
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:16:00 -
[12]
What if it wasn't an entire reallocation, but an optional amount up to 5% of your total SP; that way people could clear out some of those skills they never really applied and put it to better use (coughminingcough), without being over the top and unbalanced.
Wouldn't really affect this 5 mil pilot though
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:18:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 11/06/2011 03:19:50 NEVAH!!
*Edit: Except Mining 1, this character was created back when it gave you mining 1 right off the bat. Also could train T2 small turrets right away
Originally by: Xenuria
I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.
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Ford Mersombre
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:23:00 -
[14]
Originally by: MotherMoon This would make sense if there was a skill limit. like you could only ever get 40 mil sp.
or if you could actually train every skill in the game to max.
No one has maxed out skills, thus a remap is a terrible idea.
QFT
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Majuan Shuo
Sons Of 0din
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:24:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kinta Huron
Originally by: Tippia Removes the point of having attributes. Vastly diminishes the point of having skills. Removes choice and consequences. Removes variety. Encourages FOTM. Kills the character market. Vastly favours old characters over new ones.
Bad idea all around.
- No it doesn't - Nope - Character Bazaar, neural remaps and caracter re-costomization etc.. already exists so this reason is instant fail. - It promotes variety if anything - So what - New Eve account owners will still buy older characters off Bazaar and CCP could make it a micro-transaction so no money loss to them. - So what Respec could add a more enlivening experience to Eve for an older player while also creating more lastingness and variety, with the freedom to experiment with different career paths as well.. this would be dam fun period! So suck it! it's coming whether you want it or not with all the up coming micro-transactions, that's pretty much guaranteed.
So suck it?
You just admitted it encourages FOTM (thats game speak for "everyone skills the most powerful build of that month")
This adds variety...how?
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Doc Fury
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:30:00 -
[16]
Really OP? ...Really??
This game is getting too easy as it is.
If this game gets dumbed-down much further, the next thing we'll see is a racial Supercap and single unit of tritanium issued by the Pend Insurance Co. for any ship-loss.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.' |
Kinta Huron
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:38:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Majuan Shuo
Originally by: Kinta Huron
Originally by: Tippia Removes the point of having attributes. Vastly diminishes the point of having skills. Removes choice and consequences. Removes variety. Encourages FOTM. Kills the character market. Vastly favours old characters over new ones.
Bad idea all around.
- No it doesn't - Nope - Character Bazaar, neural remaps and caracter re-costomization etc.. already exists so this reason is instant fail. - It promotes variety if anything - So what - New Eve account owners will still buy older characters off Bazaar and CCP could make it a micro-transaction so no money loss to them. - So what Respec could add a more enlivening experience to Eve for an older player while also creating more lastingness and variety, with the freedom to experiment with different career paths as well.. this would be dam fun period! So suck it! it's coming whether you want it or not with all the up coming micro-transactions, that's pretty much guaranteed.
So suck it?
You just admitted it encourages FOTM (thats game speak for "everyone skills the most powerful build of that month")
This adds variety...how?
So what! Don't like my FOTM do your own *shrugs shoulders* this way is much more reasonable than coughing up a few hundred dollars worth of plex rmt for a dam Bazaar character.
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:39:00 -
[18]
I really dont see it much different than doing your neural remap. If done annualy, that is a long time to be able to do it again.
Besides, it doesnt have to be ALL skill points...maybe a small percentage to allow some skill flexibility once a year.
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Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:39:00 -
[19]
Dirk opposes anyone who supports this idea not only IG but also their IRL subscriber. Right in the face. With ********* ***** ********
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Yanshee
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:43:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch I really dont see it much different than doing your neural remap.
Really?
1. Alter the rate at which skills X, Y, Z would train. 2. Immediately train/untrain skills.
That's quite a big difference. Neural remap influences future decisions. Skill remap remakes past decisions.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kinta Huron - No it doesn't
Attributes are there to moderate the pace at which you train different skills in different categories. With SP remaps, that moderation no longer exists: remap for one particular attribute combo, train only skills with that combo at max speed, at the end of the year, redistribute those SP to skills that have nothing to do with your attributes.
Quote: - Nope
Skills are there to differentiation what characters can and cannot do, and to make you sacrifice certain areas. Being able to remap SP means that this differentiation is largely gone ù there will be a "best build" and everyone will go for that one.
Quote: - Character Bazaar, neural remaps and caracter re-costomization etc.. already exists so this reason is instant fail.
No they does not ù in fact, it just reinforces it. Your choices, and the consequences of those choices, decide what you are able to do and (more importantly), what you relinquish. The character bazaar lets you live with someone else's choices and consequences. Neural remaps doesn't change what skills you have, only how quickly you train the ones you will have. And "caracter re-costomization etc" (sic) does not even exist.
Quote: It promotes variety if anything
How so? Everyone can (and will) gravitate towards "best builds", making everyone more alike.
Quote: - So what
It's a bad thing ù it further kills the variety of gameplay and content you see.
Quote: - New Eve account owners will still buy older characters off Bazaar and CCP could make it a micro-transaction so no money loss to them.
It removes a source of income for players, since there would no longer be any demand for special-build characters when everyone can have them at a whim.
Quote: - So what
It completely goes against one of the fundamental virtues of the game.
Quote: Respec could add a more enlivening experience to Eve for an older player while also creating more lastingness and variety, with the freedom to experiment with different career paths as well.
This already exists. No need to ruin the game to add it.
Quote: it's coming whether you want it or not
Lolno, for the reasons enumerated above.
Quote: Don't like my FOTM do your own
FOTM means something is imbalanced ù it's a flaw in the game. If "do your own" is the only response, then it means that the FOTM needs to be changed promptly to fix this design flaw.
Quote: this way is much more reasonable than coughing up a few hundred dollars worth of plex rmt for a dam Bazaar character.
àaside from the fact that it completely goes against everything that makes EVE EVE ù breaking the game because you cannot plan ahead is not reasonable. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:50:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Tippia on 11/06/2011 03:53:42
Originally by: Atticus Fynch I really dont see it much different than doing your neural remap.
Under your scheme: everyone always train everything at 2700 SP/h. No planning is involved. No important choices are required. In essence, it alters the past (and if interpreted freely, it also makes you able to insta-adapt to new situations).
With attribute remaps: some people train some skills at up to 2700 SP/h, and only if they plan ahead; if they stick with limited subset of skills; if they don't get distracted; if they don't find an unexpected need for something different; and if there are enough skills to train for an extended period of time. At best, it alters your potential near-future.
What you're asking for is deeply destructive to some of the fundamental designs of the game. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:50:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 11/06/2011 03:54:33
Everyone has skills they really have no use for. Often done when they first started EVE, trying to figure out what to do and what they would enjoy.
After a year or two everyone falls into their niche and usually sticks with it. All those "obsolete" skills would come in well elswhere.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 03:55:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch Everyone has skills they really have no use for. Often done when they first started EVE, trying to figure out what to do and what they would enjoy.
àand those are part of the character and of the history of the game. They make you unique and different ù not just another boring carbon copy clone of Pilot Template 1A. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Ioci
Gallente Space Mermaids
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Posted - 2011.06.11 04:33:00 -
[25]
It doesn't make much difference to me one way or the other. I still haven't used my remaps.
SP don't have the same value any more. I can't pinch another EFT point out od anything I can fly. Those ships are still as vulnerable as they were when I had 10 mill SP. It just takes longer for them to die now. |
Kinta Huron
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.06.11 04:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Atticus Fynch Everyone has skills they really have no use for. Often done when they first started EVE, trying to figure out what to do and what they would enjoy.
àand those are part of the character and of the history of the game. They make you unique and different ù not just another boring carbon copy clone of Pilot Template 1A.
Real lame.
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EnslaverOfMinmatar
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.11 04:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Hello Pretty No we should just be able to buy our skill points with rl money. Save a whole bunch of time.
Your face is ****ing hilarious! uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ |
Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.11 04:48:00 -
[28]
People love to jump on a bandwagon!
No, not supporting this proposal (it's way over the top, really). It's true, though, that EVE's skillpoints system doesn't scale well over time. Here's how full scalability works:
"For every X years of EVE in the past, another X years of it must be guaranteed for the future."
In EVE's first year, it was easy to predict it would exist yet another year. But what about, say, 15 years? Can you then still say, with decent certainty, it will have yet another 15 years left? The crux being: over time, the time left to try and do the same as other have done up til this point will decrease. Until EVE's projected lifetime-left will be only a few years.
So, while I do not support this proposal, it might be a good idea for CCP to start looking into modest ways to allow training to speed up a bit (for everyone); like maybe 2x neural remaps a year or so. --
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Sofa Raddis
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Posted - 2011.06.11 05:15:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 11/06/2011 03:54:33
Everyone has skills they really have no use for. Often done when they first started EVE, trying to figure out what to do and what they would enjoy.
After a year or two everyone falls into their niche and usually sticks with it. All those "obsolete" skills would come in well elswhere.
Yes, I trained for mining barges right off the bat, and I'll probably never mine more then those few inital hours.
But that was my fault. And my risk to take in order to test a part of eve.
The fact that they are "obsolete" is irrelevant, there isn't a skill point cap. What you are proposing would undo a very core principle of eve.
It's a horrible idea, that most eve players probably have had just to dismiss it seconds later when frustration regarding poor choices simmers down. Just get over it and keep your eye on the ball, and have fun!
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Orlacc
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Posted - 2011.06.11 05:45:00 -
[30]
Cool! Everyone with the same skills!
Oh and "lastingness" is not a word.
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San Severina
Minmatar Autocannons Anonymous
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Posted - 2011.06.11 06:28:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Aoki Ayumi No
NO
play some other game, this is EvE, your choices matter!
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.06.11 06:30:00 -
[32]
Originally by: San Severina
Originally by: Aoki Ayumi No
NO
play some other game, this is EvE, your choices matter!
Well not really, as you can train up for whatever you want whenever you want \/
Originally by: Xenuria
I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.
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Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.11 06:32:00 -
[33]
GUYS GUYS GUYS
It's this thread again!!
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JC Anderson
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.06.11 07:00:00 -
[34]
Hell no.
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Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
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Posted - 2011.06.11 08:26:00 -
[35]
Annually allowing 1 (one) skill to be refunded. This would work better and wouldn't unbalance anything (for those that trained mining to V .
---
Sentinum Research Store |
Anne Arqui
Minmatar Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.11 08:30:00 -
[36]
Only once a year? I wouldn't mind!
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.06.11 09:25:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Grimpak on 11/06/2011 09:27:06
Originally by: Riley Moore
Annually allowing 1 (one) skill to be refunded. This would work better and wouldn't unbalance anything (for those that trained mining to V .
- train rank14 skill with optimal atributes - 1 year later, remap SP from said skill to an entire skilltree
TL,DR
attribute remapping is bleh, but much less bleh than skill remapping.
I had some 1mil SP in industry for years and I never complained. Were they useless? yes, but there is not SP limit so why dwell in it? ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Anne Arqui
Minmatar Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.11 09:34:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Grimpak - train rank14 skill with optimal atributes - 1 year later, remap SP from said skill to an entire skilltree
TL,DR
attribute remapping is bleh, but much less bleh than skill remapping.
Make it you get specific int/mem SP so you can't abuse the system .. ?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.06.11 09:40:00 -
[39]
Instant gratification monkies have no place in eve and should be shot on sight.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.06.11 09:48:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Anne Arqui
Originally by: Grimpak - train rank14 skill with optimal atributes - 1 year later, remap SP from said skill to an entire skilltree
TL,DR
attribute remapping is bleh, but much less bleh than skill remapping.
Make it you get specific int/mem SP so you can't abuse the system .. ?
still not good enough.
it removes the consequence of your choices. a core principle of EVE. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
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Anne Arqui
Minmatar Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.11 10:04:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Anne Arqui on 11/06/2011 10:04:33
Originally by: Grimpak still not good enough.
it removes the consequence of your choices. a core principle of EVE.
The consequence, much like with remaps, is that you're stuck with it for a year.
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Sealiah
Minmatar Coffee Lovers Brewing Club ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2011.06.11 10:07:00 -
[42]
Please move to F&I for propper trolling ^^ Words cannot describe how much this troll succeed in getting fed.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.06.11 10:11:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Anne Arqui Edited by: Anne Arqui on 11/06/2011 10:04:33
Originally by: Grimpak still not good enough.
it removes the consequence of your choices. a core principle of EVE.
The consequence, much like with remaps, is that you're stuck with it for a year.
Thats not a consequence and only makes getting the FOTM easier.
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Anne Arqui
Minmatar Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.11 10:13:00 -
[44]
Originally by: baltec1 Thats not a consequence and only makes getting the FOTM easier.
At least it's FOTY then ;)
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Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.11 10:17:00 -
[45]
ITT the OP cannot stand the thought of his actions having consequences later... Sad person indeed...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.06.11 10:51:00 -
[46]
Or maybe we could just give everyone all the skills and make it simple.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 11:01:00 -
[47]
The OP's suggestion suffers from not going far enough. We should get an SP remap every day. That way, as soon as I have enough SP, I can be "all level 5" in whatever ship I happen to fancy flying that day. As a happy side effect, it will be much easier for me to maintain my advantage over other players with fewer SP. I would also be able to start training alts sooner - once I have 30-40M SP or so on a character, there'll be no point training any further. By the time I've been playing for a few years, I'll be able to log into any one of 3 max-level (because SP really will equal levels) characters!
Yes, the OP's suggestion would be a fabulous power boost for high-SP veterans. Let's just implement it properly if we're going to. No messing about with half-measures!
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 11:13:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Ghoest Or maybe we could just give everyone all the skills and make it simple.
And what if that happend?
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Serptimis
Amarr Coffee Lovers Brewing Club ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2011.06.11 12:03:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Ghoest Or maybe we could just give everyone all the skills and make it simple.
And what if that happend?
The end credits would start rolling?
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.06.11 12:23:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Grimpak on 11/06/2011 12:25:17
Originally by: Malcanis The OP's suggestion suffers from not going far enough. We should get an SP remap every day. That way, as soon as I have enough SP, I can be "all level 5" in whatever ship I happen to fancy flying that day. As a happy side effect, it will be much easier for me to maintain my advantage over other players with fewer SP. I would also be able to start training alts sooner - once I have 30-40M SP or so on a character, there'll be no point training any further. By the time I've been playing for a few years, I'll be able to log into any one of 3 max-level (because SP really will equal levels) characters!
Yes, the OP's suggestion would be a fabulous power boost for high-SP veterans. Let's just implement it properly if we're going to. No messing about with half-measures!
and this is why it sucks. and this is me, a so-called "veteran", saying it.
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Ghoest Or maybe we could just give everyone all the skills and make it simple.
And what if that happend?
---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
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Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 12:35:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tippia Removes the point of having attributes. Vastly diminishes the point of having skills. Removes choice and consequences. Removes variety. Encourages FOTM. Kills the character market. Vastly favours old characters over new ones.
Bad idea all around.
Although I don't always see eye-to-eye with Tippia, I do however agree with Tippia on this.
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Whim Aqayn
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Posted - 2011.06.11 12:36:00 -
[52]
I LOL @ U CAREBEAR OP
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 12:37:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Serptimis
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Ghoest Or maybe we could just give everyone all the skills and make it simple.
And what if that happend?
The end credits would start rolling?
So getting SP is the only goal of the game? Really? If not, what's the answer then?
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Takseen
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Posted - 2011.06.11 14:58:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Takseen on 11/06/2011 14:59:16 Something like this on a *very* limited scale could be useful for a couple reasons.
-dropping skills that are actually detrimental in some situations. Like Tactical Shield Manipulation and the skill that increases the cycle time of Afterburners. -dropping skills that were only taken to meet a prerequisite that was later lowered or removed. -it'd be a way for players who missed the boat on the Social and Learning skills removal to build up a small SP pool.
It would have to heavy restrictions for it to work. Something like -only 1-5% of your SP total can be removed per year -you only get 5-20% of the points back, the rest are Gone Forever
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Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.11 15:30:00 -
[55]
I'd suggest that you can remap SP's at will, and pay ISK per skill point to do so...
The cost per skill point should be: X squared ...where X is the total number of skill points previously remapped.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 16:38:00 -
[56]
Originally by: baltec1 Instant gratification monkies have no place in eve and should be shot on sight.
Once a year is instant gratification?
wow
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Gwenywell Shumuku
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Posted - 2011.06.11 16:57:00 -
[57]
Look, you are going at this at the wrong angle.
Make a post in F&E, or write a nice petition, tell CCP what you are willing to pay for it (50bucks?)...wait 1-2 years, and its in (in form of a nice MT-item in incarna). They already played around with the "remap" idea (remap for plex = $), so its not that far off an idea to at least redistribute some of the skillpoints.
But making a thread here? You should have known better
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 17:07:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku Look, you are going at this at the wrong angle.
Make a post in F&E, or write a nice petition, tell CCP what you are willing to pay for it (50bucks?)...wait 1-2 years, and its in (in form of a nice MT-item in incarna). They already played around with the "remap" idea (remap for plex = $), so its not that far off an idea to at least redistribute some of the skillpoints.
But making a thread here? You should have known better
This topic is for discussion. I want to hear the pros and cons. It's not an "official" idea for CCP to consider so I am not presenting it as such. However, I know CCP reads this section of the forum the most...so the idea may bounce through a few "official" heads. One never knows.
If I post this in any other section, it will just die for lack of comments, and what I am looking for is feedback.
People, not everything in the forums has to be so serious. So lighten up FFS.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 17:27:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 17:26:59
Well I'll just keep telling people not to train a single mining skill as they'll most probably regret it the rest of their EVE lives .. such a waste!
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Kinta Huron
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.06.11 17:30:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku Look, you are going at this at the wrong angle.
Make a post in F&E, or write a nice petition, tell CCP what you are willing to pay for it (50bucks?)...wait 1-2 years, and its in (in form of a nice MT-item in incarna). They already played around with the "remap" idea (remap for plex = $), so its not that far off an idea to at least redistribute some of the skillpoints.
But making a thread here? You should have known better
This topic is for discussion. I want to hear the pros and cons. It's not an "official" idea for CCP to consider so I am not presenting it as such. However, I know CCP reads this section of the forum the most...so the idea may bounce through a few "official" heads. One never knows.
If I post this in any other section, it will just die for lack of comments, and what I am looking for is feedback.
People, not everything in the forums has to be so serious. So lighten up FFS.
Just ignore them, when mt comes this will be high on the list.. a few thousand threads on this same subject proves that a lot of people do want to see this happen, so it will come in time.
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Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:08:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Originally by: baltec1 Instant gratification monkies have no place in eve and should be shot on sight.
Once a year is instant gratification?
wow
It's not about instant gratification.
It's more to do with character building and having responsibility for the way you develop a character. You make it so that you can alter all you know which effects what you can do on a regular basis and you defeat the point of learning anything. You might as well do away with having to learn anything and just start with everything if you go down that road. If they were to do that at anytime in the future then that's the time I'd play something else.
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Kasriel
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:13:00 -
[62]
first off? No just no if it's a troll good job
second nobody seems to have pointed this out but here's a massive flaw for you you "redistribute" your skillpoints right? so what happens to all those shiny expensive skillbooks you've plugged into your head that you no longer have the requirements for hit remap?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:24:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch This topic is for discussion. I want to hear the pros and cons.
There are no pros ù only things that look like they might be beneficial until you think about it for more than one second and realise they are horribly destructive in every way imaginable. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:24:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 11/06/2011 18:24:32
Originally by: Kasriel first off? No just no if it's a troll good job
second nobody seems to have pointed this out but here's a massive flaw for you you "redistribute" your skillpoints right? so what happens to all those shiny expensive skillbooks you've plugged into your head that you no longer have the requirements for hit remap?
That is easily coded.
Redistribution is not a free-for-all. Limitations would have to be in place so that you could not add skill points to skills you do not yet qualify for as well as removing skill points to areas that would disqualify you for those or other skills...unless you no longer wish to qualify for them.
And yes, you would still need the skill book to even add points to a new skill.
That is why it's not as big a "cheat" as some of you are saying it to be. It can get quite involved.
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Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:29:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 11/06/2011 18:24:32
Originally by: Kasriel first off? No just no if it's a troll good job
second nobody seems to have pointed this out but here's a massive flaw for you you "redistribute" your skillpoints right? so what happens to all those shiny expensive skillbooks you've plugged into your head that you no longer have the requirements for hit remap?
That is easily coded.
Redistribution is not a free-for-all. Limitations would have to be in place so that you could not add skill points to skills you do not yet qualify for as well as removing skill points to areas that would disqualify you for those or other skills...unless you no longer wish to qualify for them.
And yes, you would still need the skill book to even add points to a new skill.
That is why it's not as big a "cheat" as some of you are saying it to be. It can get quite involved.
I would not say it's a cheat as such, but it would make the whole character development and learning skill tree fairly pointless.
Instead of trying to correct your mistakes by cheapening the game, why don't you just take responsibility for your mistakes.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:32:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 17:26:59
Well I'll just keep telling people not to train a single mining skill as they'll most probably regret it the rest of their EVE lives .. such a waste!
Please continue doing this.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:39:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 11/06/2011 18:39:26
Originally by: Katra Novac
Instead of trying to correct your mistakes by cheapening the game, why don't you just take responsibility for your mistakes.
The interesting thing about EVE is that you can correct for "mistakes" with real-world money.
Made some bad investmentss? Lost a ship in low-sec? No problem...just dig into your real-world wallet and buy some plex to make up for your loss.
I can interpret THAT as not taking reponsibility for your mistakes and even as "cheapening" the game. I can also call it an "exploit" as it gives players with larger expendable incomes an advantage over someone not so afluent. Yet it's considered normal game play.
It's all relative and a matter of perception. Being held to skills I no longer use or studied while trying to find my place in EVE years ago can be looked at the same way IMO.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:45:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch The interesting thing about EVE is that you can correct for "mistakes" with real-world money.
No, the interesting thing is that you have to pay for your mistakes. Doing it with real money just makes that mistake (and the payment) larger.
It's not about your idea being a "cheat" or not, it's about it fundamentally altering ù to the point of completely removing ù a core design element of the game. You might as well suggest removing highsec And that's beyond the nitty-gritty details of what your suggestion is removing (eg. making attributes completely irrelevant). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:45:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 18:46:11
Originally by: Atticus Fynch It's all relative and a matter of perception. Being held to skills I no longer use or studied while trying to find my place in EVE years ago can be looked at the same way IMO.
Give it up Atticus, you know that the average EVE player/forum poster has the autistic conservative's tendency to hold on whatever he knows, whether it's good, reasonable, logical or not.
You KNOW you're really upsetting them!
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:47:00 -
[70]
Well then, perhaps instead of it being an annual event, make it an event you can do say, every 20 - 25 million skill points.
Once you hit 25 million SP, you get one skillpoint re-adjustment.
Fair?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:49:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch Well then, perhaps instead of it being an annual event, make it an event you can do say, every 20 - 25 million skill points.
Once you hit 25 million SP, you get one skillpoint re-adjustment.
Fair?
No, because it still ruins the game in exactly the same way. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:53:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Tippia it still ruins the game in exactly the same way.
Your game perhaps .. not my game.
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:55:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 18:46:11
Originally by: Atticus Fynch It's all relative and a matter of perception. Being held to skills I no longer use or studied while trying to find my place in EVE years ago can be looked at the same way IMO.
Give it up Atticus, you know that the average EVE player/forum poster has the autistic conservative's tendency to hold on whatever he knows, whether it's good, reasonable, logical or not.
You KNOW you're really upsetting them!
duly noted
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:58:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Tippia it still ruins the game in exactly the same way.
Your game perhaps .. not my game.
Ok, so how about this deal: we effectively remove the skill system and the choices that come with it, and screw over new players something fierce, and in exchange, we effectively remove highsec and the choices that come with it, and screw over new players even moreà
Sounds fair? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:01:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 19:01:55
Originally by: Tippia Ok, so how about this deal: we effectively remove the skill system and the choices that come with it,
I couldn't care less. I always thought that artificial restrictive things like xp or SP are a bit silly and that player skill, tactics and organisation should be far more important.
Quote: and screw over new players something fierce, and in exchange, we effectively remove highsec and the choices that come with it, and screw over new players even moreà
I don't see any reason for this. We're only discussing a one time skill remap. No need to get upset.
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Sofa Raddis
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:06:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Sofa Raddis on 11/06/2011 19:06:31
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Instead of trying to correct your mistakes by cheapening the game, why don't you just take responsibility for your mistakes.
The interesting thing about EVE is that you can correct for "mistakes" with real-world money.
Yes it's relative and matter of perception.
Just think about how this is done, a player buys plex for real world currency and sells it on the ingame market to another player for isk (can now play Eve despite a bad economy). It's not a case of direct real currency for ingame currency, like in other mmos, where it's usually done by a third party, someone gets the playtime, and said profit goes to the actual developers.
I've been on just the same thought as you, but it's not entirely fair reasoning. I think it's a good solution to this issue which every mmo face.
Now, back to the topic, while appealing to the casual players (lowest common denmoninator) by lessening the rules of the game as you go can be a good business model, it makes for horrible gameplay, having goals reset by eventually getting them for less effort is the reason I don't play warcraft anymore.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:06:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling I couldn't care less. I always thought that atrificial restrictive things like xp or SP are a bit silly and that player skill and orgaisation should be far more important.
It's called balance. There's a good reason for it ù it creates roles and variety. It's the thing that makes player skill and (especially) organisation relevant.
Quote: I don't see any reason for this. We're only discussing a one time skill remap. No need to get upset.
You're discussing a fundamental redefinition of a core design element ù one dealing with planning, choice and consequences. If you're going to remove that, we should remove them all: in particular, remove the area of EVE where consequences are the most stringently enforced ù highsec. That also removes the choice of where to go and what kind of gameplay to engage in. And, just like the SP remap idea, it completely screws over new players in favour of older ones.
It is the exact same kind of change, so if there is any need for one, there's the exact same need for the other. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:08:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 11/06/2011 18:39:26
Originally by: Katra Novac
Instead of trying to correct your mistakes by cheapening the game, why don't you just take responsibility for your mistakes.
The interesting thing about EVE is that you can correct for "mistakes" with real-world money.
Made some bad investmentss? Lost a ship in low-sec? No problem...just dig into your real-world wallet and buy some plex to make up for your loss.
I can interpret THAT as not taking reponsibility for your mistakes and even as "cheapening" the game. I can also call it an "exploit" as it gives players with larger expendable incomes an advantage over someone not so afluent. Yet it's considered normal game play.
It's all relative and a matter of perception. Being held to skills I no longer use or studied while trying to find my place in EVE years ago can be looked at the same way IMO.
Buying PLEX if they are new to the game, is likely to cheapen their experience of Eve at the beginning, as the amount they can make by selling a PLEX would be a lot more that what they can make to start with by mining or mission running. However, PLEX is useful for those that have limited time to play, so although they are not ideal they do have a use. Those that have plenty of time should not need to buy PLEX with RL currency.
Would be great in RL if you could unlearn all the things you no longer require and swap what was learnt for new subjects without investing any more time in learning.
Difference is what you propose cheapens the game in general, where as PLEX mainly cheapens the game for those that buy it and that's really only the experience of those that are new to the game.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:09:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 19:09:50
Originally by: Tippia You're discussing a fundamental redefinition of a core design element ù one dealing with planning, choice and consequences. If you're going to remove that, we should remove them all: in particular, remove the area of EVE where consequences are the most stringently enforced ù highsec.
That's nonsense, they also removed learning skills which also offered a choice with consequences. Removing one doesn't mean it all falls apart, apparently. Or I must have missed something ..
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:13:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling That's nonsense, they also removed learning skills which also offered a choice with consequences.
àexcept that it had been proven at that point that there was no choice and that the consequences for the "wrong" choice was completely lopsided compared to the alternative. It was a Hobson's choice, not an actual choice.
Quote: Removing one doesn't mean it all falls apart, apparently. Or I must have missed something ..
We're not talking about removing one choice here ù we're talking about removing a whole set of actually relevant choices for no good reason whatsoever. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:19:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Jennifer Starling That's nonsense, they also removed learning skills which also offered a choice with consequences.
àexcept that it had been proven at that point that there was no choice and that the consequences for the "wrong" choice was completely lopsided compared to the alternative. It was a Hobson's choice, not an actual choice.
I agree it was a very good idea to remove them.
Quote:
Quote: Removing one doesn't mean it all falls apart, apparently. Or I must have missed something ..
We're not talking about removing one choice here ù we're talking about removing a whole set of actually relevant choices for no good reason whatsoever.
I don't think giving people a skill remap as the OP proposed and definitely not a one-time redistribution will remove any relevant choice and "ruin the game". You still have to face the consequences for a year (or forver if it's one-time).
Furthermore I think it's a very nice idea to let people try things out first without really knowing what they're doing and not having to pay for it the rest of their EVE lives. Because it's not even a real choice because when you start playing you don't really know what you're choosing, it's opening a door you don't really know what's behind it. I think it shouldn't have to be penalized.
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Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:22:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Katra Novac on 11/06/2011 19:22:59
Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 19:09:50
Originally by: Tippia You're discussing a fundamental redefinition of a core design element ù one dealing with planning, choice and consequences. If you're going to remove that, we should remove them all: in particular, remove the area of EVE where consequences are the most stringently enforced ù highsec.
That's nonsense, they also removed learning skills which also offered a choice with consequences. Removing one doesn't mean it all falls apart, apparently. Or I must have missed something ..
Lol, not the learning skill debate again.
Learning skills offered no real choice as they were required to be learnt for the most part at the beginning. Which is why they were removed as they where not performing as intended.
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Sir Oliver Midwestshire
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:28:00 -
[83]
I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
...Oh and I'm the guy who founded the city between Eastshire and Westshire. Nobody visits it though. |
Kinta Huron
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:40:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
You know that you can buy a character from the Bazaar right?
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:41:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Kinta Huron
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
You know that you can buy a character from the Bazaar right?
Shhh don't tell him! :x
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Sir Oliver Midwestshire
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:45:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Kinta Huron
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
You know that you can buy a character from the Bazaar right?
Yes of course, but if this is implemented nobody will buy characters. Why spend ISK on another character when you can just swap all your skills?
...Oh and I'm the guy who founded the city between Eastshire and Westshire. Nobody visits it though. |
Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:46:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Kinta Huron
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
You know that you can buy a character from the Bazaar right?
That's true, but if you buy a character there it is very unlikely to be the exact setup (skill wise) to what you want. Plus if you buy your character, it's never truly yours in the sense you have not put the time into it and therefore can't really take the credit for it.
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Joey Moonbeam
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:53:00 -
[88]
What if once every year you could remap your last 30 days of skill points?
This would allow a re-do if you mess up badly but wouldn't allow for a complete makeover.
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Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:54:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire
Originally by: Kinta Huron
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
You know that you can buy a character from the Bazaar right?
Yes of course, but if this is implemented nobody will buy characters. Why spend ISK on another character when you can just swap all your skills?
I know some that originally invested a lot into industry skills and no longer use them. So they would have a lot to gain with such a change, of course they don't think of the game in general, they just think about their own situation. They chose to take that route and the should accept that.
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Sir Oliver Midwestshire
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:56:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Joey Moonbeam What if once every year you could remap your last 30 days of skill points?
This would allow a re-do if you mess up badly but wouldn't allow for a complete makeover.
That's a decent compromise, and It won't screw anything over significantly. This fits the original intention of the idea, to swap out skills in case you messed up.
...Oh and I'm the guy who founded the city between Eastshire and Westshire. Nobody visits it though. |
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Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:58:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Joey Moonbeam What if once every year you could remap your last 30 days of skill points?
This would allow a re-do if you mess up badly but wouldn't allow for a complete makeover.
There should be no remap of SP, they made their choice and they should stick with it. They should plan more carefully, it's their responsibility to do so, not add a game mechanic that allows them to be more careless.
You can't mess up as such, you can just waste time by training skills you don't need.
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Joey Moonbeam
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Posted - 2011.06.11 20:04:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Katra Novac You can't mess up as such, you can just waste time by training skills you don't need.
The wasting of time would be the mess up. I believe that is the whole point of this idea.
How about a once per character remapping of an arbitrary amount of SP?
This would be more harsh than once per year remap, but also help rookies correct early mistakes. I already realize this would elevate the value of older characters who have preserved this remap, so maybe it could expire after 10 mil SP.
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Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 20:14:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Joey Moonbeam
Originally by: Katra Novac You can't mess up as such, you can just waste time by training skills you don't need.
The wasting of time would be the mess up. I believe that is the whole point of this idea.
How about a once per character remapping of an arbitrary amount of SP?
This would be more harsh than once per year remap, but also help rookies correct early mistakes. I already realize this would elevate the value of older characters who have preserved this remap, so maybe it could expire after 10 mil SP.
No, there should be no remap for SP at all.
If people make a mistake, fine they've made a mistake they should just accept that and try not to make anymore. I'm sure most characters have some skills that are not used or are not being used.
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Joey Moonbeam
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Posted - 2011.06.11 20:22:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Katra Novac
No, there should be no remap for SP at all.
If people make a mistake, fine they've made a mistake they should just accept that and try not to make anymore. I'm sure most characters have some skills that are not used or are not being used.
Seems like you might have a bit of the old, "it was hard on me, so it should be hard on them" mindset. The wise stance would be to consider the health of the game you play and find ways to retain new players without unbalancing it for the veterans. Is there a reason you want to continue to make the new player experience difficult? The reality of EVE is that its cut throat at every level and if a player is just too soft they will leave eventually regardless. Giving new players a reason to see it through to the more interesting content might encourage them to stick around and become a part of this hostile environment.
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Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 20:32:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Joey Moonbeam
Originally by: Katra Novac
No, there should be no remap for SP at all.
If people make a mistake, fine they've made a mistake they should just accept that and try not to make anymore. I'm sure most characters have some skills that are not used or are not being used.
Seems like you might have a bit of the old, "it was hard on me, so it should be hard on them" mindset. The wise stance would be to consider the health of the game you play and find ways to retain new players without unbalancing it for the veterans. Is there a reason you want to continue to make the new player experience difficult? The reality of EVE is that its cut throat at every level and if a player is just too soft they will leave eventually regardless. Giving new players a reason to see it through to the more interesting content might encourage them to stick around and become a part of this hostile environment.
No, nothing to do with it was hard for me etc...
But you start mucking around with the whole learning skill tree by making your decisions that you make have no real consequence, then there's really no point having a learning skill tree in the first place.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 20:43:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Joey Moonbeam Seems like you might have a bit of the old, "it was hard on me, so it should be hard on them" mindset.
It's not that it's hard ù it's that it maintains the choice/trade-off/consequence philosophy that permeates the game. Also: so what if you don't use a skill any more? If you trained it to begin with, it was because you were planning to use it, so where's the loss? This is not a class/level kind of game, where if you climb the skill tree to max level, you are stuck in that tree structure and can't do anything else. If you find that the things you've trained for are not fun any more, you train for something else, and those skills you accumulated are now a part of your character history (that you might unexpectedly pull out of the bag when least expected), much like your kill record or your corp history or your forum history or any of the myriad other imprints and traces you leave behind.
Perhaps more importantly, if you just want to try something, the amount of SP required is negligible, unless you do nothing until you have all conceivably related to skills att all-V before actually trying whatever activity you're training for, but that just means you've failed at "trying" ù you try by dipping your toes in it, not by donning the LBA and skipping out the airlock at 2,000 fathoms. If you don't like it an activity at 100k SP, you won't like it at 100M SP either and should have stopped training at 100k anyway. Trying something does not waste SP unless you do it wrong, and if you do it wrong, then that's just yet another lesson to be learned and improved on for next time.
Quote: The wise stance would be to consider the health of the game you play and find ways to retain new players without unbalancing it for the veterans.
The problem is that this suggestion does nothing for new players ù it only makes life vastly easier for vets by exponentially increasing their versatility for every second that passes. What new players need is the aforementioned lesson: try by dipping your toes, not by dying from decompression sickness, and don't be afraid to try things because you are entirely free to switch directions at any point. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
malcovas Henderson
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Posted - 2011.06.11 21:06:00 -
[97]
I am a new player. less than a month.
I learned the skills to fly a Moa and have weoponry to complete the "Epic arc" quest line as prio skill learning.
Now I can fly a Moa. I am learning to Fly a hulk/retriever to mine for Isk so I can afford the Bigger ships. While I am mining in my Hulk/Retriever, I will learn to fly the bigger ships, and to arm them.
It's called Progression. When I finally get to Fly bigger ships then i'll learn something else. It gives me something to "Go for" in the game. If I could, after a year, just re-allocate my SP's into something I am learning to do, wouldn't it be pointless me striving to "get it".
A game should evolve for a better gaming experience, But I ask those that want things easier. What is the point of playing a game that has no challenge or content to aim for.
I lost my Moa while out mining in a 0.7 zone. Someone put something in my container. I didn't know anything. Took my stuff out and bingo. one dead miner. Did i think QQ? Do I want the game changed because of it? not on your nelly. I learned a lesson. It is the same with SP's. You learn as you go along.
TL:DR Progression and Learning is fundemental in games that grip you to the seat.
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Maverick2011
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 21:11:00 -
[98]
I won't lie, i would like to have this option. After 5 years of gameplay it probably means nothing to a player since he is pretty much training for lulz but a younger player would probably have good use for those skills he spent in a wrong time.
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Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 21:22:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Katra Novac on 11/06/2011 21:26:05 Edited by: Katra Novac on 11/06/2011 21:24:28
Originally by: Maverick2011 I won't lie, i would like to have this option. After 5 years of gameplay it probably means nothing to a player since he is pretty much training for lulz but a younger player would probably have good use for those skills he spent in a wrong time.
Starting a post with 'I won't lie' does not really give it much credibility.
Why would you want this option if you are only training for laughs?
A new player's training mistakes are generally not that costly. A decision to mine then later decide to PvP can not be classed as a mistake, it was a choice that was right for them at the time they made it.
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Kinta Huron
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.06.11 21:34:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Katra Novac
Originally by: Kinta Huron
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
You know that you can buy a character from the Bazaar right?
That's true, but if you buy a character there it is very unlikely to be the exact setup (skill wise) to what you want. Plus if you buy your character, it's never truly yours in the sense you have not put the time into it and therefore can't really take the credit for it.
So what.
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.12 12:32:00 -
[101]
Moved from General Discussion.
Navigator Lead Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.06.12 13:15:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Tippia Removes the point of having attributes.
imho it doesn't, why do you think so?
Quote: Vastly diminishes the point of having skills.
It doesn't, just opens more options.
Quote: Removes choice and consequences.
Nice joke, neutral reps have no consequences for the choices they make and we can continue the number of non sense breaking rules or mechanics. You are stating that every choice has consequences but it doesn't and you should now it by now.
Quote: Removes variety.
How and why?
Quote: Encourages FOTM.
Because when you don't have other option than train minmatar or amarr to be effective or accepted in fleets is not encouraging FOTM?
Quote: Kills the character market.
Hope so, you should be able to model your character at your wish and be able to erase the noob mistakes without having to play 20h/7 or get the credit card out to buy some character giving you access to the instant gratification, because this is what character bazaar is about: instant gratification
Quote: Vastly favours old characters over new ones.
Nothing new you only need a few weeks/months to figure that out, no matter what you'll do you need at least 3 to 4 years to catch an older character but hey, flash news: now he still has 3 to 4 years more training than you...unless he has stopped training or playing since then.
Quote: Bad idea all around.
It's your opinion, not mine even if I don't agree on everything the base idea seems good to me.
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Spartis Reave
Gallente Applied Creations
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Posted - 2011.06.12 13:17:00 -
[103]
Please stop trying to turn this game into WoW. Buying/Remapping/earning skill points would ruin the game, if you hate the progression system so much just go play something else.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.12 16:13:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Tippia on 12/06/2011 16:15:17
Originally by: Swynet imho it doesn't, why do you think so?
Because you can just pile all your training time into one type of training and then redistribute those points as you like, no matter what attributes those new skills are based on. Why don't you think it does?
Quote: It doesn't, just opens more options.
How so? No additional skills will be created by this. Instead, everyone will be able to jump to the latest fad at a whim and the route you have to go through to get there becomes trivialised. This effectively means that those pathway skills are no longer relevant, and the time it takes to completely switch focus is gone.
Quote: You are stating that every choice has consequences but it doesn't and you should now it by now.
No I'm not. I'm saying that not having to live with what skills you train removes choice and consequences. Nice strawman ù too bad it doesn't change this fact or disprove it in any way.
Quote: How and why?
You no longer have to weigh pros against cons; specialisation against variety; future gains against immediate ones. These choices create variety between characters ù removing those choices remove the variety.
Quote: Because when you don't have other option than train minmatar or amarr to be effective or accepted in fleets is not encouraging FOTM?
Even if that were true (it's not, btw), so what? Just because it is bad already doesn't mean we should make it even worse. You're not offering a counter-argument; you're providing a reason why it definitely shouldn't happen.
Quote: Hope so, you should be able to model your character at your wish and be able to erase the noob mistakes without having to play 20h/7
Good news: you are already able to model your character as you wish, and don't have to play 20/7 to erase noob mistakes ù in fact, you can't erase noob mistakes, and this is what makes your character unique. It's a good thing.
Quote: or get the credit card out to buy some character giving you access to the instant gratification, because this is what character bazaar is about: instant gratification
Funnily enough, the character bazaar is about as non-instant as a purchase can be: building a sellable charater takes ages, and if you haven't put the time in to learn to use that character, it will be a waste of ISK to buy it.
Quote: Nothing new you only need a few weeks/months to figure that out,
Even if that were true (it's notà well, not to the extent you think), just because it's (supposedly) bad already doesn't means we should make it even worse. Again, you're not offering a counter-argument but instead showing why it definitely shouldn't happen.
Quote: no matter what you'll do you need at least 3 to 4 years to catch an older character
Ah. The "catching up" fallacy. No, you don't need several years to "catch up" to older characters. Aside from the fact that "catching up", as a concept, doesn't apply to EVE, the way the skill system is set up, you can always catch up, and do it in surprisingly little time. This idea removes that ability.
But thank you for the additional argument:
This suggestion handily, and in one fell swoop, both introduces the concept of catching up in EVE and makes it impossible for new characters to do. It gives total SP a meaning it has never had before ù this being the one thing new players cannot "catch up" with. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Swynet
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Posted - 2011.06.12 21:26:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Tippia answer
Thx for your answer. Every one would benefit from it noobs has older players, but nobody would "have to", but I still think it should be an option.
If the game was made around older players opinions Eve would have even less customers than they have, progression and changes are needed to open the game to more players and doesn't mean wasting the game. The game is already wasted by super caps flown by noobs, oops vets sorry, bit vets can flippers, old high sec griefers exploiting game mechanics to perma wardec noobs corps and industrials and I tend to beleive the same that mostly use bots.
But this is only my opinion.
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