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Dobbs Head
EVE University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:36:00 -
[1]
Perhaps we could benefit from taking a step back and looking at some basic facts rather than snowballing an unsub cascade over emotional speculation.
What has actually happened:
-Aur was instituted for a very few vanity items
-Lost the hangar
-Gained an avatar
-Gained a good Agent finder
-Internal newsletter of mandated employee brainstorming was made public
-Possibly authentic private email from a higher up providing encouragement to his employees was made public
What has not happened:
-pay to win items introduced
-mandatory use of the Aur
Is anyone harmed by the Aur? Has it changed anything? Those who want to use it can. Those who don't want to most certainly don't have to. No pay-to-win items have been introduced. CCP has not commented one way or the other about it other than to say that vanity items for Aur are here to stay. Folks are quitting over something that hasn't been confirmed. These are actions stemming from an emotional response based on mandatory brainstorming by CCP employees. You have to sift through bad ideas to find the good ones. You should hear every possible idea before you decide on a course of action.
It doesn't appear that all the ideas presented in the newsletter are part of the CCP road map toward greater revenue potential. What it does look like is a bunch of folks put a bunch of ideas on the table to be raked through for the ideas that are actually workable. While the newsletter has been confirmed as real, no statement has been made regarding the ideas contained within the document. Everyone has assumed that the ideas presented in the newsletter are defacto parts of CCP's vision of the future of EvE. There is no evidence at all that this is the case.
The information contained in the newsletter and the possibly authentic email exists in a vacuum. It wasn't intended for our eyes and CCP clearly is not prepared to discuss this private correspondence. I understand their current position. Hopefully their position will change and the player base will be invited in to the brainstorming. Every pilot in EvE wants to see EvE remain viable, enjoyable, and playable.
Well, we lost the hangar. That sucks, but who can say whether or not CCP will re-enable the classic hangar view now that so many players have voiced very strong attachment to their hangars? Isn't it possible that the folks up at the office will see that there are small things in the game which have great meaning to many of the player base? No one can say that CCP won't re-enable the classic hangar view until CCP says it clearly. In the mean time, there is a "suggestions" forum to handle this particular issue.
We lost the classic hangar but gained an avatar. It's a first step to an interesting idea which revolves around a greater immersion. It has potential to be very, very kewl. Sure, right now it's kinda glitchy, but they'll get it figured out and squared away. I, for one, do want the option of walking through the station. I want to be able to sit down at a table with other Unistas or wander around and check out whatever features they're going to add. This doesn't take away from the game. It adds to it, if you want it to.
Isn't it possible that CCP might be rolling out some interesting things with some of the changes they're contemplating? No one here can say for sure what is seriously being considered by CCP management.
I think that a message has been clearly conveyed by many folks: We won't subscribe to any game with a pay-to-win system. What must be recognized is that other players might. The problem that CCP will face with establishing a pay-to-win system is the gamble involved in alienating their current player base while hoping to attract new player base. Other companies have failed with this same gamble. What must be said is that while there is evidence in the newsletter that CCP is open to sifting through many different options there is no evidence at all that they are actively pursuing the installation of a pay-to-win system
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Dobbs Head
EVE University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:39:00 -
[2]
After giving it some thought, I don't believe that what we're seeing is the "New EvE Enhancements".
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:41:00 -
[3]
Not like i needed another reason to dislike eve uni. But you really made the case for it with this troll.
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Volyte
Immortalis Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:41:00 -
[4]
No.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:42:00 -
[5]
Not interested. Move along.
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Budrick3
Douchingtons
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:44:00 -
[6]
guys...give him a break. He is still in eve uni and still learning.
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Htuomotssa
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:45:00 -
[7]
You know what they say about arguing with people on the internet?
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Katrina Cortez
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:45:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Katrina Cortez on 25/06/2011 05:46:24
There is a bigger issue here... Hilmar was right about one thing, the world is watching. Every game manufacturer is watching to see if CCP gets away with charging prices for virtual items in excess of their real world counterpart. If this works, then this will be the new gaming model and every game you play from now on will be like it.
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Diarrhea Face
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:45:00 -
[9]
the bigger problem is that ccp tells the community they're going to, or not going to, do one thing (e.g. make improvements to specific areas of the game, refrain from something that's a bad idea), then does the opposite. there have been plenty of posts that go into much more detail about this and other issues. the aur thing is just another straw on the camel's back.
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Sasuke Rukh
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:47:00 -
[10]
You sounded reasonable until the last paragraph. You're right that none of these things have happened -- yet. But I think players are very correct in expressing their extreme displeasure at CCP thinking this direction is a plausible alternative. No, it's not ok that there might be some players who are ok with being milked like brainless cattle. We are not ok with this. We are not ok with them thinking they can take our subscription money and use it to pay for development of items to sell back to us. We are not ok with them CONSIDERING if they can ignore player opinion to make extra money. We are not ok with them CONSIDERING adding in pay to win items.
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Starkiller Adams
Gallente
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:47:00 -
[11]
if u think we are just mad about incarna GTFO
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Regan Rotineque
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:52:00 -
[12]
As someone new to EvE I have spent the last bit reading through the forum....I can see so much passion from the community. This is perhaps the first rational and not emotional post I have seen regarding what is happening right now.
This is not a criticism of those who are right now fearing the end to EvE as they know it....I can see (from my limited time on EvE) how you have come to love this game and built a strong and vibrant gaming community. I can understand the fear that many have...as someone new to the game I like the fact that all in game items are coming from the community.
But I also understand the needs of a business to grow and to expand its revenue base to ensure that it can provide new products to its customer base. CCP has not done a good job explaining itself to the community...and these "leaked" documents and emails are compounding an already bad situation.
However as Dobbs has pointed out here....it may be time to take a step back. CCP has already said that they will be responding.
Lets give them a chance.
Thank you Dobbs for your post.
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Call Me Death
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:54:00 -
[13]
 Originally by: Regan Rotineque
As someone new to EvE I have spent the last bit reading through the forum....I can see so much passion from the community. This is perhaps the first rational and not emotional post I have seen regarding what is happening right now.
This is not a criticism of those who are right now fearing the end to EvE as they know it....I can see (from my limited time on EvE) how you have come to love this game and built a strong and vibrant gaming community. I can understand the fear that many have...as someone new to the game I like the fact that all in game items are coming from the community.
But I also understand the needs of a business to grow and to expand its revenue base to ensure that it can provide new products to its customer base. CCP has not done a good job explaining itself to the community...and these "leaked" documents and emails are compounding an already bad situation.
However as Dobbs has pointed out here....it may be time to take a step back. CCP has already said that they will be responding.
Lets give them a chance.
Thank you Dobbs for your post.
You are new.
Nuff said.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Regan Rotineque
As someone new to EvE I have spent the last bit reading through the forum....I can see so much passion from the community. This is perhaps the first rational and not emotional post I have seen regarding what is happening right now.
This is not a criticism of those who are right now fearing the end to EvE as they know it....I can see (from my limited time on EvE) how you have come to love this game and built a strong and vibrant gaming community. I can understand the fear that many have...as someone new to the game I like the fact that all in game items are coming from the community.
But I also understand the needs of a business to grow and to expand its revenue base to ensure that it can provide new products to its customer base. CCP has not done a good job explaining itself to the community...and these "leaked" documents and emails are compounding an already bad situation.
However as Dobbs has pointed out here....it may be time to take a step back. CCP has already said that they will be responding.
Lets give them a chance.
Thank you Dobbs for your post.
You not see the CEOs letter that says that they will not be responding and that saying they will is just smoke and mirrors buddy?
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Dobbs Head
EVE University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:56:00 -
[15]
Yeah, it's clear that they dropped the ball here as far as involving the community. Listening to some of the comments by the CSM, I would think that there certainly was a better way to roll this out.
It doesn't really change the fact that there is certainly a mob mentality effect going on, and CCP appears to be having some difficulty engaging on the issues at hand.
But ultimately, the facts at hand are not all that horrible. What I'm seeing is a bunch of folks focusing a lot of hatred on things that haven't yet been brought into play...or even hinted at being planned to be brought into play.
Gotta say that I wouldn't engage the community either when there are calls for virtual "justice" of some of the folks involved in brainstorming for the company they work for.
It seems that the message being conveyed by the many vocal, hostile players is based on things which haven't even been decided upon. So, I look to the facts of the situation and see that they aren't bad at all.
There is an irrational and emotional mob mentality going on. The facts don't really seem to support all this rage.
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Kez Aumer
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Regan Rotineque
CCP has already said that they will be responding.
Lets give them a chance.
You must have missed the part where they responded, and their response was a steaming pile of $1000 jeans that completely failed to address the complaints.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:58:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dobbs Head
-Possibly authentic private email from a higher up providing encouragement to his employees was made public
This was confirmed by CCP Manifest.
http://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Manifest
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Dobbs Head
EVE University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:00:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 06:00:05
Originally by: Sasuke Rukh
You sounded reasonable until the last paragraph. You're right that none of these things have happened -- yet. But I think players are very correct in expressing their extreme displeasure at CCP thinking this direction is a plausible alternative. No, it's not ok that there might be some players who are ok with being milked like brainless cattle. We are not ok with this. We are not ok with them thinking they can take our subscription money and use it to pay for development of items to sell back to us. We are not ok with them CONSIDERING if they can ignore player opinion to make extra money. We are not ok with them CONSIDERING adding in pay to win items.
Bah! Don't get me wrong. I wasn't advocating for brainless players who willingly walk up to be milked! But the fact remains that there are players who will do this very thing.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dobbs Head
There is an irrational and emotional mob mentality going on. The facts don't really seem to support all this rage.
I made up my mind to leave when I saw the door. A full day before the "mob" started.
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Weeble Tauri
Caldari
Battle Cattle
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:02:00 -
[20]
I'm ok with the current status quo. They could offer a gold plated Raven bpc, a bpc for a frigate like the ISD's have, or even a super fancy t-shirt for an avatar. These could even cost hundreds of real life dollars and I wouldn't care.
However the moment they add pay to win items I'm out.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:03:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Londo Cebb on 25/06/2011 06:03:29
Originally by: Weeble Tauri
I'm ok with the current status quo. They could offer a gold plated Raven bpc, a bpc for a frigate like the ISD's have, or even a super fancy t-shirt for an avatar. These could even cost hundreds of real life dollars and I wouldn't care.
However the moment they add pay to win items I'm out.
It is painfully obvious what type of customer CCP now wants. They can not say no, because this is going to happen.
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Jandice Ymladris
Caldari
dark influence
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:03:00 -
[22]
Good to see a more objective post about incarna on here. Also what people forgot is that CCP has retracted the only non vanity item planned, the scorpion. Used to be aurum= shiny scoprion (no player input). Beleive they plan to change it to basic scorpion+aurum=shiny scorpion now. Wich would be an idea I can accept (the shiny scorpion is identical to the basic one in every way but textures) This shows they do listen, but right now the fprums are so hostile, most people with moderate posts are shunned, wich is a shame.
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Cleaning up wrecks others leave behind! Got to keep space clean! |
Regan Rotineque
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:06:00 -
[23]
I expected to get flamed for my reply.
Please do not take my response the wrong way. I think CCP has flubbed this...and in a major way. However I like to think of myself as a reasonable and rational person.
I 100% agree with anyone who says they do not want pay-to-win items. In fact this is the only MMO i have ever played and paid. Why? because it was subscription and all things were included in the price.
Now I do not object to their being vanity items - including hanger stuff, clothing, jewelry and yes SHIPS. But these items must not provide enhancements or a leg up to any player. You want your hot pink Scorpion or your alliance logo tagged on your stuff....go ahead and pay the AUR to have it done. But there should be no performance bonuses over items that can and are built in the sandbox. And with ships I think it should be a trade in system...buy one off the regular market and trade it in. ie: get your scorpion from Regan's Sales dept. and got to AUR store and boom....you have your hot pink Hello KittyÖ version within an hour.
Cheers
~Regan~
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:07:00 -
[24]
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=reply&threadID=1537899
Originally by: Iamien
Edited by: Iamien on 25/06/2011 05:55:07
Not including links as I don't want to give reason for this thread's closure, please honor this intention.
1. Incarna Launches riddled with hardware performance issues for some as well as exorbitantly priced Clothing/accessory.
2. People rage about prices, and performance.
3. Internal CCP newsletter leaks that strongly suggest non-vanity MT coming to eve.
4. People rage about leaked PDF.
5. CCP Pann makes a thread apologizing for not responding earlier and puts forward that our chief complaint is the prices, which is no longer the case following the leaked PDF.
6. People overwhelmingly flood CCP Pann's thread with the question of whether non-vanity MT will be coming to eve. All CCP say on the point is they cannot answer.
7. In-game protests start aimed at disrupting the trade hubs and spreading word about their concerns.
8. A out-of-character devblog with a by-line of CCP Zulu is posted. The devblog only addressed the PDF in saying that is not a verbatim indication of their plans but is more a discussion. The dev-blog also addresses the prices of the current items, but nothing about the concern of future MT items.
9. Protests/forum rage continues.
10. An eve-radio show with several CSM members(current & past) goes through the issue. CSM members state the the CCP Zulu devblog is out of character and that they have been stonewalled as far as all the recent controversy has been concerned.
11. During the radio show the e-mail of hillmar's is released, which quickly ends any contemplation to CCP's intentions and stance.
12. YOU ARE HERE.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Regan Rotineque
Edited by: Regan Rotineque on 25/06/2011 06:07:04
I expected to get flamed for my reply.
Please do not take my response the wrong way. I think CCP has flubbed this...and in a major way. However I like to think of myself as a reasonable and rational person.
I 100% agree with anyone who says they do not want pay-to-win items. In fact this is the only MMO i have ever played and paid. Why? because it was subscription and all things were included in the price.
Now I do not object to there being vanity items - including hanger stuff, clothing, jewelry and yes SHIPS. But these items must not provide enhancements or a leg up to any player. You want your hot pink Scorpion or your alliance logo tagged on your stuff....go ahead and pay the AUR to have it done. But there should be no performance bonuses over items that can and are built in the sandbox. And with ships I think it should be a trade in system...buy one off the regular market and trade it in. ie: get your scorpion from Regan's Sales dept. and got to AUR store and boom....you have your hot pink Hello KittyÖ version within an hour.
Cheers
~Regan~
Yeah, I couldn't possibly care less about the inclusion of vanity items in game. Some folks will buy stuff, some folks won't. It won't change the balance of anything.
As far as the current prices are concerned, it's clear that I'll be avoiding the vanity items, but the NeX isn't a game-breaker for me no matter how high or low the prices may be.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:13:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Regan Rotineque
Edited by: Regan Rotineque on 25/06/2011 06:07:04
I expected to get flamed for my reply.
Please do not take my response the wrong way. I think CCP has flubbed this...and in a major way. However I like to think of myself as a reasonable and rational person.
I 100% agree with anyone who says they do not want pay-to-win items. In fact this is the only MMO i have ever played and paid. Why? because it was subscription and all things were included in the price.
Now I do not object to there being vanity items - including hanger stuff, clothing, jewelry and yes SHIPS. But these items must not provide enhancements or a leg up to any player. You want your hot pink Scorpion or your alliance logo tagged on your stuff....go ahead and pay the AUR to have it done. But there should be no performance bonuses over items that can and are built in the sandbox. And with ships I think it should be a trade in system...buy one off the regular market and trade it in. ie: get your scorpion from Regan's Sales dept. and got to AUR store and boom....you have your hot pink Hello KittyÖ version within an hour.
Cheers
~Regan~
I think most players who are quitting are fully inline with what you said.
For me personally, CCP's silence on the issue screams their intentions are to implement pay-to-win items.
Be informed and make you own decision.
Fly safe.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:24:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 06:26:00
Originally by: Londo Cebb
Originally by: Regan Rotineque
Edited by: Regan Rotineque on 25/06/2011 06:07:04
I expected to get flamed for my reply.
Please do not take my response the wrong way. I think CCP has flubbed this...and in a major way. However I like to think of myself as a reasonable and rational person.
I 100% agree with anyone who says they do not want pay-to-win items. In fact this is the only MMO i have ever played and paid. Why? because it was subscription and all things were included in the price.
Now I do not object to there being vanity items - including hanger stuff, clothing, jewelry and yes SHIPS. But these items must not provide enhancements or a leg up to any player. You want your hot pink Scorpion or your alliance logo tagged on your stuff....go ahead and pay the AUR to have it done. But there should be no performance bonuses over items that can and are built in the sandbox. And with ships I think it should be a trade in system...buy one off the regular market and trade it in. ie: get your scorpion from Regan's Sales dept. and got to AUR store and boom....you have your hot pink Hello KittyÖ version within an hour.
Cheers
~Regan~
I think most players who are quitting are fully inline with what you said.
For me personally, CCP's silence on the issue screams their intentions are to implement pay-to-win items.
Be informed and make you own decision.
Fly safe.
Huh, I got a different impression from their silence.
It really seems more like they were stunned by the sudden vehement reaction of many players. I can understand why CCP Pann would advise the staff to wait it out. It seemed like a sudden flare of hostile emotion which wasn't really based on the facts at hand but on speculation and interpretation of an internal newsletter. Hell, it wasn't even a development doc, just a freakin' newsletter!
The site that reported on it actually shaved some info from the pages, presenting the more juicier tid-bits as media folks tend to do. The original doc has a disclaimer which states clearly that this isn't the CCP roadmap to future development.
Folks were spun into a mob based on limited information. CCP decided to wait it out. They were wrong. CCP Pann apologized and asked for a parley which ended up being a 200+ page threadnaught of your standard obnoxious and half informed internet rants and one-liners with only the occasional reasonable post.
The few posts that CCP staff made were met with immediate and irrational hostility, so they quit interacting with us. Can you blame them? Is it their job to appease the great unwashed masses of angry gamers? Not really.
Their silence seems more like an act of self-defense. If everything they're posting gets met with unreasonable responses and flamed down into the ground, why bother responding? It just fuels the fire of folks who seem like they want to be angry over whatever is said.
The facts of the current situation do not justify the words and actions of many of the folks who have been front and center.
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kardjaval
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:26:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Htuomotssa
You know what they say about arguing with people on the internet?
no matter who wins, everyone still feels like they ate crap?
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Atreus Venom
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:32:00 -
[29]
you forgot something in the list of things that havent happened... CCP hasnt responded to the question of game changeing items in NEX in the future... and also they havent made a decent dev blog either jesus it communication time on the rainbow express... your words mean nothing because your not CCP GTFO
º--Atreus--º
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:36:00 -
[30]
I won't try to justify the words and actions of others.
But if the answer truly was "NO" it would have been unbelievably easy for them to say it.
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