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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:36:00 -
[1]
Perhaps we could benefit from taking a step back and looking at some basic facts rather than snowballing an unsub cascade over emotional speculation.
What has actually happened:
-Aur was instituted for a very few vanity items -Lost the hangar -Gained an avatar -Gained a good Agent finder -Internal newsletter of mandated employee brainstorming was made public -Possibly authentic private email from a higher up providing encouragement to his employees was made public
What has not happened:
-pay to win items introduced -mandatory use of the Aur
Is anyone harmed by the Aur? Has it changed anything? Those who want to use it can. Those who don't want to most certainly don't have to. No pay-to-win items have been introduced. CCP has not commented one way or the other about it other than to say that vanity items for Aur are here to stay. Folks are quitting over something that hasn't been confirmed. These are actions stemming from an emotional response based on mandatory brainstorming by CCP employees. You have to sift through bad ideas to find the good ones. You should hear every possible idea before you decide on a course of action.
It doesn't appear that all the ideas presented in the newsletter are part of the CCP road map toward greater revenue potential. What it does look like is a bunch of folks put a bunch of ideas on the table to be raked through for the ideas that are actually workable. While the newsletter has been confirmed as real, no statement has been made regarding the ideas contained within the document. Everyone has assumed that the ideas presented in the newsletter are defacto parts of CCP's vision of the future of EvE. There is no evidence at all that this is the case.
The information contained in the newsletter and the possibly authentic email exists in a vacuum. It wasn't intended for our eyes and CCP clearly is not prepared to discuss this private correspondence. I understand their current position. Hopefully their position will change and the player base will be invited in to the brainstorming. Every pilot in EvE wants to see EvE remain viable, enjoyable, and playable.
Well, we lost the hangar. That sucks, but who can say whether or not CCP will re-enable the classic hangar view now that so many players have voiced very strong attachment to their hangars? Isn't it possible that the folks up at the office will see that there are small things in the game which have great meaning to many of the player base? No one can say that CCP won't re-enable the classic hangar view until CCP says it clearly. In the mean time, there is a "suggestions" forum to handle this particular issue.
We lost the classic hangar but gained an avatar. It's a first step to an interesting idea which revolves around a greater immersion. It has potential to be very, very kewl. Sure, right now it's kinda glitchy, but they'll get it figured out and squared away. I, for one, do want the option of walking through the station. I want to be able to sit down at a table with other Unistas or wander around and check out whatever features they're going to add. This doesn't take away from the game. It adds to it, if you want it to.
Isn't it possible that CCP might be rolling out some interesting things with some of the changes they're contemplating? No one here can say for sure what is seriously being considered by CCP management.
I think that a message has been clearly conveyed by many folks: We won't subscribe to any game with a pay-to-win system. What must be recognized is that other players might. The problem that CCP will face with establishing a pay-to-win system is the gamble involved in alienating their current player base while hoping to attract new player base. Other companies have failed with this same gamble. What must be said is that while there is evidence in the newsletter that CCP is open to sifting through many different options there is no evidence at all that they are actively pursuing the installation of a pay-to-win system
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:39:00 -
[2]
After giving it some thought, I don't believe that what we're seeing is the "New EvE Enhancements".
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:41:00 -
[3]
Not like i needed another reason to dislike eve uni. But you really made the case for it with this troll.
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Volyte
Immortalis Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:41:00 -
[4]
No.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:42:00 -
[5]
Not interested. Move along.
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Budrick3
Douchingtons
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:44:00 -
[6]
guys...give him a break. He is still in eve uni and still learning.
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Htuomotssa
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:45:00 -
[7]
You know what they say about arguing with people on the internet?
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Katrina Cortez
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:45:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Katrina Cortez on 25/06/2011 05:46:24 There is a bigger issue here... Hilmar was right about one thing, the world is watching. Every game manufacturer is watching to see if CCP gets away with charging prices for virtual items in excess of their real world counterpart. If this works, then this will be the new gaming model and every game you play from now on will be like it.
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Diarrhea Face
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:45:00 -
[9]
the bigger problem is that ccp tells the community they're going to, or not going to, do one thing (e.g. make improvements to specific areas of the game, refrain from something that's a bad idea), then does the opposite. there have been plenty of posts that go into much more detail about this and other issues. the aur thing is just another straw on the camel's back.
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Sasuke Rukh
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:47:00 -
[10]
You sounded reasonable until the last paragraph. You're right that none of these things have happened -- yet. But I think players are very correct in expressing their extreme displeasure at CCP thinking this direction is a plausible alternative. No, it's not ok that there might be some players who are ok with being milked like brainless cattle. We are not ok with this. We are not ok with them thinking they can take our subscription money and use it to pay for development of items to sell back to us. We are not ok with them CONSIDERING if they can ignore player opinion to make extra money. We are not ok with them CONSIDERING adding in pay to win items.
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Starkiller Adams
Gallente Interwebs Cooter Explosion Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:47:00 -
[11]
if u think we are just mad about incarna GTFO
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Regan Rotineque
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:52:00 -
[12]
As someone new to EvE I have spent the last bit reading through the forum....I can see so much passion from the community. This is perhaps the first rational and not emotional post I have seen regarding what is happening right now.
This is not a criticism of those who are right now fearing the end to EvE as they know it....I can see (from my limited time on EvE) how you have come to love this game and built a strong and vibrant gaming community. I can understand the fear that many have...as someone new to the game I like the fact that all in game items are coming from the community.
But I also understand the needs of a business to grow and to expand its revenue base to ensure that it can provide new products to its customer base. CCP has not done a good job explaining itself to the community...and these "leaked" documents and emails are compounding an already bad situation.
However as Dobbs has pointed out here....it may be time to take a step back. CCP has already said that they will be responding.
Lets give them a chance.
Thank you Dobbs for your post.
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Call Me Death
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:54:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Regan Rotineque As someone new to EvE I have spent the last bit reading through the forum....I can see so much passion from the community. This is perhaps the first rational and not emotional post I have seen regarding what is happening right now.
This is not a criticism of those who are right now fearing the end to EvE as they know it....I can see (from my limited time on EvE) how you have come to love this game and built a strong and vibrant gaming community. I can understand the fear that many have...as someone new to the game I like the fact that all in game items are coming from the community.
But I also understand the needs of a business to grow and to expand its revenue base to ensure that it can provide new products to its customer base. CCP has not done a good job explaining itself to the community...and these "leaked" documents and emails are compounding an already bad situation.
However as Dobbs has pointed out here....it may be time to take a step back. CCP has already said that they will be responding.
Lets give them a chance.
Thank you Dobbs for your post.
You are new.
Nuff said.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Regan Rotineque As someone new to EvE I have spent the last bit reading through the forum....I can see so much passion from the community. This is perhaps the first rational and not emotional post I have seen regarding what is happening right now.
This is not a criticism of those who are right now fearing the end to EvE as they know it....I can see (from my limited time on EvE) how you have come to love this game and built a strong and vibrant gaming community. I can understand the fear that many have...as someone new to the game I like the fact that all in game items are coming from the community.
But I also understand the needs of a business to grow and to expand its revenue base to ensure that it can provide new products to its customer base. CCP has not done a good job explaining itself to the community...and these "leaked" documents and emails are compounding an already bad situation.
However as Dobbs has pointed out here....it may be time to take a step back. CCP has already said that they will be responding.
Lets give them a chance.
Thank you Dobbs for your post.
You not see the CEOs letter that says that they will not be responding and that saying they will is just smoke and mirrors buddy?
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:56:00 -
[15]
Yeah, it's clear that they dropped the ball here as far as involving the community. Listening to some of the comments by the CSM, I would think that there certainly was a better way to roll this out.
It doesn't really change the fact that there is certainly a mob mentality effect going on, and CCP appears to be having some difficulty engaging on the issues at hand.
But ultimately, the facts at hand are not all that horrible. What I'm seeing is a bunch of folks focusing a lot of hatred on things that haven't yet been brought into play...or even hinted at being planned to be brought into play.
Gotta say that I wouldn't engage the community either when there are calls for virtual "justice" of some of the folks involved in brainstorming for the company they work for.
It seems that the message being conveyed by the many vocal, hostile players is based on things which haven't even been decided upon. So, I look to the facts of the situation and see that they aren't bad at all.
There is an irrational and emotional mob mentality going on. The facts don't really seem to support all this rage.
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Kez Aumer
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Regan Rotineque CCP has already said that they will be responding.
Lets give them a chance.
You must have missed the part where they responded, and their response was a steaming pile of $1000 jeans that completely failed to address the complaints.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:58:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dobbs Head
-Possibly authentic private email from a higher up providing encouragement to his employees was made public
This was confirmed by CCP Manifest.
http://twitter.com/#!/CCP_Manifest
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:00:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 06:00:05
Originally by: Sasuke Rukh You sounded reasonable until the last paragraph. You're right that none of these things have happened -- yet. But I think players are very correct in expressing their extreme displeasure at CCP thinking this direction is a plausible alternative. No, it's not ok that there might be some players who are ok with being milked like brainless cattle. We are not ok with this. We are not ok with them thinking they can take our subscription money and use it to pay for development of items to sell back to us. We are not ok with them CONSIDERING if they can ignore player opinion to make extra money. We are not ok with them CONSIDERING adding in pay to win items.
Bah! Don't get me wrong. I wasn't advocating for brainless players who willingly walk up to be milked! But the fact remains that there are players who will do this very thing.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dobbs Head
There is an irrational and emotional mob mentality going on. The facts don't really seem to support all this rage.
I made up my mind to leave when I saw the door. A full day before the "mob" started.
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Weeble Tauri
Caldari Battle Cattle
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:02:00 -
[20]
I'm ok with the current status quo. They could offer a gold plated Raven bpc, a bpc for a frigate like the ISD's have, or even a super fancy t-shirt for an avatar. These could even cost hundreds of real life dollars and I wouldn't care.
However the moment they add pay to win items I'm out.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:03:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Londo Cebb on 25/06/2011 06:03:29
Originally by: Weeble Tauri I'm ok with the current status quo. They could offer a gold plated Raven bpc, a bpc for a frigate like the ISD's have, or even a super fancy t-shirt for an avatar. These could even cost hundreds of real life dollars and I wouldn't care.
However the moment they add pay to win items I'm out.
It is painfully obvious what type of customer CCP now wants. They can not say no, because this is going to happen.
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Jandice Ymladris
Caldari dark influence
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:03:00 -
[22]
Good to see a more objective post about incarna on here. Also what people forgot is that CCP has retracted the only non vanity item planned, the scorpion. Used to be aurum= shiny scoprion (no player input). Beleive they plan to change it to basic scorpion+aurum=shiny scorpion now. Wich would be an idea I can accept (the shiny scorpion is identical to the basic one in every way but textures) This shows they do listen, but right now the fprums are so hostile, most people with moderate posts are shunned, wich is a shame. -------------- Cleaning up wrecks others leave behind! Got to keep space clean! |
Regan Rotineque
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:06:00 -
[23]
I expected to get flamed for my reply.
Please do not take my response the wrong way. I think CCP has flubbed this...and in a major way. However I like to think of myself as a reasonable and rational person.
I 100% agree with anyone who says they do not want pay-to-win items. In fact this is the only MMO i have ever played and paid. Why? because it was subscription and all things were included in the price.
Now I do not object to their being vanity items - including hanger stuff, clothing, jewelry and yes SHIPS. But these items must not provide enhancements or a leg up to any player. You want your hot pink Scorpion or your alliance logo tagged on your stuff....go ahead and pay the AUR to have it done. But there should be no performance bonuses over items that can and are built in the sandbox. And with ships I think it should be a trade in system...buy one off the regular market and trade it in. ie: get your scorpion from Regan's Sales dept. and got to AUR store and boom....you have your hot pink Hello KittyÖ version within an hour.
Cheers ~Regan~
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:07:00 -
[24]
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=reply&threadID=1537899
Originally by: Iamien Edited by: Iamien on 25/06/2011 05:55:07 Not including links as I don't want to give reason for this thread's closure, please honor this intention.
1. Incarna Launches riddled with hardware performance issues for some as well as exorbitantly priced Clothing/accessory. 2. People rage about prices, and performance. 3. Internal CCP newsletter leaks that strongly suggest non-vanity MT coming to eve. 4. People rage about leaked PDF. 5. CCP Pann makes a thread apologizing for not responding earlier and puts forward that our chief complaint is the prices, which is no longer the case following the leaked PDF. 6. People overwhelmingly flood CCP Pann's thread with the question of whether non-vanity MT will be coming to eve. All CCP say on the point is they cannot answer. 7. In-game protests start aimed at disrupting the trade hubs and spreading word about their concerns. 8. A out-of-character devblog with a by-line of CCP Zulu is posted. The devblog only addressed the PDF in saying that is not a verbatim indication of their plans but is more a discussion. The dev-blog also addresses the prices of the current items, but nothing about the concern of future MT items. 9. Protests/forum rage continues. 10. An eve-radio show with several CSM members(current & past) goes through the issue. CSM members state the the CCP Zulu devblog is out of character and that they have been stonewalled as far as all the recent controversy has been concerned. 11. During the radio show the e-mail of hillmar's is released, which quickly ends any contemplation to CCP's intentions and stance. 12. YOU ARE HERE.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Regan Rotineque Edited by: Regan Rotineque on 25/06/2011 06:07:04 I expected to get flamed for my reply.
Please do not take my response the wrong way. I think CCP has flubbed this...and in a major way. However I like to think of myself as a reasonable and rational person.
I 100% agree with anyone who says they do not want pay-to-win items. In fact this is the only MMO i have ever played and paid. Why? because it was subscription and all things were included in the price.
Now I do not object to there being vanity items - including hanger stuff, clothing, jewelry and yes SHIPS. But these items must not provide enhancements or a leg up to any player. You want your hot pink Scorpion or your alliance logo tagged on your stuff....go ahead and pay the AUR to have it done. But there should be no performance bonuses over items that can and are built in the sandbox. And with ships I think it should be a trade in system...buy one off the regular market and trade it in. ie: get your scorpion from Regan's Sales dept. and got to AUR store and boom....you have your hot pink Hello KittyÖ version within an hour.
Cheers ~Regan~
Yeah, I couldn't possibly care less about the inclusion of vanity items in game. Some folks will buy stuff, some folks won't. It won't change the balance of anything.
As far as the current prices are concerned, it's clear that I'll be avoiding the vanity items, but the NeX isn't a game-breaker for me no matter how high or low the prices may be.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:13:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Regan Rotineque Edited by: Regan Rotineque on 25/06/2011 06:07:04 I expected to get flamed for my reply.
Please do not take my response the wrong way. I think CCP has flubbed this...and in a major way. However I like to think of myself as a reasonable and rational person.
I 100% agree with anyone who says they do not want pay-to-win items. In fact this is the only MMO i have ever played and paid. Why? because it was subscription and all things were included in the price.
Now I do not object to there being vanity items - including hanger stuff, clothing, jewelry and yes SHIPS. But these items must not provide enhancements or a leg up to any player. You want your hot pink Scorpion or your alliance logo tagged on your stuff....go ahead and pay the AUR to have it done. But there should be no performance bonuses over items that can and are built in the sandbox. And with ships I think it should be a trade in system...buy one off the regular market and trade it in. ie: get your scorpion from Regan's Sales dept. and got to AUR store and boom....you have your hot pink Hello KittyÖ version within an hour.
Cheers ~Regan~
I think most players who are quitting are fully inline with what you said.
For me personally, CCP's silence on the issue screams their intentions are to implement pay-to-win items.
Be informed and make you own decision.
Fly safe.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:24:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 06:26:00
Originally by: Londo Cebb
Originally by: Regan Rotineque Edited by: Regan Rotineque on 25/06/2011 06:07:04 I expected to get flamed for my reply.
Please do not take my response the wrong way. I think CCP has flubbed this...and in a major way. However I like to think of myself as a reasonable and rational person.
I 100% agree with anyone who says they do not want pay-to-win items. In fact this is the only MMO i have ever played and paid. Why? because it was subscription and all things were included in the price.
Now I do not object to there being vanity items - including hanger stuff, clothing, jewelry and yes SHIPS. But these items must not provide enhancements or a leg up to any player. You want your hot pink Scorpion or your alliance logo tagged on your stuff....go ahead and pay the AUR to have it done. But there should be no performance bonuses over items that can and are built in the sandbox. And with ships I think it should be a trade in system...buy one off the regular market and trade it in. ie: get your scorpion from Regan's Sales dept. and got to AUR store and boom....you have your hot pink Hello KittyÖ version within an hour.
Cheers ~Regan~
I think most players who are quitting are fully inline with what you said.
For me personally, CCP's silence on the issue screams their intentions are to implement pay-to-win items.
Be informed and make you own decision.
Fly safe.
Huh, I got a different impression from their silence.
It really seems more like they were stunned by the sudden vehement reaction of many players. I can understand why CCP Pann would advise the staff to wait it out. It seemed like a sudden flare of hostile emotion which wasn't really based on the facts at hand but on speculation and interpretation of an internal newsletter. Hell, it wasn't even a development doc, just a freakin' newsletter!
The site that reported on it actually shaved some info from the pages, presenting the more juicier tid-bits as media folks tend to do. The original doc has a disclaimer which states clearly that this isn't the CCP roadmap to future development.
Folks were spun into a mob based on limited information. CCP decided to wait it out. They were wrong. CCP Pann apologized and asked for a parley which ended up being a 200+ page threadnaught of your standard obnoxious and half informed internet rants and one-liners with only the occasional reasonable post.
The few posts that CCP staff made were met with immediate and irrational hostility, so they quit interacting with us. Can you blame them? Is it their job to appease the great unwashed masses of angry gamers? Not really.
Their silence seems more like an act of self-defense. If everything they're posting gets met with unreasonable responses and flamed down into the ground, why bother responding? It just fuels the fire of folks who seem like they want to be angry over whatever is said.
The facts of the current situation do not justify the words and actions of many of the folks who have been front and center.
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kardjaval
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:26:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Htuomotssa You know what they say about arguing with people on the internet?
no matter who wins, everyone still feels like they ate crap?
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Atreus Venom
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:32:00 -
[29]
you forgot something in the list of things that havent happened... CCP hasnt responded to the question of game changeing items in NEX in the future... and also they havent made a decent dev blog either jesus it communication time on the rainbow express... your words mean nothing because your not CCP GTFO
º--Atreus--º
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:36:00 -
[30]
I won't try to justify the words and actions of others.
But if the answer truly was "NO" it would have been unbelievably easy for them to say it.
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Amorlune
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:41:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Amorlune on 25/06/2011 06:42:00 You must be new here to Eve, because this is just the straw the broke the camels back. Lets face it Eve is a niche game with a small player base. The reasons its niche is because the sandbox appeals to only a small amount of players. This is not to say that the sandbox is a bad concept however there are several reasons as to why this even annoys players the most lets look at the history of Eve vs CCP marketing.
1. The Dev playing the game, after many claims by alliances and corporation that there were CCP employees playing in the game and even cheating (these people where perma banned) it finally blew over when the CCP employee was busted giving out Tech 2 blue prints to everybody
2. Many broken promises to fix the game I. Factional warfare - it was promised as a way that casual players could get into the even PVP side of things, in the end it turned out to be a CCP warped fantasy where players were required to risk everything for measly results II. COSMOS agents - Agents that were meant to deliver blue prints and rewards to those who risked it - the end results the same repetative mission running except in low sec for ganking fun III. Numerous Sov Changes - You can see the CSM logs for this IV. The CSM - Brought out because of Problem 1 V. The CSM fiasco - CSM resigning due to CCP (If I can remember this correctly) VI. Level 5 Agents - Another CCP we want more players, that went wrong VII. The Invention system to replace Tech 2 lottery (intially)
As one can see CCP has a history of promising a lot and delivering a badly implemented system, and just leaving a mess behind, generally players tolerated it because they could ignore it, people DO NOT PLAY EVE BECAUSE OF CONTENT, but rather because of what others players do. Sadly there is no content in Eve to speak of.
CCP is also overcomitted and stretched, by the following decisions:
1. CCP decides to Purchase White Wolf (dunno how much they spent on this) 2. CCP decides to make Dust 514 3. CCP decides to make a WoD MMO
Dust 514 a console only MMO, might of annoyed eve players but players were promised that DUST 514 was being developed by a different group in China.
In the CCP e-mails and PDF they state lack of revenue as generated by Eve to support their new Console MMO addiction and their development of the WOD MMO as the reasons to *milk* the eve players.
With all of the above and the history of CCP constant mismanagement, players have little faith in CCPs promises as this has been broken many times before.
People say that CCP wants to kick all the players out and get new ones in, unfortunatly this is the exact type of thinking that SONY got into trouble with SWG, sacrificing existing players with broken mechanics in the hope of attracting a larger base, this never works. It does irreparable damage to the reputation of the company, as Sony found out.
Even CCP's own ex-employees are annoyed at the company (http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-CCP-Games-RVW993686.htm) ... so yes there is a lot at stake now, and this is just the straw that broke the camels back
Your so vain, you think this sig is about you, dont you. Dont you! |
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:44:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dobbs Head I think that a message has been clearly conveyed by many folks: We won't subscribe to any game with a pay-to-win system. What must be recognized is that other players might. The problem that CCP will face with establishing a pay-to-win system is the gamble involved in alienating their current player base while hoping to attract new player base. Other companies have failed with this same gamble. What must be said is that while there is evidence in the newsletter that CCP is open to sifting through many different options there is no evidence at all that they are actively pursuing the installation of a pay-to-win system.
This is precisely the problem. The existing player base has quite vehemently stated that they do not want to see pay-2-win in EVE. The hundreds of potential canceled accounts are proof of that, as are the two biggest threadnaughts in EVE history. Yet Hilmar states in his e-mail that he is prepare to ignore the players and push through with pay-2-win so long as he thinks it'll generate additional revenue and attract new players.
Star Wars Galaxies tried to expand its player base through the NGE, alienating a good portion of its dedicated player base in the process. It never recovered from that bout of stupidity, though SOE later apologized for the entire thing, and will close within a few months. CCP appears to be headed in a similar direction, pushing through changes that the dedicated player base absolutely hates, and that undermine fundamental aspects of the EVE sandbox, such as pay-2-win.
It would have taken all of ten seconds for Hilmar to post that CCP would not consider a pay-2-win model. Anyone at CCP could have done this in the past two days. Yet they have not. And Hilmar's e-mail quite plainly explains that CCP is prepared to watch its most dedicated players walk away in the name of making a quick buck.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:46:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Atreus Venom you forgot something in the list of things that havent happened... CCP hasnt responded to the question of game changeing items in NEX in the future... and also they havent made a decent dev blog either jesus it communication time on the rainbow express... your words mean nothing because your not CCP GTFO
I think that may be more along the lines of "We do not negotiate with terrorists!"
What I mean is that the newsletter with the brainstorming ideas was an internal, private newsletter. If all you have to do to force CCP to focus attention and resources on any particular topic that some specific players want addressed is to get a hold of some private documents and flash the juicier tid-bits around the internet then there is a problem. That's not how the interaction between company and player base is enacted. I don't blame them for not commenting on it, actually. It was private. It was not a development document. It was not an established plan. It was just a collection of ideas from some devs.
They were doing exactly what they were supposed to be doing, and they shouldn't have to apologize for it. Nor should they be subjected to calls for their heads to be placed on platters at the feet of some half-informed players.
If I were sitting in the main office and was informed that some people were demanding that I answer some questions based on a private non-binding newsletter that was obtained under shady circumstances, I'd probably refuse to answer too. The more hostile and insulting they become, the less likely it is that I'll answer them, but that's just me.
I'm sure that the official channels of communication between company and players can be improved. I'm equally sure that obtaining private emails and newsletters will probably be met with some icy-ness.
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Mantreh
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:48:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Alice Katsuko Yet Hilmar states in his e-mail that he is prepare to ignore the players and push through with pay-2-win so long as he thinks it'll generate additional revenue and attract new players.
I must have read a different email than you. I saw him say to watch the players closely and what they DO. Not to ignore them, but to pay attention to the many who are not here on the forums with pitchforks in hand and blindfolds on their face.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:50:00 -
[35]
For someone who wants to have a civil conversation, I will tell you that calling me a terrorist is a very bad way to get me to listen to what you have to say.
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:51:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dobbs Head "We do not negotiate with terrorists!"
I merely suspected you were a dev alt until I read this post, which confirmed it.
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BLACK-STAR
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:53:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Atreus Venom rainbow
CCP Presents: Incarna "It's going to be awesome"
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 06:53:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Londo Cebb on 25/06/2011 06:53:51
Even if CCP does want to institute a pay for advantage system in EVE, I really have no problem with that. It is their game, they can do as they like with it.
But I can not continue to support them. That is not the game I started playing.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:07:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Alice Katsuko
Originally by: Dobbs Head I think that a message has been clearly conveyed by many folks: We won't subscribe to any game with a pay-to-win system. What must be recognized is that other players might. The problem that CCP will face with establishing a pay-to-win system is the gamble involved in alienating their current player base while hoping to attract new player base. Other companies have failed with this same gamble. What must be said is that while there is evidence in the newsletter that CCP is open to sifting through many different options there is no evidence at all that they are actively pursuing the installation of a pay-to-win system.
This is precisely the problem. The existing player base has quite vehemently stated that they do not want to see pay-2-win in EVE. The hundreds of potential canceled accounts are proof of that, as are the two biggest threadnaughts in EVE history.
Quote: Yet Hilmar states in his e-mail that he is prepare to ignore the players and push through with pay-2-win so long as he thinks it'll generate additional revenue and attract new players.
I read the email and didn't see anything in there about pay-to-win items. The facts are important. Folks are reading information into an email that isn't actually present. That a major part of the problem.
Quote: Star Wars Galaxies tried to expand its player base through the NGE, alienating a good portion of its dedicated player base in the process. It never recovered from that bout of stupidity, though SOE later apologized for the entire thing, and will close within a few months. CCP appears to be headed in a similar direction, pushing through changes that the dedicated player base absolutely hates, and that undermine fundamental aspects of the EVE sandbox, such as pay-2-win.
I personally don't care to compare the two, even though I've done it in at least one other post. The changes involved in NGE were comprehensive changes including a complete revamp of the combat, class, and profession systems. They changed the essence of the game completely. You can't do that. You must create a new product and aquire a new player base otherwise you gamble with losing all your subscribers.
What's happening here is nowhere near the same thing; although, the lack of communication from CCP can most certainly be interpreted negatively, which is both unfortunate and easily remedied.
Sony lost their gamble. CCP isn't really gambling with the addition of the Aur and NeX. It's simply an addition to the current game functions. It doesn't break anything. There isn't anything which indicates that they are actively moving toward pay-to-win. They have stated very clearly that vanity items and skins will remain a part of the game for the foreseeable future.
Quote: It would have taken all of ten seconds for Hilmar to post that CCP would not consider a pay-2-win model. Anyone at CCP could have done this in the past two days. Yet they have not. And Hilmar's e-mail quite plainly explains that CCP is prepared to watch its most dedicated players walk away in the name of making a quick buck.
It's true that all it would take is a quick line stickied to the top of the forum saying "No pay to win, ever." and much of the drama would go away; however, the absence of such a post does not indicate that the opposite is defacto true.
All I'm interested in right now is to debunk the mob mentality. It isn't based in actual facts. It is based on an emotional, irrational, half-informed interpretation of something which was not intended for players' eyes...perhaps because players tend to react emotionally, irrationally, and in a half-informed manner to anything which effects their virtual lives. I am not innocent in that charge. It took me until shortly before I posted this topic to try to divest myself of the overriding mob-rage going on. There was something missing from the thought process of the many players who are demanding answers.
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Mantreh
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:12:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Dobbs Head All I'm interested in right now is to debunk the mob mentality. It isn't based in actual facts. It is based on an emotional, irrational, half-informed interpretation of something which was not intended for players' eyes...perhaps because players tend to react emotionally, irrationally, and in a half-informed manner to anything which effects their virtual lives. I am not innocent in that charge. It took me until shortly before I posted this topic to try to divest myself of the overriding mob-rage going on. There was something missing from the thought process of the many players who are demanding answers
Yay ... a level head :)
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:15:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Dobbs Head It isn't based in actual facts.
It is based on facts.
Facts that you and I place different value on, and I do not begrudge you your right to make your own decision on them.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:27:00 -
[42]
@Dobbs Head
If someone asked you a question and you could honestly say "NO" what reasons would you have for not answering that question?
(I am not trolling. I honestly would like to know.)
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:29:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Londo Cebb
Originally by: Dobbs Head It isn't based in actual facts.
It is based on facts.
Facts that you and I place different value on, and I do not begrudge you your right to make your own decision on them.
Sure, of course you're welcome to do as you please.
Facts are true.
What facts do you see? Facts without interpretation. Just the facts.
I see a leaked newsletter which contains ideas which scare a lot of people. The fact that they are in a newsletter and not a development document means that they are not at all binding on development. That is a fact. Will they influence development? I have no way of knowing, and neither does any other player.
The email contains encouragement to CCP staffers to stay the course regardless of the chatter in the channel. That is a fact. What course? Well, a lot of players have decided that the course is a course heading toward pay to win, but there is no evidence of that in the email. Is the newsletter somehow linked to this?? No. Interpreting the email in the light of the newsletter is certainly an error. There is no connection between the two other than they both are private internal items belonging to CCP. One encouraging the employees and the other a non-binding newsletter containing nothing but brainstorming ideas about different things. Now if we had a copy of a developer document that outlined the course then we could interpret the email.
Just because they were leaked within a day or so of each other does not mean that we can use the one to interpret the other. Many, many people are doing just that.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:34:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Londo Cebb @Dobbs Head
If someone asked you a question and you could honestly say "NO" what reasons would you have for not answering that question?
(I am not trolling. I honestly would like to know.)
I cannot answer for CCP's delay in answering a question coming from many players; however, it doesn't mean that an answer will not be forthcoming. It could be that they decided to wait until Monday. Perhaps some of the calls for vengeance will have quieted by then.
As for me? I would not give information to folks whose questions are based on my private correspondence. It's none of your business right now. If it involves you, I will let you know when I'm ready to, but not when you demand an answer after obtaining something which isn't rightfully yours. This has no bearing on CCP, but it certainly helps me to understand one reason why they might not be responding. If I, personally, will refuse to be forced into answering something then I'm sure that there are at least a few others in this world who would do the same.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:38:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Regan Rotineque As someone new to EvE I have spent the last bit reading through the forum....I can see so much passion from the community. This is perhaps the first rational and not emotional post I have seen regarding what is happening right now.
This is not a criticism of those who are right now fearing the end to EvE as they know it....I can see (from my limited time on EvE) how you have come to love this game and built a strong and vibrant gaming community. I can understand the fear that many have...as someone new to the game I like the fact that all in game items are coming from the community.
But I also understand the needs of a business to grow and to expand its revenue base to ensure that it can provide new products to its customer base. CCP has not done a good job explaining itself to the community...and these "leaked" documents and emails are compounding an already bad situation.
However as Dobbs has pointed out here....it may be time to take a step back. CCP has already said that they will be responding.
Lets give them a chance.
Thank you Dobbs for your post.
Read the link in my signature.. this is the history and experience with CCP.
What wrong is with Eve / CCP (by Tippia) |
Token Afrodude
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:38:00 -
[46]
Just wanted to point out something. If CCP Truly has no intentions of adding pay to win items, Why not tackle that one from the offset? Why the silence? If anything their silence has only stirred the flames even farther than needed or wanted, and to me is all the answer i need.
/my 2c A reputation for a thousand years may depend upon the conduct of a single moment. -Ernest Bramah
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Balnir Morlemaine
BlackWatch Industrial Group Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:38:00 -
[47]
I don't even care if "pay to win" items appear in the NEX, so long as: 1) They can be sold on the market for isk, and 2) There is none of this "bind on acquire" or "bind on equip" crap that is seen in other games.
If either of these things happen, I will, sadly, be leaving EVE. I really hope they don't happen. I really really do.
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:41:00 -
[48]
You can in theory use buy to win method already in EVE.
You can buy high skill point char from bazaar and you can buy ships from other players, and all these can be funded by selling plexes.
Only thing you can not buy for real money is actual player skill and that is the thing what prevents pay for win method to work in reality.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:45:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Dobbs Head It's none of your business right now. If it involves you, I will let you know when I'm ready to, but not when you demand an answer after obtaining something which isn't rightfully yours. This has no bearing on CCP, but it certainly helps me to understand one reason why they might not be responding. If I, personally, will refuse to be forced into answering something then I'm sure that there are at least a few others in this world who would do the same.
The future of this game did involve me, and you, and everyone else who pays for a subscription.
I do not demand an answer, but all it would take to keep me as a customer would be to tell me that it will never happen.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:49:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Token Afrodude Just wanted to point out something. If CCP Truly has no intentions of adding pay to win items, Why not tackle that one from the offset? Why the silence? If anything their silence has only stirred the flames even farther than needed or wanted, and to me is all the answer i need.
/my 2c
I can't say whether or not they truly have no intention of adding pay to win. No one else can either. At no point have I said "There will never be pay to win." I can't possibly know that. On the flip side, no player here can look me in the eye (...or monitor) and say that there is sufficient evidence to boldly proclaim that pay to win is coming to EvE. There isn't sufficient evidence. The facts don't support the interpretation at this time.
What I can do is back away for being irrational and look at the facts at hand. If you take away the newsletter with the brainstorming, would anyone be rage quiting? I really don't think so. So, the problem seems to revolve around the interpretation of the newsletter. How much weight does it have in the development process? Does the fact that Soundwave voiced some unpopular ideas mean that EvE is automatically headed toward pay to win? Does it mean that he's a bad guy who should be insulted frequently in exchange for his hard work? Has CCP enacted anything with this expansion which indicates pay to win is coming to EvE? Has anything been stated by any CCP staffer speaking in an official capacity to the player base about pay to win in future expansions?
There are a lot of assumptions flying around the forum, and that's unfortunate.
This revolves around the newsletter, so we should try to understand the newsletter. There is a disclaimer on it. Perhaps CCP should post the newsletter in the forums with the disclaimer in bold and italics. I'm not sure that would help, though.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:49:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Dobbs Head
Originally by: Londo Cebb @Dobbs Head
If someone asked you a question and you could honestly say "NO" what reasons would you have for not answering that question?
(I am not trolling. I honestly would like to know.)
I cannot answer for CCP's delay in answering a question coming from many players; however, it doesn't mean that an answer will not be forthcoming. It could be that they decided to wait until Monday. Perhaps some of the calls for vengeance will have quieted by then.
As for me? I would not give information to folks whose questions are based on my private correspondence. It's none of your business right now. If it involves you, I will let you know when I'm ready to, but not when you demand an answer after obtaining something which isn't rightfully yours. This has no bearing on CCP, but it certainly helps me to understand one reason why they might not be responding. If I, personally, will refuse to be forced into answering something then I'm sure that there are at least a few others in this world who would do the same.
The question for non-vanity items was on the table for weeks now. This newsletter and email only boiled it over and CCP can simply say, yes or no. This needs no decision making besides buying time and getting another month of subscription money in.
CCP said they will never offer non-vanity items in Eve. They have an internal newsletter that discusses that option. LOL?
And any question regarding a simple answer.. and it is simple is being avoided. Why?
What wrong is with Eve / CCP (by Tippia) |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 07:52:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Bad Messenger You can in theory use buy to win method already in EVE.
You can buy high skill point char from bazaar and you can buy ships from other players, and all these can be funded by selling plexes.
Only thing you can not buy for real money is actual player skill and that is the thing what prevents pay for win method to work in reality.
Ships and items for plex is not stuff out of thin air.. market and trade and scam elements are still working. One big part of the sandbox is intact and involved.
What wrong is with Eve / CCP (by Tippia) |
Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:55:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Londo Cebb on 25/06/2011 07:57:14
Nothing irrational about it.
If it is even an option I have no interest in supporting this company.
Please don't tell me how I should spend my money.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:57:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Londo Cebb
Originally by: Dobbs Head It's none of your business right now. If it involves you, I will let you know when I'm ready to, but not when you demand an answer after obtaining something which isn't rightfully yours. This has no bearing on CCP, but it certainly helps me to understand one reason why they might not be responding. If I, personally, will refuse to be forced into answering something then I'm sure that there are at least a few others in this world who would do the same.
The future of this game did involve me, and you, and everyone else who pays for a subscription.
I do not demand an answer, but all it would take to keep me as a customer would be to tell me that it will never happen.
Well, you are certainly free to quit over some dev's brainstorming about some different stuff.
I'm not quitting until I see it in game, and I still don't see any evidence that it's coming. Even if it does, if it's done well, I might stay anyway. Where the heck am I going to go? World of Warcraft? Guild Wars? WAR? Seriously? I don't think so.
EvE is brutal. It will remain brutal. That's its thing. Take that away and you've got nothing. I'm pretty sure that CCP knows that.
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Madcapnl
The Rising Stars -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.06.25 07:59:00 -
[55]
Incarna is not about adding content, Incarna is about trying to add revenue. Guess what, the players saw thru that. Now CCP is stuck with massive expenses for developing crap nobody wants, while ****ting all over their core customers. Nice going. This is seriously gonna threaten the future of CCP.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 08:00:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Londo Cebb Edited by: Londo Cebb on 25/06/2011 07:57:14
Please don't tell me how I should spend my money.
Wouldn't dream of it. You gotta go to where you want to be. If you don't want to be here, it's none of my business, really.
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Grom Starscream
Gallente Whistle While You Warp
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Posted - 2011.06.25 08:04:00 -
[57]
To the moron op: They've had plenty of chance to say unequivocally that AUR will never be a "pay to win" situation where you buy actual game impacting things using it. The only reason to avoid immediately squashing that is if you plan on actually implementing it down the road and do not want to be "on the record" as saying you never would.
Game. Set. Match.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 08:05:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Dobbs Head
Originally by: Londo Cebb
Originally by: Dobbs Head It's none of your business right now. If it involves you, I will let you know when I'm ready to, but not when you demand an answer after obtaining something which isn't rightfully yours. This has no bearing on CCP, but it certainly helps me to understand one reason why they might not be responding. If I, personally, will refuse to be forced into answering something then I'm sure that there are at least a few others in this world who would do the same.
The future of this game did involve me, and you, and everyone else who pays for a subscription.
I do not demand an answer, but all it would take to keep me as a customer would be to tell me that it will never happen.
Well, you are certainly free to quit over some dev's brainstorming about some different stuff.
I'm not quitting until I see it in game, and I still don't see any evidence that it's coming. Even if it does, if it's done well, I might stay anyway. Where the heck am I going to go? World of Warcraft? Guild Wars? WAR? Seriously? I don't think so.
EvE is brutal. It will remain brutal. That's its thing. Take that away and you've got nothing. I'm pretty sure that CCP knows that.
This is the only MMO I have ever played. I don't need anywhere to go.
I am not quitting over some dev's brainstorming. I am quitting over the fact that they will not tell me that it will not happen.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 08:13:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Grom Starscream <snipped> They've had plenty of chance to say unequivocally that AUR will never be a "pay to win" situation where you buy actual game impacting things using it. The only reason to avoid immediately squashing that is if you plan on actually implementing it down the road and do not want to be "on the record" as saying you never would.
Game. Set. Match.
To say that because they won't do "A" automatically means that only "B" is true has no basis in logic.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 08:16:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Londo Cebb
Originally by: Dobbs Head
Originally by: Londo Cebb
Originally by: Dobbs Head It's none of your business right now. If it involves you, I will let you know when I'm ready to, but not when you demand an answer after obtaining something which isn't rightfully yours. This has no bearing on CCP, but it certainly helps me to understand one reason why they might not be responding. If I, personally, will refuse to be forced into answering something then I'm sure that there are at least a few others in this world who would do the same.
The future of this game did involve me, and you, and everyone else who pays for a subscription.
I do not demand an answer, but all it would take to keep me as a customer would be to tell me that it will never happen.
Well, you are certainly free to quit over some dev's brainstorming about some different stuff.
I'm not quitting until I see it in game, and I still don't see any evidence that it's coming. Even if it does, if it's done well, I might stay anyway. Where the heck am I going to go? World of Warcraft? Guild Wars? WAR? Seriously? I don't think so.
EvE is brutal. It will remain brutal. That's its thing. Take that away and you've got nothing. I'm pretty sure that CCP knows that.
This is the only MMO I have ever played. I don't need anywhere to go.
I am not quitting over some dev's brainstorming. I am quitting over the fact that they will not tell me that it will not happen.
I'll never begrudge you your right to do that.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 08:16:00 -
[61]
It may never happen. You are right about that.
CCP may not even know for sure.
But any chance is beyond what I am willing to support with my subscription.
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Snake Scofield
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Posted - 2011.06.25 08:20:00 -
[62]
Don't even try to argue with stupid.
These are the people who are trying to overload nodes as protest.
These are the people who are posting CCP investor emails and phone numbers and encouraging contact.
These are the people posting their same malnourished arguments to as many gaming websites as possible.
These are the people who protest the banning of people like this.
Rational thought processes have gone out the window.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.06.25 08:20:00 -
[63]
I need to go to bed.
Thank you for the talk Dobbs. You are part of the community that I will truly miss when my subscription runs out.
Fly safe 07.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 14:52:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Londo Cebb I need to go to bed.
Thank you for the talk Dobbs. You are part of the community that I will truly miss when my subscription runs out.
Fly safe 07.
Thanks. Take care. 07
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 15:07:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Amorlune Edited by: Amorlune on 25/06/2011 06:42:00 You must be new here to Eve, because this is just the straw the broke the camels back. Lets face it Eve is a niche game with a small player base. The reasons its niche is because the sandbox appeals to only a small amount of players. This is not to say that the sandbox is a bad concept however there are several reasons as to why this even annoys players the most lets look at the history of Eve vs CCP marketing.
1. The Dev playing the game, after many claims by alliances and corporation that there were CCP employees playing in the game and even cheating (these people where perma banned) it finally blew over when the CCP employee was busted giving out Tech 2 blue prints to everybody
2. Many broken promises to fix the game I. Factional warfare - it was promised as a way that casual players could get into the even PVP side of things, in the end it turned out to be a CCP warped fantasy where players were required to risk everything for measly results II. COSMOS agents - Agents that were meant to deliver blue prints and rewards to those who risked it - the end results the same repetative mission running except in low sec for ganking fun III. Numerous Sov Changes - You can see the CSM logs for this IV. The CSM - Brought out because of Problem 1 V. The CSM fiasco - CSM resigning due to CCP (If I can remember this correctly) VI. Level 5 Agents - Another CCP we want more players, that went wrong VII. The Invention system to replace Tech 2 lottery (intially)
As one can see CCP has a history of promising a lot and delivering a badly implemented system, and just leaving a mess behind, generally players tolerated it because they could ignore it, people DO NOT PLAY EVE BECAUSE OF CONTENT, but rather because of what others players do. Sadly there is no content in Eve to speak of.
CCP is also overcomitted and stretched, by the following decisions:
1. CCP decides to Purchase White Wolf (dunno how much they spent on this) 2. CCP decides to make Dust 514 3. CCP decides to make a WoD MMO
Dust 514 a console only MMO, might of annoyed eve players but players were promised that DUST 514 was being developed by a different group in China.
In the CCP e-mails and PDF they state lack of revenue as generated by Eve to support their new Console MMO addiction and their development of the WOD MMO as the reasons to *milk* the eve players.
With all of the above and the history of CCP constant mismanagement, players have little faith in CCPs promises as this has been broken many times before.
People say that CCP wants to kick all the players out and get new ones in, unfortunatly this is the exact type of thinking that SONY got into trouble with SWG, sacrificing existing players with broken mechanics in the hope of attracting a larger base, this never works. It does irreparable damage to the reputation of the company, as Sony found out.
Even CCP's own ex-employees are annoyed at the company (http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-CCP-Games-RVW993686.htm) ... so yes there is a lot at stake now, and this is just the straw that broke the camels back
New? I suppose. This character was made in 2008. It was not my first character in EvE.
Certainly sounds to me like you're tired of playing this game. That's a long list of grievances, yet they're not exactly game breaking.
Look at some of the other mmo's around. Look at the list of their grievances. The list you've posted isn't bad at all. Every game is going to have some issues which annoy you. That's the way it is. This? No, this isn't bad at all.
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Rhivre
Caldari TarNec
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Posted - 2011.06.25 15:07:00 -
[66]
I completely agree with Dobbs.
Having said that, there are some very eloquent posters amongst the rabble, and those I have no problem conversing with, however, the ones who dismiss anyone who disagrees with them as "CCP Alts", "Noobs" "Cretins and Farmville players" just to mention some of the more polite ones, as well as deciding that their annoyance with CCP means they get to disrupt Jita / Dixie / Hek / Amarr instead of just not logging in, because their right to be angry trumps mine to just carry on as normal, not to mention the personal attacks against CCP employees, those, I have no time for.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.06.25 15:10:00 -
[67]
I haven't yet decided to ragequit. But it won't take much more of CCP's current antics to get that to happen.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Aeveen
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.25 15:10:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Aeveen on 25/06/2011 15:11:53 Edited by: Aeveen on 25/06/2011 15:11:16
Originally by: Dobbs Head Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 06:26:00
Originally by: Londo Cebb
Originally by: Regan Rotineque Edited by: Regan Rotineque on 25/06/2011 06:07:04 I expected to get flamed for my reply.
Please do not take my response the wrong way. I think CCP has flubbed this...and in a major way. However I like to think of myself as a reasonable and rational person.
I 100% agree with anyone who says they do not want pay-to-win items. In fact this is the only MMO i have ever played and paid. Why? because it was subscription and all things were included in the price.
Now I do not object to there being vanity items - including hanger stuff, clothing, jewelry and yes SHIPS. But these items must not provide enhancements or a leg up to any player. You want your hot pink Scorpion or your alliance logo tagged on your stuff....go ahead and pay the AUR to have it done. But there should be no performance bonuses over items that can and are built in the sandbox. And with ships I think it should be a trade in system...buy one off the regular market and trade it in. ie: get your scorpion from Regan's Sales dept. and got to AUR store and boom....you have your hot pink Hello KittyÖ version within an hour.
Cheers ~Regan~
I think most players who are quitting are fully inline with what you said.
For me personally, CCP's silence on the issue screams their intentions are to implement pay-to-win items.
Be informed and make you own decision.
Fly safe.
Huh, I got a different impression from their silence.
It really seems more like they were stunned by the sudden vehement reaction of many players. I can understand why CCP Pann would advise the staff to wait it out. It seemed like a sudden flare of hostile emotion which wasn't really based on the facts at hand but on speculation and interpretation of an internal newsletter. Hell, it wasn't even a development doc, just a freakin' newsletter!
The site that reported on it actually shaved some info from the pages, presenting the more juicier tid-bits as media folks tend to do. The original doc has a disclaimer which states clearly that this isn't the CCP roadmap to future development.
Folks were spun into a mob based on limited information. CCP decided to wait it out. They were wrong. CCP Pann apologized and asked for a parley which ended up being a 200+ page threadnaught of your standard obnoxious and half informed internet rants and one-liners with only the occasional reasonable post.
The few posts that CCP staff made were met with immediate and irrational hostility, so they quit interacting with us. Can you blame them? Is it their job to appease the great unwashed masses of angry gamers? Not really.
Their silence seems more like an act of self-defense. If everything they're posting gets met with unreasonable responses and flamed down into the ground, why bother responding? It just fuels the fire of folks who seem like they want to be angry over whatever is said.
The facts of the current situation do not justify the words and actions of many of the folks who have been front and center.
No offense but you seem to believe everything that is coming out of CCP. I realize your new and have no grasp of the company. Simply put the rest of us that have been here WAYYY longer than you know what's coming. We see the writing on the wall. CCP = SOE 2.0
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 15:16:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 15:17:11
Originally by: Aeveen Edited by: Aeveen on 25/06/2011 15:11:16
Originally by: Dobbs Head Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 06:26:00
Originally by: Londo Cebb
Originally by: Regan Rotineque Edited by: Regan Rotineque on 25/06/2011 06:07:04 I expected to get flamed for my reply.
Please do not take my response the wrong way. I think CCP has flubbed this...and in a major way. However I like to think of myself as a reasonable and rational person.
I 100% agree with anyone who says they do not want pay-to-win items. In fact this is the only MMO i have ever played and paid. Why? because it was subscription and all things were included in the price.
Now I do not object to there being vanity items - including hanger stuff, clothing, jewelry and yes SHIPS. But these items must not provide enhancements or a leg up to any player. You want your hot pink Scorpion or your alliance logo tagged on your stuff....go ahead and pay the AUR to have it done. But there should be no performance bonuses over items that can and are built in the sandbox. And with ships I think it should be a trade in system...buy one off the regular market and trade it in. ie: get your scorpion from Regan's Sales dept. and got to AUR store and boom....you have your hot pink Hello KittyÖ version within an hour.
Cheers ~Regan~
I think most players who are quitting are fully inline with what you said.
For me personally, CCP's silence on the issue screams their intentions are to implement pay-to-win items.
Be informed and make you own decision.
Fly safe.
Huh, I got a different impression from their silence.
It really seems more like they were stunned by the sudden vehement reaction of many players. I can understand why CCP Pann would advise the staff to wait it out. It seemed like a sudden flare of hostile emotion which wasn't really based on the facts at hand but on speculation and interpretation of an internal newsletter. Hell, it wasn't even a development doc, just a freakin' newsletter!
The site that reported on it actually shaved some info from the pages, presenting the more juicier tid-bits as media folks tend to do. The original doc has a disclaimer which states clearly that this isn't the CCP roadmap to future development.
Folks were spun into a mob based on limited information. CCP decided to wait it out. They were wrong. CCP Pann apologized and asked for a parley which ended up being a 200+ page threadnaught of your standard obnoxious and half informed internet rants and one-liners with only the occasional reasonable post.
The few posts that CCP staff made were met with immediate and irrational hostility, so they quit interacting with us. Can you blame them? Is it their job to appease the great unwashed masses of angry gamers? Not really.
Their silence seems more like an act of self-defense. If everything they're posting gets met with unreasonable responses and flamed down into the ground, why bother responding? It just fuels the fire of folks who seem like they want to be angry over whatever is said.
The facts of the current situation do not justify the words and actions of many of the folks who have been front and center.
No offense but you seem to believe everything that is coming out of CCP. I realize your new and have no grasp of the company. Simply put the rest of us that have been here WAYYY longer than you know what's coming. We see the writing on the wall.
Not really. Afraid that I'm more interested in stepping away from the irrational mob mentality that seemed to grip the community. Considering the objective facts at hand does not make anyone a noob.
Using ad homenim attacks does not at all reduce the strength of my argument for a level headed consideration of the facts. I don't care if you or others have been here since day one. I'd much rather prefer to make a decision based on objective reality than anything.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.25 15:19:00 -
[70]
We have been productive for years and got rejected. THe time for revolution has come.
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Kirika Misono
The Eiken Club
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Posted - 2011.06.25 15:23:00 -
[71]
This reminds me of that time that Goonswarm decided to crash the forums because their undies were in a twist.
About as mature too.
Originally by: Clementina If you bug report it, you get ignored. If you post about it on the forums, you get banned. If you exploit it, you get rich.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.25 15:24:00 -
[72]
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 25/06/2011 15:24:28 Thank you Dobbs Head for being a voice of reason amongst the cacophony. +100 internets. ~Gnosis~ |
Nuramori
Amarr Drama Llamas
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Posted - 2011.06.25 15:41:00 -
[73]
Dobbs.
While I appreciate your focused study on the validity and intent centering on the leaked fearless newsletter, you need to not only view the PDF in it's own light but in context to all that's been said over the years as well the tone and tenor expressed in the recent documents.
While technically they have not expressly stated that pay to win items are to be introduced, there is a larger issue that has ignited the ire of the masses, particularly the veterans. The use of terms such as golden goose, we make things better that reality, and $1000 jeans, they all point to disconnect from public and private viewpoints of CCP. Many aspects and decisions taken as a whole and reviewed along a timeline point to intellectually disingenuous dialogue between CCP and the user base. If CCP never said they would never do MT then fine, there's no need to be upset with the change of direction. Yes, most companies view clients as cash cattle, even if they are affectionately meaningful, but no one ever wants to actually find out the terms are actively used in direct reference. This I am sure is even more hurtful to a user base that for years thought CCP was "in touch" and understood the user base as a valuable developmentasset, not a valuable financial asset, and certainly not objectified in such a condescending manner.
So the fear of MT is only the tip of the riot. Emotion is only a portion of the riot. Disillusionment is also a part of the driving force.
As a whole though, occurring at once has brought to a head a tsunami of separate issues that are intertwined but technically separate. In the end it doesn't matter, because each day the fever rises, and those that don't go on the forums are finding out about the issues and rather than being uninvolved, are being swept up and will become part of the rising tide.
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Ein Spiegel
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Posted - 2011.06.25 15:50:00 -
[74]
This is a well written post. But I think, especially when people start throwing the NGE around, they are not quite understanding what happend IN the NGE, and why everyone that I played alongside that game packed up and left.
Let me make it clear. I and others did not like the changes the NGE brought, but that isn't what made it explode. The complete lack of any preparation, information, or remotely adequate community management response is, alongside the very suspect timing (announcement two days after Trials of Obi-Wan expansion). Words like "bait" and "switch" were thrown around quite a bit. The lack of any corporate sense of loyalty from SOE, the lack of any kind of message from LucasArts, and the textual tone and stance taken by Smed was the driving factor for everyone I spoke to across four servers, three guilds, and while just playing music in cantinas.
This, more than anything, is why I am apprehensive about CCP's current actions. In the theoretical "Hilmar" email (I can't check Twitter, and I'm not going to assume it's "confirmed"), there is mention that they expected a reaction. Within the leaked Fearless, Soundwave (who doesn't deserve villification) nails on the head that the community would not like it with phrases like "burned at the stake". The nature of this reaction SHOULD NOT BE in any way a surprise to CCP. They should already have developed contingency communications plans to respond to the forum rage. Their lack of a calm, rational response early on, perhaps as early as the original EN24 story or when gaming press started using monocle prices as a joke, makes me question if there is such planning in place. If you know that something could upset the community, contingency plans are great.
At the moment, I have to assume that this is simply a lack of such contingency plans. I do not want to imagine that they have a plan, and that they are currently pursuing it. Because SOE also had a plan.
I'm not saying that CCP needs to answer every complaint, or respond to every fire in the forums, but something that has such danger even in rumor form must be quashed, firmly and quickly, or the perception will dig a hole so deep even Johnny Cochrane (may he rest in peace) wouldn't be able to get you out. Corporations don't have to be honest in their dealings, but they do have to maintain a level of trust and communications.
It is this dwindling trust, and the current nosedive in communication with the player base, that has me worried.
Dobbs, you write good stuff, but I think people are busy focusing on the symptoms - themselves divisive among people - but ignoring the underlying cause... some people just don't trust CCP will try and maintain reasonably open communications anymore. Zulu's devblog messaging was horribad - 48 hours after the fact, they couldn't do more than a short, brusque response that contained phrasing which did not improve the general rage. If there were discussions about thorny issues, CCP should have investigated all aspects, to include how to respond when (not if) the forum "****storm" as they say got going.
The possibility exists that CCP will in fact react positively to the various issues. They may bring back a hangar. They may make a concrete statement about the current year's plan with regards to MT. They might have the mother of all dev-blogs saying they will fix things, or at least let us know why our fears were misplaced. But their current track is disheartening.
Lastly... so Dobbs is in Eve Uni? So what? I've been playing since '06, and I could probably learn something from them. Heck, they have to be more fun than FW, and there may even be the mythical "small gang" fights.
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Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:04:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Mutnin on 25/06/2011 16:06:42
Originally by: Dobbs Head After giving it some thought, I don't believe that what we're seeing is the "New EvE Enhancements".
OP, You are missing the reason people are mad. The last patch isn't the issue other than for the fact that it sucks up more resources than a hoover vacuum and introduced AUR with ridiculous pricing.
People are mad because there is no more sugar coating on hopes that CCP gives a rats ass about this game other than a way to suck as much money our of our pockets as they can. Essentially EVE is nothing more than CCP's cash cow.
People are mad at the leaked e-mail & internal document as well as the **** reply to it from CCP. CCP pretty much just told it's player base to **** off, so that's what we are doing.
There is nothing wrong with a company making money or trying to not leave extra money on the table. However CCP is just sucking up as much of our money as they can and giving nothing but pipe dreams and broken promises in return. --------------------------- How much AUR to fix Blasters? |
Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:08:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Nuramori Dobbs.
While I appreciate your focused study on the validity and intent centering on the leaked fearless newsletter, you need to not only view the PDF in it's own light but in context to all that's been said over the years as well the tone and tenor expressed in the recent documents.
While technically they have not expressly stated that pay to win items are to be introduced, there is a larger issue that has ignited the ire of the masses, particularly the veterans. The use of terms such as golden goose, we make things better that reality, and $1000 jeans, they all point to disconnect from public and private viewpoints of CCP. Many aspects and decisions taken as a whole and reviewed along a timeline point to intellectually disingenuous dialogue between CCP and the user base. If CCP never said they would never do MT then fine, there's no need to be upset with the change of direction. Yes, most companies view clients as cash cattle, even if they are affectionately meaningful, but no one ever wants to actually find out the terms are actively used in direct reference. This I am sure is even more hurtful to a user base that for years thought CCP was "in touch" and understood the user base as a valuable developmentasset, not a valuable financial asset, and certainly not objectified in such a condescending manner.
So the fear of MT is only the tip of the riot. Emotion is only a portion of the riot. Disillusionment is also a part of the driving force.
As a whole though, occurring at once has brought to a head a tsunami of separate issues that are intertwined but technically separate. In the end it doesn't matter, because each day the fever rises, and those that don't go on the forums are finding out about the issues and rather than being uninvolved, are being swept up and will become part of the rising tide.
I understand.
What is see is that there is a perception of betrayal. It is that very perception and all the emotions which stem from it which have cascaded into a implacable rage. Nothing can be said to calm some folks down or restore trust, and yet the facts at hand do not justify the rage. If a dev posted a clear statement about pay to win, would that change anything? I submit to you that it wouldn't. Folks have entered a state of mind where mistrust and anger reign supreme.
It is the interpretation, the impression, of what has been experienced and presented which have led to this. It is clear that the interpretation of the facts at hand is faulty. The impression is unsound. It has led to unnecessary hostility. It has led to unnecessary and foolish loss.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:17:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 16:18:04
Originally by: Mutnin Edited by: Mutnin on 25/06/2011 16:06:42
Originally by: Dobbs Head After giving it some thought, I don't believe that what we're seeing is the "New EvE Enhancements".
OP, You are missing the reason people are mad. The last patch isn't the issue other than for the fact that it sucks up more resources than a hoover vacuum and introduced AUR with ridiculous pricing.
People are mad because there is no more sugar coating on hopes that CCP gives a rats ass about this game other than a way to suck as much money our of our pockets as they can. Essentially EVE is nothing more than CCP's cash cow.
People are mad at the leaked e-mail & internal document as well as the **** reply to it from CCP. CCP pretty much just told it's player base to **** off, so that's what we are doing.
There is nothing wrong with a company making money or trying to not leave extra money on the table. However CCP is just sucking up as much of our money as they can and giving nothing but pipe dreams and broken promises in return.
I am not missing the reason why people are angry. I've addressed the newsletter and email in previous posts in this thread. It is a faulty interpretation of the facts at hand which have led to an irrational state of mind for many players. The facts at hand do not justify what is currently occurring.
I wish to restate that it is an error to interpret the email in light of the brainstorming ideas presented in the private newsletter. The only thing they have in common is that they are both private correspondence from CCP meant for internal use. Some players are giving this newsletter the same weight and consideration as a development document. The problem is that it's not. It is a collection of ideas that comes with a disclaimer at the top.
The email is nothing more than encouragement to a man's employees. To bandy about the interpretation that the course referred to in the email is related to the ideas from an older newsletter is a mistake.
There are objective facts which are being given a meaning which they do not possess if they are considered objectively. Unfortunately, many folks have lost the ability to be objective.
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Whiteknight03
Theoretical Research
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:22:00 -
[78]
I think the dev's can do several things to restore some of that trust. 1.) Bringing back hangar view, and promising it will stay that way. 2.) Giving us a clear answer on MT. At the moment, the only thing the dev blog has stirred up is more rage, since clearly states that ridiculous prices are the point and people are supposed to feel "special" with their monocles.
I didn't particularly care about Aurum, or hangar view being gone (I do like the CQ), but to me, the letter called out the community. It clearly expected forum rage, but showed the CCP banked on the community doing nothing real about it. If you will, it's a test on what can be forced down our throats.
In my opinion, something like this demands a response. If we wait until items that matter are introduced for Aurum, then CCP will have gotten the message that the player base can be pushed around at will. If we take a stand now, we might be able to avert that bad ending for eve.
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Whiteknight03
Theoretical Research
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:25:00 -
[79]
@Dobbs I don't believe they wouldn't simply provide the context for the documents if that was the case. So far, the only communication we've gotten is from a PR guy asking us to calm down, and from Soundwave saying "Won't you feel special having expensive stuff".
If both were not true, an early denial would have at least somewhat slowed this ****storm. The only context in which CCP's response to this makes sense is if they intend to latter introduce more RMT, and do not wish to be called out on previous, recent lying.
Of course, this is only my opinion, but do you see a reasonable alternative explanation for their current responses?
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:35:00 -
[80]
Consider also the fact that some people are angry at Soundwave for thinking and voicing opinions and ideas. They are calling for his head on a platter because he said things which some don't like. Not only is it his job to think about things it is his right to speak his mind, most especially when it was his employer who requested his and other staffers' ideas. He had the obligation to respond; therefore, he had the right to speak his mind. Rights stem from obligations.
Not liking someone's ideas is one thing. Calling for his termination and defaming his character because he voiced his ideas when he was asked to is quite another.
The contempt with which he and the others have been treated is unwarranted. No, not just unwarranted, it is despicable.
The irrationality moved very quickly into hating another man's freedom and calling for punishment when he voiced unpopular ideas. I find that disturbing.
The facts at hand do not support this kind of behavior.
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Malice Redeemer
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:38:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Dobbs Head Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 16:18:04
Originally by: Mutnin Edited by: Mutnin on 25/06/2011 16:06:42
Originally by: Dobbs Head After giving it some thought, I don't believe that what we're seeing is the "New EvE Enhancements".
OP, You are missing the reason people are mad. The last patch isn't the issue other than for the fact that it sucks up more resources than a hoover vacuum and introduced AUR with ridiculous pricing.
People are mad because there is no more sugar coating on hopes that CCP gives a rats ass about this game other than a way to suck as much money our of our pockets as they can. Essentially EVE is nothing more than CCP's cash cow.
People are mad at the leaked e-mail & internal document as well as the **** reply to it from CCP. CCP pretty much just told it's player base to **** off, so that's what we are doing.
There is nothing wrong with a company making money or trying to not leave extra money on the table. However CCP is just sucking up as much of our money as they can and giving nothing but pipe dreams and broken promises in return.
I am not missing the reason why people are angry. I've addressed the newsletter and email in previous posts in this thread. It is a faulty interpretation of the facts at hand which have led to an irrational state of mind for many players. The facts at hand do not justify what is currently occurring.
I wish to restate that it is an error to interpret the email in light of the brainstorming ideas presented in the private newsletter. The only thing they have in common is that they are both private correspondence from CCP meant for internal use. Some players are giving this newsletter the same weight and consideration as a development document. The problem is that it's not. It is a collection of ideas that comes with a disclaimer at the top.
The email is nothing more than encouragement to a man's employees. To bandy about the interpretation that the course referred to in the email is related to the ideas from an older newsletter is a mistake.
There are objective facts which are being given a meaning which they do not possess if they are considered objectively. Unfortunately, many folks have lost the ability to be objective.
Did you forget about the part where he told them to ignore what we say?
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:39:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Whiteknight03 @Dobbs I don't believe they wouldn't simply provide the context for the documents if that was the case.
,,,
If both were not true, an early denial would have at least somewhat slowed this ****storm. The only context in which CCP's response to this makes sense is if they intend to latter introduce more RMT, and do not wish to be called out on previous, recent lying.
You're certainly free to interpret the facts in that manner, but it isn't objective.
They are not required to provide any context for private documents. Yes, it would be nice if they expounded on things a bit now that they are public, but I can understand why they wouldn't.
CCP saw the storm and advised them to wait for it to calm down before responding. This does not automatically mean that some of the players' worse case scenarios are true. It simply means that they did not wish to engage until some of the nerd rage had calmed a bit. That's certainly understandable.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:42:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 16:42:57
Originally by: Malice Redeemer
Did you forget about the part where he told them to ignore what we say?
Did you forget that he told them explicitly to watch what we do? You can't take that one part about ignoring what we say and isolate it. It leads to more faulty interpretation of the facts. He didn't say "ignore the players. Period." He said, "ignore what they say, but watch what they do."
Actions speak louder than words. At this point, ignoring all the irrational banter on the forums is good advice. Watch what players do. That makes sense to me.
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Postradamus
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:42:00 -
[84]
OP needs a reality check
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Logit Probit
QQ Continuum
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:44:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Postradamus OP needs a reality check
OP needs a virtual reality check ---
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:45:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Postradamus OP needs a reality check
The reality check came when I saw what folks were saying and doing. I don't want any part of a mob mentality.
You are free to do as you wish, but I'm taking a step back from the emotional intensity. I want objectivity, not faulty interpretation and nerd rage.
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Nuramori
Amarr Drama Llamas
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:55:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Nuramori on 25/06/2011 16:59:10 Dobbs, before I continue I want to thank you for probably the first opportunity to have a less than facetious discussion on the forums. It's a diamond in a mountain.
I disagree that nothing can be done. The fact communication has been painfully lacking allows for dissent and speculation to ravage truth. In such a vacuum conjecture becomes the only voice of reason. This could and still can be salvaged with aggressive dialogue or at least some meaningful statement.
Without that the truth will be written by those very fears taking over.
Yes I believe the worst, and in hopes of action and doing something I cancelled my yearly subscriptions. They will see that as a viable metric, in a concise manner. I and CCP have time until the time runs out to see if CCp's vision and my expectations mesh.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:56:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Snake Scofield Don't even try to argue with stupid.
These are the people who are trying to overload nodes as protest.
These are the people who are posting CCP investor emails and phone numbers and encouraging contact.
These are the people posting their same malnourished arguments to as many gaming websites as possible.
These are the people who protest the banning of people like this.
Rational thought processes have gone out the window.
I'm in complete agreement. There may be a few folks who got wrapped up in the mob without quite realizing that's what happened to them. It would be unfortunate if they rage quite simply because others are rage quitting.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:59:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 17:00:02
Originally by: Nuramori Dobbs, before I continue I want to thank you for probably the first opportunity to have a less than facetious discussion on the forums. It's a diamond in a mountain.
I disagree that nothing can be done. The fact communication has been painfully lacking allows for dissent and speculation to ravage truth. In such a vacuum conjecture becomes the only voice of reason. This could and still can be salvaged with aggressive dialogue or at least some meaningful statement.
Without that the truth will be written by those very fears taking over.
Yes I believe the worst, and in hopes of action and doing meaning something I cancelled my yearly subscriptions. They will see that ad a fact, in a concise manner. I and CCP have time until the time runs out to see if CCp's vision and my expectations mesh.
Oh yes, I think I can agree with the impression of CCP's failure to engage on the topic. Unfortunately, the vacuum has indeed led to all sorts of speculation.
I don't really think that their lack of engagement should be viewed as anything other than them regrouping and giving a little more time for things to spin down a bit. That's my opinion, so it most certainly could be wrong.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:11:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Ein Spiegel This is a well written post. But I think, especially when people start throwing the NGE around, they are not quite understanding what happend IN the NGE, and why everyone that I played alongside that game packed up and left.
Let me make it clear. I and others did not like the changes the NGE brought, but that isn't what made it explode. The complete lack of any preparation, information, or remotely adequate community management response is, alongside the very suspect timing (announcement two days after Trials of Obi-Wan expansion). Words like "bait" and "switch" were thrown around quite a bit. The lack of any corporate sense of loyalty from SOE, the lack of any kind of message from LucasArts, and the textual tone and stance taken by Smed was the driving factor for everyone I spoke to across four servers, three guilds, and while just playing music in cantinas.
This, more than anything, is why I am apprehensive about CCP's current actions. In the theoretical "Hilmar" email (I can't check Twitter, and I'm not going to assume it's "confirmed"), there is mention that they expected a reaction. Within the leaked Fearless, Soundwave (who doesn't deserve villification) nails on the head that the community would not like it with phrases like "burned at the stake". The nature of this reaction SHOULD NOT BE in any way a surprise to CCP. They should already have developed contingency communications plans to respond to the forum rage. Their lack of a calm, rational response early on, perhaps as early as the original EN24 story or when gaming press started using monocle prices as a joke, makes me question if there is such planning in place. If you know that something could upset the community, contingency plans are great.
At the moment, I have to assume that this is simply a lack of such contingency plans. I do not want to imagine that they have a plan, and that they are currently pursuing it. Because SOE also had a plan.
I'm not saying that CCP needs to answer every complaint, or respond to every fire in the forums, but something that has such danger even in rumor form must be quashed, firmly and quickly, or the perception will dig a hole so deep even Johnny Cochrane (may he rest in peace) wouldn't be able to get you out. Corporations don't have to be honest in their dealings, but they do have to maintain a level of trust and communications.
It is this dwindling trust, and the current nosedive in communication with the player base, that has me worried.
Dobbs, you write good stuff, but I think people are busy focusing on the symptoms - themselves divisive among people - but ignoring the underlying cause... some people just don't trust CCP will try and maintain reasonably open communications anymore. Zulu's devblog messaging was horribad - 48 hours after the fact, they couldn't do more than a short, brusque response that contained phrasing which did not improve the general rage. If there were discussions about thorny issues, CCP should have investigated all aspects, to include how to respond when (not if) the forum "****storm" as they say got going.
The possibility exists that CCP will in fact react positively to the various issues. They may bring back a hangar. They may make a concrete statement about the current year's plan with regards to MT. They might have the mother of all dev-blogs saying they will fix things, or at least let us know why our fears were misplaced. But their current track is disheartening.
Lastly... so Dobbs is in Eve Uni? So what? I've been playing since '06, and I could probably learn something from them. Heck, they have to be more fun than FW, and there may even be the mythical "small gang" fights.
Yes, I think that this was very well put, thank you.
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John Zenrael
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:27:00 -
[91]
Great thread, with some sensible discussion and sorely needed concession between both sides. I hope it continues in this way...
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Nuramori
Amarr Drama Llamas
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:29:00 -
[92]
Agreed, time will tell. That is why I haven't biomassed yet ;)
In the end, regardless which side of the fence you are on about the recent events, one thing stands clear, the player base is passionate about the game, and is a moving force. Many will be watching how this plays out, both as a player as well as a company that is looking to develop brand power in a game. I do think that CCP is on a fine edge and making a wrong decision about how to handle it can have a lasting influence on their bottom line as well as reputation.
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Kirika Misono
The Eiken Club
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:40:00 -
[93]
I think that part of the problem with this whole thing is that older players see this as a possible way for new players to catch up with us, meaning that being a 7 year player will no longer be a 'I win' button more times then not.
Personally, I think this whole thing is blowing way beyond perportion. People keep ranting how it's like with T20, but there's a big difference between shelling out $400 a frigate and a GM magicking items into your hanger.
And, point of fact, I'm a 7+ year player myself, so I, unlike a lot of people here, actually remember T20 and the ore move and the POS debacle. And bluntly this is not even a blip on those events radar.
Hell, items were magicked into the game for years with the POS bug. I didn't notice the markets collapse and players leave en mass then, I don't see it happening now.
Originally by: Clementina If you bug report it, you get ignored. If you post about it on the forums, you get banned. If you exploit it, you get rich.
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Nuramori
Amarr Drama Llamas
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:49:00 -
[94]
While this is getting a bit into the speculation, I think that SP for AUra would not simply unbalance the game, but change the dynamic. Partly it affects the vets - they spent their time building a character's skills up, invested the time - taht's ultimately what Eve is about, time.
That time has more meaning than investment, it also relates to a knowledge base. It's irritating enough bringing in a guy that says he has 80million Sp only to find out its a bought character and doesn't know the first thing about proper fitting for pvp, what battle comms means, or how to operate a jump bridge. It lowers the quality of the game because until recently, it was a fair assumption SP equates to experience, and that means a common ground that allows for the game to be socially fun.
So, there's a lot that's tied into the ability to buy yourself into a top tier position, be it skills or a capable ship. Maybe not directly evident until you look at the "butterfly" effect of people accessing portions of eve without having learned the value of what they attained.
If I could buy my blackbelt with cash, would it make me a black belt? would it devalue the meaning and quality of that belt? To whom? me? others? the public? yes on all counts.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 18:12:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 18:17:52 Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 18:15:57 Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 18:14:24 Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 18:13:03
Originally by: Nuramori While this is getting a bit into the speculation, I think that SP for AUra would not simply unbalance the game, but change the dynamic. Partly it affects the vets - they spent their time building a character's skills up, invested the time - taht's ultimately what Eve is about, time.
That time has more meaning than investment, it also relates to a knowledge base. It's irritating enough bringing in a guy that says he has 80million Sp only to find out its a bought character and doesn't know the first thing about proper fitting for pvp, what battle comms means, or how to operate a jump bridge. It lowers the quality of the game because until recently, it was a fair assumption SP equates to experience, and that means a common ground that allows for the game to be socially fun.
So, there's a lot that's tied into the ability to buy yourself into a top tier position, be it skills or a capable ship. Maybe not directly evident until you look at the "butterfly" effect of people accessing portions of eve without having learned the value of what they attained.
If I could buy my blackbelt with cash, would it make me a black belt? would it devalue the meaning and quality of that belt? To whom? me? others? the public? yes on all counts.
This is perhaps the best argument against sp for aur that I've heard. It makes sense to me, and I can agree with it.
On the other hand, I can also say that it wouldn't bother me at all to see a limited sp for unsubs who are returning to the game. It would have to be limited, though. There is a very real seniority in EvE, and that should be maintained; however, I have no problem with allowing a player to recoup perhaps 50% or 25% of the sp's that he would've had if he had remained active. Being able to purchase 100% of the sp's that you would've had does not make any sense to me at all.
If I'm forced to unsub due to financial or personal real life issues, the possibility of being able to return one day and recoup at least a fraction of what I would've had if I had been able to remain active would be a very nice option. There would have to be very real limits to this, though. Only usable on previously active accounts and only up to a percentage of what an active account would've received. In this way it retains the superiority of the senior players while at the same time allows former players to return with at least a little benefit.
But I'm not arguing for either position, really. I can say that I find both options viable. Absolutely no sp for aur makes sense from a certain perspective. Fractional sp for returning players does make sense from a different perspective. Neither one is a deal breaker for me. Again, just to be clear, at no point would I support anyone being able to purchase skill points in any situation other than a returning player recouping a portion of the skill points that he would've had, and I can understand and appreciate the position of those who stand firmly against it. Pure opinion on my part.
Edits for typos :-P
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E
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Posted - 2011.06.25 18:12:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 25/06/2011 18:14:09
Originally by: Dobbs Head Perhaps we could benefit from taking a step back and looking at some basic facts rather than snowballing an unsub cascade over emotional speculation.
What has actually happened:
-Aur was instituted for a very few vanity items -Lost the hangar -Gained an avatar -Gained a good Agent finder -Internal newsletter of mandated employee brainstorming was made public -Possibly authentic private email from a higher up providing encouragement to his employees was made public
What has not happened:
-pay to win items introduced -mandatory use of the Aur
Have to agree with the OP here, people are a slight bit overreacting. I'm not cancelling my accounts due to speculating on what might or might not happen.
The moment I see MT for in-game advantage I'm leaving, but I dont believe that is the plan, the current ludicrous price structure doesnt indicate it and I cant see these sorts of schemes work for a niche market like EVE anyway. After all that has failed horribly for games with a much larger player base already numerous times.
I might however change my yearly subscriptions to quarterly ones or even monthly ones in case I am wrong to ensure an easy and quick exit
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Nuramori
Amarr Drama Llamas
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Posted - 2011.06.25 18:31:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Dobbs Head Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 18:17:52 ... But I'm not arguing for either position, really. I can say that I find both options viable. Absolutely no sp for aur makes sense from a certain perspective. Fractional sp for returning players does make sense from a different perspective. Neither one is a deal breaker for me. Again, just to be clear, at no point would I support anyone being able to purchase skill points in any situation other than a returning player recouping a portion of the skill points that he would've had, and I can understand and appreciate the position of those who stand firmly against it....
Ok, draft the contract, I agree with you on enough points to sign :P
See folks, see CCP, dialogue can result in a win/win.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 18:36:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 18:36:56
Originally by: Nuramori
Originally by: Dobbs Head Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 18:17:52 ... But I'm not arguing for either position, really. I can say that I find both options viable. Absolutely no sp for aur makes sense from a certain perspective. Fractional sp for returning players does make sense from a different perspective. Neither one is a deal breaker for me. Again, just to be clear, at no point would I support anyone being able to purchase skill points in any situation other than a returning player recouping a portion of the skill points that he would've had, and I can understand and appreciate the position of those who stand firmly against it....
Ok, draft the contract, I agree with you on enough points to sign :P
See folks, see CCP, dialogue can result in a win/win.
I'm glad you quoted me. That last typo edit I did resulted in an unfortunate backspace and I lost the last half of the post through inattention :-P
I think the other part that was lost was something about me being willing to support a very limited sp (50% to 25% or something) for previously active accounts.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.06.25 18:41:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Dobbs Head Perhaps we could benefit from taking a step back and looking at some basic facts rather than snowballing an unsub cascade over emotional speculation.
What has actually happened:
-Aur was instituted for a very few vanity items -Lost the hangar -Gained an avatar -Gained a good Agent finder -Internal newsletter of mandated employee brainstorming was made public -Possibly authentic private email from a higher up providing encouragement to his employees was made public
What has not happened:
-pay to win items introduced -mandatory use of the Aur
You are only good at observing, but bad at thinking about what it is you see.
All the new 3D graphics do not add to the game. Only the new weapon firing adds a bit of visual candy, the animated turrets in the info are already too much. Ship hulls like that of the Obelisk have become so old that it is not funny any longer when you get to see all those tiny turrets animated. Items like clothing and monocle do not add any new mechanics to the game play, but are vanity items. And they are items of vanity, because they were purposely designed to be such items.
Why on earth do we need this? We do not need it! It has also increased the hardware requirements.
What has not happened is the ton of stuff that got listed in the assembly hall, in features & ideas discussion, in the 1000 papercuts project. The little stuff. The extended downtime also went again beyond the expected time and took practically an entire day. And with it some more bugs and likely as many as got fixed.
The Captain's Quarter has something of a souvenir shop like one next to the pyramids or some other great monument. Only the builder of this monument are still alive, they just believe that they now should build souvenir shops. It is as if the gods are drunk. --
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 18:45:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 18:45:07
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Dobbs Head Perhaps we could benefit from taking a step back and looking at some basic facts rather than snowballing an unsub cascade over emotional speculation.
What has actually happened:
-Aur was instituted for a very few vanity items -Lost the hangar -Gained an avatar -Gained a good Agent finder -Internal newsletter of mandated employee brainstorming was made public -Possibly authentic private email from a higher up providing encouragement to his employees was made public
What has not happened:
-pay to win items introduced -mandatory use of the Aur
You are only good at observing, but bad at thinking about what it is you see.
All the new 3D graphics do not add to the game. Only the new weapon firing adds a bit of visual candy, the animated turrets in the info are already too much. Ship hulls like that of the Obelisk have become so old that it is not funny any longer when you get to see all those tiny turrets animated. Items like clothing and monocle do not add any new mechanics to the game play, but are vanity items. And they are items of vanity, because they were purposely designed to be such items.
Why on earth do we need this? We do not need it! It has also increased the hardware requirements.
What has not happened is the ton of stuff that got listed in the assembly hall, in features & ideas discussion, in the 1000 papercuts project. The little stuff. The extended downtime also went again beyond the expected time and took practically an entire day. And with it some more bugs and likely as many as got fixed.
The Captain's Quarter has something of a souvenir shop like one next to the pyramids or some other great monument. Only the builder of this monument are still alive, they just believe that they now should build souvenir shops. It is as if the gods are drunk.
You're certainly welcome to your opinion about my ability to think.
I refuse to continue with speculation and conjecture. The faulty interpretation of limited information has resulted in an emotional outburst which I'd rather not be a part of anymore.
On Monday, things may look very different. We'll see.
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larry hotter bigpants
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Posted - 2011.06.25 18:46:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 25/06/2011 18:14:09
Originally by: Dobbs Head Perhaps we could benefit from taking a step back and looking at some basic facts rather than snowballing an unsub cascade over emotional speculation.
What has actually happened:
-Aur was instituted for a very few vanity items -Lost the hangar -Gained an avatar -Gained a good Agent finder -Internal newsletter of mandated employee brainstorming was made public -Possibly authentic private email from a higher up providing encouragement to his employees was made public
What has not happened:
-pay to win items introduced -mandatory use of the Aur
Have to agree with the OP here, people are a slight bit overreacting. I'm not cancelling my accounts due to speculating on what might or might not happen.
The moment I see MT for in-game advantage I'm leaving, but I dont believe that is the plan, the current ludicrous price structure doesnt indicate it and I cant see these sorts of schemes work for a niche market like EVE anyway. After all that has failed horribly for games with a much larger player base already numerous times.
I might however change my yearly subscriptions to quarterly ones or even monthly ones in case I am wrong to ensure an easy and quick exit
Can you not read? You type well enough but you say stupid things that anyone whose done any reading and independent learning already knows the answer to.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 18:48:00 -
[102]
Egh, here come the ad hominem arguments.
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Nuramori
Amarr Drama Llamas
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Posted - 2011.06.25 19:22:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Dobbs Head Egh, here come the ad hominem arguments.
It was fun while it lasted. As I said, a diamond.
Good having a meaningful debate. Looks like we're returning to the three stooges audition.
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Rona Trudko
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Posted - 2011.06.25 19:23:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Rona Trudko on 25/06/2011 19:24:33 Dobbs, thank you for voicing a dissenting opinion on the issue.
But the fact is, this is your opinion compared to the opinion of others. Your standpoint is not necessarily more logical.
The facts have been laid out for all to see. It's true we don't KNOW what will happen next, but people invest too much time and money into EVE to be content with the idea that MAYBE it will still be around (in its current form) six months from now. You are saying you're ok with the uncertainty, and you don't mind CCP discussing the possibility of doing something which it promised not to. And in fact, during that discussion, the notion of that promise never even came up, they clearly don't consider their word to be binding. The people who are quitting can't deal with the possibility of change, and the feeling of betrayal and disdain that they're getting from CCP's bungled PR efforts.
You can't just argue those emotions don't exist, or are illegitimate.
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Jacoba Stalker
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Posted - 2011.06.25 19:25:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Londo Cebb I won't try to justify the words and actions of others.
But if the answer truly was "NO" it would have been unbelievably easy for them to say it.
and THAT is the entire point.
They either say "NO" and then drop any future plans to make P2W the norm
Or they prove that they are liars, say "NO" and put P2W in anyway.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2011.06.25 19:28:00 -
[106]
Where there's smoke, there's fire.
Smell that? Time to go.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 19:42:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Rona Trudko Edited by: Rona Trudko on 25/06/2011 19:24:33
You can't just argue those emotions don't exist, or are illegitimate.
I'm certainly not arguing that emotions don't exist. I'm stating very clearly that the objective facts do not support this mob rage that's going on. Folks are interpreting partial information in a faulty manner which is resulting in an emotional outburst. It isn't that being angry is wrong. There are times where anger is appropriate, but this isn't one of those time. The information which we have is not sufficient for me to adopt the prevailing mob mentality. It isn't sufficient for me to insult and threaten any CCP staffer. It most certainly isn't sufficient for me to cancel my accounts.
Others are welcome to do as they please, but I will be sure to speak up about the need to remain objective. When the objective facts match a betrayal of the essence of the game, then perhaps it will be time to leave...or stay and see how their plans work out. It's clear that if you remove the interpretations of many people you'll be left with something that's really not bad at all. My only complaint at the moment is that I would like to see a "classic hangar view" option, and I've made that suggestion in two of the threads in the suggestions forum.
Now, I can understand a certain amount of apprehension surrounding the newsletter, but apprehension is a far cry from mob rage. The cure for this situation is communication. It has to be done with players who are emotionally capable of communicating, though. For the time being, the vocally hostile folks don't fit into that category.
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Rona Trudko
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Posted - 2011.06.25 19:51:00 -
[108]
Agreed that communication is the answer. I don't think it's too late for CCP to sort this all out. I just think if it was that easy, they would have done it by now.
Clearly, they must be at least considering MT for in-game advantage, or they would have stopped this by now. It's not a case of, as you said earlier, "Not A, so automatically B." It's a case of "A is the obvious answer, but they haven't taken it, and B is the only logical reason why." If you have another reason that doesn't involve an entire company being "shocked into silence" I'm open to it. It's their job to communicate, I can't believe they just clam up at the first sign of confrontation (which only made the confrontation escalate)
Is CCP immoral per se? No, they're a corporation, the need to make money. However, MTs bad game design, seeing as EVE is at its core a PvP game, so you'd be paying for advantage over other players. MTs work best in PvE games where buying advantages is more or less beneficial to everyone. Second, it goes against what CCP has previously stated. If they are are considering going back on their word, that merits some anger.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 20:06:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Rona Trudko Agreed that communication is the answer. I don't think it's too late for CCP to sort this all out. I just think if it was that easy, they would have done it by now.
Clearly, they must be at least considering MT for in-game advantage, or they would have stopped this by now. It's not a case of, as you said earlier, "Not A, so automatically B." It's a case of "A is the obvious answer, but they haven't taken it, and B is the only logical reason why." If you have another reason that doesn't involve an entire company being "shocked into silence" I'm open to it. It's their job to communicate, I can't believe they just clam up at the first sign of confrontation (which only made the confrontation escalate)
Is CCP immoral per se? No, they're a corporation, the need to make money. However, MTs bad game design, seeing as EVE is at its core a PvP game, so you'd be paying for advantage over other players. MTs work best in PvE games where buying advantages is more or less beneficial to everyone. Second, it goes against what CCP has previously stated. If they are are considering going back on their word, that merits some anger.
I do not have the ability to answer for CCP, I'm afraid. I reject the idea that there is only one possible reason that they would not make a statement immediately. That is pure speculation. I'm not saying that it isn't possible that it could in fact be the reason why they aren't communicating right now. It is possible. It is also possible that they are planning to introduce pay to win. I don't know for sure and neither do you or any other player.
The current evidence, however, is insufficient to say so with any real level of certainty. So, I'll continue to step away from conjecture and faulty interpretations of partial information. I'll reserve my judgement for when an official statement is made, and then, after all attempts at dialogue have failed, I will vote with my wallet like an adult...and my vote may end up being a vote of confidence if their plans look good.
This whole rage thing is a very interesting to watch unfold.
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Theocrates
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Posted - 2011.06.25 20:15:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Londo Cebb I won't try to justify the words and actions of others.
But if the answer truly was "NO" it would have been unbelievably easy for them to say it.
And it would not have been believed. Then when CCP asks what type of proof would suffice the emo ragers would have continued their BS and outrageous demands including things like dismissal of personnel, alteration of the eula in such a way as to leave the company exposed to risk, at which point they have absolutely surrendered all control to spastic emo ragers. At that point the shareholders would have legal grounds for dismissing the board for failure to see to the shareholders best interests.
Get this clear, CCP will act in its best interests and the interests of its shareholders. The day the majority of players want to buy titans in the Nex they will be for sale. Your choice is to play until then or quit now. Pick one.
***By coffee alone I set my mind in motion, by the beans of Java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, by coffee alone I set my mind in motion.*** |
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 20:36:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 25/06/2011 20:37:24 I will say that I'm completely against a DDO style of micro-transactions. Played that game very shortly a couple years ago just to see if it had the same magic of the pen and paper version I remember from when I was a kid.
Their micro-transaction system drove me away. I don't ever want to feel like I MUST buy something with my credit card in order to be competitive or even just to function at an average level.
One other poster stated that the sale of sp's for aur would change the dynamic of the game. I believe that micro-transactions of the pay-to-win variety absolutely would change the dynamic of the game and ultimately drive me (and perhaps many others) away. Having a button on the screen that says "Buy Moar Stuff or Fail" is not something that I find compelling. If anything, it would break the immersion. I like immersion.
Having said that, I know that there are players who will accept micro-transactions of that type and use them frequently. After all, DDO still exists; although, it had to merge its 14 servers down to 5.
But like I said, the current objective facts do not indicate that a pay-to-win micro-transaction system is coming to EvE.
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Rona Trudko
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Posted - 2011.06.25 21:04:00 -
[112]
If CCP could say what you're saying with a straight face, I might believe them. Fact is, they have not. You're doing a better job defending them than they have done for themselves. I think you're going out on a limb for a company that will prove you wrong in the end. We will see on Monday, I think.
By the way, I did play DDO as well, and didn't mind their microtransactions. For one, the transactions were truly on a micro scale. Two, the advantages you could buy helped you progress and benefited your group, rather than giving you advantages over other players. Three, there was a subscription option that gave you nearly all the benefits of MTs if youd rather pay monthly.
I may actually go back to DDO after this.
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John Turbefield 4CEO
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Posted - 2011.06.25 21:05:00 -
[113]
Now is the time to make a principled stand!
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Linar Mardolak
Minmatar Phlogiston Absorption
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Posted - 2011.06.25 21:08:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Katrina Cortez Edited by: Katrina Cortez on 25/06/2011 05:46:24 There is a bigger issue here... Hilmar was right about one thing, the world is watching. Every game manufacturer is watching to see if CCP gets away with charging prices for virtual items in excess of their real world counterpart. If this works, then this will be the new gaming model and every game you play from now on will be like it.
Yes. That's the other half of the puzzle. Players and ordinary people are saying "WTF, shirts for more than the real versions?" However, a certain group of marketers and gaming industry people are looking at this and rubbing their hands in glee.
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Caelestis Starcaller
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Posted - 2011.06.25 21:08:00 -
[115]
Thank you OP for stating the situation as it actually is.
+1
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General Xenophon
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Posted - 2011.06.25 21:10:00 -
[116]
Edited by: General Xenophon on 25/06/2011 21:13:49 Edited by: General Xenophon on 25/06/2011 21:11:58
Originally by: Regan Rotineque As someone new to EvE I have spent the last bit reading through the forum....I can see so much passion from the community. This is perhaps the first rational and not emotional post I have seen regarding what is happening right now.
This is not a criticism of those who are right now fearing the end to EvE as they know it....I can see (from my limited time on EvE) how you have come to love this game and built a strong and vibrant gaming community. I can understand the fear that many have...as someone new to the game I like the fact that all in game items are coming from the community.
But I also understand the needs of a business to grow and to expand its revenue base to ensure that it can provide new products to its customer base. CCP has not done a good job explaining itself to the community...and these "leaked" documents and emails are compounding an already bad situation.
However as Dobbs has pointed out here....it may be time to take a step back. CCP has already said that they will be responding.
Lets give them a chance.
Thank you Dobbs for your post.
So when you say you've 'read the forums', what forums have you read?
CCP has responded:
CCP Dev blog response to players concerns Hillmars company email
Among many other snide remarks made by CCP staff in the forums. Anyone here can link those.
Any steps forward or back fall on the part of CCP now. And others are right, what they do to Eve will very likely affect other games in the MMO world as well.
After 200 pages of players saying they hate these changes I don't know what you pro-incarna folks hope to add by supporting CCP's clear 'fk you' message to the player base. If you allow this change to take place in Eve, a change which WILL affect other MMO strategies, you are complicit in destroying the Pay to Play style of MMO's.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 21:23:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Rona Trudko If CCP could say what you're saying with a straight face, I might believe them. Fact is, they have not. You're doing a better job defending them than they have done for themselves. I think you're going out on a limb for a company that will prove you wrong in the end. We will see on Monday, I think. ...
That's entirely possible.
Yeah, looking forward to Monday.
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Butter Dog
Gallente The Littlest Hobos En Garde
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Posted - 2011.06.25 21:48:00 -
[118]
here is another 'fact' for you
Monocle wearers are part of an ~elite~ you can merely aspire to.
We are better than you.
You are poor. ----------
~bitter dog~
etc |
General Xenophon
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Posted - 2011.06.25 21:56:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Butter Dog here is another 'fact' for you
Monocle wearers are part of an ~elite~ you can merely aspire to.
We are better than you.
You are poor.
I can only wish I was like you Butter Dog. You're trolls are so good they give me wet dreams.
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Hana Steelethorne
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:00:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Nuramori While this is getting a bit into the speculation, I think that SP for AUra would not simply unbalance the game, but change the dynamic. Partly it affects the vets - they spent their time building a character's skills up, invested the time - taht's ultimately what Eve is about, time.
That time has more meaning than investment, it also relates to a knowledge base. It's irritating enough bringing in a guy that says he has 80million Sp only to find out its a bought character and doesn't know the first thing about proper fitting for pvp, what battle comms means, or how to operate a jump bridge. It lowers the quality of the game because until recently, it was a fair assumption SP equates to experience, and that means a common ground that allows for the game to be socially fun.
So, there's a lot that's tied into the ability to buy yourself into a top tier position, be it skills or a capable ship. Maybe not directly evident until you look at the "butterfly" effect of people accessing portions of eve without having learned the value of what they attained.
If I could buy my blackbelt with cash, would it make me a black belt? would it devalue the meaning and quality of that belt? To whom? me? others? the public? yes on all counts.
And, I agree. The whole issue of buying high SP characters, let alone SP's for cash, devalues the achievement of the goals in the game. But then again...all these bought toons and those who buy SP's are gonna get are their expensive, ill-fitted boats blown outta space and themselves podded. To the victor go the spoils.
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V'Kanth Agalder
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:03:00 -
[121]
@Dobbs, thankyou for a cool-headed and eloquent assessment of the situation. I have enjoyed reading this thread. I agree with all of your points. Should mt-to-win come to pass then I will vote with my feet. A subscription and mt payment model would be unacceptable to me - I'd hate to be constantly having to pay (completely breaking immersion). The forums need to settle down now - we have expressed our unhappiness. CCP is a RL business - abuse and threats is not the way to have meaningful dialogue in the real world. I hope that CCP will engage with us appropriately in due course.
/My 2p
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Karsa Egivand
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:15:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Karsa Egivand on 25/06/2011 22:16:06
Originally by: Rhivre I completely agree with Dobbs.
Having said that, there are some very eloquent posters amongst the rabble, and those I have no problem conversing with, however, the ones who dismiss anyone who disagrees with them as "CCP Alts", "Noobs" "Cretins and Farmville players" just to mention some of the more polite ones, as well as deciding that their annoyance with CCP means they get to disrupt Jita / Dixie / Hek / Amarr instead of just not logging in, because their right to be angry trumps mine to just carry on as normal, not to mention the personal attacks against CCP employees, those, I have no time for.
reposted for truth
Also, great thread (most of it) by both sides. Let the future decide.
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Ianus
Caldari Geminus Gateway
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:16:00 -
[123]
Originally by: RougeOperator Not like i needed another reason to dislike eve uni. But you really made the case for it with this troll.
I was thinking the same thing. Not that what the OP wrote is complete BS, but let me put it this way: if what's going on most of the forum threads is an exaggeration of reality, then his take is an extreme down-playing of current and future issues.
The only time he doesn't understate is when he talks about the amazing future potential of Incarna.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:17:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Hana Steelethorne
Originally by: Nuramori While this is getting a bit into the speculation, I think that SP for AUra would not simply unbalance the game, but change the dynamic. Partly it affects the vets - they spent their time building a character's skills up, invested the time - taht's ultimately what Eve is about, time.
That time has more meaning than investment, it also relates to a knowledge base. It's irritating enough bringing in a guy that says he has 80million Sp only to find out its a bought character and doesn't know the first thing about proper fitting for pvp, what battle comms means, or how to operate a jump bridge. It lowers the quality of the game because until recently, it was a fair assumption SP equates to experience, and that means a common ground that allows for the game to be socially fun.
So, there's a lot that's tied into the ability to buy yourself into a top tier position, be it skills or a capable ship. Maybe not directly evident until you look at the "butterfly" effect of people accessing portions of eve without having learned the value of what they attained.
If I could buy my blackbelt with cash, would it make me a black belt? would it devalue the meaning and quality of that belt? To whom? me? others? the public? yes on all counts.
And, I agree. The whole issue of buying high SP characters, let alone SP's for cash, devalues the achievement of the goals in the game. But then again...all these bought toons and those who buy SP's are gonna get are their expensive, ill-fitted boats blown outta space and themselves podded. To the victor go the spoils.
Very, very true.
That's the first thought that crossed my mind when I heard about possible p2w. They'll lose it the moment they undock.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:20:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Ianus
Originally by: RougeOperator Not like i needed another reason to dislike eve uni. But you really made the case for it with this troll.
I was thinking the same thing. Not that what the OP wrote is complete BS, but let me put it this way: if what's going on most of the forum threads is an exaggeration of reality, then his take is an extreme down-playing of current and future issues.
The only time he doesn't understate is when he talks about the amazing future potential of Incarna.
If you completely ignore my interest in objective facts and re-frame the topic as a comparison between my post on those posters suffering from mob rage, then I can see why you would say that. But you really do have to alter reality a bit to say it.
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Lina Thamaris
Caldari Angry Elks
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:21:00 -
[126]
Word! I completely agree with the original poster, Dobbs Head! He's so right, you couldn't be more right.
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Ianus
Caldari Geminus Gateway
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:22:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Ianus on 25/06/2011 22:25:25
Originally by: Dobbs Head
Originally by: Ianus
Originally by: RougeOperator Not like i needed another reason to dislike eve uni. But you really made the case for it with this troll.
I was thinking the same thing. Not that what the OP wrote is complete BS, but let me put it this way: if what's going on most of the forum threads is an exaggeration of reality, then his take is an extreme down-playing of current and future issues.
The only time he doesn't understate is when he talks about the amazing future potential of Incarna.
If you completely ignore my interest in objective facts and re-frame the topic as a comparison between my post on those posters suffering from mob rage, then I can see why you would say that. But you really do have to alter reality a bit to say it.
Just as you have. (from my point of view at least) EDIT: I do however agree with your second post. This is not CCP's NGE.
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Lina Thamaris
Caldari Angry Elks
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:24:00 -
[128]
PS: Even though I doubt the current Noble prices are within sane reason.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:26:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Lina Thamaris PS: Even though I doubt the current Noble prices are within sane reason.
I totally agree.
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Ketria Saine
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:27:00 -
[130]
As a new player of three-and-a-half months ('Nuff said? ), I would like to add my perspective to this reasonable thread of debate.
When I came to EVE in March (originally temporarily) it was like an epiphany. Here was an MMO like no other, and I cancelled my WoW account four days later. I still believe this game has a future, but possibly not the one I envisaged when I originally subscribed.
The rollout of Incarna has been a shocking experience for me. I have never seen a group of MMO players become so passionate about their chosen game, and so hostile towards its makers. That passion is totally justified, but much of the hostility has been the result of an understandable but nevertheless knee-jerk reaction to what they thought was going to happen, and not what was happening, to EVE. Speculation was rife, but that's all it has been - speculation.
I'm not going to discuss the "Fearless" .pdf too much; I've read it, and see the point of it. It's a debate and discussion publication. CCP ZUlu, in his overdue devblog, at least got that across (and I've never seen a dev get quite so angry in a blogpost before). CCP Soundwave has been quite unfairly maligned by some, for offering a purely hypothetical scenario that we the players were not even meant to see.
Which brings me to the NEX. I have no problem with it in principle, but it should only offer vanity items; by their very nature P2Win items have no place in EVE. (The removal of the Scorpion purchase at the request of the CSM avoided even more controversy, thankfully.) But it's CCP's pricing that is at fault. An item in the NEX should be affordable to all. By that I mean that what is the point in creating an item (i.e. the monocle) that only a small percentage of players would want to purchase at such a price? CCP Zulu talks about exclusivity, but such items should be an impulse purchase available to all players, veteran or new. Has CCP not considered the fact that many more monocles or skirts or trousers might be bought if the pricing reflected this? Having said that, a whole range of such vanity items at various price points could be offered to attract everyone. CCP have missed an opportunity here.
Captain's Quarters is buggy, unoptimised, and unfinished. Yes, CQ looks gorgeous, CCP Zulu; but it doesn't play gorgeous. We players should never have been forced to adopt the CQ at the expense of the hangar view that everyone was used to. There should simply have been an extra button above Undock for us to enter the CQ. It is less intuitive to have to turn an avatar towards a station on the balcony in order to access your ship than simply being able to click on it. The default view of staring down the corridor away from your ship does not help either. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the CQ, the information screens and interfaces are great, but CCP need to make the players want to use the CQ. Making it mandatory in its current state was a mistake in my eyes. I, for one, would like the hangar view back, please.
I know I've probably reiterated a lot of what others have stated already, but that's how I feel. The next few weeks and months will be very interesting for EVE, CCP, and the playerbase. I will still be here; I paid up for a year two weeks before Incarna was released, and I've had my doubts about it. But the core gameplay that attracted me in the first place is still there. And I'll be damned if I'm wasting all that money.
tl;dr
Incarna rollout was an eye-opener. "Fearless" is not a CCP policy document. The NEX is a missed opportunity to attract players both veteran and new. CQ needs finishing and the hangar view needs to be restored.
-KS
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:28:00 -
[131]
Originally by: V'Kanth Agalder @Dobbs, thankyou for a cool-headed and eloquent assessment of the situation. I have enjoyed reading this thread. I agree with all of your points. Should mt-to-win come to pass then I will vote with my feet. A subscription and mt payment model would be unacceptable to me - I'd hate to be constantly having to pay (completely breaking immersion). The forums need to settle down now - we have expressed our unhappiness. CCP is a RL business - abuse and threats is not the way to have meaningful dialogue in the real world. I hope that CCP will engage with us appropriately in due course.
/My 2p
Oh yes, I've enjoyed this thread as well. It has gone much better than I thought it would when I started it. Got some good perspectives out of it, anyway.
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Eleena Wolf
Caldari Unknown Soldiers B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:45:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 25/06/2011 22:45:45 Honestly i dont think ccp is gonna get the chance to fix this, too many have turned to mob mentality in this matter. Unless they(ccp) got on right now and said something in regards to this matter, its over. Sad to say but i believe it to be true. I guess I'll stop playing if this stuff actually happens, but again, by then it wont matter. too many will have left even if they dont go forward mt plans.
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Candente
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:46:00 -
[133]
Question: what is a "pay to win" item?
or rather
What does it mean to "win" Eve?
You can already buy ISK using rl cash through PLEX system. And you can also buy high SP characters.
So I suppose p2w item is going to be an "Aurum Bomb" that would instantly kill x amount of enemy ships, but consumes Aurum to launch.
Hmm I don't think Aurum would work since it's technically obtainable without paying rl cash... Maybe CCP will need to implement a new currency, such as "Bitterum", that cannot be obtained without paying them rl cash... and Bitterum bomb... hmmm...
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 22:57:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Candente Question: what is a "pay to win" item?
or rather
What does it mean to "win" Eve?
You can already buy ISK using rl cash through PLEX system. And you can also buy high SP characters.
So I suppose p2w item is going to be an "Aurum Bomb" that would instantly kill x amount of enemy ships, but consumes Aurum to launch.
Hmm I don't think Aurum would work since it's technically obtainable without paying rl cash... Maybe CCP will need to implement a new currency, such as "Bitterum", that cannot be obtained without paying them rl cash... and Bitterum bomb... hmmm...
Well, that is an excellent point. The term "pay to win" hasn't exactly been defined and may mean different things to different people.
As for me, I automatically think of a DDO style system where whatever you need at a particular moment can be purchased through the in-game interface and dropped right into your inventory.
I've seen at least one person on this forum who seems to think that it means being able to purchase items which are much more powerful than those that can be created by players.
I do wonder what kind of system CCP would put into place if they decided to go down this road. I think whatever items would be available may be equivalent to player generated items, but I have no basis for that opinion.
You do make a couple of good points there about the term not being defined and the practical application of pay to win already exists even if not in an overt manner.
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Eleena Wolf
Caldari Unknown Soldiers B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.25 23:08:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 25/06/2011 23:10:45
Originally by: Dobbs Head
Originally by: Candente Question: what is a "pay to win" item?
or rather
What does it mean to "win" Eve?
You can already buy ISK using rl cash through PLEX system. And you can also buy high SP characters.
So I suppose p2w item is going to be an "Aurum Bomb" that would instantly kill x amount of enemy ships, but consumes Aurum to launch.
Hmm I don't think Aurum would work since it's technically obtainable without paying rl cash... Maybe CCP will need to implement a new currency, such as "Bitterum", that cannot be obtained without paying them rl cash... and Bitterum bomb... hmmm...
Well, that is an excellent point. The term "pay to win" hasn't exactly been defined and may mean different things to different people.
As for me, I automatically think of a DDO style system where whatever you need at a particular moment can be purchased through the in-game interface and dropped right into your inventory.
I've seen at least one person on this forum who seems to think that it means being able to purchase items which are much more powerful than those that can be created by players.
I do wonder what kind of system CCP would put into place if they decided to go down this road. I think whatever items would be available may be equivalent to player generated items, but I have no basis for that opinion.
You do make a couple of good points there about the term not being defined and the practical application of pay to win already exists even if not in an overt manner.
if ccp chooses to go the micro transaction route for ingame items, the mt model global agenda uses would probably be the best one, for the most part its vanity items, but you can purchse existing items, meaning if you were of the appropriate level you can get an item faster than say someone who has to earn ingame currency to buy it or rely on it being dropped from mission rewards or npcs. that is what from what i have seen to best model for mt. But until an official statement is made (soon) to either confirm or deny the fears of the subscriber base, who is to say the fears arent justified, also an apology would probably be in order.
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MINING5UCK5
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Posted - 2011.06.25 23:08:00 -
[136]
I think the fact that they didnt come out days ago and state clearly "it will never be p2w of any kind" is an indicator that it will be heading at least to some degree in that direction, if not, they would have just said it. that said i doubt they'll be selling better ammo or ships in the Nex, since thats the last thing that people want since its the most p2w, i think instead its likely to be things like faction towers (trade in a tower and aurum and get a faction tower bpc, therefore protecting markets) and other things that high wealth players might be interested in. so that its less a system of people buying plexes to make into aurum so they can buy a powerful ship etc, but instead it will be more for high wealth people who can buy 4 or 5 plexes with isk and use them to buy a better tower or other high end item that has economic or strategic benefits, rather than combat. (for the record im 100% against p2w in eve)
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 23:24:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Eleena Wolf Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 25/06/2011 22:45:45 Honestly i dont think ccp is gonna get the chance to fix this, too many have turned to mob mentality in this matter. Unless they(ccp) got on right now and said something in regards to this matter, its over. Sad to say but i believe it to be true. I guess I'll stop playing if this stuff actually happens, but again, by then it wont matter. too many will have left even if they dont go forward mt plans.
I don't think that's true. I've come to the opinion that it is merely a very vocal minority who may end up leaving. I seriously doubt that there will be a significant change in the number of players. They can hollar about unsubscribing all day long, but it won't mean a thing to mean until they're actually gone. How many posters are actively raging on the forums versus how many are quietly going about their daily game?
Sure, the pictures of Jita are very impressive, but there were only 1300 players in system earlier today. 1479 players as of 10 minutes ago when I logged an alt in to check. Maybe a couple hundred more hanging out at gates waiting for the congestion to die out a bit. That's not a huge percentage of the player base. Not by a long shot. Even if there are 9,000 players chewing up the forums and chain posting crap like "Bring us Soundwave!" and whatnot, that's only what, around 3% of the player base? That would leave 97% of the player base just going about business as usual.
What if those numbers are a bit low? Let's triple it. 27,000 players are chewing up the forums posting frequent rants, spamming mmo news outlets with riot updates, and hanging out waiting to jump into Jita to pwn a monument. That would be what? 9% of the estimated player base from the wiki? Sooooo...91% of folks are just hanging out doing their normal thing.
Those numbers are just to put into context the fact that no matter how large the rabble-rousers appear to be, they are dwarfed by the rest of us.
I'm not really all that worried about EvE suddenly becoming empty. Obviously we don't have access to CCP's numbers, but I'm still under the impression that it's a very, very small minority that has actively lost their minds. And when they quit, I think there will be some very interesting things going on in claimable space. Yes, the game will go on without them.
The rest of us are just biding our time, waiting for some communication from CCP before we decide anything.
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Nix Lazarus
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.06.25 23:33:00 -
[138]
Get your logic and common sense out of my internet spaceship drama!
Seriously though, I'm somewhat torn on the issue. On one hand, I completely agree that the protesters are over-reacting to a ridiculous extent, throwing tantrums, overestimating their numbers, hindering other players' enjoyment of the game and personally attacking CCP staff for just doing their jobs. On the other, while I don't agree with their methods, I support their point, a.i. no pay-to-win MT items. And while I do want to be on CCP's side, their lackluster response is making it hard right now. So, I'm currently suspending judgement either way and waiting for things to settle. Let the raging neckbeards have their Che Guevarra moment while CCP figure things out and give a definitive answer regarding subsequent MT plans. Based on that, it's either back to business as usual or quietly moving on to a different game.
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leth ghost
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Posted - 2011.06.25 23:35:00 -
[139]
you trying to troll me bi4tch didnt even make mad at all infact i laughed
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.25 23:41:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Nix Lazarus Get your logic and common sense out of my internet spaceship drama!
Quote: Seriously though, I'm somewhat torn on the issue. On one hand, I completely agree that the protesters are over-reacting to a ridiculous extent, throwing tantrums, overestimating their numbers, hindering other players' enjoyment of the game and personally attacking CCP staff for just doing their jobs. On the other, while I don't agree with their methods, I support their point, a.i. no pay-to-win MT items. And while I do want to be on CCP's side, their lackluster response is making it hard right now. So, I'm currently suspending judgement either way and waiting for things to settle. Let the raging neckbeards have their Che Guevarra moment while CCP figure things out and give a definitive answer regarding subsequent MT plans. Based on that, it's either back to business as usual or quietly moving on to a different game.
Yeah, the "riots" have made for some good screen shots. Ultimately, it's a waiting game now, I think. Waiting for some communication from CCP and waiting for the nerd ragers to finish up with all the drama.
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Eleena Wolf
Caldari Unknown Soldiers B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.25 23:48:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Dobbs Head
Originally by: Eleena Wolf Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 25/06/2011 22:45:45 Honestly i dont think ccp is gonna get the chance to fix this, too many have turned to mob mentality in this matter. Unless they(ccp) got on right now and said something in regards to this matter, its over. Sad to say but i believe it to be true. I guess I'll stop playing if this stuff actually happens, but again, by then it wont matter. too many will have left even if they dont go forward mt plans.
I don't think that's true. I've come to the opinion that it is merely a very vocal minority who may end up leaving. I seriously doubt that there will be a significant change in the number of players. They can hollar about unsubscribing all day long, but it won't mean a thing to mean until they're actually gone. How many posters are actively raging on the forums versus how many are quietly going about their daily game?
Sure, the pictures of Jita are very impressive, but there were only 1300 players in system earlier today. 1479 players as of 10 minutes ago when I logged an alt in to check. Maybe a couple hundred more hanging out at gates waiting for the congestion to die out a bit. That's not a huge percentage of the player base. Not by a long shot. Even if there are 9,000 players chewing up the forums and chain posting crap like "Bring us Soundwave!" and whatnot, that's only what, around 3% of the player base? That would leave 97% of the player base just going about business as usual.
What if those numbers are a bit low? Let's triple it. 27,000 players are chewing up the forums posting frequent rants, spamming mmo news outlets with riot updates, and hanging out waiting to jump into Jita to pwn a monument. That would be what? 9% of the estimated player base from the wiki? Sooooo...91% of folks are just hanging out doing their normal thing.
Those numbers are just to put into context the fact that no matter how large the rabble-rousers appear to be, they are dwarfed by the rest of us.
I'm not really all that worried about EvE suddenly becoming empty. Obviously we don't have access to CCP's numbers, but I'm still under the impression that it's a very, very small minority that has actively lost their minds. And when they quit, I think there will be some very interesting things going on in claimable space. Yes, the game will go on without them.
The rest of us are just biding our time, waiting for some communication from CCP before we decide anything.
i hope your right about that. but until i am proven wrong i stand by that comment for 2 reasons
1. Ive seen other good or potentially good mmos die out due to less. Dark age of camelot, Ultima online, warhammer to name a few. (yes, I possess a seething hatred towards mythic entertainment)
2. The negative press ccp is surely catching from all this, not totally sure, but as i understand it, game companies live and die by the media. bad press=less people wanting to play.
but since this discussion hasnt spiralled out of control yet, the whole aurum exchange was supposed to be a primary method of making money from dust players since ccp isnt charging them a subscription correct?
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.26 00:20:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 26/06/2011 00:21:37
Originally by: Eleena Wolf
Originally by: Dobbs Head
Originally by: Eleena Wolf Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 25/06/2011 22:45:45 Honestly i dont think ccp is gonna get the chance to fix this, too many have turned to mob mentality in this matter. Unless they(ccp) got on right now and said something in regards to this matter, its over. Sad to say but i believe it to be true. I guess I'll stop playing if this stuff actually happens, but again, by then it wont matter. too many will have left even if they dont go forward mt plans.
I don't think that's true. I've come to the opinion that it is merely a very vocal minority who may end up leaving. I seriously doubt that there will be a significant change in the number of players. They can hollar about unsubscribing all day long, but it won't mean a thing to mean until they're actually gone. How many posters are actively raging on the forums versus how many are quietly going about their daily game?
Sure, the pictures of Jita are very impressive, but there were only 1300 players in system earlier today. 1479 players as of 10 minutes ago when I logged an alt in to check. Maybe a couple hundred more hanging out at gates waiting for the congestion to die out a bit. That's not a huge percentage of the player base. Not by a long shot. Even if there are 9,000 players chewing up the forums and chain posting crap like "Bring us Soundwave!" and whatnot, that's only what, around 3% of the player base? That would leave 97% of the player base just going about business as usual.
What if those numbers are a bit low? Let's triple it. 27,000 players are chewing up the forums posting frequent rants, spamming mmo news outlets with riot updates, and hanging out waiting to jump into Jita to pwn a monument. That would be what? 9% of the estimated player base from the wiki? Sooooo...91% of folks are just hanging out doing their normal thing.
Those numbers are just to put into context the fact that no matter how large the rabble-rousers appear to be, they are dwarfed by the rest of us.
I'm not really all that worried about EvE suddenly becoming empty. Obviously we don't have access to CCP's numbers, but I'm still under the impression that it's a very, very small minority that has actively lost their minds. And when they quit, I think there will be some very interesting things going on in claimable space. Yes, the game will go on without them.
The rest of us are just biding our time, waiting for some communication from CCP before we decide anything.
i hope your right about that. but until i am proven wrong i stand by that comment for 2 reasons
1. Ive seen other good or potentially good mmos die out due to less. Dark age of camelot, Ultima online, warhammer to name a few. (yes, I possess a seething hatred towards mythic entertainment)
2. The negative press ccp is surely catching from all this, not totally sure, but as i understand it, game companies live and die by the media. bad press=less people wanting to play.
but since this discussion hasnt spiralled out of control yet, the whole aurum exchange was supposed to be a primary method of making money from dust players since ccp isnt charging them a subscription correct?
Media is certainly a very powerful factor for any game. I think that EvE will have far more staying power due to its age and reputation. Pretty sure that folks in the media will give them a chance to speak. I certainly could be wrong about that. The expectation of responsible reporting may be a bit too much to ask for from most media types.
As far as the Aur is concerned, I think that's right. I'm not really into console games, so I haven't been following Dust too closely.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.06.26 00:39:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Dobbs Head Edited by: Dobbs Head on 26/06/2011 00:21:37
Originally by: Eleena Wolf
Originally by: Dobbs Head
Originally by: Eleena Wolf Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 25/06/2011 22:45:45 Honestly i dont think ccp is gonna get the chance to fix this, too many have turned to mob mentality in this matter. Unless they(ccp) got on right now and said something in regards to this matter, its over. Sad to say but i believe it to be true. I guess I'll stop playing if this stuff actually happens, but again, by then it wont matter. too many will have left even if they dont go forward mt plans.
I don't think that's true. I've come to the opinion that it is merely a very vocal minority who may end up leaving. I seriously doubt that there will be a significant change in the number of players. They can hollar about unsubscribing all day long, but it won't mean a thing to mean until they're actually gone. How many posters are actively raging on the forums versus how many are quietly going about their daily game?
Sure, the pictures of Jita are very impressive, but there were only 1300 players in system earlier today. 1479 players as of 10 minutes ago when I logged an alt in to check. Maybe a couple hundred more hanging out at gates waiting for the congestion to die out a bit. That's not a huge percentage of the player base. Not by a long shot. Even if there are 9,000 players chewing up the forums and chain posting crap like "Bring us Soundwave!" and whatnot, that's only what, around 3% of the player base? That would leave 97% of the player base just going about business as usual.
What if those numbers are a bit low? Let's triple it. 27,000 players are chewing up the forums posting frequent rants, spamming mmo news outlets with riot updates, and hanging out waiting to jump into Jita to pwn a monument. That would be what? 9% of the estimated player base from the wiki? Sooooo...91% of folks are just hanging out doing their normal thing.
Those numbers are just to put into context the fact that no matter how large the rabble-rousers appear to be, they are dwarfed by the rest of us.
I'm not really all that worried about EvE suddenly becoming empty. Obviously we don't have access to CCP's numbers, but I'm still under the impression that it's a very, very small minority that has actively lost their minds. And when they quit, I think there will be some very interesting things going on in claimable space. Yes, the game will go on without them.
The rest of us are just biding our time, waiting for some communication from CCP before we decide anything.
i hope your right about that. but until i am proven wrong i stand by that comment for 2 reasons
1. Ive seen other good or potentially good mmos die out due to less. Dark age of camelot, Ultima online, warhammer to name a few. (yes, I possess a seething hatred towards mythic entertainment)
2. The negative press ccp is surely catching from all this, not totally sure, but as i understand it, game companies live and die by the media. bad press=less people wanting to play.
but since this discussion hasnt spiralled out of control yet, the whole aurum exchange was supposed to be a primary method of making money from dust players since ccp isnt charging them a subscription correct?
Media is certainly a very powerful factor for any game. I think that EvE will have far more staying power due to its age and reputation. Pretty sure that folks in the media will give them a chance to speak. I certainly could be wrong about that. The expectation of responsible reporting may be a bit too much to ask for from most media types.
As far as the Aur is concerned, I think that's right. I'm not really into console games, so I haven't been following Dust too closely.
That is correct.
Good post Dobbs.
The hate thread spammers should understand that THEY are the reason Hilmar said he will pay more attention to what people do than what they say. Thanks guys... ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
Eleena Wolf
Caldari Unknown Soldiers B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.26 01:02:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 01:04:40 well i guess we just wait for the official release from ccp in regards to this matter and see what happens. I understand the concerns expressed here, but flaming from both sides of the arguement seems to agitate the situation.
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Poetic Stanziel
Gallente EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.26 01:06:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Dobbs Head I think that a message has been clearly conveyed by many folks: We won't subscribe to any game with a pay-to-win system. What must be recognized is that other players might. The problem that CCP will face with establishing a pay-to-win system is the gamble involved in alienating their current player base while hoping to attract new player base. Other companies have failed with this same gamble. What must be said is that while there is evidence in the newsletter that CCP is open to sifting through many different options there is no evidence at all that they are actively pursuing the installation of a of a pay-to-win system.
EVE University, one of the voices of reason in New Eden. Along with Goonswarm and a few others.
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Johannes Alexodia
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Posted - 2011.06.26 01:20:00 -
[146]
Easy fix. Somone buys a Pay-to-win your mass wardec him and his corp until they have no reason to play anymore. Burn their ships and their friends to the ground under sheer firepower.
Quantity is a Quality of its own.
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Eleena Wolf
Caldari Unknown Soldiers B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.26 01:24:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Johannes Alexodia Easy fix. Somone buys a Pay-to-win your mass wardec him and his corp until they have no reason to play anymore. Burn their ships and their friends to the ground under sheer firepower.
Quantity is a Quality of its own.
Aaaand now this thread spirals out of control. :(
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Poetic Stanziel
Gallente EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.26 01:35:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Johannes Alexodia Easy fix. Somone buys a Pay-to-win your mass wardec him and his corp until they have no reason to play anymore. Burn their ships and their friends to the ground under sheer firepower.
Quantity is a Quality of its own.
A complete flight of fancy. CCP would never allow such a thing. The corporation is not run by monkeys.
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Candente
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.26 01:54:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Dobbs Head
Media is certainly a very powerful factor for any game. I think that EvE will have far more staying power due to its age and reputation. Pretty sure that folks in the media will give them a chance to speak. I certainly could be wrong about that. The expectation of responsible reporting may be a bit too much to ask for from most media types.
Arousing negative media attention doesn't really help the game's growth, tbh. It leaves a sour taste to everyone involved and prompt further "listen to their action not words" internal mentality from CCP, perhaps. Prospective players will have a more negative attitude toward the Eve and sometimes to its community.
Although the latter one is probably justified...
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Linar Mardolak
Minmatar Phlogiston Absorption
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Posted - 2011.06.26 02:00:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Poetic Stanziel
Originally by: Johannes Alexodia Easy fix. Somone buys a Pay-to-win your mass wardec him and his corp until they have no reason to play anymore. Burn their ships and their friends to the ground under sheer firepower.
Quantity is a Quality of its own.
A complete flight of fancy. CCP would never allow such a thing. The corporation is not run by monkeys.
You're making the other side's argument here.
If it's possible to purchase an I-win button (and it's unlikely to be a single item, but $100000-plus has certainly been spent on wars in Eve already), the only non-financial recourse is to wardec and use the power of numbers to defeat the I-win button.
I'm ex-Uni (well, not Linar, but my now-gone due to this debacle main), and I well know what the view inside the Uni about wardecs is. However, things are very, very different in the rest of Eve. Wardecs are necessary. If CCP both makes it possible to buy a small-scale win and prevents player-driven consequences, the game is dead. It's not even the slow and painful death that the upset people here are concerned about, as the industrial core of the game rots, it's a rapid one, as a few completely cash-driven powerblocs race to run things.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.26 13:59:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Linar Mardolak
Originally by: Poetic Stanziel
Originally by: Johannes Alexodia Easy fix. Somone buys a Pay-to-win your mass wardec him and his corp until they have no reason to play anymore. Burn their ships and their friends to the ground under sheer firepower.
Quantity is a Quality of its own.
A complete flight of fancy. CCP would never allow such a thing. The corporation is not run by monkeys.
You're making the other side's argument here.
If it's possible to purchase an I-win button (and it's unlikely to be a single item, but $100000-plus has certainly been spent on wars in Eve already), the only non-financial recourse is to wardec and use the power of numbers to defeat the I-win button.
I'm ex-Uni (well, not Linar, but my now-gone due to this debacle main), and I well know what the view inside the Uni about wardecs is. However, things are very, very different in the rest of Eve. Wardecs are necessary. If CCP both makes it possible to buy a small-scale win and prevents player-driven consequences, the game is dead. It's not even the slow and painful death that the upset people here are concerned about, as the industrial core of the game rots, it's a rapid one, as a few completely cash-driven powerblocs race to run things.
There is no evidence at all that there will be an "I-win" button for sale. The concern that some folks may be experiencing isn't based on anything that has actually happened. An objective reading of the newsletter, while maintaining the understanding that it was some brainstorming and not a development plan, doesn't lead to the conclusion that massively powerful items will be for sale in a pay to win shop.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.26 14:30:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 26/06/2011 14:36:29 Edited by: Dobbs Head on 26/06/2011 14:30:11 Hmmm, I think I'm going to quit posting in threads with foolish titles. All it does is bump the foolishness to the top of the forum. If I see a post that I wish to respond to in another thread, I'll just respond to it here. It will also provide a collection point for some of the arguments at hand.
With regard to some folks trying to frame an argument around the numbers of players who have claimed to quit:
Quote: Sooo, with the most recent wiki stats at 357,000 total account and 4,000 have supposedly quit (which I don't actually believe, btw), that leaves 353,000 active accounts. Some of whom don't care about what's going on and some of whom have taken a "wait and see" attitude.
I know that the numbers of those claiming to quit look impressive to some folks, but if the 4181 actually DO follow through on what they're saying, then they represent a grand total of 1.1% of the player base. Which leaves 98.9% of the EvE player base completely unphased. No one will miss you. No one will even notice.
These numbers are nowhere near large enough to make CCP concerned about anything. I bet that 1% of the player base unsubs at every expansion, lol.
Anywho, carry on, carry on.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.26 14:35:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Fractal Muse
Originally by: Dobbs Head
Soooo, by those figures not even 0.98% of the player base has rage quit.
/golfclap
The remaining 99.02% of us salute you on your way out the door. I doubt your absence will even be noticed.
Oh, I'll be adding yet another account this week, so that might throw your numbers off a little bit. I mention it because you seem to be impressed by very, very small percentages.
You are missing something. That 1% was in three days.
And it seems to be continuing.
Therein lies the problem for CCP - regardless of what you may think, they need to stop the subscription bleed. Your adding another account will be less than 0.001% of regaining what was publicly stated as lost by forum goers.
That's also a problem unto itself, that's 3500 or so lost accounts of forum posters who may or may not be really quitting. But, what about all the unposted account cancellations? Conversely, what about new accounts that don't post..
Anyway, in my eyes, losing around 1% of your playerbase in less than three days is a very bad thing no matter how you try to spin it.
With how CCP is managing the game, the community, and their design - I don't have any hope for EVE. Personally, I am one of the ones who did cancel mainly because I do not want to be associated with a company that treats its customers the way CCP is. The direction that CCP game designers are taking EVE online is not something I wish to be a part of any longer. Now, it may be that I misunderstood their lack of communication, and I am open to that, but having seen other gaming companies go down this road as well - I will remain unsubscribed until proven wrong.
As an aside, if the subscription bleed continues, it will be very bad for EVE and CCP.
It is an emotional reaction based on a faulty interpretation of partial information. I highly doubt that it will continue. Only the high-strung individuals will jump the gun on this.
And I do believe that you may be assuming that all of those who have claimed to quit actually will quit. Right now this is all talk. Hilmar was right: Ignore what they say. Watch what they do.
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Snake Scofield
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Posted - 2011.06.26 14:45:00 -
[154]
Something a lot of people aren't noticing is that the 'Greed is Good?' newsletter was published in May. The 'Give me monocles or give me death' dev blog which states that only vanity items will be in the store was published on the 27th of May.
So the whole discussion took place and was written up long before they stated :
Quote: So this thing is vanity items only? Yes.
There's not a lot of wiggle room there. Unlike the previous statement which has often been conveniently misquoted by the mob saying they had no plans to introduce MT.
Calm down.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.26 14:47:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Snake Scofield Something a lot of people aren't noticing is that the 'Greed is Good?' newsletter was published in May. The 'Give me monocles or give me death' dev blog which states that only vanity items will be in the store was published on the 27th of May.
So the whole discussion took place and was written up long before they stated :
Quote: So this thing is vanity items only? Yes.
There's not a lot of wiggle room there. Unlike the previous statement which has often been conveniently misquoted by the mob saying they had no plans to introduce MT.
Calm down.
A most excellent observation.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.26 15:00:00 -
[156]
Edited by: Dobbs Head on 26/06/2011 15:00:28 Regarding statements about the percentage of unsubs in a three day period:
1% of the player population has claimed to have unsubscribed. The reality is that this claim certainly cannot be proven. How many of the supposed 4k+ accounts have actually unsubscribed? No one can say.
What is interesting to note is that unsubing is hardly a permanent thing. If you truly wish to make a serious point then biomass your mains and post some screen shots of the termination process with both before and after images. Then perhaps you will be taken seriously. Using a claim of unsubing to bolster your argument is like a Buddhist monk protesting something he views as a grievous offense by dousing himself with water and lighting a match.
Until then, posting in an "unsub" thread looks silly not only because the percentage of unsubs vs. the percentage of remaining accounts is insignificant but also that unsubing is not a permanent state.
This is one reason why the "1% in three days!" argument is not a forceful argument at all.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.26 19:24:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Zulu However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum. In Fearless people are arguing a point, which doesn't even have to be their view, they are debating an issue. This is another example of how information out of context is no information at all.
That's what I was saying about that damn newsletter. Partial information badly interpreted by some players.
There will be no pay to win.
Next topic.
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Vitamin B12
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Posted - 2011.06.26 19:32:00 -
[158]
Quote: Dogma, the process that handles attributes on items and how they are modified, was massively re-engineered. This change shouldnÆt affect players or change gameplay in any way but is the groundwork for features in following releases.
---
Corporations for Highsec pos anchoring. Only a fee of 75 Million ISK. *click* |
Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.26 19:34:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Vitamin B12
Quote: Dogma, the process that handles attributes on items and how they are modified, was massively re-engineered. This change shouldnÆt affect players or change gameplay in any way but is the groundwork for features in following releases.
Did you have a specific point?
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Vitamin B12
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Posted - 2011.06.26 19:45:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Dobbs Head Edited by: Dobbs Head on 26/06/2011 19:41:06 Edited by: Dobbs Head on 26/06/2011 19:40:55 Edited by: Dobbs Head on 26/06/2011 19:39:24
Originally by: Vitamin B12
Quote: Dogma, the process that handles attributes on items and how they are modified, was massively re-engineered. This change shouldnÆt affect players or change gameplay in any way but is the groundwork for features in following releases.
Did you have a specific point?
8000 Aurum. 400% Turret Damage, for 4 hours. ---
Corporations for Highsec pos anchoring. Only a fee of 75 Million ISK. *click* |
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Eleena Wolf
Caldari Unknown Soldiers B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.26 20:06:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 20:06:38 Dobbs, I can appreciate what your trying to do, but the more rational and level headed minds from both sides of the arguement on this matter will not prevail. We can only wait for the offical statement after the csm meeting. Until then, well the fire is still burning. Again I hope you are right about you said before regarding the outcome of this, but between the negative media coverage, the rumor mill, and the current attitude toward ccp, I see this game either dying out or it will loose enough subscribers that ccp wont have any choice but to go free to play with mt of the bad kind.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.26 20:25:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Eleena Wolf Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 26/06/2011 20:06:38 Dobbs, I can appreciate what your trying to do, but the more rational and level headed minds from both sides of the arguement on this matter will not prevail. We can only wait for the offical statement after the csm meeting. Until then, well the fire is still burning.
Unfortunately, I think you are right.
Quote: Again I hope you are right about you said before regarding the outcome of this, but between the negative media coverage, the rumor mill, and the current attitude toward ccp, I see this game either dying out or it will loose enough subscribers that ccp wont have any choice but to go free to play with mt of the bad kind.
It's certainly a possibility. Hopefully EvE will have the strength to survive the media. My opinion is that there is a good chance that it will be strong enough; however, of the several articles I've read I have yet to see an objective review of the facts. That's very disappointing yet hardly surprising.
If it can avoid acquiring a perpetually negative reputation such as Sony has, EvE will be fine. That's simply because it automatically attracts certain types of folks.
I do understand and appreciate your viewpoint, however.
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Dobbs Head
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.26 20:40:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Vitamin B12
Originally by: Dobbs Head Edited by: Dobbs Head on 26/06/2011 19:41:06 Edited by: Dobbs Head on 26/06/2011 19:40:55 Edited by: Dobbs Head on 26/06/2011 19:39:24
Originally by: Vitamin B12
Quote: Dogma, the process that handles attributes on items and how they are modified, was massively re-engineered. This change shouldnÆt affect players or change gameplay in any way but is the groundwork for features in following releases.
Did you have a specific point?
8000 Aurum. 400% Turret Damage, for 4 hours.
Objectively speaking, their is no evidence at all that such an item is coming to EvE.
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Eleena Wolf
Caldari Unknown Soldiers B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.26 21:57:00 -
[164]
If it does not survive, maybe we'll get lucky and they make it open source instead of selling to someone.
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Aelliana Caylon
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Posted - 2011.06.27 03:04:00 -
[165]
The number of EVE players who don't understand what "brainstorming" is or how it's done is creeping me out.
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Eleena Wolf
Caldari Unknown Soldiers B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.27 03:30:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Aelliana Caylon The number of EVE players who don't understand what "brainstorming" is or how it's done is creeping me out.
that would have to mean that eve player base was more intelligent as whole than any of the other mmo player communities that currently exist. I never understood why the eve community bought into that feeling of superiority, because stuff like this proves the eve player community = anyother player community
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