| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Malachor Jankor
   |
Posted - 2011.06.25 21:53:00 -
[1]
I don't get all the upset over the possibility of CCP deciding to sell ships and other useful items in the NEX store. Sure that means that rich noobs can just buy ships with their credit card without having to sit around and mine or salvage in game. I can see how that would be upsetting to people.
But PLEX already exists. As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?
Or is all this anger over the possibility that if people can just buy ships in the NEX store they won't bother selling their PLEX on the market and all those long term players with multiple accounts will have to actually pay for those accounts with real money that they don't have instead of just paying for their accounts with PLEX bought with ISK which they have in abundance?
|
Zelphinine
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 21:54:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Zelphinine on 25/06/2011 21:54:34
Because a PLEX is a player-to-player transaction.
MT is a player-to-CCP transaction.
Furthermore MT is just one facet of the anger being displayed.
|
Llambda
Space Llama Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 21:56:00 -
[3]
*facepalm*
|
Noddy Comet
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 21:56:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Zelphinine
Edited by: Zelphinine on 25/06/2011 21:54:34
Because a PLEX is a player-to-player transaction.
MT is a player-to-CCP transaction.
Exactly how it a player-to-player transaction again when I bought my Plex from CCP?
|
Sarah De'Ath
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 21:56:00 -
[5]
From http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=replyquote&threadID=1538979&line=8 Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Current System:
If you buy uber elite modules and ships in game, even if you use Isk from PLEX sales, at some point, a PLAYER had to grind out that Isk you are spending, and PLAYER had to hunt down and kill that officer for that drop.
AUR system:
Stuff appears out of thin air in exchange for RL cash, no PLAYER EFFORT involved ANYWHERE.
VANITY ITEMS for RL money (in the form of Aur), No Problem.
Uber modules, ships, etc for RL money WITHOUT PLAYER GRINDING FOR EVERY ISK OF THAT MONEY, BIG PROBLEM.
|
Marhaba
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 21:58:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
I don't get all the upset over the possibility of CCP deciding to sell ships and other useful items in the NEX store. Sure that means that rich noobs can just buy ships with their credit card without having to sit around and mine or salvage in game. I can see how that would be upsetting to people.
But PLEX already exists. As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?
Or is all this anger over the possibility that if people can just buy ships in the NEX store they won't bother selling their PLEX on the market and all those long term players with multiple accounts will have to actually pay for those accounts with real money that they don't have instead of just paying for their accounts with PLEX bought with ISK which they have in abundance?
Miners mine ore. Refiners refine it into minerals. Traders speculate and trade minerals. Haulers haul minerals. Manufacturers build ships. Haulers haul ships. Traders speculate and trade ships. Person buys a ship.
Compare this process to:
Person presses "bill my credit card for an instant ship" button.
|
Zelphinine
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:00:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Noddy Comet
Originally by: Zelphinine
Edited by: Zelphinine on 25/06/2011 21:54:34
Because a PLEX is a player-to-player transaction.
MT is a player-to-CCP transaction.
Exactly how it a player-to-player transaction again when I bought my Plex from CCP?
A plex lets you, a player, trade game time to another player for player B's work.
Ultimately someone is spending money and someone else is making ISK. PLEXs just let that circulate and decouple them from specific accounts.
MTs means someone is spending money. Full stop.
|
Llambda
Space Llama Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Noddy Comet
Originally by: Zelphinine
Edited by: Zelphinine on 25/06/2011 21:54:34
Because a PLEX is a player-to-player transaction.
MT is a player-to-CCP transaction.
Exactly how it a player-to-player transaction again when I bought my Plex from CCP?
The only thing you bought from CCP was a gametime voucher. That's it. That was one transaction by itself.
A COMPLETELY separate transaction took place between you and a player who then gave you ISK for your gametime voucher.
|
gdjghjhgjfh
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
Or is all this anger over the possibility that if people can just buy ships in the NEX store they won't bother selling their PLEX on the market and all those long term players with multiple accounts will have to actually pay for those accounts with real money that they don't have instead of just paying for their accounts with PLEX bought with ISK which they have in abundance?
so far, only ones i see complaining the most are the bolded above.
|
Benri Konpaku
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:03:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Benri Konpaku on 25/06/2011 22:04:57
1) PLEX was a compromise created to curb RMT activities in the game by making all players direct competitors of RMTers.
2) Nothing was added into the game that wasn't already there, therefore it would not affect game mechanics and economy any more than a new asteroid cycle would.
3) It was not perfect but it worked very well and made it possible for players to pay for their subscription just by playing while esuring all the money from the ISK sales went straight to CCP instead of down the drain and in some RMT group's pockets.
Unfortunately it seems the new income made the higher ups at CCP think they could start milking players even more by "enhancing" PLEX with Aurum and considering RMT as an extra income. Instead of considering the subscription income insurance it actually was.
And now we have 70+ USD monocles and game breaking items coming to the game SoonÖ. All because CCP simply made the most noobish (and probably most common) business mistake there is: They spent more than they could produce and resorted to debt to pay for their new lifestyle. Which is already blowing up in their faces judging by the desperation they are showing to earn some extra bucks. |
gdjghjhgjfh
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Zelphinine
Edited by: Zelphinine on 25/06/2011 21:54:34
Because a PLEX is a player-to-player transaction.
MT is a player-to-CCP transaction.
Furthermore MT is just one facet of the anger being displayed.
In case you didnt notice (which your post implies)-->
PLEX
$$ CCP > PLEX > ISK/GAME TIME
AUR
$$ CCP > PLEX> AUR > ISK/VANITY ITEMS
|
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:07:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:08:10
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?
Or is all this anger over the possibility that if people can just buy ships in the NEX store they won't bother selling their PLEX on the market and all those long term players with multiple accounts will have to actually pay for those accounts with real money that they don't have instead of just paying for their accounts with PLEX bought with ISK which they have in abundance?
The only difference is that AUR buys directly from CCP ("out of thin air") and doesn't involve the EVE economy.
PLEX already introduced "pay2win" years ago. Let's not be hypocritical about this. I'm really surpirsed about people using the pay2win argument while that discussion was already done with years ago.
|
Twisted Xistance
unholy alliance
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:08:00 -
[13]
Ok...................
> The new currency means that the isk value of plex will be incresed due to the incresed demand on plex, people have already been complaining that the price of plex has gone beyond a joke.
> Micro transaction games are precisely that... micro transaction games. It will seem to many players like CCP is wanting to have its cake and eat it (charging a monthly subscription for a game that is becoming micro transaction)
> Ever played a facebook micro transaction game? If you have you will know that without spending money on the game you cant possibly compete at a high level. The deeper into micro transaction a game goes the more it will punish players who dont want to spend money on micro transactions, which is fair enough except for the fact that as previously mentioned, PEOPLE ARE ALREADY PAYING SUBSCRIPTIONS!
> Eve has always been a game based on skill, superior planning, economic strategy ect, the idea of bringing micro transactions threatens to destroy all of this and replace it with, who spends the most wins
the list goes on and on
<<<<<<My girlfreind left me because I dont have a car... jokes on her, I have a command ship now>>>>>> |
gdjghjhgjfh
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:11:00 -
[14]
Edited by: gdjghjhgjfh on 25/06/2011 22:14:51
Edited by: gdjghjhgjfh on 25/06/2011 22:12:33
Edited by: gdjghjhgjfh on 25/06/2011 22:11:52
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:08:10
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?
Or is all this anger over the possibility that if people can just buy ships in the NEX store they won't bother selling their PLEX on the market and all those long term players with multiple accounts will have to actually pay for those accounts with real money that they don't have instead of just paying for their accounts with PLEX bought with ISK which they have in abundance?
The only difference is that AUR buys directly from CCP ("out of thin air") and doesn't involve the EVE economy.
PLEX already introduced "pay2win" years ago. Let's not be hypocritical about this. I'm really surpirsed about people using the pay2win argument while that discussion was already done with years ago.
you ppl are idiots.
AUR
$$ CCP > PLEX> AUR > VANITY ITEMS > ISK
PLEX comes out of thin air too.
BUY PLEX --> SELL AND MAKE 380 MILLION ISK.
BUY PLEX, TURN IT INTO AUR, BUY A SHIRT, SELL SHIRT ON MARKET, MAKE 150 MILLION ISK.
1.0 AUR WHEN COMPARED TO PLEX PRICES IS WORTH ABOUT 105 MILLION ISK, PPL SELLING SHIRTS 150 MILLION ISK ARE MAKING MORE ISK VIA AUR THAN PLEX.
|
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:11:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:12:52
Originally by: Twisted Xistance
> Eve has always been a game based on skill, superior planning, economic strategy ect, the idea of bringing micro transactions threatens to destroy all of this and replace it with, who spends the most wins.
Oh really? Can you explain?
Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh
AUR and PLEX are both from CCP
CCP SELLS PLEX, AUR COMES FROM PLEX, YOU PEOPLE ARE ******ED.
You forgot part III: the AUR shop item.
And you don't seem very bright yourself if I may say do .. 
|
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:08:10
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?
Or is all this anger over the possibility that if people can just buy ships in the NEX store they won't bother selling their PLEX on the market and all those long term players with multiple accounts will have to actually pay for those accounts with real money that they don't have instead of just paying for their accounts with PLEX bought with ISK which they have in abundance?
The only difference is that AUR buys directly from CCP ("out of thin air") and doesn't involve the EVE economy.
PLEX already introduced "pay2win" years ago. Let's not be hypocritical about this. I'm really surpirsed about people using the pay2win argument while that discussion was already done with years ago.
you ppl are idiots.
AUR and PLEX are both from CCP
CCP SELLS PLEX, AUR COMES FROM PLEX, YOU PEOPLE ARE ******ED.
The problem is not PLEX vs AUR, the problem lies when AUR is used to cut corners like buying Skill Points. Next thing you know, you have 1-day-old alts flying Titans.
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
gdjghjhgjfh
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:16:00 -
[17]
Edited by: gdjghjhgjfh on 25/06/2011 22:16:50
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:12:52
Originally by: Twisted Xistance
> Eve has always been a game based on skill, superior planning, economic strategy ect, the idea of bringing micro transactions threatens to destroy all of this and replace it with, who spends the most wins.
Oh really? Can you explain?
Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh
AUR and PLEX are both from CCP
CCP SELLS PLEX, AUR COMES FROM PLEX, YOU PEOPLE ARE ******ED.
You forgot part III: the AUR shop item.
And you don't seem very bright yourself if I may say do ..
Actually youre not very birght to not see you can sell AUR items in the market.
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:08:10
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?
Or is all this anger over the possibility that if people can just buy ships in the NEX store they won't bother selling their PLEX on the market and all those long term players with multiple accounts will have to actually pay for those accounts with real money that they don't have instead of just paying for their accounts with PLEX bought with ISK which they have in abundance?
The only difference is that AUR buys directly from CCP ("out of thin air") and doesn't involve the EVE economy.
PLEX already introduced "pay2win" years ago. Let's not be hypocritical about this. I'm really surpirsed about people using the pay2win argument while that discussion was already done with years ago.
you ppl are idiots.
AUR and PLEX are both from CCP
CCP SELLS PLEX, AUR COMES FROM PLEX, YOU PEOPLE ARE ******ED.
The problem is not PLEX vs AUR, the problem lies when AUR is used to cut corners like buying Skill Points. Next thing you know, you have 1-day-old alts flying Titans.
again, how does that affect you?
|
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:16:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Whitehound on 25/06/2011 22:17:54
The PLEX is accepted. It means that players who would otherwise buy with goldsellers buy it with CCP. In return did we get a free-to-play model with PLEX.
The NEX introduces new items, which add nothing to the game but an ISK sink. They are vanity items by design. The code needed to display these items on the screen is however now part of the game and needs to be maintained like every other code for years to come and needs to run through quality tests with each new patch. The developers who created the shop and these items could have been used to create new and actual playable game content. Hardly anyone then wants these items. It is said that like 52 monocles were sold. For a comparision: when Incursion was introduced did players trash thousands of ships just to get a shot at the Sanshas. There were complaints about the Incursions, but the players quickly learned not to lose all their ships and how to pew-pew properly at the Sanshas. The protest you see now is however not about the difficulty of some game mechanics, but over something completely useless and from which we cannot learn anything.
All in all is it a waste of resources, for which we have paid for with our subscriptions.
--
|
Tugrath Akers
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:17:00 -
[19]
Because they didn't introduce a sewing (8) skill that I needed to train to level 4 in order to produce pants from PI materials.
I would sell them for $1,000
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:18:00 -
[20]
Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh
Actually youre not very birght to not see you can sell AUR items in the market.
That's the entire problem:
AUR items are not economy-neutral; PLEX are.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Whitehound
The PLEX is accepted.
Oh really? I hate it, I hope they will be gone one day. |
Twisted Xistance
unholy alliance
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:20:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:12:52
Originally by: Twisted Xistance
> Eve has always been a game based on skill, superior planning, economic strategy ect, the idea of bringing micro transactions threatens to destroy all of this and replace it with, who spends the most wins.
Oh really? Can you explain?
Take dark orbit for example: picture yourself in a fleet battle, 20 a side except one side has X5 ammo........ whos going to win......
<<<<<<My girlfreind left me because I dont have a car... jokes on her, I have a command ship now>>>>>> |
gdjghjhgjfh
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:21:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh
Actually youre not very birght to not see you can sell AUR items in the market.
That's the entire problem:
AUR items are not economy-neutral; PLEX are.
apparently from your perspective; using your perspective means you want plex gone too.
nothing bought from CCP (aside subs) is economy-neutral in the game.
Just accept you have no say in this change, give me you items and isk, cancel your sub and go the **** away.
|
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:21:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Whitehound on 25/06/2011 22:24:11
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:19:14
Originally by: Whitehound
The PLEX is accepted.
Oh really? I hate it, I hope they will be gone one day.
Accepted by most... The free-to-play that we got with it means more players for the EVE community. It is not a bad deal.
--
|
digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:22:00 -
[25]
Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh
you ppl are idiots.
AUR and PLEX are both from CCP
CCP SELLS PLEX, AUR COMES FROM PLEX, YOU PEOPLE ARE ******ED.
AUR
True, but there's a difference in that those relative few that are willing to buy dozens of plexes to fund a super carrier or even a titan purchase, still have to train up a character for a couple of years until said character is actually good enough to fly it, or also spend even more money buying said pilot off the forums....
What we're seeing now is something different in that there's nothing stopping CCP from selling skill points, or faction standing or even special ships for aurum, and the worst of all is that no matter how many times a ship is destroyed in game, the pilot never loses it since it was bought with manual transactions(same as with clothes and that stupid monocle), so it screws up one of the main gameplay elements of EVE since it was released in 2003....It's death penalty.
Other pilots that got their ship and fittings thru the usual means and lose that in pvp, have to buy it all over again, so it creates 2 sets of rules depending on how much money one is willing to spend on manual transactions, versus the person going at it the regular way....
|
Benri Konpaku
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:22:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
PLEX already introduced "pay2win" years ago. Let's not be hypocritical about this. I'm really surpirsed about people using the pay2win argument while that discussion was already done with years ago.
Not really. It was pay to not work for isk. The ones winning (and only game time) were the players who knew how to make isk while the people willing to fork money for plex only ensured CCP had other players playing using PLEX.
Much better than having a bunch of chinese or whatever groups hogging and duping the game to try to create things out of nowhere without passing through the players and the system.
Which is precisely what Aurum does and will do. It takes away playtime and converts it to items which bypass EVE completely and then are deployed magically in your hangar. In other words instead of having RMTers duping stuff it will now be CCP joining them instead. And then it becomes a war to pay for enhanced Aurum items just to keep up.
This is on top of paying your monthly fee.
Now, you wont notice much of this at first. Like Akita said, some players have so much isk right now they wont really notice trading PLEX for Aurum. For now. But what happens when PLEX supplies start falling after enough Aurum trade? What happens once PLEX prices start going up (in isk) just to get that (now required) insta-win ammo or ships only obtainable through NeX?
That's when you'll see what P2W really is and what it does to the game. |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:23:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:28:07
Originally by: Twisted Xistance
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Twisted Xistance
> Eve has always been a game based on skill, superior planning, economic strategy ect, the idea of bringing micro transactions threatens to destroy all of this and replace it with, who spends the most wins.
Oh really? Can you explain?
Take dark orbit for example: picture yourself in a fleet battle, 20 a side except one side has X5 ammo........ whos going to win......
Well there's SP as well .. good luck winning a battle with 50k SP!
Originally by: Benri Konpaku
Like Akita said, some players have so much isk right now they wont really notice trading PLEX for Aurum. For now. But what happens when PLEX supplies start falling after enough Aurum trade? What happens once PLEX prices start going up (in isk) just to get that (now required) insta-win ammo or ships only obtainable through NeX?
That's when you'll see what P2W really is and what it does to the game.
I agree with this. But that doesn't conflict with the notion that you can now, at this moment, spend RL money to get a supercap pilot and ship.
That some people may actually pay so much PLEX with ISK they accumulated in-game doesn't take away from this.
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh
apparently from your perspective; using your perspective means you want plex gone too.
What perspective is that?
PLEX don't need to go since they're economy-neutral.
Quote:
nothing bought from CCP (aside subs) is economy-neutral in the game.
àand that's exactly why PLEX are economy-neutral. They're just call options for game time.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
The problem is not PLEX vs AUR, the problem lies when AUR is used to cut corners like buying Skill Points. Next thing you know, you have 1-day-old alts flying Titans.
Pff you can do that already. What's the difference?
Show me.
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Harcosi
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:25:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
I don't get all the upset over the possibility of CCP deciding to sell ships and other useful items in the NEX store. Sure that means that rich noobs can just buy ships with their credit card without having to sit around and mine or salvage in game. I can see how that would be upsetting to people.
But PLEX already exists. As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?
Or is all this anger over the possibility that if people can just buy ships in the NEX store they won't bother selling their PLEX on the market and all those long term players with multiple accounts will have to actually pay for those accounts with real money that they don't have instead of just paying for their accounts with PLEX bought with ISK which they have in abundance?
Somebody MADE those battleships that you can buy.
Someone manufactured those items using the minerals.
Someone transported those minerals.
Someone mined the minerals.
If you can buy a ship with a MT, what's the point of doing anything?
|
Sirinda
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:26:00 -
[31]
Basically:
$ = PLEX
\\
ship/mod/whatever
//
Mining = refining = building
Now, with the NeX store, the fear is that sooner or later, this makeshift graph will look like this:
$ = PLEX = ship/mod/whatever
Therefore bypassing bypassing the market and any occupations that actually produce stuff from ingame activities, therefore turning the game into a P2W s**tbox.
I hope I've managed to answer your question.
|
Twisted Xistance
unholy alliance
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:27:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Twisted Xistance on 25/06/2011 22:29:07
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Twisted Xistance
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Twisted Xistance
> Eve has always been a game based on skill, superior planning, economic strategy ect, the idea of bringing micro transactions threatens to destroy all of this and replace it with, who spends the most wins.
Oh really? Can you explain?
Take dark orbit for example: picture yourself in a fleet battle, 20 a side except one side has X5 ammo........ whos going to win......
Well there's SP as well .. good luck winning a battle with 50k SP!
Take into account that pay for ships will almost definately have very little sp requirements in comparison to the higher teir ships we pilot now, not to mention that if someone can afford to splash out on the new currency then they will more than likely be able to afford to splash out on a new toon to via the character bazaar.
Its pretty much common knowledge that its NOT just going to be vanity items at all, its a blatent attempt to lull the player base into accepting micro transactions as the norm while continueing to charge a subscription fee
<<<<<<My girlfreind left me because I dont have a car... jokes on her, I have a command ship now>>>>>> |
Kahza Kado
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:33:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:19:34
Originally by: Whitehound
The PLEX is accepted.
Oh really? I hate it, I hope they will be gone one day.
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
The problem is not PLEX vs AUR, the problem lies when AUR is used to cut corners like buying Skill Points. Next thing you know, you have 1-day-old alts flying Titans.
Pff you can do that already. What's the difference?
If your refering to being able to purchase characters on the bazaar then your dead wrong. Someone had to take the time to to train that character. You cannot buy SKILL POINTS with PLEX. Show me a one day old character up for sale that has the skills to fly a dread let alone a BS.
|
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:35:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Kahza Kado
If your refering to being able to purchase characters on the bazaar then your dead wrong. Someone had to take the time to to train that character. You cannot buy SKILL POINTS with PLEX. Show me a one day old character up for sale that has the skills to fly a dread let alone a BS.
You're nitpicking. You know what I mean.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:37:00 -
[35]
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.
|
Kahza Kado
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:37:00 -
[36]
No, I'm not. Seriously show me how you can by skill points with plex with out buying a character that someone else has trained up to sell. Please!
|
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:38:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Kahza Kado
If your refering to being able to purchase characters on the bazaar then your dead wrong. Someone had to take the time to to train that character. You cannot buy SKILL POINTS with PLEX. Show me a one day old character up for sale that has the skills to fly a dread let alone a BS.
You're nitpicking. You know what I mean.
No, I doubt you can see the difference, and that is disturbing.
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:42:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:42:45
Originally by: Kahza Kado
No, I'm not. Seriously show me how you can by skill points with plex with out buying a character that someone else has trained up to sell. Please!
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
No, I doubt you can see the difference, and that is disturbing.
Ok *sigh* I was not expressing myself accurately.
Of course I meant: you can buy a high SP character on the bazaar.
For instance Estel Arador is for sale now.
|
Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:42:00 -
[39]
Current System:
If you buy uber elite modules and ships in game, even if you use Isk from PLEX sales, at some point, a PLAYER had to grind out that Isk you are spending, and PLAYER had to hunt down and kill that officer for that drop.
AUR system:
Stuff appears out of thin air in exchange for RL cash, no PLAYER EFFORT involved ANYWHERE.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
|
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:43:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
But PLEX already exists. As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?
The major difference between ships bought with ISK-from-PLEX versus ships bought with Aurum is that the ISK-bought ship was manufactured by another player, who uses that ISK to pay the people who mined the ore, manufactured subsystems, salvaged sleeper wrecks, researched blueprints, etc. Thus ISK-from-PLEX drives the EVE economy and gives manufacturers and industrialists the demand for their services.
Ships bought with Aurum just magically appear in the game. Noone manufactured them. Noone was involved in gathering resources, noone's wallet is going to become fatter when a thousand Aurum-bought ships get destroyed in a major battle.
The NeX could have been handled differently, with the store offering BPCs for example, to keep the industrialists and manufacturers involved in the game. The route that CCP appears to have decided on is to cater to convenience. Player deposits money in CCP's bank account, new ship appears in their hangar.
Pretty soon, there will be no need to buy minerals. Mission runners will just put in their $10/month to have unlimited ammunition dumped straight in the hold of their ship. Ammunition manufacturers will have no market, so they'll have to find some way of funding their game play.
[ Australian players join channel ANZAC ] |
Kahza Kado
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:45:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tla Atij
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.
Not really.. someone has to train to "do" the invention. And even then Invention is used to produce T2 BPC's.. not BPC's in general. Those are two different mechanics and offering them on the NEX could upset or ruin the economy for both of them.
|
Malachor Jankor
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:46:00 -
[42]
I didn't actually read the leaked internal memo that brought all this on.
Was there actually a suggestion that they might sell skill points on the NEX market too? Is there any proof that they will be selling anything other than grossly over priced vanity items?
And just out of curiosity if you buy one of those ridiculous monocles for $80 if you get podded do you lose the monocle too? I haven't been able to figure that out yet.
|
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:47:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Of course I meant: you can buy a high SP character on the bazaar.
For instance Estel Arador is for sale now.
You can only buy high SP characters when there are high SP characters for sale. You get whatever SP allocation those characters were trained with. No doubt we will see a "SP refund for Aurum" process sometime soon, along with standings-for-Aurum as detailed in the "Greed is Good" newsletter.
[ Australian players join channel ANZAC ] |
Anne Arqui
Minmatar
Diamonds in the Rough Enterprises
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:49:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
No doubt we will see a "SP refund for Aurum" process sometime soon, along with standings-for-Aurum as detailed in the "Greed is Good" newsletter.
I hope so. And a bloodline change!! 
|
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:51:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Birdy Cephon on 25/06/2011 22:51:51
And according to CCP, they're gonna just "tough it out", no matter how much players protest.
That's their true definition of "Fearless".
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:51:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.
Not really.. someone has to train to "do" the invention. And even then Invention is used to produce T2 BPC's.. not BPC's in general. Those are two different mechanics and offering them on the NEX could upset or ruin the economy for both of them.
OK then, what if you have to trade in datacores or whatever is used in invention (I have no idea) for the NeX BPC?
|
Kahza Kado
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:52:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:42:45
Originally by: Kahza Kado
No, I'm not. Seriously show me how you can by skill points with plex with out buying a character that someone else has trained up to sell. Please!
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
No, I doubt you can see the difference, and that is disturbing.
Ok *sigh* I was not expressing myself accurately.
Of course I meant: you can buy a high SP character on the bazaar.
For instance Estel Arador is for sale now.
Thanks for re-clarifying that.. But it is still way different than being able to buy max skill points day one of character creation and stepping into a titan or any other ship you might want.
And that is the issue.. CCP, while saying it isn't policy, they still got caught with their pants down discussing the possibility of introducing just such things as this. The leaked newsletter is proof of that. Then not answering a direct question about plans to introduce "pay to win" items (such as skill points, standings, special ships and items that are not just for vanity)and pretty much ignoring the CSM, has only fanned the flames of this literal bonfire.
|
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:53:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Birdy Cephon on 25/06/2011 22:53:50
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.
Not really.. someone has to train to "do" the invention. And even then Invention is used to produce T2 BPC's.. not BPC's in general. Those are two different mechanics and offering them on the NEX could upset or ruin the economy for both of them.
OK then, what if you have to trade in datacores or whatever is used in invention (I have no idea) for the NeX BPC?
They did say at one point they will have a function where you could trade in some items plus some AUR to get better items, namely the Scorpion. Where a regular Scorpion + AUR = Reskinned Scorpion.
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Eian
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:54:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Zelphinine
Edited by: Zelphinine on 25/06/2011 21:54:34
Because a PLEX is a player-to-player transaction.
MT is a player-to-CCP transaction.
Furthermore MT is just one facet of the anger being displayed.
PLEX is player-to-CCP transaction. Then they player can choose to have a player-to-player transaction with said PLEX.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:55:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
Edited by: Birdy Cephon on 25/06/2011 22:53:50
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.
Not really.. someone has to train to "do" the invention. And even then Invention is used to produce T2 BPC's.. not BPC's in general. Those are two different mechanics and offering them on the NEX could upset or ruin the economy for both of them.
OK then, what if you have to trade in datacores or whatever is used in invention (I have no idea) for the NeX BPC?
They did say at one point they will have a function where you could trade in some items plus some AUR to get better items, namely the Scorpion. Where a regular Scorpion + AUR = Reskinned Scorpion.
So if you trade in whatever is needed for invention, and the real $$$ only removes the waiting time (for inevtion/invention skills) how is the economy affected? It is accelerated yeah, but is that bad?
|
Kahza Kado
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 22:59:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.
Not really.. someone has to train to "do" the invention. And even then Invention is used to produce T2 BPC's.. not BPC's in general. Those are two different mechanics and offering them on the NEX could upset or ruin the economy for both of them.
OK then, what if you have to trade in datacores or whatever is used in invention (I have no idea) for the NeX BPC?
Now your just doing the same thing as the LP stores are doing now.. " hand in this and this and this and you can have this BPC" Granted I haven't seen any of them handing out T2 stuff but still, it takes some effort on the players part to acquire the stuff to hand in. When you introduce that then your still providing a way to instantly give "new character A" who probably has no skills to use them (until he buys the sp from the NEX if CCP does do this) that "Vet player B" has worked his a$$ off to get. That's still an unfair advantage.
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:00:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Tla Atij
So if you trade in whatever is needed for invention, and the real $$$ only removes the waiting time (for inevtion/invention skills) how is the economy affected? It is accelerated yeah, but is that bad?
Yes. It breaks the supply balancing mechanics of invented BPCs.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:00:00 -
[53]
PLEX don't cost sixty bux. 
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:03:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
What if they sell BPCs in the NeX, that won't bypass the economy. Sort of like invention.
Not really.. someone has to train to "do" the invention. And even then Invention is used to produce T2 BPC's.. not BPC's in general. Those are two different mechanics and offering them on the NEX could upset or ruin the economy for both of them.
OK then, what if you have to trade in datacores or whatever is used in invention (I have no idea) for the NeX BPC?
Now your just doing the same thing as the LP stores are doing now.. " hand in this and this and this and you can have this BPC" Granted I haven't seen any of them handing out T2 stuff but still, it takes some effort on the players part to acquire the stuff to hand in. When you introduce that then your still providing a way to instantly give "new character A" who probably has no skills to use them (until he buys the sp from the NEX if CCP does do this) that "Vet player B" has worked his a$$ off to get. That's still an unfair advantage.
That's under the assumption that NeX ships/mods will be completely unrestricted, skill wise, which I don't think will be the case.
Also, isn't the point of selling PLEX to remove the ISK grind for people who can afford it? In the same manner, wouldn't the point of selling NeX BPCs (like in LP stores) be to remove the LP grind for people who can afford it?
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:07:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tla Atij
So if you trade in whatever is needed for invention, and the real $$$ only removes the waiting time (for inevtion/invention skills) how is the economy affected? It is accelerated yeah, but is that bad?
Yes. It breaks the supply balancing mechanics of invented BPCs.
Right, there would be less invention material going to actual inventors, since some would go to the NeX instead. I get it. The question now is, if the NeX prices are high enough, would the amount of diverted invention material really impact the current inventors?
|
Herping yourDerp
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:11:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:08:10
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?
Or is all this anger over the possibility that if people can just buy ships in the NEX store they won't bother selling their PLEX on the market and all those long term players with multiple accounts will have to actually pay for those accounts with real money that they don't have instead of just paying for their accounts with PLEX bought with ISK which they have in abundance?
The only difference is that AUR buys directly from CCP ("out of thin air") and doesn't involve the EVE economy.
PLEX already introduced "pay2win" years ago. Let's not be hypocritical about this. I'm really surpirsed about people using the pay2win argument while that discussion was already done with years ago.
if i buy 20000 plex from CCP the market price will crash.
if i buy a ship i have a new ship. i can proceed to kill other players and when i lose said ship its ok im a rich guy IRL so i can buy a new one. oh and my ship is better since it can't be made in game ;)
|
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:12:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Herping yourDerp
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 22:08:10
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
As a noob I can buy a $20 PLEX and sell it in game for about 340 million ISK. I can buy several battleships with 340 million ISK or countless frigates. What is the difference? Hasn't PLEX been around for a while now? DId people protest to this level when it was introduced?
Or is all this anger over the possibility that if people can just buy ships in the NEX store they won't bother selling their PLEX on the market and all those long term players with multiple accounts will have to actually pay for those accounts with real money that they don't have instead of just paying for their accounts with PLEX bought with ISK which they have in abundance?
The only difference is that AUR buys directly from CCP ("out of thin air") and doesn't involve the EVE economy.
PLEX already introduced "pay2win" years ago. Let's not be hypocritical about this. I'm really surpirsed about people using the pay2win argument while that discussion was already done with years ago.
if i buy 20000 plex from CCP the market price will crash.
if i buy a ship i have a new ship. i can proceed to kill other players and when i lose said ship its ok im a rich guy IRL so i can buy a new one. oh and my ship is better since it can't be made in game ;)
Can I have a few PLEX? :)
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:15:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Tla Atij
So if you trade in whatever is needed for invention, and the real $$$ only removes the waiting time (for inevtion/invention skills) how is the economy affected? It is accelerated yeah, but is that bad?
Removing the waiting time and providing an unlimited supply both deleteriously impact upon the player-driven economy. The fact that invention requires scarce resources means that there is not an unlimited supply of T2 products. People have to set up and maintain POSes to run the invention labs. They have to keep market orders active for all the consumables. Someone has to collect the consumables such as POS fuel, datacores and decryptors. Someone has to spend the time researching and copying blueprints to feed into the invention process.
Thus the outcome of the invention process is player driven. If no player does it, there is no T2 product. Or more to the point, when you buy a T2 product, you are funding the industries of many players.
When you buy a NeX product, you are not participating in the player-driven economy. Your input is lost, and the player driven economy suffers. Imagine if you and your friends are playing a game of scrabble: if you pull "Q" out of the tile bag, that means everyone else is playing without the Q, and more significantly you are now required to find a "U" - this is part of the challenge of Scrabble. What happens if the game is changed so that you can buy a "U" at any time, for $0.50? Is that still Scrabble? No it's not. It's a board game involving spelling words using tiles, but the restrictions on the tiles mean that the game of Scrabble is actually a challenge and therefore interesting to play.
Imagine what would happen to poker tournaments if you were allowed to buy an Ace at any time?
Imagine being a null sec alliance trying to drive out the previous occupants of a system, but you can't lay siege to their station because they just keep buying more ships from the NeX. What point would there be to military tactics, intel, subterfuge, shock and awe à when everything that you've blown up gets replaced instantly with no opportunity for you to interrupt the supply chain?
Where is the fun in that?
[ Australian players join channel ANZAC ] |
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:19:00 -
[59]
But lets say you have to trade in a T2 blueprint + data cores + AUR to get a T3? Would that work?
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:19:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Tla Atij
The question now is, if the NeX prices are high enough, would the amount of diverted invention material really impact the current inventors?
The only way that ships bought through NeX are not going to impact the economy is if they just sit in hangars, owned by people who just want to collect shiny things.
As soon as someone undocks in a NeX-bought ship, they're going to be a target to pirates.
[ Australian players join channel ANZAC ] |
Kahza Kado
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:19:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Tla Atij
Also, isn't the point of selling PLEX to remove the ISK grind for people who can afford it?
As far as I know PLEX was introduced as an alternate way to pay for your accounts originally. The only thing buying plex with cash and converting it to isk does is to give you, the player, a means to buy more expensive stuff faster than if you were to actually work for it. The stuff you buy still has to be made by the player base or someone still had to grind out the missions to get the standings to get that Navy Issue Raven to put it up for sell.
Originally by: Tla Atij
In the same manner, wouldn't the point of selling NeX BPCs (like in LP stores) be to remove the LP grind for people who can afford it?
The point is the the whole idea for the LP store is in the name. LP= Loyalty Points. and those LP are what you get for running missions for the different factions.. If you do what your proposing then why have the LP store? as for that matter why have missions to run? See, its all a vicious circle.. you do one thing and it unbalances another.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:24:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Tla Atij
So if you trade in whatever is needed for invention, and the real $$$ only removes the waiting time (for inevtion/invention skills) how is the economy affected? It is accelerated yeah, but is that bad?
Removing the waiting time and providing an unlimited supply both deleteriously impact upon the player-driven economy. The fact that invention requires scarce resources means that there is not an unlimited supply of T2 products. People have to set up and maintain POSes to run the invention labs. They have to keep market orders active for all the consumables. Someone has to collect the consumables such as POS fuel, datacores and decryptors. Someone has to spend the time researching and copying blueprints to feed into the invention process.
Thus the outcome of the invention process is player driven. If no player does it, there is no T2 product. Or more to the point, when you buy a T2 product, you are funding the industries of many players.
When you buy a NeX product, you are not participating in the player-driven economy. Your input is lost, and the player driven economy suffers. Imagine if you and your friends are playing a game of scrabble: if you pull "Q" out of the tile bag, that means everyone else is playing without the Q, and more significantly you are now required to find a "U" - this is part of the challenge of Scrabble. What happens if the game is changed so that you can buy a "U" at any time, for $0.50? Is that still Scrabble? No it's not. It's a board game involving spelling words using tiles, but the restrictions on the tiles mean that the game of Scrabble is actually a challenge and therefore interesting to play.
Imagine what would happen to poker tournaments if you were allowed to buy an Ace at any time?
That sounds good, but only under the assumption that the NeX BPCs will actually be of T2 ships. If they are of Ishukone Scorpions (or whatever, anything new,) then the current inventors' market is not stolen from them, and they still have a purpose to exist.
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Imagine being a null sec alliance trying to drive out the previous occupants of a system, but you can't lay siege to their station because they just keep buying more ships from the NeX. What point would there be to military tactics, intel, subterfuge, shock and awe à when everything that you've blown up gets replaced instantly with no opportunity for you to interrupt the supply chain?
Where is the fun in that?
If the NeX "magics" ships into existence then yeah. But if it requires trade-ins, supply chains can still be disrupted by the attacking alliance.
Also, another assumption is that IRL money is an unlimited resource, which it isn't.
|
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:26:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 23:27:25
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Imagine if you and your friends are playing a game of scrabble: if you pull "Q" out of the tile bag, that means everyone else is playing without the Q, and more significantly you are now required to find a "U" - this is part of the challenge of Scrabble. What happens if the game is changed so that you can buy a "U" at any time, for $0.50? Is that still Scrabble? No it's not. It's a board game involving spelling words using tiles, but the restrictions on the tiles mean that the game of Scrabble is actually a challenge and therefore interesting to play.
Imagine what would happen to poker tournaments if you were allowed to buy an Ace at any time?
Imagine you have to wait 2 years to be able to pull a "Q" or Ace at all?
Personally I wouldn't buy ships or other stuff but I'd definitely buy SP for AUR if CCP makes it available.
After 30 million SP I'm a bit fed up with waiting for skills because I still can't fly or fit those ships.
|
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:30:00 -
[64]
I would be against it if they allow AUR to SP or LP or Standing transactions. But I would be all for it if they allow Item + AUR for reskin or upgrade trade-ins.
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:32:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
Also, isn't the point of selling PLEX to remove the ISK grind for people who can afford it?
As far as I know PLEX was introduced as an alternate way to pay for your accounts originally. The only thing buying plex with cash and converting it to isk does is to give you, the player, a means to buy more expensive stuff faster than if you were to actually work for it. The stuff you buy still has to be made by the player base or someone still had to grind out the missions to get the standings to get that Navy Issue Raven to put it up for sell.
Actually PLEX was introduced to force RMTers out of business, to give CCP a control over the IRL value of ISK. Don't buy ISK from Chinese farmers, buy from CCP instead.
Yes, stuff bought with PLEX ISK is made by players, but so would ships made from NeX BPCs, with in-game minerals, etc.
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
In the same manner, wouldn't the point of selling NeX BPCs (like in LP stores) be to remove the LP grind for people who can afford it?
The point is the the whole idea for the LP store is in the name. LP= Loyalty Points. and those LP are what you get for running missions for the different factions.. If you do what your proposing then why have the LP store? as for that matter why have missions to run? See, its all a vicious circle.. you do one thing and it unbalances another.
Yes, the LP is gained by grinding missions, just like ISK is gained by grinding missions/belts/whatever. My question still stands. If PLEX removes one grind, why wouldn't the NeX remove another by giving BPCs? CCP's philosophy so far is:
Have time to grind? Grind and get stuff.
Don't have time? Pay $$$ and get stuff.
This started with PLEX, it's too late to move away from this philosophy now.
|
Nano J
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:33:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tla Atij
So if you trade in whatever is needed for invention, and the real $$$ only removes the waiting time (for inevtion/invention skills) how is the economy affected? It is accelerated yeah, but is that bad?
Yes. It breaks the supply balancing mechanics of invented BPCs.
Right, there would be less invention material going to actual inventors, since some would go to the NeX instead. I get it. The question now is, if the NeX prices are high enough, would the amount of diverted invention material really impact the current inventors?
Set the price too high, and it won't be bought... CCP won't do that. Any item that could be bought with isk would have to be sold on the nex at a converted rate lower than that of the PLEX, otherwise people would just use PLEX sales to get the item since it would be cheaper.
let's say, for example (and these numbers have been pulled out my buttocks):
CNR = $25 (worth of aurum, about 1.25 PLEX's)
PLEX (at any random moment) = 350kk isk/$20
CNR = 350kk isk
why spend $25 on a CNR when you can buy one for "$20 worth of isk"
Set it at current or lower converted prices, and it will lock down the market for the item.
also for example:
CNR = (on nex) $15
PLEX = 350kk isk/$20
CNR (on isk market for 350kk) = 1 PLEX = $20
why pay isk on the market for a CNR, when you can buy a PLEX with your isk and convert it into a CNR with a bit left over? every player involved in the creation of the CNR on the isk market gets undercut by an item created from nothing.
|
Mr Mickey
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:34:00 -
[67]
ITS BECUASE YOUR A CCP ALT??????????
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:35:00 -
[68]
@Nano J
Exactly why I said they wouldn't NeX CNRs, Navy Megas, etc, instead they would do Ishukone Scorpions, Golden Retrievers, etc.
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:37:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Tla Atij
Right, there would be less invention material going to actual inventors, since some would go to the NeX instead. I get it. The question now is, if the NeX prices are high enough, would the amount of diverted invention material really impact the current inventors?
Doesn't matter. it's still bad for the economy.
Anyway. It's very simple: PLEX is economy neutral, AUR items are not.
PLEXes are just a circumscript way of getting game time. They pass through the market, but don't actually add anything because they come out at the other end untouched. AUR items don't do that. They just add to the market ù they enter it and stay there.
To which degree this is bad depends on what the AUR Item does and what can be done with (or to) it.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:38:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Mr Mickey
ITS BECUASE YOUR A CCP ALT??????????
I'm not. I'm not an industrialist so I'm attempting to understand how NeX BPCs would harm the player-run industry. Based on this understanding I will decide if I unsub or not when/if the "ships for $" move comes.
|
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:38:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Tla Atij
@Nano J
Exactly why I said they wouldn't NeX CNRs, Navy Megas, etc, instead they would do Ishukone Scorpions, Golden Retrievers, etc.
Golden Retrievers? Seriously? That's like encouraging Hulkageddon. 
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Kahza Kado
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:41:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Personally I wouldn't buy ships or other stuff but I'd definitely buy SP for AUR if CCP makes it available.
After 30 million SP I'm a bit fed up with waiting for skills because I still can't fly or fit those ships.
Then you would be getting the unfair advantage the rest of us don't have or can't afford. That right there is what pay-to-win is all about. Where is the satisfaction of accomplishment? I mean really why play the game if you can immediately buy your way to the top? Heck.. Do you think it's fair for a football team to be able to buy the Superbowl Trophy? Or a hockey team just skip the playoffs and buy the Stanley Cup? I am not flaming you, really I am not.. I am just trying to understand that mentality.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:46:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tla Atij
Right, there would be less invention material going to actual inventors, since some would go to the NeX instead. I get it. The question now is, if the NeX prices are high enough, would the amount of diverted invention material really impact the current inventors?
Doesn't matter. it's still bad for the economy.
Anyway. It's very simple: PLEX is economy neutral, AUR items are not.
PLEXes are just a circumscript way of getting game time. They pass through the market, but don't actually add anything because they come out at the other end untouched. AUR items don't do that. They just add to the market ù they enter it and stay there.
To which degree this is bad depends on what the AUR Item does and what can be done with (or to) it.
Will AUR items circumvent the economy if they are BPCs? BPCs still support miners, traders, haulers, manufacturers, industry in general, do they not?
Please explain how adding BPCs of new ships (ishukone scorpion, etc) harm the economy. This way the NeX doesn't compete with invented (T2) BPCs, or normal BPCs, and they don't "magic in" new minerals/isk. How do they "add to" the market, like you say they do? If anything, more minerals will have to be mined to satisfy their manufacturing demand, but that's pretty much it.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:54:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Personally I wouldn't buy ships or other stuff but I'd definitely buy SP for AUR if CCP makes it available.
After 30 million SP I'm a bit fed up with waiting for skills because I still can't fly or fit those ships.
Then you would be getting the unfair advantage the rest of us don't have or can't afford. That right there is what pay-to-win is all about. Where is the satisfaction of accomplishment? [snip]
I feel for you, I really do. But this happens already. Let's imagine the Golden Retriever  which costs 3,500 AUR (1 PLEX.)
I could buy it on the market for 400 mil ISK (the value of 1 PLEX)
You could buy it with 3,500 AUR (also the value of 1 PLEX)
This is already happening. NOW. With non-aur ships.
What I would really object to is skill-points for ISK, or standings for ISK, or other such nonsense. But as for ships, the damage was done when they introduced PLEX, and there's no going back.
|
Nano J
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:55:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Tla Atij
@Nano J
Exactly why I said they wouldn't NeX CNRs, Navy Megas, etc, instead they would do Ishukone Scorpions, Golden Retrievers, etc.
Even still, the Ishukone Scorpion that would be purchased would deny the sale of another ship. That Golden Retriever basically purchased with cash would probably mean one less sale of a Chihuahua... or hulk. Unless you mean that these would be pure cosmetics ships that would end up being something like "Scorpion + 30k aurum = Ishukone Scorpion." I think something like that would be fine, as long as only the image of the ship had changed, and not its game-play specifications. CCP had always charged us to change our portrait, a little cash for vanity never hurt anyone, as long as no "physical" item has been added.
|
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:56:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Birdy Cephon on 25/06/2011 23:57:25
I think what would be cool as well, is if we could reverse-engineer T1 ships into BPOs.
Or we could rent research/development slots in Hi-Sec stations for AUR.
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Republica Winder
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:57:00 -
[77]
I not only oppose aurum, I want plex removed.
Make people earn their money THEMSELVES ingame. The plex system fuels botters and causes inflation on the market.
CCP should have been ecstatic that they had gotten away with the plex item, and been content with the extra money that brought in. Aurum represents extreme greed overreach, especially with $70 items in the store. One that only an insane person would have ever thought they'd get away with without MASSIVE backlash happening.
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 23:58:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Tippia on 25/06/2011 23:59:30
Originally by: Tla Atij
Will AUR items circumvent the economy if they are BPCs? BPCs still support miners, traders, haulers, manufacturers, industry in general, do they not?
Yes. You're still using $$ to create value out of nowhere.
If you take a scorp (or the equivalent minerals) and turn it into an IW Scorp, you have added value to the market that only exists because you've paid cash for it. The miners, traders etc. are still involved, but that extra value is only there because of that $$.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:00:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tla Atij
Will AUR items circumvent the economy if they are BPCs? BPCs still support miners, traders, haulers, manufacturers, industry in general, do they not?
Yes. You're still using $$ to create value out of nowhere.
If you take a scorp (or the equivalent minerals) and turn it into an IW Scorp, you have added value to the market that only exists because you've paid cash for it.
That's not true. The value is just transferred from real money to virtual item. The same money could also be transferred into anything else you do in EVE. You're not creating something out of nothing.
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:01:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Nano J
Originally by: Tla Atij
@Nano J
Exactly why I said they wouldn't NeX CNRs, Navy Megas, etc, instead they would do Ishukone Scorpions, Golden Retrievers, etc.
Even still, the Ishukone Scorpion that would be purchased would deny the sale of another ship. That Golden Retriever basically purchased with cash would probably mean one less sale of a Chihuahua... or hulk.
Assuming the Golden Retriever has a bonus over the regular one then not really, they would not compete, because they would be aimed at different target audiences, through their price tag.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:03:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 00:04:55
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 25/06/2011 23:59:30
Originally by: Tla Atij
Will AUR items circumvent the economy if they are BPCs? BPCs still support miners, traders, haulers, manufacturers, industry in general, do they not?
Yes. You're still using $$ to create value out of nowhere.
If you take a scorp (or the equivalent minerals) and turn it into an IW Scorp, you have added value to the market that only exists because you've paid cash for it. The miners, traders etc. are still involved, but that extra value is only there because of that $$.
There is no extra value. My PLEX, instead of being sold on the market for 400 mil, was transformed into a BPC worth 400 mil. Where is the extra value from?
In both cases I have something worth 400 mil ISK.
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:04:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 00:06:09
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
That's not true. The value is just transferred from real money to virtual item. The same money could also be transferred into anything else you do in EVE. You're not creating something out of nothing.
Yes you are.
$$á+ Scorp → Extra value Scorp.
Remove the Scorp from both sides (which is created the same way regardless) and you have created that extra value in the market out of nowhere, just because you throw cash at it.
Originally by: Tla Atij
There is no extra value.
Then the AUR item serves no purpose and will never be used. If an IW Scorp holds no additional value to a normal scorp, then it is pointless.
Quote:
My PLEX, instead of being sold on the market for 400 mil, was transformed into a BPC worth 400 mil. Where is the extra value from?
The extra value comes from the product you create with that BPC.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:05:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Birdy Cephon on 26/06/2011 00:05:49
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
That's not true. The value is just transferred from real money to virtual item. The same money could also be transferred into anything else you do in EVE. You're not creating something out of nothing.
Yes you are.
$$á+ Scorp → Extra value Scorp.
Remove the Scorp from both sides (which is created the same way regardless) and you have created that extra value in the market out of nowhere, just because you throw cash at it.
Well apparently you don't value money then. Maybe you could start by actually earning some for yourself.
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Kahza Kado
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:06:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Tla Atij
I'm not an industrialist so I'm attempting to understand how NeX BPCs would harm the player-run industry. Based on this understanding I will decide if I unsub or not when/if the "ships for $" move comes.
First off you have to keep BPC's completely separate from all this.. All BPC's (even T2 and T3)are player made. Period. The only exception to this are the Faction Ships and Faction ammo/mods. Which are traded through LP stores and then either put up on contract to sell or used to build the ships/ammo/mods that can then be put up on open market or contracts. Even then those faction BPC's are worked for to get by a player. BPO's on the other hand are not made. But any BPO's offered on the NEX should not have any other advantage over any other BPO in the game save vanity.. And as all BPO's are, they should, once bought, also be allowed to be traded openly through contracts and the Market. Because any Industrialist will not just leave a NEX bought BPO as is. We will research it and copy it and make many many BPC's out of it.
If you want to offer those on the NEX, fine then the LP store and missions should go bye bye because there really is no use for them anymore. And if that happens the the content (what little of it there is) gone bye bye too.
If you want ships with different paint jobs fine.. sell the paint on NEX and have it able to apply to any ship. BPO's? fine allow them to become player commodities just like any other BPO. BUT, If that BPO produces anything that is an unfair advantage such as ammo that ignores all resistances or does more damage than T2 or Faction ammo then it's a no go deal.. that would be an unfair advantage.
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:10:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 00:10:54
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
Well apparently you don't value money then.
You are confusing what value I'm talking about.
I'm saying that AUR Items add value to the in-game market. Value that didn't exist before.
Look at the flow chart again. All the items and ISK in there constitutes the total value of the in-game market. All of that value is created in-game. When you create an AUR item, value is added from a source that doesn't exist in-game ù it is added out of nowhere.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:11:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Linar Mardolak on 26/06/2011 00:12:14
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh
apparently from your perspective; using your perspective means you want plex gone too.
What perspective is that?
PLEX don't need to go since they're economy-neutral.
Quote:
nothing bought from CCP (aside subs) is economy-neutral in the game.
àand that's exactly why PLEX are economy-neutral. They're just call options for game time.
I'm fine with PLEX going away, not because they are an actual problem (I understand perfectly well how they work with the player economy, and I think that they are positive when isolated from misunderstandings like the OP has), but because of threads like this and the fuzzy thinking behind them.
edit: removed a double "well"
|
Ariel Nova
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:12:00 -
[87]
 you don't get it?!?
easy, I have isk.. you have game time. we trade it in the market. I continue my subscription and you get a new ship or a bunch of exotic dancers. The transaction stays in the universe.
NeX system.. first Aurum is not effected by ANY in game market. The value of Aurum is configured by CCP. I'll explain:
A game Time Card is $35.00. It creates 2 Plex for a real value of $17.50.
If a player applies that Plex to game time CCP actually benefits over a CC transaction as a subscription is only $15.00/mo. when a PLEX was created, CCP had to either continue your subscription or donate it to charity on the PLEX owners behalf. (PLEX for Good)
Now, given the above real value of a PLEX, you can calculate the real value of AURUM. 1 PLEX = 3500 Aurum. 17.50(PLEX)/3500(Aurum) = 200(Aurum) or $1.00 = 200 Aurum.
Here's the best part, no matter the market value of PLEX or the market value of anything bought with Aurum.. $1.00 will ALWAYS equal 200 Aurum unless CCP wants it to change.
Given the latest CCP attitude you can bet $1.00 will never equal more than 200 Aurum, but if people were eating up items in the NeX like candy you can bet they'd lower the USD to Aurum ratio. They don't have to change the amount of Aurum items in the NeX cost, just how many Aurum you get for a PLEX. clever really.
So now that I explained how that works.
When you turn your PLEX into Aurum you basically turn that $17.50 into free cash for CCP. They won't have to extend a players game time and they won't have to donate it to anything. They will likely use it to fund the other projects they have.
so TL:DR PLEX pre-Incarna was a trade service.. ISK for game time. Post-Incarna it's a funding method for CCP's projects. |
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:12:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 00:10:54
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
Well apparently you don't value money then.
You are confusing what value I'm talking about.
I'm saying that AUR Items add value to the in-game market. Value that didn't exist before.
Look at the flow chart again. All the items and ISK in there constitutes the total value of the in-game market. All of that value is created in-game. When you create an AUR item, value is added from a source that doesn't exist in-game ù it is added out of nowhere.
Yeah, and? How is this game-breaking?
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:15:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
I'm not an industrialist so I'm attempting to understand how NeX BPCs would harm the player-run industry. Based on this understanding I will decide if I unsub or not when/if the "ships for $" move comes.
First off you have to keep BPC's completely separate from all this.. All BPC's (even T2 and T3)are player made. Period.
So no T1/T2/T3 BPCs in the NeX. Right, so unique ships.
Originally by: Kahza Kado
The only exception to this are the Faction Ships and Faction ammo/mods. Which are traded through LP stores and then either put up on contract to sell or used to build the ships/ammo/mods that can then be put up on open market or contracts. Even then those faction BPC's are worked for to get by a player.
They could sell LP faction ships BPCs for the same price as the LP store, as a means of removing the LP grind, just as they sell PLEX to remove the ISK grind. See below.
Originally by: Kahza Kado
BPO's on the other hand are not made. But any BPO's offered on the NEX should not have any other advantage over any other BPO in the game save vanity.. And as all BPO's are, they should, once bought, also be allowed to be traded openly through contracts and the Market. Because any Industrialist will not just leave a NEX bought BPO as is. We will research it and copy it and make many many BPC's out of it.
I don't think their "greed is good" mentality will drive them to sell BPOs. It's not greedy enough.
Originally by: Kahza Kado
If you want to offer those on the NEX, fine then the LP store and missions should go bye bye because there really is no use for them anymore.
Not true if they're worth the same PLEX equivalent: ie, a CNR is 400 mil (1 PLEX) in the LP shop (hypothetical) then in the NeX it would have to be 3,500 AUR (also 1 PLEX.) So if you grind or if you NeX, they have the same value. The only difference is time invested.
Originally by: Kahza Kado
And if that happens the the content (what little of it there is) gone bye bye too.
If you want ships with different paint jobs fine.. sell the paint on NEX and have it able to apply to any ship. BPO's? fine allow them to become player commodities just like any other BPO. BUT, If that BPO produces anything that is an unfair advantage such as ammo that ignores all resistances or does more damage than T2 or Faction ammo then it's a no go deal.. that would be an unfair advantage.
I don't know about ammo that ignores resistances, it sounds outrageous, but if that is a BPC, you could still buy it from the market, and the BPC would not drive industrialists out of business.
|
Utremi Fasolasi
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:15:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
PLEX already introduced "pay2win" years ago. Let's not be hypocritical about this. I'm really surpirsed about people using the pay2win argument while that discussion was already done with years ago.
Thing is, you can't pay to win. There is no substitute for experience in the game. You can already buy a high skillpoint character with PLEXs and isk, and have them fly battleships and carriers, and those ships die quickly because of inferior tactics and failfitting.
The whole thing is evolutionarily self regulating. |
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:16:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
Yeah, and? How is this game-breaking?
Depends on how the AUR item can be used and what can be done to it, and on what was required to create it.
It can be anything from just a bit inflationary to a complete removal of a large number of professions.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:17:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
Edited by: Birdy Cephon on 25/06/2011 23:57:25
I think what would be cool as well, is if we could reverse-engineer T1 ships into BPOs.
Or we could rent research/development slots in Hi-Sec stations for AUR.
Here you go. Serious players, take note. This is what will be demanded, and what CCP will eventually have to deliver. It continues from there, but I'm not even going to make the obvious slippery-slope argument....the players are making it themselves.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:25:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tla Atij
There is no extra value.
Then the AUR item serves no purpose and will never be used. If an IW Scorp holds no additional value to a normal scorp, then it is pointless.
AUR's sole purpose is to be a subdivision of PLEX, as cents are to a dollar. So you're right, AUR = PLEX, whatever uses PLEX has, AUR has it too (except for extending game time.) No more, no less.
Originally by: Tippia
Quote:
My PLEX, instead of being sold on the market for 400 mil, was transformed into a BPC worth 400 mil. Where is the extra value from?
The extra value comes from the product you create with that BPC.
I don't "create" anything. I transform 400 mil ISK (a PLEX) into 400 mil ISK (a BPC.) Kindly point out where the "creation" is, I may be too thick to see it.
Then I add MINERALS (from the market) and whatever other manufacturing items are needed, and make the ship.
So, all below are equivalent, with no new value ever being added:
400 mil + minerals = golden retriever
PLEX + minerals = golden retriever
3,500 AUR + minerals = golden retriever
NeX BPC + minerals = golden retriever (where the NeX BPC costs 1 PLEX = 400 mil ISK = 3,500 AUR)
I fail to see the "out of thin air" value you see being added, or the impact to the manufacturing industry.
|
Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:25:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
Edited by: Birdy Cephon on 26/06/2011 00:05:49
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
That's not true. The value is just transferred from real money to virtual item. The same money could also be transferred into anything else you do in EVE. You're not creating something out of nothing.
Yes you are.
$$á+ Scorp → Extra value Scorp.
Remove the Scorp from both sides (which is created the same way regardless) and you have created that extra value in the market out of nowhere, just because you throw cash at it.
Well apparently you don't value money then. Maybe you could start by actually earning some for yourself.
Nice ad-hominem, but no actual argument. Seeing how a change in a game will have an impact on the in-game economy is unrelated to personal wealth.
You'd also be surprised - not a few businesspeople, software developers, people in the financial industry and other relatively well-off people play this game, and many do not sell PLEX.
Due to their regular jobs, they also have something of a deeper view into the possible impacts of business, software, and finance decisions on the game.
|
Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:29:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Kahza Kado
No, I'm not. Seriously show me how you can by skill points with plex with out buying a character that someone else has trained up to sell. Please!
This exact plan on CCP's part (buying SP on a character to match perfect training from that character's birthdate) is what T'Amber quit the CSM and Eve over.
It will happen.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:31:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 00:31:00
Originally by: Linar Mardolak
Originally by: Kahza Kado
No, I'm not. Seriously show me how you can by skill points with plex with out buying a character that someone else has trained up to sell. Please!
This exact plan on CCP's part (buying SP on a character to match perfect training from that character's birthdate) is what T'Amber quit the CSM and Eve over.
It will happen.
Vets will have a ball with that. Getting the opportunity to spend $ for all those long breaks after ghost training was disabled... clever bastards the CCPers, lol.
Edit: If they limit themselves to this, at least a rich 2 days old player won't be flying titans.
|
Nano J
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:31:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Nano J
Originally by: Tla Atij
@Nano J
Exactly why I said they wouldn't NeX CNRs, Navy Megas, etc, instead they would do Ishukone Scorpions, Golden Retrievers, etc.
Even still, the Ishukone Scorpion that would be purchased would deny the sale of another ship. That Golden Retriever basically purchased with cash would probably mean one less sale of a Chihuahua... or hulk.
Assuming the Golden Retriever has a bonus over the regular one then not really, they would not compete, because they would be aimed at different target audiences, through their price tag.
They would compete. If a 3rd tier BC were introduced, the prices of the other BC's would temporary drop due to demand shifting to the new BC. However, the market would shortly stabilize once players determined the value of the new BC for themselves. An Ishukone Scorp's value would be determined solely by CCP. Its demand (and the isk paid, should it be sold in the isk market) would be shifted away from other ships. However, it's price would not change. The market would either stabilize and they'd become ignored (think of someone trying to sell a fleet scythe for 200mil next to a fleet stabber for 80mil), or the item would overpower its role (think someone selling a vagabond for 50mil next to a fleet stabber for 80mil).
Ultimately, if you're in a Golden Retriever, it means you're not in something else. ...plus you like beastiality.
|
Kahza Kado
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:32:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Tla Atij
I feel for you, I really do. But this happens already. Let's imagine the Golden Retriever which costs 3,500 AUR (1 PLEX.)
I could buy it on the market for 400 mil ISK (the value of 1 PLEX)
You could buy it with 3,500 AUR (also the value of 1 PLEX)
This is already happening. NOW. With non-aur ships.
What I would really object to is skill-points for ISK, or standings for ISK, or other such nonsense. But as for ships, the damage was done when they introduced PLEX, and there's no going back.
Good point.. Lets break this down, shall we?
Golden Retriever for AUR only = Regular Retriever bought for PLEX/ISK if only thing you paid extra for is the gold paint job. IF, it has anything that makes it out preform the regular retriever and is not made available to the player base through the market/LP Store, then you have just paid to have an unfair advantage. Now, IF your Golden Retriever theory involves one that does out preform a Regular Retriever then it should have extra skill requirements to be able to fly it and operate.
Uh oh! See where this is going? If your so inpatient as to not want to grind out the isk/LP or go through the already ingame PLEX system to get said Golden Retriever, are you going to sit still and wait the extra time to train for it if the same NEX store has skill points for sale too?
Now, lets say they do offer the Golden Retriever.. Is there a BPO that's going to be available for it that the player base can take advantage of?
And lets not forget that a PLEX before the announcement of the AUR and Nex store was only around 350 mill not 400 mill+ (even higher in some regions).. See? That right there is a negative effect on the economy right there!
I am not saying offering things through the new system is bad.. Just make sure what is offered is balanced and does not tip the scales of game play is all.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:35:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Nano J
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Nano J
Originally by: Tla Atij
@Nano J
Exactly why I said they wouldn't NeX CNRs, Navy Megas, etc, instead they would do Ishukone Scorpions, Golden Retrievers, etc.
Even still, the Ishukone Scorpion that would be purchased would deny the sale of another ship. That Golden Retriever basically purchased with cash would probably mean one less sale of a Chihuahua... or hulk.
Assuming the Golden Retriever has a bonus over the regular one then not really, they would not compete, because they would be aimed at different target audiences, through their price tag.
They would compete. If a 3rd tier BC were introduced, the prices of the other BC's would temporary drop due to demand shifting to the new BC. However, the market would shortly stabilize once players determined the value of the new BC for themselves. An Ishukone Scorp's value would be determined solely by CCP. Its demand (and the isk paid, should it be sold in the isk market) would be shifted away from other ships. However, it's price would not change. The market would either stabilize and they'd become ignored (think of someone trying to sell a fleet scythe for 200mil next to a fleet stabber for 80mil), or the item would overpower its role (think someone selling a vagabond for 50mil next to a fleet stabber for 80mil).
Ultimately, if you're in a Golden Retriever, it means you're not in something else. ...plus you like beastiality.
My idea that they wouldn't compete was based on the huge difference of price (i.e. retriever 5 mil ISK, golden retriever 500 mil ISK, totally different target audiences/markets, price separation, whole other league.)
|
Saul Perry
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:37:00 -
[100]
What I am surprised I do not see mentioned (and I admit perhaps this is because I am missing something) is that in addition to the obvious and simply understood differences between PLEX and AUR, this new system pulls plex from the economy.
In other words, lets say there are a few thousand PLEX in existence right now. These are really months of game time that have been bought and paid for. CCP has made their profit on these and they owe these months of game time in return for this. And, since there are some number of them, PLEX prices will be regulated by this, and by how much newbies want to get a blast of isk in game. This benefits those building ships that will be bought and those who want to pay for their own accounts with plex.
And, I suspect it's even a bit of an anxiety generator for CCP since really, they can't treat plex as pure profit but as more of a marker for something they have to make good on.
Enter AURUM. Notice we can't take aurum and make them back into a plex? Notice that they aren't micro-plex which was at one point suggested. Notice that we can't trade AURUM. There are reasons for this. Because once PLEX are broken into AURUM, that game time owed dissapears. It becomes pixels that people want and may be willing to pay for, but which will ultimately deplete the number of plex in existence without the payoff of game time intended. Every PLEX broken now becomes pure profit for CCP since that plex would have at some point been used to fund a months play and now whoever was gonna use the plex for that will need another way to pay (another plex worth another $15 perhaps). But in the end this all comes at a cost and that cost is to the players in game who want to use plex and who don't want monocles.
So any who say - don't want monocles, don't buy em need to realize it's more complex than this. Really, the transport of plex was the first step in this direction since a Kestrel exploding with 70 plex is an extra $1000 in CCPs pockets.
And all this is to say nothing about the fact that items traded for AURUM were created out of this air -- which honestly I cannot understand why so many find difficult to grasp. These more basic aspects of what's bad about MTs and especially MTs for non-vanity items should not be in dispute
|
Llambda
Space Llama Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:38:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Llambda on 26/06/2011 00:40:04
Originally by: Whitehound
The NEX introduces new items, which add nothing to the game but an ISK sink.
This is wrong. An ISK sink is something that removes ISK from the game. NeX does not remove ISK from the game. Purchases made on the NeX do not alter the sum total amount of ISK in the money supply.
Re-sales of the new items on the ISK market will also not remove ISK from the game (excepting taxes and broker fees), but will merely move ISK between players.
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:41:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Tla Atij
So you're right, AUR = PLEX, whatever uses PLEX has, AUR has it too (except for extending game time.) No more, no less.
I didn't say that, and no, they don't.
None of the things you can do with PLEX can be done with AUR; none of the things you can do with AUR can be done with PLEX.
Quote:
I don't "create" anything. I transform 400 mil ISK (a PLEX) into 400 mil ISK (a BPC.) Kindly point out where the "creation" is, I may be too thick to see it.
No.
You trade 400M ISK for a PLEX. The ISK remains in the economy.
You transform 1 PLEX to 3,500 AUR.
You transform 3,500 AUR to a BPC.
That BPC has a value ù it can be sold for some price the market decides on, in this case 400M.
The economy now holds the original 400M ISK and a 400M-ISK worth BPC.
Congratulations, you have just added 400M worth of goods to the economy. Out of nowhere.
Quote:
Then I add MINERALS (from the market) and whatever other manufacturing items are needed, and make the ship.
You transform your BPC + Minerals into a Ship.
That ship has a value.
Naturally, you (and the rest of the market) want to recover the BPC and mineral value, so you price this ship at 600M, of which 50M is the cost of the minerals.
The economy now holds -50M worth of minerals, the original 400M ISK, and a ship worth 600M.
Congratulations, you have added 550M worth of goods to the economy. Out of nowhere.
If you don't trade that ISK, but rather go straight from the PLEX shop, then that first step reads "You obtain a PLEX for 0 ISK", and at the end of the first stage, you have 0 ISK + a 400M ISK BPC, which then turns into 0 ISK + 550M ISK ship.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:41:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Tla Atij
I feel for you, I really do. But this happens already. Let's imagine the Golden Retriever which costs 3,500 AUR (1 PLEX.)
I could buy it on the market for 400 mil ISK (the value of 1 PLEX)
You could buy it with 3,500 AUR (also the value of 1 PLEX)
This is already happening. NOW. With non-aur ships.
What I would really object to is skill-points for ISK, or standings for ISK, or other such nonsense. But as for ships, the damage was done when they introduced PLEX, and there's no going back.
Good point.. Lets break this down, shall we?
Golden Retriever for AUR only = Regular Retriever bought for PLEX/ISK if only thing you paid extra for is the gold paint job. IF, it has anything that makes it out preform the regular retriever and is not made available to the player base through the market/LP Store, then you have just paid to have an unfair advantage.
Not true, because I can sell you my Golden Retriever on the market.
The "unfair advantage" is not reserved to the AUR-invite-only-club. Anyone can get it. It's not AUR-only. You can pay ISK for it too. Granted, if you're a casual player, or not good at making ISK (e.g. you're a poor pirate,) you won't have the ISK to buy it. But you could.
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Now, IF your Golden Retriever theory involves one that does out preform a Regular Retriever then it should have extra skill requirements to be able to fly it and operate.
Possibly.
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Uh oh! See where this is going? If your so inpatient as to not want to grind out the isk/LP or go through the already ingame PLEX system to get said Golden Retriever, are you going to sit still and wait the extra time to train for it if the same NEX store has skill points for sale too?
Meh, if they start selling skill points I'm the first out the door.
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Now, lets say they do offer the Golden Retriever.. Is there a BPO that's going to be available for it that the player base can take advantage of?
It would be offered as a BPC.
Originally by: Kahza Kado
And lets not forget that a PLEX before the announcement of the AUR and Nex store was only around 350 mill not 400 mill+ (even higher in some regions).. See? That right there is a negative effect on the economy right there!
Indeed, the price of PLEX (and consequently AUR) fluctuates sometimes, but it's rather stable.
Originally by: Kahza Kado
I am not saying offering things through the new system is bad.. Just make sure what is offered is balanced and does not tip the scales of game play is all.
The point is, it will be offered to everybody, not the AUR-invite-only-club, there's no such thing. Granted, casual players draw the short stick if they don't have ISK...
I still don't see how industrialists are affected.
|
Kahza Kado
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:44:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Saul Perry
What I am surprised I do not see mentioned (and I admit perhaps this is because I am missing something) is that in addition to the obvious and simply understood differences between PLEX and AUR, this new system pulls plex from the economy.
In other words, lets say there are a few thousand PLEX in existence right now. These are really months of game time that have been bought and paid for. CCP has made their profit on these and they owe these months of game time in return for this. And, since there are some number of them, PLEX prices will be regulated by this, and by how much newbies want to get a blast of isk in game. This benefits those building ships that will be bought and those who want to pay for their own accounts with plex.
And, I suspect it's even a bit of an anxiety generator for CCP since really, they can't treat plex as pure profit but as more of a marker for something they have to make good on.
Enter AURUM. Notice we can't take aurum and make them back into a plex? Notice that they aren't micro-plex which was at one point suggested. Notice that we can't trade AURUM. There are reasons for this. Because once PLEX are broken into AURUM, that game time owed dissapears. It becomes pixels that people want and may be willing to pay for, but which will ultimately deplete the number of plex in existence without the payoff of game time intended. Every PLEX broken now becomes pure profit for CCP since that plex would have at some point been used to fund a months play and now whoever was gonna use the plex for that will need another way to pay (another plex worth another $15 perhaps). But in the end this all comes at a cost and that cost is to the players in game who want to use plex and who don't want monocles.
So any who say - don't want monocles, don't buy em need to realize it's more complex than this. Really, the transport of plex was the first step in this direction since a Kestrel exploding with 70 plex is an extra $1000 in CCPs pockets.
And all this is to say nothing about the fact that items traded for AURUM were created out of this air -- which honestly I cannot understand why so many find difficult to grasp. These more basic aspects of what's bad about MTs and especially MTs for non-vanity items should not be in dispute
Good Point Saul.
|
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:45:00 -
[105]
CCP has been creating items out of "thin air" since day one. Just look at PI command centers.
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:50:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 00:50:42
Originally by: Tla Atij
Not true, because I can sell you my Golden Retriever on the market.
You would still have an advantage, because only by going the AUR route, you gain access to something more valuable than the normal Retriever, which other non-AUR user cannot produce.
Quote:
The "unfair advantage" is not reserved to the AUR-invite-only-club. Anyone can get it.
No it's still reserved to the AUR club ù it's just an unfair advantage in a different area (industry and market, rather than in flying the ship).
Quote:
I still don't see how industrialists are affected.
They have to compete with a product that only AUR-club members can create.
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
CCP has been creating items out of "thin air" since day one. Just look at PI command centers.
That's called an ISK-to-item conversion (technically, a combined ISK sink and item faucet) and it's a part of the normal flow of ISK and items in the in-game economy.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:54:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
CCP has been creating items out of "thin air" since day one. Just look at PI command centers.
That's called an ISK-to-item conversion (technically, a combined ISK sink and item faucet) and it's a part of the normal flow of ISK and items in the in-game economy.
Yeah, but you can just buy PLEX with ISK and convert PLEX to AUR. SO it's basically ISK to AUR conversion.
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:56:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tla Atij
So you're right, AUR = PLEX, whatever uses PLEX has, AUR has it too (except for extending game time.) No more, no less.
I didn't say that, and no, they don't.
None of the things you can do with PLEX can be done with AUR; none of the things you can do with AUR can be done with PLEX.
Isn't that like saying that I can't do with an Euro what I can do with a Dollar?
Originally by: Tippia
Quote:
I don't "create" anything. I transform 400 mil ISK (a PLEX) into 400 mil ISK (a BPC.) Kindly point out where the "creation" is, I may be too thick to see it.
No.
You trade 400M ISK for a PLEX. The ISK remains in the economy.
You transform 1 PLEX to 3,500 AUR.
You transform 3,500 AUR to a BPC.
That BPC has a value ù it can be sold for some price the market decides on, in this case 400M.
The economy now holds the original 400M ISK and a 400M-ISK worth BPC.
Congratulations, you have just added 400M worth of goods to the economy. Out of nowhere.
I buy a PLEX with my 400 mil ISK, yes. Both ISK and PLEX are already in game. They only change hands during the trade.
Then I transform my PLEX into a BPC. The PLEX is removed. The BPC enters. The BPC now has a value of 400 mil ISK (the same value I bought the PLEX for.)
Total value in-game after trading ISK for PLEX:
My ISK (400 mil) + seller's PLEX (400 mil) = 800 mil ISK.
Total value in-game after transforming PLEX to BPC:
My ISK (400 mil, now in Seller's wallet) + my new BPC = 800 mil ISK.
Total value injected from thin air:
800 mil ISK - 800 mil ISK = 0 ISK.
So where's the new 400M from?
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:01:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 00:50:42
Originally by: Tla Atij
Not true, because I can sell you my Golden Retriever on the market.
You would still have an advantage, because only by going the AUR route, you gain access to something more valuable than the normal Retriever, which other non-AUR user cannot produce.
You have a point. The market seeding will be done by the AUR-club. Hmm.
Originally by: Tippia
Quote:
The "unfair advantage" is not reserved to the AUR-invite-only-club. Anyone can get it.
No it's still reserved to the AUR club ù it's just an unfair advantage in a different area (industry and market, rather than in flying the ship).
Same point as above, I agree. Initially, before the market is seeded by AUR-buyers, the regular market will be at a disadvantage.
Originally by: Tippia
Quote:
I still don't see how industrialists are affected.
They have to compete with a product that only AUR-club members can create.
But AUR-club members create BPCs (at least in my hypothetical scenario): the manufacturer's bread and butter.
|
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:03:00 -
[110]
You can convert AUR to ISK no problem.
AUR => Item => ISK
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Joferrut
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:07:00 -
[111]
This is just start ... in one year you will be able to buy with AUR 10% res for 5 hours or +10% speed , keys for plex , 50% faster SP learning ... and 1000 more things
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:08:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Joferrut
This is just start ... in one year you will be able to buy with AUR 10% res for 5 hours or +10% speed , keys for plex , 50% faster SP learning ... and 1000 more things
That will suck, if it happens. At the moment it's only speculation. And also (sorry) off topic. <3
|
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:09:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Joferrut
This is just start ... in one year you will be able to buy with AUR 10% res for 5 hours or +10% speed , keys for plex , 50% faster SP learning ... and 1000 more things
That will suck, if it happens. At the moment it's only speculation. And also (sorry) off topic. <3
I doubt they would go that far unless they're planning on going F2P.
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Kahza Kado
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:11:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Kahza Kado on 26/06/2011 01:12:17
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Joferrut
This is just start ... in one year you will be able to buy with AUR 10% res for 5 hours or +10% speed , keys for plex , 50% faster SP learning ... and 1000 more things
That will suck, if it happens. At the moment it's only speculation. And also (sorry) off topic. <3
Actually its not.. it's exactly what were talking about. Where will all this stuff he mentioned come from? Definitely not the player base. Its the same as the Golden Retriever.. where will it come from? NOT the player base or the Industrialist amongst them.
Edit: It is only speculation just referring to the off topic part =)
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:15:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Edited by: Kahza Kado on 26/06/2011 01:12:17
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Joferrut
This is just start ... in one year you will be able to buy with AUR 10% res for 5 hours or +10% speed , keys for plex , 50% faster SP learning ... and 1000 more things
That will suck, if it happens. At the moment it's only speculation. And also (sorry) off topic. <3
Actually its not.. it's exactly what were talking about. Where will all this stuff he mentioned come from? Definitely not the player base. Its the same as the Golden Retriever.. where will it come from? NOT the player base or the Industrialist amongst them.
It's easy. Anyone can buy a PLEX, industrialist or not, either with ISK or $$$, and then trade it for a Golden Retreiver BPC. From which a manufacturer makes the ship with minerals.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:20:00 -
[116]
Tippia? 
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:26:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:27:35
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
Yeah, but you can just buy PLEX with ISK and convert PLEX to AUR. SO it's basically ISK to AUR conversion.
No, because the ISK is not removed.
Originally by: Birdy Cephon
You can convert AUR to ISK no problem.
AUR => Item => ISK
Again, not a conversion ù it's a trade. The ISK stays in the system.
Originally by: Tla Atij
Isn't that like saying that I can't do with an Euro what I can do with a Dollar?
No. It's like saying you can't do with a can of paint what you can do with a dollar. Just because you can buy one with the other at the store (with no refund policy) doesn't mean they're the same or that you can do the same thing with them.
Quote:
IMy ISK (400 mil) + seller's PLEX (400 mil) = 800 mil ISK.
<Screeching tires noise />
This is the problem: the PLEX is not 400M ù it's the option to get either 30d of game time to your account or 3,500 AUR to your wallet.
But ok. Let's start at the actual beginning.
Start:. Economy holds your 400M ISK.
1. Other guy buys a 30d/3,500 AUR call option (PLEX) for $17.50 and puts it on the market.
ù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option.
2. You trade 400M ISK for the PLEX..
ù Economy still holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option.
3. You exercise the 3,500 AUR call option.
ù Economy holds 400M ISK and 3,500 AUR ← this is where the value addition happens.
4. You exchange 3,500 AUR for a BPC. This BPC is valued at 400M ISK because that's how much you have to trade to get the call option.
ù Economy holds 400M ISK and 400M-ISK BPC.
5. [the rest of it happens]
The important bit to study here is #3. Why does the value add happen there? Because it is an option, and you chose the one that adds value to the market. The other option had been to call in the 30d, at which point the PLEX had exited the economy and we'd be back at the starting position of the economy only containing 400M ISK.
Once you make that PLEX→AUR conversion, you're locked in. You cannot go back and get the "30 days and exit economy" option any more. All you can do is exchange those AUR for items and move forward.
edit: more appropriate colours for the background.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Clarice Linstrand
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:28:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Edited by: Kahza Kado on 26/06/2011 01:12:17
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Joferrut
This is just start ... in one year you will be able to buy with AUR 10% res for 5 hours or +10% speed , keys for plex , 50% faster SP learning ... and 1000 more things
That will suck, if it happens. At the moment it's only speculation. And also (sorry) off topic. <3
Actually its not.. it's exactly what were talking about. Where will all this stuff he mentioned come from? Definitely not the player base. Its the same as the Golden Retriever.. where will it come from? NOT the player base or the Industrialist amongst them.
Edit: It is only speculation just referring to the off topic part =)
Yes. When the industrialists no longer see a return, those that do it as a profession will quit. Those that have industrial alts (*wave*) will stop doing industry as it has a lower return than other ways of making money. In a normal situation, that would be sorted out by the market - as supply dropped, prices would go up until an equilibrium is reached. However, with injection of items from thin air for cash, that equation is skewed. It's easier to wait on CCP to sell ships and ammo - particularly ammo, as it's a pain to make and move, and the economy will have a RL factor replacing an in-game factor.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:29:00 -
[119]
Tippiaù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option.
Why isn't it a 400mil option too?
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:30:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:31:25
Originally by: Tla Atij
Tippiaù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option.
Why isn't it a 400mil option too?
Because you cannot convert it into 400M ISK. You can only trade it back and forth but never say "ok, remove this item and replace it completely with 400M ISK" ù you can only do that with either 30d or 3,500 AUR.
àand those colours are still awful. Hmm. Have to try a few other ones.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:31:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:30:24
Originally by: Tla Atij
Tippiaù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option.
Why isn't it a 400mil option too?
Because you cannot convert it into 400M ISK.
àand those colours are still awful. Hmm. Have to try a few other ones.
I think there's a disconnect here... I'm quite sure I can make a PLEX into 400 mil ISK.
|
Nano J
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:34:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Tla Atij
I buy a PLEX with my 400 mil ISK, yes. Both ISK and PLEX are already in game. They only change hands during the trade.
Then I transform my PLEX into a BPC. The PLEX is removed. The BPC enters. The BPC now has a value of 400 mil ISK (the same value I bought the PLEX for.)
Total value in-game after trading ISK for PLEX:
My ISK (400 mil) + seller's PLEX (400 mil) = 800 mil ISK.
Total value in-game after transforming PLEX to BPC:
My ISK (400 mil, now in Seller's wallet) + my new BPC = 800 mil ISK.
Total value injected from thin air:
800 mil ISK - 800 mil ISK = 0 ISK.
So where's the new 400M from?
The PLEX exists as an item, but the "400M" you're counting with it is applied to the isk used to purchase it. The PLEX itself is only a voucher for an out-of-game good: game time. Using that game time to create an in-game item transfers a RL good into a virtual good. The 400M used to purchase the PLEX and the PLEX itself are in the game at the same time, but they do not occupy the same position in the economy. You're logic is saying that when you buy a PLEX, you're given a PLEX to sell in game as well as 400M in your wallet. You're thinking of the PLEX as a good generated by game mechanics, when the real issue is about its creation from an out-of-game good and its redemption as either another out-of-game good or an in-game good made from thin air. There is never isk created by just buying a PLEX.
|
Llambda
Space Llama Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:36:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:31:25
Originally by: Tla Atij
Tippiaù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option.
Why isn't it a 400mil option too?
Because you cannot convert it into 400M ISK. You can only trade it back and forth but never say "ok, remove this item and replace it completely with 400M ISK" ù you can only do that with either 30d or 3,500 AUR.
àand those colours are still awful. Hmm. Have to try a few other ones.
And for his/her next trick, Tippia will attempt to explain Mozart to a Juggalo.
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:36:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Tla Atij
I think there's a disconnect here... I'm quite sure I can make a PLEX into 400 mil ISK.
Ok. How?
And I'm not talking about a trade here, because that just moves stuff around. Nothing is being created or deleted.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Nano J
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:37:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:30:24
Originally by: Tla Atij
Tippiaù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option.
Why isn't it a 400mil option too?
Because you cannot convert it into 400M ISK.
àand those colours are still awful. Hmm. Have to try a few other ones.
I think there's a disconnect here... I'm quite sure I can make a PLEX into 400 mil ISK.
You can't MAKE a PLEX into 400mil, you can sell it for 400mil. Both the PLEX and the 400mil existed before and afterwards; neither are created nor destroyed by the creation or destruction of the other. See my above post...
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:40:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Nano J
Originally by: Tla Atij
I buy a PLEX with my 400 mil ISK, yes. Both ISK and PLEX are already in game. They only change hands during the trade.
Then I transform my PLEX into a BPC. The PLEX is removed. The BPC enters. The BPC now has a value of 400 mil ISK (the same value I bought the PLEX for.)
Total value in-game after trading ISK for PLEX:
My ISK (400 mil) + seller's PLEX (400 mil) = 800 mil ISK.
Total value in-game after transforming PLEX to BPC:
My ISK (400 mil, now in Seller's wallet) + my new BPC = 800 mil ISK.
Total value injected from thin air:
800 mil ISK - 800 mil ISK = 0 ISK.
So where's the new 400M from?
The PLEX exists as an item, but the "400M" you're counting with it is applied to the isk used to purchase it. The PLEX itself is only a voucher for an out-of-game good: game time. Using that game time to create an in-game item transfers a RL good into a virtual good. The 400M used to purchase the PLEX and the PLEX itself are in the game at the same time, but they do not occupy the same position in the economy. You're logic is saying that when you buy a PLEX, you're given a PLEX to sell in game as well as 400M in your wallet. You're thinking of the PLEX as a good generated by game mechanics, when the real issue is about its creation from an out-of-game good and its redemption as either another out-of-game good or an in-game good made from thin air. There is never isk created by just buying a PLEX.
I think I get it, a PLEX isn't ISK.
So if I equate both ISK and PLEX in USD, the only problem is that they flow between the in-game universe and RL. So the solution is...
"What do you want me to do now, remove PLEX?" -CCP Hilmar on Twitter
image
Sorry, couldn't help it.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:43:00 -
[127]
To add, so the problem is with PLEX, not AUR or the NeX, they only make it worse?
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:46:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Llambda
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:31:25
Originally by: Tla Atij
Tippiaù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option.
Why isn't it a 400mil option too?
Because you cannot convert it into 400M ISK. You can only trade it back and forth but never say "ok, remove this item and replace it completely with 400M ISK" ù you can only do that with either 30d or 3,500 AUR.
àand those colours are still awful. Hmm. Have to try a few other ones.
And for his/her next trick, Tippia will attempt to explain Mozart to a Juggalo.
Also I'd like to thank Tippia for taking the time to explain this stuff.
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:49:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:49:40
Originally by: Tla Atij
To add, so the problem is with PLEX, not AUR or the NeX, they only make it worse?
No. The problem comes with AUR.
As soon as you get something other than 30d gametime with PLEX (which causes it to exist the economy and balance out its entry), you create value in the economy ù it's particularly apparent in this case since that "something other" is an actual in-game currency you can use to spawn items.
The problem can then be compounded if those items are capable of further spawning items that already exist in the market, thereby bypassing the normal economy mechanics that determine the spawn rate of those items. This was almost the case with the IW Scorp, but we dodged that oneà for nowà
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Llambda
Space Llama Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:53:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Llambda on 26/06/2011 01:53:56
Originally by: Tla Atij
To add, so the problem is with PLEX, not AUR or the NeX, they only make it worse?
No, the issue is the AUR/NeX shop items.
Consider:
Prior to Aurum, every plex was destined to be destroyed in return for gametime. Any given plex could have a lifespan during which it could be traded amongst players, but its presence in the in-game economy would ultimately be completely erased once someone redeemed it for gametime.
This isn't the case once a plex can be converted into other in-game items.
|
Nano J
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:56:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Tippia
As soon as you get something other than 30d gametime with PLEX (which causes it to exist the economy and balance out its entry), you create value in the economy
This.
A PLEX is a representation of a RL good (either $20 or 30d gametime) that was released in-game to combat isk-selling. It does nothing in-game.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:56:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:49:40
Originally by: Tla Atij
To add, so the problem is with PLEX, not AUR or the NeX, they only make it worse?
No. The problem comes with AUR.
As soon as you get something other than 30d gametime with PLEX (which causes it to exist the economy and balance out its entry), you create value in the economy ù it's particularly apparent in this case since that "something other" is an actual in-game currency you can use to spawn items.
The problem can then be compounded if those items are capable of further spawning items that already exist in the market, thereby bypassing the normal economy mechanics that determine the spawn rate of those items. This was almost the case with the IW Scorp, but we dodged that oneà for nowà
OK, thanks.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 01:59:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 02:00:18
Originally by: Tippia
As soon as you get something other than 30d gametime with PLEX (which causes it to exist the economy and balance out its entry), you create value in the economy
So what happens to the economy then? I mean, as more PLEX is broken into AUR, instead of being used for game time.
|
Akkukkak
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:01:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Ariel Nova
When you turn your PLEX into Aurum you basically turn that $17.50 into free cash for CCP. They won't have to extend a players game time and they won't have to donate it to anything. They will likely use it to fund the other projects they have.
so TL:DR PLEX pre-Incarna was a trade service.. ISK for game time. Post-Incarna it's a funding method for CCP's projects.
THIS :::::::::
For those that "dont get it" .....
PLEX only transfers ISK from one player to another player. Thats why many people here says "its neutral". The one player giving ISK is rewarded with "Free game time (PLEX)". The other player have the ISK he needs. And CCP have the real money.
BUT ::::::
PLEX wasnt really "neutral". Because CCP was unable or unwilling to stop the botties. So... those "ChinoRuso" RMT Alliances have now almost unlimited ISK they cannot sell easly. Thats affects the game in many ways, dont you think? 
AND NOW WITH INCARNA ::::::
Seems that someone big/old/inept FatIcelandicAss in CCP decided thats a good idea selling game playable items direct.
In my opinion that would be "neutral" only if all the players or almost all of them are PvP addict. But thats not true. I think PvP in EVE only exist in the imagination of the campers and blobbers Many of us (perhaps most of) play EVE online because its innovative market driven economy. It facinated me many years ago and still does. PvP market they say. INCARNA makes me think CCP is going to nerf this, ergo ruin my game.
|
Revyna
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:09:00 -
[135]
Tippia has far more patience than me. :)
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:11:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Revyna
Tippia has far more patience than me. :)
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:17:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Tla Atij
Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 02:00:18
Originally by: Tippia
As soon as you get something other than 30d gametime with PLEX (which causes it to exist the economy and balance out its entry), you create value in the economy
So what happens to the economy then? I mean, as more PLEX is broken into AUR, instead of being used for game time.
I'm gonna probably make a complete ass out of myself but I'll try to answer my own question. So items from the NeX enter the economy, and the amount of ISK stays the same. Uhmmm... Errrr...
So at one point there won't be enough ISK anymore?
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:25:00 -
[138]
Then there will be so many items on the market and nobody will buy them, so their ISK price will go down until they won't be worth their AUR price, and people will stop selling them, and only blow them up?
|
Revelrie
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:29:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Revelrie on 26/06/2011 02:30:02
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Revyna
Tippia has far more patience than me. :)
At least you were willing to discuss it.
Maybe there is some configuration of performance boosting MTs that will minimally impact industrialists, but it really depends on the details of the implementation. Some configurations would be worse than others, but they would all distort the economy.
|
Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:29:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Linar Mardolak on 26/06/2011 02:32:39
Originally by: Tla Atij
Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 00:31:00
Originally by: Linar Mardolak
Originally by: Kahza Kado
No, I'm not. Seriously show me how you can by skill points with plex with out buying a character that someone else has trained up to sell. Please!
This exact plan on CCP's part (buying SP on a character to match perfect training from that character's birthdate) is what T'Amber quit the CSM and Eve over.
It will happen.
Vets will have a ball with that. Getting the opportunity to spend $ for all those long breaks after ghost training was disabled... clever bastards the CCPers, lol.
Edit: If they limit themselves to this, at least a rich 2 days old player won't be flying titans.
Nope, they very well might - they already can do so now, though it's at least a PLEX->isk transaction and the economy isn't damaged by that.
Here's that scenario, without resorting to RMT.
New player similar to SirLordex starts up. He's got $100,000 that he wants to spend, and wants to bankroll an alliance.
1. He purchases a pile of PLEX, converts some to isk, then buys someone's low-SP alt from 2006 or so. (not cheap, but a much more efficient buy all around due to 2 and 3 below)
2. He then tops-up that character's SP using Aurum, buying full-speed training from 2006 to today.
3. He then maps out that character's training to match the Titan plan that he has - no need to wait until suitable characters with Titan skills show up for sale.
4. He purchases a Titan with isk.
Repeat 2-4 until as many supercap characters as necessary are ready.
Hire a core of alliance members to fly them, recruit some support, and go.
Everything but 2 and 3 are possible now, but they mean the process goes much faster.
A really not-so-bright rich player could do all that without the alliance, but that would just result in a rapidly lost Titan.
RMT, of course, short-circuits the whole thing.
(edit - character ages were inconsistent. I'd have to do the math to be sure, but perfect training from 2006 should be fine)
|
Llambda
Space Llama Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:31:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Llambda on 26/06/2011 02:33:02
It's less about what it "will do" to the economy from a supply/demand perspective and more about the fact that it would circumvent the normal in-game economy.
For instance, say they put a navy issue armageddon BPC on the NeX. Normally, to acquire that BPC, someone would have to first acquire one by running missions, and then purchase the BPC from the LP store. While you may personally just buy the BPC off contracts, SOMEONE would have had to have run the missions, acquired the LP, and bought the item from the LP shop.
If it's available for AUR, though, someone can directly purchase plex, purchase AUR, and then purchase the BPC - thereby completely bypassing the normal game mechanics, not just for himself, but for the economy as a whole. This isn't just "doing something" to the economy, it's completely bypassing it wholesale.
Edit: Note that I'm not saying geddon BPCs will be available on the NeX; it's merely a hypothetical example to provide an answer to a question.
|
Nano J
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:31:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Tla Atij
Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 02:00:18
Originally by: Tippia
As soon as you get something other than 30d gametime with PLEX (which causes it to exist the economy and balance out its entry), you create value in the economy
So what happens to the economy then? I mean, as more PLEX is broken into AUR, instead of being used for game time.
I'm gonna probably make a complete ass out of myself but I'll try to answer my own question. So items from the NeX enter the economy, and the amount of ISK stays the same. Uhmmm... Errrr...
So at one point there won't be enough ISK anymore?
Items that are put into the game with aurum compete unfairly with items that were generated by standard game mechanics. So some guy who has spent the last 3 years skilling up to be an awesome manufacturer is out of a job, or at least his income is now determined by how much cash CCP wants to charge us for items via aurum.
Aside from that, items that can be bought on nex, then sold for isk as exclusive aurum-only items adds value to the "goods-side" of the economic, devaluing isk and creating inflation.
isk isn't technically created, but value is created from nothing. needless to say, MT's in these fashions will surely be the cause of all kinds of market volatilities. ultimately though, the idea that CCP is setting the aurum price on these goods means other goods have to compete with CCP instead of each other, thus putting a great big turd in the sandbox economy.
|
Linar Mardolak
Minmatar
Phlogiston Absorption
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:39:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Akkukkak
In my opinion that would be "neutral" only if all the players or almost all of them are PvP addict. But thats not true. I think PvP in EVE only exist in the imagination of the campers and blobbers Many of us (perhaps most of) play EVE online because its innovative market driven economy. It facinated me many years ago and still does. PvP market they say. INCARNA makes me think CCP is going to nerf this, ergo ruin my game.
Remember, of course, that the shooting-PvP players are the reason that the market-PvP works so well. PvE doesn't destroy manufactured goods fast enough to keep the market going - you'd need a geometrically increasing population for that to work without a lot of ships blowing up, or introduce decay of virtual items.
Else, you'll saturate the market (like the monocle market will be saturated shortly, since they're not destroyed)
Both sides of the equation work together to make the economy run.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:51:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 02:53:43
Originally by: Llambda
Edited by: Llambda on 26/06/2011 02:33:02
It's less about what it "will do" to the economy from a supply/demand perspective and more about the fact that it would circumvent the normal in-game economy.
For instance, say they put a navy issue armageddon BPC on the NeX. Normally, to acquire that BPC, someone would have to first acquire one by running missions, and then purchase the BPC from the LP store. While you may personally just buy the BPC off contracts, SOMEONE would have had to have run the missions, acquired the LP, and bought the item from the LP shop.
If it's available for AUR, though, someone can directly purchase plex, purchase AUR, and then purchase the BPC - thereby completely bypassing the normal game mechanics, not just for himself, but for the economy as a whole. This isn't just "doing something" to the economy, it's completely bypassing it wholesale.
Edit: Note that I'm not saying geddon BPCs will be available on the NeX; it's merely a hypothetical example to provide an answer to a question.
If they set the BPC's price a lot higher than in the LP store, so it can be used only as last resort, won't this leave the normal mechanics alone? I mean yes, they make a BPC out of thin air, but its price is so high that normal mission runners/manufacturers won't be affected by it?
I mean, maybe I'm in deep 0.0 we're sieged and there are no local BPCs but we have materials. We'll use Aurum as a last resort, even if it's crazy priced. And then if the geddon survives, I'll be forced to sell it on the regular market for the regular price, since nobody would pay its Aurum cost.
|
Llambda
Space Llama Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 02:56:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Tla Atij
If they set the BPC's price a lot higher than in the LP store, so it can be used only as last resort, won't this leave the normal mechanics alone? I mean yes, they make a BPC out of thin air, but its price is so high that normal mission runners/manufacturers won't be affected by it?
In theory, sure, you could put something in the NeX and set the price prohibitively high and avoid it ever having any measurable impact on the "real" game.
In practice, why would they set the price that high? They WANT you buy things from the NeX shop, because those purchases translate directly to money for CCP. There's no benefit to pricing themselves out of the market.
|
Tla Atij
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 03:04:00 -
[146]
So if they put a high AUR price on "tangible" items like ships/modules, and then offer only time based "AUR sinks" like for example, the Quafe Zero effect for 24 hours, while being happy with the bulk coming from vanity items (unsure how long that will last since they made them indestructible), the economy would be relatively fine.
Here's me hoping they're not very fond of that Greed is GoodÖ crap.
|
Valor D'eglise
Gallente
Red Cross Of Gallente Federation
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 03:09:00 -
[147]
Wow. Just wow.
An informative thread with almost no flaming and a constructive discussion? On my EVE forums?
I think I've seen it all now.
Just wanted to thank everyone who contributed in one way or another. Great read.
Now, please excuse me for interrupting you guys. Just go on.
|
Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Split Infinity.
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 03:22:00 -
[148]
Aurum is different because you can't purchase a shirt with PLEX. Duh people.
|
Nano J
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 03:23:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Valor D'eglise
Wow. Just wow.
An informative thread with almost no flaming and a constructive discussion? On my EVE forums?
I think I've seen it all now.
Just wanted to thank everyone who contributed in one way or another. Great read.
Now, please excuse me for interrupting you guys. Just go on.
YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!!
|
Telven Stareal
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 03:26:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Telven Stareal on 26/06/2011 03:26:57
Well, I could write a small book about this topic and my concerns ( not a real book). But just think of how high the price of plex is going to go.... Those folks who sell it want the isk for ships and such.. If they can get those things from the new store, they wont sell it on the market, which will lead to higher prices for that item... Then there is the possible (keyword folks, meaning not in stone) chance of the Ihe market being hit, because the plex sellers will be buying out of the new store and not the market.
I want to know what the plan is for this, will there then be SP for saleas well? Lots of questions, just no answers from the powers tha be.
I would suggest to invest in a plex throught the market and sit on it... I would be so bold as to even bet a plex hat the price of plex will jump by about 50 - 100 mil after the other content is added, I.e ships and such
|
Birdy Cephon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 05:16:00 -
[151]
This move by CCP greatly benefits PLEX sellers.
I'm waging a war. A war in me. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 05:36:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Bloodpetal on 26/06/2011 05:41:20
The major issue is you buy PLEX and then sink them into AUR which you can not convert back from. This creates a PLEX SINK.
On the other hand, if they made the system let you buy AUR by by the dollar, and then you used that money to buy PLEX from the NeX instead, you'd have an actual MicroTransaction system.
By creating an artificial way to sink PLEX, they're making it clear they want to empty plex from the system because a PLEX is essentially an advance loan from CCP that resides on the market. Until it gets consumed, players that use PLEX dont really need to wait for other players purchase any more game time - so there is an excess. I don't know how many people do so, but essentially there is enough people buying and selling PLEX that the market is well saturated.
Removing PLEX by using AUR as the sink, prices on PLEX will rise, which will cause more PLEX sellers to want to put their items on the market to make more value off of their PLEX > ISK Conversion, this will however negatively effect PLEX for gametime players because now there is pressure on them to do more ISK generation. This, however, doesn't actually act as an ISK sink, and will only actually increase EVE Inflation as the faucets get opened up, but the sinks remain somewhat static.
Back to the items you purchase with that AUR, the item comes directly from CCP with no work from the EVE economy. This direct money to item conversion leads to the players in the economy feeling left out of a potential income route as well as other ways to create ISK sinks by forcing economy.
Currently, when you sink PLEX into AUR, you are making a direct contract with CCP so that PLEX can now be used to purchase virtual goods directly from them. There is no way to convert this back to the PLEX system, so if you wish to take those PLEX and convert them into ISK you are forced to buy NeX items (clothing or otherwise) and resale them on the EVE market for ISK.
This permits players to generate interest in other markets than simply providing PLEX to players, however - it still corners them into essentially pricing at equivalent PLEX prices because only the least savvy and sloppy impulsive player will purchase those items without comparing to the equivalent PLEX cost. The exception to this comes to the point where you look at the cost of a pair of pants, such as 3600 AUR pants, which in reality cost 2 PLEX to purchase, with 3400 AUR left over after purchase. This basically strong arms anyone wanting a pair of pants to have to go down that path. This does give the "clothing retailer" the luxury of sinking multiple PLEX into clothes with the "convenience" cost of selling at higher than PLEX value for clothing, knowing that some people don't want to sink 2 PLEX into 1 set of pants, if that's all they want.
So there is profit to be made, but it does beg the question, how many people really want to go ahead and sink 400M ISK into a pair of pants.
The pricing is clever, but foolish for the items presented. Those items are over-priced, and also labeled "common". It's really quite absurd, regardless of the "vanity" factor.
So, the problem with AUR is multi-fold. It is intentionally designed to remove PLEX gametime from the system to promote PLEX sellers to increase interest by raising prices (hoping competition will bring them down) to get players to consume the "loan" that CCP has given them. I would have to look closely as to the amount of PLEX on the market at any given time, but it wouldn't surprise me that there is enough to fuel a large quantity of players' game time for long enough that CCP sees value in getting that game time consumed more quickly to promote more PLEX consumption and purchase.
Where I think they have failed is in realizing that if you got 10,000 players to purchase 1 PLEX to buy a myriad of cheaper clothing, you'd have had more success in doing this than having convinced 52 people to buy 4 PLEX per monocle.
|
Saul Perry
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 06:10:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Bloodpetal
Where I think they have failed is in realizing that if you got 10,000 players to purchase 1 PLEX to buy a myriad of cheaper clothing, you'd have had more success in doing this than having convinced 52 people to buy 4 PLEX per monocle.
Absolutely. As much as I am against MTs of this kind and as much as I think this is just a huge plex removal tool, I actually loaded my prepaid credit card the day Incarna was installing. I just couldn't resist thinking I'd probably buy a plex and crack it into AUR. Even if nothing appealed to me, I thought, it'd be fun to put items on the market. Then I saw the prices and put my credit card away.
I am sure my story is not unique
|
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 07:57:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Bloodpetal
By creating an artificial way to sink PLEX, they're making it clear they want to empty plex from the system because a PLEX is essentially an advance loan from CCP that resides on the market.
Currently, when you sink PLEX into AUR, you are making a direct contract with CCP so that PLEX can now be used to purchase virtual goods directly from them. There is no way to convert this back to the PLEX system, so if you wish to take those PLEX and convert them into ISK you are forced to buy NeX items (clothing or otherwise) and resale them on the EVE market for ISK.
Where I think they have failed is in realizing that if you got 10,000 players to purchase 1 PLEX to buy a myriad of cheaper clothing, you'd have had more success in doing this than having convinced
Very good post.
It is indeed my belief that the primary target of CCP is to remove their "loans" (e.g. PLEX) from the game. There's tens of thousands (if not more) of them around in rich players stashes and financially, they are a liability. Especially for a company as CCP that needs a lot of invester's money to finance their WoD and DUST projects.
Originally by: Kahza Kado
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Personally I wouldn't buy ships or other stuff but I'd definitely buy SP for AUR if CCP makes it available.
After 30 million SP I'm a bit fed up with waiting for skills because I still can't fly or fit those ships.
Then you would be getting the unfair advantage the rest of us don't have or can't afford. That right there is what pay-to-win is all about. Where is the satisfaction of accomplishment? I mean really why play the game if you can immediately buy your way to the top? Heck.. Do you think it's fair for a football team to be able to buy the Superbowl Trophy? Or a hockey team just skip the playoffs and buy the Stanley Cup? I am not flaming you, really I am not.. I am just trying to understand that mentality.
If I buy Estel Arador's character from the bazaar I am also getting the unfair advantage the rest of us don't have or can't afford.
Personally I don't get a "satisfaction of accomplishment" when my skills finish. Accomplishment in my view has to do with doing something, not adding a skill to a queue and wait. And wait. And wait. So now I finished Amarr Cruiser V. What did I do to accomplish this? Nothing!
"Buy your way to the top"? The thing is that you can't "win" EVE. There is no "top". There's things like teamwork, organisation, player skill, you still can't buy that. You just buy versatility and flexibility, nothing more, nothing less. If perfect skills and big ships would mean "iwin" you're basically saying EVE is nothing more than a gear grind.
|
Malachor Jankor
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 19:45:00 -
[155]
Jennifer your last points are very good and are my main concern about the ability to use RL money to buy in game items.
I don't care as much about people having advantages because I think that this can be offset by player skill and other factors. What I do care about is that the experience is diminished because a player that just buys everything with RL cash doesn't have that same sense of accomplishment and satisfaction and gets bored quickly. If they are bored they don't log back on and in the long run this is obviously bad for the game.
I know the first time I played EVE a few years ago someone offered me 200 million ISK if I would sign up using him as my contact or whatever so he would get free game time. I thought it was a great deal. I was already planning on signing up and he would get a free month of game time or whatever. The free ISK was a bonus.
Except that once I got that free ISK I just ran around buying everything I wanted and got bored in about 2 days and canceled my account fairly quickly. That is why I have stayed away from purchasing a PLEX. It is tempting. All I would need is one and I would be set for a while. But when I buy my first cruiser I want to feel like I've actually earned it.
|
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 22:36:00 -
[156]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 26/06/2011 22:39:48
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 26/06/2011 22:38:36
Originally by: Malachor Jankor
Jennifer your last points are very good and are my main concern about the ability to use RL money to buy in game items.
I know the first time I played EVE a few years ago someone offered me 200 million ISK if I would sign up using him as my contact or whatever so he would get free game time. I thought it was a great deal. I was already planning on signing up and he would get a free month of game time or whatever. The free ISK was a bonus.
Except that once I got that free ISK I just ran around buying everything I wanted and got bored in about 2 days and canceled my account fairly quickly. That is why I have stayed away from purchasing a PLEX. It is tempting. All I would need is one and I would be set for a while. But when I buy my first cruiser I want to feel like I've actually earned it.
For me it was the exact opposite: after a few months I already made many billions from missioning and trading. I bought all the pretty ships I wanted. It felt like an accomplishment.
And now, a year later at 30+ million SP, I still can't decently fly and fit most of them (even though it's all just subcaps) - all because of silly artificial crippling SP limitations. For me it would have been much better if ISK was harder to get but SP a lot easier.
|
Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 11:32:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Zelphinine
MTs means someone is spending money. Full stop.
Well, the story doesn't actually come to a full stop there. Someone is indeed spending money... on a monicole. lol. Does this really effect the game market in any way, shape or form? Im pretty sure it doesn't, unless the monicole actually DOES give you superior visual acuity! in which case, we should be angry at ccp for not releasing full patch notes...
|
RougeOperator
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 11:35:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Originally by: Zelphinine
MTs means someone is spending money. Full stop.
Well, the story doesn't actually come to a full stop there. Someone is indeed spending money... on a monicole. lol. Does this really effect the game market in any way, shape or form? Im pretty sure it doesn't, unless the monicole actually DOES give you superior visual acuity! in which case, we should be angry at ccp for not releasing full patch notes...
So you missed the leaked newsletter and Email i take it.
Why are you all so ignorant.
|
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:49:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Whitehound on 27/06/2011 12:52:14
Originally by: Llambda
Originally by: Whitehound
The NEX introduces new items, which add nothing to the game but an ISK sink.
This is wrong. An ISK sink is something that removes ISK from the game. NeX does not remove ISK from the game. Purchases made on the NeX do not alter the sum total amount of ISK in the money supply.
Re-sales of the new items on the ISK market will also not remove ISK from the game (excepting taxes and broker fees), but will merely move ISK between players.
It becomes an ISK sink when you consider the fact that vanity items are destructible.
ISK turns into PLEX, turns into Aurum, turns into vanity item, item gets destroyed eventually.
--
|
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 12:53:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Whitehound
It becomes an ISK sink when you consider the fact that vanity items are destructible.
No ISK is consumed in the creation of the items, nor is ISK consumed when they are destroyed, so no, it doesn't.
The NeX is not an ISK sink ù it's a PLEX sink.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Uuali
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:03:00 -
[161]
What part of "Game changing mechanics" don't you understand. PLEX is still a component of a player driven mechanic. MT will change that to a simple, direct sale via CCP. The implications go far beyond the notion of buy a bigger gun, win game.
The more an MT based mechanic is introduced to the game the less CCP actually has to develop anything other than more items. The game will become more about just buying items to get ahead than to enjoy new improved features.
I buy PLEX. I don't have the time or energy to grind in this game to get stuff. But that PLEX goes for a lot of different things and actually helps me to get up to par with the people who don't want to spend real money but have the same stuff nonetheless. And I'm buying stuff that other players made and are also benefiting from. These items are far more reasonably priced than what CCP has shown they are comfortable with charging for MT stuff.
It is more about what people don't want to spend money on than what they have to in order to play the game. MT will increasingly force a must pay system and the player economy (i.e. trading, manufacturing) will become merely fluff with no real significants.
|
Maplestone
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:09:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Maplestone on 27/06/2011 13:11:42
All this talk about vanity/non-vanity is just distracting the discussion. Ignore for a moment whether we're talking about a monacle or a carrier - just focus on why they cost the same amount of PLEX to buy.
A PLEX-funded alt can do all the "work" of gathering materials and blueprints and research and taking the time to complete the manufacturing. Or that PLEX can be turned directly into a product at the NEX.
Industry is the sand in the sandbox. NEX paves over the playground.
|
Tosser Galore
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:13:00 -
[163]
Do the OP even know exactly how complex the procuction chain in T3 is?
|
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:20:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Whitehound
It becomes an ISK sink when you consider the fact that vanity items are destructible.
No ISK is consumed in the creation of the items, nor is ISK consumed when they are destroyed, so no, it doesn't.
The NeX is not an ISK sink ù it's a PLEX sink.
I am telling you, creep. It is an ISK sink. My ISKs are gone. I do not care if my ISKs come back through the butt holes of agents or NPC bounties.
--
|
Nerriana
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 13:55:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Whitehound
It becomes an ISK sink when you consider the fact that vanity items are destructible.
No ISK is consumed in the creation of the items, nor is ISK consumed when they are destroyed, so no, it doesn't.
The NeX is not an ISK sink ù it's a PLEX sink.
I am telling you, creep. It is an ISK sink. My ISKs are gone. I do not care if my ISKs come back through the butt holes of agents or NPC bounties.
Then you cannot see the big picture.
CCP is not selling PLEX for ISK. Players are gathering the ISK by missioning, etc. and exchanging it to PLEX that someone else paid CCP for and that aforementioned someone else now has the ISK you paid. The ISK remains in circulation as the PLEX seller invests it into other stuff at market. Only stuff bought from NPC merchants (CONCORD sov expenses, blueprint originals, loyalty store, etc.) actually remove ISK from economy. Otherwise it's simply circulating around.
The Price of PLEX is determined by the market, ie. people interested in buying or selling tokens for 1 month of game time. Not CCP (although that offhand comment from CCP EyjoG about stabilizing the PLEX market if deemed necessary sounds bit ...worrisome).
It's understandable that CCP might find un-liquidated PLEX a liability, after all it represents real-world gametime and could be an uncharted territory with real-world legal issues if CCP itself gets bought/sold/liquidated/whatever. In worst case, CCP might be obligated to pay real-world cash back for those tokens or get tangled up into expensive litigation if it eg. closes up EvE servers.
|
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 14:16:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Nerriana
Then you cannot see the big picture.
I can see the "big picture", but I can also see how the thoughts in your head are spinning around like little turds in a toilet bowl.
So no matter how often you spin your thoughts, it remains a fact that you can buy PLEX for ISKs. If these ISKs disappear as taxes, fees or first travel through the hands of other players before they do, is of no consequence to me.
I do understand that the little details all present little problems to you, but they do not do to me. 
--
|
Akira Mio
Gallente
Colonial Enterprises Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 14:41:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Nerriana
Then you cannot see the big picture.
I can see the "big picture", but I can also see how the thoughts in your head are spinning around like little turds in a toilet bowl.
So no matter how often you spin your thoughts, it remains a fact that you can buy PLEX for ISKs. If these ISKs disappear as taxes, fees or first travel through the hands of other players before they do, is of no consequence to me.
I do understand that the little details all present little problems to you, but they do not do to me.
So you're saying an ISK sink is something that removes ISK from your wallet, but not the economy?
|
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 14:58:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Akira Mio
So you're saying an ISK sink is something that removes ISK from your wallet, but not the economy?
I am saying there is no difference between the two.
All you can care about in the end is your own wallet. If the ISKs disappear from your wallet then it is bad. If they reappear then it is good.
Are you saying it makes a difference to you where the ISKs have been while they are gone?
--
|
Akira Mio
Gallente
Colonial Enterprises Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:05:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Whitehound
Are you saying it makes a difference to you where the ISKs have been while they are gone?
Well, yes. The whole purpose of ISK sinks and faucets is to try and balance the economy. It cannot be an ISK sink if the ISK remains in the economy.
You are basically saying that buying things off the market is an ISK sink, as the money is removed from your wallet.
|
Kelvandar
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:05:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Uuali
What part of "Game changing mechanics" don't you understand. PLEX is still a component of a player driven mechanic. MT will change that to a simple, direct sale via CCP. The implications go far beyond the notion of buy a bigger gun, win game.
The more an MT based mechanic is introduced to the game the less CCP actually has to develop anything other than more items. The game will become more about just buying items to get ahead than to enjoy new improved features.
I buy PLEX. I don't have the time or energy to grind in this game to get stuff. But that PLEX goes for a lot of different things and actually helps me to get up to par with the people who don't want to spend real money but have the same stuff nonetheless. And I'm buying stuff that other players made and are also benefiting from. These items are far more reasonably priced than what CCP has shown they are comfortable with charging for MT stuff.
It is more about what people don't want to spend money on than what they have to in order to play the game. MT will increasingly force a must pay system and the player economy (i.e. trading, manufacturing) will become merely fluff with no real significants.
Very good points.
Eventually cheaper items will appear and the current NeX prices will come down. Right now they're bleeding the Plex supply very slowly, content with just building the infrastructure to go down this road.
I suspect thats one of the reasons Aurum has been implemented in the way it has. Now CCP have the option to switch over to a completely free to play model at some point in the future.
Tinfoil hat? Perhaps. But consider this:
1) Prior to June 21st the only thing that made Plex valuable was either conversion to game time or donations to "Plex for Good". Now its convertible into another type of currency. If the conversion to gametime were ever removed due to free to play, plex would still have in-game value, and any outstanding stockpiles of Plex could still be redeemed for something useful in-game.
2) CCP would have made more money from Aurum if they had made it directly purchasable by credit card on their web site. Instead they've chosen to use it (in part) to reduce the stockpile of Plex, which has already been paid for and which gives CCP no new revenue.
I don't like the idea, and I'm not saying that it is going to happen. But CCP now have that option available which was not available prior to Incarna (at least with respect to the "what to do with Plex" dilemma).
|
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:10:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Whitehound on 27/06/2011 15:11:09
Originally by: Akira Mio
Originally by: Whitehound
Are you saying it makes a difference to you where the ISKs have been while they are gone?
Well, yes. The whole purpose of ISK sinks and faucets is to try and balance the economy. It cannot be an ISK sink if the ISK remains in the economy.
You are basically saying that buying things off the market is an ISK sink, as the money is removed from your wallet.
And you are saying that taxes and fees are an ISK sink even when you know they return through agents and bounties. So either are ISK sinks, or none is.
The difference may be that you waste too much time on thinking where your losses went instead of winning some new ISKs.
--
|
Hohepa Marstolt
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:14:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Tla Atij
Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 00:04:55
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 25/06/2011 23:59:30
Originally by: Tla Atij
Will AUR items circumvent the economy if they are BPCs? BPCs still support miners, traders, haulers, manufacturers, industry in general, do they not?
Yes. You're still using $$ to create value out of nowhere.
If you take a scorp (or the equivalent minerals) and turn it into an IW Scorp, you have added value to the market that only exists because you've paid cash for it. The miners, traders etc. are still involved, but that extra value is only there because of that $$.
There is no extra value. My PLEX, instead of being sold on the market for 400 mil, was transformed into a BPC worth 400 mil. Where is the extra value from?
In both cases I have something worth 400 mil ISK.
Really? you don't get this?
WHERE DID 400 mil isk come from? where did the BPO come from.
come on, work it out.
|
Slayer Slewy
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:18:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Hohepa Marstolt
Originally by: Tla Atij
Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 00:04:55
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 25/06/2011 23:59:30
Originally by: Tla Atij
Will AUR items circumvent the economy if they are BPCs? BPCs still support miners, traders, haulers, manufacturers, industry in general, do they not?
Yes. You're still using $$ to create value out of nowhere.
If you take a scorp (or the equivalent minerals) and turn it into an IW Scorp, you have added value to the market that only exists because you've paid cash for it. The miners, traders etc. are still involved, but that extra value is only there because of that $$.
There is no extra value. My PLEX, instead of being sold on the market for 400 mil, was transformed into a BPC worth 400 mil. Where is the extra value from?
In both cases I have something worth 400 mil ISK.
Really? you don't get this?
WHERE DID 400 mil isk come from? where did the BPO come from.
come on, work it out.
The 400m ISK worth of value comes from your real life currency. Whether it manifests itself in the form of a PLEX or a BPO in the economy is details. The added value to the economy is the same. People who claim PLEX is "neutral" don't seem to grasp the concept of value itself.
|
Akira Mio
Gallente
Colonial Enterprises Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:18:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 27/06/2011 15:11:09
Originally by: Akira Mio
Originally by: Whitehound
Are you saying it makes a difference to you where the ISKs have been while they are gone?
Well, yes. The whole purpose of ISK sinks and faucets is to try and balance the economy. It cannot be an ISK sink if the ISK remains in the economy.
You are basically saying that buying things off the market is an ISK sink, as the money is removed from your wallet.
And you are saying that taxes and fees are an ISK sink even when you know they return through agents and bounties. So either are ISK sinks, or none is.
The difference may be that you waste too much time on thinking where your losses went instead of winning some new ISKs.
Not all all, actually. I'm just trying to understand how you see converting PLEX's as an ISK sink, but if you consider any money leaving you wallet as a sink, then I guess that explains it.
It's just that when people talk about ISK sinks and faucets, they are talking about the economy; so really you guys have been arguing two different things entirely.
|
Scarlet des Loupes
Gallente
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:22:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Scarlet des Loupes on 27/06/2011 15:27:50
Originally by: Tippia
But ok. Let's start at the actual beginning.
Start:. Economy holds your 400M ISK.
1. Other guy buys a 30d/3,500 AUR call option (PLEX) for $17.50 and puts it on the market.
ù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option.
2. You trade 400M ISK for the PLEX..
ù Economy still holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option.
3. You exercise the 3,500 AUR call option.
ù Economy holds 400M ISK and 3,500 AUR ← this is where the value addition happens.
4. You exchange 3,500 AUR for a BPC. This BPC is valued at 400M ISK because that's how much you have to trade to get the call option.
ù Economy holds 400M ISK and 400M-ISK BPC.
5. [the rest of it happens]
The important bit to study here is #3. Why does the value add happen there? Because it is an option, and you chose the one that adds value to the market. The other option had been to call in the 30d, at which point the PLEX had exited the economy and we'd be back at the starting position of the economy only containing 400M ISK.
But .. shouldn¦t step 1 be:
1. Other guy buys a 30d/3,500 AUR call option (PLEX) for $17.50 and puts it on the market.
ù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option. This call option is valued at 400M ISK because that's how much you have to trade to get the call option. ← this is where the value addition happens.
I honestly don't see how adding a call option worth 400m is different from adding a
BPC worth 400m to the game ...
|
Tobiaz
Spacerats
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:23:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Whitehound
It becomes an ISK sink when you consider the fact that vanity items are destructible.
No ISK is consumed in the creation of the items, nor is ISK consumed when they are destroyed, so no, it doesn't.
The NeX is not an ISK sink ù it's a PLEX sink.
I am telling you, creep. It is an ISK sink. My ISKs are gone. I do not care if my ISKs come back through the butt holes of agents or NPC bounties.
No they are not gone. The ISK are in the pocket of another player, thus staying in the economy. A sink mean it is in the pocket of an NPC, and so gone from the game since the NPC don't do accounting.
It would be an ISK sink if you bought the PLEX from NPC, though ofcourse in that case CCP would make no money off it.
+ 1500 votes on MT in EVE | NO 79.03% | YES 5.02% | COSMETIC ONLY 11.23% | OTHER 4.73% |
Maduin Ardens
Aurelius Federation
Eternal Evocations
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:26:00 -
[177]
In the vast uprising and mob mentality that went on from a relatively vocal minority, the actual argument itself has been lost it seems.
The real root of the problem is not that you can buy into ships and goods in the game to get an edge of others who cannot afford to spend real life ISKies on shiny new toys, it is the source of those goods.
If CCP were to start introducing ships, equipment, and etc. into the game, that can be reprocessed into minerals, or simply have a negative impact on existing items in the game, then the whole premise of EVE Online suddenly goes away. The game is supposed to be player driven, but if players are not creating the goods to drive the market index, then CCP is doing so instead.
This is why I think all this uproar over MT is highly speculative and probably based more on irrational fear than anything.
The chances of CCP introducing goods en masse into the player market that disrupt or deter from said market, are pretty slim if you ask me.
The chances of them introducing fancypants ship models and confetti ammo (as opposed to 'gold ammo') that have the same stats as their respective counterparts, but are visual fluff, are pretty high.
So... I think yes, MT is coming no matter what we say/do, but MT that has a direct impact on the player driven economy? Probably not a chance. The likelihood that CCP would even have the cajones to dare attempt micromanaging the ingame economy themselves is pretty slim to none IMO. That is probably the last thing on their minds at this point, unless of course, they simply do not care, but we would only know that once the actual time came, and the REAL cat was out of the bag.
|
Slayer Slewy
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:36:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Maduin Ardens
In the vast uprising and mob mentality that went on from a relatively vocal minority, the actual argument itself has been lost it seems.
The real root of the problem is not that you can buy into ships and goods in the game to get an edge of others who cannot afford to spend real life ISKies on shiny new toys, it is the source of those goods.
If CCP were to start introducing ships, equipment, and etc. into the game, that can be reprocessed into minerals, or simply have a negative impact on existing items in the game, then the whole premise of EVE Online suddenly goes away. The game is supposed to be player driven, but if players are not creating the goods to drive the market index, then CCP is doing so instead.
Technically, merely offering an alternative method for creating the same goods in the market isn't making the gameplay "CCP driven". Consider that any MT item is still purchased by a player, not CCP. The act of injecting that item and therefore its value into the economy is still 100% player driven.
|
Tobiaz
Spacerats
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:36:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 27/06/2011 15:11:09
Originally by: Akira Mio
Originally by: Whitehound
Are you saying it makes a difference to you where the ISKs have been while they are gone?
Well, yes. The whole purpose of ISK sinks and faucets is to try and balance the economy. It cannot be an ISK sink if the ISK remains in the economy.
You are basically saying that buying things off the market is an ISK sink, as the money is removed from your wallet.
And you are saying that taxes and fees are an ISK sink even when you know they return through agents and bounties. So either are ISK sinks, or none is.
The difference may be that you waste too much time on thinking where your losses went instead of winning some new ISKs.
Taxes and fees are NOT LINKED to agents and bounties. There is no NPC checkbook balancing them out against each other.
The whole problem of sinks and faucets is that there is simply too much bare ISK in the hands of the players and that is because the NPC are giving our way more ISK to players then they are receiving back.
They are like a bank printing money to pay for their expenses. And that goes ok as long as the growth of bare money is linear to the growth of the population. But it isn't.
The thing is changing bounties to LP for instance would fix this a lot. A surplus of LP would just lower the value of the items you can swap them for, but it doesn't mess with the amount of the the ISK in the economy. FW is a good example of this in effect.
Interestingly enough, in the first year of EVE, the situation was completely the other war around. There wasn't enough ISK in the economy. Because of that a lot of the ship-trades back then were BYOM. I can't say exactly when it really started to change, but it had stabilized by the time T2 production kicked in. The moneysupply exploded by the time L4 agents became popular. CCP really dropped the ball there.
+ 1500 votes on MT in EVE | NO 79.03% | YES 5.02% | COSMETIC ONLY 11.23% | OTHER 4.73% |
Minsc
Gallente
Alpha Empire
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:36:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Whitehound
Edited by: Whitehound on 27/06/2011 15:11:09
Originally by: Akira Mio
Originally by: Whitehound
Are you saying it makes a difference to you where the ISKs have been while they are gone?
Well, yes. The whole purpose of ISK sinks and faucets is to try and balance the economy. It cannot be an ISK sink if the ISK remains in the economy.
You are basically saying that buying things off the market is an ISK sink, as the money is removed from your wallet.
And you are saying that taxes and fees are an ISK sink even when you know they return through agents and bounties. So either are ISK sinks, or none is.
The difference may be that you waste too much time on thinking where your losses went instead of winning some new ISKs.
The isk that leaves the economy through taxes or other npc means is not the same isk that comes back into the economy, it's new isk. The amount of isk coming or going from your wallet is irrelevant, the amount of isk coming and going for the economy as a whole is all that matters. Plex sales do not cause isk to leave the economy.
|
Maduin Ardens
Aurelius Federation
Eternal Evocations
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 15:42:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Maduin Ardens on 27/06/2011 15:51:10
Originally by: Slayer Slewy
Technically, merely offering an alternative method for creating the same goods in the market isn't making the gameplay "CCP driven". Consider that any MT item is still purchased by a player, not CCP. The act of injecting that item and therefore its value into the economy is still 100% player driven.
Yes, but imagine, even if the ships/etc. could not be reprocessed...
Player A wants an Ishtar.
Player B manufactures one for 100MIL, marks it up to 125MIL, and places it on the market.
CCP offers Noble Ishtar with same stats but different paint job and/or hull for 125MIL.
Trouble ^
Edit: Now the running theory on this is that the NEX will require you exchange a ship of equal value through the shop in order to get the new fancypants ship...
BUT they said that they are going to first release a new Scorpion hull through the NEX, without this 'feature', i.e. it will be created out of thin air and inserted into the game economy, simply because they have not completed the coding for the NEX as of yet... so this raised an immediate red flag with industrialists, who cried foul that CCP would continue releasing ships to the game without requiring the players exchange ships created by other players in the process, to keep the player driven economy intact.
This is where the initial uproar started if you were paying really close attention ^
|
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 17:16:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Tobiaz
No they are not gone.
Yes. They are not in my wallet, stupid. It makes no difference where they have gone to. They are gone. Gone as in "not here any more".
--
|
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 17:22:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Tobiaz
Taxes and fees are NOT LINKED to agents and bounties.
Yes they are. They are monitored and controlled by CCP and it links them together.
This will make your brain explode, because you cannot stop spinning your thoughts.
--
|
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.06.27 17:24:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Minsc
The isk that leaves the economy through taxes or other npc means is not the same isk that comes back into the economy, it's new isk. The amount of isk coming or going from your wallet is irrelevant, the amount of isk coming and going for the economy as a whole is all that matters. Plex sales do not cause isk to leave the economy.
There is no new and old ISKs.
Is there a date on them when they were printed like on coins? I have not seen any yet.
And on goes the spinning of your thoughts. Let us spin them some more!
--
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 :: [one page] |